WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.000 All right, so it's January 2026, and if you scan 00:00:04.000 --> 00:00:06.480 the cultural landscape, there's this one figure 00:00:06.480 --> 00:00:09.480 who just, I mean, he refuses to go away. And 00:00:09.480 --> 00:00:11.599 by all logical and medical accounts, should have 00:00:11.599 --> 00:00:14.320 gone away, what, 50 years ago? Exactly. A guy 00:00:14.320 --> 00:00:16.800 who was supposed to be a casualty by 1974 tops. 00:00:17.800 --> 00:00:19.960 We were talking about James Newell Osterberg 00:00:19.960 --> 00:00:22.879 Jr. But nobody calls him that. Nobody calls him 00:00:22.879 --> 00:00:25.980 that. To the world he is and always will be Iggy 00:00:25.980 --> 00:00:28.179 Pop. And the reason we're doing this deep dive 00:00:28.179 --> 00:00:31.640 is... It's not just that he's a rock star. It's 00:00:31.640 --> 00:00:34.619 that he is a walking breathing paradox completely. 00:00:34.859 --> 00:00:36.759 I mean think about it This is the man who basically 00:00:36.759 --> 00:00:39.280 invented the stage dive who rolled around in 00:00:39.280 --> 00:00:41.840 broken glass as part of the show. And now, here 00:00:41.840 --> 00:00:45.200 in 2026, he's a respected scholar of Roman history. 00:00:45.280 --> 00:00:47.840 And get this, he's the face of a Dom Perignon 00:00:47.840 --> 00:00:50.060 champagne campaign. It's a pretty jarring image, 00:00:50.179 --> 00:00:51.719 isn't it? The guy who wrote I Want to Be Your 00:00:51.719 --> 00:00:54.200 Dog is now selling you luxury bubbles. It is. 00:00:54.299 --> 00:00:56.740 But when you dig into the stack of notes we have 00:00:56.740 --> 00:00:59.079 here, I mean, biographies, discographies, session 00:00:59.079 --> 00:01:01.740 notes, even academic journals, you start to realize 00:01:01.740 --> 00:01:04.400 it's not a contradiction. It's a survival strategy. 00:01:04.780 --> 00:01:06.980 That's it. That's the whole story. And that's 00:01:06.980 --> 00:01:09.140 our mission for this. Deep dives. We want to 00:01:09.140 --> 00:01:13.540 get past the cartoon version of Iggy Pop, the 00:01:13.540 --> 00:01:16.519 wild animal. The shirtless maniac. Right. And 00:01:16.519 --> 00:01:19.239 understand the brain behind the chest. We're 00:01:19.239 --> 00:01:21.599 going to look at his musical evolution, the absolute 00:01:21.599 --> 00:01:24.060 truth about his crucial friendship with David 00:01:24.060 --> 00:01:27.719 Bowie, and just the sheer biological miracle 00:01:27.719 --> 00:01:30.400 of his survival. And we also have to touch on 00:01:30.400 --> 00:01:33.549 the cost of that survival. Because, you know, 00:01:33.569 --> 00:01:35.489 you don't live a life like that without leaving 00:01:35.489 --> 00:01:37.829 some wreckage behind you. Absolutely. So let's 00:01:37.829 --> 00:01:40.569 get into it. And I think to understand the godfather 00:01:40.569 --> 00:01:42.230 of punk, you have to go right back to the beginning 00:01:42.230 --> 00:01:44.469 because the mythology, it says he crawled out 00:01:44.469 --> 00:01:47.290 of a sewer in Detroit, fully formed and furious. 00:01:47.549 --> 00:01:50.329 But the reality is he crawled out of a master 00:01:50.329 --> 00:01:52.810 bedroom in a trailer park in Ypsilanti, Michigan. 00:01:53.069 --> 00:01:55.109 And I want to pause on that because trailer park 00:01:55.109 --> 00:01:59.730 is usually shorthand in rock bios for like. Poverty 00:01:59.730 --> 00:02:01.790 and neglect. Right. You picture the broken down 00:02:01.790 --> 00:02:04.549 cars, the desperation, the wrong side of the 00:02:04.549 --> 00:02:06.909 tracks kind of thing. But for Jim Osterberg, 00:02:07.090 --> 00:02:09.610 and let's call him Jim for a bit, it was the 00:02:09.610 --> 00:02:12.550 complete opposite. He was born in Mustagin in 00:02:12.550 --> 00:02:15.430 47, but he grew up in the Coachville trailer 00:02:15.430 --> 00:02:18.629 court. His dad, James Sr., was an English teacher 00:02:18.629 --> 00:02:21.969 and a baseball coach. His mom, Luella, was this 00:02:21.969 --> 00:02:24.689 very proper woman of Danish and Norwegian descent. 00:02:25.189 --> 00:02:27.409 So it's a tiny space, but it's intellectually 00:02:27.409 --> 00:02:30.509 rich. And more than that, it was incredibly supportive. 00:02:30.750 --> 00:02:32.669 Oh, massively supportive. And there's this one 00:02:32.669 --> 00:02:34.770 story in the notes, the story about the drum 00:02:34.770 --> 00:02:36.889 kit, that I think explains almost everything 00:02:36.889 --> 00:02:39.669 about his later success. It totally flips the 00:02:39.669 --> 00:02:42.590 script on that whole neglected rock star cliche. 00:02:42.750 --> 00:02:45.129 It's the Rosebud moment of his life, honestly. 00:02:45.389 --> 00:02:47.990 So Jim gets interested in drums in the fifth 00:02:47.990 --> 00:02:49.830 grade. At first, you know, he's just banging 00:02:49.830 --> 00:02:52.050 on rubber pads he glued to a piece of plywood. 00:02:52.349 --> 00:02:54.509 As you do. But he gets good. He needs a real 00:02:54.509 --> 00:02:56.960 kit. Now, you've been in a trailer. You know 00:02:56.960 --> 00:02:59.659 space is at a premium. There is literally no 00:02:59.659 --> 00:03:01.939 room for a full drum set. Right. Most parents 00:03:01.939 --> 00:03:04.139 would say, hey, great hobby. Why don't you take 00:03:04.139 --> 00:03:06.800 up the harmonica or go play in the shed? Not 00:03:06.800 --> 00:03:09.800 James and Luella. They evacuated their own bedroom. 00:03:10.219 --> 00:03:12.879 They gave the master bedroom, the biggest room 00:03:12.879 --> 00:03:15.039 in the trailer, to their teenage son so he could 00:03:15.039 --> 00:03:17.960 set up his drums. They moved themselves into 00:03:17.960 --> 00:03:21.050 the tiny guest nook. That's... That's incredible. 00:03:21.229 --> 00:03:23.030 I mean, that's a massive signal to send to a 00:03:23.030 --> 00:03:25.610 kid. It's basically saying your creative noise 00:03:25.610 --> 00:03:27.729 is more important than our comfort. Your dream 00:03:27.729 --> 00:03:29.669 is the most important thing in this house. He 00:03:29.669 --> 00:03:31.689 knew it. He said in interviews that he went to 00:03:31.689 --> 00:03:35.530 school with kids whose dads were like Ford executives, 00:03:35.849 --> 00:03:37.949 you know, rich kids from the country club. But 00:03:37.949 --> 00:03:40.330 he said he felt richer than them. He had this 00:03:40.330 --> 00:03:43.909 arrogance because he knew his parents were all 00:03:43.909 --> 00:03:45.969 in on his potential in a way those other parents 00:03:45.969 --> 00:03:48.370 weren't. So you have this bedrock of unconditional 00:03:48.370 --> 00:03:51.539 support. Which, again, creates this weird dynamic 00:03:51.539 --> 00:03:53.879 in high school. Yeah. Because we expect the future 00:03:53.879 --> 00:03:56.199 godfather of punk to be a juvenile delinquent, 00:03:56.280 --> 00:03:58.639 right? Slashing tires, getting into fights. Not 00:03:58.639 --> 00:04:01.340 even close. In high school, Jim Osterberg was, 00:04:01.379 --> 00:04:05.240 well, he was kind of preppy. Yeah. He wore chinos 00:04:05.240 --> 00:04:08.039 and cashmere sweaters. He was on the student 00:04:08.039 --> 00:04:11.240 council. He hung out with the popular kids. He 00:04:11.240 --> 00:04:13.620 didn't smoke. He didn't drink. He didn't do drugs. 00:04:13.719 --> 00:04:15.639 It's almost disappointing. You want to hear that 00:04:15.639 --> 00:04:17.899 he was a rebel from day one? Well, the rebellion 00:04:17.899 --> 00:04:20.360 was internal. He was watching. He was observing. 00:04:20.560 --> 00:04:22.319 He was learning how to be a chameleon. And he 00:04:22.319 --> 00:04:24.899 started playing in bands, of course. He was a 00:04:24.899 --> 00:04:27.819 drummer. One of his first bands was a group called 00:04:27.819 --> 00:04:31.480 The Iguanas. And there it is. The origin of the 00:04:31.480 --> 00:04:34.079 name. Part of it. That's where Iggy comes from. 00:04:34.560 --> 00:04:37.079 But it wasn't a cool nickname at first. It wasn't 00:04:37.079 --> 00:04:39.860 like the boss or the king. No, it was actually 00:04:39.860 --> 00:04:42.639 meant to be mocking. When he later joined a blues 00:04:42.639 --> 00:04:45.480 band called the Prime Movers, the older, more 00:04:45.480 --> 00:04:48.300 serious blues guys would call him Iggy to remind 00:04:48.300 --> 00:04:50.720 him of his, you know, bubblegum pop past with 00:04:50.720 --> 00:04:53.160 the iguanas. It was meant to belittle him like, 00:04:53.240 --> 00:04:54.899 oh, here comes Iggy, the kid from the pop band. 00:04:55.079 --> 00:04:57.699 So he took an insult and made it his brand. And 00:04:57.699 --> 00:04:59.750 what about the pop part? That came a little later. 00:04:59.870 --> 00:05:02.370 He shaved off his eyebrows, which was probably 00:05:02.370 --> 00:05:04.870 the first real sign of the wild man to come. 00:05:04.970 --> 00:05:06.829 And apparently people started saying he looked 00:05:06.829 --> 00:05:09.009 like this local character in town named Jim Pop. 00:05:09.500 --> 00:05:11.920 So Iggy Pop. Yeah. It was just this accidental 00:05:11.920 --> 00:05:14.740 collision of a high school band and a guy with 00:05:14.740 --> 00:05:17.279 no eyebrows. It's amazing how these iconic names 00:05:17.279 --> 00:05:20.199 just sort of happen. OK, so we have the supportive 00:05:20.199 --> 00:05:22.879 parents, the cashmere sweaters, the accidental 00:05:22.879 --> 00:05:26.399 name. How do we get from that guy to the guy 00:05:26.399 --> 00:05:28.379 cutting his chest open with a broken bottle? 00:05:28.699 --> 00:05:31.220 There has to be a catalyst. There was a huge 00:05:31.220 --> 00:05:34.319 one. It's 1967. He's at the University of Michigan 00:05:34.319 --> 00:05:37.259 and he goes to see a concert. He goes to see. 00:05:37.959 --> 00:05:40.560 The Doors? Jim Morrison. The Lizard King himself. 00:05:41.180 --> 00:05:43.319 Now, you have to put yourself in that moment. 00:05:43.660 --> 00:05:46.500 In 1967, a rock performance was usually about 00:05:46.500 --> 00:05:48.459 being good, you know, playing the songs correctly, 00:05:48.680 --> 00:05:50.800 singing in tune, being professional. What do 00:05:50.800 --> 00:05:52.740 you mean entertaining? Morrison comes out on 00:05:52.740 --> 00:05:55.920 stage and he is a complete disaster. He's very 00:05:55.920 --> 00:05:58.199 likely tripping on acid. He's probably drunk. 00:05:58.439 --> 00:06:00.600 He's not singing the song so much as screaming 00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:03.779 bits of them. He's antagonizing the crowd, yelling 00:06:03.779 --> 00:06:06.060 obscenities. He's lurching around like he's about 00:06:06.060 --> 00:06:08.600 to be sick. I mean, most people in that audience 00:06:08.600 --> 00:06:10.560 probably wanted their money back. They thought 00:06:10.560 --> 00:06:12.269 they were seeing a train wreck. But Iggy saw 00:06:12.269 --> 00:06:14.730 something completely different. He had a genuine 00:06:14.730 --> 00:06:16.730 revelation. He's watching Morrison. He's thinking, 00:06:16.810 --> 00:06:19.670 this guy is treating the audience like dirt. 00:06:19.750 --> 00:06:22.250 He can't even perform properly tonight. And yet 00:06:22.250 --> 00:06:25.230 he has the number one record in the country. 00:06:25.329 --> 00:06:27.449 It was permission. It was total permission. It 00:06:27.449 --> 00:06:29.769 was the realization that a performance didn't 00:06:29.769 --> 00:06:31.970 have to be about technical perfection or pleasing 00:06:31.970 --> 00:06:34.550 people. It could be about confrontation. It could 00:06:34.550 --> 00:06:37.290 be about theater. It could be about danger. And 00:06:37.290 --> 00:06:39.370 that right there, that's the seed that grows 00:06:39.370 --> 00:06:42.300 into the Stooges. So let's talk about the Stooges, 00:06:42.360 --> 00:06:44.819 because musically, this is where we need to define 00:06:44.819 --> 00:06:47.620 some terms. We throw the word punk around a lot, 00:06:47.720 --> 00:06:50.459 but the Stooges are what we call proto -punk. 00:06:50.680 --> 00:06:52.980 What does that actually mean in terms of the 00:06:52.980 --> 00:06:55.019 sound? That's a great question. So again, think 00:06:55.019 --> 00:06:57.259 about what was happening in the late 60s. You 00:06:57.259 --> 00:06:59.439 had the Summer of Love. You had these really 00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:02.459 complex psychedelic arrangements. The Beatles 00:07:02.459 --> 00:07:05.139 were doing Screek Pepper. It was very flowery, 00:07:05.139 --> 00:07:08.759 very produced, very clever music. Right. Lots 00:07:08.759 --> 00:07:11.050 of layers. Protopunk, and especially what the 00:07:11.050 --> 00:07:13.850 Stooges were doing, was a violent rejection of 00:07:13.850 --> 00:07:16.730 all of that complexity. It was a deliberate return 00:07:16.730 --> 00:07:18.949 to the primitive. Three chords and the truth. 00:07:19.860 --> 00:07:21.920 Or maybe just the three chords. Or maybe just 00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:24.399 one chord played over and over again with a really 00:07:24.399 --> 00:07:27.540 bad attitude. It was raw. It was hypnotic. If 00:07:27.540 --> 00:07:29.480 you listen to a song like I Want to Be Your Dog, 00:07:29.699 --> 00:07:33.279 it's just this relentless, grinding, simple riff. 00:07:33.379 --> 00:07:35.740 It doesn't sound happy. It sounds like boredom 00:07:35.740 --> 00:07:38.680 and aggression and raw electricity all mixed 00:07:38.680 --> 00:07:40.939 together. And the lineup was crucial to that 00:07:40.939 --> 00:07:43.579 sound. You had Iggy on vocals, Dave Alexander 00:07:43.579 --> 00:07:45.939 on bass, and then the Ashton Brothers, Ron on 00:07:45.939 --> 00:07:48.769 guitar and Scott on drums. And the hiring policy 00:07:48.769 --> 00:07:50.850 for Ron Ashton tells you everything you need 00:07:50.850 --> 00:07:53.310 to know about the band's vibe. Iggy didn't pick 00:07:53.310 --> 00:07:55.990 Ron because he was a virtuoso guitarist. He said 00:07:55.990 --> 00:07:57.709 he picked him because he thought Ron looked ill 00:07:57.709 --> 00:07:59.790 and dirty. He was casting a movie, basically. 00:08:00.149 --> 00:08:01.970 You look like you need a shower and possibly 00:08:01.970 --> 00:08:04.750 a doctor. You're in. That's exactly it. He was 00:08:04.750 --> 00:08:07.230 building a gang, not an orchestra. And even the 00:08:07.230 --> 00:08:09.889 name The Stooges was this act of anti -cool. 00:08:10.439 --> 00:08:13.079 I mean, nobody in 1968 thought the Three Stooges 00:08:13.079 --> 00:08:15.740 were cool. No, they were old -timey comedians. 00:08:15.860 --> 00:08:17.680 It's like naming your band the Marx Brothers 00:08:17.680 --> 00:08:20.100 or something. Exactly. And the story behind it 00:08:20.100 --> 00:08:23.279 is fantastic. Ron Asheton actually tracked down 00:08:23.279 --> 00:08:25.740 Moe Howard from the actual Three Stooges and 00:08:25.740 --> 00:08:28.420 called him on the phone to ask for permission 00:08:28.420 --> 00:08:31.019 to use the name. I love this. He called a real 00:08:31.019 --> 00:08:33.539 Three Stooges. He did. And Moe Howard, who was 00:08:33.539 --> 00:08:35.740 probably just completely confused as to why some 00:08:35.740 --> 00:08:38.600 long -haired kid from a rock band was calling 00:08:38.600 --> 00:08:40.379 him, basically said, I don't care what you call 00:08:40.379 --> 00:08:42.519 yourselves as long as you're not three stooges. 00:08:42.519 --> 00:08:45.879 And then he just hung up. So green light from 00:08:45.879 --> 00:08:48.240 Mo. They have the name. They have the look. They 00:08:48.240 --> 00:08:51.850 have the sound. What they didn't have. Oh, absolutely 00:08:51.850 --> 00:08:54.330 not. Their first two albums, the self -titled 00:08:54.330 --> 00:08:56.909 The Stooges, which was produced by John Cale 00:08:56.909 --> 00:08:58.850 from The Velvet Underground, by the way. Another 00:08:58.850 --> 00:09:01.070 proto -punk legend. Right. So that album and 00:09:01.070 --> 00:09:03.669 their second one, Funhouse, are now considered 00:09:03.669 --> 00:09:06.129 sacred texts. They're on every greatest albums 00:09:06.129 --> 00:09:08.490 of all time list. But at the time, they were 00:09:08.490 --> 00:09:11.629 commercial poison. Nobody got it. The world was 00:09:11.629 --> 00:09:13.970 not ready for a guy smearing peanut butter all 00:09:13.970 --> 00:09:18.009 over his chest and diving into the crowd. We 00:09:18.009 --> 00:09:19.750 almost take it for granted now. You go to a festival, 00:09:19.850 --> 00:09:23.309 someone is crowd surfing. But Iggy is widely 00:09:23.309 --> 00:09:25.889 credited with inventing it. He was one of the 00:09:25.889 --> 00:09:27.350 very first. And he did it differently. He was 00:09:27.350 --> 00:09:30.649 breaking the fourth wall physically. Before Iggy, 00:09:30.750 --> 00:09:33.070 the stage was this pedestal. You know, the rock 00:09:33.070 --> 00:09:35.230 god stood up there and the audience stood down 00:09:35.230 --> 00:09:37.409 there and worshipped. And Iggy said, no, I'm 00:09:37.409 --> 00:09:39.330 coming out there to you. But it wasn't a hug. 00:09:39.389 --> 00:09:41.110 It wasn't a we're all in this together thing. 00:09:41.169 --> 00:09:43.269 It was an assault. He would just hurl himself 00:09:43.269 --> 00:09:45.830 at people. He would cut himself with glass. He 00:09:45.830 --> 00:09:48.210 would expose himself. He would challenge the 00:09:48.210 --> 00:09:50.470 audience. It was performance art. It was dangerous. 00:09:50.649 --> 00:09:53.409 It was. It was asking the question, how much 00:09:53.409 --> 00:09:56.269 of this can you handle? But you can only sustain 00:09:56.269 --> 00:09:58.450 that level of intensity and self -destruction 00:09:58.450 --> 00:10:02.169 for so long. The band imploded. The drugs took 00:10:02.169 --> 00:10:05.690 over. Specifically, heroin really took hold of 00:10:05.690 --> 00:10:08.240 Iggy. And this brings us to the low point. it's 00:10:08.240 --> 00:10:11.559 the early 70s the stooges are done iggy's broke 00:10:11.559 --> 00:10:14.500 he's addicted he's basically sleeping on couches 00:10:14.500 --> 00:10:16.740 he's essentially washed up before he's even 25 00:10:16.740 --> 00:10:19.580 years old and this is really where the story 00:10:19.580 --> 00:10:21.279 should have ended he should have been a footnote 00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:23.519 you know oh yeah that crazy guy from that band 00:10:23.519 --> 00:10:26.080 that made a couple of weird records but then 00:10:26.700 --> 00:10:29.320 A certain star man enters the picture. David 00:10:29.320 --> 00:10:31.519 Bowie. David Bowie. And the relationship between 00:10:31.519 --> 00:10:34.340 Bowie and Iggy Pop is one of the most fascinating 00:10:34.340 --> 00:10:37.539 and I think important dynamics in all of music 00:10:37.539 --> 00:10:39.700 history. I've always viewed it as this really 00:10:39.700 --> 00:10:43.600 symbiotic thing. Like Bowie needed Iggy's raw, 00:10:43.759 --> 00:10:47.279 authentic danger to ground himself. And Iggy 00:10:47.279 --> 00:10:49.299 desperately needed Bowie's discipline and his 00:10:49.299 --> 00:10:52.120 production genius just to survive. That's a perfect 00:10:52.120 --> 00:10:54.299 way to put it. They met at Max's Kansas City 00:10:54.299 --> 00:10:57.419 in New York in 1971. Bowie was on the rise. He 00:10:57.419 --> 00:11:00.059 was this calculated, polished, brilliant artist. 00:11:00.299 --> 00:11:04.500 And he saw Iggy as this raw, untapped resource, 00:11:04.940 --> 00:11:07.240 a force of nature that needed to be harnessed. 00:11:07.399 --> 00:11:09.799 So he decides to save him? Pretty much. He gets 00:11:09.799 --> 00:11:11.860 Iggy a record deal, takes him to England, and 00:11:11.860 --> 00:11:15.820 produces the album Raw Power in 1973. They even 00:11:15.820 --> 00:11:18.429 reformed the Stooges for it. But even that wasn't 00:11:18.429 --> 00:11:20.649 enough to keep the demons away. After the album, 00:11:20.789 --> 00:11:23.070 Iggy crashed again, harder than ever. And this 00:11:23.070 --> 00:11:24.850 is when he checks himself into a mental institution. 00:11:25.269 --> 00:11:28.850 Yeah. The UCLA Neuropsychiatric Institute. He 00:11:28.850 --> 00:11:30.909 was trying to save his own brain. He knew he 00:11:30.909 --> 00:11:33.549 was losing it. And the notes mention something 00:11:33.549 --> 00:11:36.149 really poignant here. While he was in there, 00:11:36.309 --> 00:11:39.070 visitors were very, very scarce. The whole cool 00:11:39.070 --> 00:11:41.350 rock and roll crowd, they weren't exactly lining 00:11:41.350 --> 00:11:43.649 up to visit the guy in the psych ward. But Bowie 00:11:43.649 --> 00:11:46.879 did. Bowie came. And not only did he visit, but 00:11:46.879 --> 00:11:50.340 in 1976, he basically busted him out and took 00:11:50.340 --> 00:11:53.200 Iggy on his station to station tour. Not as an 00:11:53.200 --> 00:11:56.659 opening act, really, just as a companion to keep 00:11:56.659 --> 00:11:58.799 an eye on him, to get him out of the L .A. drug 00:11:58.799 --> 00:12:00.940 scene. Which leads them to move to West Berlin. 00:12:01.289 --> 00:12:03.490 The famous Berlin era. This whole period is so 00:12:03.490 --> 00:12:05.669 mythologized. We imagine them in like black leather 00:12:05.669 --> 00:12:08.269 coats standing by the Berlin Wall looking gloomy 00:12:08.269 --> 00:12:10.210 and artistic while synthesizing the future of 00:12:10.210 --> 00:12:12.470 music. And I mean, they were doing that. But 00:12:12.470 --> 00:12:15.250 the domestic reality of it is so much funnier 00:12:15.250 --> 00:12:17.389 and more human. Yeah. They moved to West Berlin 00:12:17.389 --> 00:12:19.610 specifically to get clean. They were trying to 00:12:19.610 --> 00:12:21.590 escape the drug dealers of L .A. and London. 00:12:21.690 --> 00:12:23.750 So they got an apartment together. And Iggy has 00:12:23.750 --> 00:12:25.789 gone on record saying that the highlight of their 00:12:25.789 --> 00:12:28.230 week, their big wild night out was Thursday. 00:12:28.450 --> 00:12:30.909 OK. What happened on Thursday? I would sit on 00:12:30.909 --> 00:12:33.850 the sofa, maybe make some dinner and watch Starsky 00:12:33.850 --> 00:12:36.029 and Hutch on German television. You're kidding. 00:12:36.110 --> 00:12:39.330 David Bowie and Iggy Pop just sitting there watching 00:12:39.330 --> 00:12:41.870 a cop show. It's incredible, isn't it? It humanizes 00:12:41.870 --> 00:12:44.809 them completely. But creatively, this period 00:12:44.809 --> 00:12:48.009 of sort of quiet domesticity worked. It was unbelievably 00:12:48.009 --> 00:12:52.250 productive. In 1977 alone, they produced two 00:12:52.250 --> 00:12:54.730 of Iggy's greatest solo albums back to back, 00:12:54.990 --> 00:12:58.049 The Idiot and Lester Life. OK, can we talk about 00:12:58.049 --> 00:13:00.210 the sound of The Idiot? Because it is. so, so 00:13:00.210 --> 00:13:02.370 different from the Stooges. It's not punk rock. 00:13:02.629 --> 00:13:05.250 No, it's the sound of Bowie's influence crashing 00:13:05.250 --> 00:13:08.809 head -on with Iggy's raw energy. It's heavy. 00:13:08.929 --> 00:13:11.450 It's industrial. It's almost robotic in places. 00:13:11.769 --> 00:13:14.070 You listen to a track like Night Clubbing with 00:13:14.070 --> 00:13:16.289 that lurching electronic drum beat. It's almost 00:13:16.289 --> 00:13:18.990 gothic. It's dark and unsettling. And Lust for 00:13:18.990 --> 00:13:21.149 Life comes out the same year, and it's so much 00:13:21.149 --> 00:13:22.929 brighter. It's more of a rock and roll record. 00:13:23.110 --> 00:13:25.129 It is. They co -wrote all these classic songs 00:13:25.129 --> 00:13:27.649 together. The Passenger, Lust for Life, China 00:13:27.649 --> 00:13:29.879 Girl Tonight, Sister... midnight. It was this 00:13:29.879 --> 00:13:32.899 incredible burst of creativity. But here's the 00:13:32.899 --> 00:13:34.799 part of the friendship story that I think really 00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:37.860 matters. It's the financial part. Yes, this is 00:13:37.860 --> 00:13:42.159 crucial. So we get to the early 80s and Iggy 00:13:42.159 --> 00:13:44.659 is still struggling. The albums were critically 00:13:44.659 --> 00:13:47.159 acclaimed, but the money just wasn't there. He 00:13:47.159 --> 00:13:50.659 was still basically broke. Meanwhile. Bowie is 00:13:50.659 --> 00:13:53.279 about to record Let's Dance, an album that was 00:13:53.279 --> 00:13:55.840 specifically designed to be a massive global 00:13:55.840 --> 00:13:58.460 commercial hit. And it was. It was absolutely 00:13:58.460 --> 00:14:01.320 huge. So Bowie makes a choice. He decides to 00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:03.840 cover China Girl on that album, a song he co 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:05.919 -wrote with Iggy. He didn't have to do that. 00:14:05.960 --> 00:14:07.519 He could have written a brand new song by himself. 00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:10.399 But he did it specifically so that the songwriting 00:14:10.399 --> 00:14:13.840 royalties, which would be enormous, would go 00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:15.799 to Iggy. That's not just a favor. That's a pension 00:14:15.799 --> 00:14:17.919 plan. It was a lifeline. And then he did it again 00:14:17.919 --> 00:14:20.970 on his next album, Tonight. Bowie basically ensured 00:14:20.970 --> 00:14:23.409 that Iggy Pop would never starve again. He set 00:14:23.409 --> 00:14:25.809 him up for life. That's real friendship. It really 00:14:25.809 --> 00:14:29.429 is. So, OK, Iggy is finally financially secure. 00:14:29.950 --> 00:14:33.090 But the 80s as a decade were, I don't know, there 00:14:33.090 --> 00:14:35.330 were a weird time for him. I feel like every 00:14:35.330 --> 00:14:37.730 original punk rocker had a bit of a midlife crisis 00:14:37.730 --> 00:14:39.929 in the 80s, trying to figure out where they fit 00:14:39.929 --> 00:14:42.370 in with all the synthesizers and big hair. It 00:14:42.370 --> 00:14:44.169 was a total roller coaster. He released these 00:14:44.169 --> 00:14:46.210 albums like Soldier and Party that were, you 00:14:46.210 --> 00:14:47.809 know, kind of hit or miss. He was trying to fit 00:14:47.809 --> 00:14:50.629 into the new wave sound. But that self -destructive 00:14:50.629 --> 00:14:53.990 impulse, it hadn't fully left the building. There's 00:14:53.990 --> 00:14:56.409 a famous incident in 1981 at a show where he 00:14:56.409 --> 00:14:58.490 just smashes a microphone into his own face. 00:14:58.710 --> 00:15:01.590 Accidentally. No, completely on purpose. In the 00:15:01.590 --> 00:15:03.490 heat of the performance, he snapped a front tooth 00:15:03.490 --> 00:15:05.879 right off at the root. Boom, gone. It was like 00:15:05.879 --> 00:15:07.600 he needed to feel something real in the middle 00:15:07.600 --> 00:15:10.620 of all that 80s gloss. Wow. But he also found 00:15:10.620 --> 00:15:12.899 some real commercial success on his own terms. 00:15:12.980 --> 00:15:15.980 In 1986, he releases the album Blah Blah Blah, 00:15:15.980 --> 00:15:18.759 again produced by Bowie, and it had the song 00:15:18.759 --> 00:15:22.600 Real Wild Child, Wild One. Which sounds very 00:15:22.600 --> 00:15:24.759 80s. You can hear the production. Lots of reverb. 00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:27.799 Very produced. But it was a legitimate hit in 00:15:27.799 --> 00:15:30.820 the UK and Australia. And then in 1990, he has 00:15:30.820 --> 00:15:34.659 his only U .S. top 40 hit, The Duet Candy with 00:15:34.659 --> 00:15:36.899 Kate Pearson from the B -52s. It's just such 00:15:36.899 --> 00:15:38.820 a great song. It's a sweet pop song. It proved 00:15:38.820 --> 00:15:41.240 he could actually sing, you know, not just scream 00:15:41.240 --> 00:15:44.340 and snarl. Exactly. But the real cultural reset. 00:15:44.809 --> 00:15:47.350 The moment Iggy became truly cool again for a 00:15:47.350 --> 00:15:50.429 whole new generation was 1996. Trainspotting. 00:15:50.429 --> 00:15:53.490 Danny Boyle's movie. That opening scene, you 00:15:53.490 --> 00:15:56.210 see Ewan McGregor just running full tilt from 00:15:56.210 --> 00:15:58.970 the cops, the freeze frame, and then that iconic 00:15:58.970 --> 00:16:01.110 drumbeat kicks in. Thump, thump, thump, thump. 00:16:01.210 --> 00:16:04.250 Lust for life. And suddenly Iggy Pop wasn't this 00:16:04.250 --> 00:16:06.309 relic from the 70s anymore. He was the sound 00:16:06.309 --> 00:16:08.629 of adrenaline. He was the sound of youthful rebellion 00:16:08.629 --> 00:16:11.590 for the entire Britpop generation. It just opened 00:16:11.590 --> 00:16:13.309 the door for everything that came after. And 00:16:13.309 --> 00:16:15.549 he walked right through that door and into Hollywood. 00:16:15.769 --> 00:16:18.169 Yeah, he kind of did. He became this really interesting 00:16:18.169 --> 00:16:20.309 character actor. He showed up in John Waters' 00:16:20.450 --> 00:16:23.070 Cry Baby with Johnny Depp in Jim Jarmusch's Dead 00:16:23.070 --> 00:16:26.149 Man the Crow, City of Angels. He was just popping 00:16:26.149 --> 00:16:28.830 up in these cool indie movies. But my absolute 00:16:28.830 --> 00:16:31.769 favorite fun fact from the notes has to be... 00:16:31.789 --> 00:16:34.029 his appearance on Star Trek Deep Space Nine. 00:16:34.269 --> 00:16:36.710 Iggy Pop in space. I mean, you can't make this 00:16:36.710 --> 00:16:39.629 stuff up. It was 1998. He played a Vorda, which 00:16:39.629 --> 00:16:42.470 is this alien race named Yelgrun in an episode 00:16:42.470 --> 00:16:45.210 called The Magnificent Ferengi. And he's in the 00:16:45.210 --> 00:16:47.669 full prosthetics, the spacesuit, the whole deal. 00:16:47.970 --> 00:16:50.009 And he played it completely straight. It just 00:16:50.009 --> 00:16:52.269 shows you he wasn't trapped by his own persona. 00:16:52.450 --> 00:16:54.889 He was willing to be a working actor and just, 00:16:54.970 --> 00:16:57.590 you know, do the job. I want to pivot now to 00:16:57.590 --> 00:16:59.029 something that I think is the most surprising 00:16:59.029 --> 00:17:01.590 part of this whole deep dive. We see the body, 00:17:01.649 --> 00:17:04.349 right? We see the veins, the sweat, the leather 00:17:04.349 --> 00:17:07.289 skin. And we assume he's just pure instinct, 00:17:07.490 --> 00:17:10.730 a primal force. Right. All -eyed, no ego. But 00:17:10.730 --> 00:17:13.440 Iggy Pop is a serious intellectual. This is the 00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:15.559 part that people always miss. Jim Osterberg is 00:17:15.559 --> 00:17:17.779 incredibly well -read. And I don't mean he reads, 00:17:17.779 --> 00:17:20.000 you know, rock biographies. I mean, he reads 00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:23.079 the classics. The notes mention Edward Gibbon's 00:17:23.079 --> 00:17:26.259 The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. That's 00:17:26.259 --> 00:17:28.519 not light reading. He doesn't just read it. He 00:17:28.519 --> 00:17:32.039 analyzes it and writes about it. In 1995, he 00:17:32.039 --> 00:17:34.420 actually published an article in a proper academic 00:17:34.420 --> 00:17:37.059 journal called Classics Ireland. Wait, for real? 00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:39.759 A peer -reviewed journal? Yes. The article was 00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:42.849 titled Caesar Lives. and in it he wrote about 00:17:42.849 --> 00:17:45.109 reading gibbon's masterpiece while he was on 00:17:45.109 --> 00:17:47.750 tour in the american south and he draws these 00:17:47.750 --> 00:17:50.630 incredible brilliant parallels between the bread 00:17:50.630 --> 00:17:52.930 and circuses of the roman empire and the united 00:17:52.930 --> 00:17:56.190 states in the 20th century he compared the brutality 00:17:56.190 --> 00:17:59.230 of the roman polyseum to the mosh pits at his 00:17:59.230 --> 00:18:02.130 own shows that's profound so he sees the mosh 00:18:02.130 --> 00:18:05.190 pit not just as chaos but as a modern form of 00:18:05.190 --> 00:18:08.289 a very ancient ritual precisely He argues that 00:18:08.289 --> 00:18:10.210 humanity hasn't really changed that much. We've 00:18:10.210 --> 00:18:11.970 just changed the costumes and the soundtrack. 00:18:12.269 --> 00:18:15.609 He sees himself as part of this long, unbroken 00:18:15.609 --> 00:18:18.369 lineage of public spectacle and decline. It's 00:18:18.369 --> 00:18:20.369 really brilliant stuff. And you can hear that 00:18:20.369 --> 00:18:23.130 eclectic taste on his radio show, too. Absolutely. 00:18:23.250 --> 00:18:26.329 Iggy Confidential on BBC Six Music. If you're 00:18:26.329 --> 00:18:28.289 listening and you haven't heard it. You have 00:18:28.289 --> 00:18:31.130 to check it out. He'll play free jazz, then some 00:18:31.130 --> 00:18:34.589 old French chanson, then some extreme Norwegian 00:18:34.589 --> 00:18:37.990 black metal. He has the ears of a musicologist. 00:18:38.289 --> 00:18:41.529 He's always championing new young bands. He's 00:18:41.529 --> 00:18:44.029 not some old man yelling at clouds. He's an old 00:18:44.029 --> 00:18:46.269 man who is actively listening to everything. 00:18:46.609 --> 00:18:48.829 And he's done voice acting as well, which requires 00:18:48.829 --> 00:18:50.589 a totally different kind of discipline. Yeah, 00:18:50.630 --> 00:18:52.849 he was a voice in the Rugrats movie, he's been 00:18:52.849 --> 00:18:55.210 on American Dad, and he voiced the character 00:18:55.210 --> 00:19:01.210 of the uncle in the English language. So speaking 00:19:01.210 --> 00:19:03.710 of the old man aspect, we have to talk about 00:19:03.710 --> 00:19:06.529 the physical reality of him. He's famous for 00:19:06.529 --> 00:19:08.569 performing shirtless. We've literally watched 00:19:08.569 --> 00:19:11.970 his body age in public for 50 years. But there's 00:19:11.970 --> 00:19:14.690 a medical reason behind the way he moves. Scoliosis. 00:19:14.769 --> 00:19:17.319 I had no idea about this. Yeah. He has a significant 00:19:17.319 --> 00:19:19.519 curvature of the spine, and as a result, one 00:19:19.519 --> 00:19:21.400 of his legs is about an inch and a half shorter 00:19:21.400 --> 00:19:23.059 than the other one. So you know that signature 00:19:23.059 --> 00:19:25.460 walk of his, that sort of lurching, twisting, 00:19:25.660 --> 00:19:27.859 hip -thrusting thing he does? Yeah, it looks 00:19:27.859 --> 00:19:30.539 like a panther stalking something. It's actually 00:19:30.539 --> 00:19:33.619 him compensating for his spine. He's built his 00:19:33.619 --> 00:19:36.240 entire physical vocabulary on stage around a 00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:38.660 disability. He turned a medical condition into 00:19:38.660 --> 00:19:41.819 a dance move. It explains why he's always contorted 00:19:41.819 --> 00:19:44.460 and twisted on stage. He's working with his body's 00:19:44.460 --> 00:19:47.349 limitations and pain. That adds such a layer 00:19:47.349 --> 00:19:50.390 of grit to the whole performance. But look, we 00:19:50.390 --> 00:19:52.710 can't do a proper deep dive without looking at 00:19:52.710 --> 00:19:54.869 the dark side. We've talked about the drugs, 00:19:54.970 --> 00:19:57.250 but there are other controversies in his personal 00:19:57.250 --> 00:19:59.730 life that we need to address if we're being honest 00:19:59.730 --> 00:20:02.549 about the full biography. We do. You can't sanitize 00:20:02.549 --> 00:20:05.069 the 70s rock scene, and Iggy was right in the 00:20:05.069 --> 00:20:07.150 middle of it. The most significant controversy, 00:20:07.470 --> 00:20:09.309 and one that's been reexamined a lot recently, 00:20:09.609 --> 00:20:12.509 involves a woman named Sable Starr. She was a 00:20:12.509 --> 00:20:15.130 very prominent figure in the L .A. groupie scene 00:20:15.130 --> 00:20:18.029 of that era. She was. And the historical record, 00:20:18.230 --> 00:20:20.890 including his own evisions, shows that when Iggy 00:20:20.890 --> 00:20:23.630 was 23 years old, he began a sexual relationship 00:20:23.630 --> 00:20:26.390 with her. She was 13 years old. And just seeing 00:20:26.390 --> 00:20:29.119 those numbers out loud like that. It's stark. 00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:32.599 And in the context of the 1970s baby groupie 00:20:32.599 --> 00:20:35.980 culture, it was unfortunately common and often 00:20:35.980 --> 00:20:38.220 romanticized or overlooked by the music press 00:20:38.220 --> 00:20:41.119 at the time. But looking back on it now, especially 00:20:41.119 --> 00:20:44.200 through the lens of the hashtag MeToo era, it's 00:20:44.200 --> 00:20:46.319 viewed very, very differently. And there's a 00:20:46.319 --> 00:20:47.960 recent documentary that deals with this, right? 00:20:48.019 --> 00:20:50.769 Yes, a documentary called Look Away. which is 00:20:50.769 --> 00:20:53.230 ironically named after an Iggy Pop song that's 00:20:53.230 --> 00:20:55.210 about her. And it frames these relationships 00:20:55.210 --> 00:20:58.670 not as rock and roll excess, but as what they 00:20:58.670 --> 00:21:01.730 were, statutory rape. And it's important for 00:21:01.730 --> 00:21:03.950 us as we look at the whole legacy to acknowledge 00:21:03.950 --> 00:21:06.309 that that is part of the history. It's the complexity 00:21:06.309 --> 00:21:08.289 of these figures. And there have been other more 00:21:08.289 --> 00:21:11.309 recent stumbles, too. Right. In 2007, during 00:21:11.309 --> 00:21:13.230 a BBC interview at the Glastonbury Festival, 00:21:13.509 --> 00:21:16.309 he used a racist slur pocky shop to describe 00:21:16.309 --> 00:21:18.769 a convenience store. I remember that making headlines 00:21:18.769 --> 00:21:20.809 at the time. Oh, yeah. It caused a big stir. 00:21:21.349 --> 00:21:24.230 He claimed he wasn't aware of the negative connotation, 00:21:24.230 --> 00:21:26.950 that it was just some slang he'd heard, but it 00:21:26.950 --> 00:21:29.069 led to a lot of complaints and he had to issue 00:21:29.069 --> 00:21:32.450 a formal apology. It's a reminder that even a 00:21:32.450 --> 00:21:35.369 cultural icon isn't immune to ignorance or making 00:21:35.369 --> 00:21:38.130 really serious mistakes. So we have the genius, 00:21:38.269 --> 00:21:40.910 the survivor, the intellectual, and the deeply 00:21:40.910 --> 00:21:44.430 flawed human being, all wrapped up in that leathery 00:21:44.430 --> 00:21:47.789 skin. Let's bring it up to the present day, the 00:21:47.789 --> 00:21:50.720 elder statesman era. The Stooges finally got 00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:54.019 their due. They did. They reunited in 2003 with 00:21:54.019 --> 00:21:57.160 the surviving Ashton brothers. And then in 2010, 00:21:57.319 --> 00:21:59.420 they were finally inducted into the Rock and 00:21:59.420 --> 00:22:01.640 Roll Hall of Fame. How did he take it? I feel 00:22:01.640 --> 00:22:03.359 like the classic punk rock thing to do would 00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:05.660 be to spit on the award or not show up. You would 00:22:05.660 --> 00:22:07.920 think so. But by his own account, he cried. He 00:22:07.920 --> 00:22:10.079 apparently cried for two hours straight when 00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:11.859 he heard the news. Wow. Why do you think he had 00:22:11.859 --> 00:22:14.460 such an emotional reaction? Because for 40 years, 00:22:14.519 --> 00:22:16.859 he was the outsider. He was the commercial failure. 00:22:16.980 --> 00:22:18.740 He was the guy the establishment looked down 00:22:18.740 --> 00:22:21.740 on. And to finally be recognized by that same 00:22:21.740 --> 00:22:23.720 establishment, I think it validated the entire 00:22:23.720 --> 00:22:26.140 struggle. It meant his parents' sacrifice of 00:22:26.140 --> 00:22:28.180 giving him their bedroom all those years ago. 00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:31.019 It wasn't for nothing. But the band didn't last 00:22:31.019 --> 00:22:34.680 long after that induction. No, sadly. Ron Ashton 00:22:34.680 --> 00:22:37.839 passed away in 2009, and his brother Scott died 00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:41.410 in 2014. Iggy is really the last stooge standing 00:22:41.410 --> 00:22:44.789 now. But he didn't stop. In 2016, he released 00:22:44.789 --> 00:22:47.220 the album Post -Pop Depression. And I would argue 00:22:47.220 --> 00:22:50.000 this is his best, most vital work since the Berlin 00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:52.680 era with Bowie. I completely agree. He collaborated 00:22:52.680 --> 00:22:54.700 with Josh Holm from Queens of the Stone Age. 00:22:54.839 --> 00:22:57.259 And the album is this incredible meditation on 00:22:57.259 --> 00:22:59.980 mortality and legacy. He knew his friends were 00:22:59.980 --> 00:23:02.000 dying. Bowie passed away just before the album 00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:03.880 came out. The album sounds like a man settling 00:23:03.880 --> 00:23:06.259 his affairs, but in the most powerful way. And 00:23:06.259 --> 00:23:08.799 it became his highest charting album ever in 00:23:08.799 --> 00:23:10.619 the U .S. And he's still going. You release free 00:23:10.619 --> 00:23:14.420 in 2019. Every loser in 2023. But he did finally 00:23:14.420 --> 00:23:17.240 retire one thing. The stage diving. The insurance 00:23:17.240 --> 00:23:19.299 premiums must have finally gotten too high. I 00:23:19.299 --> 00:23:21.059 think his body's premiums got too high. He finally 00:23:21.059 --> 00:23:24.259 admitted around 2022 or 2023 that he was just 00:23:24.259 --> 00:23:27.099 too rickety to do it anymore. He said he didn't 00:23:27.099 --> 00:23:29.079 want to rely on the audience to catch him, which 00:23:29.079 --> 00:23:31.559 is probably a wise medical decision for a man 00:23:31.559 --> 00:23:33.720 in his late 70s. But he's not exactly knitting 00:23:33.720 --> 00:23:36.539 on the front porch. We mentioned the 2025 and 00:23:36.539 --> 00:23:39.970 2026 timeline at the start of this. He's as active 00:23:39.970 --> 00:23:43.410 as ever. He is everywhere. In 2025, his song 00:23:43.410 --> 00:23:46.109 Punk Rocker, which was a collaboration he did 00:23:46.109 --> 00:23:48.170 with the Teddy Bears, was featured prominently 00:23:48.170 --> 00:23:50.650 in the new Superman movie. Superman and Iggy 00:23:50.650 --> 00:23:53.069 Pop. That is another combination I did not see 00:23:53.069 --> 00:23:55.339 coming. And as we said, he headlined the CBGB 00:23:55.339 --> 00:23:58.359 Festival in Brooklyn in September of 2025. He 00:23:58.359 --> 00:24:00.880 is closing in on 80 years old and he's still 00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:03.400 headlining punk festivals named after the club 00:24:03.400 --> 00:24:05.900 where it all started. And the champagne. We have 00:24:05.900 --> 00:24:08.079 to come back to the champagne. The Dom Perignon 00:24:08.079 --> 00:24:11.779 campaign, May 2025. It's the ultimate paradox. 00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:14.900 So here is the final provocative question for 00:24:14.900 --> 00:24:18.079 you and for you listening. Does doing a champagne 00:24:18.079 --> 00:24:21.779 ad undo the entire punk rock legacy? Is it selling 00:24:21.779 --> 00:24:25.130 out? I've thought about this a lot. And my answer 00:24:25.130 --> 00:24:27.529 is no, I don't think it's selling out. I actually 00:24:27.529 --> 00:24:30.269 think it's winning. How so? Explain that. Look, 00:24:30.410 --> 00:24:33.309 Iggy Pop's central goal from the very beginning 00:24:33.309 --> 00:24:35.839 was freedom. He wanted to be free of convention, 00:24:36.099 --> 00:24:39.440 free of poverty, free of expectations. He survived 00:24:39.440 --> 00:24:42.000 the heroin addiction that killed so many of his 00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:45.319 peers. He survived the years of poverty. He survived 00:24:45.319 --> 00:24:47.940 the critics who called his music unlistenable 00:24:47.940 --> 00:24:51.339 garbage. He has outlived the entire system that 00:24:51.339 --> 00:24:54.279 tried to crush him. So now if he wants to sit 00:24:54.279 --> 00:24:57.119 in a beautiful house, sip the most expensive 00:24:57.119 --> 00:24:59.779 champagne in the world and get paid a... Fortune 00:24:59.779 --> 00:25:03.579 to do it all while still making exactly the uncompromising 00:25:03.579 --> 00:25:06.519 music he wants to make. That's not selling out. 00:25:06.559 --> 00:25:08.900 That's the ultimate punk rock move. He beat the 00:25:08.900 --> 00:25:11.000 house. He didn't just survive the game. He broke 00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:13.279 the bank and is drinking their booze. Exactly. 00:25:13.359 --> 00:25:15.960 He is 78 years old. He has earned the bubble. 00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:18.339 That is a fantastic perspective. He's the last 00:25:18.339 --> 00:25:20.539 of the Mohicans and he's enjoying the spoils 00:25:20.539 --> 00:25:22.400 of war. And probably reading Roman history while 00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:24.420 he does it. Well, on that note, I think I am 00:25:24.420 --> 00:25:26.019 going to go listen to The Idiot again tonight. 00:25:26.599 --> 00:25:29.599 But this time. I'm going to be listening for 00:25:29.599 --> 00:25:32.519 the scoliosis, for the sorrow, and for the sound 00:25:32.519 --> 00:25:34.900 of survival. Do it. And really listen to the 00:25:34.900 --> 00:25:37.380 production on nightclubbing. It is just, it's 00:25:37.380 --> 00:25:40.660 a masterpiece, unparalleled. Will do. And to 00:25:40.660 --> 00:25:43.000 you listening right now, thanks for taking this 00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:46.039 deep dive with us. Keep exploring. Stay curious.