WEBVTT

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Welcome back to the Deep Dive. Today we are going

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to talk about a very specific, very human kind

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of madness. You know that feeling when you decide

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to change your life? That rush of adrenaline

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when you say, okay, starting Monday, no more

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junk food? Whoa! Or starting tomorrow, I'm going

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to write that novel. The moment of resolve, it's

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intoxicating, isn't it? Exactly. It feels better

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than actually doing the thing. And today, we're

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looking at a man who got so addicted to that

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feeling. the thrill of the last one, that he

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built his entire life and literature around it.

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It's incredible. We're talking about a guy who

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spent decades planning to quit smoking, writing

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dates on the walls, celebrating the last cigarette

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over and over again, just so he could feel the

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pleasure of restarting. And the irony, of course,

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is that this wasn't just a personal quirk. It

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was the engine that drove one of the most important

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and I think accidental literary careers of the

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20th century. We are diving into the life of

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a man born Aaron Hector Schmitz, who the world

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eventually came to know as Italos Fevo. A name

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most people probably haven't heard. Exactly.

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And if you're listening to this and thinking,

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I've never heard of him, that is actually part

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of the story. For most of his life, nobody else

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had either. We're looking at a failed writer

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who spent the prime of his life selling, of all

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things, underwater paint for warships. Which

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is not the typical biography of a literary genius.

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Not at all, yeah. Usually we hear about the starving

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artist in the Garrett or the professor or the

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journalist. We rarely hear about the industrial

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paint salesman. Not at all. But the sources we

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have today. biographies, literary analysis, and

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specifically his masterpiece, Zeno's Conscience,

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tell a story of how this paint salesman ended

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up really inventing the modern psychological

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novel. He absolutely did. And the craziest part,

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he likely would have died completely unknown

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if he hadn't hired a random English tutor in

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Trieste who just happened to be a young, broke

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James Joyce. It's one of those history -altering

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coincidences that you just can't make up. It

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sounds like fiction. It really does. So our mission

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today is to unpack this. We want to understand

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how a man who considered himself a failure a

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totally inept figure as he would say managed

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to pioneer the use of Freudian theory in fiction

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before it was even really accepted in Italy.

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Right. We're going to look at the psychology

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of the unreliable narrator and ultimately we're

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going to see what this man of smoke can teach

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us about our own. you know, our own addictions

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to self -improvement. So let's get into the context.

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Yeah. Because you can't understand Sfavo without

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understanding where he was standing. Trieste.

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Right. So today, if you look at a map, Trieste

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is in Italy. It's right there in the northeast

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corner, kind of tucked away. But in 1861, when

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our subject was born, the map looked very, very

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different. Trieste was the jewel of the Austrian

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Empire. So we're talking about the Habsburgs.

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Exactly. Later Austria -Hungary, it was the empire's

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main outlet to the sea, its biggest, most important

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port. So imagine a city that isn't quite Italian,

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isn't quite German, isn't quite Slavic. It's

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everything at once. It's this massive, bustling

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commercial hub. You have coffee traders, insurance

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magnates, naval officers from all over the world.

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It's a melting pot in the truest sense of the

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word. It sounds like a place where identity would

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be. Slippery. Slippery is the perfect word. It

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was a liminal space. You had the rigid bureaucracy

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of Vienna, you know, all in German, trying to

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manage a population that was culturally Mediterranean

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Italian speaking. And Aaron Hector Schmitz, our

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future Idola Svevo, is born right into the middle

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of this identity crisis. He is the crisis personified.

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I mean, let's look at his family. He's born into

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a Jewish family, right? A secular Jewish family,

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yes. And his father is a... German -speaking

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businessman. His mother is Italian. So right

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there at the dinner table, you have this clash

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of cultures. And strictly speaking, it wasn't

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just a clash. It was a hierarchy. In the Austrian

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Empire, German was the language of power. It

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was the language of commerce, of the law, of

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getting ahead. And Italian. Italian was the language

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of the streets in Trieste, but it wasn't even

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standard Italian, the proper literary Italian.

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I read that he didn't even speak proper Italian

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growing up. That seems wild for someone who becomes

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a famous Italian writer. That's the crucial point

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that many people miss. His first language, the

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language of his heart and his home, was the Treestein

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dialect. It's a Venetian dialect, very specific

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to that region. It has its own rhythm, its own

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vocabulary, standard literary Italian, the language

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of Dante and Patriarch, the language of the academy

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was actually his second language. He had to learn

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it almost like a foreign tongue. And then on

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top of that, because his father was of German

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heritage and wanted his sons to be successful

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in the Austrian Empire. He sends them away. He

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sent Aaron and his brothers away to boarding

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school. In Germany. So he's completely immersed.

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Completely. Near Würzburg. So from the age of

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12, he is immersed in German. He's reading Goethe,

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Schiller, Schopenhauer in the original German.

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He's reading Shakespeare in German translation.

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He's reading the Russian classics. So by the

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time he comes back to Prieste, he's this total

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cultural hybrid. A lot of layers. He's Jewish,

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but secular. He's Italian by birth, but German

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by education. And he's living in an Austrian

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port city. It sounds like he didn't have a solid

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ground to stand on. Like if someone asked him,

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what are you? Yeah. The answer would take five

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minutes to explain. Which is exactly why he later

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shows the pseudonym Italo Svevo. It wasn't just

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a catchy name. It was a map of his psyche. Break

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that down. Italo obviously means Italian. Svevo

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refers to Swabian, which is a historical region

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of Germany. So literally he called himself. Adelice,

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the Swabian. That feels almost contradictory,

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like calling yourself the French Englishman or

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something. It was a contradiction and it was

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a statement. But in the late 19th century, that

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was a dangerous thing to be. Nationalism was

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on the rise everywhere. People wanted you to

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pick a side. Are you Italian? Are you Austrian?

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And he's saying. And here comes this guy saying,

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I am the hyphen. I am both. He was signaling

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that he was a bridge between these cultures.

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But for a long time, being a bridge just meant

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everyone walked all over you. So he comes back

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to Trieste in 1880. He's young. He's incredibly

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well read. He has this head full of European

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literature. He wants to be a writer. He probably

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envisions a life of, you know, leisure, writing

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plays, living off his father's money. That was

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absolutely the plan. His father had a successful

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glassware business. Aaron probably thought he

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was set for life. He could be a gentleman scholar,

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dabble in the arts, maybe publish a few poems.

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But then... The reality of 19th century capitalism

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hit. Hard. The crash. His father's business collapsed.

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It went bankrupt. And purely from a practical

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standpoint, the man of leisure dream just evaporates

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instantly. All gone. The young intellectual who

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just wants to read Hamlet and write stories now

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has to go out and get a job to support the family.

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And he doesn't get a job in a library or a university

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where he could maybe use his brain in a creative

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way? Oh, no, nothing like that. He gets a job

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at the Union Bank of Vienna. As a correspondence

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clerk. That is a soul -crushing pivot from literature

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to ledgers. And he stayed there for 20 years.

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20 years. I want to pause on that because we

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often hear stories of writers who struggle for

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a year or two. Maybe they wait tables or drive

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a cab. But 20 years of sitting behind a counter,

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processing transactions, writing business letters

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in French and German, that has to do something

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to a person's mind. It did. It created this deep

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sense of alienation. He referred to those hours

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at the bank as time subtracted from life. He

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felt like a cog in a machine. But, and this is

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the key insight for us, that drudgery is what

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gave his writing its unique flavor. How so? He

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wasn't writing about heroic nights or sweeping

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romances. He began to write about the grayness

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of modern life. The bureaucracy. The feeling

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of being trapped in a system you can't control.

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The small, private humiliations of an office.

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job. It reminds me of Franz Kafka working at

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the Insurance Institute. The comparison is very,

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very apt. They were both subjects of the Austro

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-Hungarian Empire, both Jewish, both trapped

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in bureaucratic jobs they hated, and both writing

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about the absurdity of systems. They were contemporaries

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wrestling with the same modern condition. So

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he was writing in secret during this time, hiding

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it from his colleagues. He was. He was leading

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a complete double life. By day, the respectable,

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punctual bank clerk, Aaron Schmitz. By night,

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Or perhaps hiding manuscripts under the ledger

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when the boss wasn't looking. He was writing

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novels. And he was politically active, too. Yes.

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And this is another fascinating contradiction.

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He was contributing articles to a socialist newspaper

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called L 'Indépendant, a banker writing for a

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socialist paper. It just shows how fragmented

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his life was. OK, so let's talk about those early

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attempts, because often when we tell these stories,

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we skip to the success. But the failure here

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is really, really important. He publishes his

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first novel. Una vita, which means a life in

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1892. And he paid to have it published. That's

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an important detail. No publisher was breaking

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down his door. He believed in it enough to finance

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it himself, which is a huge financial risk for

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a bank clerk. Ouch. And the reception? What did

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the critics say? Nothing. Absolute crushing silence.

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It was completely ignored. It didn't even get

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bad reviews. It just got no reviews. It was like

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shouting into a void. It just vanished. That

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might be worse than a bad review. It's much worse.

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At least a bad review means someone read it,

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someone engaged with it. Silence is just indifference.

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Okay. But he persists. He doesn't give up yet.

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He writes another one. Sinili Ta, published in

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1898. senility which is usually translated as

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senility or more accurately as a man grows older

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he poured his heart into this one it's a much

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more focused psychologically dense book he thought

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this is it this is the one that proves i'm a

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writer it's a melancholy story right about a

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man who kind of fails in Love and Life. Very

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much so. It's about self -deception. About a

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man who creates these romantic fantasies and

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then is crushed when reality doesn't match up.

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It's a very suave book. What was the verdict

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on this one? It was a disaster. But this time

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it was worse than silence. The critics who did

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bother to read it hated it. And do you know what

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they attacked? Let me guess. The plot. The depressing

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characters. They attacked his language. They

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mocked his Italian. Yes. Remember, Italian was

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his second language, and his professional life

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was in German. The critics said his style was

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commercial, uncultured, barbaric. They said it

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was full of business jargon and German -influenced

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sentence structures. So they didn't see it as

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a new style, they saw it as... Incorrect. They

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saw it as incompetence. It wasn't the flowery,

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poetic Italian that was popular at the time.

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The style of a writer like Donizio. Svevo's style

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was dry, analytical, almost clinical. And they

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just savaged him for it. That criticism must

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have stung. It's not just your story is bad.

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It's you don't even know how to speak our language.

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It attacks his very identity. It destroyed him.

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It confirmed his deepest insecurity that he was

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an outsider, an imposter. After Senilatov flopped

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so spectacularly, Svevo made a dramatic decision.

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He gives up. He formally renounced literature.

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He wrote in his diary that writing was a ridiculous

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and harmful thing. He decided that he was not

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a writer, that he had been deluding himself for

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years. He quit. He quit. He entered a period

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of literary silence that lasted for over two

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decades. He buried Italo Svevo and became just

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Aaron Schmitz, the businessman. And his life

00:11:36.379 --> 00:11:38.080
took a massive turnaround this time, right? He

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got married. Yes. In 1896, right before Senelita

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came out, he married his cousin, Livia Veneziani.

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His cousin. It was the 19th century. These things

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happened, especially within tight -knit bourgeois

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communities. But Livia wasn't just his cousin.

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She was his ticket out of the bank. Because her

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family was wealthy. Very wealthy. The Veneziani

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family were industrialists. They were big players

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in Trieste. There is an interesting detail in

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the notes about his religion here. Sveva was

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Jewish. Livia was Catholic. Right. And Livia,

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a devout Catholic, perhaps concerned about social

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standing or maybe due to a difficult pregnancy

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where she wanted spiritual protection, convinced

00:12:16.850 --> 00:12:20.070
him to convert. So purely for pragmatic reasons,

00:12:20.129 --> 00:12:22.629
he converts to Catholicism. But he didn't actually

00:12:22.629 --> 00:12:25.990
believe it. Not for a second. He remained a staunch

00:12:25.990 --> 00:12:28.539
atheist privately. But this is another layer

00:12:28.539 --> 00:12:30.440
of the mask, isn't it? He's acting the part of

00:12:30.440 --> 00:12:32.639
the good Catholic husband. He's acting the part

00:12:32.639 --> 00:12:35.019
of the banker. He's acting the part of the non

00:12:35.019 --> 00:12:38.440
-writer. He is a man composed entirely of performances.

00:12:38.480 --> 00:12:40.980
He's wearing a costume of normal bourgeois gentleman.

00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:43.860
Perfectly put. And then he joins the in -law's

00:12:43.860 --> 00:12:46.460
business. And this isn't just any business. This

00:12:46.460 --> 00:12:49.659
is the detail that I find so fascinatingly specific.

00:12:49.980 --> 00:12:53.399
They made underwater paint. Specifically, anti

00:12:53.399 --> 00:12:56.360
-fouling paint for ships. Right, an anti -fouling

00:12:56.360 --> 00:12:58.759
composition for the hulls of naval warships.

00:12:58.759 --> 00:13:01.490
Anti -fouling. That means keeping barnacles and

00:13:01.490 --> 00:13:03.470
seaweed off. Exactly. You have to understand

00:13:03.470 --> 00:13:06.610
the context. This was the era of the great naval

00:13:06.610 --> 00:13:09.850
arms race before World War I. Every navy in Europe,

00:13:09.929 --> 00:13:12.490
the British Royal Navy, the German Kaiserliche

00:13:12.490 --> 00:13:15.169
Marine, the Italians, the Austrians, they were

00:13:15.169 --> 00:13:18.590
all building massive steel dreadnoughts. Barnacles

00:13:18.590 --> 00:13:21.070
are bad for business. Barnacles are a military

00:13:21.070 --> 00:13:23.629
disaster. If they grow on the hull, it creates

00:13:23.629 --> 00:13:27.230
drag. It slows the ship down and massively increases

00:13:27.230 --> 00:13:30.620
fuel consumption. The Veneziani family had a

00:13:30.620 --> 00:13:34.519
secret formula, a special toxic paint that prevented

00:13:34.519 --> 00:13:38.100
this. It was a very lucrative, very important

00:13:38.100 --> 00:13:41.500
military technology. So the failed poet, the

00:13:41.500 --> 00:13:44.100
socialist writer, becomes a merchant of war paint.

00:13:44.360 --> 00:13:46.019
And he was good at it. That's the funny part.

00:13:46.100 --> 00:13:48.399
He didn't fail at business. He became a very

00:13:48.399 --> 00:13:51.039
successful industrialist. He traveled to France,

00:13:51.039 --> 00:13:53.559
to Germany, negotiating contracts with admirals

00:13:53.559 --> 00:13:56.639
and businessmen. He became the boss. He was wealthy,

00:13:56.820 --> 00:13:59.220
respected, and completely, utterly dead inside

00:13:59.220 --> 00:14:01.399
regarding his art. This job eventually takes

00:14:01.399 --> 00:14:03.720
him to London, doesn't it? Yes. The business

00:14:03.720 --> 00:14:06.200
was expanding. The British Royal Navy was the

00:14:06.200 --> 00:14:08.000
biggest client in the world, so the company set

00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:10.539
up a factory in Charlton in southeast London.

00:14:10.840 --> 00:14:13.059
And Svevo lived there for a while to oversee

00:14:13.059 --> 00:14:15.120
operations. There's a blue plaque there now.

00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:18.799
There is, at 67 Charlton Church Lane. It's amazing

00:14:18.799 --> 00:14:21.080
to think of him there. I love the image of this

00:14:21.080 --> 00:14:23.700
neurotic, intellectual, middle -aged Italian

00:14:23.700 --> 00:14:26.399
man wandering around a Doherty in London. He

00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:28.700
hated it. We have letters he wrote back to Livia.

00:14:28.759 --> 00:14:31.299
He complained about everything. The food, the

00:14:31.299 --> 00:14:40.210
weather, the constant... A total fish out of

00:14:40.210 --> 00:14:43.049
water. Completely. He was a man of the Mediterranean

00:14:43.049 --> 00:14:46.009
cafe culture, a man who loved to sit and talk

00:14:46.009 --> 00:14:49.350
for hours, stuck in the smog of industrial London

00:14:49.350 --> 00:14:52.370
where everyone was so proper. But this business

00:14:52.370 --> 00:14:54.610
expansion, this need to deal with the British,

00:14:54.789 --> 00:14:57.649
is what leads to the miracle. He needs to speak

00:14:57.649 --> 00:15:00.860
better English. to sell the paint correct he's

00:15:00.860 --> 00:15:03.460
back in trieste in 1907 he's doing more and more

00:15:03.460 --> 00:15:05.899
business with the british admiralty and he realizes

00:15:05.899 --> 00:15:08.340
his english is clunky it's functional but not

00:15:08.340 --> 00:15:11.059
fluent he needs a private tutor so he goes to

00:15:11.059 --> 00:15:13.240
the burlett school in trieste and asks for one

00:15:13.240 --> 00:15:16.159
and who walks in the door a 25 year old impoverished

00:15:16.159 --> 00:15:18.960
irishman disheveled probably hungover wearing

00:15:18.960 --> 00:15:22.139
these thick glasses a young man named james joyce

00:15:22.139 --> 00:15:24.360
this is the part of the story that feels scripted

00:15:24.759 --> 00:15:26.980
It's unbelievable. You have a middle -aged, paint,

00:15:27.220 --> 00:15:30.580
merchant, wealthy, respectable, wearing a suit,

00:15:30.620 --> 00:15:34.139
and this young, unknown, genius in waiting, sitting

00:15:34.139 --> 00:15:36.990
in a room, conjugating English verbs. And Joyce

00:15:36.990 --> 00:15:40.129
was not a great man yet. That's vital to remember.

00:15:40.389 --> 00:15:43.529
In 1907, he was struggling. He was drinking too

00:15:43.529 --> 00:15:45.549
much. He was constantly broke, borrowing money

00:15:45.549 --> 00:15:48.529
from everyone. He was working on Dubliners and

00:15:48.529 --> 00:15:51.830
a portrait of the artist as a young man. But

00:15:51.830 --> 00:15:53.889
he was essentially a nobody in Trieste. He was

00:15:53.889 --> 00:15:56.509
just the English teacher. But they must have

00:15:56.509 --> 00:15:59.009
clicked. It wasn't just about grammar. They bonded

00:15:59.009 --> 00:16:01.149
immediately. They bonded over being outsiders.

00:16:01.830 --> 00:16:04.509
Joyce was an Irishman in exile who hated the

00:16:04.509 --> 00:16:14.039
Catholic Church and the provincial... So they

00:16:14.039 --> 00:16:16.220
were both rebels in their own way. And they both

00:16:16.220 --> 00:16:18.320
had this dark, ironic sense of humor. They were

00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:20.740
both obsessed with literature. The lessons quickly

00:16:20.740 --> 00:16:22.940
became less about English and more about talking

00:16:22.940 --> 00:16:25.539
about Ibsen and Flaubert and philosophy. And

00:16:25.539 --> 00:16:28.179
eventually the secret comes out. The secret that

00:16:28.179 --> 00:16:31.039
this businessman used to be a writer. Svavo must

00:16:31.039 --> 00:16:34.580
have been terrified. Imagine this. He respects

00:16:34.580 --> 00:16:37.559
Joyce's intellect immensely. He sees this young

00:16:37.559 --> 00:16:41.159
man as a true genius. And finally, one day, he

00:16:41.159 --> 00:16:43.580
works up the courage to say, you know, I used

00:16:43.580 --> 00:16:45.700
to write, I published these two old novels years

00:16:45.700 --> 00:16:48.539
ago. They're gathering dust. Would you? Would

00:16:48.539 --> 00:16:50.879
you mind taking a look? He probably expected

00:16:50.879 --> 00:16:53.340
Joyce to laugh at him or to give him a play.

00:16:53.419 --> 00:16:54.740
Oh, that's nice. And then just throw him in the

00:16:54.740 --> 00:16:57.960
trash. Instead, Joyce took the books, read Una

00:16:57.960 --> 00:17:00.960
Vida en Senolita, and was absolutely blown away.

00:17:01.259 --> 00:17:03.659
He came back to the next lesson and told Svevo,

00:17:03.779 --> 00:17:06.579
Do you know that you are a neglected writer?

00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:09.799
There are passages in Senolita that even Anatole

00:17:09.799 --> 00:17:12.779
France could not have written. Wow. Anatole France

00:17:12.779 --> 00:17:14.680
was a Nobel Prize winner. That's high praise.

00:17:14.940 --> 00:17:17.019
It was the highest praise. And that validation,

00:17:17.299 --> 00:17:19.240
I can't even imagine what that felt like after

00:17:19.240 --> 00:17:22.099
20 years of silence and failure. To have this

00:17:22.099 --> 00:17:24.259
brilliant young man tell you that you were great

00:17:24.259 --> 00:17:26.039
all along. It must have been like a resurrection.

00:17:26.519 --> 00:17:29.319
It was the spark. Joyce didn't just teach him

00:17:29.319 --> 00:17:32.900
English. He resurrected Italo Svevo. He validated

00:17:32.900 --> 00:17:35.339
the very things the Italian critics had hated.

00:17:35.539 --> 00:17:38.259
The critics hated the dryness, the lack of poetry,

00:17:38.519 --> 00:17:42.319
the focus on internal psychology. Joyce saw that

00:17:42.319 --> 00:17:44.619
Svevo wasn't bad at being traditional. He was...

00:17:45.019 --> 00:17:47.220
good at being modern he saw the future in it

00:17:47.220 --> 00:17:49.279
he saw the future of the novel in those failed

00:17:49.279 --> 00:17:52.119
books he recognized a kindred spirit and the

00:17:52.119 --> 00:17:55.049
influence went both ways Right. Joyce got something

00:17:55.049 --> 00:17:56.890
out of this friendship, too. Something huge.

00:17:57.289 --> 00:18:00.009
At this time, Joyce was outlining his great project,

00:18:00.130 --> 00:18:03.549
Ulysses. He needed a protagonist, but not a hero

00:18:03.549 --> 00:18:05.509
in the traditional sense. He needed a middle

00:18:05.509 --> 00:18:08.329
-aged, Jewish, slightly neurotic, kind -hearted,

00:18:08.529 --> 00:18:11.269
intellectually curious everyman. Leopold Bloom.

00:18:11.470 --> 00:18:14.089
Leopold Bloom is largely based on Italo Svevo.

00:18:14.210 --> 00:18:16.190
Really? Absolutely. The way Bloom thinks, his

00:18:16.190 --> 00:18:18.269
curiosity about science, his domestic struggles,

00:18:18.569 --> 00:18:22.170
his specific brand of ironic humor, his outsider

00:18:22.170 --> 00:18:24.759
status. That's the paint merchant from Trieste.

00:18:24.900 --> 00:18:27.420
So even if Sfavo never wrote another word, he

00:18:27.420 --> 00:18:30.180
would be immortalized as the DNA of Leopold Bloom,

00:18:30.339 --> 00:18:32.779
one of the most important characters in all of

00:18:32.779 --> 00:18:35.480
literature. That is wild to think about. One

00:18:35.480 --> 00:18:37.480
of the most famous characters in English literature

00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:40.779
is actually a portrait of this obscure Italian

00:18:40.779 --> 00:18:43.500
businessman who sold ship paint. It creates this

00:18:43.500 --> 00:18:45.359
beautiful symmetry, doesn't it? They helped each

00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:48.079
other become immortal. So Joyce lights the fire,

00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:50.400
but it's not like he immediately runs off to

00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:53.809
write. History intervenes again. World War I

00:18:53.809 --> 00:18:56.170
happens. Right. And for a paint manufacturer

00:18:56.170 --> 00:18:59.549
in a major naval port, war is complicated. The

00:18:59.549 --> 00:19:01.869
city of Trieste is a battleground of loyalties.

00:19:02.109 --> 00:19:04.529
The factory gets shut down by the Austrian authorities.

00:19:04.930 --> 00:19:07.529
The Venezianis are seen as pro -Italian. The

00:19:07.529 --> 00:19:10.450
Italians see them as Austrians. Sfavo finds himself

00:19:10.450 --> 00:19:13.950
in this strange limbo. The business stops. And

00:19:13.950 --> 00:19:17.210
suddenly, after decades of being too busy, He

00:19:17.210 --> 00:19:19.390
has time. He has nothing but time. He's stuck

00:19:19.390 --> 00:19:21.890
at home. He starts translating Freud's work on

00:19:21.890 --> 00:19:24.990
dreams. He gets deeply into psychoanalysis. And

00:19:24.990 --> 00:19:26.890
with Joyce's encouragement still ringing in his

00:19:26.890 --> 00:19:28.990
ears, he starts writing again. And this time

00:19:28.990 --> 00:19:31.970
it's different. It's 1919. He's almost 60 years

00:19:31.970 --> 00:19:35.470
old. And he begins his masterpiece, La coscienza

00:19:35.470 --> 00:19:38.680
di Zeno Zeno's Conscience. This book is the one.

00:19:38.759 --> 00:19:41.619
It is the masterpiece. And it is completely different

00:19:41.619 --> 00:19:43.400
from anything else being written at the time,

00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:45.720
especially in Italy. He abandons the traditional

00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:48.099
third -person storytelling of his early failures.

00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:50.859
He adopts a first -person perspective. But it's

00:19:50.859 --> 00:19:53.839
not just a diary. It's a medical document. Or

00:19:53.839 --> 00:19:56.140
it pretends to be. Right. The framing device

00:19:56.140 --> 00:19:59.099
is just fantastic. The book opens with a preface

00:19:59.099 --> 00:20:02.660
written not by the author, Svevo, but by a psychoanalyst

00:20:02.660 --> 00:20:06.299
who calls himself Dr. S. Dr. S is in Sigmund.

00:20:06.859 --> 00:20:09.019
Or his fable. A little nod to both, probably.

00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:11.980
And the doctor says, I am publishing these memoirs

00:20:11.980 --> 00:20:14.380
of my patient, Zino Cossini, out of revenge because

00:20:14.380 --> 00:20:16.519
he abruptly quit his therapy and stopped paying

00:20:16.519 --> 00:20:18.940
me. That sets the tone perfectly. It's petty.

00:20:19.039 --> 00:20:22.460
It's funny. It's malicious. It immediately frames

00:20:22.460 --> 00:20:25.240
the entire book as an act of hostility and, most

00:20:25.240 --> 00:20:27.740
importantly, unreliability. We are told from

00:20:27.740 --> 00:20:29.660
page one that we cannot trust what we are about

00:20:29.660 --> 00:20:31.400
to read. We are reading the private thoughts

00:20:31.400 --> 00:20:33.440
of a man who is trying to lie to his doctor and

00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:35.900
therefore to himself and to us. And this is where

00:20:35.900 --> 00:20:38.640
the deep dive really needs to focus. Yeah. Because

00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:41.480
Zeno's conscience isn't just a funny story. It's

00:20:41.480 --> 00:20:44.200
a breakdown of the modern human mind. The main

00:20:44.200 --> 00:20:47.480
character, Zeno Cassini, is rich, he's idle,

00:20:47.640 --> 00:20:49.960
and he is obsessed with his own health and his

00:20:49.960 --> 00:20:52.500
own morals. He is the archetype of the Inetto,

00:20:52.680 --> 00:20:55.319
the inept one. This is a concept Svevo developed

00:20:55.319 --> 00:20:57.859
throughout his work. The inept one is incapable

00:20:57.859 --> 00:21:00.460
of living life directly. He can only analyze

00:21:00.460 --> 00:21:03.960
it. He hesitates. He doubts. He overthinks everything.

00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:06.279
He's paralyzed by his own consciousness. Exactly.

00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:08.819
And his biggest struggle, the thread that runs

00:21:08.819 --> 00:21:11.240
through the entire book, is his addiction to

00:21:11.240 --> 00:21:14.880
smoking. The Ultima Cigaretta. The last cigarette.

00:21:15.079 --> 00:21:17.599
Zeno goes to the doctor specifically to cure

00:21:17.599 --> 00:21:19.740
his nicotine addiction. That's the stated goal

00:21:19.740 --> 00:21:22.359
of the therapy. But as he explains his habit,

00:21:22.460 --> 00:21:24.700
we realize that smoking isn't the problem. The

00:21:24.700 --> 00:21:27.119
quitting is the problem. Break down the mechanism

00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:29.700
for us. Because in the source material, there's

00:21:29.700 --> 00:21:32.019
this fascinating paradox about why he smokes

00:21:32.019 --> 00:21:34.980
the last one. Okay, so Zeno explains that the

00:21:34.980 --> 00:21:37.200
most enjoyable cigarette is never the first one

00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:40.200
of the day. It's always the last cigarette. Why?

00:21:40.750 --> 00:21:42.750
Because when you smoke, what you decide is the

00:21:42.750 --> 00:21:45.690
last one. You are making a profound promise to

00:21:45.690 --> 00:21:47.970
yourself. This is it. New me starts now. After

00:21:47.970 --> 00:21:50.049
this, I will be a new man. I will be strong,

00:21:50.190 --> 00:21:53.170
healthy, disciplined. That moment of resolve

00:21:53.170 --> 00:21:56.470
gives him a massive dopamine hit. He feels virtuous.

00:21:56.869 --> 00:21:59.009
He feels powerful. It feels like he's conquered

00:21:59.009 --> 00:22:01.549
himself without actually doing anything. Exactly.

00:22:01.569 --> 00:22:04.410
He gets the reward of being a good person just

00:22:04.410 --> 00:22:07.009
by making the decision. But then... Once you

00:22:07.009 --> 00:22:09.430
finish that cigarette, the drama is over. The

00:22:09.430 --> 00:22:12.549
thrill of becoming is gone. You are just being

00:22:12.549 --> 00:22:16.529
a non -smoker. And Zeno can't stand being. He

00:22:16.529 --> 00:22:18.630
needs to be becoming. So to get that feeling

00:22:18.630 --> 00:22:20.970
of virtuous resolution back. He has to smoke

00:22:20.970 --> 00:22:23.549
again. He has to fail. He lights up the 10 a

00:22:23.549 --> 00:22:25.349
.m. cigarette so that the 11 a .m. cigarette

00:22:25.349 --> 00:22:28.150
can be the glorious last one again. It creates

00:22:28.150 --> 00:22:31.029
a perpetual loop of sin and repentance. It's

00:22:31.029 --> 00:22:33.539
a self -sustaining addiction to virtue. That's

00:22:33.539 --> 00:22:35.779
a brilliant way to put it. He writes dates on

00:22:35.779 --> 00:22:37.900
the walls of his bedroom, in his office. Fourth

00:22:37.900 --> 00:22:41.299
of June, 1905, last cigarette. Fifth of June,

00:22:41.400 --> 00:22:44.420
1905, really the last cigarette. Seventh of June,

00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:47.579
last cigarette important. The book is filled

00:22:47.579 --> 00:22:49.900
with these entries. It's so relatable it hurts.

00:22:50.059 --> 00:22:52.420
It's the diet that starts on Monday. It's the

00:22:52.420 --> 00:22:54.819
gym membership we buy in January and use twice.

00:22:55.119 --> 00:22:58.940
It is. Svavo, writing in 1919, identified that

00:22:58.940 --> 00:23:01.099
modern man is addicted to the potential of the

00:23:01.099 --> 00:23:04.099
future. We sacrifice the present moment because

00:23:04.099 --> 00:23:06.319
we are obsessed with the better version of ourselves

00:23:06.319 --> 00:23:09.079
that is always just around the corner. Zeno smokes

00:23:09.079 --> 00:23:11.880
to keep that better version alive as a fantasy

00:23:11.880 --> 00:23:14.859
rather than doing the hard work of actually changing.

00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:16.880
And throughout the book, he applies this same

00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:19.339
logic, the same ineptitude to everything. His

00:23:19.339 --> 00:23:21.839
marriage, his business, his affairs. Yes. The

00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:24.660
marriage plot is hilarious and so telling. He

00:23:24.660 --> 00:23:26.420
decides he wants to marry into this respectable

00:23:26.420 --> 00:23:28.859
family, Malfentis. He starts courting the most

00:23:28.859 --> 00:23:31.500
beautiful daughter, Ada. She's serious and intelligent.

00:23:31.640 --> 00:23:35.039
She rejects him brutally. Okay, plan B. He immediately

00:23:35.039 --> 00:23:37.680
proposes to her younger sister, Alberta, who

00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:39.700
is an aspiring writer. She just laughs at him.

00:23:40.019 --> 00:23:43.140
So in a single evening, humiliated and desperate,

00:23:43.440 --> 00:23:46.960
he ends up proposing to the third sister, Augusta.

00:23:47.079 --> 00:23:50.539
Augusta is. The one no one else wants. Zeno finds

00:23:50.539 --> 00:23:53.400
her ugly. She's cross -eyed. She's boring. He

00:23:53.400 --> 00:23:56.160
proposes to her out of a kind of pity and self

00:23:56.160 --> 00:23:58.900
-loathing. It's a total disaster. That sounds

00:23:58.900 --> 00:24:01.220
tragic. But here is the brilliance of the book.

00:24:01.579 --> 00:24:04.000
Augusta turns out to be the perfect wife for

00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:07.160
him. She is grounded, healthy, practical, loving.

00:24:07.480 --> 00:24:09.680
And Dino ends up having a surprisingly happy

00:24:09.680 --> 00:24:12.359
life almost by accident. He drifts into happiness

00:24:12.359 --> 00:24:14.640
while trying to sabotage himself. So it's not

00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:17.200
a tragedy of failure, it's a comedy of accidental

00:24:17.200 --> 00:24:19.920
success. That's the core of it. The book seems

00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:22.500
to be arguing that being inept, being a bit of

00:24:22.500 --> 00:24:24.579
a screw -up, might actually be a survival strategy

00:24:24.579 --> 00:24:26.940
in a chaotic world. What do you mean by that?

00:24:27.230 --> 00:24:29.049
Remember, this is written right after World War

00:24:29.049 --> 00:24:32.690
I, where the strong and decisive and healthy

00:24:32.690 --> 00:24:35.509
men of Europe led the continent into a slaughterhouse.

00:24:35.849 --> 00:24:39.549
Zeno is sick, neurotic, indecisive. But the people

00:24:39.549 --> 00:24:41.490
in the book who are rigid, the people who think

00:24:41.490 --> 00:24:43.670
they have it all figured out, they break. Zeno,

00:24:43.789 --> 00:24:47.369
who is flexible, who lies to himself, who drifts,

00:24:47.470 --> 00:24:51.049
he survives. He is like a cork bobbing on the

00:24:51.049 --> 00:24:53.529
ocean of life. He's a survivor because he doesn't

00:24:53.529 --> 00:24:57.180
resist. So the book comes out in 1923. Suevo

00:24:57.180 --> 00:25:00.279
is 61 years old. He has channeled Freud. He has

00:25:00.279 --> 00:25:02.660
channeled his own life. He has written an undeniable

00:25:02.660 --> 00:25:05.200
masterpiece. He put everything into this. Channel

00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:07.700
nothing. Crickets. You have to be kidding me.

00:25:07.720 --> 00:25:10.660
Again. Yeah. After all that. Again. The Italian

00:25:10.660 --> 00:25:13.180
literary establishment completely ignored it.

00:25:13.259 --> 00:25:15.519
They didn't get the joke. They didn't understand

00:25:15.519 --> 00:25:17.660
the psychoanalysis Freud was still looked at

00:25:17.660 --> 00:25:20.619
with deep suspicion in Catholic Italy. They thought

00:25:20.619 --> 00:25:23.579
the book was rambling, unstructured, and once

00:25:23.579 --> 00:25:25.920
again, poorly written. That is heartbreaking.

00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:27.640
He must have thought, well, the universe just

00:25:27.640 --> 00:25:29.200
doesn't want me to be a writer. That's three

00:25:29.200 --> 00:25:32.019
strikes. He was ready to give up again. He was

00:25:32.019 --> 00:25:34.640
resigned to his fate as the paint salesman who

00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:37.599
wrote a weird book. But he had one last card

00:25:37.599 --> 00:25:40.569
to play. He realized he had one connection left

00:25:40.569 --> 00:25:43.390
in the literary world. His old student. He sent

00:25:43.390 --> 00:25:46.369
a copy of the book to Paris to his old English

00:25:46.369 --> 00:25:50.119
tutor. Joyce. By 1923, James Joyce was arguably

00:25:50.119 --> 00:25:53.259
the most famous and infamous writer in the world.

00:25:53.420 --> 00:25:55.500
Ulysses had been published the year before. He

00:25:55.500 --> 00:25:58.319
was the toast of literary Paris. So Joyce receives

00:25:58.319 --> 00:26:01.539
this book from his old friend in Trieste, and

00:26:01.539 --> 00:26:03.619
he goes to work. What did he do? Just tell people

00:26:03.619 --> 00:26:06.000
about it. He became a one -man PR machine. He

00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:08.380
started telling all the influential French critics,

00:26:08.599 --> 00:26:11.160
people like Valérie Larbeau and Benjamin Cremieux,

00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:12.880
you have to read this book. This is a genius.

00:26:13.019 --> 00:26:15.660
He basically forced them to pay attention. He

00:26:15.660 --> 00:26:18.250
championed it. and he helped it translate it

00:26:18.250 --> 00:26:20.369
into French. And the French reaction was different.

00:26:20.650 --> 00:26:24.109
Night and day. The French critics, who were already

00:26:24.109 --> 00:26:26.289
into Proust and psychoanalysis and the stream

00:26:26.289 --> 00:26:29.289
of consciousness, they hailed it as a miracle.

00:26:29.450 --> 00:26:32.630
They got it. They called it the Italian comedic

00:26:32.630 --> 00:26:35.109
masterpiece. They compared him to Charlie Chaplin

00:26:35.109 --> 00:26:37.710
and Marcel Proust. They saw the genius of the

00:26:37.710 --> 00:26:40.750
introspection and the unreliability. And I assume

00:26:40.750 --> 00:26:44.269
once Paris loved it, Italy suddenly changed its

00:26:44.269 --> 00:26:46.579
tune. That is exactly how it works in the art

00:26:46.579 --> 00:26:48.259
world, isn't it? It's called the Svevo case,

00:26:48.500 --> 00:26:51.579
the Casso Svevo. Suddenly, the Italian critics,

00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:54.240
led by the very influential poet Eugenio Montale,

00:26:54.339 --> 00:26:57.500
were like, oh, yes, we knew he was great all

00:26:57.500 --> 00:26:59.920
along, a hidden master. They were shamed into

00:26:59.920 --> 00:27:02.059
recognizing him. Totally. If Paris says it's

00:27:02.059 --> 00:27:04.700
good, it must be good. So suddenly, at the age

00:27:04.700 --> 00:27:07.880
of 65, Svevo was famous. So he finally gets his

00:27:07.880 --> 00:27:10.099
moment. He travels to Paris. He's celebrated

00:27:10.099 --> 00:27:11.839
at dinners. People are calling him a genius.

00:27:12.119 --> 00:27:14.000
He enjoyed a few years of incredible celebrity.

00:27:14.490 --> 00:27:16.690
He finally merged the two halves of his life.

00:27:16.809 --> 00:27:19.289
The businessman and the writer were one person.

00:27:19.470 --> 00:27:21.950
He was affectionately known as the grand old

00:27:21.950 --> 00:27:24.670
man of Italian literature. It's a wonderful late

00:27:24.670 --> 00:27:26.930
-in -life success story. But we have to talk

00:27:26.930 --> 00:27:29.309
about the end, because for a man whose work was

00:27:29.309 --> 00:27:31.789
all about the irony of death and the last cigarette,

00:27:31.970 --> 00:27:35.970
his actual death is almost too perfect, too literary.

00:27:36.230 --> 00:27:38.150
It is the final chapter of the novel, really.

00:27:38.250 --> 00:27:41.309
It's 1928. He's working on a fourth novel, a

00:27:41.309 --> 00:27:43.750
sequel to Zeno. He's driving back to Trieste

00:27:43.750 --> 00:27:46.069
with his wife and grandson. And there's a car

00:27:46.069 --> 00:27:49.339
crash. A bad one. He was injured severely, a

00:27:49.339 --> 00:27:52.400
broken femur. He is taken to a hospital in a

00:27:52.400 --> 00:27:55.200
small town called Malta di Livenza. His health

00:27:55.200 --> 00:27:58.380
deteriorates rapidly. His old man's heart can't

00:27:58.380 --> 00:28:00.640
take the shock. He knows he's dying. He's lying

00:28:00.640 --> 00:28:03.559
there. He's in pain, struggling to breathe. And

00:28:03.559 --> 00:28:06.119
he realizes he's dying. And he makes one last

00:28:06.119 --> 00:28:08.240
request. He asks his nephew for a cigarette.

00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:10.819
Yes. A visitor, his nephew, is by his bedside

00:28:10.819 --> 00:28:12.700
and he whispers, a cigarette. And the nephew.

00:28:12.819 --> 00:28:14.980
The nephew, trying to be responsible, says, no,

00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:17.380
uncle, it will be bad for your heart. The doctor

00:28:17.380 --> 00:28:20.299
says, no. Denied. And Svavo looks at him with

00:28:20.299 --> 00:28:23.380
that typical wry, ironic smile and whispers his

00:28:23.380 --> 00:28:25.599
last words, that would have been my last. And

00:28:25.599 --> 00:28:28.380
then he dies. It gives me chills. He was denied

00:28:28.380 --> 00:28:30.900
the final ritual, the ultimate, ultimate cigarette.

00:28:30.960 --> 00:28:34.599
It is the supreme irony. The man who spent 50

00:28:34.599 --> 00:28:36.920
years celebrating the last cigarette as a concept

00:28:36.920 --> 00:28:39.599
never actually got to smoke the real one. He

00:28:39.599 --> 00:28:42.299
died with the desire still unfulfilled. Which

00:28:42.299 --> 00:28:45.380
is, in a way... The most Zeno way to go. Absolutely.

00:28:45.619 --> 00:28:47.759
It fits his philosophy perfectly. Life is incomplete.

00:28:48.079 --> 00:28:50.579
Life is about desire, not fulfillment. We are

00:28:50.579 --> 00:28:52.940
always interrupted before the final act. I want

00:28:52.940 --> 00:28:55.420
to zoom out a bit and look at his legacy. Because

00:28:55.420 --> 00:28:58.420
today, he's a giant in Italy. There are statues

00:28:58.420 --> 00:29:00.980
of him, schools named after him. But there's

00:29:00.980 --> 00:29:02.559
another aspect of his life we haven't touched

00:29:02.559 --> 00:29:05.819
on much. His politics. We said he was a socialist,

00:29:05.900 --> 00:29:08.240
but he was also a wealthy industrialist. How

00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:10.160
did he reconcile that? It's another one of the

00:29:10.160 --> 00:29:12.839
great Svivo contradictions. While he was managing

00:29:12.839 --> 00:29:14.660
the paint factory and becoming rich, he was still

00:29:14.660 --> 00:29:17.519
a Marxist at heart. But his socialism was less

00:29:17.519 --> 00:29:19.660
about violent revolution and more about a kind

00:29:19.660 --> 00:29:22.420
of humanistic pacifism. He'd seen war up close.

00:29:22.660 --> 00:29:25.160
He saw World War I destroy his city. Trieste

00:29:25.160 --> 00:29:27.460
was shattered by it. He saw the absurdity of

00:29:27.460 --> 00:29:29.859
nationalism, of Italians and Austrians killing

00:29:29.859 --> 00:29:32.000
each other. So his political thinking became

00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:34.400
about how to prevent that from ever happening

00:29:34.400 --> 00:29:37.099
again. The notes mentioned he had a very specific

00:29:37.099 --> 00:29:40.119
idea about Europe's future. Yes, and this is

00:29:40.119 --> 00:29:43.140
incredibly forward -thinking. Long before the

00:29:43.140 --> 00:29:46.039
European Union was even a dream, Svevo argued

00:29:46.039 --> 00:29:48.480
that the only way to stop the fighting was economic

00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:52.539
integration. He advocated for a United States

00:29:52.539 --> 00:29:55.339
of Europe. A common market. He believed that

00:29:55.339 --> 00:29:58.299
if nations traded with each other, shared currencies,

00:29:58.420 --> 00:30:00.859
and became economically interdependent, they

00:30:00.859 --> 00:30:03.440
wouldn't bomb each other. It was a banker's solution

00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:06.799
to a human problem, but it was incredibly prescient

00:30:06.799 --> 00:30:09.440
for the 1920s. It seems like he was always ahead

00:30:09.440 --> 00:30:11.480
of his time. He was doing Freudian fiction before.

00:30:11.500 --> 00:30:13.500
before the Italians knew who Freud was. He was

00:30:13.500 --> 00:30:15.599
talking about a European Union before the EU.

00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:18.960
He was writing about alienation and the fragmented

00:30:18.960 --> 00:30:21.099
self before the existentialists made it cool.

00:30:21.279 --> 00:30:23.500
He was a man out of time, and I think that's

00:30:23.500 --> 00:30:26.240
why he resonates so much today. When you read

00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:28.339
Zeno's Conscience now, it doesn't feel like a

00:30:28.339 --> 00:30:30.920
100 -year -old book at all. Zeno feels like a

00:30:30.920 --> 00:30:33.680
modern neurotic. He feels like us. He feels like

00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:35.960
me at 2 a .m. scrolling through my phone, promising

00:30:35.960 --> 00:30:38.539
myself I'll have a productive day tomorrow. Exactly.

00:30:38.539 --> 00:30:42.099
We are all Zeno. We are all full of good intentions

00:30:42.099 --> 00:30:45.119
and bad follow through. We are all constantly

00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:47.380
constructing these narratives to explain to ourselves

00:30:47.380 --> 00:30:50.400
why we aren't quite who we want to be yet. So

00:30:50.400 --> 00:30:54.140
if we step back, what is the big takeaway here

00:30:54.140 --> 00:30:58.000
from this whole incredible life? Is it just...

00:30:58.319 --> 00:31:00.700
Don't give up. Don't give up is part of it. I

00:31:00.700 --> 00:31:02.859
mean, the man wrote his masterpiece at 60. That's

00:31:02.859 --> 00:31:05.359
hugely inspiring for anyone who feels like they've

00:31:05.359 --> 00:31:08.000
missed their chance. But I think the deeper lesson

00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:10.420
is about what you called the accidental masterpiece.

00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:13.880
What do you mean by that? Sveba thought his life

00:31:13.880 --> 00:31:16.519
was a series of failures. He failed as a writer,

00:31:16.599 --> 00:31:18.720
which forced him to become a banker. The bank

00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:20.920
was a dead end, so he accidentally married into

00:31:20.920 --> 00:31:23.240
the paint business. The paint business was a

00:31:23.240 --> 00:31:25.160
distraction from his art, but it forced him to

00:31:25.160 --> 00:31:27.019
learn English. Which led him to Joyce. Which

00:31:27.019 --> 00:31:29.200
led him to Joyce, who then told him his failures

00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:31.930
were actually successes. Every single one of

00:31:31.930 --> 00:31:34.329
those wrong turns was a necessary step on the

00:31:34.329 --> 00:31:36.349
path. That's like a puzzle. You can't see the

00:31:36.349 --> 00:31:38.549
picture until the last piece fits. Yeah, exactly.

00:31:38.910 --> 00:31:41.450
If he had succeeded at 20, he would have written

00:31:41.450 --> 00:31:44.009
mediocre traditional novels and we would have

00:31:44.009 --> 00:31:46.569
never heard of him. He needed the failure. He

00:31:46.569 --> 00:31:48.970
needed the drudgery of the bank. He needed the

00:31:48.970 --> 00:31:52.210
silence to gestate and become the real Italo

00:31:52.210 --> 00:31:54.690
Svevo. And he needed the last cigarette as his

00:31:54.690 --> 00:31:57.109
lifelong theme. He needed the struggle. The struggle

00:31:57.109 --> 00:32:00.109
was the art. The tension between the man he was.

00:32:00.430 --> 00:32:02.809
and the man he wanted to be, that's where the

00:32:02.809 --> 00:32:05.170
genius came from. That's a beautiful way to think

00:32:05.170 --> 00:32:06.990
about it. Which brings me to a final thought

00:32:06.990 --> 00:32:10.190
for our listeners. Zeno Cassini believed he could

00:32:10.190 --> 00:32:13.329
constantly restart his life by quitting smoking.

00:32:14.369 --> 00:32:17.210
In our modern age of self -optimization, you

00:32:17.210 --> 00:32:19.289
know, New Year's resolutions, life hacks, the

00:32:19.289 --> 00:32:23.069
new year, new me mentality, I wonder if we aren't

00:32:23.069 --> 00:32:26.119
all a bit like Zeno. Are we addicted to the actual

00:32:26.119 --> 00:32:28.619
change or are we just addicted to the exhilarating

00:32:28.619 --> 00:32:31.019
feeling of deciding to start over without ever

00:32:31.019 --> 00:32:33.259
having to do the hard work? A provocative question.

00:32:33.480 --> 00:32:35.119
Are we just smoking one cigarette after another

00:32:35.119 --> 00:32:37.079
just to enjoy the thrill of putting it out? It's

00:32:37.079 --> 00:32:41.279
something to think about. Indeed it is. So, find

00:32:41.279 --> 00:32:43.779
your own Ultima cigarette a moment, but maybe

00:32:43.779 --> 00:32:46.359
actually quit this time. Thank you all for listening

00:32:46.359 --> 00:32:48.200
to this deep dive. It's been a pleasure. We'll

00:32:48.200 --> 00:32:48.900
see you on the next one.
