WEBVTT

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I want you to picture a specific kind of house.

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It's Sacramento, California in the mid -1980s.

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You're walking down F Street, and it's, you know,

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it's a mix of gritty and kind of genteel, but

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this one house, number 1426, it really stands

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out. Oh, it does. It's a classic Victorian. Right.

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It has that slightly imposing, look -high porch,

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all that decorative trim, and a really well -tended

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garden. And there... Tending that garden is a

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woman who looks like she stepped right out of

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a casting call for America's sweetest grandmother.

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It's the perfect archetype, isn't it? The vintage

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clothing, the natural gray hair. Yeah. The large

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glasses that make her look a little bit owl -like,

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a little vulnerable. She looks like the kind

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of person who has, you know, hard candies in

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her purse and probably knit sweaters for her

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cat. Oh, absolutely. That's the vibe. That woman

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was Dorothea Puente. And to her neighbors, to

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the community, she was a saint. She was the woman

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who took in the people nobody else wanted, the

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elderly, the homeless, the shadow people of the

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welfare system. She gave them a room, hot meals,

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a place to belong. But, and this is the huge

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gaping contradiction we're talking about today.

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It was massive. Yeah. While she was playing the

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benevolent matriarch upstairs, she was literally

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burying those same tenants. in the flower beds

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downstairs the death house landlady that's the

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moniker that stuck but i think calling her just

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a landlady almost it diminishes the complexity

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of what she actually was it does she was a chameleon

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a chameleon who killed and that's what we're

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unpacking in this deep dive we've got a mountain

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of source material here we've got the original

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court transcripts from the 90s biographical records

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of her early life The police files. The police

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files are fascinating. And even analysis of her

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cookbook. Yes, she wrote a cookbook. We will

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get to that. The cookbook is a psychological

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study all by itself. But our mission here, it

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isn't just to recount the, you know, the gory

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details. We want to understand the mechanism

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of the deception. Exactly. How? How does an elderly

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woman murder nine people, bury seven of them

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in her own yard in a dense residential neighborhood

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and keep cashing their checks for years without

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anyone noticing? It really seems impossible.

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You'd think the smell alone would give it away

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or, you know, the fact that people are just vanishing.

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But she exploited something very specific, didn't

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she? She did. She exploded what we call the trust

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bias. We are socially conditioned to see elderly

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women as harmless, as nurturing our brains. They

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just struggled to process the image of a grandmother

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wielding a shovel to bury a body. She knew that.

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She knew that. And she weaponized it. She weaponized

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her age, her gender, everything about her appearance.

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And she weaponized the system. Yeah. I was looking

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at the breakdown of her tenants. These were people

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on the absolute margins. But before we get to

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the bodies in the garden, we have to look at

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how Dorothea Puente was even created. Because

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she wasn't born a sweet old lady. No, not at

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all. She was born Dorothea Helen Gray in 1929

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down in Redlands, California. And looking at

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these biographical notes, her start in life was,

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well, it was a complete nightmare. It's a textbook

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case of severe early childhood trauma. We often

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look for that seed of the serial killer. And

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in her case, the soil it was planted in was incredibly

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toxic. Both parents were severe alcoholics. Right.

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Her father, Jesse James Gray, was reportedly

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a man of. Extreme volatility. Volatility is putting

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it so lightly. The records show he would repeatedly

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threaten suicide right in front of the children.

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He'd hold a gun to his head and make them watch.

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Can you imagine being six or seven years old

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and that is your Tuesday night? It's unimaginable.

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It instills this profound sense of instability.

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The child learns that their reality can just

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be shattered at any second. And then the abandonment

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starts. Her father died of tuberculosis in 1937.

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She was only eight. And then her mother, Trudy

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May, she lost custody of the children the very

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next year. Right, because of her drinking and

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her lifestyle. She was a sex worker at the time.

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And then by the end of 1938, her mother's dead

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too, a motorcycle accident. So before she even

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hits puberty, she's an orphan. She's watched

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her father almost kill himself, then die. She's

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lost her mother to the state and then to death.

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It's just loss after loss after loss. And then

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she enters the system. She and her siblings are

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sent to an orphanage. And we have to be really

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clear about the orphanage system of the late

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1930s and early 40s. This wasn't some therapeutic

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environment. No, it was warehousing. It was warehousing,

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exactly. And the reports we have indicate that

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she was sexually abused while she was in care.

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This is where I really want to pause on the psychology

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of it. Because we see this pattern so often in

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the cases we look at. The abuse, the total lack

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of control, the abandonment. How does that translate

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into the person she became? Because she didn't

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just become violent. She became a liar. A really,

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really good one. It's all about control. When

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your actual reality is that unbearable, when

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it's filled with abuse and poverty and terror,

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you learn to construct a new reality. It's a

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survival mechanism. It's sometimes called mythomania

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or pathological lying. Right. If you can lie

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convincingly enough, you can be someone else.

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You can be someone who matters. You can be someone

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who's safe. For Dorothea, lying wasn't really

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a vice. It was a shield. It was armor. And she

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started using that shield very early. She got

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married at 16. 16. Right at the end of World

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War II to a soldier named Fred McFall. But she

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couldn't play house for very long. They had two

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daughters, but she didn't raise them. She sent

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one to live with relatives in Sacramento and

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put the other one up for adoption. And that's

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a really critical data point, isn't it? It shows

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this profound detachment from the maternal instinct

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that she would later pantomime so well. Oh, that's

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a good word for it, pantomime. She abandoned

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her own children, yet decades later, she would

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demand to be called mama by her tenants. It's

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a performance of motherhood, but it's completely

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devoid of the actual responsibility. And the

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criminal record starts around here, too. 1948,

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she's arrested in Riverside, forgery, buying

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women's accessories with bad checks. It's petty

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crime, but it sets the pattern. It does. I want

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something. I don't have the money, so I will

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use a piece of paper, a lie, to get it. But the

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lies get so much bigger. In 1952, she marries

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Axel Brand Johansson. He's a merchant seaman.

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But she doesn't tell him, hi, I'm Dorothea Gray,

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a high school dropout from Redlands with a forgery

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conviction. No. Not even close. She invents this

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completely wild persona. She calls herself Taya

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Singuala Nayarda. Taya Singuala Nayarda. I had

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to practice that one. Me too. It's so theatrical.

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And she claimed to be a Muslim woman of Egyptian

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and Israeli descent. Now, you have to think about

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this. This is 1952. A white woman from Southern

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California convincing people she is an Egyptian

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Israeli Muslim named Taya. That takes a level

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of confidence that it just borders on delusion.

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How did she possibly pull that off? Well, people

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were less traveled then. There was no Internet

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to fact check her, no Google. And she clearly

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played on the exoticism of it all. If she acted

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mysterious and foreign, people bought it. It

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made her special. It made her special. And it

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separated her from the trauma of being Dorothea

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Gray. But she wasn't just telling stories. I

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mean, she was bleeding Johansson dry. He'd be

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away at sea for months. And she was at home gambling

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his money away, inviting other men over. She

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viewed people as resources. She always did. Johansson

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was a paycheck. When the money ran out or he

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just became inconvenient, the mask would slip.

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And it slipped in a big way in 1960. She was

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arrested for running a bookkeeping firm that

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was actually a front for a braille. A bookkeeping

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brothel. She really was an entrepreneur of vice,

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wasn't she? She was. And that arrest led to her

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first major institutionalization. In 1961, Johansson

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finally had enough. He'd caught her and he had

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her committed to DeWitt State Hospital. The doctors

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there observed her for weeks. They saw the drinking,

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the wild mood swings, the constant fabrication.

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And what did they diagnose her with? A pathological

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liar with an unstable personality? They nailed

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it in 1961. It's written right there in the file.

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But the tragedy is that this diagnosis, this

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label, it didn't follow her in a way that protected

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the public. She got out. She divorced Johansson

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in 66, but kept his name for a little while,

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calling herself Sharon Johansson. And she starts

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a new persona. A new one. She started pretending

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to be a devout Christian nurse. Notice the shift.

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She goes from the exotic, mysterious Taya to

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the pious, caring Sharon. She is A -B testing

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personas to see which one gets her what she wants.

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That's a great way to put it. And the nurse persona

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is so powerful, it commands immediate trust.

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Then in 1968, she marries Roberto Jose Puente.

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He was much younger, right? Yeah, 19 years younger.

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The marriage was, uh... predictably volatile

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and only lasted 16 months. But she got something

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very, very valuable out of it. His last name.

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His last name. She became Dorothea Puente. And

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even though they divorced, she kept that name

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for the rest of her life. It sounded established.

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It sounded respectable. And this brings us to

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the Sacramento era, the 1970s and 80s. She secures

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this large two -story Victorian house at 1426

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F Street. And this is where she begins to construct

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the saint persona in earnest. It wasn't just

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about the clothes, though the clothes were a

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huge part of it. The transformation was total.

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It was a conscious decision. She stopped dyeing

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her hair, letting it go completely gray. She

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started wearing these loose vintage dresses that

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hid her figure. She bought those enormous thick

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-rimmed glasses. She was actively aging herself

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up. Yes. She wanted to look frail. She wanted

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to look like a relic of a kinder, gentler time.

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But she didn't just sit on the porch looking

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the part. She hustled. She embedded herself in

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the local political and social scene. She was

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a donor, or at least she pretended to be. Right.

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She gave money to charities. She sponsored scholarships.

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She even had politicians over for dinners at

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the house. She became this fixture in the Hispanic

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community, despite not being Hispanic herself.

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And she did it by filling this massive void in

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the social safety net. And this is the part that's

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really uncomfortable to admit. In a twisted way.

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She was useful. She was. Sacramento, like a lot

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of cities in the 80s, had a crisis of care for

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the indigent. You had the deinstitutionalization

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of mental health patients happening, which basically

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pushed thousands of people out of hospitals and

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onto the streets. And social workers were just

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drowning in caseloads. Drowning. And here comes

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Dorothea Puente. She says, send them to me. I'll

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take them. Exactly. She marketed herself as the

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solution. I take the hard cases. I take the alcoholics.

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I take the schizophrenics who won't take their

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meds. And if you are a social worker with 50

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cases and absolutely nowhere to put a difficult

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client, Dorothea Puente looks like a miracle.

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You don't want to look too closely at the miracle.

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You don't because you need it to be true. But

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there were cracks. There were cracks in the miracle

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long before the bodies were found. The system

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knew she was a crook. In 1978, she was actually

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convicted of illegally cashing 34 state and federal

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checks that belonged to her tenants. 34 checks.

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This wasn't a one -time clerical error. This

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was systematic fraud. She was sentenced to five

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years probation and ordered to pay restitution.

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But it didn't stop her. The same persona was

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just a cover for a predator. And then the violence

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starts to creep in. In 1982 she was charged with

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drugging people. She picked up a 74 -year -old

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man, Malcolm McKenzie, in a bar. She took him

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home, drugged him, and stole his coin collection.

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The drugging is the key escalation. She's moving

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from simple forgery to physical assault. She's

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rendering her victims helpless so she can rob

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them. It's a whole other level. And then we have

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the death of Ruth Monroe in 1982. This is the

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one that really signals the shift to murder.

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And Ruth Monroe wasn't a random stranger from

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a bar. She was a friend, a business partner even.

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She was 61 years old. She moved in with Plente,

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thinking she was going to be living with her

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pal. Two weeks later, she's dead. Massive overdose

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of codeine and acetaminophen. Now, Ruth had been

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healthy. There was no reason for her to just

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drop dead. But suddenly she was. Quindy told

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the police Ruth was depressed. She spun this

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whole story about Ruth's husband being terminally

00:12:10.840 --> 00:12:13.320
ill, saying Ruth just couldn't handle it. And

00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:15.620
they bought it. The coroner couldn't definitively

00:12:15.620 --> 00:12:18.559
prove homicide at the time, so it was left as

00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:22.049
undetermined. But looking back with everything

00:12:22.049 --> 00:12:25.389
we know now, it's so clear Ruth Monroe was likely

00:12:25.389 --> 00:12:27.830
the test run. Puente actually went to prison

00:12:27.830 --> 00:12:30.250
after the McKenzie incident and some other thefts.

00:12:30.409 --> 00:12:33.470
She was sentenced to five years, but she only

00:12:33.470 --> 00:12:35.570
served three. Three years. She was released in

00:12:35.570 --> 00:12:38.809
1985. And this is the moment where you just want

00:12:38.809 --> 00:12:40.909
to yell at the history books, because if they

00:12:40.909 --> 00:12:42.789
had kept her in or if they had monitored her

00:12:42.789 --> 00:12:45.409
properly upon release, the next chapter just

00:12:45.409 --> 00:12:47.519
wouldn't have happened. The parole board released

00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:49.879
her, but they gave her one specific condition.

00:12:50.539 --> 00:12:52.519
She was barred from running a boarding house

00:12:52.519 --> 00:12:55.200
or caring for the elderly. And who was checking?

00:12:55.320 --> 00:12:57.980
Exactly. Who was checking? She went right back

00:12:57.980 --> 00:13:00.740
to 1426 F Street, and she went right back to

00:13:00.740 --> 00:13:02.980
business. Let's talk about that business model,

00:13:03.080 --> 00:13:05.679
because the House of Horrors wasn't just a slaughterhouse.

00:13:05.779 --> 00:13:09.240
It was a factory. A factory for turning human

00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:12.759
beings into cash. The mechanism was the representative

00:13:12.759 --> 00:13:15.700
pay system. Now, for listeners who don't know,

00:13:15.820 --> 00:13:18.379
if a Social Security recipient is deemed unable

00:13:18.379 --> 00:13:21.179
to manage their own money, maybe due to addiction,

00:13:21.419 --> 00:13:24.039
mental illness or cognitive decline, the Social

00:13:24.039 --> 00:13:26.740
Security Administration assigns a representative

00:13:26.740 --> 00:13:29.559
payee. And that person receives the checks and

00:13:29.559 --> 00:13:31.809
pays the bills for them. Right. And Puente made

00:13:31.809 --> 00:13:34.269
damn sure she was that payee. She controlled

00:13:34.269 --> 00:13:36.610
the mailbox. She controlled the signature. And

00:13:36.610 --> 00:13:39.029
once she established total control over the finances,

00:13:39.429 --> 00:13:42.570
the person attached to that check became extraneous.

00:13:42.830 --> 00:13:45.350
In fact, the person was a liability. They hate

00:13:45.350 --> 00:13:47.529
food. They took up space. They could complain

00:13:47.529 --> 00:13:50.169
or wander off. A dead tenant, however. A dead

00:13:50.169 --> 00:13:52.690
tenant costs nothing. And as long as the Social

00:13:52.690 --> 00:13:54.629
Security Administration thinks they are alive.

00:13:55.240 --> 00:13:57.039
The check keeps coming in the mail every month.

00:13:57.179 --> 00:14:00.879
It's so chillingly rational from a purely economic

00:14:00.879 --> 00:14:03.740
standpoint. Kill the expense, keep the revenue.

00:14:03.860 --> 00:14:06.440
And the way she did it, she wasn't using a knife

00:14:06.440 --> 00:14:09.129
or a gun. She was using her care. She used what

00:14:09.129 --> 00:14:11.690
she had. She had access to prescription drugs.

00:14:12.049 --> 00:14:14.590
Many of her tenants were already heavily medicated,

00:14:14.750 --> 00:14:17.190
so she would hoard their pills or she'd get new

00:14:17.190 --> 00:14:19.750
prescriptions from different doctors. The toxicology

00:14:19.750 --> 00:14:22.409
reports later showed this really consistent pattern

00:14:22.409 --> 00:14:25.950
of flurazepam. Delmaine. Delmaine. It's a very

00:14:25.950 --> 00:14:28.629
strong sedative hypnotic for insomnia. In the

00:14:28.629 --> 00:14:31.409
80s, it was commonly prescribed. But in high

00:14:31.409 --> 00:14:33.429
doses, especially when it's mixed with alcohol,

00:14:33.590 --> 00:14:36.309
which she allowed and even provided, it suppresses

00:14:36.309 --> 00:14:38.809
the respiratory system. Just go to sleep. Never

00:14:38.809 --> 00:14:41.230
wake up. Let's walk through the victims because

00:14:41.230 --> 00:14:44.169
they aren't just names on a court docket. Everson

00:14:44.169 --> 00:14:46.789
Gilmuth. This story is particularly heartbreaking

00:14:46.789 --> 00:14:49.190
because he really thought he was in a romance.

00:14:49.570 --> 00:14:52.590
Everson Gilmuth was 77 years old. He lived up

00:14:52.590 --> 00:14:55.309
in Oregon. He and Puente had become pen pals

00:14:55.309 --> 00:14:57.029
while she was in prison. Can you believe that?

00:14:57.129 --> 00:14:59.730
She was working him even from her cell. Wow.

00:14:59.889 --> 00:15:03.370
So when she got out in 1985, he drove down to

00:15:03.370 --> 00:15:05.649
Sacramento in his little red Ford pickup truck

00:15:05.649 --> 00:15:08.659
to marry her. He brought his life savings with

00:15:08.659 --> 00:15:12.500
him. He moves in. And by November 1985, he's

00:15:12.500 --> 00:15:15.559
gone. But he doesn't just disappear into the

00:15:15.559 --> 00:15:17.720
yard. This is the coffin box incident. This is

00:15:17.720 --> 00:15:20.559
one of the most brazen acts in the entire timeline.

00:15:20.679 --> 00:15:23.100
For some reason, maybe she couldn't dig a grave

00:15:23.100 --> 00:15:25.340
deep enough for a man of his size quickly, or

00:15:25.340 --> 00:15:26.860
maybe she just didn't want him in the yard yet.

00:15:27.320 --> 00:15:31.159
So she hired a handyman, a guy named Ismael Carrasco

00:15:31.159 --> 00:15:34.169
Flores. And she told him she needed a storage

00:15:34.169 --> 00:15:37.289
box built. A storage box? I have the dimensions

00:15:37.289 --> 00:15:41.909
here. Six feet long, 30 inches wide, 30 inches

00:15:41.909 --> 00:15:44.129
deep. I mean, come on. If someone asks you to

00:15:44.129 --> 00:15:46.389
build a box that is the exact dimensions of a

00:15:46.389 --> 00:15:48.629
human body, I'm sorry, I am asking some questions.

00:15:48.909 --> 00:15:51.169
She told him it was for books and things. Ismail

00:15:51.169 --> 00:15:53.470
built it. Then she asked him to help her move

00:15:53.470 --> 00:15:55.669
it and dump it. It was nailed shut. It weighed

00:15:55.669 --> 00:15:57.950
over 300 pounds. And she tells him it's just

00:15:57.950 --> 00:16:00.789
junk. Just junk she needed to get rid of. They

00:16:00.789 --> 00:16:03.110
loaded this junk into Gilmout's own truck, which

00:16:03.110 --> 00:16:05.549
he was now driving, and they drove north to Sutter

00:16:05.549 --> 00:16:09.090
County. Can you just imagine that car ride? You're

00:16:09.090 --> 00:16:11.610
the handyman. You're driving with this sweet

00:16:11.610 --> 00:16:14.309
old lady. There is a box in the back that smells

00:16:14.309 --> 00:16:16.590
like mothballs and decay, and she's just chatting

00:16:16.590 --> 00:16:18.470
away like it's a trip to the grocery store. They

00:16:18.470 --> 00:16:21.090
dumped it on a riverbank. A fisherman found it

00:16:21.090 --> 00:16:24.629
on New Year's Day, 1986. When the police opened

00:16:24.629 --> 00:16:26.909
it, the body was wrapped in plastic and bed sheets,

00:16:27.129 --> 00:16:29.950
and it was packed with mothballs and toilet deodorizer

00:16:29.950 --> 00:16:33.070
blocks to mask the scent of decomposition. But

00:16:33.070 --> 00:16:35.309
he wasn't identified. No, because he was from

00:16:35.309 --> 00:16:37.990
Oregon and had no local ties to Sacramento. Nobody

00:16:37.990 --> 00:16:40.840
identified him. He was a John Doe for three years.

00:16:41.139 --> 00:16:43.539
And during those three years, Puente is writing

00:16:43.539 --> 00:16:46.700
forged letters to his sister. I'm happy. I'm

00:16:46.700 --> 00:16:49.000
traveling. We're having a wonderful time. She's

00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:51.139
keeping him alive on paper just to keep the money

00:16:51.139 --> 00:16:53.799
flowing. It creates a buffer. If the family thinks

00:16:53.799 --> 00:16:56.019
he's happy and on the road, they don't call the

00:16:56.019 --> 00:16:58.740
police. But Gilmuth was the outlier because he

00:16:58.740 --> 00:17:02.659
was moved. The rest, the rest stayed home. Between

00:17:02.659 --> 00:17:07.160
1986 and 1988, the yard at 1426 F Street became

00:17:07.160 --> 00:17:09.500
a graveyard. She was burying them right under

00:17:09.500 --> 00:17:12.160
the windows of the other tenants. The brazenness

00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:14.220
of the yard burials is just hard to comprehend.

00:17:14.559 --> 00:17:16.599
We're talking about a residential lot in the

00:17:16.599 --> 00:17:18.299
middle of the city. Houses are coaxed together.

00:17:18.440 --> 00:17:22.079
People have windows. Betty Mae Palmer, 78 years

00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:25.079
old. She was found in a shallow hole in the front

00:17:25.079 --> 00:17:27.660
yard. But get this, they found her without her

00:17:27.660 --> 00:17:31.200
head, her hands, and her lower legs. Dismemberment.

00:17:31.220 --> 00:17:33.660
It suggests Puente was struggling with the physical

00:17:33.660 --> 00:17:36.960
reality of disposal. A full body is heavy and

00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:39.859
hard to fit into a small hole. By removing the

00:17:39.859 --> 00:17:42.140
extremities, you make the package smaller and

00:17:42.140 --> 00:17:44.960
easier to handle. It's gruesome, practical, and

00:17:44.960 --> 00:17:48.059
just horrifying. It really is. Then there was

00:17:48.059 --> 00:17:51.099
Leona Carpenter, also 78. She was discharged

00:17:51.099 --> 00:17:52.960
from a hospital right into Puente's boarding

00:17:52.960 --> 00:17:55.799
house. She was sick, vulnerable. She died of

00:17:55.799 --> 00:17:57.240
an overdose and went straight into the ground.

00:17:57.400 --> 00:18:00.750
And James Gallop, 62. This one gets to me. He

00:18:00.750 --> 00:18:02.490
had survived a heart attack and had a brain tumor

00:18:02.490 --> 00:18:04.849
operation. He was terrified the tumor had come

00:18:04.849 --> 00:18:07.390
back. And Puente told him, oh, I spoke to the

00:18:07.390 --> 00:18:09.609
doctor. The tumor is benign. You're fine. She

00:18:09.609 --> 00:18:11.789
gave him hope. She gave him false hope so he

00:18:11.789 --> 00:18:13.849
wouldn't go back to the hospital where doctors

00:18:13.849 --> 00:18:16.130
might notice he was being systematically drugged.

00:18:16.730 --> 00:18:19.529
Then she killed him and buried him. And then,

00:18:19.569 --> 00:18:21.950
this is the detail that feels like it's straight

00:18:21.950 --> 00:18:24.369
out of a horror movie. She had a gazebo built

00:18:24.369 --> 00:18:27.869
over the spot. A gazebo? A place to sit and drink

00:18:27.869 --> 00:18:30.539
tea. directly on top of James Gallop's body.

00:18:30.660 --> 00:18:33.019
It serves a dual purpose. It's an amenity for

00:18:33.019 --> 00:18:35.539
the house, adding to that charming boarding house

00:18:35.539 --> 00:18:38.460
aesthetic. But more importantly, it caps the

00:18:38.460 --> 00:18:41.420
grave. You can't accidentally dig up a body if

00:18:41.420 --> 00:18:43.480
there's a concrete slab and a wooden structure

00:18:43.480 --> 00:18:45.819
built over it. Unbelievable. There was Vera Faye

00:18:45.819 --> 00:18:49.839
Martin, 61, buried under a metal tool shed. Dorsey

00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:53.000
Miller, 65, an Army veteran. She vanished just

00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:56.460
weeks after arriving. Puente hired a carpet cleaner

00:18:56.460 --> 00:18:59.359
to scrub a foul -smelling slime out of Miller's

00:18:59.359 --> 00:19:01.039
room. That was almost certainly decomposition

00:19:01.039 --> 00:19:03.519
fluid. It seems she kept the bodies in the rooms

00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:05.720
for days sometimes, likely until she could figure

00:19:05.720 --> 00:19:07.720
out the logistics of the burial at night. And

00:19:07.720 --> 00:19:11.160
Benjamin Fink, 55. He was kind of the town drunk

00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:13.420
character in her narrative. He was struggling

00:19:13.420 --> 00:19:16.500
with severe alcoholism. And just before he disappeared,

00:19:16.740 --> 00:19:19.299
Puente went out and bought 12 bags of cement.

00:19:19.559 --> 00:19:22.140
Fink was found wrapped in a bedspread, secured

00:19:22.140 --> 00:19:24.599
with duct tape. She had poured a concrete slab

00:19:24.599 --> 00:19:26.980
right over him in the side yard, and she told

00:19:26.980 --> 00:19:29.319
the other tenants she was just fixing up the

00:19:29.319 --> 00:19:31.980
property. But how is she digging all these holes?

00:19:32.140 --> 00:19:34.440
I mean, she's an old woman with a bad back. She

00:19:34.440 --> 00:19:36.920
used the tenants. She was a master delegator.

00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:39.259
She'd ask one of her tenants to dig a hole for

00:19:39.259 --> 00:19:42.019
a new fruit tree or a trench for plumbing. Then

00:19:42.019 --> 00:19:44.180
she'd send them away on an errand, dump the body

00:19:44.180 --> 00:19:47.039
in and fill it in partially. Or she'd hire day

00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:49.480
laborers for the heavy lifting, then finish the

00:19:49.480 --> 00:19:52.700
job herself under cover of darkness. The neighbors

00:19:52.700 --> 00:19:54.720
must have smelled something. You cannot have

00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:57.180
seven bodies decomposing in shallow graves without

00:19:57.180 --> 00:19:59.720
a scent. Oh, they did. Neighbors complained constantly

00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:02.700
about a sweet, sickly smell, like rotting fruit

00:20:02.700 --> 00:20:05.539
or backed -up sewage. But Puente had an answer

00:20:05.539 --> 00:20:07.960
for everything. It's the old sewer lines. The

00:20:07.960 --> 00:20:11.000
city really needs to fix them. Or her favorite.

00:20:11.400 --> 00:20:13.839
The fertilizer. Oh, that's just the fish emulsion

00:20:13.839 --> 00:20:16.019
fertilizer I use for my prize -winning roses.

00:20:16.200 --> 00:20:18.259
Which is clever. Because fish emulsion smells

00:20:18.259 --> 00:20:21.339
terrible and organic. It masks the scent of death

00:20:21.339 --> 00:20:23.500
with the scent of gardening. She was always one

00:20:23.500 --> 00:20:27.200
step ahead. Until she got sloppy. Or rather,

00:20:27.339 --> 00:20:29.619
until she underestimated the persistence of one

00:20:29.619 --> 00:20:33.500
particular social worker. Enter Alvaro Burt Montoya.

00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:36.380
Burt was 51, but he functioned at a much younger

00:20:36.380 --> 00:20:38.920
level intellectually. He had schizophrenia and

00:20:38.920 --> 00:20:41.339
developmental disinclinities. He called Dorothea

00:20:41.339 --> 00:20:45.799
Mama. He was, in her eyes, the perfect victim

00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:49.279
-compliant, trusting, completely isolated. But

00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:52.500
he had Judy Moyes. Judy was a social worker with

00:20:52.500 --> 00:20:55.059
the Volunteers of America, and unlike some of

00:20:55.059 --> 00:20:56.740
the others who were maybe just looking to clear

00:20:56.740 --> 00:20:59.960
their caseload, Judy really, truly cared about

00:20:59.960 --> 00:21:02.400
Burt. And when Bert disappeared in August of

00:21:02.400 --> 00:21:05.339
1988, Puente gave her standard line, oh, he went

00:21:05.339 --> 00:21:07.920
to Mexico to visit his brother. But Judy knew

00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:10.299
Bert. She knew he didn't like to travel, he spoke

00:21:10.299 --> 00:21:12.299
very little Spanish, and he would never, ever

00:21:12.299 --> 00:21:14.299
leave without telling her. She didn't buy it

00:21:14.299 --> 00:21:16.559
for a second. So she kept pestering Puente. Let

00:21:16.559 --> 00:21:18.140
me talk to him. Give me a number. Where is he?

00:21:18.440 --> 00:21:20.819
Puente started to panic. The Mexico lie wasn't

00:21:20.819 --> 00:21:22.839
holding up, so she tried this wild, desperate

00:21:22.839 --> 00:21:25.359
gambit. She took one of her handymen and drove

00:21:25.359 --> 00:21:28.180
him out of town. She told him to call Judy Moyes

00:21:28.180 --> 00:21:30.160
and pretend to be Bert's brother -in -law, a

00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:32.559
guy named Michel Obregon. But the accent was

00:21:32.559 --> 00:21:34.920
wrong. Right, it just didn't sound authentic.

00:21:35.259 --> 00:21:37.200
The handyman didn't sound like the person he

00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:39.799
was supposed to be. Judy was immediately suspicious.

00:21:40.539 --> 00:21:44.099
Then Puente had a letter sent to Judy. supposedly

00:21:44.099 --> 00:21:47.240
from Bert, but the letter was typed. Bert couldn't

00:21:47.240 --> 00:21:50.119
type. And this is the detail that broke the case.

00:21:50.299 --> 00:21:52.480
The letter arrived wrapped in a paper towel.

00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:55.480
A paper towel. Why a paper towel? To avoid fingerprints.

00:21:55.940 --> 00:21:58.240
Puente was trying to be clever, but normal people

00:21:58.240 --> 00:22:00.940
don't mail letters wrapped in paper towels. It

00:22:00.940 --> 00:22:03.819
was such a bizarre, paranoid action that it confirmed

00:22:03.819 --> 00:22:06.400
to Judy that something deeply nefarious was happening.

00:22:06.640 --> 00:22:09.079
She called the police. She filed a missing persons

00:22:09.079 --> 00:22:11.700
report. And that brings us to November 11th,

00:22:11.700 --> 00:22:15.450
1988. Police detective John Cabrera and his team

00:22:15.450 --> 00:22:17.769
arrive at the house, and it's just a welfare

00:22:17.769 --> 00:22:19.890
check. They are not expecting to find a serial

00:22:19.890 --> 00:22:22.349
killer. They walk in, and Puente is the picture

00:22:22.349 --> 00:22:25.589
of calm. She lets them look around. But while

00:22:25.589 --> 00:22:28.329
they are there, a tenant named John Sharp, who

00:22:28.329 --> 00:22:31.049
was terrified of Puente, manages to slip a note

00:22:31.049 --> 00:22:33.470
to one of the officers. And the note says, she

00:22:33.470 --> 00:22:36.390
wants me to lie to you. That note changed everything.

00:22:36.529 --> 00:22:39.309
It went from a routine check to a real investigation.

00:22:40.419 --> 00:22:43.039
Detective Cabrera went out to the yard. He noticed

00:22:43.039 --> 00:22:45.299
the soil was disturbed in several places. It

00:22:45.299 --> 00:22:47.799
just looked uneven. He asked Puente if they could

00:22:47.799 --> 00:22:50.900
dig. And she said yes. Sure, go ahead, dig up

00:22:50.900 --> 00:22:53.220
my prize -winning roses. Why would she do that?

00:22:53.380 --> 00:22:55.559
Hubris. Or maybe she thought they wouldn't dig

00:22:55.559 --> 00:22:57.900
deep enough. Maybe she thought the fish emulsion

00:22:57.900 --> 00:23:01.019
story would hold. But Cabrera got a shovel. He

00:23:01.019 --> 00:23:03.119
started digging near an apricot tree. He didn't

00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:05.680
have to dig very deep, did he? No. About a foot

00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:08.079
down, he hit something hard. He broke through

00:23:08.079 --> 00:23:10.720
the dirt and found a shred of cloth. Then he

00:23:10.720 --> 00:23:13.359
uncovered a human leg bone. This is the climax.

00:23:13.779 --> 00:23:16.079
They have a bone. They have a body in the yard.

00:23:16.160 --> 00:23:18.759
The house is swarming with cops. Yeah. And what

00:23:18.759 --> 00:23:21.339
does Dorothea Puente do? This is the moment that

00:23:21.339 --> 00:23:23.599
studies in Trust Bias should focus on forever.

00:23:24.420 --> 00:23:26.579
Puente is standing there on the porch. She's

00:23:26.579 --> 00:23:28.880
watching them dig up her victims. And she turns

00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:32.400
to Detective Cabrera and says, Officer, I'm very

00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:34.759
upset. Would it be all right if I walked down

00:23:34.759 --> 00:23:36.740
to the Clarion Hotel to get a cup of coffee and

00:23:36.740 --> 00:23:40.480
calm my nerves? She asks to go for coffee. While

00:23:40.480 --> 00:23:43.140
there is a human leg bone sticking out of her

00:23:43.140 --> 00:23:46.480
apricot orchard. It's insane. And Detective Carrera

00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:49.240
looks at this 59 -year -old grandmotherly figure

00:23:49.240 --> 00:23:52.720
in her nice red coat looking all frail and shaken.

00:23:52.859 --> 00:23:56.420
And he says, okay. They let her walk away. Now,

00:23:56.440 --> 00:23:58.240
to be fair to the police, she wasn't technically

00:23:58.240 --> 00:24:00.359
under arrest yet. They hadn't identified the

00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:02.940
bone as human for certain in that split second

00:24:02.940 --> 00:24:05.819
or connected it directly to her. But the optics

00:24:05.819 --> 00:24:08.380
are just unbelievable. They saw a little old

00:24:08.380 --> 00:24:11.019
lady who needed a break, not a serial killer

00:24:11.019 --> 00:24:12.940
fleeing the scene of the crime. So she walks

00:24:12.940 --> 00:24:16.410
to the hotel. And she keeps walking. She walked

00:24:16.410 --> 00:24:18.509
right past the coffee shop, hailed a cab, went

00:24:18.509 --> 00:24:20.289
to the bus station, and bought a one -way ticket

00:24:20.289 --> 00:24:22.769
to Los Angeles. By the time the police realized,

00:24:23.009 --> 00:24:24.930
hey, she's been gone an awfully long time, she

00:24:24.930 --> 00:24:26.730
was halfway down the state. The manhunt begins.

00:24:27.470 --> 00:24:29.890
Every news station in California is blasting

00:24:29.890 --> 00:24:33.289
her face. The Death House landlady. But she just

00:24:33.289 --> 00:24:35.829
can't help herself. She gets to L .A., checks

00:24:35.829 --> 00:24:38.829
into a seedy motel, and what does she do? She

00:24:38.829 --> 00:24:41.200
immediately heads to a bar. The pattern just

00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:43.220
repeats itself. She's at the Monte Carlo bar

00:24:43.220 --> 00:24:45.680
in L .A. She meets an elderly pensioner named

00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:48.640
Charles Wildis. She introduces herself as Donna

00:24:48.640 --> 00:24:52.220
Johansson. Within an hour, she's asking him about

00:24:52.220 --> 00:24:55.140
his pension checks. No. Yes. She's asking if

00:24:55.140 --> 00:24:57.720
he lives alone. She is literally scouting her

00:24:57.720 --> 00:24:59.980
next victim while the entire state of California

00:24:59.980 --> 00:25:02.079
is looking for her. Did Charles Wildis watch

00:25:02.079 --> 00:25:04.299
the news? He did. And he looked at this woman

00:25:04.299 --> 00:25:06.160
asking about his money. He looked at the red

00:25:06.160 --> 00:25:08.640
coat she was wearing and he realized this is

00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:11.819
the woman from TV. He excused himself, went to

00:25:11.819 --> 00:25:14.799
a payphone, and called the CBS station in L .A.

00:25:14.900 --> 00:25:18.720
He called CBS, not 911. He called the news. It's

00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:21.000
a very L .A. thing to do. But the news, to their

00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:24.160
credit, called the police. LAPD swarmed the motel.

00:25:24.160 --> 00:25:25.920
They knocked on her door. She didn't fight. She

00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:27.759
just came out and said, I suppose you want to

00:25:27.759 --> 00:25:29.819
talk to me. So she's brought back to Sacramento.

00:25:30.200 --> 00:25:34.200
And now begins the trial of the century. We have

00:25:34.200 --> 00:25:36.019
to spend some time here because the legal battle

00:25:36.019 --> 00:25:38.880
was absolutely fascinating. It was not a slam

00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:40.940
dunk. It really wasn't. The trial didn't even

00:25:40.940 --> 00:25:43.460
start until 1993. That's five years after the

00:25:43.460 --> 00:25:45.960
arrest. That's how long the legal wrangling took.

00:25:46.299 --> 00:25:49.259
The prosecution, led by John Amara, had to prove

00:25:49.259 --> 00:25:51.119
not just that the bodies were there, that was

00:25:51.119 --> 00:25:53.859
undeniable, but that she murdered them. Right,

00:25:53.880 --> 00:25:55.700
because finding a dead body in your yard, as

00:25:55.700 --> 00:25:57.759
bad as it looks, doesn't automatically mean murder.

00:25:57.880 --> 00:26:00.259
It can be natural causes, right? And that was

00:26:00.259 --> 00:26:02.420
exactly the brilliant strategy of her defense

00:26:02.420 --> 00:26:05.960
attorneys, Kevin Climo and Peter Vlotin. They

00:26:05.960 --> 00:26:08.180
looked at the evidence and said, OK, we can't

00:26:08.180 --> 00:26:11.420
deny she's a thief. She's a fraudster. She buried

00:26:11.420 --> 00:26:13.799
these people. Absolutely. She's a bad person,

00:26:13.880 --> 00:26:16.099
but she's not a murderer. That was their narrative.

00:26:16.259 --> 00:26:19.420
These were old, sick people. They were alcoholics.

00:26:19.420 --> 00:26:21.119
They were drug addicts. They died of natural

00:26:21.119 --> 00:26:23.640
causes or accidental overdoses because they were

00:26:23.640 --> 00:26:26.519
just unhealthy. And Dorothea, panicking that

00:26:26.519 --> 00:26:28.880
she would lose the income, buried them to keep

00:26:28.880 --> 00:26:31.319
the checks coming. So they argued she was guilty

00:26:31.319 --> 00:26:36.140
of improper disposal of a body and theft. But

00:26:36.140 --> 00:26:38.839
not homicide. And it was a deviously smart defense.

00:26:39.319 --> 00:26:42.039
Because the bodies were so decomposed, the medical

00:26:42.039 --> 00:26:44.180
examiner couldn't point to a stab wound or a

00:26:44.180 --> 00:26:46.420
bullet hole. There was no smoking gun, so to

00:26:46.420 --> 00:26:48.960
speak. It was all circumstantial. Exactly. It

00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:51.480
relied on the toxicology the domain found in

00:26:51.480 --> 00:26:54.160
the tissues. But the defense argued, well, these

00:26:54.160 --> 00:26:56.720
people were prescribed sleeping pills. Maybe

00:26:56.720 --> 00:26:58.619
they took too many by accident. Maybe they were

00:26:58.619 --> 00:27:01.119
hoarding them. But the prosecution had the handyman,

00:27:01.259 --> 00:27:03.880
Ismael Flores. He was their ace in the hole.

00:27:04.190 --> 00:27:07.009
They gave him full immunity. He testified about

00:27:07.009 --> 00:27:09.630
building the coffin box for Gilmeth. And that

00:27:09.630 --> 00:27:11.950
was the most damaging piece of evidence for that

00:27:11.950 --> 00:27:14.670
particular murder because it showed clear premeditation.

00:27:14.730 --> 00:27:17.210
You don't build a custom coffin for someone who

00:27:17.210 --> 00:27:19.009
died of a heart attack unless you are planning

00:27:19.009 --> 00:27:21.609
to hide the body. The trial went on for months.

00:27:21.710 --> 00:27:24.910
They called over 150 witnesses. The jury was

00:27:24.910 --> 00:27:27.210
sequestered. And when they finally came back

00:27:27.210 --> 00:27:30.079
with a verdict, it was a total mess. It was a

00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:32.980
partial deadlock, and this is crucial to understanding

00:27:32.980 --> 00:27:35.740
how effective that sweet old grandmother defense

00:27:35.740 --> 00:27:39.460
really was. The jury convicted her of three murders,

00:27:39.700 --> 00:27:43.220
Benjamin Fink, Leona Carpenter, and Dorothy Miller.

00:27:44.059 --> 00:27:46.420
These were the cases where the evidence of Delamain

00:27:46.420 --> 00:27:49.339
overdose and the circumstances were just the

00:27:49.339 --> 00:27:51.880
strongest. But they deadlocked on the other six,

00:27:52.039 --> 00:27:54.619
including Everson Gilmuth in the coffin box.

00:27:54.839 --> 00:27:57.440
They couldn't agree. Some jurors just could not

00:27:57.440 --> 00:27:59.519
get past reasonable doubt. They couldn't be 100

00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:01.799
% sure she killed them versus just finding them

00:28:01.799 --> 00:28:04.220
dead and panicking. It shows how difficult it

00:28:04.220 --> 00:28:06.500
is to convict on circumstantial evidence, especially

00:28:06.500 --> 00:28:08.440
when the defendant looks like Mrs. Doubtfire.

00:28:08.619 --> 00:28:10.500
So she's convicted of three counts of first -degree

00:28:10.500 --> 00:28:13.400
murder. Now comes the penalty phase. And the

00:28:13.400 --> 00:28:16.160
prosecutor, John Amara, he wants the gas chamber.

00:28:16.299 --> 00:28:18.640
He wants the death penalty. And again, the jury

00:28:18.640 --> 00:28:21.000
deadlocked saved her. They debated for days and

00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:23.920
days. Ultimately, several jurors refused to sign

00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:26.119
a death warrant for an elderly woman. They just

00:28:26.119 --> 00:28:28.640
couldn't bring themselves to do it. The optics

00:28:28.640 --> 00:28:30.859
won again. So she was sentenced to life in prison

00:28:30.859 --> 00:28:33.339
without the possibility of parole. She goes to

00:28:33.339 --> 00:28:35.859
the Central California Women's Facility in Chochilla.

00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:38.519
She's in her 60s. You'd think she would just

00:28:38.519 --> 00:28:41.700
fade away into prison history. But Dorothea Puente

00:28:41.700 --> 00:28:45.220
had one more act. Of course she did. Her narcissism

00:28:45.220 --> 00:28:47.859
just wouldn't allow her to fade away. She maintained

00:28:47.859 --> 00:28:50.440
her innocence to anyone and everyone who would

00:28:50.440 --> 00:28:52.920
listen. She insisted she was a saint who was

00:28:52.920 --> 00:28:56.880
persecuted by the system. And then in 2004, she

00:28:56.880 --> 00:28:58.720
engaged in one of the most surreal publicity

00:28:58.720 --> 00:29:01.500
stunts in criminal history. She released a cookbook.

00:29:01.660 --> 00:29:04.400
A cookbook? Cooking with a Serial Killer. I have

00:29:04.400 --> 00:29:06.140
the title right here. It's actually called Cooking

00:29:06.140 --> 00:29:08.829
with a Serial Killer. Recipes from Dorothea Puente.

00:29:08.930 --> 00:29:11.289
She corresponded with this publisher named Shane

00:29:11.289 --> 00:29:13.970
Bugbee. She sent him her recipes from prison

00:29:13.970 --> 00:29:17.109
things like tamales, pork roast, burritos. She

00:29:17.109 --> 00:29:19.230
also sent him poems and drawings she'd made.

00:29:19.410 --> 00:29:22.230
Just imagine making a burrito from a recipe written

00:29:22.230 --> 00:29:25.369
by a woman who poisoned her houseguests. It is

00:29:25.369 --> 00:29:28.009
the height of dark irony. It's more than irony.

00:29:28.109 --> 00:29:31.049
It's pure pathology. She wanted to be remembered

00:29:31.049 --> 00:29:33.529
as a nurturer. Food was her tool. It was how

00:29:33.529 --> 00:29:35.809
she lured people in. It was how she drugged them.

00:29:35.910 --> 00:29:38.190
And in the end, it was how she wanted to be defined.

00:29:38.609 --> 00:29:41.849
I wasn't a killer. I was a cook. And the house.

00:29:42.569 --> 00:29:45.390
1426 F Street is still there. I looked it up

00:29:45.390 --> 00:29:47.029
on Google Maps. It's a nice looking place now.

00:29:47.190 --> 00:29:49.990
It is. It's a duplex. For a while, it was empty.

00:29:50.109 --> 00:29:52.029
Then a couple bought it, knowing the full history.

00:29:52.230 --> 00:29:54.009
And they actually leaned into it. They put up

00:29:54.009 --> 00:29:55.849
a sign that said, the public is invited to keep

00:29:55.849 --> 00:29:58.490
out. They even put a mannequin on the porch that

00:29:58.490 --> 00:30:02.000
looked like Dorothea. That is bold. It's become

00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:05.019
a piece of Sacramento dark folklore. People take

00:30:05.019 --> 00:30:08.000
tours. It's a physical monument to the crime.

00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:11.720
Dorothea Puente died in prison in 2011. She was

00:30:11.720 --> 00:30:14.359
82 years old. Which is, ironically, the same

00:30:14.359 --> 00:30:16.319
age or older than many of the people she killed.

00:30:16.539 --> 00:30:18.859
She got to live out the full lifespan that she

00:30:18.859 --> 00:30:21.119
stole from them. So we've gone from the orphanage

00:30:21.119 --> 00:30:23.660
to the Victorian house to the garden to the prison

00:30:23.660 --> 00:30:26.940
cell. When you step back and look at this entire

00:30:26.940 --> 00:30:30.380
unbelievable saga. What is the piece that really

00:30:30.380 --> 00:30:33.160
sticks with you? For me, it's the failure of

00:30:33.160 --> 00:30:36.420
the safety net. We like to think of serial killers

00:30:36.420 --> 00:30:39.380
as these evil geniuses who outsmart the police.

00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:43.059
Prenta wasn't a genius. She was sloppy. She left

00:30:43.059 --> 00:30:46.359
a paper trail a mile wide. The reason she succeeded

00:30:46.359 --> 00:30:48.160
for so long wasn't because she was brilliant.

00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:51.160
It was because her victims were invisible. Society

00:30:51.160 --> 00:30:54.019
just didn't look for them. Exactly. If she had

00:30:54.019 --> 00:30:56.980
been killing wealthy, young socialites with concerned

00:30:56.980 --> 00:30:59.079
families, she would have been caught in a week.

00:30:59.420 --> 00:31:01.740
But she was killing the people we walk past on

00:31:01.740 --> 00:31:04.559
the street without making eye contact. The system,

00:31:04.700 --> 00:31:06.880
the social workers, the police, even the neighbors,

00:31:07.099 --> 00:31:09.480
they were all too happy to have someone else

00:31:09.480 --> 00:31:11.619
deal with the problem people. She was providing

00:31:11.619 --> 00:31:13.920
a service. She was a disposal system for the

00:31:13.920 --> 00:31:15.980
unwanted. And that is a much harder, much more

00:31:15.980 --> 00:31:18.660
uncomfortable truth to face than just one bad

00:31:18.660 --> 00:31:21.579
woman did a terrible thing. It forces us to ask,

00:31:21.680 --> 00:31:25.380
are we complicit? By underfunding social services,

00:31:25.440 --> 00:31:28.480
by ignoring the mentally ill, by warehousing

00:31:28.480 --> 00:31:30.839
the elderly, did we create the perfect environment

00:31:30.839 --> 00:31:33.299
where a Dorothea Puente could thrive? I think

00:31:33.299 --> 00:31:36.059
the answer is, on some level, yes. Predators

00:31:36.059 --> 00:31:38.019
hunt where the prey is vulnerable. And we left

00:31:38.019 --> 00:31:40.380
the gate wide open. That is a heavy thought to

00:31:40.380 --> 00:31:43.339
end on. But it feels like the right one. Before

00:31:43.339 --> 00:31:46.619
we go, I want to leave you with a question. Dorothea

00:31:46.619 --> 00:31:49.559
Puente operated in plain sight for nearly a decade.

00:31:49.759 --> 00:31:52.210
She was a nice lady on the corner. So the next

00:31:52.210 --> 00:31:54.450
time you drive past a quiet boarding house where

00:31:54.450 --> 00:31:57.049
you see a care home sign in a window with drawn

00:31:57.049 --> 00:32:00.990
lace curtains, ask yourself, how much do we really

00:32:00.990 --> 00:32:03.829
know about who is watching The Watchers? And

00:32:03.829 --> 00:32:05.490
how many other invisible people are disappearing

00:32:05.490 --> 00:32:07.349
right now? And we're all just grateful that we

00:32:07.349 --> 00:32:09.009
don't have to ask where they went. Thank you

00:32:09.009 --> 00:32:11.769
for listening to The Deep Dive. Stay curious,

00:32:11.829 --> 00:32:14.670
stay critical, and maybe check in on your neighbors.
