WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.500 Welcome back to the Deep Dive. Today we are walking 00:00:02.500 --> 00:00:04.740 into a room that I think a lot of people are 00:00:04.740 --> 00:00:09.160 actually terrified to enter. Yeah. We're talking 00:00:09.160 --> 00:00:11.119 about a phenomenon that is happening behind closed 00:00:11.119 --> 00:00:14.039 doors, often in the nicest neighborhoods, involving 00:00:14.039 --> 00:00:16.399 people who look, for all intents and purposes, 00:00:16.600 --> 00:00:18.839 like the perfect couple. It's the topic that 00:00:18.839 --> 00:00:20.739 everyone thinks they understand until they actually 00:00:20.739 --> 00:00:23.839 look at the mechanics. We assume we know what 00:00:23.839 --> 00:00:25.699 abuse looks like. We have this, you know, this 00:00:25.699 --> 00:00:27.760 script in our heads. Right. We have the cinematic 00:00:27.760 --> 00:00:30.730 version, a shout. The throne plate, a bruise, 00:00:30.750 --> 00:00:33.590 the visible scars. The things you can point to, 00:00:33.630 --> 00:00:35.689 the things you can take a picture of. Exactly. 00:00:36.149 --> 00:00:38.509 But the stack of research we have on the desk 00:00:38.509 --> 00:00:41.429 today, and it's a fascinating stack, ranging 00:00:41.429 --> 00:00:45.329 from psychological frameworks of Harriet B. Breaker 00:00:45.329 --> 00:00:48.750 to landmark legislation from the UK and Connecticut, 00:00:48.969 --> 00:00:51.670 it paints a completely different picture. A much 00:00:51.670 --> 00:00:53.810 more insidious picture, frankly. A much quieter 00:00:53.810 --> 00:00:57.030 one. In many ways. We are talking about the invisible 00:00:57.030 --> 00:00:59.609 chains. We are talking about controlling behavior. 00:00:59.890 --> 00:01:02.609 And just to be clear right off the top, I don't 00:01:02.609 --> 00:01:05.390 mean someone being, like, annoying about which 00:01:05.390 --> 00:01:07.909 restaurant to pick for date night or hogging 00:01:07.909 --> 00:01:09.750 the remote. No, no, this is not about peptives. 00:01:09.890 --> 00:01:12.430 Not at all. I mean a systematic architectural 00:01:12.430 --> 00:01:15.510 design to strip another human being of their 00:01:15.510 --> 00:01:18.200 autonomy. That word architectural is really the 00:01:18.200 --> 00:01:20.659 key to this entire deep dive. This isn't accidental. 00:01:20.900 --> 00:01:23.200 It's not just someone having a bad temper or 00:01:23.200 --> 00:01:26.459 being passionate. It is a structure. It's a cage 00:01:26.459 --> 00:01:29.980 built bar by bar, often so slowly that the person 00:01:29.980 --> 00:01:32.340 inside doesn't even realize they're being imprisoned. 00:01:32.599 --> 00:01:35.680 So here is our mission. We are going to deconstruct 00:01:35.680 --> 00:01:37.439 that structure. We need to understand the toolkit. 00:01:37.700 --> 00:01:40.700 How does someone actually hack into another person's 00:01:40.700 --> 00:01:43.340 psychology to gain that kind of control? But 00:01:43.340 --> 00:01:46.260 how? Then we need to look at who the personality 00:01:46.260 --> 00:01:48.599 profile is involved because the data there is 00:01:48.599 --> 00:01:51.239 startling. And finally, we need to look at the 00:01:51.239 --> 00:01:53.200 legal revolution that is happening right now 00:01:53.200 --> 00:01:56.159 where the law is finally catching up to the reality 00:01:56.159 --> 00:01:58.799 that you could destroy a person without ever 00:01:58.799 --> 00:02:01.480 laying a finger on them. And that legal shift 00:02:01.480 --> 00:02:04.260 is fascinating. But you really can't understand 00:02:04.260 --> 00:02:06.819 the law until you understand the mind of the 00:02:06.819 --> 00:02:10.080 controller. You have to understand the why. Okay, 00:02:10.120 --> 00:02:12.379 let's start there, the psychology. We have the 00:02:12.379 --> 00:02:14.319 breaker list of manipulation tactics. We have 00:02:14.319 --> 00:02:17.099 the cluster B personality profiles. But before 00:02:17.099 --> 00:02:19.340 we get into the weeds of the how, I want to hit 00:02:19.340 --> 00:02:21.120 on something from a study you highlighted in 00:02:21.120 --> 00:02:24.419 the notes. Graham, Kevin and Archer from 2008. 00:02:24.699 --> 00:02:28.099 The motivation study. Yes, this is crucial because 00:02:28.099 --> 00:02:30.379 it flips the common narrative on its head. It 00:02:30.379 --> 00:02:33.500 really does. Because my assumption. and I think 00:02:33.500 --> 00:02:35.979 the assumption of most listeners, is that controlling 00:02:35.979 --> 00:02:38.780 people are just angry. They have anger management 00:02:38.780 --> 00:02:41.800 issues. They snap. They lose it. That is the 00:02:41.800 --> 00:02:43.659 common narrative. He just lost control. She just 00:02:43.659 --> 00:02:46.560 saw red. We tend to view abuse as a failure of 00:02:46.560 --> 00:02:50.740 regulation. But the data actually suggests something 00:02:50.740 --> 00:02:53.300 else entirely. Which is? The research suggests 00:02:53.300 --> 00:02:56.020 that controlling behavior is rarely about a loss 00:02:56.020 --> 00:02:58.719 of control. It is about the enjoyment of exercising 00:02:58.719 --> 00:03:00.780 power. Wait, say that again. It's about enjoyment. 00:03:01.580 --> 00:03:04.819 Precisely. It's gratification. The abuser isn't 00:03:04.819 --> 00:03:06.800 necessarily lashing out because they are out 00:03:06.800 --> 00:03:09.400 of their mind with rage. They are utilizing tactics 00:03:09.400 --> 00:03:12.159 like intimidation or coercion because it gets 00:03:12.159 --> 00:03:14.479 them something. It works. It works. It gets them 00:03:14.479 --> 00:03:17.500 compliance. It gets them ownership of the environment, 00:03:17.639 --> 00:03:19.919 of the relationship, of the other person. So 00:03:19.919 --> 00:03:23.259 it's not a bug. It's a feature. They aren't suffering 00:03:23.259 --> 00:03:26.400 from a lack of control. They are reveling. In 00:03:26.400 --> 00:03:28.280 the application of it. That's a perfect way to 00:03:28.280 --> 00:03:30.340 put it. The control itself is the goal. That 00:03:30.340 --> 00:03:33.659 is significantly darker. It really is. It changes 00:03:33.659 --> 00:03:36.419 it from I need help managing my emotions to. 00:03:37.129 --> 00:03:39.909 I am satisfying a need to dominate. It is darker. 00:03:40.110 --> 00:03:42.530 And here is the insight from Graham, Kevin and 00:03:42.530 --> 00:03:44.590 Archer that usually stops people in their tracks. 00:03:44.969 --> 00:03:47.530 We tend to separate controlling partners from 00:03:47.530 --> 00:03:49.930 violent partners. We put them in different boxes. 00:03:50.310 --> 00:03:53.330 Sure. We say, oh, he's just jealous and bossy. 00:03:53.349 --> 00:03:55.490 He checks my texts, but he's not violent. He's 00:03:55.490 --> 00:03:57.689 never hit me. Right. But the research says that 00:03:57.689 --> 00:04:00.050 is a false distinction. Controlling behavior 00:04:00.050 --> 00:04:02.849 is actually a major predictor of physical aggression. 00:04:03.169 --> 00:04:05.689 It's the canary in the coal mine. It's the foundational 00:04:05.689 --> 00:04:09.409 mindset. Think about it. If I feel entitled to 00:04:09.409 --> 00:04:12.030 control who you talk to, what you wear, and what 00:04:12.030 --> 00:04:15.349 you think, the step to controlling your physical 00:04:15.349 --> 00:04:18.350 body with violence is a very small step. It's 00:04:18.350 --> 00:04:20.170 not a different category. It's just a graduation, 00:04:20.509 --> 00:04:23.189 an escalation of the same core belief. I have 00:04:23.189 --> 00:04:25.449 the right to control you. That sets the stakes. 00:04:25.670 --> 00:04:27.449 I mean, that really puts everything in perspective. 00:04:27.550 --> 00:04:30.170 This isn't just about bad relationships or toxic 00:04:30.170 --> 00:04:33.160 dynamics. This is about... A Pathway to Violence. 00:04:33.459 --> 00:04:36.240 And a very clear and well -documented one. So 00:04:36.240 --> 00:04:37.879 let's open up the toolkit. Section one of our 00:04:37.879 --> 00:04:40.860 stack is the Mechanics of Control. How does this 00:04:40.860 --> 00:04:43.579 actually work day to day? We are leaning heavily 00:04:43.579 --> 00:04:46.319 here on the work of Harriet B. Breaker. She wrote 00:04:46.319 --> 00:04:50.459 extensively on manipulation and she really systematized 00:04:50.459 --> 00:04:52.699 how manipulators operate. She laid out the playbook. 00:04:52.920 --> 00:04:54.480 What I found interesting about her breakdown 00:04:54.480 --> 00:04:57.100 is that it starts with things that on the surface 00:04:57.100 --> 00:04:59.800 don't look like abuse at all. Not at all. It 00:04:59.800 --> 00:05:02.160 actually starts with kindness. Right. Think about 00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:05.079 it logically. If an abuser started the relationship 00:05:05.079 --> 00:05:07.600 by screaming at you and banning you from seeing 00:05:07.600 --> 00:05:10.139 your mom on the first date, what would you do? 00:05:10.360 --> 00:05:12.199 I'd fake a phone call and run out the back door. 00:05:12.360 --> 00:05:15.139 Game over. Exactly. You'd leave. So they don't 00:05:15.139 --> 00:05:17.379 use a stick, not at first. They use a carrot. 00:05:17.459 --> 00:05:20.319 A very, very appealing carrot. Breaker calls 00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:23.220 this positive reinforcement. Which is a term 00:05:23.220 --> 00:05:25.910 I usually associate with dog training. or raising 00:05:25.910 --> 00:05:28.370 toddlers. You give a treat when they sit. It's 00:05:28.370 --> 00:05:31.629 the exact same behavioral principle. You reward 00:05:31.629 --> 00:05:34.629 the behavior you want. In a relationship context, 00:05:34.949 --> 00:05:37.449 this manifests as what we now clinically call 00:05:37.449 --> 00:05:40.889 love bombing. I see that term on TikTok and Instagram 00:05:40.889 --> 00:05:43.209 constantly. It's become a bit of a buzzword. 00:05:43.329 --> 00:05:46.029 But clinically, what is it? Because isn't falling 00:05:46.029 --> 00:05:48.889 in love supposed to be intense? How do you tell 00:05:48.889 --> 00:05:51.209 the difference between a great romance and a 00:05:51.209 --> 00:05:53.569 trap? That is the hardest distinction to make 00:05:53.569 --> 00:05:55.870 when you are in it. It's almost impossible sometimes. 00:05:56.149 --> 00:05:58.069 There is intense and then there is overwhelming. 00:05:58.490 --> 00:06:01.509 Love bombing is a bombardment of affection, praise, 00:06:01.790 --> 00:06:04.990 gifts, and attention very early on. So it's about 00:06:04.990 --> 00:06:08.370 the speed and the volume. Speed, volume, and 00:06:08.370 --> 00:06:10.470 this is the key difference between romance and 00:06:10.470 --> 00:06:14.009 love bombing. The agenda. The agenda being ingratiation. 00:06:14.189 --> 00:06:17.639 Yes. It's setting the hook. The source material 00:06:17.639 --> 00:06:19.680 explains that this creates a profound desire 00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:23.209 in the victim to please the controller. If I 00:06:23.209 --> 00:06:25.649 treat you like royalty for three weeks, I mean, 00:06:25.670 --> 00:06:27.290 I'm guessing your coffee order before you say 00:06:27.290 --> 00:06:29.449 it, I'm sending flowers to your work. I'm telling 00:06:29.449 --> 00:06:31.250 you, you're the smartest, most beautiful person 00:06:31.250 --> 00:06:33.769 I've ever met. You feel seen. You feel incredibly 00:06:33.769 --> 00:06:36.430 validated. Profoundly seen. And you start to 00:06:36.430 --> 00:06:39.089 think, wow, this person really gets me. But what's 00:06:39.089 --> 00:06:41.050 really happening is that they are mirroring you. 00:06:41.149 --> 00:06:43.610 They're studying you and reflecting back the 00:06:43.610 --> 00:06:46.850 person you want to be. And I feel indebted. There 00:06:46.850 --> 00:06:49.050 is a reciprocity rule in human nature. If you 00:06:49.050 --> 00:06:51.569 give me that much, I feel like I owe you. I feel 00:06:51.569 --> 00:06:54.410 a need to give back. Consciously or unconsciously, 00:06:54.410 --> 00:06:57.230 yes. You want to keep that version of me alive. 00:06:57.290 --> 00:07:00.310 You want that high to continue. You have been 00:07:00.310 --> 00:07:03.029 put on a pedestal and you will do a lot to avoid 00:07:03.029 --> 00:07:06.129 falling off. So when the mask slips for the first 00:07:06.129 --> 00:07:08.629 time, when there's that first flicker of something 00:07:08.629 --> 00:07:10.870 else, I'm not thinking this guy is a jerk. I'm 00:07:10.870 --> 00:07:13.269 thinking, what did I do to make the nice guy 00:07:13.269 --> 00:07:17.490 go away? Bingo! You are primed to fix it. You 00:07:17.490 --> 00:07:20.589 internalize the responsibility. I must have done 00:07:20.589 --> 00:07:23.129 something wrong to stop this wonderful flow of 00:07:23.129 --> 00:07:25.110 affection. And that's the setup for the next 00:07:25.110 --> 00:07:27.089 tool. That is when they introduce the second 00:07:27.089 --> 00:07:29.009 tool in the kit, which is the one that I think 00:07:29.009 --> 00:07:31.009 is most misunderstood by the general public. 00:07:31.569 --> 00:07:33.970 Negative reinforcement. Okay, I really need you 00:07:33.970 --> 00:07:35.629 to break this down. Yeah. Because I'll be honest. 00:07:35.990 --> 00:07:38.350 Until I read these notes, I thought negative 00:07:38.350 --> 00:07:41.029 reinforcement meant punishment. I thought it 00:07:41.029 --> 00:07:42.470 meant yelling at someone when they did something 00:07:42.470 --> 00:07:45.259 wrong. Most people think that. It's a very common 00:07:45.259 --> 00:07:47.800 misconception. But in behavioral psychology, 00:07:48.180 --> 00:07:51.199 we have to look at the math terms. Positive means 00:07:51.199 --> 00:07:54.079 adding something like a treat or compliment. 00:07:54.480 --> 00:07:58.120 Adding a stimulus. Right. Negative means subtracting 00:07:58.120 --> 00:08:00.980 something. Subtracting something, okay. Not necessarily 00:08:00.980 --> 00:08:04.939 something bad, just... Removing it. So negative 00:08:04.939 --> 00:08:07.480 reinforcement is the removal of something bad. 00:08:07.639 --> 00:08:10.519 It is the cessation of pain or discomfort. It's 00:08:10.519 --> 00:08:13.600 taking away an aversive stimulus. Give me a real 00:08:13.600 --> 00:08:16.199 world scenario of that in a relationship because 00:08:16.199 --> 00:08:19.350 that sounds abstract. Okay. Imagine the atmosphere 00:08:19.350 --> 00:08:21.709 in your house has been toxic for three days. 00:08:22.089 --> 00:08:25.310 The partner is sucking, slamming cupboards, making 00:08:25.310 --> 00:08:28.069 those heavy sighs that fill the room. You are 00:08:28.069 --> 00:08:31.050 walking on eggshells. Your cortisol is through 00:08:31.050 --> 00:08:33.210 the roof. I know that feeling. Your shoulders 00:08:33.210 --> 00:08:35.110 are up by your ears. You feel sick to your stomach 00:08:35.110 --> 00:08:37.549 just walking through the front door. The silent 00:08:37.549 --> 00:08:39.789 tension, it's suffocating. Yeah, it is. It's 00:08:39.789 --> 00:08:42.649 awful. Right. It's aversive. It hurts. And then 00:08:42.649 --> 00:08:44.389 they come to you and say, you know, if you just 00:08:44.389 --> 00:08:45.730 cancel that dinner with your sister tonight, 00:08:45.850 --> 00:08:48.029 we can just stay in, order pizza. and watch a 00:08:48.029 --> 00:08:52.070 movie. And if I cancel, the tension stops. The 00:08:52.070 --> 00:08:54.450 sun comes out. Instantly. The cupboard stops 00:08:54.450 --> 00:08:57.850 slamming. The smile comes back. The pain is removed. 00:08:58.269 --> 00:09:01.029 And what do you feel in that moment? Relief. 00:09:01.690 --> 00:09:04.230 Massive, overwhelming relief. A massive wash 00:09:04.230 --> 00:09:06.490 of relief. Oh, thank God it's over. We're okay. 00:09:06.809 --> 00:09:09.529 So I'm not being rewarded with a prize. I'm being 00:09:09.529 --> 00:09:12.549 rewarded with the absence of torture. Exactly. 00:09:12.549 --> 00:09:14.570 It's bargaining with relief. And that relief 00:09:14.570 --> 00:09:16.690 is incredibly addictive. It trains the brain. 00:09:17.289 --> 00:09:20.669 Compliance equals peace. You start standing for 00:09:20.669 --> 00:09:23.990 ways to proactively comply just to avoid the 00:09:23.990 --> 00:09:26.669 bad atmosphere starting up again. So you start 00:09:26.669 --> 00:09:28.990 thinking, maybe I just shouldn't even make plans 00:09:28.990 --> 00:09:31.269 with my sister next week. You stop seeing your 00:09:31.269 --> 00:09:33.529 sister before they even ask? Just to keep the 00:09:33.529 --> 00:09:35.870 peace, you begin to isolate yourself on their 00:09:35.870 --> 00:09:38.389 behalf. That is insidious. You're training the 00:09:38.389 --> 00:09:40.809 victim to be their own jailer. That is the ultimate 00:09:40.809 --> 00:09:43.129 goal. You want the victim to self -police so 00:09:43.129 --> 00:09:44.990 you don't have to exert as much energy. It's 00:09:44.990 --> 00:09:49.190 horribly efficient. But they don't just use relief. 00:09:49.789 --> 00:09:52.750 They do use punishment eventually. Breaker lists 00:09:52.750 --> 00:09:55.629 psychological punishment as a distinct category. 00:09:55.669 --> 00:09:58.879 Oh yeah. This is the stick. And the most common 00:09:58.879 --> 00:10:00.659 one cited in the sources and one of the most 00:10:00.659 --> 00:10:03.580 damaging is the silent treatment. Which, again, 00:10:03.620 --> 00:10:05.539 sounds childish. I'm not talking to you. It sounds 00:10:05.539 --> 00:10:07.840 like something you do in the third grade. But 00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:10.460 the impact on an adult partner is severe. It 00:10:10.460 --> 00:10:13.679 triggers a primal panic. Humans are social animals. 00:10:13.840 --> 00:10:16.980 We are wired for connection. To be ignored by 00:10:16.980 --> 00:10:19.419 your primary attachment figure, the person you 00:10:19.419 --> 00:10:22.200 live with, sleep next to, is physiologically 00:10:22.200 --> 00:10:24.820 terrifying. It's a form of ostracism. It says, 00:10:24.860 --> 00:10:27.679 you do not exist. It's used to punish noncompliance. 00:10:27.740 --> 00:10:29.559 You didn't do what I wanted, so you are invisible 00:10:29.559 --> 00:10:32.720 until you fix it. It forces the victim to scramble, 00:10:32.799 --> 00:10:35.159 to apologize, to do whatever it takes to be seen 00:10:35.159 --> 00:10:38.440 again. It's a complete rejection of your humanity 00:10:38.440 --> 00:10:40.259 in that moment. Exactly. And then you layer on 00:10:40.259 --> 00:10:42.899 the guilt trips, the emotional blackmail. If 00:10:42.899 --> 00:10:45.100 you love me, you wouldn't go out tonight. Or 00:10:45.100 --> 00:10:47.539 look how sad you've made me. I'm depressed because 00:10:47.539 --> 00:10:50.460 of you. It outsources the responsibility for 00:10:50.460 --> 00:10:53.279 the abuser's emotions onto the victim. The victim 00:10:53.279 --> 00:10:55.980 becomes the emotional caretaker. Their job is 00:10:55.980 --> 00:10:58.139 to manage the abuser's feelings. Branch is exhausting. 00:10:58.580 --> 00:11:01.200 And impossible. It's a full -time job with a 00:11:01.200 --> 00:11:03.860 100 % failure rate. And then the heavy artillery. 00:11:04.570 --> 00:11:08.289 The traumatic tactics, verbal abuse, explosive 00:11:08.289 --> 00:11:11.929 anger, and the word that everyone knows but few 00:11:11.929 --> 00:11:14.769 can define correctly, gaslighting. We have to 00:11:14.769 --> 00:11:17.669 be really specific here because, like, love bombing, 00:11:17.809 --> 00:11:21.789 this term gets overused. Gaslighting is not just 00:11:21.789 --> 00:11:24.730 lying. Right. If I cheat on you and say, I didn't, 00:11:24.730 --> 00:11:27.909 that's lying. Gaslighting is when I say, I was 00:11:27.909 --> 00:11:30.419 home all night, you saw me. You must be seeing 00:11:30.419 --> 00:11:32.000 things. You know you've been really stressed 00:11:32.000 --> 00:11:34.080 lately. Are you sure you're okay? You're sounding 00:11:34.080 --> 00:11:36.559 a bit paranoid. It's an attack on the processing 00:11:36.559 --> 00:11:39.159 unit. It is an assault on reality. It targets 00:11:39.159 --> 00:11:41.899 the victim's trust in their own memory, their 00:11:41.899 --> 00:11:44.919 own perception, their own sanity. Over time, 00:11:44.960 --> 00:11:47.539 the victim starts to think, maybe I am crazy. 00:11:47.759 --> 00:11:50.759 Maybe I don't remember things correctly. It destabilizes 00:11:50.759 --> 00:11:52.779 their entire foundation. And if you've already 00:11:52.779 --> 00:11:55.200 isolated them, which is another tactic we touched 00:11:55.200 --> 00:11:57.940 on. They have no one to reality check with. Exactly. 00:11:58.039 --> 00:12:00.059 That's a key part of the architecture. They can't 00:12:00.059 --> 00:12:02.279 ask a friend, hey, does this sound crazy? Because 00:12:02.279 --> 00:12:04.440 there are no friends left to ask. Right. The 00:12:04.440 --> 00:12:07.500 abuser becomes the only source of truth, the 00:12:07.500 --> 00:12:09.860 arbiter of reality. And whatever they say is 00:12:09.860 --> 00:12:13.179 true becomes true in that tiny two -person world. 00:12:13.500 --> 00:12:15.720 So you have this closed loop. You have the charm 00:12:15.720 --> 00:12:18.700 to hook them, the relief to train them, the silence 00:12:18.700 --> 00:12:20.980 to punish them, and the gaslighting to confuse 00:12:20.980 --> 00:12:24.419 them. But there is one mechanism in the psychology 00:12:24.419 --> 00:12:27.700 section that I found the most terrifying. It 00:12:27.700 --> 00:12:30.559 explains why people stay. It explains the why 00:12:30.559 --> 00:12:35.379 don't they just leave question. We need to talk 00:12:35.379 --> 00:12:37.440 about intermittent reinforcement. This is the 00:12:37.440 --> 00:12:40.039 glue. This is the super glue that holds the abusive 00:12:40.039 --> 00:12:42.299 relationship together. This is the strongest 00:12:42.299 --> 00:12:45.519 bond there is, psychologically speaking. How 00:12:45.519 --> 00:12:48.799 does it work? Why is intermittent stronger than 00:12:48.799 --> 00:12:51.340 constipation? If someone was nice to you all 00:12:51.340 --> 00:12:53.080 the time, wouldn't that be a stronger bond? You'd 00:12:53.080 --> 00:12:55.659 think so, but no. Okay, think about a slot machine 00:12:55.659 --> 00:12:58.500 versus a vending machine. If you put a dollar 00:12:58.500 --> 00:13:00.519 in a vending machine and press the button, you 00:13:00.519 --> 00:13:03.220 get a soda. Every time. It's predictable. Constant 00:13:03.220 --> 00:13:05.960 reinforcement. Transactional. If you put a dollar 00:13:05.960 --> 00:13:07.679 in and nothing comes out, you might kick it, 00:13:07.720 --> 00:13:09.919 but you walk away. It's broken. You don't sit 00:13:09.919 --> 00:13:12.700 there for four hours putting dollar after dollar 00:13:12.700 --> 00:13:15.039 into a broken vending machine. Sure. You move 00:13:15.039 --> 00:13:18.139 on. But a slot machine. You put a dollar in, 00:13:18.220 --> 00:13:20.639 nothing. You put another in, nothing. You put 00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:24.159 another in, ding, ding, ding, 10 bucks. A little 00:13:24.159 --> 00:13:27.000 bit of a win. And suddenly I'm hooked. I'm not 00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:29.159 leaving now. You are hooked because you don't 00:13:29.159 --> 00:13:31.539 know when the reward is coming, but you know 00:13:31.539 --> 00:13:34.379 it could come. That is intermittent reinforcement. 00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:37.399 In a controlling relationship, the abuser is 00:13:37.399 --> 00:13:40.799 not a monster 24 -7. If they were, nobody would 00:13:40.799 --> 00:13:42.620 stay. Nobody would stay. It would be like the 00:13:42.620 --> 00:13:45.379 broken vending machine. They cycle. Sometimes 00:13:45.379 --> 00:13:47.940 they are that wonderful, love -bombing person 00:13:47.940 --> 00:13:49.799 from the beginning. Sometimes they bring flowers. 00:13:50.399 --> 00:13:53.120 Sometimes they are sweet and vulnerable. And 00:13:53.120 --> 00:13:55.679 the victim is constantly pulling the lever. Trying 00:13:55.679 --> 00:13:57.279 to find the pattern. Trying to figure out the 00:13:57.279 --> 00:13:58.980 pattern. Maybe if I clean the house better, he'll 00:13:58.980 --> 00:14:01.059 be nice. Maybe if I don't ask about his day, 00:14:01.120 --> 00:14:03.159 she won't yell. Maybe if I wear this dress, he'll 00:14:03.159 --> 00:14:05.090 be that guy from our first... date again you 00:14:05.090 --> 00:14:07.049 become addicted to the potential of the good 00:14:07.049 --> 00:14:10.409 days and biologically the dopamine hit you get 00:14:10.409 --> 00:14:12.750 when they are finally nice to you after a period 00:14:12.750 --> 00:14:16.330 of abuse is massive it's a huge chemical reward 00:14:16.330 --> 00:14:19.009 in the brain it bonds you to them it creates 00:14:19.009 --> 00:14:21.850 a chemical dependency on the cycle of abuse and 00:14:21.850 --> 00:14:24.309 relief this leads directly to the concept of 00:14:24.309 --> 00:14:27.139 traumatic bonding Yes. Referencing Sanderson's 00:14:27.139 --> 00:14:30.340 work from 2008. It's a paradox that is so hard 00:14:30.340 --> 00:14:33.240 for outsiders to understand. When the person 00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:36.139 who is the source of your terror is also the 00:14:36.139 --> 00:14:38.580 only source of your comfort. The person who can 00:14:38.580 --> 00:14:41.240 make the pain stop. Is the person who is causing 00:14:41.240 --> 00:14:43.500 the pain. Your brain gets wired into a trauma 00:14:43.500 --> 00:14:46.100 bond. You are terrified of them, but you run 00:14:46.100 --> 00:14:48.100 to them for relief because they are the only 00:14:48.100 --> 00:14:50.019 ones who can turn off the pain. That explains 00:14:50.019 --> 00:14:52.259 the question every friend and family member asks. 00:14:52.559 --> 00:14:55.559 Why doesn't she just leave? Why does he stay 00:14:55.559 --> 00:14:57.700 with her? They aren't staying because they are 00:14:57.700 --> 00:14:59.620 stupid. They aren't staying because they are 00:14:59.620 --> 00:15:02.000 weak or because they enjoy it. They are staying 00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:04.159 because they are chemically addicted to the cycle 00:15:04.159 --> 00:15:06.740 and their reality has been rewritten to believe 00:15:06.740 --> 00:15:09.460 they cannot survive without it. It's not a relationship 00:15:09.460 --> 00:15:13.759 anymore. It's a hostage situation where the hostage 00:15:13.759 --> 00:15:15.919 has fallen in love with the captor's intermittent 00:15:15.919 --> 00:15:18.200 kindness. Accurately put, that is the nature 00:15:18.200 --> 00:15:20.720 of the bond. It's incredibly powerful and resistant 00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:25.980 to change. Okay, wow. That's the mechanics. I 00:15:25.980 --> 00:15:30.419 want to pivot to section two, the players. Because 00:15:30.419 --> 00:15:32.200 we talked about the how, but let's talk about 00:15:32.200 --> 00:15:35.580 the who. Is this random? Can anyone fall into 00:15:35.580 --> 00:15:38.519 this dynamic or are people selected? It can happen 00:15:38.519 --> 00:15:40.539 to anyone. I want to be really, really clear 00:15:40.539 --> 00:15:42.500 on that. Intelligent, strong, independent people 00:15:42.500 --> 00:15:44.600 get trapped in this every single day. Absolutely. 00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:47.379 But the sources, Breaker and Simon, specifically 00:15:47.379 --> 00:15:51.100 note that abusers are often sharks. They scan 00:15:51.100 --> 00:15:53.460 for blood in the water. They are adept at spotting 00:15:53.460 --> 00:15:55.440 vulnerabilities. What counts as blood in this 00:15:55.440 --> 00:15:57.539 context? What are they looking for? Vulnerability. 00:15:57.559 --> 00:15:59.539 And I don't mean weakness in the way we typically 00:15:59.539 --> 00:16:01.860 think of it. Often vulnerability looks like empathy. 00:16:02.970 --> 00:16:05.009 Abusers look for people who are naturally people 00:16:05.009 --> 00:16:07.169 pleasers, people who are highly empathetic, or 00:16:07.169 --> 00:16:09.750 people who are conscientious. Why conscientious 00:16:09.750 --> 00:16:11.809 people? That seems counterintuitive. I think 00:16:11.809 --> 00:16:13.929 of them as organized and on top of things. Because 00:16:13.929 --> 00:16:16.639 conscientious people want to do a good job. They 00:16:16.639 --> 00:16:19.379 want to fix things. If you tell a conscientious 00:16:19.379 --> 00:16:21.679 person you're failing at this relationship, they 00:16:21.679 --> 00:16:24.000 will try harder. Oh, wow. They won't just walk 00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:26.539 away. They will double down to prove they are 00:16:26.539 --> 00:16:28.899 good partners. They see it as a project they 00:16:28.899 --> 00:16:30.860 are failing at, and they need to work harder 00:16:30.860 --> 00:16:33.279 to get an A. So the very traits that make you 00:16:33.279 --> 00:16:36.059 a good person, empathy, hard work, kindness, 00:16:36.279 --> 00:16:39.480 are the handles they grab onto. Exactly. They 00:16:39.480 --> 00:16:41.960 are weaponized against the victim. They also 00:16:41.960 --> 00:16:44.240 look for situational vulnerability. Maybe they 00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:46.100 just moved to a new city. Maybe they just lost 00:16:46.100 --> 00:16:47.980 a parent. Maybe they just went through a breakup. 00:16:48.200 --> 00:16:50.279 They look for an opening where the victim is 00:16:50.279 --> 00:16:52.960 looking for connection or stability. And once 00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:55.600 they are in, they have to normalize the behavior. 00:16:55.700 --> 00:16:58.740 The normalizing phase is crucial, right? This 00:16:58.740 --> 00:17:01.860 is the boiling frog. The water heats up one degree 00:17:01.860 --> 00:17:04.519 at a time. You have to rationalize the control. 00:17:05.180 --> 00:17:07.420 I only check your phone because I've been hurt 00:17:07.420 --> 00:17:10.359 before and I love you so much. It's framed as 00:17:10.359 --> 00:17:12.880 care. Always. I'm just passionate. That's why 00:17:12.880 --> 00:17:15.500 I yell. It's because I care too much. Or minimizing. 00:17:15.859 --> 00:17:17.819 You're being dramatic. It wasn't that bad. You're 00:17:17.819 --> 00:17:20.880 too sensitive. And the ultimate pivot. Victim 00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:23.559 blaming. You made me do this. If you hadn't looked 00:17:23.559 --> 00:17:25.339 at that waiter, I wouldn't have had to cause 00:17:25.339 --> 00:17:27.980 the scene. If dinner was on time, I wouldn't 00:17:27.980 --> 00:17:30.420 be so stressed and I wouldn't have to yell. It 00:17:30.420 --> 00:17:32.880 shifts the locus of control. The victim starts 00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:35.690 thinking. If I can just perfect my behavior, 00:17:35.890 --> 00:17:38.650 I can control their behavior. Which is the ultimate 00:17:38.650 --> 00:17:41.589 illusion. You cannot control a controller. Their 00:17:41.589 --> 00:17:43.750 behavior is internal to them. It's not a reaction 00:17:43.750 --> 00:17:46.250 to you. It's a pre -existing condition. Speaking 00:17:46.250 --> 00:17:48.569 of the controller, let's look at the other side 00:17:48.569 --> 00:17:51.289 of the table. Is there a profile for the perpetrator? 00:17:51.970 --> 00:17:54.230 Because the sources get into some heavy abnormal 00:17:54.230 --> 00:17:56.690 psychology here. They do. And this is where it 00:17:56.690 --> 00:18:00.470 gets very clinical. The material references the 00:18:00.470 --> 00:18:02.690 Mayo Clinic and the work of Larson and Buss, 00:18:02.730 --> 00:18:05.509 and they point us directly to Cluster B personality 00:18:05.509 --> 00:18:09.089 disorders. Cluster B. I hear this tossed around 00:18:09.089 --> 00:18:12.269 in pop psychology a lot. On social media, everyone's 00:18:12.269 --> 00:18:14.549 an expert. But what does it actually mean in 00:18:14.549 --> 00:18:17.430 a clinical sense? Cluster B is a grouping of 00:18:17.430 --> 00:18:20.130 personality disorders in the Diagnostic and Statistical 00:18:20.130 --> 00:18:23.450 Manual of Mental Disorders, the DSM. It's characterized 00:18:23.450 --> 00:18:26.230 by dramatic, overly emotional, or unpredictable 00:18:26.230 --> 00:18:29.470 thinking and behavior. But for our deep dive, 00:18:29.730 --> 00:18:32.130 the common thread is a desperate need to manage 00:18:32.130 --> 00:18:34.970 their internal world by controlling the external 00:18:34.970 --> 00:18:37.450 world. They can't regulate from within, so they 00:18:37.450 --> 00:18:39.740 regulate from without. Perfectly said. Their 00:18:39.740 --> 00:18:42.220 internal chaos is so great that they need to 00:18:42.220 --> 00:18:44.420 nail everything down on the outside to feel a 00:18:44.420 --> 00:18:46.920 semblance of stability. So who are the usual 00:18:46.920 --> 00:18:49.039 suspects? What disorders fall under this umbrella? 00:18:49.339 --> 00:18:52.440 The big four. First and perhaps most famously, 00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:55.940 narcissistic personality disorder, NPD. The need 00:18:55.940 --> 00:18:58.700 for admiration, the grandiosity. And the profound 00:18:58.700 --> 00:19:01.039 lack of empathy. That's the dangerous combo. 00:19:01.160 --> 00:19:03.519 The worldview is, I am entitled to get what I 00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:05.779 want, I am special, and I don't care how my actions 00:19:05.779 --> 00:19:07.440 affect you because you are just a supporting 00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:10.279 character in the movie of my life. People become 00:19:10.279 --> 00:19:13.200 objects, sources of narcissistic supply. And 00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:15.359 if that supply is threatened? They will exert 00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:18.420 control to secure it. Okay, what's next? Histrionic 00:19:18.420 --> 00:19:21.440 personality disorder. This is characterized by 00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:24.599 excessive attention -seeking and very volatile 00:19:24.599 --> 00:19:27.480 emotions. They need to be the center of the universe, 00:19:27.559 --> 00:19:29.880 and if you look away, they will create a crisis 00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:33.000 to pull your attention back. The control is about 00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:35.140 maintaining focus on them. Then there's the one 00:19:35.140 --> 00:19:37.500 that is often the most volatile in relationships, 00:19:37.619 --> 00:19:40.559 from what I've read. Borderline Personality Disorder 00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:44.430 . Now, this is complex because people with BPD 00:19:44.430 --> 00:19:47.569 suffer immensely. The core of it is a frantic 00:19:47.569 --> 00:19:51.109 fear of abandonment, a deep, terror -filled fear 00:19:51.109 --> 00:19:53.569 of being left alone. So the control stems from 00:19:53.569 --> 00:19:56.549 that fear. Yes. It's not necessarily about domination 00:19:56.549 --> 00:19:59.390 for gratification like with NPD. It's about desperation. 00:19:59.769 --> 00:20:02.170 I will lock you in this room relationship so 00:20:02.170 --> 00:20:04.589 you can never leave me. It's a desperate attempt 00:20:04.589 --> 00:20:07.150 to bind the person to them, which often leads 00:20:07.150 --> 00:20:09.750 to that oscillation between idealizing them. 00:20:09.809 --> 00:20:11.900 You're the best. You're my savior. and devaluing 00:20:11.900 --> 00:20:13.599 them. You're the worst. You betrayed me in the 00:20:13.599 --> 00:20:15.400 span of an hour. That sounds like a terrifying 00:20:15.400 --> 00:20:17.539 roller coaster. It is for both people in the 00:20:17.539 --> 00:20:19.440 relationship. And the last one. The last one 00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:22.599 is antisocial personality disorder, APD. What 00:20:22.599 --> 00:20:25.539 we colloquially call sociopathy or psychopathy. 00:20:25.619 --> 00:20:28.859 Loosely. Yes. This is a disregard for right and 00:20:28.859 --> 00:20:31.960 wrong, a history of deceitfulness, impulsivity, 00:20:32.119 --> 00:20:36.000 and a fundamental lack of remorse. For an APD 00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:38.980 individual, people are just objects to be moved 00:20:38.980 --> 00:20:41.640 around on a chessboard to achieve a goal. They 00:20:41.640 --> 00:20:43.500 don't feel the guilt that would stop a normal 00:20:43.500 --> 00:20:45.680 person from hurting someone. So control is just 00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:48.019 a tool, like a hammer. It's not emotional. It's 00:20:48.019 --> 00:20:50.799 instrumental. So the expert analysis here is 00:20:50.799 --> 00:20:52.720 that for a significant portion of perpetrators, 00:20:52.859 --> 00:20:55.359 these aren't just bad habits or poor choices. 00:20:55.720 --> 00:20:58.799 These behaviors are hardwired into their personality 00:20:58.799 --> 00:21:01.640 structure. Yes. For someone with a cluster B 00:21:01.640 --> 00:21:04.279 disorder, power and control aren't just hobbies. 00:21:04.339 --> 00:21:07.119 They are defense mechanisms. They feel necessary 00:21:07.119 --> 00:21:10.960 for survival. To give up control feels like annihilation, 00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:13.539 like death to them. That makes it sound incredibly 00:21:13.539 --> 00:21:15.940 difficult to change. It is. Personality disorders 00:21:15.940 --> 00:21:18.950 are, by definition, deeply ingrained. patterns. 00:21:19.349 --> 00:21:21.809 They are often what we call egocentronic, meaning 00:21:21.809 --> 00:21:23.910 the person doesn't see their personality as the 00:21:23.910 --> 00:21:25.690 problem. They think they're right. They think 00:21:25.690 --> 00:21:27.390 you are the problem. You are the one who needs 00:21:27.390 --> 00:21:29.650 to change to make them feel okay. Which brings 00:21:29.650 --> 00:21:31.710 us to the most difficult question of the episode. 00:21:32.549 --> 00:21:37.309 If this is hardwired, how do you stop it? How 00:21:37.309 --> 00:21:39.589 does society intervene when you're not just dealing 00:21:39.589 --> 00:21:43.440 with a bad choice? but a fundamental way a person 00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:46.220 is built. That leads us directly into the legal 00:21:46.220 --> 00:21:49.059 problem, because for a long time, the law didn't 00:21:49.059 --> 00:21:51.099 know what to do with this. It had no language 00:21:51.099 --> 00:21:54.039 for it. Let's move to section three, the law, 00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:57.180 because for centuries, the legal system has been 00:21:57.180 --> 00:21:59.440 very binary, very black and white. Right. It 00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:01.920 was physical. Did he hit you? No. OK, go home. 00:22:01.960 --> 00:22:04.799 It's a domestic dispute. The law's response was 00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:07.079 essentially it's a private family matter. The 00:22:07.079 --> 00:22:09.140 door to the home was a legal barrier the state 00:22:09.140 --> 00:22:11.769 was very reluctant to cross. But we are seeing 00:22:11.769 --> 00:22:14.470 a massive paradigm shift. We are moving from 00:22:14.470 --> 00:22:16.430 talking about domestic violence as a series of 00:22:16.430 --> 00:22:19.329 incidents to talking about coercive control as 00:22:19.329 --> 00:22:21.470 a continuous state of being. It's a shift from 00:22:21.470 --> 00:22:23.069 looking at incidents to looking at patterns. 00:22:23.130 --> 00:22:25.150 It's acknowledging that liberty is a human right 00:22:25.150 --> 00:22:27.549 and you can strip someone of their liberty within 00:22:27.549 --> 00:22:29.450 a marriage just as effectively as you can in 00:22:29.450 --> 00:22:31.849 a prison. The UK seems to be the pioneer here. 00:22:31.970 --> 00:22:34.049 Let's look at the England and Wales model. They 00:22:34.049 --> 00:22:36.269 are the gold standard right now. The Serious 00:22:36.269 --> 00:22:39.190 Crime Act 2015 was the game changer. For the 00:22:39.190 --> 00:22:41.710 first time, it explicitly created a criminal 00:22:41.710 --> 00:22:44.809 offense for controlling or coercive behavior 00:22:44.809 --> 00:22:48.190 in intimate or family relationships. Making it 00:22:48.190 --> 00:22:50.670 a crime in itself, not just an aggravating factor 00:22:50.670 --> 00:22:53.410 in an assault case. Exactly. The behavior itself 00:22:53.410 --> 00:22:56.029 became the crime. But here's the problem I always 00:22:56.029 --> 00:22:58.740 wonder about with these laws. Proof. A bruise 00:22:58.740 --> 00:23:00.359 is evidence. I can take a picture of bruise. 00:23:00.380 --> 00:23:03.779 A manipulation tactic is smoke. How did the UK 00:23:03.779 --> 00:23:06.579 solve the how do you prove it problem? They got 00:23:06.579 --> 00:23:09.319 specific. They built a framework. The law requires 00:23:09.319 --> 00:23:12.039 two things. First, the behavior must be repeated 00:23:12.039 --> 00:23:14.400 or continuous. So a bad weekend doesn't count. 00:23:14.519 --> 00:23:16.819 Yeah. One nasty fight isn't coercive control. 00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:19.740 No. It has to be a regime, a pattern of behavior 00:23:19.740 --> 00:23:22.710 that builds that cage we talked about. And secondly, 00:23:22.990 --> 00:23:25.250 it must have a serious effect on the victim. 00:23:25.430 --> 00:23:27.569 Okay. And how do they define serious effect without 00:23:27.569 --> 00:23:29.529 it being totally subjective? He made me feel 00:23:29.529 --> 00:23:31.849 bad. Isn't going to hold up in court. This is 00:23:31.849 --> 00:23:33.509 the brilliant part. Serious effect is defined 00:23:33.509 --> 00:23:37.529 in two ways. One, causing the victim to fear 00:23:37.529 --> 00:23:39.589 that violence will be used against them on at 00:23:39.589 --> 00:23:41.809 least two occasions. That's the more traditional 00:23:41.809 --> 00:23:44.140 route. Okay. or are and this is the progressive 00:23:44.140 --> 00:23:47.660 part having a substantial adverse effect on the 00:23:47.660 --> 00:23:50.039 victim's day -to -day activity day -to -day activity 00:23:50.039 --> 00:23:52.839 so we are looking at behavioral changes in the 00:23:52.839 --> 00:23:55.900 victim we're looking at their life exactly it 00:23:55.900 --> 00:23:58.759 moves the focus from the perpetrator's mind to 00:23:58.759 --> 00:24:01.920 the victim's reality A prosecutor can ask, did 00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:04.140 she stop going to the gym because he made it 00:24:04.140 --> 00:24:06.380 difficult? Did he cut off contact with his brother 00:24:06.380 --> 00:24:09.039 because she monitored his calls? Did she change 00:24:09.039 --> 00:24:11.700 her route to work to avoid him? Did he stop having 00:24:11.700 --> 00:24:14.480 access to his own bank account? So you're proving 00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:16.640 the existence of the cage by showing the places 00:24:16.640 --> 00:24:19.519 the person can no longer go. Yes. Tangible restrictions 00:24:19.519 --> 00:24:21.700 on life. If you have changed the way you live 00:24:21.700 --> 00:24:23.779 your life, your basic movements, your associations, 00:24:24.019 --> 00:24:26.579 your finances, to accommodate their control and 00:24:26.579 --> 00:24:29.079 keep the peace, that is evidence of a serious 00:24:29.079 --> 00:24:31.779 effect. You don't need a black eye. You need 00:24:31.779 --> 00:24:34.140 to show that your world has shrunk. That is a 00:24:34.140 --> 00:24:36.200 really smart way to frame it. It looks at the 00:24:36.200 --> 00:24:38.599 impact rather than trying to prove the intent 00:24:38.599 --> 00:24:41.059 behind every single subtle action. And they went 00:24:41.059 --> 00:24:44.279 further. This is what I find so hopeful. In 2019, 00:24:44.500 --> 00:24:46.880 the UK government made teaching about coercive 00:24:46.880 --> 00:24:49.559 control a mandatory part of the relationship 00:24:49.559 --> 00:24:52.200 education syllabus in schools. Wait, really? 00:24:52.279 --> 00:24:54.640 So 15 -year -olds are learning what love bombing 00:24:54.640 --> 00:24:57.240 is in a classroom? Yes. They are learning about 00:24:57.240 --> 00:24:59.420 gaslighting, about isolation, about financial 00:24:59.420 --> 00:25:01.880 control, about what healthy boundaries look like. 00:25:02.240 --> 00:25:05.160 Imagine if we had that vocabulary in high school. 00:25:05.339 --> 00:25:07.539 It would change everything. How many toxic relationships 00:25:07.539 --> 00:25:09.619 could have been nipped in the bud because you 00:25:09.619 --> 00:25:12.099 recognized the red flag on the second date instead 00:25:12.099 --> 00:25:14.390 of 10 years? years and two kids later. That is 00:25:14.390 --> 00:25:16.250 generational change. That changes the culture, 00:25:16.289 --> 00:25:19.109 not just the law. Now let's hop across the water 00:25:19.109 --> 00:25:21.509 to Ireland. They have the Domestic Violence Act 00:25:21.509 --> 00:25:26.009 2018. Is it similar? It is, but with a fascinating 00:25:26.009 --> 00:25:28.990 difference in emphasis. The Irish model is interesting 00:25:28.990 --> 00:25:31.589 because it focuses heavily on welfare. Welfare 00:25:31.589 --> 00:25:34.769 in what sense? Economic welfare. Broader. The 00:25:34.769 --> 00:25:37.210 legal definition of coercive control includes 00:25:37.210 --> 00:25:40.509 evidence of deterioration in the physical, psychological, 00:25:40.549 --> 00:25:43.769 or emotional welfare caused directly by fear. 00:25:44.329 --> 00:25:47.029 Deterioration of emotional welfare. That sounds 00:25:47.029 --> 00:25:50.630 almost spiritual. It's so holistic. It's deeply 00:25:50.630 --> 00:25:53.849 human. It recognizes that you can erode a person. 00:25:53.950 --> 00:25:55.910 You can destroy their confidence, their mental 00:25:55.910 --> 00:25:58.250 health, their spark, their very sense of self. 00:25:58.470 --> 00:26:00.450 Without ever touching them, you can reduce them 00:26:00.450 --> 00:26:04.410 to a shell. in the eyes of the Irish law is a 00:26:04.410 --> 00:26:06.569 crime against their welfare. So it's less about 00:26:06.569 --> 00:26:09.630 did your activities change and more about did 00:26:09.630 --> 00:26:12.089 you change? Did your soul get sick? That's a 00:26:12.089 --> 00:26:14.170 great way to put it. It focuses on the internal 00:26:14.170 --> 00:26:16.509 damage, which is really the primary goal of the 00:26:16.509 --> 00:26:18.690 abuser in the first place. Okay, bring it home. 00:26:18.730 --> 00:26:21.900 The United States. We are... Complicated. We 00:26:21.900 --> 00:26:24.740 are a patchwork quilt. Family law, criminal law, 00:26:24.880 --> 00:26:26.980 it's all state by state. So the protections you 00:26:26.980 --> 00:26:29.000 have in California might be totally nonexistent 00:26:29.000 --> 00:26:31.619 in Alabama or Texas. There's no federal standard 00:26:31.619 --> 00:26:33.799 for this. We have mandatory reporting rights 00:26:33.799 --> 00:26:36.500 for some. Yes. We do. For children and vulnerable 00:26:36.500 --> 00:26:39.559 adults, teachers, doctors, care providers, they 00:26:39.559 --> 00:26:41.680 have a legal duty to report suspected abuse. 00:26:42.160 --> 00:26:45.400 But historically, for competent adults, the law 00:26:45.400 --> 00:26:47.359 has been very hands off until blood is drawn. 00:26:47.559 --> 00:26:50.460 The attitude has been. Why don't you just leave? 00:26:50.579 --> 00:26:52.980 Which, as we've discussed, is a profound misunderstanding 00:26:52.980 --> 00:26:55.619 of the dynamic. But that is changing. We have 00:26:55.619 --> 00:26:57.400 to talk about Jennifer's Law in Connecticut, 00:26:57.579 --> 00:27:00.519 passed in 2021. This feels like a turning point. 00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:02.779 This is the key U .S. case study. Connecticut 00:27:02.779 --> 00:27:05.619 expanded its legal definition of domestic violence 00:27:05.619 --> 00:27:08.960 to explicitly include coercive control. This 00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:11.299 allows victims to get restraining orders and 00:27:11.299 --> 00:27:13.759 protective measures based on psychological abuse, 00:27:13.940 --> 00:27:16.700 not just physical threats. It gives them a legal 00:27:16.700 --> 00:27:18.720 foothold before things escalate. And we have 00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:20.579 to talk about the names. This isn't just an abstract 00:27:20.579 --> 00:27:22.839 law. Who is this law named after? It's named 00:27:22.839 --> 00:27:26.299 for two women, Jennifer Ferber -Dulos and Jennifer 00:27:26.299 --> 00:27:29.339 Magnano. Both were women in Connecticut involved 00:27:29.339 --> 00:27:32.519 in contentious divorces. Both were victims of 00:27:32.519 --> 00:27:34.380 what we would now, with our current vocabulary, 00:27:34.420 --> 00:27:37.519 call severe coercive control. And tragically, 00:27:37.539 --> 00:27:40.200 both cases ended in catastrophe. Both ended in 00:27:40.200 --> 00:27:43.019 death. Jennifer Magnano was murdered by her husband 00:27:43.019 --> 00:27:45.740 while her children were home. Jennifer Farber 00:27:45.740 --> 00:27:47.839 -Dulos disappeared and is presumed to have been 00:27:47.839 --> 00:27:51.539 murdered by her husband. And that just, it highlights 00:27:51.539 --> 00:27:53.960 the point we started with. It does. The control 00:27:53.960 --> 00:27:56.890 is the predictor. These laws are often written 00:27:56.890 --> 00:27:59.509 in blood because we waited too long. We waited 00:27:59.509 --> 00:28:01.549 for the physical violence, not understanding 00:28:01.549 --> 00:28:04.329 that the war was already being waged. We waited 00:28:04.329 --> 00:28:06.789 for the crime to happen, not realizing that control 00:28:06.789 --> 00:28:09.990 was the crime. Exactly. Jennifer's Law is an 00:28:09.990 --> 00:28:12.670 attempt to intervene before the murder. It's 00:28:12.670 --> 00:28:15.089 trying to catch the behavior when it's just control, 00:28:15.309 --> 00:28:18.029 recognizing that just control is actually a lethal 00:28:18.029 --> 00:28:21.109 warning sign. It gives judges the power to say, 00:28:21.559 --> 00:28:24.400 This pattern is dangerous before a weapon is 00:28:24.400 --> 00:28:26.200 involved. It's heartbreaking that it takes that 00:28:26.200 --> 00:28:28.640 level of tragedy to move the legislature, but 00:28:28.640 --> 00:28:31.299 it validates the victim's reality. It says, you 00:28:31.299 --> 00:28:33.940 are not crazy. This is real. This is dangerous. 00:28:34.059 --> 00:28:36.380 And the state sees you. It brings the invisible 00:28:36.380 --> 00:28:38.980 chains into the light of a courtroom. It gives 00:28:38.980 --> 00:28:41.599 victims a language and a legal standing they've 00:28:41.599 --> 00:28:44.099 never had before. So we've covered a massive 00:28:44.099 --> 00:28:46.460 amount of ground today. I mean, from the chemical 00:28:46.460 --> 00:28:49.259 hooks of intermittent reinforcement and the psychology 00:28:49.259 --> 00:28:51.680 of the slot machine relationship. all the way 00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:54.079 to the legal definitions in the UK courts. We 00:28:54.079 --> 00:28:56.380 have. It's a lot to process. It's a heavy topic. 00:28:56.460 --> 00:28:59.259 It is. If we have to synthesize this for the 00:28:59.259 --> 00:29:02.480 listener, what is the ultimate takeaway from 00:29:02.480 --> 00:29:06.059 this deep dive? I'd say this. Controlling behavior 00:29:06.059 --> 00:29:09.470 is a spectrum, but it is a predictable one. It's 00:29:09.470 --> 00:29:12.289 not random. It starts with the hook, the charm, 00:29:12.470 --> 00:29:15.210 the love bombing. It traps you with the cycle, 00:29:15.329 --> 00:29:17.509 the hot and cold, the intermittent reinforcement. 00:29:17.849 --> 00:29:20.349 It exploits your best qualities, your empathy, 00:29:20.450 --> 00:29:23.250 and it is driven by the perpetrator's deep seated 00:29:23.250 --> 00:29:25.930 need for power and gratification. And while it 00:29:25.930 --> 00:29:28.289 feels magical and confusing and unique when you 00:29:28.289 --> 00:29:30.539 are in it. Like you're the only two people in 00:29:30.539 --> 00:29:32.960 the world in this bizarre dance. It is actually 00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:36.220 mechanical. It is a trick, a playbook. And knowing 00:29:36.220 --> 00:29:38.200 the trick is the first step to breaking the spell. 00:29:38.339 --> 00:29:40.119 If you can name gaslighting, if you can point 00:29:40.119 --> 00:29:42.259 to intermittent reinforcement, it stops being 00:29:42.259 --> 00:29:44.440 a mystery about your relationship. It just becomes 00:29:44.440 --> 00:29:46.720 a manipulation tactic. It loses its mystical 00:29:46.720 --> 00:29:48.839 power over you. It gives you a map out of the 00:29:48.839 --> 00:29:50.660 maze. Yes. I want to leave the listener with 00:29:50.660 --> 00:29:52.900 a thought, though. Something that's been nagging 00:29:52.900 --> 00:29:55.480 at me since we discussed the Cluster B profiles. 00:29:55.839 --> 00:29:58.450 Let's hear it. We've established that for many 00:29:58.450 --> 00:30:00.910 perpetrators, especially those with things like 00:30:00.910 --> 00:30:03.569 narcissistic or antisocial personality disorders, 00:30:03.869 --> 00:30:08.170 this need for control is hardwired. It's a psychological 00:30:08.170 --> 00:30:10.690 compulsion. It's part of their pathology. Right. 00:30:10.789 --> 00:30:12.910 They aren't just choosing to be mean. They are 00:30:12.910 --> 00:30:15.869 driven by their disorder to be controlling. So 00:30:15.869 --> 00:30:19.650 as we expand these laws, are we criminalizing 00:30:19.650 --> 00:30:22.690 a mental illness? If the behavior is a compulsion, 00:30:22.789 --> 00:30:25.670 can legal punishment actually deter it? Or are 00:30:25.670 --> 00:30:27.990 we just punishing people for being wired differently 00:30:27.990 --> 00:30:30.690 in a way that is harmful to others? That is a 00:30:30.690 --> 00:30:32.829 tension at the heart of forensic psychology and 00:30:32.829 --> 00:30:35.289 the law. Is the goal rehabilitation or is the 00:30:35.289 --> 00:30:37.970 goal protection of the victim? And when safety 00:30:37.970 --> 00:30:40.430 is on the line, usually the law has to side with 00:30:40.430 --> 00:30:43.109 safety regardless of the why behind the behavior. 00:30:43.329 --> 00:30:46.269 But the question of what true justice looks like, 00:30:46.309 --> 00:30:49.069 that's much harder. And furthermore, as laws 00:30:49.069 --> 00:30:51.630 like Jennifer's law expand, where does society 00:30:51.630 --> 00:30:55.130 draw the hard line? When does a bad breakup or 00:30:55.130 --> 00:30:57.630 a toxic boyfriend become a criminal coercer? 00:30:58.069 --> 00:31:01.069 Because that line is going to get tested in courtrooms 00:31:01.069 --> 00:31:03.970 all over the world in the next 10 years. It's 00:31:03.970 --> 00:31:07.230 a huge, blurry, and necessary gray area we're 00:31:07.230 --> 00:31:09.470 wading into. It's going to be messy, no question. 00:31:09.990 --> 00:31:12.430 But it's a necessary mess if we want to protect 00:31:12.430 --> 00:31:15.069 autonomy as a basic human right within the home. 00:31:15.269 --> 00:31:17.769 It is a brave new world for relationships and 00:31:17.769 --> 00:31:19.859 the law. Thank you for guiding us through the 00:31:19.859 --> 00:31:21.779 weeds today. This was incredibly insightful. 00:31:22.039 --> 00:31:23.420 My pleasure. Thank you for the conversation. 00:31:23.740 --> 00:31:25.460 And thank you for listening to this deep dive. 00:31:25.720 --> 00:31:29.720 Stay curious, stay safe, and remember. Knowledge 00:31:29.720 --> 00:31:31.500 really is power. We'll see you in the next one. 00:31:31.559 --> 00:31:31.839 Take care.