WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.359 Welcome back to the Deep Dive. Today is Monday, 00:00:02.520 --> 00:00:06.519 February 2nd, 2026, and I want to start by just 00:00:06.519 --> 00:00:09.339 pointing out something that feels a little strange, 00:00:09.439 --> 00:00:11.519 a little meta. You're talking about the fact 00:00:11.519 --> 00:00:14.060 that we're a podcasting. Talking about podcasting. 00:00:14.080 --> 00:00:16.179 Exactly. It's a snake eating its own tail, right? 00:00:16.359 --> 00:00:18.660 You, the listener, are currently plugged into 00:00:18.660 --> 00:00:20.539 this feed, or let's be honest, about the year 00:00:20.539 --> 00:00:21.879 we're in, you're probably watching this on a 00:00:21.879 --> 00:00:24.160 screen, and you're consuming a deep dive about 00:00:24.160 --> 00:00:27.750 the very system, the... the architecture that 00:00:27.750 --> 00:00:30.309 allows this to even exist we're turning the microscope 00:00:30.309 --> 00:00:32.850 back on ourselves we are and we really have to 00:00:32.850 --> 00:00:36.369 because the word podcasting in 2026 means something 00:00:36.369 --> 00:00:38.229 completely different from what it meant 20 years 00:00:38.229 --> 00:00:42.320 ago our mission today is to figure out How this 00:00:42.320 --> 00:00:45.039 weird portmanteau, a mix of a specific Apple 00:00:45.039 --> 00:00:47.859 device and an old radio term, somehow managed 00:00:47.859 --> 00:00:49.820 to conquer the world. And it really did conquer 00:00:49.820 --> 00:00:51.939 the world. It went from this tiny, almost hidden 00:00:51.939 --> 00:00:55.380 audio blogging niche for tech nerds to, as you 00:00:55.380 --> 00:00:58.259 said, a video -dominated industry. It's a wild 00:00:58.259 --> 00:01:01.170 ride. It is. And for this, we've gone deep into 00:01:01.170 --> 00:01:03.729 the sources. We're primarily pulling from the 00:01:03.729 --> 00:01:06.670 really comprehensive Wikipedia archives, looking 00:01:06.670 --> 00:01:09.469 at everything up to 2025 to build out this history. 00:01:09.689 --> 00:01:12.349 We want to look at the name, the tech, the... 00:01:13.120 --> 00:01:16.459 The really vicious legal wars. The legal wars 00:01:16.459 --> 00:01:19.060 are a story in themselves. I mean, the fact that 00:01:19.060 --> 00:01:21.420 this medium even survived the patent trolls is, 00:01:21.500 --> 00:01:24.500 frankly, a minor miracle. It came so close to 00:01:24.500 --> 00:01:26.280 being strangled in its grip. And that's a key 00:01:26.280 --> 00:01:28.780 theme for us today. This whole idea of democratization. 00:01:29.099 --> 00:01:32.040 The open RSS feed versus the corporate gatekeepers 00:01:32.040 --> 00:01:35.019 who tried and failed to lock it all down. It's 00:01:35.019 --> 00:01:36.959 a story of the open Internet, really. But I think 00:01:36.959 --> 00:01:38.659 we have to start with the present day. We have 00:01:38.659 --> 00:01:41.540 to start with the elephant in the room. The 4K 00:01:41.540 --> 00:01:43.950 camera staring at us. Exactly. What even is a 00:01:43.950 --> 00:01:47.030 podcast in 2026? Because the old definition just 00:01:47.030 --> 00:01:48.870 doesn't work anymore. It's functionally useless. 00:01:49.170 --> 00:01:52.010 If you'd asked me 10 years ago, let's say 2016, 00:01:52.290 --> 00:01:53.989 I'd have said, oh, it's a downloadable audio 00:01:53.989 --> 00:01:56.150 file you get through an RSS feed. End of story. 00:01:56.510 --> 00:01:59.769 Simple, clean, technically accurate. But today 00:01:59.769 --> 00:02:02.390 I was looking at a Bloomberg report from last 00:02:02.390 --> 00:02:06.030 year, 2025, and the number it gave was just staggering. 00:02:06.250 --> 00:02:08.729 It said a billion people. A billion with a B. 00:02:08.849 --> 00:02:11.229 A billion people were watching podcasts on YouTube. 00:02:11.879 --> 00:02:13.800 Every single month. Think about that. That's 00:02:13.800 --> 00:02:16.280 not a niche audience. That's a fundamental shift 00:02:16.280 --> 00:02:19.120 in how people are consuming media. The primary 00:02:19.120 --> 00:02:22.240 way a huge chunk of the world experiences this 00:02:22.240 --> 00:02:25.810 audio medium is now visual. It changes everything. 00:02:26.009 --> 00:02:28.469 The entire promise of podcasting for the first 00:02:28.469 --> 00:02:30.449 two decades was that it was something you did 00:02:30.449 --> 00:02:32.990 while your eyes were busy. Driving, doing the 00:02:32.990 --> 00:02:35.770 dishes, walking the dog at the gym. It was the 00:02:35.770 --> 00:02:37.990 ultimate secondary activity. It fit into the 00:02:37.990 --> 00:02:40.629 cracks of your day. But now it's demanding your 00:02:40.629 --> 00:02:42.550 full attention. It's demanding your eyes. And 00:02:42.550 --> 00:02:44.689 that creates this huge tension, doesn't it? A 00:02:44.689 --> 00:02:46.669 tension between the original definition, the 00:02:46.669 --> 00:02:49.069 very name podcast with its link to the audio 00:02:49.069 --> 00:02:52.389 -only iPod, and this new reality of it being 00:02:52.389 --> 00:02:55.370 essentially on -demand television. So is it a 00:02:55.370 --> 00:02:57.969 podcast if it's just audio anymore? I mean, are 00:02:57.969 --> 00:02:59.509 you falling behind the curve if you don't have 00:02:59.509 --> 00:03:01.909 cameras in your studio? It's just old fashioned 00:03:01.909 --> 00:03:04.650 radio at that point. That's the big debate. And 00:03:04.650 --> 00:03:07.069 it's not just philosophical. It's having real 00:03:07.069 --> 00:03:09.849 tangible effects on the quality of the content, 00:03:10.030 --> 00:03:11.830 especially for the people still listening the 00:03:11.830 --> 00:03:13.830 old fashioned way. I was reading that piece in 00:03:13.830 --> 00:03:18.129 The Guardian from, what, December 2025? They 00:03:18.129 --> 00:03:19.710 had a great line. I know the one you mean. They 00:03:19.710 --> 00:03:22.629 called it painful to hear. Painful to hear. And 00:03:22.629 --> 00:03:24.650 they're not wrong. I have experienced this so 00:03:24.650 --> 00:03:27.610 many times. I was in the car listening to a comedy 00:03:27.610 --> 00:03:30.710 show, a big one, and they started reacting to 00:03:30.710 --> 00:03:33.810 a video on their laptop. Oh, no. For a solid 00:03:33.810 --> 00:03:35.909 10 minutes, it was just them laughing, pointing, 00:03:36.030 --> 00:03:39.009 saying, oh, look at that. And I'm on the highway 00:03:39.009 --> 00:03:42.050 just listening to dead air and confused giggling. 00:03:42.509 --> 00:03:45.129 I felt completely left out. It alienates the 00:03:45.129 --> 00:03:47.270 core audience. The audio first listener, the 00:03:47.270 --> 00:03:49.610 person the medium was built for, is suddenly 00:03:49.610 --> 00:03:52.250 an afterthought. You feel like you're eavesdropping 00:03:52.250 --> 00:03:54.889 on a conversation you're not part of. It breaks 00:03:54.889 --> 00:03:56.960 the theater of the mind. That's the perfect way 00:03:56.960 --> 00:03:58.800 to put it. The theater of the mind is what made 00:03:58.800 --> 00:04:01.860 audio so powerful. The host had to describe things 00:04:01.860 --> 00:04:05.219 to paint a picture with words. Now, with cameras 00:04:05.219 --> 00:04:07.180 rolling, it's easy to get lazy. You just hold 00:04:07.180 --> 00:04:08.740 something up and say, look at this thing. And 00:04:08.740 --> 00:04:10.360 half your audience has no idea what this thing 00:04:10.360 --> 00:04:12.979 is. So you have this huge evolution in the front 00:04:12.979 --> 00:04:15.659 end, in the consumption. But what's so fascinating 00:04:15.659 --> 00:04:18.000 to me is that the back end, the technology under 00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:21.740 the hood, is basically ancient by internet standards. 00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:24.220 We're still running on tech from 2001. We are. 00:04:24.360 --> 00:04:27.970 The humble, un - killable RSS feed, really simple 00:04:27.970 --> 00:04:31.089 syndication. In a world of closed off algorithms 00:04:31.089 --> 00:04:34.110 from TikTok and Instagram, these walled gardens, 00:04:34.389 --> 00:04:37.089 the RSS feed is like this little cockroach that 00:04:37.089 --> 00:04:39.689 just refuses to die. I think most people who 00:04:39.689 --> 00:04:41.810 listen to podcasts probably don't even know what 00:04:41.810 --> 00:04:44.670 RSS is or that they're using it every day. Can 00:04:44.670 --> 00:04:46.769 we just break down how it actually works? Absolutely. 00:04:46.970 --> 00:04:49.069 It's beautiful in its simplicity. Think of it 00:04:49.069 --> 00:04:51.269 like a menu posted outside a restaurant. The 00:04:51.269 --> 00:04:54.290 generator, which is us, the creators, we maintain 00:04:54.290 --> 00:04:57.459 a simple text file on a server. That file is 00:04:57.459 --> 00:05:00.779 just a list. Like a blog post. Exactly. It says, 00:05:00.879 --> 00:05:03.439 here's the new episode, here's the title, here 00:05:03.439 --> 00:05:05.360 are the show notes, and here is a link to the 00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:08.560 MP3 file. That's basically it. And our app, the 00:05:08.560 --> 00:05:11.420 client on our phone, is the customer. The customer. 00:05:11.480 --> 00:05:14.139 So your app, whether it's Apple Podcasts or Spotify 00:05:14.139 --> 00:05:17.899 or Overcast, it's programmed to essentially walk 00:05:17.899 --> 00:05:20.319 by the restaurant every hour or so and check 00:05:20.319 --> 00:05:22.800 the menu on the wall. Anything new today? No. 00:05:23.240 --> 00:05:25.920 OK. An hour later. How about now? Oh, a new special. 00:05:26.019 --> 00:05:28.160 Great. I'll download that. And that's the pull 00:05:28.160 --> 00:05:30.360 versus push distinction, which is so important. 00:05:30.459 --> 00:05:34.199 It's critical. A radio tower is push. It blasts 00:05:34.199 --> 00:05:35.980 a signal out. And if you have a receiver, you 00:05:35.980 --> 00:05:38.439 get it. But the government can shut down that 00:05:38.439 --> 00:05:40.800 one tower and the signal is gone. It's centralized. 00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:44.699 Very. But RSS is pull. We don't send you the 00:05:44.699 --> 00:05:46.920 file. Your device requests it from our server. 00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:49.459 It's a pull system. And that decentralization 00:05:49.459 --> 00:05:52.000 is what makes it so resilient to censorship and 00:05:52.000 --> 00:05:54.379 control. So it's this weird converged medium. 00:05:54.600 --> 00:05:57.399 It takes the web for the text file, the audio 00:05:57.399 --> 00:06:00.000 content, and the portable player, and it smashes 00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:02.720 them all together. It removes the friction. But 00:06:02.720 --> 00:06:04.899 before we had that, boy, did we have some failures. 00:06:05.100 --> 00:06:08.300 The journey to this point is littered with false 00:06:08.300 --> 00:06:11.279 starts. Which brings us to the origins, the happy 00:06:11.279 --> 00:06:14.720 accident era from 2000 to 2004. This whole thing 00:06:14.720 --> 00:06:17.180 feels so inevitable now, but it really wasn't. 00:06:17.220 --> 00:06:19.319 Not at all. It was cobbled together. If you go 00:06:19.319 --> 00:06:22.279 back to the prehistory, the year 2000, you see 00:06:22.279 --> 00:06:24.639 these early attempts like a company called iTugo. 00:06:24.839 --> 00:06:27.319 That name just screams dot -com bubble. It's 00:06:27.319 --> 00:06:30.009 like pets .com for your ears. It really does. 00:06:30.470 --> 00:06:33.790 Their service was called myaudio2go .com, and 00:06:33.790 --> 00:06:35.810 the idea was actually brilliant, way ahead of 00:06:35.810 --> 00:06:37.509 its time. They let you download news stories 00:06:37.509 --> 00:06:40.129 from major sources to listen to on your PC or 00:06:40.129 --> 00:06:43.529 on these clunky early MP3 players. It was podcasting. 00:06:43.569 --> 00:06:45.629 So what happened? Why aren't we all using i2go 00:06:45.629 --> 00:06:48.129 today? They were just too early. The MP3 players 00:06:48.129 --> 00:06:50.920 were expensive and held like... Ten songs, internet 00:06:50.920 --> 00:06:52.819 speeds were painfully slow, they burned through 00:06:52.819 --> 00:06:55.480 all their money and were gone by 2001. But the 00:06:55.480 --> 00:06:58.500 seed of the idea was planted. The idea of attaching 00:06:58.500 --> 00:07:02.139 audio to a data feed. Exactly. And that's where 00:07:02.139 --> 00:07:05.139 the real tech pioneers come in. A guy named Tristan 00:07:05.139 --> 00:07:08.199 Louie first proposed the idea of attaching files 00:07:08.199 --> 00:07:11.800 to RSS back in October 2000. But the person who 00:07:11.800 --> 00:07:14.240 really built it was Dave Weiner. Dave Weiner. 00:07:14.300 --> 00:07:16.740 He was one of the authors of the RSS format itself, 00:07:16.899 --> 00:07:19.819 right? He was. And he implemented the crucial 00:07:19.819 --> 00:07:22.279 piece of the puzzle, a little bit of code called 00:07:22.279 --> 00:07:25.189 the enclosure tag. The magic tag. That's the 00:07:25.189 --> 00:07:27.550 magic. It's just a line in the text file that 00:07:27.550 --> 00:07:29.970 says, hey, web browser, just so you know, there's 00:07:29.970 --> 00:07:32.069 a media file attached to this post. It's not 00:07:32.069 --> 00:07:34.410 just text. Without that tag, you just have a 00:07:34.410 --> 00:07:36.889 blog. With that tag, suddenly you have a podcast. 00:07:37.290 --> 00:07:39.550 But Weiner was a developer. He built the plumbing, 00:07:39.670 --> 00:07:41.470 but he wasn't a content guy. He needed someone 00:07:41.470 --> 00:07:43.910 to, you know, turn on the water. He needed a 00:07:43.910 --> 00:07:46.810 showman. He needed a front man. Enter the Godfather. 00:07:47.319 --> 00:07:50.019 The guy with the hair from MTV, Adam Curry. It's 00:07:50.019 --> 00:07:53.540 still so strange to me. The father of this decentralized 00:07:53.540 --> 00:07:57.699 nerdy medium is a former MTV VJ. You'd think 00:07:57.699 --> 00:08:00.420 it would be some radio engineer from NPR or the 00:08:00.420 --> 00:08:03.480 BBC. But maybe that's why it worked. Curry understood 00:08:03.480 --> 00:08:06.379 pop culture. He understood content. He wasn't 00:08:06.379 --> 00:08:08.899 just a coder. I think that's exactly right. He 00:08:08.899 --> 00:08:11.579 launched his show, Daily Source Code, in August 00:08:11.579 --> 00:08:14.470 2004. And it wasn't just him talking about his 00:08:14.470 --> 00:08:16.970 day. It was a meta show. He would chronicle his 00:08:16.970 --> 00:08:19.949 life, but he would also talk in real time about 00:08:19.949 --> 00:08:22.149 the development of the medium itself. He was 00:08:22.149 --> 00:08:24.410 building the plane while flying it. And he was 00:08:24.410 --> 00:08:26.470 inviting other people to help. He'd say on his 00:08:26.470 --> 00:08:30.050 show, OK, I'm putting this MP3 file in Dave Weiner's 00:08:30.050 --> 00:08:32.809 enclosure tag. Can any of you developers out 00:08:32.809 --> 00:08:35.110 there write a script that can automatically find 00:08:35.110 --> 00:08:37.529 it and download it for me? So he was crowdsourcing 00:08:37.529 --> 00:08:40.429 the tools. He was. And it worked. He inspired 00:08:40.429 --> 00:08:43.070 this whole community of pioneer podcasters and 00:08:43.070 --> 00:08:45.370 developers. Because of his show, you get the 00:08:45.370 --> 00:08:48.289 first user -friendly applications, the GUIs, 00:08:48.370 --> 00:08:51.370 like a program called iPodderX by August Trometer. 00:08:51.750 --> 00:08:53.929 It was the first app that... made it easy for 00:08:53.929 --> 00:08:56.269 a non -technical person to subscribe to a feed. 00:08:56.450 --> 00:08:58.629 Okay, so you have the tech, you have the godfather, 00:08:58.730 --> 00:09:00.649 you have the first apps. Yeah. But you still 00:09:00.649 --> 00:09:02.629 don't have a name for this thing. And this is 00:09:02.629 --> 00:09:04.750 my favorite part of the story. The etymology. 00:09:04.909 --> 00:09:08.389 Because podcast sounds so deliberate. It sounds 00:09:08.389 --> 00:09:10.549 like something Steve Jobs cooked up in a marketing 00:09:10.549 --> 00:09:13.250 meeting. But Apple had nothing to do with it. 00:09:13.500 --> 00:09:16.500 Not a thing. In fact, the term podcast was being 00:09:16.500 --> 00:09:18.960 used in the wild long before Apple ever officially 00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:21.700 supported the feature in iTunes. They were late 00:09:21.700 --> 00:09:23.620 to their own party. So who do we have to thank 00:09:23.620 --> 00:09:26.500 for the name? A journalist named Ben Hammersley, 00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:29.419 he was writing a piece for The Guardian in February 00:09:29.419 --> 00:09:32.279 of 2004 trying to describe this new phenomenon. 00:09:32.720 --> 00:09:36.019 And he was literally brainstorming names in the 00:09:36.019 --> 00:09:38.320 article itself. He threw out a few options, right? 00:09:38.440 --> 00:09:41.600 He did. He suggested audio blogging, which is, 00:09:41.620 --> 00:09:43.940 you know, descriptive, but a bit dry. Very dry. 00:09:44.350 --> 00:09:46.509 Then he suggested Guerrilla Media. Guerrilla 00:09:46.509 --> 00:09:48.230 Media. I love that one. It sounds so much more 00:09:48.230 --> 00:09:50.269 exciting. Welcome back to the deep dive at Guerrilla 00:09:50.269 --> 00:09:52.389 Media production. It sounds like a pirate radio 00:09:52.389 --> 00:09:55.190 station broadcasting from a hidden bunker. A 00:09:55.190 --> 00:09:57.450 bit too intense, maybe? Probably. So what was 00:09:57.450 --> 00:09:59.570 the third option? Almost as an afterthought, 00:09:59.649 --> 00:10:02.929 he just mused, but what to call it? Audio blogging. 00:10:04.009 --> 00:10:06.429 Podcasting. Guerrilla Media. He just threw it 00:10:06.429 --> 00:10:09.470 out there. Podcasting. A combination of iPod 00:10:09.470 --> 00:10:12.909 and broadcasting. And it just... Stuck. It stuck. 00:10:13.049 --> 00:10:15.830 A guy named Danny Gregoire started using it in 00:10:15.830 --> 00:10:18.830 the online audio blogging community. Adam Curry 00:10:18.830 --> 00:10:21.389 heard it and picked it up for his show. And within 00:10:21.389 --> 00:10:23.809 months, it was just the accepted term. Even though 00:10:23.809 --> 00:10:26.250 it was based on a specific trademarked product 00:10:26.250 --> 00:10:29.350 from a company that was notoriously protective 00:10:29.350 --> 00:10:32.450 of its brand. Extremely risky. But the community 00:10:32.450 --> 00:10:34.509 just ran with it. They didn't ask for permission. 00:10:34.970 --> 00:10:38.269 And that created a huge, huge headache for the 00:10:38.269 --> 00:10:40.370 legal department over in Cupertino. Which is 00:10:40.370 --> 00:10:43.870 the perfect segue into the pod wars, the legal 00:10:43.870 --> 00:10:46.330 battles, because Apple wasn't just going to sit 00:10:46.330 --> 00:10:48.299 there and let a whole new. medium name itself 00:10:48.299 --> 00:10:50.340 after their flagship product without a fight. 00:10:50.460 --> 00:10:52.679 No, they were not. It started getting really 00:10:52.679 --> 00:10:55.539 aggressive around 2006. Apple's lawyers started 00:10:55.539 --> 00:10:58.299 sending out cease and desist letters. Other big 00:10:58.299 --> 00:11:00.139 companies. No, that's the thing. They went after 00:11:00.139 --> 00:11:01.899 small fish first. There was a company called 00:11:01.899 --> 00:11:05.220 Podcast Ready Inc. And they got a letter basically 00:11:05.220 --> 00:11:09.200 saying, hey, that word pod, that's ours. Stop 00:11:09.200 --> 00:11:11.919 using it. Wait, hold on. Their argument was that 00:11:11.919 --> 00:11:14.879 they owned the English word pod. The thing peas 00:11:14.879 --> 00:11:17.460 come in. That was the core of it. I mean, it 00:11:17.460 --> 00:11:21.480 sounds completely insane, but their legal argument 00:11:21.480 --> 00:11:23.919 was based on the concept of secondary meaning. 00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:26.559 What does that mean? It means that a common word 00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:29.580 can become so famously associated with a specific 00:11:29.580 --> 00:11:32.259 brand that it effectively becomes a trademark 00:11:32.259 --> 00:11:35.299 in that context. Their argument was that the 00:11:35.299 --> 00:11:38.700 iPod was so dominant, so world famous, that when 00:11:38.700 --> 00:11:41.740 a consumer saw the word pod in an electronics 00:11:41.740 --> 00:11:43.980 context, they would automatically think of Apple. 00:11:44.409 --> 00:11:46.929 So they were trying to trademark IPodcast and 00:11:46.929 --> 00:11:49.610 even just the word POD by itself. They wanted 00:11:49.610 --> 00:11:51.629 to own the language of the entire ecosystem. 00:11:51.809 --> 00:11:53.809 That was the goal. Control the language, control 00:11:53.809 --> 00:11:56.720 the medium. But the pushback from the community 00:11:56.720 --> 00:12:00.120 was massive. Bloggers, developers, early listeners, 00:12:00.379 --> 00:12:03.039 everyone screamed bloody murder. And it was just 00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:04.740 too late, wasn't it? The horse had already left 00:12:04.740 --> 00:12:06.740 the barn. The word was already everywhere. The 00:12:06.740 --> 00:12:10.220 BBC was talking about their podcasts. NPR was 00:12:10.220 --> 00:12:12.820 using the term. It had become generic. And I 00:12:12.820 --> 00:12:15.220 think Apple had a moment of realization. They 00:12:15.220 --> 00:12:17.019 realized they might be about to kill the golden 00:12:17.019 --> 00:12:20.220 goose. Exactly. They were attacking the very 00:12:20.220 --> 00:12:22.539 medium that was giving people a reason to buy 00:12:22.539 --> 00:12:25.080 iPods. If they killed the word, they might hurt 00:12:25.080 --> 00:12:27.360 their own hardware sales. It was a very delicate 00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:30.679 situation. So they backed down. Which is not 00:12:30.679 --> 00:12:33.000 something Apple does very often. It was a very 00:12:33.000 --> 00:12:36.500 strategic retreat. In late 2006, they put out 00:12:36.500 --> 00:12:39.980 a statement. It was a masterpiece of legal doublespeak. 00:12:40.379 --> 00:12:42.740 They said they didn't object to the generic use 00:12:42.740 --> 00:12:45.200 of the word podcast to refer to the services. 00:12:45.620 --> 00:12:48.159 But they also clarified that they did not license 00:12:48.159 --> 00:12:50.399 the term either. It was their way of saying, 00:12:50.580 --> 00:12:53.559 OK, you can use it for now, but don't think for 00:12:53.559 --> 00:12:56.200 a second we don't still think we own it. It was 00:12:56.200 --> 00:12:58.179 a stalemate, but for the community, it was a 00:12:58.179 --> 00:13:01.679 huge win. The name was safe. But Apple wasn't 00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:03.379 the only one trying to fence in the commons. 00:13:03.899 --> 00:13:06.120 The story of Shea Spencer management is even 00:13:06.120 --> 00:13:08.340 more absurd. Oh, this one is my favorite. This 00:13:08.340 --> 00:13:10.740 is a classic case of what we now call trademark 00:13:10.740 --> 00:13:14.179 trawling. In 2005, this LLC files an application 00:13:14.179 --> 00:13:16.879 to trademark the word podcast. After it's already 00:13:16.879 --> 00:13:18.539 in common use. That's like trying to trademark 00:13:18.539 --> 00:13:21.500 the word internet today. Precisely. They wanted 00:13:21.500 --> 00:13:25.500 to own the trademark for any online pre -recorded 00:13:25.500 --> 00:13:28.950 radio program. And the U .S. Patent and Trademark 00:13:28.950 --> 00:13:31.809 Office, the USPTO, they basically laughed them 00:13:31.809 --> 00:13:33.690 out of the room. They rejected it. They rejected 00:13:33.690 --> 00:13:35.690 it. But the reason they gave for the rejection 00:13:35.690 --> 00:13:38.820 is the beautiful part. In their official ruling, 00:13:39.019 --> 00:13:42.100 they cited the Wikipedia entry for the word podcast 00:13:42.100 --> 00:13:45.580 as evidence. You're kidding. They used Wikipedia 00:13:45.580 --> 00:13:48.799 in a legal decision. They did. They used it as 00:13:48.799 --> 00:13:52.620 proof of prior art and generic usage. The ruling 00:13:52.620 --> 00:13:55.700 essentially said, look, this public open source 00:13:55.700 --> 00:13:58.480 encyclopedia that anyone can edit already says 00:13:58.480 --> 00:14:00.980 this term is part of history. You're way too 00:14:00.980 --> 00:14:03.000 late. That's incredible. It's like the open web 00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:04.940 defending itself, a beautiful feedback loop. 00:14:05.059 --> 00:14:07.940 It's perfect. But the trademark fights were in 00:14:07.940 --> 00:14:10.580 a way just the opening act. The main event, the 00:14:10.580 --> 00:14:12.559 fight that could have actually killed podcasting 00:14:12.559 --> 00:14:14.679 was the patent troll. This is the part of the 00:14:14.679 --> 00:14:17.070 story that really gets my blood boiling. The 00:14:17.070 --> 00:14:19.970 saga of personal audio. It should. This was a 00:14:19.970 --> 00:14:22.070 company that the Electronic Frontier Foundation, 00:14:22.429 --> 00:14:25.250 the EFF, rightly labeled a patent troll. They 00:14:25.250 --> 00:14:26.990 didn't make anything. They just owned patents 00:14:26.990 --> 00:14:30.049 and sued people. And their claim was that they 00:14:30.049 --> 00:14:33.250 had invented podcasting back in 1996. That was 00:14:33.250 --> 00:14:36.889 the claim. They had a patent from 96 for a system 00:14:36.889 --> 00:14:39.809 for disseminating media content. Now, the original 00:14:39.809 --> 00:14:42.549 invention was about putting playlists on cassette 00:14:42.549 --> 00:14:45.129 tapes to go with magazines. It had nothing to 00:14:45.129 --> 00:14:47.649 do with the Internet or MP3s. But the language 00:14:47.649 --> 00:14:49.250 was vague enough. The language was incredibly 00:14:49.250 --> 00:14:51.750 vague. It talked about disseminating episodic 00:14:51.750 --> 00:14:54.929 content and compiling playlists. They argued 00:14:54.929 --> 00:14:57.769 that this covered podcasting and therefore every 00:14:57.769 --> 00:15:00.269 single podcaster owed them a royalty. And they 00:15:00.269 --> 00:15:02.490 didn't go after Apple or Spotify. They went after 00:15:02.490 --> 00:15:04.990 the creators. That's the classic bully tactic. 00:15:05.190 --> 00:15:08.090 In 2013, they started suing high profile shows. 00:15:08.360 --> 00:15:11.000 They went after the Adam Carolla show. They sued 00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:13.059 How Stuff Works. They picked targets that were 00:15:13.059 --> 00:15:15.220 big enough to have some money, but not so big 00:15:15.220 --> 00:15:17.120 they could afford a decade -long court battle. 00:15:17.320 --> 00:15:19.960 That's terrifying. Imagine you're just a creator, 00:15:20.019 --> 00:15:21.899 you build an audience, and suddenly you get a 00:15:21.899 --> 00:15:24.460 letter demanding a cut of your revenue because 00:15:24.460 --> 00:15:27.620 some shell company in Texas claims they invented 00:15:27.620 --> 00:15:30.639 the concept of a series of audio files. It was 00:15:30.639 --> 00:15:33.620 an existential threat to the entire medium. If 00:15:33.620 --> 00:15:35.740 Personal Audio had won their case, it would have 00:15:35.740 --> 00:15:38.779 set a precedent. Every podcaster, from the biggest 00:15:38.779 --> 00:15:41.440 network to a teenager in their bedroom, might 00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:43.179 have been legally required to pay a licensing 00:15:43.179 --> 00:15:45.720 fee just to upload an episode. It would have 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:47.700 completely destroyed the independent spirit. 00:15:47.779 --> 00:15:50.179 It would have turned it into a corporate licensed 00:15:50.179 --> 00:15:52.700 industry overnight. It would have been the end. 00:15:52.779 --> 00:15:55.679 And for a moment, it looked really dark. Adam 00:15:55.679 --> 00:15:58.679 Carolla, facing millions in legal fees, decided 00:15:58.679 --> 00:16:01.340 to settle in 2014. Which must have felt like 00:16:01.340 --> 00:16:03.690 a huge loss for the community. The troll got 00:16:03.690 --> 00:16:05.730 paid. It did. It felt like the bad guys were 00:16:05.730 --> 00:16:08.190 winning, but the fight wasn't over. That's when 00:16:08.190 --> 00:16:10.330 the EFF really stepped in. The heroes of the 00:16:10.330 --> 00:16:13.350 story. Absolutely. The Electronic Frontier Foundation 00:16:13.350 --> 00:16:16.809 filed a petition with the USPTO to have the patent 00:16:16.809 --> 00:16:19.909 itself invalidated. They argued it was overly 00:16:19.909 --> 00:16:22.350 broad and that the ideas in it were not new. 00:16:22.879 --> 00:16:25.220 They started a crowdfunding campaign to pay for 00:16:25.220 --> 00:16:28.100 the legal fees and went hunting for prior art. 00:16:28.279 --> 00:16:32.500 Proof that these ideas existed before 1996. Exactly. 00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:35.200 And they found it. They found examples from academic 00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:38.159 projects from early Internet radio, all showing 00:16:38.159 --> 00:16:40.919 that the concept of episodic audio was not some 00:16:40.919 --> 00:16:43.419 novel invention by this one company. And the 00:16:43.419 --> 00:16:46.419 patent office agreed. They did. In April 2015, 00:16:46.820 --> 00:16:49.860 the USPTO invalidated the five key provisions 00:16:49.860 --> 00:16:51.639 of the patent they were using to sue people. 00:16:51.960 --> 00:16:54.320 They ruled that the patent was essentially worthless. 00:16:54.559 --> 00:16:56.600 It was a massive, massive victory. It's just 00:16:56.600 --> 00:16:59.419 a huge what if moment in Internet history. If 00:16:59.419 --> 00:17:02.000 the EFF hadn't won that fight, this conversation 00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:03.899 we're having right now might not be possible 00:17:03.899 --> 00:17:06.619 or we'd be paying a royalty to have it. It's 00:17:06.619 --> 00:17:08.960 that significant. It kept the medium open. OK, 00:17:09.019 --> 00:17:11.519 so podcasting survived the wars. It survived 00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:14.779 the trademark grabs and the patent trolls. But 00:17:14.779 --> 00:17:16.740 it was still pretty niche. When did it actually 00:17:16.740 --> 00:17:18.779 go mainstream? When did it become something your 00:17:18.779 --> 00:17:20.720 parents had heard of? The date you want to circle 00:17:20.720 --> 00:17:24.039 on your calendar is June 2005. That was the turning 00:17:24.039 --> 00:17:26.559 point. And what happened in June 2005? Apple 00:17:26.559 --> 00:17:29.900 released iTunes 4 .9. An iTunes update. That 00:17:29.900 --> 00:17:32.680 seems so mundane. Why was that specific update 00:17:32.680 --> 00:17:36.130 so important? Because before iTunes 4 .9, listening 00:17:36.130 --> 00:17:39.009 to a podcast was, frankly, a pain. You had to 00:17:39.009 --> 00:17:42.289 be a bit of a nerd. You had to find the RSS feed 00:17:42.289 --> 00:17:45.130 URL, which was this long string of text. You 00:17:45.130 --> 00:17:47.009 have to copy it, open a separate program like 00:17:47.009 --> 00:17:50.130 iPodder, paste the URL in, download the file, 00:17:50.269 --> 00:17:53.170 then plug your iPod into your computer and manually 00:17:53.170 --> 00:17:55.970 drag the MP3 file over. It was like a six step 00:17:55.970 --> 00:17:58.650 process. The barrier to entry was huge. It was. 00:17:58.730 --> 00:18:02.650 iTunes 4 .9 changed everything. It added a podcast. 00:18:03.109 --> 00:18:04.670 directory right into the iTunes store suddenly 00:18:04.670 --> 00:18:07.130 you didn't need to know what RSS was you just 00:18:07.130 --> 00:18:09.609 browsed a directory saw a show you liked and 00:18:09.609 --> 00:18:12.089 clicked subscribe one click one click and the 00:18:12.089 --> 00:18:13.890 next time you sync your iPod the new episodes 00:18:13.890 --> 00:18:16.410 were just there it completely removed the technical 00:18:16.410 --> 00:18:18.650 fiction it opened the floodgates to millions 00:18:18.650 --> 00:18:21.369 of regular non -technical users and once you 00:18:21.369 --> 00:18:23.970 have an audience you get stars we have to talk 00:18:23.970 --> 00:18:27.150 about Ricky Gervais the first true podcasting 00:18:27.150 --> 00:18:30.500 superstar In 2006, after the success of The Office, 00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:32.980 he, Stephen Merchant, and Carl Pilkington took 00:18:32.980 --> 00:18:35.160 their old radio show and turned it into a podcast. 00:18:35.619 --> 00:18:37.839 The Ricky Gervais Show. But they did something 00:18:37.839 --> 00:18:40.359 really radical at the time. They charged for 00:18:40.359 --> 00:18:43.059 it. They put it on audible .co .uk and changed 00:18:43.059 --> 00:18:46.500 95 pence per episode. Which seems so wild now 00:18:46.500 --> 00:18:49.720 in a world of free ad -supported shows. But it 00:18:49.720 --> 00:18:52.880 worked. It worked spectacularly. It proved that 00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:55.220 people were willing to open their wallets for 00:18:55.220 --> 00:18:57.420 high -quality audio content, and the numbers 00:18:57.420 --> 00:18:59.700 it did were just mind -boggling for the time. 00:18:59.980 --> 00:19:04.700 By 2011, it had over 300 million unique downloads. 00:19:05.079 --> 00:19:07.279 And that led to a little bit of a rivalry, didn't 00:19:07.279 --> 00:19:09.400 it, with Adam Carolla back in the U .S.? A little 00:19:09.400 --> 00:19:12.460 bit of a friendly rivalry, yeah. Adam Carolla's 00:19:12.460 --> 00:19:14.359 show was also getting massive numbers, and at 00:19:14.359 --> 00:19:16.380 one point he claimed the Guinness World Record 00:19:16.380 --> 00:19:18.819 for the most downloaded podcast with something 00:19:18.819 --> 00:19:22.339 like 60 million downloads. Gervais' show had 00:19:22.339 --> 00:19:24.940 way more than that. It had five times that. But 00:19:24.940 --> 00:19:27.339 Guinness seemed to have ignored the UK numbers 00:19:27.339 --> 00:19:29.359 or maybe the data wasn't submitted properly. 00:19:29.539 --> 00:19:31.680 It just highlighted how much of a Wild West it 00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:34.240 still was. No one really knew how to accurately 00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:36.859 count listeners or compare shows globally. The 00:19:36.859 --> 00:19:39.160 metrics were a mess. A total mess. Is it downloaded? 00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:40.980 Listen, what if someone downloads it but never 00:19:40.980 --> 00:19:43.480 plays it? The industry is still arguing about 00:19:43.480 --> 00:19:45.920 that today. But regardless of who held the record, 00:19:46.099 --> 00:19:50.349 by 2007 it was clear. Podcasting was doing what 00:19:50.349 --> 00:19:53.329 radio had done for decades, but without the limitations. 00:19:53.769 --> 00:19:57.009 It was officially a disruptive medium. Radio 00:19:57.009 --> 00:19:59.230 is built on scarcity. There are only so many 00:19:59.230 --> 00:20:01.769 frequencies on the FM dial. That scarcity makes 00:20:01.769 --> 00:20:04.430 the licenses valuable, and it leads to very mainstream, 00:20:04.809 --> 00:20:08.190 advertiser -friendly programming. But the internet... 00:20:08.410 --> 00:20:10.410 has infinite shelf space infinite shelf space 00:20:10.410 --> 00:20:13.069 you can have a million podcasts that fractures 00:20:13.069 --> 00:20:15.950 the audience into a million tiny niches which 00:20:15.950 --> 00:20:18.069 is a nightmare for traditional advertising models 00:20:18.069 --> 00:20:20.730 but it's amazing for listeners speaking of all 00:20:20.730 --> 00:20:22.430 those niches let's talk about how the content 00:20:22.430 --> 00:20:24.829 itself started to evolve because for a long time 00:20:24.829 --> 00:20:27.130 the stereotype was just two guys talking about 00:20:27.130 --> 00:20:29.809 movies the two dudes in a basement trope and 00:20:29.809 --> 00:20:31.839 look there was a lot of that But very quickly, 00:20:31.940 --> 00:20:33.980 people started to push the boundaries of what 00:20:33.980 --> 00:20:36.039 an audio show could be. The biggest evolution, 00:20:36.140 --> 00:20:39.039 I think, was the rebirth of the audio drama. 00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:42.339 Fiction podcasts, movies for your ears. Exactly. 00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:45.259 This wasn't just an audio book with one narrator. 00:20:45.480 --> 00:20:48.380 This was a return to the golden age of radio 00:20:48.380 --> 00:20:52.299 plays from the 1930s and 40s. Full cast, sound 00:20:52.299 --> 00:20:56.420 effects, original music. It was incredibly ambitious. 00:20:56.819 --> 00:20:58.900 And it started attracting some serious talent. 00:20:59.309 --> 00:21:01.430 The source has mentioned actors like Demi Moore 00:21:01.430 --> 00:21:04.029 and Matthew McConaughey lending their voices 00:21:04.029 --> 00:21:06.349 to these projects. It wasn't just indie productions 00:21:06.349 --> 00:21:09.210 anymore. Major Hollywood studios got into the 00:21:09.210 --> 00:21:12.549 game. Marvel launched The Wolverine, The Long 00:21:12.549 --> 00:21:17.289 Night series, DC, Netflix, Spotify. They all 00:21:17.289 --> 00:21:19.289 started creating these high -budget cinematic 00:21:19.289 --> 00:21:21.670 audio experiences. There was that interesting 00:21:21.670 --> 00:21:24.099 data point about the pandemic, too. When lockdown 00:21:24.099 --> 00:21:26.619 started, a lot of podcast listening went down 00:21:26.619 --> 00:21:28.319 because people weren't commuting. Right. The 00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:30.940 drive time audience vanished overnight. But fiction 00:21:30.940 --> 00:21:33.460 podcasts saw a huge spike. Their downloads jumped 00:21:33.460 --> 00:21:35.460 something like 19 percent. Which makes perfect 00:21:35.460 --> 00:21:37.299 sense. We were all trapped at home, anxious, 00:21:37.380 --> 00:21:39.140 staring at the same four walls. The last thing 00:21:39.140 --> 00:21:41.559 we wanted was more news. We wanted escapism. 00:21:41.660 --> 00:21:45.759 Pure escapism. And audio can be even more immersive 00:21:45.759 --> 00:21:48.180 than video sometimes. When you're watching a 00:21:48.180 --> 00:21:51.009 movie, you see the edges of the set. In an audio 00:21:51.009 --> 00:21:54.150 drama, the monster is as big and as terrifying 00:21:54.150 --> 00:21:56.670 as your own imagination can make it. Then there 00:21:56.670 --> 00:21:59.069 are other formats, like the podcast novel. A 00:21:59.069 --> 00:22:01.809 really clever strategy. Authors like Scott Sigler 00:22:01.809 --> 00:22:04.569 would serialize their novels, releasing one chapter 00:22:04.569 --> 00:22:07.750 a week as a free podcast. They'd build up a huge 00:22:07.750 --> 00:22:10.289 loyal audience. And then use that audience to 00:22:10.289 --> 00:22:12.170 get a publishing deal. Exactly. They'd go to 00:22:12.170 --> 00:22:14.890 a publisher and say, look, I have 50 ,000 people 00:22:14.890 --> 00:22:16.990 who listen to every episode. They're guaranteed 00:22:16.990 --> 00:22:20.430 customers if you print this book. flipped the 00:22:20.430 --> 00:22:22.470 publishing model on its head. I also remember 00:22:22.470 --> 00:22:26.250 the enhanced podcasts or slidecasts. I had an 00:22:26.250 --> 00:22:28.730 old iPod that could do that. The artwork would 00:22:28.730 --> 00:22:30.710 change to show you a picture or a graph while 00:22:30.710 --> 00:22:32.589 you were listening. It was a great idea, especially 00:22:32.589 --> 00:22:35.569 for education. Apple even patented a technology 00:22:35.569 --> 00:22:39.210 in 2012 called audio hyperlinking. It was supposed 00:22:39.210 --> 00:22:42.549 to embed these inaudible sonic pulses into the 00:22:42.549 --> 00:22:44.950 audio. Inaudible pulses. That sounds like something 00:22:44.950 --> 00:22:48.140 out of a spy movie. It does. The idea was these 00:22:48.140 --> 00:22:50.619 pulses would trigger actions on your device. 00:22:50.859 --> 00:22:53.220 So a professor could record a lecture, and as 00:22:53.220 --> 00:22:55.460 they say, and as you can see on this slide, the 00:22:55.460 --> 00:22:57.759 pulse would automatically make the correct slide 00:22:57.759 --> 00:23:00.559 appear on your screen. Why did that never really 00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:03.849 take off? Honestly. Video just got easier and 00:23:03.849 --> 00:23:06.869 cheaper. Once streaming from YouTube became ubiquitous, 00:23:07.009 --> 00:23:09.630 why bother with a clunky slide cast when you 00:23:09.630 --> 00:23:12.650 can just watch a full video of the lecture? It 00:23:12.650 --> 00:23:15.289 was a solution for a problem that bandwidth eventually 00:23:15.289 --> 00:23:17.769 solved. Okay, so the content is evolving, the 00:23:17.769 --> 00:23:20.029 tech is stabilizing, but we have to look at the 00:23:20.029 --> 00:23:22.730 global picture. This stopped being just a North 00:23:22.730 --> 00:23:24.890 American and European thing very quickly. It 00:23:24.890 --> 00:23:27.250 really did. The growth internationally has been 00:23:27.250 --> 00:23:30.049 explosive. You look at China, for instance. By 00:23:30.049 --> 00:23:34.069 2023, there were over 220 million podcast listeners 00:23:34.069 --> 00:23:36.670 there. It's a colossal market. And India is the 00:23:36.670 --> 00:23:38.670 third largest market in the world. Around 95 00:23:38.670 --> 00:23:41.529 million monthly listeners back in 2021, and it's 00:23:41.529 --> 00:23:44.089 only grown since. But for me, the most interesting 00:23:44.089 --> 00:23:47.500 statistic is market penetration. as in what percentage 00:23:47.500 --> 00:23:49.460 of the actual population is listening. Right. 00:23:49.720 --> 00:23:52.700 And the world leader there, by a long shot, is 00:23:52.700 --> 00:23:57.309 South Korea. In 2020, a survey found that 58%, 00:23:57.309 --> 00:24:00.049 nearly 6 out of 10 people, had listened to a 00:24:00.049 --> 00:24:02.829 podcast in the last month. 58%. That's incredible. 00:24:03.049 --> 00:24:05.450 The U .S. was, what, half that at the time? Less 00:24:05.450 --> 00:24:08.529 than half. Spain also has huge penetration, around 00:24:08.529 --> 00:24:12.250 40%. It shows how deeply embedded it's become 00:24:12.250 --> 00:24:14.690 in the culture in some parts of the world. What's 00:24:14.690 --> 00:24:16.430 the driving force behind that? Why did it grow 00:24:16.430 --> 00:24:19.109 so big so fast globally? It comes back to that 00:24:19.109 --> 00:24:21.529 low barrier to entry. To start a radio station, 00:24:21.789 --> 00:24:24.259 you need a government license. A transmission 00:24:24.259 --> 00:24:27.559 tower? Millions of dollars. To start a podcast, 00:24:27.759 --> 00:24:29.960 you need a decent microphone, a computer, and 00:24:29.960 --> 00:24:31.859 some basic software. And maybe some blankets 00:24:31.859 --> 00:24:34.180 on the wall for acoustic quieting. The official 00:24:34.180 --> 00:24:36.220 term for recording in your closet. I think every 00:24:36.220 --> 00:24:38.740 podcaster has a closet era. It's a rite of passage. 00:24:39.059 --> 00:24:41.960 But that rawness, that intimacy, is actually 00:24:41.960 --> 00:24:44.240 part of the appeal. That's why public figures 00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:46.980 started flocking to it. Absolutely. The New York 00:24:46.980 --> 00:24:50.200 Times had a great piece on this in 2025. They 00:24:50.200 --> 00:24:52.599 argued that long form podcast interviews had 00:24:52.599 --> 00:24:55.079 basically replaced the late night talk show or 00:24:55.079 --> 00:24:57.980 the magazine cover story as the go to place for 00:24:57.980 --> 00:25:00.640 a major interview. Is that because it's a friendlier 00:25:00.640 --> 00:25:03.200 environment or because they have more control? 00:25:03.460 --> 00:25:05.819 I think it's a bit of both, but mostly it's about 00:25:05.819 --> 00:25:08.099 the format. If you go on a late night show, you 00:25:08.099 --> 00:25:10.880 get. what, six minutes between commercials. You 00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:12.940 tell a pre -approved anecdote and you're done. 00:25:13.039 --> 00:25:15.099 It's a performance. Whereas on a podcast, you 00:25:15.099 --> 00:25:16.799 can sit down for two or three hours. You can 00:25:16.799 --> 00:25:19.960 relax. You can have a real meandering, candid 00:25:19.960 --> 00:25:22.859 conversation. It feels more authentic, both for 00:25:22.859 --> 00:25:24.859 the guest and for the listener. It creates that 00:25:24.859 --> 00:25:27.319 strange parasocial relationship where you feel 00:25:27.319 --> 00:25:30.000 like you actually know the hosts. And that parasocial 00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:33.200 bond is the currency of the entire podcast economy. 00:25:34.059 --> 00:25:36.059 Which brings us to the final piece of the puzzle. 00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:39.799 The money. How did this thing finally figure 00:25:39.799 --> 00:25:42.579 out how to make money? The great revenue puzzle. 00:25:43.359 --> 00:25:46.359 Because for a very long time, the story was that 00:25:46.359 --> 00:25:49.279 podcasting was hugely popular but generated almost 00:25:49.279 --> 00:25:51.619 no revenue. That was the narrative as recently 00:25:51.619 --> 00:25:54.799 as 2019. Advertisers were hesitant. The tracking 00:25:54.799 --> 00:25:57.240 was poor. They couldn't be sure if people were 00:25:57.240 --> 00:25:59.019 actually hearing their ads or just hitting the 00:25:59.019 --> 00:26:01.480 skip button. So the creators had to get creative. 00:26:01.980 --> 00:26:04.680 They did. They pioneered new models. The most 00:26:04.680 --> 00:26:07.220 important one was probably direct support through 00:26:07.220 --> 00:26:11.480 platforms like Patreon, crowdfunding. The buy 00:26:11.480 --> 00:26:14.059 me a coffee model. Exactly. Suddenly, you didn't 00:26:14.059 --> 00:26:16.380 need a million listeners to make a living. If 00:26:16.380 --> 00:26:18.339 you had a thousand true fans who were willing 00:26:18.339 --> 00:26:21.160 to chip in $5 a month, you had a sustainable 00:26:21.160 --> 00:26:23.980 career. It allowed for incredibly neat shows 00:26:23.980 --> 00:26:25.980 to thrive without needing a mattress sponsor. 00:26:26.359 --> 00:26:29.140 And then came the live shows, the touring model. 00:26:29.470 --> 00:26:31.450 Podcasters realized they had built these passionate 00:26:31.450 --> 00:26:33.609 communities who would actually pay money to see 00:26:33.609 --> 00:26:36.730 them live. Shows like My Favorite Murder or The 00:26:36.730 --> 00:26:39.250 Dollops started selling out thousand seat theaters. 00:26:39.549 --> 00:26:42.410 They became legitimate touring acts like rock 00:26:42.410 --> 00:26:45.230 bands. And so we've come full circle. We have 00:26:45.230 --> 00:26:47.029 a thriving industry. We have multiple revenue 00:26:47.029 --> 00:26:49.670 models. And we're back where we started this 00:26:49.670 --> 00:26:53.309 conversation. The video paradox. The great blurring 00:26:53.309 --> 00:26:57.769 of the lines. Is a creator a YouTuber or a podcaster? 00:26:58.569 --> 00:27:01.589 In 2026, that distinction is almost meaningless. 00:27:02.109 --> 00:27:04.890 Web TV shows are distributed as video podcasts. 00:27:05.730 --> 00:27:07.789 Vodcasts are no longer the exception. They're 00:27:07.789 --> 00:27:10.470 the norm for any big show. We started with audio 00:27:10.470 --> 00:27:12.730 blogging, a rebellion against mainstream media, 00:27:12.910 --> 00:27:14.950 fought tooth and nail to keep it open and audio 00:27:14.950 --> 00:27:17.119 focused, and somehow we've ended up... basically 00:27:17.119 --> 00:27:20.099 creating our own version of on -demand television. 00:27:20.579 --> 00:27:22.500 But it's still different, isn't it, the spirit 00:27:22.500 --> 00:27:25.559 of it? Even with cameras, a video podcast doesn't 00:27:25.559 --> 00:27:28.200 feel like a polished network TV show. It doesn't. 00:27:28.200 --> 00:27:30.400 The structure is still there. The long, authentic 00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:33.380 conversation, the niche focus, it still feels 00:27:33.380 --> 00:27:35.279 like you're just listening in on two people in 00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:37.039 a room trying to figure something out. The cameras 00:27:37.039 --> 00:27:39.400 are just there to capture it. So when we look 00:27:39.400 --> 00:27:41.579 back at this whole journey from guerrilla media 00:27:41.579 --> 00:27:45.160 to a billion -user video platform, what's the 00:27:45.160 --> 00:27:48.400 big takeaway? that the open web can win. This 00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:52.420 was a medium born from open standards, RSS, MP3s, 00:27:52.440 --> 00:27:55.339 a decentralized network. And every time a corporation 00:27:55.339 --> 00:27:57.500 tried to lock it down, the community fought back 00:27:57.500 --> 00:28:01.269 and won. Apple tried to own the name. They failed. 00:28:01.369 --> 00:28:03.529 The patent trolls tried to own the technology. 00:28:03.789 --> 00:28:06.470 They failed. It's a testament to the resilience 00:28:06.470 --> 00:28:10.269 of a simple, open idea. And its power comes from 00:28:10.269 --> 00:28:12.569 serving the niches. The long tale that Chris 00:28:12.569 --> 00:28:15.630 Anderson wrote about. Exactly. No TV executive 00:28:15.630 --> 00:28:17.829 in their right mind would green light a weekly 00:28:17.829 --> 00:28:20.029 show about, I don't know, the history of concrete. 00:28:20.920 --> 00:28:23.279 or mycology, but there's a podcast for that, 00:28:23.400 --> 00:28:25.319 and it can find its audience anywhere in the 00:28:25.319 --> 00:28:27.599 world and be successful. That's the magic. It 00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:29.599 is. Okay, so I want to leave our listener with 00:28:29.599 --> 00:28:31.619 a final thought to chew on, something to mull 00:28:31.619 --> 00:28:33.500 over. That's right. In this world we now live 00:28:33.500 --> 00:28:35.500 in, where a billion people are watching podcasts, 00:28:35.859 --> 00:28:38.539 have we lost something? Have we sacrificed that 00:28:38.539 --> 00:28:41.339 original magic, the theater of the mind, in exchange 00:28:41.339 --> 00:28:44.099 for more engagement and bigger ad dollars? Or 00:28:44.099 --> 00:28:46.839 have we just reinvented television, but this 00:28:46.839 --> 00:28:49.339 time on our own terms, without the suits and 00:28:49.339 --> 00:28:50.960 the gatekeepers telling us what we're allowed 00:28:50.960 --> 00:28:53.059 to make? That's the billion -dollar question, 00:28:53.160 --> 00:28:56.359 isn't it? I think as long as the core of it remains 00:28:56.359 --> 00:28:59.619 an authentic conversation, the medium will be 00:28:59.619 --> 00:29:01.420 fine, whether there's a camera in the room or 00:29:01.420 --> 00:29:04.500 not. I certainly hope so. If you enjoyed this 00:29:04.500 --> 00:29:06.519 deep dive, please consider rating or reviewing 00:29:06.519 --> 00:29:09.000 the show. And hey, maybe start your own. All 00:29:09.000 --> 00:29:11.420 you really need is a microphone, a closet, and 00:29:11.420 --> 00:29:13.390 something you're passionate about. Thanks for 00:29:13.390 --> 00:29:15.289 listening. Or for watching. We'll see you next 00:29:15.289 --> 00:29:15.509 time.