WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.100 Welcome back to the Deep Dive. Today we are opening 00:00:03.100 --> 00:00:06.280 a file that I think for most people brings up 00:00:06.280 --> 00:00:08.640 a really instinctual reaction, even if they don't 00:00:08.640 --> 00:00:11.279 know all the specifics. We are heading into the 00:00:11.279 --> 00:00:14.000 dark, windswept territory of Saddleworth Moor. 00:00:14.119 --> 00:00:17.219 We are talking about the Moors murders. It's 00:00:17.219 --> 00:00:19.500 a heavy one. It really is. Yeah. And you're so 00:00:19.500 --> 00:00:21.879 right about that instinctual reaction. This isn't 00:00:21.879 --> 00:00:25.100 just a true crime story. It's arguably the moment 00:00:25.100 --> 00:00:27.359 the British psyche fundamentally changed in the 00:00:27.359 --> 00:00:30.649 20th century. Changed how? It shattered a specific 00:00:30.649 --> 00:00:34.170 kind of post -war innocence. The idea that kids 00:00:34.170 --> 00:00:36.450 could play out in the street until dark and be 00:00:36.450 --> 00:00:40.969 safe. That idea, it died on those moors. I want 00:00:40.969 --> 00:00:42.950 to start with the landscape itself because in 00:00:42.950 --> 00:00:44.829 all the source material, it feels like the moor 00:00:44.829 --> 00:00:47.229 is a character in this story. It absolutely is. 00:00:47.270 --> 00:00:49.030 It's not just a dumping ground. It feels like 00:00:49.030 --> 00:00:50.950 an accomplice. That's the perfect word for it. 00:00:51.170 --> 00:00:53.270 Saddleworth Moor, which is just outside Manchester, 00:00:53.570 --> 00:00:57.299 is this vast peat -covered... desolate place. 00:00:57.479 --> 00:00:59.359 It's beautiful, you know, in a very stark, rugged 00:00:59.359 --> 00:01:01.780 way. But it's silent. And that's what they needed. 00:01:02.000 --> 00:01:04.260 That's what they relied on. The two people we're 00:01:04.260 --> 00:01:06.159 discussing today, Ian Brady and Myra Hindley, 00:01:06.239 --> 00:01:08.659 they weaponized that silence, that emptiness. 00:01:09.120 --> 00:01:11.760 It's this wild place right on the edge of the 00:01:11.760 --> 00:01:13.799 industrial sprawl of Manchester, a place where 00:01:13.799 --> 00:01:18.280 secrets can be buried. And the peat, it preserves 00:01:18.280 --> 00:01:20.450 things in a very eerie way. We have a lot of 00:01:20.450 --> 00:01:23.230 source material here, investigative files, biographies, 00:01:23.230 --> 00:01:25.829 trial transcripts. But our mission for this deep 00:01:25.829 --> 00:01:28.129 dive isn't just to list a timeline of events. 00:01:28.310 --> 00:01:30.510 Anyone can look up a date on Wikipedia. Right. 00:01:30.609 --> 00:01:32.510 We need to try and understand the mechanism of 00:01:32.510 --> 00:01:35.530 this partnership. How do two individuals lock 00:01:35.530 --> 00:01:38.409 into a psychological spiral that leads to the 00:01:38.409 --> 00:01:41.230 abduction and murder of five children and teenagers? 00:01:41.530 --> 00:01:43.450 That is the absolute core question. It's what 00:01:43.450 --> 00:01:45.969 psychologists call fully a do a madness of two. 00:01:46.069 --> 00:01:48.569 A shared madness. A shared psychosis. And the 00:01:48.569 --> 00:01:50.379 source is also. suggest that neither of them, 00:01:50.400 --> 00:01:52.659 on their own, might have committed these specific 00:01:52.659 --> 00:01:55.700 atrocities. It required a truly toxic chemical 00:01:55.700 --> 00:01:59.459 reaction between Brady's existing sadism and 00:01:59.459 --> 00:02:02.000 Henley's, well, her capacity for compliance. 00:02:02.480 --> 00:02:04.920 It's all about how their individual pathologies 00:02:04.920 --> 00:02:07.519 interlocked and amplified each other. We are 00:02:07.519 --> 00:02:10.259 going to get into some of the nuggets from the 00:02:10.259 --> 00:02:12.780 files that really just stand out. The secret 00:02:12.780 --> 00:02:14.800 tape recording that silenced an entire courtroom. 00:02:15.580 --> 00:02:18.659 a lost glove used as a lure, and a forensic breakthrough 00:02:18.659 --> 00:02:22.719 that involved a pet dog. And the suitcase. Don't 00:02:22.719 --> 00:02:24.680 forget the suitcase. The suitcase left at the 00:02:24.680 --> 00:02:26.900 train station that broke the whole case wide 00:02:26.900 --> 00:02:29.620 open. But we have to start with the people. Let's 00:02:29.620 --> 00:02:32.419 look at Ian Brady first. The sources really paint 00:02:32.419 --> 00:02:34.680 a picture of someone who was, for lack of a better 00:02:34.680 --> 00:02:37.860 term, born wrong. Is that a fair assessment or 00:02:37.860 --> 00:02:40.349 is that just hindsight bias? I think it's a bit 00:02:40.349 --> 00:02:43.810 of both, but the red flags with Brady were incredibly 00:02:43.810 --> 00:02:46.669 distinct from a very early age. He was born Ian 00:02:46.669 --> 00:02:49.150 Duncan Stewart in the Gorbals area of Glasgow, 00:02:49.449 --> 00:02:52.990 January 2nd, 1938. And the Gorbals in the 30s 00:02:52.990 --> 00:02:54.889 was a tough place. One of the toughest slums 00:02:54.889 --> 00:02:57.150 in Europe. And context here is absolutely key. 00:02:57.229 --> 00:02:59.229 He was illegitimate. He never knew his father. 00:02:59.650 --> 00:03:02.509 In 1930s Scotland, that carried a huge social 00:03:02.509 --> 00:03:05.469 stigma. His mother, a waitress named Peggy, had 00:03:05.469 --> 00:03:07.629 basically no support. So she had to give him 00:03:07.629 --> 00:03:10.750 up essentially to foster parents, the Sloans, 00:03:10.770 --> 00:03:12.830 when he was just a few months old. Which is a 00:03:12.830 --> 00:03:15.310 rough start for any kid, for sure. But plenty 00:03:15.310 --> 00:03:17.509 of children in the 30s and 40s were in foster 00:03:17.509 --> 00:03:19.530 care, came from broken homes. They didn't all 00:03:19.530 --> 00:03:22.590 grow up to, you know, read the Marquis de Sade 00:03:22.590 --> 00:03:25.330 and murder children. Exactly. That's the trap 00:03:25.330 --> 00:03:27.930 of trying to find a single cause. Environmental 00:03:27.930 --> 00:03:30.389 factors matter, but they are not predictive on 00:03:30.389 --> 00:03:33.069 their own. The difference with Brady was the 00:03:33.069 --> 00:03:37.389 early onset of this profound cruelty. We're not 00:03:37.389 --> 00:03:39.449 talking about a kid pulling wings off flies. 00:03:39.650 --> 00:03:41.469 No. We are talking about serious allegations 00:03:41.469 --> 00:03:44.939 that at age 10 he burned a cat alive. He was 00:03:44.939 --> 00:03:47.840 reported to have stoned dogs, to have cut the 00:03:47.840 --> 00:03:50.379 heads off rabbits. Now, later in life, Brady 00:03:50.379 --> 00:03:53.039 denied some of these specific instances. But 00:03:53.039 --> 00:03:55.219 the pattern of behavior, this complete lack of 00:03:55.219 --> 00:03:57.599 empathy for suffering creatures, it was noted 00:03:57.599 --> 00:03:59.479 by everyone around him. And that's the classic 00:03:59.479 --> 00:04:01.900 triad of sociopathy, right? Animal cruelty is 00:04:01.900 --> 00:04:04.240 often step one. It's like practicing on something 00:04:04.240 --> 00:04:06.699 helpless before you graduate to people. It is. 00:04:06.699 --> 00:04:08.520 It's a rehearsal. And when you combine that with 00:04:08.520 --> 00:04:11.120 a high intelligence that he used purely for manipulation, 00:04:11.580 --> 00:04:15.030 well, you have a problem. He was an above average 00:04:15.030 --> 00:04:17.949 student at Shawlins Academy, but he was bored. 00:04:18.149 --> 00:04:21.509 He was resentful. He quickly turned to housebreaking 00:04:21.509 --> 00:04:24.610 theft, smuggling lead seals from the docks. Which 00:04:24.610 --> 00:04:26.689 is how he ended up in the Borstal system. Right. 00:04:26.709 --> 00:04:29.230 And for... Our listeners, maybe younger ones 00:04:29.230 --> 00:04:31.810 or those outside the UK, can you clarify what 00:04:31.810 --> 00:04:34.589 Borstal actually was in this context? It sounds 00:04:34.589 --> 00:04:37.769 so Dickensian. It was essentially a youth detention 00:04:37.769 --> 00:04:41.350 center. But in 1950s Britain, it was an incredibly 00:04:41.350 --> 00:04:44.370 hard environment. The philosophy was to break 00:04:44.370 --> 00:04:47.189 rebellious spirits through hard labor and very 00:04:47.189 --> 00:04:49.370 strict discipline. And did it work on Brady? 00:04:49.529 --> 00:04:51.769 The opposite. He went to some of the toughest 00:04:51.769 --> 00:04:54.209 units, Hull and Hatfield. Instead of breaking 00:04:54.209 --> 00:04:56.949 him, it calcified him. It hardened him. He learned. 00:04:57.000 --> 00:04:58.839 to be quieter, more cunning, more secretive. 00:04:58.860 --> 00:05:01.439 He learned how to manipulate authority rather 00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:03.519 than just fighting it head on. So it was just 00:05:03.519 --> 00:05:06.379 a training ground for him. In a way, yes. It's 00:05:06.379 --> 00:05:08.600 where this intellectual pretension really kicks 00:05:08.600 --> 00:05:10.439 in, which I found so disturbing in the notes. 00:05:11.019 --> 00:05:13.680 After Borstal, he moves to Manchester to live 00:05:13.680 --> 00:05:15.560 with his mother and her new husband, Patrick 00:05:15.560 --> 00:05:18.040 Brady. That's where he gets the name. But he's 00:05:18.040 --> 00:05:20.980 not trying to reintegrate into society. He's 00:05:20.980 --> 00:05:23.459 building a philosophy to justify his hatred of 00:05:23.459 --> 00:05:25.420 it. He's building a justification for what he 00:05:25.420 --> 00:05:27.579 wants to do. Exactly. He taught himself German 00:05:27.579 --> 00:05:30.160 specifically so he could read Mein Kampf in the 00:05:30.160 --> 00:05:33.920 original text. He was obsessed with Nazi atrocities. 00:05:34.040 --> 00:05:36.100 And this is key. It wasn't out of historical 00:05:36.100 --> 00:05:38.759 interest. It was out of admiration. He admired 00:05:38.759 --> 00:05:41.600 the scale, the efficiency of the cruelty. He 00:05:41.600 --> 00:05:43.860 was reading the Marquis de Sade, exploring this 00:05:43.860 --> 00:05:46.240 philosophy of absolute power over other living 00:05:46.240 --> 00:05:48.959 things. He began to see himself as a superior 00:05:48.959 --> 00:05:51.930 man. Nietzschean superman. Yes, someone above 00:05:51.930 --> 00:05:54.430 the petty morality of the sheep all around him. 00:05:54.509 --> 00:05:57.250 He saw everyone else as insects. And on the outside, 00:05:57.410 --> 00:06:01.050 he was just, what, a clerk at a brewery? A stock 00:06:01.050 --> 00:06:04.069 clerk at a chemical firm, Millwards, living this 00:06:04.069 --> 00:06:07.050 completely mundane life. But in his head, he 00:06:07.050 --> 00:06:09.569 was a misunderstood genius, a predator walking 00:06:09.569 --> 00:06:12.470 among prey. His colleagues described him as having 00:06:12.470 --> 00:06:15.589 this calm, undisguised arrogance. He was punctual, 00:06:15.689 --> 00:06:18.709 quiet, but just seething with this dark superiority 00:06:18.709 --> 00:06:21.709 complex. Okay, so that's Brady. A loaded gun 00:06:21.709 --> 00:06:23.550 waiting for someone to pull the trigger. Right. 00:06:23.610 --> 00:06:26.009 And then you have Myra Hindley. And this is where 00:06:26.009 --> 00:06:28.829 the debate has always raged. Was she a monster 00:06:28.829 --> 00:06:31.509 in her own right or was she made into one? Because 00:06:31.509 --> 00:06:34.810 her background looks, well, surprisingly normal 00:06:34.810 --> 00:06:37.350 compared to his. On the surface, yes, it does. 00:06:37.430 --> 00:06:40.930 She was born in 1942 in Gorton, Manchester. Working 00:06:40.930 --> 00:06:43.370 class. She had a job as a typist. She had friends. 00:06:43.610 --> 00:06:45.870 She was even engaged to be married at one point. 00:06:45.990 --> 00:06:47.910 But when you scratch the surface, you find these 00:06:47.910 --> 00:06:51.410 cracks. Her father, Bob, was an alcoholic and 00:06:51.410 --> 00:06:54.310 by all accounts, extremely violent. There's that 00:06:54.310 --> 00:06:56.110 story about her father teaching her to fight. 00:06:56.189 --> 00:06:58.110 It feels like such a pivotal moment in her development. 00:06:58.370 --> 00:07:00.689 It's a crucial anecdote, I think. She was eight 00:07:00.689 --> 00:07:02.850 years old. A boy in the neighborhood scratched 00:07:02.850 --> 00:07:05.709 her face during a playground scuffle. She came 00:07:05.709 --> 00:07:07.790 home crying, you know, expecting comfort from 00:07:07.790 --> 00:07:10.269 her dad. And she didn't get it. She got the opposite. 00:07:10.670 --> 00:07:13.370 He didn't comfort her. He threatened to leather 00:07:13.370 --> 00:07:16.420 her, to beat her. if she didn't go back out there 00:07:16.420 --> 00:07:18.660 and retaliate. So she did. She went out, found 00:07:18.660 --> 00:07:20.660 the boy, and punched him until he fell down. 00:07:20.860 --> 00:07:24.439 That teaches a child a very specific and I'd 00:07:24.439 --> 00:07:27.860 say very dangerous lesson about how the world 00:07:27.860 --> 00:07:31.019 works. It does. It teaches you that violence 00:07:31.019 --> 00:07:35.000 is the only way to avoid punishment. If you are 00:07:35.000 --> 00:07:37.579 weak, you get hurt. Not just by your enemies, 00:07:37.759 --> 00:07:39.899 but by your own protector. You have to align 00:07:39.899 --> 00:07:42.060 yourself with the source of power to be safe. 00:07:42.459 --> 00:07:45.160 Precisely. It normalizes aggression as a survival 00:07:45.160 --> 00:07:48.680 tactic. Then you add to that the trauma she experienced 00:07:48.680 --> 00:07:51.899 as a teenager. Her close friend, a boy named 00:07:51.899 --> 00:07:54.399 Michael Higgins, drowned in a local reservoir. 00:07:54.620 --> 00:07:57.560 And she blamed herself. Deeply. He had invited 00:07:57.560 --> 00:07:59.720 her to go with him that day, but she went somewhere 00:07:59.720 --> 00:08:02.480 else instead. She carried this immense survivor's 00:08:02.480 --> 00:08:05.040 guilt over it. That kind of guilt can make a 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:08.439 person incredibly vulnerable. looking for answers 00:08:08.439 --> 00:08:11.000 for some kind of structure. And she was. She 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:13.420 converted to Catholicism after his death, taking 00:08:13.420 --> 00:08:15.819 the confirmation name Veronica. She was searching 00:08:15.819 --> 00:08:18.819 for redemption or for rules or just for someone 00:08:18.819 --> 00:08:20.939 to tell her how to live. She even broke off her 00:08:20.939 --> 00:08:22.980 engagement because she said the man was too immature. 00:08:23.000 --> 00:08:25.060 She wanted someone strong. And unfortunately, 00:08:25.180 --> 00:08:28.899 the strong person she found was Ian Brady. They 00:08:28.899 --> 00:08:32.019 met at Millward's Merchandising in 1961. She 00:08:32.019 --> 00:08:34.720 was a typist. He was a clerk. And if you look 00:08:34.720 --> 00:08:36.679 at her diary entries from the source material, 00:08:37.059 --> 00:08:40.080 it was an immediate obsessive infatuation. What 00:08:40.080 --> 00:08:43.720 was it about him? He was quiet, arrogant, not 00:08:43.720 --> 00:08:45.860 exactly Prince Charming. He was fascinated by 00:08:45.860 --> 00:08:48.159 him because he was aloof. He ignored her for 00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:50.120 months. He barely acknowledged her existence. 00:08:50.539 --> 00:08:52.539 Which, for someone with her background, that 00:08:52.539 --> 00:08:54.779 need to please the dominant male to prove her 00:08:54.779 --> 00:08:57.440 worth. that probably felt like a challenge she 00:08:57.440 --> 00:09:00.360 had to conquer. It was the hook. It was irresistible. 00:09:00.500 --> 00:09:02.580 She wrote about him constantly in her diary. 00:09:02.720 --> 00:09:04.720 She dressed up for work every day, hoping he'd 00:09:04.720 --> 00:09:07.580 notice. When he finally asked her to the cinema 00:09:07.580 --> 00:09:11.200 in December 1961, it wasn't a date in the romantic 00:09:11.200 --> 00:09:14.159 sense we'd think of. It was the beginning of 00:09:14.159 --> 00:09:16.360 an indoctrination. This part of the timeline 00:09:16.360 --> 00:09:18.980 reads like a cult recruitment of one person. 00:09:19.080 --> 00:09:21.740 It is so systematic. It's brainwashing, plain 00:09:21.740 --> 00:09:24.750 and simple. Brady systematically dismantled her 00:09:24.750 --> 00:09:27.690 entire worldview. Their dates were watching X 00:09:27.690 --> 00:09:30.610 -rated films and drinking German wine. He introduced 00:09:30.610 --> 00:09:33.429 her to his library, Nietzsche, Dostoevsky, all 00:09:33.429 --> 00:09:35.690 the Nazi literature. He'd play recordings of 00:09:35.690 --> 00:09:37.970 Hitler's speeches. And he went after her faith. 00:09:38.149 --> 00:09:40.070 He attacked it directly. He convinced her that 00:09:40.070 --> 00:09:42.190 God was a myth, that her Catholic faith was just 00:09:42.190 --> 00:09:44.450 a crutch for the weak. He systematically replaced 00:09:44.450 --> 00:09:47.590 her morality with his nihilistic, power -obsessed 00:09:47.590 --> 00:09:49.899 philosophy. There's that quote she gave later 00:09:49.899 --> 00:09:51.899 that really stuck with me. She said she would 00:09:51.899 --> 00:09:53.840 have believed the moon was made of green cheese 00:09:53.840 --> 00:09:56.879 if Ian Brady had told her so. And that right 00:09:56.879 --> 00:10:00.639 there is the definition of the folia do. She 00:10:00.639 --> 00:10:03.960 completely subsumed her identity into his. She 00:10:03.960 --> 00:10:06.440 wasn't Myra Hindley anymore. She was an extension 00:10:06.440 --> 00:10:08.639 of Ian Brady. The physical transformation is 00:10:08.639 --> 00:10:11.039 part of that, too. A huge part. She dyed her 00:10:11.039 --> 00:10:13.840 hair peroxide blonde. wore bright crimson lipstick, 00:10:14.120 --> 00:10:16.879 leather jackets, high boots. She was dressing 00:10:16.879 --> 00:10:20.100 herself as the Aryan ideal that he fetishized. 00:10:20.559 --> 00:10:23.539 They created this hermetically sealed world where 00:10:23.539 --> 00:10:26.120 the only approval that mattered was his. She 00:10:26.120 --> 00:10:28.299 cut off her friends. She became distant from 00:10:28.299 --> 00:10:30.600 her family. She was living entirely in Brady's 00:10:30.600 --> 00:10:32.480 orbit. And they weren't just reading books and 00:10:32.480 --> 00:10:34.639 playing dress -up. They were preparing for something. 00:10:34.919 --> 00:10:37.360 The outline mentions they joined a rifle club. 00:10:37.580 --> 00:10:39.690 They were arming themselves. Hindley joined a 00:10:39.690 --> 00:10:41.769 rifle club to learn to shoot. She eventually 00:10:41.769 --> 00:10:44.710 managed to buy two handguns privately, a Webley 00:10:44.710 --> 00:10:48.090 .45 revolver and a Smith & Resin .38. They were 00:10:48.090 --> 00:10:50.710 taking explicit photographs of each other, constantly 00:10:50.710 --> 00:10:53.350 testing boundaries. And then Brady started talking 00:10:53.350 --> 00:10:57.450 openly about committing the perfect murder. This 00:10:57.450 --> 00:10:59.549 concept of the perfect murder, it wasn't just 00:10:59.549 --> 00:11:01.669 some idle fantasy. He was referencing historical 00:11:01.669 --> 00:11:04.909 cases, wasn't he? He was obsessed with Leopold 00:11:04.909 --> 00:11:07.850 and Lode. The two wealthy American students in 00:11:07.850 --> 00:11:10.830 the 1920s. Exactly. Who killed a boy just to 00:11:10.830 --> 00:11:12.590 see if they could get away with it. To prove 00:11:12.590 --> 00:11:15.870 their intellectual superiority. Brady saw murder 00:11:15.870 --> 00:11:18.649 in the same way. He called it an existential 00:11:18.649 --> 00:11:22.509 exercise. An existential exercise. That phrase 00:11:22.509 --> 00:11:25.649 is just chilling. It implies they wanted to kill 00:11:25.649 --> 00:11:28.350 not for passion, not for money, not for revenge, 00:11:28.470 --> 00:11:31.990 but just to prove they could. To prove they were 00:11:31.990 --> 00:11:35.509 superior to the law, to society, to life itself. 00:11:35.929 --> 00:11:38.129 To prove they were the superior beings they'd 00:11:38.129 --> 00:11:39.990 read about in Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment. 00:11:40.309 --> 00:11:42.950 Brady identified with the character, with Skolnikov, 00:11:43.070 --> 00:11:45.549 the idea that extraordinary men have a right 00:11:45.549 --> 00:11:48.789 to commit crimes. In July of 1963, they stopped 00:11:48.789 --> 00:11:51.039 theorizing and they started acting. Which brings 00:11:51.039 --> 00:11:53.080 us to the murders themselves. And I want to focus 00:11:53.080 --> 00:11:54.700 on the method because this is where the partnership 00:11:54.700 --> 00:11:57.960 becomes so lethally effective. A lone man on 00:11:57.960 --> 00:12:00.600 a moor is suspicious. A couple asking for help, 00:12:00.679 --> 00:12:03.720 not so much. Exactly. Their apparent normality 00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:05.860 was their primary weapon. Their first victim 00:12:05.860 --> 00:12:08.399 was Pauline Ree. She was 16 years old. And she 00:12:08.399 --> 00:12:10.659 knew Myra Hindley. She was a neighbor of Hindley's 00:12:10.659 --> 00:12:12.879 sister. She knew Myra by sight, trusted her. 00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:15.159 And this is where they first deployed the Lost 00:12:15.159 --> 00:12:17.279 Glove ruse. Can you walk us through that? It 00:12:17.279 --> 00:12:21.019 sounds so... So simple, almost childish. Why 00:12:21.019 --> 00:12:24.159 was it so effective? Because it weaponizes a 00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:26.820 child's natural inclination to be helpful and 00:12:26.820 --> 00:12:29.480 polite. Hindley would be the one to approach 00:12:29.480 --> 00:12:32.059 the victim, usually in her van. She'd pull up 00:12:32.059 --> 00:12:33.840 and say she'd lost an expensive glove on the 00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:35.860 moor and was worried her mother would be angry. 00:12:36.120 --> 00:12:37.740 Could they please help her find it? It's not 00:12:37.740 --> 00:12:40.100 a threat. It's a request for assistance from 00:12:40.100 --> 00:12:43.080 a woman. It disarms every defense. Who would 00:12:43.080 --> 00:12:45.200 ever suspect a woman asking for help finding 00:12:45.200 --> 00:12:48.210 a glove? It's the perfect lure. So they get Pauline 00:12:48.210 --> 00:12:50.809 to the moor. Brady is waiting nearby on his motorcycle. 00:12:51.250 --> 00:12:54.590 Yes. They lead her out into the emptiness. And 00:12:54.590 --> 00:12:57.490 Pauline was murdered and buried there. Now, the 00:12:57.490 --> 00:12:59.690 sources diverge here on the specifics of the 00:12:59.690 --> 00:13:01.889 act. Henley always claimed she waited in the 00:13:01.889 --> 00:13:04.250 van while Brady committed the murder. And Brady 00:13:04.250 --> 00:13:07.370 claimed she was a full participant. He did. But 00:13:07.370 --> 00:13:09.889 regardless of who held the knife, she drove the 00:13:09.889 --> 00:13:13.049 van. She was the lure. She helped choose the 00:13:13.049 --> 00:13:15.710 burial spot she was all in. And then, just a 00:13:15.710 --> 00:13:18.350 few months later, they do it again. John Kilbride, 00:13:18.509 --> 00:13:22.570 12 years old. November 1963. The same method, 00:13:22.629 --> 00:13:25.610 essentially. Lured from a market in Ashton Underline. 00:13:25.649 --> 00:13:28.970 It was getting dark, cold. They offered him a 00:13:28.970 --> 00:13:30.830 lift home, maybe some sherry to warm him up. 00:13:31.090 --> 00:13:34.029 And then the lost glove story again. But there's 00:13:34.029 --> 00:13:36.230 a detail in the Kilbride case that shows the 00:13:36.230 --> 00:13:38.490 absolute depth of their depravity, something 00:13:38.490 --> 00:13:41.370 they did afterwards. The photograph. A photograph. 00:13:41.610 --> 00:13:43.909 After they had buried John Kilbride, Brady took 00:13:43.909 --> 00:13:46.750 a photograph of Myra Hindley standing over the 00:13:46.750 --> 00:13:48.730 fresh grave. I've seen it described. She's sort 00:13:48.730 --> 00:13:51.049 of crouching, looking down at the ground, and 00:13:51.049 --> 00:13:53.230 her little dog, Puppet, is in the shot with her. 00:13:53.529 --> 00:13:56.250 To any stranger looking at that photo, it's completely 00:13:56.250 --> 00:13:58.789 innocuous. It's just a snapshot of a woman out 00:13:58.789 --> 00:14:01.269 walking her dog on the hills. But to them? To 00:14:01.269 --> 00:14:04.230 them, it was a trophy. A memento to relive the 00:14:04.230 --> 00:14:07.110 thrill, the power. It shows a complete and utter 00:14:07.110 --> 00:14:09.450 detachment from the reality of what they had 00:14:09.450 --> 00:14:12.009 just done. They were literally posing for a souvenir 00:14:12.009 --> 00:14:14.809 on top of a child they had just murdered. Then, 00:14:14.830 --> 00:14:18.250 after Killbride, there's this gap. The sources 00:14:18.250 --> 00:14:20.769 mention a cooling off period before the next 00:14:20.769 --> 00:14:24.210 murders. Now, that seems unusual for serial killers, 00:14:24.389 --> 00:14:26.809 doesn't it? I thought the urge usually accelerated. 00:14:27.230 --> 00:14:30.120 It is an anomaly. Usually the high wears off 00:14:30.120 --> 00:14:32.620 faster and faster, and the killer needs to strike 00:14:32.620 --> 00:14:35.019 again more quickly, which often leads to a frenzy. 00:14:35.299 --> 00:14:37.720 But they waited nearly seven months before they 00:14:37.720 --> 00:14:41.320 took Keith Bennett in June 1964, and then another 00:14:41.320 --> 00:14:44.740 six months before Leslie Ann Downey. So why the 00:14:44.740 --> 00:14:47.639 pause? Were they getting scared? Losing their 00:14:47.639 --> 00:14:50.279 nerve? The evidence suggests the opposite. They 00:14:50.279 --> 00:14:53.399 were confident. Arrogant, even. They seemed to 00:14:53.399 --> 00:14:55.360 have been distracted by other criminal ambitions. 00:14:55.679 --> 00:14:57.759 What kind of ambitions? They were planning armed 00:14:57.759 --> 00:14:59.879 robberies. Seriously? They were accumulating 00:14:59.879 --> 00:15:02.279 more weapons, studying armored car routes, planning 00:15:02.279 --> 00:15:05.120 bank heists. Brady seemed to be pivoting to armed 00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:06.980 robbery as another way to prove his superiority 00:15:06.980 --> 00:15:10.240 over society. So the murders weren't an uncontrollable 00:15:10.240 --> 00:15:12.960 compulsion. It reinforces that they were in complete 00:15:12.960 --> 00:15:15.620 control, which almost makes it scarier. It wasn't 00:15:15.620 --> 00:15:17.740 an impulse they couldn't stop. It was an activity 00:15:17.740 --> 00:15:19.899 they scheduled when it suited them. We have to 00:15:19.899 --> 00:15:24.299 talk about Keith Bennett. June, 1964. Keith was 00:15:24.299 --> 00:15:27.159 12 years old. He was on his way to his grandmother's 00:15:27.159 --> 00:15:30.019 house, just a short walk. Henley pulled up in 00:15:30.019 --> 00:15:32.159 her mini and asked him if he'd help her move 00:15:32.159 --> 00:15:34.360 some boxes into the car. And he was a helpful 00:15:34.360 --> 00:15:37.539 boy. A kind, helpful boy. So of course he agreed. 00:15:37.720 --> 00:15:40.299 They drove him to the moor. Brady walked off 00:15:40.299 --> 00:15:42.779 with him, again using some version of the glove 00:15:42.779 --> 00:15:45.539 story. Sometime later, Brady returned to the 00:15:45.539 --> 00:15:48.570 car alone, carrying the spade. And Keith Bennett's 00:15:48.570 --> 00:15:50.669 body has never been found. We'll definitely touch 00:15:50.669 --> 00:15:52.389 on the aftermath of that later. But the fact 00:15:52.389 --> 00:15:56.070 that he is still out there on that moor is, it's 00:15:56.070 --> 00:15:58.070 one of the most haunting aspects of this entire 00:15:58.070 --> 00:16:01.509 case. It is. A wound that is never closed. But 00:16:01.509 --> 00:16:04.669 let's move to Boxing Day, 1964. The day they 00:16:04.669 --> 00:16:07.149 murdered 10 -year -old Leslie Ann Downey. This 00:16:07.149 --> 00:16:09.009 is where the case gets even darker, if that's 00:16:09.009 --> 00:16:10.570 even possible. Because they didn't take her straight 00:16:10.570 --> 00:16:12.870 to the moor. No. They took her from a fun fair 00:16:12.870 --> 00:16:14.990 and brought her back to their house, 16 Wardle 00:16:14.990 --> 00:16:17.110 Brook Avenue. And this is where their use of 00:16:17.110 --> 00:16:19.450 technology comes in. They recorded her ordeal 00:16:19.450 --> 00:16:21.690 on a reel -to -reel tape recorder. This was a 00:16:21.690 --> 00:16:24.789 deliberate act. They wanted a souvenir of their 00:16:24.789 --> 00:16:27.029 own depravity. They wanted to be able to replay 00:16:27.029 --> 00:16:30.269 it. To replay the power they held over that child. 00:16:30.429 --> 00:16:34.029 To relive her terror. We'll discuss the take's 00:16:34.029 --> 00:16:37.230 role in the trial later. But the sheer coldness 00:16:37.230 --> 00:16:40.169 of wanting an audio record of that. It speaks 00:16:40.169 --> 00:16:42.830 again to that trophy hunting mindset. It's beyond 00:16:42.830 --> 00:16:45.509 comprehension for most people. Usually these 00:16:45.509 --> 00:16:48.549 kinds of murder partnerships, they implode. One 00:16:48.549 --> 00:16:50.649 person cracks under the pressure or they get 00:16:50.649 --> 00:16:53.450 sloppy or they're caught by the police. But in 00:16:53.450 --> 00:16:55.409 this case, the downfall came because they got 00:16:55.409 --> 00:16:57.610 arrogant. They tried to recruit a third member. 00:16:57.830 --> 00:17:01.809 Exactly. Enter David Smith. Smith was Hindley's 00:17:01.809 --> 00:17:04.750 brother -in -law. He was just 17 and he was married 00:17:04.750 --> 00:17:07.009 to her younger sister, Maureen. And Brady saw 00:17:07.009 --> 00:17:09.490 him as a protege. He did. He saw a bit of his 00:17:09.490 --> 00:17:12.509 younger self in Smith's rebellious, angry anti 00:17:12.509 --> 00:17:15.849 -authority. Brady wanted to groom him, just like 00:17:15.849 --> 00:17:18.069 he'd groomed Hindley. But Smith didn't know the 00:17:18.069 --> 00:17:20.569 full extent of what was going on, did he? Not 00:17:20.569 --> 00:17:23.910 at all. Smith was a bit dazzled by Brady's attitude. 00:17:24.309 --> 00:17:26.970 He liked the talk of easy money and bank robberies. 00:17:27.309 --> 00:17:29.650 He liked the feeling of being let in on a secret 00:17:29.650 --> 00:17:32.630 criminal world. But he thought it was all talk. 00:17:33.230 --> 00:17:36.390 He had no idea about the murders. Not until October 00:17:36.390 --> 00:17:39.390 of 1965. When Brady decided it was time for a 00:17:39.390 --> 00:17:42.690 demonstration. Brady wanted to blood Smith. That 00:17:42.690 --> 00:17:45.150 was the term. He wanted to make him an accomplice 00:17:45.150 --> 00:17:47.509 to a murder so that he couldn't go to the police. 00:17:47.730 --> 00:17:50.109 And this is the murder of Edward Evans. Unlike 00:17:50.109 --> 00:17:52.170 the others, this wasn't a clean disappearance 00:17:52.170 --> 00:17:55.829 on the moor. This was messy. It was chaotic. 00:17:56.230 --> 00:17:58.130 It was a slaughter in a suburban living room. 00:17:58.970 --> 00:18:01.769 Brady lured Edward Evans, a 17 -year -old apprentice 00:18:01.769 --> 00:18:04.309 engineer he met at a train station, back to the 00:18:04.309 --> 00:18:06.809 house. Then he sent Hindley to go and fetch David 00:18:06.809 --> 00:18:08.710 Smith. He brought him to the house. Brought him 00:18:08.710 --> 00:18:10.430 to the house and told him to wait outside for 00:18:10.430 --> 00:18:12.890 a signal, a flashing light from the window. It's 00:18:12.890 --> 00:18:15.410 so theatrical, so cinematic in his mind. It's 00:18:15.410 --> 00:18:18.029 Brady living out his movie villain fantasy. Smith 00:18:18.029 --> 00:18:20.289 sees the signal, he goes inside. Brady leaves 00:18:20.289 --> 00:18:21.769 him in the kitchen, says he's just going to get 00:18:21.769 --> 00:18:24.690 some wine. And then Smith hears screams. He runs 00:18:24.690 --> 00:18:27.230 in. He runs into the living room and he sees 00:18:27.230 --> 00:18:29.789 Brady attacking Edward Evans with a hatchet. 00:18:29.829 --> 00:18:31.990 That must have been just a shattering moment 00:18:31.990 --> 00:18:34.089 for Smith. He thinks he's there for a drink or 00:18:34.089 --> 00:18:36.109 to talk about a robbery and suddenly there's 00:18:36.109 --> 00:18:38.369 an axe murder happening in front of him. He described 00:18:38.369 --> 00:18:40.890 hearing this terrible hard blow of the weapon. 00:18:41.490 --> 00:18:44.289 He watched Brady then strangle the boy with a 00:18:44.289 --> 00:18:47.410 piece of electrical cord to finish the job. And 00:18:47.410 --> 00:18:50.859 Henley... She wasn't cowering in the corner. 00:18:51.000 --> 00:18:52.720 No, she was participating. She was shouting instructions, 00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:55.019 handing Brady the ligature. She was an active 00:18:55.019 --> 00:18:58.279 participant. Smith was frozen with terror. He 00:18:58.279 --> 00:19:00.220 was convinced he was next. So he played along. 00:19:00.380 --> 00:19:02.940 He had to. He helped them wrap the body in plastic 00:19:02.940 --> 00:19:05.099 sheeting because he was sure that if he showed 00:19:05.099 --> 00:19:08.220 any hesitation, any disgust, he would be on the 00:19:08.220 --> 00:19:10.460 floor right beside Evans. But here's the crucial 00:19:10.460 --> 00:19:14.019 error Brady made. In the struggle, he hurt himself. 00:19:14.400 --> 00:19:17.960 Yes. During the fight with Evans, Brady badly 00:19:17.960 --> 00:19:21.130 injured his ankle. He was essentially incapacitated. 00:19:21.470 --> 00:19:23.609 He couldn't easily move the body by himself, 00:19:23.869 --> 00:19:26.170 and more importantly, he couldn't chase anyone. 00:19:26.390 --> 00:19:29.490 So Smith plays along, helps clean up, and gets 00:19:29.490 --> 00:19:32.210 out of the house. He runs home to his wife, Maureen. 00:19:33.049 --> 00:19:35.289 And this is the moment where the folie a deux 00:19:35.289 --> 00:19:37.970 fails to expand into a folie a trois. Exactly 00:19:37.970 --> 00:19:41.170 right. Smith gets home, he's violently ill from 00:19:41.170 --> 00:19:44.250 the shock, and he tells Maureen everything. And 00:19:44.250 --> 00:19:46.509 they make a decision that saves, well... Who 00:19:46.509 --> 00:19:49.150 knows how many future lives? At 6 .10 in the 00:19:49.150 --> 00:19:51.410 morning, David Smith goes to a public phone box 00:19:51.410 --> 00:19:53.829 to call the police. And the detail of how he 00:19:53.829 --> 00:19:56.490 went to that phone box is so telling of the fear 00:19:56.490 --> 00:19:59.269 he felt. He armed himself. He took a screwdriver 00:19:59.269 --> 00:20:01.430 and a bread knife with him. He was absolutely 00:20:01.430 --> 00:20:03.190 convinced that Brady was coming for him and his 00:20:03.190 --> 00:20:05.289 family. He was ready to fight for his life. The 00:20:05.289 --> 00:20:08.490 arrest itself has this bizarre, almost mundane 00:20:08.490 --> 00:20:11.170 quality to it. You expect a SWAT team kicking 00:20:11.170 --> 00:20:13.430 down the door, but it was much more subtle. There 00:20:13.430 --> 00:20:17.170 were no SWAT teams in 1965 Manchester. The officer 00:20:17.170 --> 00:20:19.809 in charge, Superintendent Bob Talbot, he realized 00:20:19.809 --> 00:20:21.609 that if they just knocked on the door, Brady 00:20:21.609 --> 00:20:24.089 might destroy evidence or even start a siege. 00:20:24.369 --> 00:20:26.490 So he came up with a plan. A very clever one. 00:20:27.069 --> 00:20:29.789 Talbot disguised himself as a bread delivery 00:20:29.789 --> 00:20:33.190 man. He put a white coat on over his police uniform 00:20:33.190 --> 00:20:35.349 to get Hindley to open the front door. That is 00:20:35.349 --> 00:20:38.289 proper old school policing. Bread delivery. And 00:20:38.289 --> 00:20:40.309 it worked perfectly. Hindley opened the door. 00:20:40.910 --> 00:20:43.190 Talbot identified himself and his team pushed 00:20:43.190 --> 00:20:46.430 in. They found Brady in bed, nursing his injured 00:20:46.430 --> 00:20:49.170 ankle and writing a note to his employer to explain 00:20:49.170 --> 00:20:51.589 why he wouldn't be at work that day. The banality 00:20:51.589 --> 00:20:53.910 of evil right there. There is a body wrapped 00:20:53.910 --> 00:20:56.369 in plastic in the spare bedroom and he's writing 00:20:56.369 --> 00:20:59.309 a sick note for his stock clerk job. The police 00:20:59.309 --> 00:21:01.670 asked for the key to the locked spare bedroom. 00:21:02.329 --> 00:21:04.730 Hindley stalled. She claimed the key was at her 00:21:04.730 --> 00:21:08.069 workplace. Brady, maybe realizing the game was 00:21:08.069 --> 00:21:11.210 up or maybe just in too much pain to argue, told 00:21:11.210 --> 00:21:12.789 her to give them the key. And they opened the 00:21:12.789 --> 00:21:14.390 door. They opened the door and there was the 00:21:14.390 --> 00:21:17.029 body of Edward Evans. And Brady immediately tries 00:21:17.029 --> 00:21:19.130 to talk his way out of it. His first words are 00:21:19.130 --> 00:21:21.230 something like, Eddie and I had a row and it 00:21:21.230 --> 00:21:23.509 got out of hand. He's already trying to frame 00:21:23.509 --> 00:21:25.470 it as a fight between friends that went too far. 00:21:25.769 --> 00:21:28.799 Manslaughter, perhaps, not murder. But the police 00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:30.779 were smart. They started searching the house 00:21:30.779 --> 00:21:33.519 meticulously. And the real breakthrough, the 00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:36.380 thing that blew this case wide open, was a prayer 00:21:36.380 --> 00:21:39.640 book. A prayer book of all things. Inside a prayer 00:21:39.640 --> 00:21:41.920 book they found in the house, tucked away, was 00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:44.380 a small slip of paper. It was a claim ticket. 00:21:44.519 --> 00:21:47.059 A claim ticket for the left luggage office at 00:21:47.059 --> 00:21:49.299 Manchester Central train station. For listeners 00:21:49.299 --> 00:21:51.559 who might not know, left luggage is basically 00:21:51.559 --> 00:21:55.160 a locker or storage area at a train station where 00:21:55.160 --> 00:21:58.619 you can leave bags. Precise amount. And in those 00:21:58.619 --> 00:22:01.940 bags, a pair of suitcases, was a treasure trove 00:22:01.940 --> 00:22:04.779 of self -incrimination. Brady had stored his 00:22:04.779 --> 00:22:06.859 most damning possessions there for safekeeping. 00:22:07.019 --> 00:22:09.140 They found the guns. They found a collection 00:22:09.140 --> 00:22:11.900 of pornographic photos. They found the 16 -minute 00:22:11.900 --> 00:22:14.680 tape of Leslie Ann Downey's final hours. And 00:22:14.680 --> 00:22:16.920 they found photos. Photos of the Moors. Dozens 00:22:16.920 --> 00:22:19.099 of photos of the Moors. And they also found an 00:22:19.099 --> 00:22:21.299 exercise book with the name John Kilbride written 00:22:21.299 --> 00:22:23.539 in it. And that was the link. That was the moment 00:22:23.539 --> 00:22:26.099 everything changed. Suddenly, this wasn't just 00:22:26.099 --> 00:22:28.480 a domestic murder of Edward Evans. The police 00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:30.259 connected the name in the book to the missing 00:22:30.259 --> 00:22:32.880 boy. And then they looked at the photographs 00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:35.279 of the moors, these bleak landscapes, close -ups 00:22:35.279 --> 00:22:37.680 of the ground, and they realized they weren't 00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:40.000 looking at holiday snaps. They were looking at 00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:42.059 a graveyard. I want to highlight the forensic 00:22:42.059 --> 00:22:44.440 work here regarding those dog photos. They had 00:22:44.440 --> 00:22:47.200 pictures of Henley's dog puppet on the moor. 00:22:47.319 --> 00:22:49.599 How did that specifically help them find the 00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:51.400 bodies? It was a brilliant piece of deduction. 00:22:51.819 --> 00:22:54.279 They suspected the photos showed the grave sites. 00:22:54.799 --> 00:22:57.599 But to know which missing child case to connect 00:22:57.599 --> 00:23:00.420 them to, they needed to date the photos. And 00:23:00.420 --> 00:23:03.579 there were no timestamps back then. No. So they 00:23:03.579 --> 00:23:06.039 looked at the dog, Puppet. They brought in a 00:23:06.039 --> 00:23:08.480 forensic veterinarian to examine the dog's teeth 00:23:08.480 --> 00:23:10.880 to determine its age in the photographs versus 00:23:10.880 --> 00:23:13.259 its age now. They were trying to build a timeline 00:23:13.259 --> 00:23:15.619 based on the dog's growth. And this leads to 00:23:15.619 --> 00:23:18.000 the only time during the entire investigation 00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:20.319 that Myra Hindley showed any genuine emotion. 00:23:20.559 --> 00:23:24.059 The dog. Puppet sadly died under the anesthetic 00:23:24.059 --> 00:23:26.839 during the dental examination. When Henley was 00:23:26.839 --> 00:23:29.000 told, she went ballistic. She screamed at the 00:23:29.000 --> 00:23:30.920 police. She accused them of being murderers. 00:23:31.099 --> 00:23:33.680 She wrote to her mother, quote, I feel as though 00:23:33.680 --> 00:23:36.019 my heart's been torn to pieces. That creates 00:23:36.019 --> 00:23:38.619 such a terrifying paradox, doesn't it? She can 00:23:38.619 --> 00:23:40.720 listen to a 10 -year -old girl pleading for her 00:23:40.720 --> 00:23:43.000 mother on a tape and feel absolutely nothing? 00:23:43.299 --> 00:23:46.509 She can call her own attitude brusque? But the 00:23:46.509 --> 00:23:48.869 dog dies and she's heartbroken. It completely 00:23:48.869 --> 00:23:51.869 demolishes any defense that she was just a scared 00:23:51.869 --> 00:23:54.430 victim of Brady who was numb to everything. She 00:23:54.430 --> 00:23:56.690 clearly had empathy. She was capable of love 00:23:56.690 --> 00:23:59.150 and grief. She just chose not to extend it to 00:23:59.150 --> 00:24:01.509 human children. She reserved it for her dog. 00:24:01.849 --> 00:24:04.450 It implies a conscious dehumanization of her 00:24:04.450 --> 00:24:07.430 victims, which is chilling. So using the photos 00:24:07.430 --> 00:24:09.910 as a map, they go back to the Moors. They start 00:24:09.910 --> 00:24:12.130 trying to identify the locations. And they found 00:24:12.130 --> 00:24:14.269 Liz Leanne Downey's body relatively quickly. 00:24:14.410 --> 00:24:16.789 She was identified by the clothing found with 00:24:16.789 --> 00:24:19.349 her. A few days later, they found John Kilbride. 00:24:19.509 --> 00:24:21.789 The Moors were finally giving up their secrets. 00:24:22.109 --> 00:24:26.490 Let's move to the trial. April 1966 at Chester 00:24:26.490 --> 00:24:29.769 Assizes. The atmosphere around that courthouse 00:24:29.769 --> 00:24:32.549 must have been incredibly volatile. It was dangerous. 00:24:33.180 --> 00:24:35.960 The public rage was unlike anything seen in Britain 00:24:35.960 --> 00:24:38.819 before. Mobs attacked the prison van, bringing 00:24:38.819 --> 00:24:40.980 them to and from court every day. They had to 00:24:40.980 --> 00:24:43.720 install bulletproof glass in the dock. A first 00:24:43.720 --> 00:24:46.440 in British legal history. Yes, because there 00:24:46.440 --> 00:24:48.819 was a genuine fear that someone in the public 00:24:48.819 --> 00:24:51.000 gallery would try to shoot them during the proceedings. 00:24:51.339 --> 00:24:54.019 And the moment that defined that trial, the moment 00:24:54.019 --> 00:24:56.420 that I think seared this case into the public 00:24:56.420 --> 00:24:58.519 memory forever, was when they played the tape. 00:24:58.920 --> 00:25:01.019 The prosecution made the decision that the jury 00:25:01.019 --> 00:25:03.779 needed to hear the reality of what happened to 00:25:03.779 --> 00:25:05.819 Leslie Ann Downey, not just read about it, but 00:25:05.819 --> 00:25:08.460 hear it. So they played the 16 -minute audio 00:25:08.460 --> 00:25:10.960 tape in open court. And the reaction? The sources 00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:13.420 say that grown men, hardened police officers 00:25:13.420 --> 00:25:16.569 and journalists were openly weeping. Two women 00:25:16.569 --> 00:25:18.450 in the gallery physically covered their ears 00:25:18.450 --> 00:25:20.609 and had to be helped out of the courtroom. It 00:25:20.609 --> 00:25:22.930 was just pure, distilled suffering. And what 00:25:22.930 --> 00:25:24.950 was the reaction from Brady and Hindley in the 00:25:24.950 --> 00:25:27.049 doc? Brady was, by all accounts, indifferent. 00:25:27.450 --> 00:25:30.690 He sat there taking notes, acting bored, as if 00:25:30.690 --> 00:25:33.569 it was all beneath him. Hindley, however, was 00:25:33.569 --> 00:25:36.710 forced to confront it. On the stand, she was 00:25:36.710 --> 00:25:38.849 asked about her voice on the tape, about her 00:25:38.849 --> 00:25:41.130 tone with the child. She described her attitude 00:25:41.130 --> 00:25:45.640 as brusque. Brusque? What a sterile, bureaucratic, 00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:48.240 inhuman word to describe that kind of cruelty. 00:25:48.599 --> 00:25:51.619 It was her attempt to minimize, to sound detached 00:25:51.619 --> 00:25:55.059 and professional. But it didn't work. The jury 00:25:55.059 --> 00:25:57.220 saw right through it. They found them both guilty 00:25:57.220 --> 00:25:59.819 on all counts. They were sentenced to life imprisonment. 00:25:59.900 --> 00:26:02.359 And we have to note a crucial historical detail 00:26:02.359 --> 00:26:04.400 here. The timing of this trial is staggering. 00:26:04.990 --> 00:26:07.049 The death penalty for murder had been abolished 00:26:07.049 --> 00:26:09.730 in the UK just six months prior, in November 00:26:09.730 --> 00:26:12.970 of 1965. That is incredible. They missed the 00:26:12.970 --> 00:26:15.509 hangman's noose by a matter of months. If the 00:26:15.509 --> 00:26:17.650 murder of Edward Evans had happened a year earlier 00:26:17.650 --> 00:26:19.630 and they'd been caught then, they would almost 00:26:19.630 --> 00:26:22.130 certainly have been executed. Instead, the judge, 00:26:22.309 --> 00:26:24.809 Justice Fenton Atkinson, sentenced them to life, 00:26:24.950 --> 00:26:27.170 calling them two sadistic killers of the utmost 00:26:27.170 --> 00:26:29.769 depravity and recommending they never be released. 00:26:30.170 --> 00:26:32.990 Now, usually for most cases, the story ends when 00:26:32.990 --> 00:26:36.009 the cell door slams shut. But the Moores murders 00:26:36.009 --> 00:26:39.569 had this long, toxic tale. They kept secrets 00:26:39.569 --> 00:26:42.690 for decades. They did. They denied the murders 00:26:42.690 --> 00:26:45.130 of Pauline Reed and Keith Bennett for 20 years. 00:26:45.329 --> 00:26:48.470 For two decades, they held that information hostage, 00:26:48.869 --> 00:26:51.390 leaving those families in a state of agonizing 00:26:51.390 --> 00:26:54.569 limbo. And their lives in prison were... Quite 00:26:54.569 --> 00:26:56.609 something. Brady went into the high security 00:26:56.609 --> 00:26:59.450 psychiatric system, eventually ending up at Ashworth 00:26:59.450 --> 00:27:02.630 Hospital. He leaned into the villain role. He 00:27:02.630 --> 00:27:04.789 wrote a book called The Gates of Janus, where 00:27:04.789 --> 00:27:07.269 he analyzed other serial killers. He went on 00:27:07.269 --> 00:27:09.769 hunger strikes for years, being force fed through 00:27:09.769 --> 00:27:12.809 a tube, claiming he wanted to die, but clearly 00:27:12.809 --> 00:27:14.769 enjoying the battle of wills with the authorities. 00:27:15.009 --> 00:27:17.150 And Hindley tried to rebrand herself completely. 00:27:17.470 --> 00:27:20.150 She did. She claimed to be a reformed, devout 00:27:20.150 --> 00:27:22.670 Catholic. She argued that she was just another 00:27:22.670 --> 00:27:25.210 one of Brady's victims, that she had been brainwashed 00:27:25.210 --> 00:27:27.210 and was now redeemed. And she had some high profile 00:27:27.210 --> 00:27:29.509 supporters, didn't she? She did. Most notably, 00:27:29.609 --> 00:27:32.259 Lord Lawnford. a prison reformer who genuinely 00:27:32.259 --> 00:27:35.000 believed she was a changed woman. He visited 00:27:35.000 --> 00:27:37.539 her. He campaigned tirelessly for her parole. 00:27:37.720 --> 00:27:40.579 He was branded a loony and a fool by the press 00:27:40.579 --> 00:27:43.880 for it. But the public never, ever forgave her. 00:27:44.180 --> 00:27:47.599 That police mugshot of her, the peroxide blonde 00:27:47.599 --> 00:27:50.880 hair, the hard, cold stare, it became the icon 00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:53.559 of feminine evil in Britain. But in the late 00:27:53.559 --> 00:27:56.240 1980s, the secrets finally started to come out. 00:27:56.400 --> 00:27:59.259 Why then? What changed? Desperation, mainly. 00:27:59.799 --> 00:28:02.079 By the mid -80s, Hindley realized she was never 00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:03.900 getting out unless she showed total and complete 00:28:03.900 --> 00:28:06.099 cooperation. She thought that if she finally 00:28:06.099 --> 00:28:07.859 confessed everything, it might clear the slate 00:28:07.859 --> 00:28:10.039 and help her chances for parole. So she talked. 00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:12.960 In 1987, she officially confessed to her role 00:28:12.960 --> 00:28:14.880 in the murders of Pauline Reed and Keith Bennett. 00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:17.339 And that led to this surreal, macabre operation 00:28:17.339 --> 00:28:19.880 where the police took both of them, separately, 00:28:20.099 --> 00:28:22.579 back to Saddleworth Moor. Imagine that scene. 00:28:22.759 --> 00:28:25.720 It's 1987. There are helicopters overhead, police 00:28:25.720 --> 00:28:27.940 cordons for miles, media from all over the world, 00:28:28.019 --> 00:28:30.380 and these two killers are walking the landscape 00:28:30.380 --> 00:28:32.640 again, trying to remember where they buried children 00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:35.319 two decades earlier. It was a spectacle. And 00:28:35.319 --> 00:28:38.440 it worked, in part. Based on Hindley's memory 00:28:38.440 --> 00:28:40.720 of the landscape, she remembered a specific view 00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:42.839 of the rocks from one of the burial sites. They 00:28:42.839 --> 00:28:45.539 finally found Pauline Reed's body in 1987. But 00:28:45.539 --> 00:28:48.769 not Keith Bennett. No. And that is the open wound 00:28:48.769 --> 00:28:51.769 that remains in this case. Despite massive, repeated 00:28:51.769 --> 00:28:54.430 searches over the decades, despite Brady playing 00:28:54.430 --> 00:28:56.750 cruel mind games with Keith's mother, Winnie 00:28:56.750 --> 00:28:59.069 Johnson, sending her cryptic letters and maps 00:28:59.069 --> 00:29:01.809 that led nowhere, Keith Bennett was never found. 00:29:02.009 --> 00:29:04.670 Winnie Johnson spent her entire life campaigning, 00:29:04.769 --> 00:29:07.029 searching the Moors herself, begging them to 00:29:07.029 --> 00:29:09.309 tell her where her son was. She died in 2012, 00:29:09.769 --> 00:29:12.190 never knowing. Never being able to give her son 00:29:12.190 --> 00:29:14.490 a proper burial. That is a level of cruelty that's 00:29:14.490 --> 00:29:16.650 almost separate from the murder itself. It's 00:29:16.650 --> 00:29:19.109 a continuous, decades -long act of torture against 00:29:19.109 --> 00:29:23.150 a family. Brady died in 2017, Hindley in 2002. 00:29:23.789 --> 00:29:26.069 The case is technically closed, but it feels 00:29:26.069 --> 00:29:29.970 so unresolved. It feels unresolved because the 00:29:29.970 --> 00:29:32.529 landscape still holds a secret. And the cultural 00:29:32.529 --> 00:29:35.009 impact is permanent. It truly did end that age 00:29:35.009 --> 00:29:37.549 of innocence. Before this case, there was a general 00:29:37.549 --> 00:29:39.450 belief that children could play out on the street 00:29:39.450 --> 00:29:42.450 until dark. After Brady and Henley, parents in 00:29:42.450 --> 00:29:44.849 Britain and really across the world started to 00:29:44.849 --> 00:29:46.990 look over their shoulder, the rules changed. 00:29:47.289 --> 00:29:49.470 It also introduced the idea that a woman could 00:29:49.470 --> 00:29:52.069 be just as dangerous, just as much of a predator 00:29:52.069 --> 00:29:55.329 as a man. Yes, it shattered that stereotype completely, 00:29:55.609 --> 00:29:57.529 which brings us back to that central disturbing 00:29:57.529 --> 00:30:01.009 question of the folia due. When you look at the 00:30:01.009 --> 00:30:03.710 totality of the evidence, what is the final takeaway 00:30:03.710 --> 00:30:06.170 about human nature here? It's terrifying, isn't 00:30:06.170 --> 00:30:08.309 it? The realization that evil isn't always something 00:30:08.309 --> 00:30:10.940 that just is. Sometimes it's something that is 00:30:10.940 --> 00:30:14.180 unlocked. Would Myra Hindley have lived a normal, 00:30:14.319 --> 00:30:16.839 unremarkable life if she had never met Ian Brady? 00:30:17.180 --> 00:30:19.539 It's possible. She might have been a clerk, gotten 00:30:19.539 --> 00:30:22.220 married, had children, and that darkness inside 00:30:22.220 --> 00:30:25.019 her would have just stayed dormant. He found 00:30:25.019 --> 00:30:28.099 the key. So the final thought is, how many other 00:30:28.099 --> 00:30:30.400 people are walking around just one wrong meeting 00:30:30.400 --> 00:30:32.880 away from becoming monsters? That's the question 00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:35.559 that this case leaves you with. And it's a deeply 00:30:35.559 --> 00:30:38.000 disturbing one. A very disturbing thought to 00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:41.170 end on. The idea that the more is quiet now, 00:30:41.289 --> 00:30:43.950 but it still remembers everything. It does. It 00:30:43.950 --> 00:30:46.690 stands as a monument to what happens when two 00:30:46.690 --> 00:30:49.710 dark psychologies meet. And instead of canceling 00:30:49.710 --> 00:30:52.029 each other out, they amplify each other into 00:30:52.029 --> 00:30:54.730 something hellish. We've covered a lot of dark 00:30:54.730 --> 00:30:56.950 ground today. Thank you for guiding us through 00:30:56.950 --> 00:30:58.950 the psychology and the history of this case. 00:30:59.230 --> 00:31:01.269 Thank you. It's a difficult one, but an important 00:31:01.269 --> 00:31:03.529 one to understand. And to our listeners, take 00:31:03.529 --> 00:31:04.970 care of yourselves. We'll see you on the next 00:31:04.970 --> 00:31:05.450 Deep Dive.