WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.899 Okay, I want you to just for a second close your 00:00:01.899 --> 00:00:05.700 eyes and picture the Cambridgeshire Fence. If 00:00:05.700 --> 00:00:08.220 you've never been there, it's a really specific 00:00:08.220 --> 00:00:11.859 kind of place. It is flat. Just relentlessly 00:00:11.859 --> 00:00:15.080 flat. And you get these huge, open, gray skies 00:00:15.080 --> 00:00:17.079 that feel like they just stretch on forever. 00:00:17.460 --> 00:00:21.399 It's all farmland. It's quiet. And it's crisscrossed 00:00:21.399 --> 00:00:24.859 by these drainage ditches. Yeah, dikes. Exactly. 00:00:24.859 --> 00:00:26.940 And they're just sitting there all stagnant and 00:00:26.940 --> 00:00:29.780 dark. It feels, well, it feels incredibly ordinary. 00:00:29.920 --> 00:00:32.320 You know, the kind of place where nothing ever 00:00:32.320 --> 00:00:35.100 really happens. Until something does. Until something 00:00:35.100 --> 00:00:37.679 does. It's a landscape that hides things very, 00:00:37.780 --> 00:00:39.920 very well. Oh, absolutely. So it's March 20. 00:00:56.009 --> 00:00:57.810 And we're not just talking about a crime here. 00:00:57.850 --> 00:01:01.399 This is a... A sudden, just explosive descent 00:01:01.399 --> 00:01:04.500 into total chaos that just shattered that quiet 00:01:04.500 --> 00:01:06.659 completely. It's interesting that you use the 00:01:06.659 --> 00:01:09.159 word chaos because that's how it felt to everyone 00:01:09.159 --> 00:01:11.700 watching it unfold. Yeah. But for the person 00:01:11.700 --> 00:01:14.540 at the very center of it all. It was actually 00:01:14.540 --> 00:01:17.379 about the exact opposite. It was about absolute 00:01:17.379 --> 00:01:20.379 rigid control. And that's the central tension, 00:01:20.459 --> 00:01:21.959 isn't it? That's what we're going to be wrestling 00:01:21.959 --> 00:01:24.760 with today. We are doing a deep dive into the 00:01:24.760 --> 00:01:28.000 Peterborough ditch murders. And specifically, 00:01:28.040 --> 00:01:30.980 we are unpacking the mind, the motives and the 00:01:30.980 --> 00:01:34.780 actions of Joanna Christine Dennehy. Now, I know 00:01:34.780 --> 00:01:36.599 we cover a lot of dark subjects, but this one. 00:01:37.439 --> 00:01:40.359 This one feels different. It feels rare. It is. 00:01:40.920 --> 00:01:44.180 Statistically, it is incredibly rare. When we 00:01:44.180 --> 00:01:45.780 talk about Joanna Dennehy, we're talking about 00:01:45.780 --> 00:01:49.159 a member of maybe the most infamous and exclusive 00:01:49.159 --> 00:01:51.680 club in British criminal history. You're talking 00:01:51.680 --> 00:01:54.019 about the sentence she received. Exactly. She 00:01:54.019 --> 00:01:56.280 is one of only three women in the entire history 00:01:56.280 --> 00:01:58.760 of the United Kingdom to receive a whole life 00:01:58.760 --> 00:02:01.000 order. Okay, let's just break that down for anyone 00:02:01.000 --> 00:02:02.719 who might not be familiar with the British legal 00:02:02.719 --> 00:02:06.099 system. A life sentence in the UK doesn't always 00:02:06.099 --> 00:02:08.860 mean your whole life, right? Not at all. Usually 00:02:08.860 --> 00:02:12.199 you get a minimum term, say 15, 20 years, something 00:02:12.199 --> 00:02:14.539 like that. And after that, you can apply for 00:02:14.539 --> 00:02:16.400 parole. So there's a light at the end of the 00:02:16.400 --> 00:02:19.419 tunnel, however faint. Correct. Most lifers have 00:02:19.419 --> 00:02:23.340 that flicker of hope, a whole life order. It 00:02:23.340 --> 00:02:25.360 extinguishes that completely. It means exactly 00:02:25.360 --> 00:02:27.699 what it says on the tin. You will never be released. 00:02:27.939 --> 00:02:30.300 You will die in prison. There was no parole board, 00:02:30.479 --> 00:02:34.639 no review, no second chance. It is reserved for, 00:02:34.759 --> 00:02:37.960 quite literally, the worst of the worst. And 00:02:37.960 --> 00:02:40.199 who are the other two women? Myra Henley. The 00:02:40.199 --> 00:02:42.960 Moores murders. And Rosemary West. Cromwell Street. 00:02:43.099 --> 00:02:45.939 So she is in the company of monsters who are, 00:02:46.159 --> 00:02:48.900 I mean, their household names for pure evil. 00:02:49.699 --> 00:02:52.680 Decades of infamy. But Dennehy. Yeah. This was 00:02:52.680 --> 00:02:55.360 2013. This is the modern era. The age of the 00:02:55.360 --> 00:02:58.909 iPhone. Of CCTV on every street corner of digital 00:02:58.909 --> 00:03:00.430 footprints. Yeah, you're not supposed to be able 00:03:00.430 --> 00:03:02.710 to go on a spree like this anymore. And yet she 00:03:02.710 --> 00:03:05.110 orchestrated this campaign of violence that was 00:03:05.110 --> 00:03:08.889 so brutal, so brazen, it felt like something 00:03:08.889 --> 00:03:10.909 from a completely different time. Or like you 00:03:10.909 --> 00:03:13.469 said, a different reality. One she created herself. 00:03:14.030 --> 00:03:16.689 And there's one detail right from the very start 00:03:16.689 --> 00:03:19.189 that just hooks me every single time I read about 00:03:19.189 --> 00:03:21.629 this case. It's the thing that makes you stop 00:03:21.629 --> 00:03:23.849 and just say, wait, what? I think I know what 00:03:23.849 --> 00:03:26.360 you're going to say. One of the victims, a man, 00:03:26.560 --> 00:03:30.360 was found dumped in a ditch, dressed in a black 00:03:30.360 --> 00:03:33.740 sequined dress. And that detail right there. 00:03:33.840 --> 00:03:36.840 Yeah. That is the key that unlocks her entire 00:03:36.840 --> 00:03:39.379 psychological profile. Yeah. It's not just about 00:03:39.379 --> 00:03:42.719 a murder weapon or a body dump site. That dress 00:03:42.719 --> 00:03:45.780 is a message. It's a statement. It takes the 00:03:45.780 --> 00:03:49.580 crime from just being a homicide to being a performative 00:03:49.580 --> 00:03:52.669 act of profound humiliation. OK, so here's our 00:03:52.669 --> 00:03:54.569 mission for this deep dive. We're going to unpack 00:03:54.569 --> 00:03:58.370 what that frantic, terrifying timeline of 10 00:03:58.370 --> 00:04:00.330 days in March that left three men dead and two 00:04:00.330 --> 00:04:01.990 more fighting for their lives. Right. Then we 00:04:01.990 --> 00:04:03.449 have to get into the why. And this is where it 00:04:03.449 --> 00:04:05.449 gets really dark. We're talking psychology, that 00:04:05.449 --> 00:04:07.620 concept of control you mentioned, and this. This 00:04:07.620 --> 00:04:10.780 baffling diagnosis of paraphiliacetam masochism. 00:04:10.819 --> 00:04:13.379 A very specific and rare diagnosis. And we have 00:04:13.379 --> 00:04:15.000 to talk about the accomplices because she didn't 00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:17.079 do this alone. And I have so many questions about 00:04:17.079 --> 00:04:19.500 the men who decided to help her. The accomplices 00:04:19.500 --> 00:04:22.220 are a fascinating study in their own right, in 00:04:22.220 --> 00:04:25.160 manipulation, in group psychology. And finally, 00:04:25.160 --> 00:04:28.100 we have to look at the now because unlike Myra 00:04:28.100 --> 00:04:31.000 Hindley. Joanna Dennehy is still very much alive. 00:04:31.220 --> 00:04:33.839 She's in the prison system. And from what I've 00:04:33.839 --> 00:04:36.980 read in the sources, she is not going quietly. 00:04:37.019 --> 00:04:39.620 Not in the slightest. Her incarceration hasn't 00:04:39.620 --> 00:04:41.699 stopped her need for control. It's just changed 00:04:41.699 --> 00:04:44.360 the arena where she plays the game. Okay, let's 00:04:44.360 --> 00:04:46.720 rewind the clock. Let's go back to March 2013, 00:04:47.100 --> 00:04:50.139 the Peterborough Ditch murders. Set the scene 00:04:50.139 --> 00:04:52.199 for us with the victims, because these weren't... 00:04:52.589 --> 00:04:54.870 random strangers, at least not at first. No, 00:04:54.910 --> 00:04:57.149 and that's a classic feature of many female killers, 00:04:57.230 --> 00:04:59.089 actually. They tend to kill within their orbit. 00:04:59.790 --> 00:05:03.129 Family, husbands, lovers. Dennehy started right 00:05:03.129 --> 00:05:05.389 there. The first victim to be discovered was 00:05:05.389 --> 00:05:08.430 a man named Kevin Lee. Kevin Lee, yes. 48 years 00:05:08.430 --> 00:05:10.370 old. And who was he? He was a local property 00:05:10.370 --> 00:05:13.689 developer, a landlord. And to add another layer 00:05:13.689 --> 00:05:16.189 of complexity to this, he was also Joanna Dennehy's 00:05:16.189 --> 00:05:18.129 lover. So he was providing her with a place to 00:05:18.129 --> 00:05:20.360 live. That's right. He was giving her accommodation, 00:05:20.620 --> 00:05:24.800 and they were involved sexually. Now, just think 00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:26.720 about the power dynamic there for a moment. Well, 00:05:26.800 --> 00:05:29.360 normally, the landlord has all the power. Exactly. 00:05:29.360 --> 00:05:32.199 The landlord holds power over the tenant. But 00:05:32.199 --> 00:05:35.199 in this specific relationship, you can be sure 00:05:35.199 --> 00:05:37.779 that power balance was completely inverted. She 00:05:37.779 --> 00:05:41.339 was in charge. He was killed on March 29, 2013, 00:05:41.600 --> 00:05:44.319 and his body was found pretty quickly the next 00:05:44.319 --> 00:05:47.399 day, March 30, near a place called Newboro. Right. 00:05:47.800 --> 00:05:50.240 And this brings us straight back to that macabre, 00:05:50.300 --> 00:05:53.620 unforgettable detail we teased. The dress. The 00:05:53.620 --> 00:05:55.259 black sequined dress. Let's really analyze what 00:05:55.259 --> 00:05:58.279 this means. You kill someone. That is the ultimate 00:05:58.279 --> 00:06:01.399 act of removing their agency. You've ended their 00:06:01.399 --> 00:06:04.740 life. Game over. But she didn't stop there. Not 00:06:04.740 --> 00:06:07.879 even close. She took the time, while he was dead, 00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:10.439 to wrestle his corpse into a woman's cocktail 00:06:10.439 --> 00:06:13.379 dress. Which is not an easy thing to do, by the 00:06:13.379 --> 00:06:15.899 way. A deadweight body of a grown man, that takes 00:06:15.899 --> 00:06:18.680 incredible physical effort. It takes time. A 00:06:18.680 --> 00:06:21.139 lot of time. Every second you spend doing that, 00:06:21.160 --> 00:06:23.199 you're at risk of being caught. So this wasn't 00:06:23.199 --> 00:06:25.199 an afterthought. This was a priority for her. 00:06:25.339 --> 00:06:27.620 This was part of the act. It was essential to 00:06:27.620 --> 00:06:30.449 her ritual. Psychologically, what is she doing? 00:06:30.550 --> 00:06:33.810 She is feminizing him. She's degrading him. In 00:06:33.810 --> 00:06:36.610 her mind and in the context of the sadomasochistic 00:06:36.610 --> 00:06:39.029 dynamics she operated in, she's stripping him 00:06:39.029 --> 00:06:42.290 of his masculinity. It's a final act of mockery. 00:06:42.389 --> 00:06:45.689 A profound act of mockery. It's her saying, you 00:06:45.689 --> 00:06:48.370 thought you were the man, the landlord, the one 00:06:48.370 --> 00:06:52.029 in charge. No, you are my toy. You are my doll 00:06:52.029 --> 00:06:55.470 to dress up. It's just... It's incredibly disturbing. 00:06:55.750 --> 00:06:57.649 It's just the pleasure for her wasn't just in 00:06:57.649 --> 00:06:59.829 the killing itself, but in the arrangement of 00:06:59.829 --> 00:07:02.170 the body afterwards. And that fits perfectly 00:07:02.170 --> 00:07:04.870 with that diagnosis of paraphiliocetomasochism. 00:07:04.870 --> 00:07:06.769 We'll get into the weeds of that later, but in 00:07:06.769 --> 00:07:09.990 simple terms, the pleasure, the arousal, is derived 00:07:09.990 --> 00:07:12.230 from the total domination and humiliation of 00:07:12.230 --> 00:07:14.050 the object. And to her, Kevin Lee was just an 00:07:14.050 --> 00:07:16.449 object. An object to be used and discarded. But 00:07:16.449 --> 00:07:18.709 Kevin Lee wasn't the only one. This is what makes 00:07:18.709 --> 00:07:21.540 it a spree. While the police are finding him, 00:07:21.579 --> 00:07:23.680 they start to realize other men are missing. 00:07:23.819 --> 00:07:26.519 Yes. The net widens and two more names come up. 00:07:26.939 --> 00:07:29.819 Lukas Lebojewski and John Chapman. OK, let's 00:07:29.819 --> 00:07:32.339 talk about Lukas first. He was a Polish national 00:07:32.339 --> 00:07:34.699 living in Peterborough. Right. 31 years old. 00:07:34.779 --> 00:07:37.699 And the sources say he met Denny Heath through, 00:07:37.800 --> 00:07:40.439 and I'm quoting here, shared interests in drink 00:07:40.439 --> 00:07:42.779 and drugs. Which is often a polite way of saying 00:07:42.779 --> 00:07:45.000 they were moving in very marginalized, vulnerable 00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:47.959 circles. He sounds like an easy target. Very 00:07:47.959 --> 00:07:51.180 much so. Lucas was vulnerable. He was likely 00:07:51.180 --> 00:07:53.120 isolated, you know, being a foreign national, 00:07:53.240 --> 00:07:55.439 maybe without a huge support network right there 00:07:55.439 --> 00:07:57.839 in Peterborough. He was an easy person to make 00:07:57.839 --> 00:08:00.360 disappear. And chronologically, he was killed 00:08:00.360 --> 00:08:03.360 first. That's right. Sometime between March 19th 00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:06.519 and March 29th. The timeline is a little fuzzy 00:08:06.519 --> 00:08:08.379 on it. And then there's John Chapman. John Chapman, 00:08:08.480 --> 00:08:12.579 56, a Falklands veteran. And he was her housemate. 00:08:12.639 --> 00:08:15.910 He lived with her. So even closer to home. killed 00:08:15.910 --> 00:08:18.850 on March 29th. The same day as Kevin Lee. Just 00:08:18.850 --> 00:08:20.850 stop and think about that for a second. March 00:08:20.850 --> 00:08:24.329 29th, that is a day of absolute carnage. It's 00:08:24.329 --> 00:08:27.069 an explosion. She kills her housemate, John Chapman, 00:08:27.149 --> 00:08:29.569 in the very place where they both live. And on 00:08:29.569 --> 00:08:32.129 the exact same day, she also kills her lover 00:08:32.129 --> 00:08:34.750 and landlord, Kevin Lee. It's a crescendo of 00:08:34.750 --> 00:08:37.490 violence. She's tying up loose ends, perhaps, 00:08:37.730 --> 00:08:39.909 but it's more than that. It's like a frenzy. 00:08:40.110 --> 00:08:42.830 And notice the disposal. Kevin Lee was found 00:08:42.830 --> 00:08:46.299 quickly the next day. But Slobozevsky and Chapman, 00:08:46.379 --> 00:08:49.240 they weren't found until April 3rd. No, their 00:08:49.240 --> 00:08:51.740 bodies were dumped later, also in ditches near 00:08:51.740 --> 00:08:54.100 a place called Thorny. So you have the fens, 00:08:54.100 --> 00:08:57.019 this quiet landscape, suddenly becoming this 00:08:57.019 --> 00:09:00.220 graveyard, this dumping ground for the men and 00:09:00.220 --> 00:09:02.600 her life. There is a detail about what happened 00:09:02.600 --> 00:09:04.820 to Lucas Slobozevsky that I found physically 00:09:04.820 --> 00:09:07.799 difficult to read. It honestly made my stomach 00:09:07.799 --> 00:09:10.059 turn. I know exactly what you're referring to. 00:09:10.179 --> 00:09:11.980 It's about what happened in that interim period. 00:09:12.549 --> 00:09:14.590 After she killed him, but before she dumped him 00:09:14.590 --> 00:09:16.370 in the ditch. You're talking about the bin. The 00:09:16.370 --> 00:09:18.590 wheelie bin. Yeah. This is one of the most chilling 00:09:18.590 --> 00:09:21.490 aspects of the entire case because it introduces 00:09:21.490 --> 00:09:24.889 a third party. Someone who is neither a victim 00:09:24.889 --> 00:09:28.029 nor an accomplice in the traditional sense. A 00:09:28.029 --> 00:09:31.529 witness. A child. A 14 -year -old girl. A 14 00:09:31.529 --> 00:09:34.549 -year -old girl. Dennehy had stored Lucas's remains 00:09:34.549 --> 00:09:37.370 in a bin. A standard residential wheelie bin. 00:09:37.870 --> 00:09:41.230 And then she brought this teenager, a girl she 00:09:41.230 --> 00:09:45.019 had befriended. to see the body. I just, I cannot 00:09:45.019 --> 00:09:47.460 get my head around that. Any normal criminal, 00:09:47.620 --> 00:09:49.580 their number one instinct is self -preservation. 00:09:49.740 --> 00:09:52.240 You hide the body, you bury it, you get rid of 00:09:52.240 --> 00:09:54.259 it. You certainly don't show it to a 14 -year 00:09:54.259 --> 00:09:56.259 -old girl who could run straight to the police. 00:09:56.299 --> 00:09:59.559 Why? Why would she do that? Because for Joanna 00:09:59.559 --> 00:10:03.480 Dennehy, the crime is a performance. If you perform 00:10:03.480 --> 00:10:06.000 a masterpiece in an empty theater, does it even 00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:08.100 matter? She needed an audience. She needed an 00:10:08.100 --> 00:10:09.960 audience. She needed someone to validate the 00:10:09.960 --> 00:10:12.440 horror she had created. But there's a much darker 00:10:12.440 --> 00:10:14.440 element to it as well. It's about corruption. 00:10:14.779 --> 00:10:16.679 Corruption. What do you mean? Grooming, in a 00:10:16.679 --> 00:10:19.379 sense. If you are a psychopath, you don't view 00:10:19.379 --> 00:10:21.480 a child as an innocent being to be protected. 00:10:21.840 --> 00:10:25.120 You view them as raw material. Clay to be molded. 00:10:25.120 --> 00:10:27.460 Oh, that's horrible. By showing that girl the 00:10:27.460 --> 00:10:30.600 body. She is dragging that child into her world. 00:10:30.740 --> 00:10:33.740 She is tainting her. She is making her complicit 00:10:33.740 --> 00:10:36.000 in the secret. It's a way of saying, look how 00:10:36.000 --> 00:10:39.259 powerful I am. Look what I can do. And now, you 00:10:39.259 --> 00:10:42.179 know too. It creates this bond of trauma and 00:10:42.179 --> 00:10:44.840 fear. It's monstrous. That's the only word for 00:10:44.840 --> 00:10:47.320 it. It paints this picture of her not just as 00:10:47.320 --> 00:10:51.740 a killer, but as a corruptor. Someone who spreads 00:10:51.740 --> 00:10:54.889 this darkness like a virus. Precisely. And that 00:10:54.889 --> 00:10:57.610 complete lack of fear, that willingness to show 00:10:57.610 --> 00:10:59.830 the body tells us everything we need to know. 00:11:00.090 --> 00:11:02.610 She wasn't operating out of panic. She was operating 00:11:02.610 --> 00:11:04.929 out of pure arrogance. So by the beginning of 00:11:04.929 --> 00:11:07.669 April, we have three bodies. The police are swarming 00:11:07.669 --> 00:11:09.549 all over Cambridgeshire. It's a major, major 00:11:09.549 --> 00:11:12.289 investigation. Kevin Lee's body found in that 00:11:12.289 --> 00:11:14.389 dress has obviously triggered a massive media 00:11:14.389 --> 00:11:17.230 and police response. It's headline news. Logically, 00:11:17.250 --> 00:11:18.769 this is the part of the story where the killer 00:11:18.769 --> 00:11:20.730 goes to ground. You dye your hair. You get a 00:11:20.730 --> 00:11:22.750 fake ID. You hide in a basement. You flee the 00:11:22.750 --> 00:11:24.850 country. Any rational criminal would do that. 00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:27.580 Any criminal motivated by money or revenge would 00:11:27.580 --> 00:11:30.019 absolutely do that. But Joanna Dennehy. She does 00:11:30.019 --> 00:11:32.399 the exact opposite. She goes on a road trip. 00:11:32.559 --> 00:11:35.179 She goes on a road trip. And this marks the transition 00:11:35.179 --> 00:11:37.720 to the next section of our deep dive. The shift 00:11:37.720 --> 00:11:40.399 from Peterborough to Hereford. And this is a 00:11:40.399 --> 00:11:43.120 really crucial pivot point in the story, isn't 00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:45.580 it? It's a huge escalation. Because up until 00:11:45.580 --> 00:11:48.980 now, however horrific, she has killed men she 00:11:48.980 --> 00:11:51.360 knew. Men she had some kind of relationship with. 00:11:51.559 --> 00:11:54.840 Right. They were in her orbit. But now she changes 00:11:54.840 --> 00:11:57.559 the game completely. She leaves the domestic 00:11:57.559 --> 00:12:00.320 sphere of killing and enters the predatory sphere. 00:12:00.539 --> 00:12:03.519 She gets in a car with her accomplice, Gary Stretch. 00:12:03.799 --> 00:12:05.840 And we will definitely get to him in a bit. And 00:12:05.840 --> 00:12:09.620 they drive 140 miles across the country to Hereford. 00:12:09.720 --> 00:12:12.120 Why Hereford? I mean, of all the places in the 00:12:12.120 --> 00:12:14.940 country, why there? Does she have enemies there? 00:12:15.039 --> 00:12:18.809 An ex -boyfriend? Some connection? None. Absolutely 00:12:18.809 --> 00:12:21.730 no connection whatsoever. It's random. And that 00:12:21.730 --> 00:12:24.190 is what makes this next phase so utterly terrifying. 00:12:24.409 --> 00:12:27.269 When she arrives in Hereford, she isn't looking 00:12:27.269 --> 00:12:29.269 for anyone in particular. She is hunting for 00:12:29.269 --> 00:12:31.889 anyone. And who does she find? Dog walkers. It's 00:12:31.889 --> 00:12:36.029 so painfully mundane. It's so innocent. The most 00:12:36.029 --> 00:12:38.710 normal activity imaginable. You're out walking 00:12:38.710 --> 00:12:40.789 your dog. You're probably thinking about what 00:12:40.789 --> 00:12:43.149 to have for dinner. You are in your own world. 00:12:43.580 --> 00:12:46.379 And suddenly you are face to face with a serial 00:12:46.379 --> 00:12:50.000 killer on a mission. She attacks two men completely 00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:53.360 separately. Robin Barisa and John Rogers. Total 00:12:53.360 --> 00:12:56.019 strangers. Complete strangers to her and to each 00:12:56.019 --> 00:12:59.440 other. And she stabs them. And miraculously, 00:12:59.500 --> 00:13:02.460 they both survived. Yes, through sheer luck and 00:13:02.460 --> 00:13:05.120 rapid medical intervention. But make no mistake, 00:13:05.360 --> 00:13:08.320 the intent was to kill. She stabbed them in broad 00:13:08.320 --> 00:13:10.259 daylight. This wasn't some shadowy assassination. 00:13:10.379 --> 00:13:13.279 This was a frenzy. And then just to cap off the 00:13:13.279 --> 00:13:15.860 surreal, bizarre nature of this violence, she 00:13:15.860 --> 00:13:18.759 steals one of their dogs. She steals John Rogers' 00:13:18.940 --> 00:13:21.759 dog, a whippet. It's this indelicate, almost 00:13:21.759 --> 00:13:24.879 petty act of theft on top of a brutal attempted 00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:27.580 murder. It feels chaotic, like a toddler knocking 00:13:27.580 --> 00:13:30.100 over a tower of blocks just to watch it fall, 00:13:30.220 --> 00:13:32.340 but with lethal weapons. I'm going to stab you 00:13:32.340 --> 00:13:35.600 and I'm taking your dog. It's absurd. It is absurd, 00:13:35.700 --> 00:13:37.620 but it speaks to that total lack of boundaries. 00:13:37.740 --> 00:13:40.259 I want it, so I take it, whether that's your 00:13:40.259 --> 00:13:42.190 life or your pet. There's no distinction. Okay, 00:13:42.230 --> 00:13:44.470 we have to drill down on the motive here. Because 00:13:44.470 --> 00:13:46.870 usually when we see an escalation like this, 00:13:46.970 --> 00:13:49.950 from killing known associates to random spree 00:13:49.950 --> 00:13:53.149 killing, something has snapped. But Dennehy seems 00:13:53.149 --> 00:13:57.330 lucid. She's in control. What was driving her? 00:13:57.409 --> 00:13:59.769 What was the fuel in the engine? We actually 00:13:59.769 --> 00:14:02.149 have a quote from Dennehy herself, spoken to 00:14:02.149 --> 00:14:04.210 her accomplice Gary Stretch during this drive. 00:14:04.809 --> 00:14:07.330 And it answers that question with chilling simplicity. 00:14:07.710 --> 00:14:09.590 What did she say? She turned to him and said, 00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:12.940 I want my fun. I need you to get my fun. Fun. 00:14:13.039 --> 00:14:15.519 Fun. She called stabbing random men in the street 00:14:15.519 --> 00:14:18.779 fun. Not just fun. Entertainment. Yeah. Stimulation. 00:14:18.879 --> 00:14:21.500 A hobby. I am genuinely struggling to process 00:14:21.500 --> 00:14:23.879 that. I can understand anger. I can understand 00:14:23.879 --> 00:14:26.179 greed. I can even, on some level, understand 00:14:26.179 --> 00:14:29.080 revenge, however twisted, but fun. It implies 00:14:29.080 --> 00:14:32.480 she was bored. Boredom is actually a huge factor 00:14:32.480 --> 00:14:34.860 in the psychopathic mindset. A very high boredom 00:14:34.860 --> 00:14:37.399 susceptibility. But it's more than that. Later, 00:14:37.539 --> 00:14:39.620 after her arrest, she spoke to a psychiatrist, 00:14:39.779 --> 00:14:42.100 and she described the act of killing as more 00:14:42.100 --> 00:14:45.440 -ish. More -ish, like a bag of crisps, like chocolate. 00:14:45.820 --> 00:14:50.620 Exactly. Once you pop, you can't stop. She told 00:14:50.620 --> 00:14:53.740 him she got a taste for it. This is a crucial 00:14:53.740 --> 00:14:56.700 insight. For Dennehy, violence wasn't a means 00:14:56.700 --> 00:14:59.259 to an end. It wasn't about silencing a witness 00:14:59.259 --> 00:15:02.019 or getting some money. The violence was the end. 00:15:02.220 --> 00:15:04.179 So the act of killing provided a physiological 00:15:04.179 --> 00:15:07.610 or psychological high. A rush. A thrill. And 00:15:07.610 --> 00:15:10.049 like any addiction, you start to build a tolerance. 00:15:10.370 --> 00:15:13.309 Killing Kevin Lee and the others. Maybe that 00:15:13.309 --> 00:15:15.850 initial high wore off. She needed a bigger hit. 00:15:15.970 --> 00:15:18.610 A stronger dose. So she needed the thrill of 00:15:18.610 --> 00:15:20.950 the hunt. The randomness. She needed the randomness 00:15:20.950 --> 00:15:23.830 of Hereford to get that same rush again. That 00:15:23.830 --> 00:15:26.090 is the stuff of nightmares. Because if the motive 00:15:26.090 --> 00:15:28.850 is fun and the trigger is just opportunity, then 00:15:28.850 --> 00:15:30.690 nobody is safe. You don't have to have wronged 00:15:30.690 --> 00:15:32.409 her to become her victim. You just have to be 00:15:32.409 --> 00:15:34.429 there. That is the very definition of a spree 00:15:34.429 --> 00:15:37.629 killer. The unpredictability is the weapon. OK, 00:15:37.710 --> 00:15:39.429 let's pivot. Let's get into the psychology of 00:15:39.429 --> 00:15:41.649 this. We've thrown around some heavy terms, psychopath, 00:15:42.009 --> 00:15:43.909 serial killer. But let's look at the specific 00:15:43.909 --> 00:15:46.809 profile. Who was Joanna Dennehy? She was born 00:15:46.809 --> 00:15:50.610 in August 1982 in St. Albans. And she was a mother. 00:15:50.690 --> 00:15:52.950 She has two children. An absent mother at the 00:15:52.950 --> 00:15:54.750 time of the crimes, but a mother nonetheless. 00:15:55.029 --> 00:15:57.230 Yes. And that actually plays into her victim 00:15:57.230 --> 00:15:59.970 selection in a very, very interesting way. Because 00:15:59.970 --> 00:16:02.059 we need to look at who she didn't kill. Women. 00:16:02.399 --> 00:16:05.679 Correct. She had a strict personal code. She 00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:07.539 told an acquaintance, a man named Mark Lloyd, 00:16:07.799 --> 00:16:09.820 who was also in the car during that Hereford 00:16:09.820 --> 00:16:12.460 trip, that she did not wish to kill a woman. 00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:15.519 Okay. And she was even more specific. She said 00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:17.539 she would never kill a woman with children. That 00:16:17.539 --> 00:16:20.340 is fascinating. So she has this absolute disregard 00:16:20.340 --> 00:16:22.740 for human life. She's stabbing dog walkers for 00:16:22.740 --> 00:16:27.139 fun. But she draws this hard moral line at killing 00:16:27.139 --> 00:16:30.080 mothers. It suggests a really complex and warped 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:33.200 internal landscape. Maybe it's a form of narcissism. 00:16:33.259 --> 00:16:36.100 She sees herself in other mothers, so she spares 00:16:36.100 --> 00:16:38.399 them. Or she sees men as the enemy. Or she views 00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:40.259 men as the enemy or the oppressor that needs 00:16:40.259 --> 00:16:43.159 to be taken down. It could be that in her twisted 00:16:43.159 --> 00:16:45.759 worldview, killing a mother is bad, but killing 00:16:45.759 --> 00:16:48.360 a man is just sport. It's almost like she was 00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:51.039 trying to maintain some shred of... of moral 00:16:51.039 --> 00:16:53.440 superiority i'm a monster but i'm not that kind 00:16:53.440 --> 00:16:56.500 of monster exactly so many criminals have these 00:16:56.500 --> 00:16:59.639 bizarre personal codes to help them rationalize 00:16:59.639 --> 00:17:01.620 their behavior it's a way of looking in the mirror 00:17:01.620 --> 00:17:04.339 but she did have an ambition mark lloyd also 00:17:04.339 --> 00:17:06.640 mentioned she had a target number in mind she 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:09.900 wanted to kill nine men nine why nine is there 00:17:09.900 --> 00:17:12.940 any significance to that number we don't really 00:17:12.940 --> 00:17:16.130 know if the number nine itself had a specific 00:17:16.130 --> 00:17:19.069 numerological meaning to her but the goal behind 00:17:19.069 --> 00:17:21.230 it was very clear she wanted to be like bonnie 00:17:21.230 --> 00:17:24.450 and clyde of course bonnie and clyde that keeps 00:17:24.450 --> 00:17:26.289 coming up in these kinds of cases the romantic 00:17:26.289 --> 00:17:29.490 outlaw myth it's the cinematic influence she 00:17:29.490 --> 00:17:31.890 didn't see herself as a grubby murderer in a 00:17:31.890 --> 00:17:35.690 ditch she saw herself as a star A legend, an 00:17:35.690 --> 00:17:38.170 outlaw hero fighting against the system. The 00:17:38.170 --> 00:17:40.289 reference to Bonnie and Clyde tells us everything 00:17:40.289 --> 00:17:42.549 about her craving for notoriety. She wanted the 00:17:42.549 --> 00:17:45.210 fame. She wanted to be remembered. She absolutely 00:17:45.210 --> 00:17:47.349 did. But here's the thing about Bonnie and Clyde. 00:17:47.430 --> 00:17:51.130 They were a duo, a genuine partnership. Clyde 00:17:51.130 --> 00:17:53.589 wasn't just Bonnie's driver. He was her equal 00:17:53.589 --> 00:17:55.970 partner in crime. Which brings us to the next 00:17:55.970 --> 00:18:00.269 section, the accomplices. Because Joanna Dennehy 00:18:00.269 --> 00:18:03.400 had these men around her. But they weren't exactly 00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:06.599 Clydes, were they? No, not at all. The dynamic 00:18:06.599 --> 00:18:09.019 was very, very different. Let's start with the 00:18:09.019 --> 00:18:11.220 main one, Gary Stretch. Gary Stretch, formerly 00:18:11.220 --> 00:18:13.619 Gary Richards. This guy is physically enormous. 00:18:13.799 --> 00:18:16.799 He's seven feet, three inches tall. He is physically 00:18:16.799 --> 00:18:21.559 imposing. A giant of a man. And yet, look at 00:18:21.559 --> 00:18:23.680 how the media and the courts described him. They 00:18:23.680 --> 00:18:26.299 called him Dennehy's nodding dog. That is, I 00:18:26.299 --> 00:18:29.180 mean, that's just humiliating. It is. But it 00:18:29.180 --> 00:18:32.289 captures the power dynamic. Perfectly. Here you 00:18:32.289 --> 00:18:34.549 have this relatively petite woman and this giant 00:18:34.549 --> 00:18:37.750 man, and yet she was holding the leash. So what 00:18:37.750 --> 00:18:40.069 was his role specifically? He was the driver. 00:18:40.190 --> 00:18:42.529 He was the getaway car. He drove her to Hereford. 00:18:42.650 --> 00:18:44.549 He was there when she jumped out of the car to 00:18:44.549 --> 00:18:46.569 stab people. He didn't wield the knife himself, 00:18:46.789 --> 00:18:49.049 but he facilitated the terror. And he was convicted 00:18:49.049 --> 00:18:51.450 for it. He was convicted of attempted murder 00:18:51.450 --> 00:18:54.220 for his role in that spree. Why? I mean, really, 00:18:54.299 --> 00:18:57.140 why? You're a 47 -year -old man. You are 7 '3". 00:18:57.140 --> 00:19:00.380 Why are you acting as a chauffeur for a serial 00:19:00.380 --> 00:19:03.460 killer half your size? Was he terrified of her? 00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:05.579 Was he in love with her? What was going on? It's 00:19:05.579 --> 00:19:07.619 the million -dollar question, isn't it? And the 00:19:07.619 --> 00:19:10.519 answer is likely a toxic cocktail of both, fear 00:19:10.519 --> 00:19:14.250 and infatuation. We see this in what are sometimes 00:19:14.250 --> 00:19:17.609 called folia de cases, a shared psychosis. Right. 00:19:17.750 --> 00:19:20.809 Denny was charismatic. She was incredibly manipulative. 00:19:20.910 --> 00:19:22.950 She could be charming one minute and terrifying 00:19:22.950 --> 00:19:25.930 the next. She probably alternated between seducing 00:19:25.930 --> 00:19:28.789 him and threatening him. If she can stab a man 00:19:28.789 --> 00:19:31.230 to death and dress him in sequence, imagine what 00:19:31.230 --> 00:19:33.329 she could threaten to do to Gary Stretch if he 00:19:33.329 --> 00:19:35.809 didn't comply. So he just becomes a tool, an 00:19:35.809 --> 00:19:38.549 extension of her will. Precisely. A nodding dog. 00:19:38.849 --> 00:19:41.430 He completely surrendered his own agency to her. 00:19:41.680 --> 00:19:43.519 And he wasn't the only one. There was also Leslie 00:19:43.519 --> 00:19:46.380 Layton. Leslie Layton, 36. He was more involved 00:19:46.380 --> 00:19:48.740 in the cover -up, perverting the course of justice, 00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:51.259 helping her dispose of evidence after the Peterborough 00:19:51.259 --> 00:19:53.740 murders. And a Robert Moore. Robert Moore, who 00:19:53.740 --> 00:19:56.839 was 55. His charge was assisting an offender. 00:19:57.640 --> 00:20:00.220 He basically provided her with shelter when she 00:20:00.220 --> 00:20:02.460 was on the run. It's like she had this gravitational 00:20:02.460 --> 00:20:05.579 pull. She collected these Menstretch, Layton, 00:20:05.700 --> 00:20:08.619 Moore, and they just orbited her, doing her bidding, 00:20:08.700 --> 00:20:11.490 and just... completely ruining their own lives 00:20:11.490 --> 00:20:14.049 in the process. And here's a really telling detail 00:20:14.049 --> 00:20:16.869 about their submission to her. When it came to 00:20:16.869 --> 00:20:19.869 the trial, both Stretch and Layton stood in the 00:20:19.869 --> 00:20:23.250 dock, but they both decided not to give evidence 00:20:23.250 --> 00:20:25.549 in their own defense. They just stayed silent. 00:20:25.670 --> 00:20:28.069 Total silence. They didn't try to explain themselves. 00:20:28.309 --> 00:20:30.450 They didn't try to blame her. They didn't offer 00:20:30.450 --> 00:20:32.839 any mitigation. They just... took it that feels 00:20:32.839 --> 00:20:35.259 like the ultimate sign of her control even when 00:20:35.259 --> 00:20:37.220 she's caught even when they're facing decades 00:20:37.220 --> 00:20:40.200 in prison they can't or won't break ranks her 00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:43.380 power over them was that absolute or maybe they 00:20:43.380 --> 00:20:45.200 just knew there was nothing they could say the 00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:47.400 evidence was just so overwhelming but either 00:20:47.400 --> 00:20:50.880 way that silence speaks volumes about the power 00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:53.960 she held so the spree ends the police finally 00:20:53.960 --> 00:20:56.720 catch up with them the car is stopped and we 00:20:56.720 --> 00:20:59.619 move to the trial now usually this is where we 00:20:59.619 --> 00:21:02.230 get the big legal drama The defense team trying 00:21:02.230 --> 00:21:04.589 to argue insanity or diminish responsibility. 00:21:04.809 --> 00:21:08.190 They try to find a loophole. Of course. So it's 00:21:08.190 --> 00:21:11.190 November 2013. We're at the old Bailey in London. 00:21:11.390 --> 00:21:14.269 The stage is set. The press are all there. The 00:21:14.269 --> 00:21:16.490 families, the victims are there. Everyone is 00:21:16.490 --> 00:21:19.809 bracing for weeks, maybe months of gruesome, 00:21:19.809 --> 00:21:22.710 painful testimony. Right. And Joanna Dennehy 00:21:22.710 --> 00:21:25.309 walks into the courtroom and drops an absolute 00:21:25.309 --> 00:21:28.279 bombshell. She pleads guilty. To everything. 00:21:28.400 --> 00:21:30.680 All three counts of murder, both counts of attempted 00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:33.859 murder, the whole lot. Just like that. No plea 00:21:33.859 --> 00:21:36.079 deal. No negotiation with the prosecution. Nothing. 00:21:36.140 --> 00:21:38.579 Just like that. Her own legal team was completely 00:21:38.579 --> 00:21:40.960 blindsided. The judge was visibly surprised. 00:21:41.339 --> 00:21:43.619 When she was asked by the court clerk to confirm 00:21:43.619 --> 00:21:46.079 her plea, she simply said, I have pleaded guilty 00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:49.299 and that's that. And that's that. It's so dismissive. 00:21:49.299 --> 00:21:51.140 It's like she's bored with the entire process. 00:21:51.500 --> 00:21:54.579 It's incredibly dismissive, but it's also highly 00:21:54.579 --> 00:21:57.759 strategic. Her sister, Maria, actually gave an 00:21:57.759 --> 00:21:59.920 interview where she just nailed it. She said, 00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:08.279 There's that word again, control. Think about 00:22:08.279 --> 00:22:11.779 it. By pleading guilty, she completely shuts 00:22:11.779 --> 00:22:15.240 down the show. She denies the prosecution the 00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:18.619 chance to lay out their entire case in painstaking 00:22:18.619 --> 00:22:22.109 detail. She denies the victims' families The 00:22:22.109 --> 00:22:24.730 catharsis of hearing a jury deliver a guilty 00:22:24.730 --> 00:22:27.109 verdict. She decides when it starts and she decides 00:22:27.109 --> 00:22:29.630 when it ends. She is the writer, director, and 00:22:29.630 --> 00:22:32.769 star of her own grim play. And everyone else 00:22:32.769 --> 00:22:34.829 is just a supporting character. And her behavior 00:22:34.829 --> 00:22:37.230 in court wasn't exactly what you'd call remorseful, 00:22:37.230 --> 00:22:39.930 was it? Far from it. She was seen laughing in 00:22:39.930 --> 00:22:42.569 the dock, smirking at the press, treating the 00:22:42.569 --> 00:22:44.890 old Bailey like it was a social club. Laughing 00:22:44.890 --> 00:22:46.650 while the court is hearing the details of how 00:22:46.650 --> 00:22:49.029 she butchered three men. It's the behavior of 00:22:49.029 --> 00:22:50.970 someone who is completely and utterly detached 00:22:50.970 --> 00:22:53.529 from the moral reality of their actions. And 00:22:53.529 --> 00:22:55.650 then she had an outburst. She couldn't help herself. 00:22:55.769 --> 00:22:58.049 She started shouting at the judge, Mr. Justice 00:22:58.049 --> 00:23:00.819 Spencer. What did she say to him? She shouted, 00:23:00.900 --> 00:23:02.839 I don't want to be controlled by anybody. I don't 00:23:02.839 --> 00:23:04.700 want to be controlled by my lawyers, by the police, 00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:08.000 by anybody. Wow. She literally said the quiet 00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:11.440 part out loud. That's the thesis statement for 00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:14.359 her entire life. I will not be controlled. And 00:23:14.359 --> 00:23:16.900 that is precisely why the sentence she received 00:23:16.900 --> 00:23:20.259 was so necessary and so fitting. Mr. Justice 00:23:20.259 --> 00:23:24.019 Spencer saw right through her. On February 28th, 00:23:24.019 --> 00:23:27.680 2014, he delivered his sentencing remarks. And 00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:30.759 he called her a cruel, calculating, selfish, 00:23:30.859 --> 00:23:33.440 and manipulative serial killer. He did not hold 00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:35.859 back. He couldn't. He highlighted the premeditation. 00:23:36.319 --> 00:23:38.599 He highlighted the sadomasochistic nature of 00:23:38.599 --> 00:23:41.359 the crimes. The complete and total lack of remorse. 00:23:41.819 --> 00:23:44.059 And he handed down the whole life order. You 00:23:44.059 --> 00:23:46.220 will never be released. The ultimate control 00:23:46.220 --> 00:23:48.839 placed upon the one woman who refused to be controlled 00:23:48.839 --> 00:23:52.380 by anyone. Justice. Finally. And usually this 00:23:52.380 --> 00:23:54.319 is where the story ends. The cell door slams. 00:23:54.319 --> 00:23:56.880 The credits roll. But with Joanna Dennehy, the 00:23:56.880 --> 00:23:59.099 story doesn't end with the sentence. If anything, 00:23:59.400 --> 00:24:01.539 the prison years are just the sequel. It really 00:24:01.539 --> 00:24:04.859 is Joanna Dennehy, the prison years. And it is 00:24:04.859 --> 00:24:07.220 just as chaotic and dramatic as the murders themselves. 00:24:07.480 --> 00:24:10.099 Because even in a maximum security prison, she 00:24:10.099 --> 00:24:12.079 found new ways to manipulate the environment 00:24:12.079 --> 00:24:14.299 and everyone in it. Okay, let's talk about the 00:24:14.299 --> 00:24:16.980 escape plot. This was at H &P Bronzefield, and 00:24:16.980 --> 00:24:19.299 it happened while she was on remand, right? Even 00:24:19.299 --> 00:24:21.480 before she was sentenced. That's right. She wasn't 00:24:21.480 --> 00:24:23.799 sitting in her cell reflecting on her sins. She 00:24:23.799 --> 00:24:26.710 was writing a diary. And in that diary, she was 00:24:26.710 --> 00:24:29.710 meticulously plotting a breakout. And this wasn't 00:24:29.710 --> 00:24:32.490 a tie bedsheets together and climb out a window 00:24:32.490 --> 00:24:35.230 kind of plot, was it? No, this was gruesome. 00:24:35.230 --> 00:24:37.990 It was incredibly violent. The plan was to target 00:24:37.990 --> 00:24:41.950 a specific female prison officer to kill or seriously 00:24:41.950 --> 00:24:44.829 injure them. But the key detail of the plan. 00:24:45.259 --> 00:24:47.119 She intended to cut off the officer's finger. 00:24:47.259 --> 00:24:50.039 Why the finger? Biometrics. To use the amputated 00:24:50.039 --> 00:24:52.519 finger and its fingerprint to bypass the prison's 00:24:52.519 --> 00:24:55.019 electronic security systems to open the doors. 00:24:55.259 --> 00:24:57.279 That is, I mean, that is straight out of a really 00:24:57.279 --> 00:25:00.539 dark, gory spy thriller. It shows she was looking 00:25:00.539 --> 00:25:02.799 at the prison guards, not as human beings, but 00:25:02.799 --> 00:25:05.839 as keys. Literally, I need that finger to open 00:25:05.839 --> 00:25:08.799 that door. It is utilitarian psychopathy at its 00:25:08.799 --> 00:25:11.220 absolute worst. So the authorities found the 00:25:11.220 --> 00:25:13.579 diary. They foiled the plot. What was the consequence? 00:25:13.900 --> 00:25:16.279 They put her in segregation, solitary confinement. 00:25:16.759 --> 00:25:19.880 And she was there for two years, from September 00:25:19.880 --> 00:25:23.519 2013 to September 2015. So how did the woman 00:25:23.519 --> 00:25:27.039 who kills for fun handle being alone with her 00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:29.619 own thoughts? She hated it. And a twist that 00:25:29.619 --> 00:25:31.710 is just... almost laughable if it weren't so 00:25:31.710 --> 00:25:34.549 deeply infuriating, she sued the prison service. 00:25:34.769 --> 00:25:37.069 She sued them for what? She sued for damages. 00:25:37.509 --> 00:25:40.089 She claimed that the prolonged isolation violated 00:25:40.089 --> 00:25:42.869 her human rights. She told the court it had left 00:25:42.869 --> 00:25:45.490 her tearful and upset. Hold on. The woman who 00:25:45.490 --> 00:25:47.829 dressed a corpse in a sequined dress for a laugh, 00:25:48.069 --> 00:25:50.930 the woman who showed a dead body in a bin to 00:25:50.930 --> 00:25:53.710 a 14 -year -old, she was tearful and upset because 00:25:53.710 --> 00:25:56.190 she was lonely. The irony is absolutely blinding, 00:25:56.190 --> 00:25:59.369 but shows her profound narcissism. Her pain matters. 00:25:59.569 --> 00:26:02.509 Her discomfort is a human rights violation. The 00:26:02.509 --> 00:26:04.869 unimaginable pain she inflicted on dozens of 00:26:04.869 --> 00:26:07.670 people. Completely irrelevant. Did she win? Please 00:26:07.670 --> 00:26:09.670 tell me she didn't win that case. She did not. 00:26:10.190 --> 00:26:13.529 The high court, specifically a Mr. Justice Singh, 00:26:13.730 --> 00:26:17.069 rejected her claim. The government lawyers argued, 00:26:17.289 --> 00:26:20.170 quite rightly, that she posed a massive risk 00:26:20.170 --> 00:26:22.930 to the public. She had plotted to sever a person's 00:26:22.930 --> 00:26:26.210 finger. Segregation was deemed necessary and 00:26:26.210 --> 00:26:28.490 proportionate. Thank goodness for some sanity 00:26:28.490 --> 00:26:30.809 in the courts. But she didn't stay in solitary 00:26:30.809 --> 00:26:33.210 forever. She was eventually integrated back into 00:26:33.210 --> 00:26:36.890 the main prison population. And that led to romance. 00:26:37.369 --> 00:26:39.630 Romance might be a generous term for it, but 00:26:39.630 --> 00:26:42.890 yes, relationships. In 2018, she requested official 00:26:42.890 --> 00:26:45.630 permission to marry a fellow prisoner, a woman 00:26:45.630 --> 00:26:48.150 named Haley Palmer. Haley Palmer. I'm going to 00:26:48.150 --> 00:26:50.009 guess Haley's family wasn't buying a hat for 00:26:50.009 --> 00:26:52.400 the wedding. They were terrified. They gave interviews 00:26:52.400 --> 00:26:54.839 saying it would endanger her. And they were absolutely 00:26:54.839 --> 00:26:56.759 right. The relationship was incredibly volatile. 00:26:57.160 --> 00:26:59.980 In 2018, Dennehy and Palmer entered into a suicide 00:26:59.980 --> 00:27:02.500 pact together in prison. So it was just a destructive 00:27:02.500 --> 00:27:05.579 spiral. Completely. But even after that, as late 00:27:05.579 --> 00:27:08.420 as 2021, there were reports that they still intended 00:27:08.420 --> 00:27:11.299 to marry after Palmer was released. It's a bizarre 00:27:11.299 --> 00:27:14.700 codependent situation. But then, Dennehy seemed 00:27:14.700 --> 00:27:18.519 to move on. In 2020, she was linked to another 00:27:18.519 --> 00:27:21.299 murderer. Emma Aitken. And who is Emma Aitken? 00:27:21.519 --> 00:27:24.000 She was serving time for killing a man and dumping 00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:26.380 his body outside a social club. It's like a networking 00:27:26.380 --> 00:27:29.000 event for the UK's most dangerous women. She 00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:30.980 just finds the other predators and gravitates 00:27:30.980 --> 00:27:34.420 right toward them. Birds of a feather. But there 00:27:34.420 --> 00:27:36.680 is one interaction that really stands out above 00:27:36.680 --> 00:27:39.099 all others. And it involves the other member 00:27:39.099 --> 00:27:41.000 of that whole life order club we mentioned right 00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:43.519 at the start. Don't tell me Rose West. How is 00:27:43.519 --> 00:27:45.880 West? They ended up in the same prison. For a 00:27:45.880 --> 00:27:49.319 time, yes. At Lowe -Newton Prison in County Durham 00:27:49.319 --> 00:27:53.299 back in 2019. Now you might think, two female 00:27:53.299 --> 00:27:55.559 serial killers, both serving whole life orders, 00:27:55.779 --> 00:27:58.779 maybe they'd swap stories, bond over their shared 00:27:58.779 --> 00:28:01.339 infamy. Knowing Dennehy's absolute need to be 00:28:01.339 --> 00:28:04.299 the alpha in any situation, I seriously doubt 00:28:04.299 --> 00:28:07.539 that. You're spot on. Upon arrival, Dennehy allegedly 00:28:07.539 --> 00:28:09.700 made it known that she was going to kill Rose 00:28:09.700 --> 00:28:12.670 West. She threatened to kill the only other woman 00:28:12.670 --> 00:28:15.250 in the country with a sentence as heavy as hers. 00:28:15.490 --> 00:28:18.910 It's a pure dominance display. I'm the boss of 00:28:18.910 --> 00:28:21.250 this wing. I'm the most dangerous person here. 00:28:22.490 --> 00:28:25.049 Reports at the time said that West was so terrified 00:28:25.049 --> 00:28:27.450 she was moved to another prison shortly after, 00:28:27.630 --> 00:28:29.910 although the government officially denied the 00:28:29.910 --> 00:28:32.130 move was because of that specific threat. But 00:28:32.130 --> 00:28:34.869 the narrative is clear. Oh, absolutely. Joanna 00:28:34.869 --> 00:28:37.369 Dennehy cannot and will not share the spotlight. 00:28:37.549 --> 00:28:40.089 It's just exhausting hearing about it. The constant 00:28:40.089 --> 00:28:43.349 manipulation, the threats, the plots. It makes 00:28:43.349 --> 00:28:45.470 you realize that the whole life order isn't just 00:28:45.470 --> 00:28:48.369 about punishment. It's about containment. She 00:28:48.369 --> 00:28:50.710 is a force of nature that simply cannot be let 00:28:50.710 --> 00:28:53.309 out into the world. Which brings us to the final 00:28:53.309 --> 00:28:56.049 and in some ways the most frustrating part of 00:28:56.049 --> 00:28:59.259 this whole story. The systemic failures. Because 00:28:59.259 --> 00:29:01.519 before she was a maximum security prisoner, she 00:29:01.519 --> 00:29:03.720 was a probationer. Right. This came out after 00:29:03.720 --> 00:29:06.019 the trial. While she was killing Kevin Lee, while 00:29:06.019 --> 00:29:08.240 she was killing Lucas and John, she was actually 00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:10.539 under the official supervision of the probation 00:29:10.539 --> 00:29:13.559 service. She was. She had previous convictions 00:29:13.559 --> 00:29:16.960 for assault and for owning a dangerous dog. She 00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:19.119 was on their radar. She was a known quantity. 00:29:19.619 --> 00:29:22.680 So how? How does a woman on probation go on a 00:29:22.680 --> 00:29:24.980 triple murder spree over 10 days without anyone 00:29:24.980 --> 00:29:27.299 noticing something is very wrong? The official 00:29:27.299 --> 00:29:30.500 review of the case. done after the fact, concluded 00:29:30.500 --> 00:29:33.099 that the staff dealing with her were, and I quote, 00:29:33.779 --> 00:29:36.119 inexperienced. Inexperienced. That sounds like 00:29:36.119 --> 00:29:37.880 a very polite way of saying they were completely 00:29:37.880 --> 00:29:39.920 out of their depth. Mansedly out of their depth. 00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:42.000 You have to understand, probation officers are 00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:44.759 often overworked, dealing with huge caseloads 00:29:44.759 --> 00:29:47.640 of fairly standard offenders. And then in walks 00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:50.460 Joanna Dennehy. She's manipulative. She's charming 00:29:50.460 --> 00:29:52.500 when she wants to be. She's a pathological liar. 00:29:52.720 --> 00:29:55.609 An inexperienced officer just... Didn't stand 00:29:55.609 --> 00:29:58.009 a chance against that. They saw a woman with 00:29:58.009 --> 00:30:00.769 a dangerous dog charge and some assault priors. 00:30:00.910 --> 00:30:03.470 They didn't see the predator lurking just underneath 00:30:03.470 --> 00:30:05.829 the surface. They missed the signs. They missed 00:30:05.829 --> 00:30:08.269 the escalation. They missed the thirst for blood 00:30:08.269 --> 00:30:10.910 that she was developing. And three men paid the 00:30:10.910 --> 00:30:13.250 ultimate price for that bureaucratic blind spot. 00:30:13.470 --> 00:30:15.769 It's a tragedy. And it's a lesson, isn't it? 00:30:15.809 --> 00:30:18.509 You cannot treat every offender as just a tick 00:30:18.509 --> 00:30:21.450 box exercise. Some of them are wolves in sheep's 00:30:21.450 --> 00:30:24.859 clothing. or in this case, just wolves. It highlights 00:30:24.859 --> 00:30:27.279 the desperate need for specialized training when 00:30:27.279 --> 00:30:30.039 dealing with severe personality disorders. A 00:30:30.039 --> 00:30:32.480 standard weekly check -in is just not enough 00:30:32.480 --> 00:30:35.339 for a psychopath. So we've covered so much ground. 00:30:35.460 --> 00:30:37.319 We've been to the ditches of the Fens. We've 00:30:37.319 --> 00:30:39.079 seen the black sequined dress. We've been in 00:30:39.079 --> 00:30:41.579 that car to Hereford for fun. We've seen the 00:30:41.579 --> 00:30:43.640 nodding dog accomplices and the laughter in the 00:30:43.640 --> 00:30:45.960 courtroom. When you step back and you look at 00:30:45.960 --> 00:30:48.380 the whole horrifying picture of Joanna Dennehy, 00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:51.440 what is the single biggest takeaway for you? 00:30:51.950 --> 00:30:53.670 For me, it always goes back to that one word 00:30:53.670 --> 00:30:56.589 she used, more -ish. It's such a terrifyingly 00:30:56.589 --> 00:30:59.170 mundane word, but it's a profound insight into 00:30:59.170 --> 00:31:01.369 the mind of a thrill killer. We like to think 00:31:01.369 --> 00:31:04.529 of murder as having a reason, anger, money, jealousy. 00:31:04.990 --> 00:31:06.930 But Dennehy teaches us that for some people, 00:31:06.950 --> 00:31:09.829 the act itself is the reason. The suffering is 00:31:09.829 --> 00:31:12.490 the point. For me, it's the stark contrast between 00:31:12.490 --> 00:31:14.769 the fantasy she had in her head and the grim 00:31:14.769 --> 00:31:18.039 reality. She wanted to be Bonnie and Clyde. She 00:31:18.039 --> 00:31:20.559 wanted that cinematic glamour. But there was 00:31:20.559 --> 00:31:23.140 no glamour. There was just a dirty wheelie bin 00:31:23.140 --> 00:31:25.559 and a muddy ditch and a stolen dog and a sad 00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:28.240 giant man who couldn't say no to her. It wasn't 00:31:28.240 --> 00:31:31.700 a movie. It was just pathetic, ugly waste. That 00:31:31.700 --> 00:31:34.630 is the most important point to land on. These 00:31:34.630 --> 00:31:37.130 killers try to mythologize themselves. They want 00:31:37.130 --> 00:31:39.130 us to see the legend they've created. Our job 00:31:39.130 --> 00:31:41.690 is to strip all that away and see the sordid, 00:31:41.690 --> 00:31:44.529 sad reality underneath it all. And yet here we 00:31:44.529 --> 00:31:46.869 are, still talking about her. The documentaries 00:31:46.869 --> 00:31:49.650 are still being made. In a way, she got her wish. 00:31:49.829 --> 00:31:52.430 She is infamous. She is. And that is the central 00:31:52.430 --> 00:31:54.990 paradox of true crime, isn't it? We analyze them 00:31:54.990 --> 00:31:57.150 to understand them, to protect ourselves from 00:31:57.150 --> 00:31:59.349 them. But in doing so, we invariably give them 00:31:59.349 --> 00:32:01.549 the attention they so desperately crave. I want 00:32:01.549 --> 00:32:03.130 to leave our listener with one final thought 00:32:03.130 --> 00:32:05.990 today. We have a justice system that is designed, 00:32:06.150 --> 00:32:09.470 at least in theory, for rehabilitation. Or at 00:32:09.470 --> 00:32:11.390 the very least, for punishment that fits the 00:32:11.390 --> 00:32:14.029 crime. But how does any system actually cope 00:32:14.029 --> 00:32:16.529 with a Joanna Dennehy? Someone who explicitly 00:32:16.529 --> 00:32:19.990 states they kill for fun. Someone who views a 00:32:19.990 --> 00:32:22.289 prison sentence not as a punishment, but just 00:32:22.289 --> 00:32:25.789 as a new level in a game. A new stage for manipulation. 00:32:25.849 --> 00:32:28.799 It's the ultimate challenge for the system. When 00:32:28.799 --> 00:32:31.140 a human being so completely rejects their own 00:32:31.140 --> 00:32:34.059 humanity, how do we humanely manage them for 00:32:34.059 --> 00:32:36.640 the rest of their natural life? I'm not sure 00:32:36.640 --> 00:32:38.259 we have a perfect answer to that yet. It's a 00:32:38.259 --> 00:32:40.380 chilling thought to end on. We'll be back next 00:32:40.380 --> 00:32:42.000 time with another stack of sources and another 00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:45.059 deep dive. Until then, keep your eyes open and 00:32:45.059 --> 00:32:45.460 stay safe.