WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.140 Welcome back to another deep dive and I have 00:00:02.140 --> 00:00:04.320 to say I have been looking forward to this one 00:00:04.320 --> 00:00:07.559 all week because we are tackling a subject that 00:00:07.559 --> 00:00:11.740 is frankly just massive. It's a heavy one. It 00:00:11.740 --> 00:00:14.240 is. We are looking at a figure who is responsible 00:00:14.240 --> 00:00:17.519 for some of the best -selling, most culturally 00:00:17.519 --> 00:00:19.839 significant music, I mean, in the history of 00:00:19.839 --> 00:00:22.519 the human race, but who also manages to be one 00:00:22.519 --> 00:00:27.059 of the most polarizing, divisive figures in modern 00:00:27.059 --> 00:00:29.660 culture. He really is. We are unpacking the life, 00:00:29.780 --> 00:00:32.799 the music, and the very, very loud opinions of 00:00:32.799 --> 00:00:35.020 George Roger Waters. It's a lot to unpack, and 00:00:35.020 --> 00:00:38.039 you are so right about the scale. To really understand 00:00:38.039 --> 00:00:42.329 Roger Waters, you have to hold two... very contradictory 00:00:42.329 --> 00:00:44.850 ideas in your head at the same time. On one hand, 00:00:44.869 --> 00:00:47.090 you have the creative architect behind Pink Floyd's 00:00:47.090 --> 00:00:48.750 golden era. I mean, the man who wrote the lyrics 00:00:48.750 --> 00:00:50.850 that basically defined a generation's anxieties. 00:00:50.850 --> 00:00:52.750 For sure. And on the other hand, you have a man 00:00:52.750 --> 00:00:55.670 who seems, you know, seemingly hellbent on burning 00:00:55.670 --> 00:00:58.390 bridges, engaging these fierce political battles, 00:00:58.490 --> 00:01:01.990 and just constantly relitigating the past. Exactly. 00:01:02.009 --> 00:01:04.670 And just to set the stakes here, for anyone who 00:01:04.670 --> 00:01:07.370 might just think of him as, you know, the bass 00:01:07.370 --> 00:01:09.700 player from Pink Floyd. Let's just look at the 00:01:09.700 --> 00:01:11.239 numbers for a second. Yeah, the numbers are insane. 00:01:11.519 --> 00:01:13.219 We are talking about the dark side of the moon. 00:01:13.439 --> 00:01:15.879 This isn't just a hit record. It is a cultural 00:01:15.879 --> 00:01:21.180 monolith. It spent 736 consecutive weeks on the 00:01:21.180 --> 00:01:24.200 Billboard 200 chart. That is. That's nearly 14 00:01:24.200 --> 00:01:27.760 years. 14 years straight. It is a statistic that 00:01:27.760 --> 00:01:29.579 doesn't even sound real when you say it out loud. 00:01:30.519 --> 00:01:33.780 A typo. It's staggering. And then decades later, 00:01:33.920 --> 00:01:37.459 as a solo artist, he launches the Wall Live Tour, 00:01:37.659 --> 00:01:40.459 which becomes the highest grossing tour by a 00:01:40.459 --> 00:01:42.540 solo artist at the time. So the commercial power 00:01:42.540 --> 00:01:45.120 is just undeniable. Absolutely. But our mission 00:01:45.120 --> 00:01:48.159 today, it isn't just to list the hits or, you 00:01:48.159 --> 00:01:50.900 know, fanboy over the guitar solos. We want to 00:01:50.900 --> 00:01:53.400 unpack the man himself. Right. We want to understand 00:01:53.400 --> 00:01:56.040 how a war orphan from Cambridge. built one of 00:01:56.040 --> 00:01:58.920 the biggest bands in history, tried to dismantle 00:01:58.920 --> 00:02:01.840 it legally, and then completely reinvented himself 00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:05.920 as this weaponized political activist. And that 00:02:05.920 --> 00:02:08.240 really is the central tension of his life, isn't 00:02:08.240 --> 00:02:10.939 it? If you look at the trajectory, it is a career 00:02:10.939 --> 00:02:14.240 defined by building walls. Literally. Literally. 00:02:14.240 --> 00:02:17.979 With giant cardboard bricks on stage. And a later 00:02:17.979 --> 00:02:20.439 life dedicated to tearing walls down politically. 00:02:21.789 --> 00:02:24.330 But as we'll see, he often uses the exact same 00:02:24.330 --> 00:02:26.430 bricks to do both. That's a great way to put 00:02:26.430 --> 00:02:30.550 it. It's a story about trauma, control, and the 00:02:30.550 --> 00:02:33.310 refusal to compromise, for better or for worse. 00:02:33.569 --> 00:02:35.490 Now, before we dive in, we have to do a little 00:02:35.490 --> 00:02:38.090 housekeeping on the source material. We are working 00:02:38.090 --> 00:02:42.129 primarily from a comprehensive biographical dossier. 00:02:42.150 --> 00:02:44.789 Yeah, basically his Wikipedia entry and all the 00:02:44.789 --> 00:02:46.930 linked sources. Right, which covers everything 00:02:46.930 --> 00:02:50.240 from his childhood to... Very recent, very heated 00:02:50.240 --> 00:02:52.240 controversies. Right. And because we are covering 00:02:52.240 --> 00:02:54.580 Roger Waters, we are inevitably going to touch 00:02:54.580 --> 00:02:56.539 on some highly charged political topics. For 00:02:56.539 --> 00:02:58.439 sure. We're talking about the Israel -Palestine 00:02:58.439 --> 00:03:01.159 conflict, the Russia -Ukraine war, and accusations 00:03:01.159 --> 00:03:03.560 of anti -Semitism. And I just want to be really 00:03:03.560 --> 00:03:06.300 clear right up front. Our job here is to report 00:03:06.300 --> 00:03:08.740 on what is in the source material. We are going 00:03:08.740 --> 00:03:11.020 to look at what he said, how people reacted, 00:03:11.240 --> 00:03:14.250 and the events as they happened. We are staying 00:03:14.250 --> 00:03:17.710 neutral observers trying to understand the narrative 00:03:17.710 --> 00:03:20.610 arc of his life. Perfectly said. We are the observers. 00:03:20.810 --> 00:03:23.289 So let's rewind. Let's go all the way back because 00:03:23.289 --> 00:03:25.069 you can't really understand the anger and the 00:03:25.069 --> 00:03:27.289 isolation in Waters' music without looking at 00:03:27.289 --> 00:03:29.289 where he started. You really, really can't. And 00:03:29.289 --> 00:03:32.930 with Waters, the story begins with a ghost. The 00:03:32.930 --> 00:03:36.229 ghost of Eric Fletcher Waters. Precisely. Roger 00:03:36.229 --> 00:03:39.349 was born in September 1943. This is right in 00:03:39.349 --> 00:03:41.449 the thick of the Second World War. Right. His 00:03:41.449 --> 00:03:44.409 father. Eric was a fascinating figure in his 00:03:44.409 --> 00:03:47.409 own right. He was a schoolteacher, a devout Christian, 00:03:47.569 --> 00:03:50.129 and a Communist Party member. Which is an interesting 00:03:50.129 --> 00:03:52.689 mix already. I mean, you don't often see devout 00:03:52.689 --> 00:03:55.009 Christian and Communist Party member on the same 00:03:55.009 --> 00:03:57.889 resume. It really isn't. It speaks to a man of 00:03:57.889 --> 00:04:01.270 intense conviction, you know. And initially, 00:04:01.389 --> 00:04:03.849 Eric was a conscientious objector. When the war 00:04:03.849 --> 00:04:06.699 broke out, he refused to fight. Okay. He drove 00:04:06.699 --> 00:04:09.180 ambulances during the Blitz, pulling people out 00:04:09.180 --> 00:04:11.180 of the rubble in London. So he was still involved, 00:04:11.340 --> 00:04:14.879 just not in a combat role. Exactly. But, and 00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:17.120 this is the turning point that changes Roger's 00:04:17.120 --> 00:04:20.300 life before he can even speak. Eric changed his 00:04:20.300 --> 00:04:23.779 stance. As the war dragged on and the sheer evil 00:04:23.779 --> 00:04:26.579 of European fascism became clear, he decided 00:04:26.579 --> 00:04:28.699 he couldn't just watch anymore. He had to fight. 00:04:28.939 --> 00:04:30.959 He had to fight. He joined the Territorial Army 00:04:30.959 --> 00:04:33.579 and was commissioned into the 8th Battalion Royal 00:04:33.579 --> 00:04:36.339 Fusiliers. And five months after Roger was born? 00:04:36.439 --> 00:04:40.339 Eric is killed. February 18th, 1944, the Battle 00:04:40.339 --> 00:04:43.240 of Anzio in Italy. Wow. Roger is five months 00:04:43.240 --> 00:04:46.120 old. He never knew him. That is, I mean, we talk 00:04:46.120 --> 00:04:48.560 about childhood trauma, but... That is a void. 00:04:48.699 --> 00:04:51.199 That is a massive empty space right at the beginning 00:04:51.199 --> 00:04:53.160 of his life. And if you listen to Pink Floyd, 00:04:53.420 --> 00:04:57.240 specifically the later albums, that void is the 00:04:57.240 --> 00:04:59.100 engine. It's the whole thing. It's everything. 00:04:59.279 --> 00:05:01.240 The cost of war isn't just a political talking 00:05:01.240 --> 00:05:03.899 point for Waters. It's his entire identity. It's 00:05:03.899 --> 00:05:06.639 the lifelong motif. You hear it so clearly in 00:05:06.639 --> 00:05:09.139 the wall where the character Pink loses his father 00:05:09.139 --> 00:05:11.959 in the war. Absolutely. And you hear it in the 00:05:11.959 --> 00:05:14.930 final cut. which is explicitly dedicated to Eric 00:05:14.930 --> 00:05:18.569 Fletcher Waters. He is constantly, almost obsessively, 00:05:18.649 --> 00:05:21.589 trying to process the death of this father he 00:05:21.589 --> 00:05:23.589 never met. And it's not something he let go of 00:05:23.589 --> 00:05:26.709 either. The source mentions that in 2014, so 00:05:26.709 --> 00:05:28.870 we're talking when he is, what, 70 years old? 00:05:28.990 --> 00:05:32.269 70, yeah. He went to Aprilia, Italy, to unveil 00:05:32.269 --> 00:05:34.870 a monument to his father and other war casualties. 00:05:34.910 --> 00:05:38.889 70 years later, that wound is still fresh. It 00:05:38.889 --> 00:05:41.610 really frames everything he does. If you want 00:05:41.610 --> 00:05:43.610 to understand why he hates authoritarianism, 00:05:43.649 --> 00:05:45.810 why he hates military interventionism, why he 00:05:45.810 --> 00:05:48.129 is so suspicious of governments, it all goes 00:05:48.129 --> 00:05:52.079 back to Anzio. The state took his father. The 00:05:52.079 --> 00:05:54.279 state took his father and it left a hole that 00:05:54.279 --> 00:05:56.139 he's been trying to fill with music and anger 00:05:56.139 --> 00:05:58.040 ever since. So let's look at the living parent 00:05:58.040 --> 00:06:00.699 then. He was raised by his mother, Mary. She 00:06:00.699 --> 00:06:02.500 was also a teacher, right? Yes, also a teacher. 00:06:02.579 --> 00:06:05.000 And after Eric's death, she moved with Roger 00:06:05.000 --> 00:06:07.040 to Cambridge. And this brings us to the other 00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:10.300 major theme of his early life. School. If you've 00:06:10.300 --> 00:06:13.000 heard Another Brick in the Wall Part 2, you have 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:14.959 a pretty good idea of how Roger felt about the 00:06:14.959 --> 00:06:17.800 British education system. We don't need no education. 00:06:18.240 --> 00:06:21.220 It wasn't just, you know, some catchy teen angst 00:06:21.220 --> 00:06:23.699 lyric. He described his high school experience 00:06:23.699 --> 00:06:25.759 at the Cambridgeshire High School for Boys as 00:06:25.759 --> 00:06:29.819 explicitly oppressive. He hated it. He talks 00:06:29.819 --> 00:06:33.040 about bullying. Yes, not just by the kids, but 00:06:33.040 --> 00:06:35.639 by the teachers. He saw the whole school regime 00:06:35.639 --> 00:06:38.720 as this tool designed to crush individuality, 00:06:38.740 --> 00:06:41.560 to stamp out any creative spark. The famous lines, 00:06:41.680 --> 00:06:44.519 you. Yes, you. Stand still, laddie. Exactly. 00:06:44.620 --> 00:06:47.139 That imagery didn't come from nowhere. It was 00:06:47.139 --> 00:06:49.879 his reality. He said the same kids who were bullied 00:06:49.879 --> 00:06:52.360 by other kids were also susceptible to bullying 00:06:52.360 --> 00:06:54.519 by the teachers. So a top -down system of abuse. 00:06:54.740 --> 00:06:56.800 It was a cycle of abuse, in his view, designed 00:06:56.800 --> 00:06:58.939 to produce obedient workers for the factory floor. 00:06:59.220 --> 00:07:01.399 But interestingly enough, despite hating the 00:07:01.399 --> 00:07:03.680 environment, this is where the network starts 00:07:03.680 --> 00:07:06.379 to form. He attended this school with Sid Barrett. 00:07:06.540 --> 00:07:10.230 The original frontman of Pink Floyd. The mad 00:07:10.230 --> 00:07:13.569 genius. And David Gilmour, who would later replace 00:07:13.569 --> 00:07:16.449 Sid, lived nearby on Mill Road, though he went 00:07:16.449 --> 00:07:18.889 to a different school, the Purse School. So the 00:07:18.889 --> 00:07:20.810 cast of characters is assembling in Cambridge. 00:07:21.420 --> 00:07:23.800 It's wild to think that this one little geographical 00:07:23.800 --> 00:07:27.160 cluster produced three members of Pink Floyd. 00:07:27.399 --> 00:07:28.879 It's kind of incredible. The whole scene was 00:07:28.879 --> 00:07:30.980 right there. And he wasn't just a brooding teenager, 00:07:31.240 --> 00:07:32.860 right? He was already getting political. Oh, 00:07:32.879 --> 00:07:35.480 very early on. At 15, he was the chairman of 00:07:35.480 --> 00:07:37.939 the Cambridge Youth Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament. 00:07:37.980 --> 00:07:41.000 The YCND? Yep. He was designing publicity posters 00:07:41.000 --> 00:07:43.500 for them. So at the intersection of visual art, 00:07:43.579 --> 00:07:46.220 leadership, and political protest, it's there 00:07:46.220 --> 00:07:48.639 from the time he's a teenager. He was never just 00:07:48.639 --> 00:07:51.100 a musician. He was always an agitator. So he 00:07:51.100 --> 00:07:54.540 leaves Cambridge. He heads to London. And initially, 00:07:54.759 --> 00:07:58.480 he's not thinking rock star. He's thinking architecture. 00:07:58.800 --> 00:08:01.319 That's right. He enrolled at the Regent Street 00:08:01.319 --> 00:08:04.980 Polytechnic School of Architecture in 1962. And 00:08:04.980 --> 00:08:06.540 this is crucial, actually, because when you listen 00:08:06.540 --> 00:08:09.139 to Pink Floyd, especially the albums Waters Led, 00:08:09.339 --> 00:08:12.170 they have a structure. They are built. They're 00:08:12.170 --> 00:08:14.529 architects. Exactly. They aren't just jams. There 00:08:14.529 --> 00:08:16.910 is an architecture to the concept albums that, 00:08:16.949 --> 00:08:19.689 you know, it feels very deliberate. And that 00:08:19.689 --> 00:08:22.269 is where he meets the rhythm section. Nick Mason 00:08:22.269 --> 00:08:24.649 on drums and Richard Wright on keyboards. They 00:08:24.649 --> 00:08:26.550 were fellow students. Yeah. And like so many 00:08:26.550 --> 00:08:28.250 college bands, they started playing together 00:08:28.250 --> 00:08:30.310 in a tier room in the basement of the school. 00:08:30.490 --> 00:08:32.789 And the names. We have to talk about the names 00:08:32.789 --> 00:08:35.470 before they settled on Pink Floyd because they 00:08:35.470 --> 00:08:37.250 are incredible. Oh, they are fantastic. They 00:08:37.250 --> 00:08:40.389 went through Sigma Six. Sigma Six. Then the Megadeths. 00:08:40.679 --> 00:08:43.960 Spelled with two Gs inexplicably. The Megadeths. 00:08:44.039 --> 00:08:45.860 That sounds like a heavy metal band from the 00:08:45.860 --> 00:08:48.639 80s, not a psychedelic band from the 60s. Totally 00:08:48.639 --> 00:08:51.940 wrong genre. Wrong decade. The Screaming Ab -Dabs. 00:08:52.059 --> 00:08:53.980 The Screaming Ab -Dabs. I like that one. It's 00:08:53.980 --> 00:08:57.580 good. Leonard's Lodgers. And finally, the Tea 00:08:57.580 --> 00:09:00.940 Set. The Tea Set is so painfully, wonderfully 00:09:00.940 --> 00:09:04.720 British. It is. But eventually... Sid Barrett 00:09:04.720 --> 00:09:07.320 joins, and they become the Pink Floyd Sound, 00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:10.440 named after two American blues musicians, Pink 00:09:10.440 --> 00:09:13.779 Anderson and Floyd Council, and then just Pink 00:09:13.779 --> 00:09:16.019 Floyd. And in these early days, just to be clear, 00:09:16.179 --> 00:09:19.179 Roger is on bass, but he's not the leader. Not 00:09:19.179 --> 00:09:22.759 at all. Sid Barrett is the genius, the songwriter, 00:09:22.840 --> 00:09:25.539 the frontman, the creative force. This is the 00:09:25.539 --> 00:09:28.919 whimsy era. Right, songs about gnomes and scarecrows 00:09:28.919 --> 00:09:31.620 and bicycles. Exactly. Waters originally played 00:09:31.620 --> 00:09:33.940 rhythm guitar but switched to bass. But then, 00:09:33.980 --> 00:09:35.639 of course, we have the tragedy of Sid Barrett's 00:09:35.639 --> 00:09:39.379 mental health deterioration. By 1968, Sid is 00:09:39.379 --> 00:09:43.059 out. The LSD use, the mental instability, it 00:09:43.059 --> 00:09:45.259 just made it impossible for him to function in 00:09:45.259 --> 00:09:47.360 the band. And this creates a power vacuum. A 00:09:47.360 --> 00:09:50.399 huge power vacuum. And Rogers steps into it. 00:09:50.440 --> 00:09:52.220 He doesn't just step, he kind of leaps into it, 00:09:52.220 --> 00:09:54.159 right? He leaps into it aggressively. He basically 00:09:54.159 --> 00:09:57.639 says, okay, the whimsy is over. You want to drag 00:09:57.639 --> 00:09:59.600 the band away from that psychedelic fairytale 00:09:59.600 --> 00:10:02.360 stuff toward what he called political and philosophical 00:10:02.360 --> 00:10:04.620 concerns. And you can feel that shift almost 00:10:04.620 --> 00:10:07.159 immediately. It's a seismic shift. Yeah. And 00:10:07.159 --> 00:10:08.940 it's the shift that gives us the golden era. 00:10:09.100 --> 00:10:11.779 Okay, let's unpack this. Because from 1973 to 00:10:11.779 --> 00:10:14.940 1983, Underwater's conceptual leadership, they 00:10:14.940 --> 00:10:17.820 go on this just insane run. Dark Side of the 00:10:17.820 --> 00:10:20.360 Moon, Wish You Were Here, Animals, The Wall. 00:10:20.600 --> 00:10:23.080 It is arguably the greatest run of albums in 00:10:23.080 --> 00:10:24.620 rock history. It has to be in the conversation. 00:10:24.940 --> 00:10:28.220 It does. And notice the shift in tone. Darkseid 00:10:28.220 --> 00:10:31.559 isn't about gnomes. It's about madness, time, 00:10:31.960 --> 00:10:36.299 greed, death. It's serious art. It's about the 00:10:36.299 --> 00:10:38.919 human condition. It is. Waters said that when 00:10:38.919 --> 00:10:41.080 he played the finished mix of Darkseid for his 00:10:41.080 --> 00:10:43.500 wife at the time, she just burst into tears. 00:10:43.659 --> 00:10:46.240 Wow. And he thought, okay, this is a pretty complete 00:10:46.240 --> 00:10:49.110 piece of work. He knew they had struck a nerve. 00:10:49.230 --> 00:10:51.149 He realized that by tapping into these universal 00:10:51.149 --> 00:10:53.549 fears, he could connect with millions and millions 00:10:53.549 --> 00:10:55.970 of people. But as the success grows, so does 00:10:55.970 --> 00:10:58.610 the control, right? It seems like Roger starts 00:10:58.610 --> 00:11:01.389 tightening his grip on the band's creative direction. 00:11:01.710 --> 00:11:03.950 It becomes a stranglehold. By the time they get 00:11:03.950 --> 00:11:07.590 to the wall in 1979, it is largely Roger's autobiography. 00:11:07.669 --> 00:11:09.850 It's his therapy session. It's his therapy session 00:11:09.850 --> 00:11:12.750 played out on a double album. The rock star feeling 00:11:12.750 --> 00:11:15.639 isolated behind a wall. That's him. He's writing 00:11:15.639 --> 00:11:17.639 about his own alienation from the audience. The 00:11:17.639 --> 00:11:19.759 famous story of him spitting on a fan. Exactly. 00:11:19.960 --> 00:11:22.039 That was the seed of the entire concept. And 00:11:22.039 --> 00:11:24.399 then we get to the final cut in 1983. And this 00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:26.639 is where it gets really, really tense. Yeah, 00:11:26.659 --> 00:11:29.620 this is where the cracks become chasms. The final 00:11:29.620 --> 00:11:32.639 cut is practically a solo album. It is subtitled 00:11:32.639 --> 00:11:36.120 A Requiem for the Post -War Dream by Roger Waters, 00:11:36.399 --> 00:11:39.340 performed by Pink Floyd. Roger Waters, performed 00:11:39.340 --> 00:11:42.639 by Pink Floyd. That is... That is a statement 00:11:42.639 --> 00:11:44.679 that is putting your name above the brand in 00:11:44.679 --> 00:11:47.299 big, bold letters. It is. And the story behind 00:11:47.299 --> 00:11:49.720 the album is even more telling. The source notes 00:11:49.720 --> 00:11:52.240 that David Gilmour didn't have any new material 00:11:52.240 --> 00:11:54.799 written at the time. He asked Roger to delay 00:11:54.799 --> 00:11:57.000 the recording so he could write some songs to 00:11:57.000 --> 00:11:59.759 contribute. Roger refused. Just flat out said 00:11:59.759 --> 00:12:02.279 no. Flat out no. He said, no, we're doing this 00:12:02.279 --> 00:12:04.519 now. These are the songs. He just plowed ahead. 00:12:04.799 --> 00:12:07.799 Wow. And the tension was so bad that Gilmore's 00:12:07.799 --> 00:12:09.440 name was actually removed from the production 00:12:09.440 --> 00:12:12.500 credits. What? I didn't know that. Yeah. He was 00:12:12.500 --> 00:12:15.059 still paid his producer's royalty, but Roger 00:12:15.059 --> 00:12:17.320 essentially wiped him off the creative ledger 00:12:17.320 --> 00:12:20.120 of that album. It was a clear message. I am the 00:12:20.120 --> 00:12:22.700 creator. You are the musician. That's just brutal. 00:12:22.860 --> 00:12:25.860 So it's no surprise that two years later in 1985, 00:12:26.120 --> 00:12:29.169 the whole thing just explodes. The famous acrimonious 00:12:29.169 --> 00:12:32.429 split. And this is fascinating legal and artistic 00:12:32.429 --> 00:12:36.610 history. Waters leaves the band. He puts out 00:12:36.610 --> 00:12:38.990 a statement calling Pink Floyd a spent force 00:12:38.990 --> 00:12:42.389 creatively. Ouch. And he launches a legal battle 00:12:42.389 --> 00:12:45.190 to dissolve the partnership. He genuinely believed 00:12:45.190 --> 00:12:47.649 that Pink Floyd was him. Right. That the band 00:12:47.649 --> 00:12:49.669 couldn't exist without him. He made this comparison. 00:12:49.789 --> 00:12:51.870 He said if Paul McCartney and Ringo Starr went 00:12:51.870 --> 00:12:54.809 on tour as The Beatles without John Lennon, it 00:12:54.809 --> 00:12:57.529 would be sacrilegious. He viewed Gilmore and 00:12:57.529 --> 00:13:00.669 Mason continuing as Pink Floyd as an insult to 00:13:00.669 --> 00:13:03.250 the work, to the legacy. But he lost that fight 00:13:03.250 --> 00:13:06.389 legally. He did. The court and the industry sided 00:13:06.389 --> 00:13:08.809 with Gilmore and Mason. They kept the name Pink 00:13:08.809 --> 00:13:11.649 Floyd. Roger kept the rights to the wall concept 00:13:11.649 --> 00:13:14.649 and famously the inflatable pig from the animals 00:13:14.649 --> 00:13:17.450 tour. He got the pig. He got the pig. Or a small 00:13:17.450 --> 00:13:20.500 victory, I guess. But looking back. Years later, 00:13:20.679 --> 00:13:22.659 Waters actually admitted he was wrong about the 00:13:22.659 --> 00:13:24.639 lawsuit. Really? That doesn't sound like him. 00:13:24.700 --> 00:13:26.500 Humility isn't the first word that comes to mind. 00:13:26.720 --> 00:13:29.100 It's a rare moment of introspection, for sure. 00:13:29.440 --> 00:13:32.019 He said he failed to understand the commercial 00:13:32.019 --> 00:13:34.620 value of the brand name, independent of the members. 00:13:34.960 --> 00:13:37.779 He regretted all the negativity. He realized 00:13:37.779 --> 00:13:39.639 he couldn't just dictate to the others whether 00:13:39.639 --> 00:13:42.029 they were allowed to work or not. So that's a 00:13:42.029 --> 00:13:45.110 rare moment of, I guess, self -awareness in this 00:13:45.110 --> 00:13:47.009 story. So he's on his own. He's got the pig. 00:13:47.090 --> 00:13:48.590 He's got the wall, but he doesn't have the band 00:13:48.590 --> 00:13:51.429 name. How does the solo career kick off? It's 00:13:51.429 --> 00:13:54.690 a very rocky start. In 1984, while the legal 00:13:54.690 --> 00:13:57.370 battles are still raging, he releases The Pros 00:13:57.370 --> 00:14:00.720 and Cons of Hitchhiking. Which is... A concept 00:14:00.720 --> 00:14:03.539 album about a man's dream about hitchhiking? 00:14:03.639 --> 00:14:05.840 It's a concept album about a man named Reg having 00:14:05.840 --> 00:14:09.500 a midlife crisis, debating between monogamy and 00:14:09.500 --> 00:14:12.100 the call of the wild promiscuity. And it's all 00:14:12.100 --> 00:14:14.399 dreamt in real time. It takes place between 4 00:14:14.399 --> 00:14:17.259 .30 a .m. and 5 .11 a .m. That is incredibly 00:14:17.259 --> 00:14:20.000 Roger Waters level specific. It is. And he had 00:14:20.000 --> 00:14:22.519 Eric Clapton on guitar, which is a huge get. 00:14:22.679 --> 00:14:24.740 Yeah, having Clapton in your band is not a bad 00:14:24.740 --> 00:14:27.759 start. Not at all. But the critics. They hated 00:14:27.759 --> 00:14:29.759 it. Rolling Stone gave it one star. One star. 00:14:30.019 --> 00:14:32.759 They called it hideous. And the tour lost money. 00:14:32.940 --> 00:14:35.700 He estimated he lost about 400 ,000 pounds on 00:14:35.700 --> 00:14:38.710 that tour. Oof. That has to hurt, especially 00:14:38.710 --> 00:14:40.590 while the other guys are out there as Pink Floyd 00:14:40.590 --> 00:14:42.570 filling stadiums with the name he tried to kill. 00:14:42.710 --> 00:14:45.450 Exactly. Then he follows it up with Radio KAOS 00:14:45.450 --> 00:14:49.350 in 1987. Another concept album. Of course. This 00:14:49.350 --> 00:14:51.990 is another very dense concept. It's about a mute, 00:14:52.110 --> 00:14:54.629 wheelchair -bound man named Billy who can tune 00:14:54.629 --> 00:14:57.029 into radio waves in his head. Okay. And he eventually 00:14:57.029 --> 00:14:59.470 learns to communicate with a DJ, hacks the world's 00:14:59.470 --> 00:15:02.460 military computers, and simulates a nuclear attack 00:15:02.460 --> 00:15:04.679 to scare the world into peace. You know, that 00:15:04.679 --> 00:15:07.379 sounds weirdly prescient, actually, regarding 00:15:07.379 --> 00:15:10.059 hacking and cyber warfare, but maybe a bit heavy 00:15:10.059 --> 00:15:12.919 for 1987 pop radio. It was. It was a commercial 00:15:12.919 --> 00:15:14.360 disappointment. It didn't light the world on 00:15:14.360 --> 00:15:17.159 fire. Yeah. But then history hands Roger Waters 00:15:17.159 --> 00:15:19.340 a moment, a perfect once -in -a -lifetime moment. 00:15:19.419 --> 00:15:22.320 November 1989. The Berlin Wall falls. And he 00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:25.340 has the rights to the wall. Precisely. July 1990. 00:15:25.759 --> 00:15:28.649 The walls live in Berlin. This is the spectacle 00:15:28.649 --> 00:15:30.750 to end all spectacles. It was staged on vacant 00:15:30.750 --> 00:15:33.570 terrain between Potsdamer Platz and the Brandenburg 00:15:33.570 --> 00:15:36.889 Gate. Literally no man's land. The death strip 00:15:36.889 --> 00:15:40.149 just months before. The symbolism was off the 00:15:40.149 --> 00:15:42.330 charts. The scale of this event is hard to even 00:15:42.330 --> 00:15:44.710 picture. We are talking about an estimated attendance 00:15:44.710 --> 00:15:48.710 of anywhere between 200 ,000 and 450 ,000 people. 00:15:48.809 --> 00:15:51.009 One of the largest rock concerts in history. 00:15:51.169 --> 00:15:53.519 And the production itself was. It was massive. 00:15:53.740 --> 00:15:56.340 He had an East German symphony orchestra, a Soviet 00:15:56.340 --> 00:15:59.460 marching band, U .S. military helicopters. It 00:15:59.460 --> 00:16:01.399 was a massive geopolitical statement as much 00:16:01.399 --> 00:16:03.460 as it was a concert. And the guest list was insane 00:16:03.460 --> 00:16:05.720 too, right? Unbelievable. Joni Mitchell, Van 00:16:05.720 --> 00:16:08.340 Morrison, The Scorpions, Cyndi Lauper, Bryan 00:16:08.340 --> 00:16:11.460 Adams. It was a who's who of 80s rock and pop. 00:16:11.720 --> 00:16:13.820 But there were three people notably not invited. 00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:16.419 Gilmore Mason and Wright. Of course. Correct. 00:16:16.840 --> 00:16:19.620 Even at this moment of global unity, the band 00:16:19.620 --> 00:16:21.600 rift was still the wall that couldn't be torn 00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:24.899 down. That is tragic in a way. Just petty on 00:16:24.899 --> 00:16:27.259 some level. It really is. So he pulls off this 00:16:27.259 --> 00:16:30.960 massive historic event. Does that finally jumpstart 00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:34.740 the solo career? Artistically, yes. In 1992, 00:16:35.120 --> 00:16:38.340 he releases Amused to Death. And this is where 00:16:38.340 --> 00:16:41.059 I think, you know, even his biggest critics have 00:16:41.059 --> 00:16:43.759 to give him credit. Many fans and critics consider 00:16:43.759 --> 00:16:46.960 this his solo masterpiece. Okay, so what's the 00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:49.120 concept here? It's always about the concept. 00:16:49.279 --> 00:16:51.980 Always. It's heavily influenced by the Tiananmen 00:16:51.980 --> 00:16:54.980 Square protests and the first Gulf War. It's 00:16:54.980 --> 00:16:57.940 a critique of how war had become television entertainment. 00:16:58.200 --> 00:17:01.019 The CNN war. The CNN war, exactly. It's based 00:17:01.019 --> 00:17:03.340 on a book by Neil Postman called Amusing Ourselves 00:17:03.340 --> 00:17:06.000 to Death. He's exploring this idea that we're 00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:08.799 watching smart bombs go down chimneys like it's 00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:11.289 a Nintendo game. He's asking what happens to 00:17:11.289 --> 00:17:14.089 our humanity when death becomes content. Which, 00:17:14.170 --> 00:17:16.069 again, is a theme that has only become more and 00:17:16.069 --> 00:17:17.950 more relevant with the Internet and social media. 00:17:18.190 --> 00:17:21.029 Absolutely. It's a dense, brilliant, and deeply 00:17:21.029 --> 00:17:23.650 cynical album. But commercially, he was still 00:17:23.650 --> 00:17:25.710 living in the shadow of his past. He spent a 00:17:25.710 --> 00:17:28.170 lot of the late 90s and 2000s touring his old 00:17:28.170 --> 00:17:30.650 material. The In the Flesh tour, the Dark Side 00:17:30.650 --> 00:17:32.650 of the Moon live tour. He's playing the hits. 00:17:32.750 --> 00:17:34.490 He's playing the hits, which is what the people 00:17:34.490 --> 00:17:36.769 wanted to hear. And then we fast forward to the 00:17:36.769 --> 00:17:41.789 modern era. he decides to do something bold or 00:17:41.789 --> 00:17:44.809 sacrilegious depending on who you ask in 2023 00:17:44.809 --> 00:17:47.670 he re -records the dark side of the moon the 00:17:47.670 --> 00:17:50.390 dark side of the moon redux he's 80 years old 00:17:50.390 --> 00:17:53.170 when he does this why i mean why mess with what 00:17:53.170 --> 00:17:56.289 many people consider a perfect album his rationale 00:17:56.289 --> 00:17:58.710 was interesting he said that he and the band 00:17:58.710 --> 00:18:01.359 were so young when they made the original he 00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:04.380 felt that the central message of the album hadn't 00:18:04.380 --> 00:18:06.119 stuck you know look at the state of the world 00:18:06.119 --> 00:18:07.940 right so he wanted to bring the wisdom of an 00:18:07.940 --> 00:18:11.220 80 year old to the piece to recontextualize it 00:18:11.220 --> 00:18:13.500 and musically what did he do to it he stripped 00:18:13.500 --> 00:18:16.380 it way back it's very sparse very atmospheric 00:18:16.380 --> 00:18:19.339 he added spoken word sections over the top of 00:18:19.339 --> 00:18:22.170 the music and most controversially No guitar 00:18:22.170 --> 00:18:24.450 solos. No guitar solos on Dark Side. That's like 00:18:24.450 --> 00:18:26.490 taking the cheese off a pizza. I mean, Gilmore 00:18:26.490 --> 00:18:29.029 solos are as iconic as the lyrics. It was a statement. 00:18:29.029 --> 00:18:31.329 It was a deliberate act of reauthorship. He was 00:18:31.329 --> 00:18:33.049 saying, this piece is about the words. This is 00:18:33.049 --> 00:18:35.549 about the message. The music is secondary. How 00:18:35.549 --> 00:18:38.549 did that go over? It received, let's say, mixed 00:18:38.549 --> 00:18:42.190 reviews. But it shows that even at 80, he is 00:18:42.190 --> 00:18:45.589 not content to just play the hits. He wants to 00:18:45.589 --> 00:18:48.150 provoke. He wants to challenge the listener. 00:18:48.369 --> 00:18:50.619 And speaking of challenging the listener. This 00:18:50.619 --> 00:18:52.420 is where we have to pivot. Right. This is where 00:18:52.420 --> 00:18:54.420 it gets really complicated is maybe the best 00:18:54.420 --> 00:18:57.380 phrase. We have to talk about his politics. This 00:18:57.380 --> 00:19:00.079 is the elephant in the room or perhaps the inflatable 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:02.980 pea in the room. Roger Waters has evolved from 00:19:02.980 --> 00:19:06.019 a musician with political themes to a full blown 00:19:06.019 --> 00:19:09.039 activist who uses music as his platform. And 00:19:09.039 --> 00:19:11.500 the source material here is dense with controversy. 00:19:11.660 --> 00:19:13.519 We need to unpack this carefully because the 00:19:13.519 --> 00:19:16.650 accusations are very serious. They are. And we 00:19:16.650 --> 00:19:18.630 need to be careful to parse this out accurately, 00:19:18.730 --> 00:19:21.029 just reporting what's in the text. Let's start 00:19:21.029 --> 00:19:22.869 with the issue that generates the most heat, 00:19:22.950 --> 00:19:25.430 his stance on Israel and Palestine. Right. So 00:19:25.430 --> 00:19:27.910 Waters is a very vocal member of the BDS movement. 00:19:27.950 --> 00:19:30.630 That's Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions. He 00:19:30.630 --> 00:19:33.650 is one of his most famous proponents. He has 00:19:33.650 --> 00:19:36.150 repeatedly compared Israel's treatment of Palestinians 00:19:36.150 --> 00:19:39.769 to apartheid South Africa and, most controversially, 00:19:39.829 --> 00:19:42.220 to Nazi Germany. And he doesn't just talk about 00:19:42.220 --> 00:19:43.960 it in interviews. It's part of the show, right? 00:19:44.039 --> 00:19:47.180 It's integrated into the visuals. It is. In 2006, 00:19:47.500 --> 00:19:50.259 he visited the West Bank barrier. He spray -painted 00:19:50.259 --> 00:19:52.819 Tear Down the Wall on it. He moved a concert 00:19:52.819 --> 00:19:55.640 from Tel Aviv to Neve Shalom, a peace village 00:19:55.640 --> 00:19:58.099 founded by Jewish and Palestinian citizens of 00:19:58.099 --> 00:20:00.880 Israel. But over the years, his rhetoric has 00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:03.019 sharpened. He started calling out other artists. 00:20:03.299 --> 00:20:06.079 He did. He has publicly feuded with other artists, 00:20:06.140 --> 00:20:09.400 Bon Jovi, Radiohead, Nick Cave, criticizing them 00:20:09.400 --> 00:20:12.119 for performing in Israel. He essentially demands 00:20:12.119 --> 00:20:14.640 that other artists join his boycott. And when 00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:17.079 they don't, he attacks them publicly. Which has 00:20:17.079 --> 00:20:19.660 led to these very serious accusations of anti 00:20:19.660 --> 00:20:22.380 -Semitism. Yes. And we need to look at the specific 00:20:22.380 --> 00:20:25.339 evidence cited in the source material. In 2013, 00:20:25.599 --> 00:20:28.259 the Simon Wiesenthal Center, a Jewish human rights 00:20:28.259 --> 00:20:31.059 organization, accused him of anti -Semitism for 00:20:31.059 --> 00:20:33.240 using a giant pig balloon that had a Star of 00:20:33.240 --> 00:20:35.440 David on it. But to be fair, the pig had other 00:20:35.440 --> 00:20:37.140 symbols on it too, right? It wasn't just the 00:20:37.140 --> 00:20:40.460 Star of David. It did. It had a crucifix, a crescent 00:20:40.460 --> 00:20:43.519 and star, a dollar sign, the Shell oil logo, 00:20:43.700 --> 00:20:47.559 a hammer and sickle. Waters' defense was that 00:20:47.559 --> 00:20:49.640 these are all symbols of religious and political 00:20:49.640 --> 00:20:53.019 ideologies that he sees as oppressive. He wasn't 00:20:53.019 --> 00:20:56.180 singling out Judaism. His argument was that it 00:20:56.180 --> 00:20:59.099 was a critique of all dogmas. Exactly. He argues 00:20:59.099 --> 00:21:01.220 that listing the Star of David alongside the 00:21:01.220 --> 00:21:03.859 cross and the crescent makes it a universal critique 00:21:03.859 --> 00:21:07.529 of religion, not a specific attack on Jews. But 00:21:07.529 --> 00:21:09.170 his critics say putting the symbol of the Jewish 00:21:09.170 --> 00:21:11.650 people on an animal considered non -kosher is 00:21:11.650 --> 00:21:13.529 an anti -Semitic trope in itself, regardless 00:21:13.529 --> 00:21:15.769 of the other symbols. But it didn't stop there. 00:21:15.950 --> 00:21:18.890 There was the documentary in 2023. The Dark Side 00:21:18.890 --> 00:21:21.109 of Roger Waters. This was produced by the Campaign 00:21:21.109 --> 00:21:23.670 Against Anti -Semitism. It alleged that he sent 00:21:23.670 --> 00:21:26.410 emails to his team proposing an inflatable pig 00:21:26.410 --> 00:21:28.809 with a slurred dirty kike written on it alongside 00:21:28.809 --> 00:21:32.210 scum. Whoa. Okay, that is extremely specific 00:21:32.210 --> 00:21:34.880 and ugly. It is. Now, Waters has dismissed this. 00:21:35.000 --> 00:21:37.220 He claimed it was brainstorming regarding the 00:21:37.220 --> 00:21:39.460 evils of fascism and bigotry, not an expression 00:21:39.460 --> 00:21:42.140 of his own bigotry. He argues that he is exposing 00:21:42.140 --> 00:21:44.559 these ugly words, not endorsing them. But you 00:21:44.559 --> 00:21:46.619 can see why that defense doesn't land for a lot 00:21:46.619 --> 00:21:49.880 of people. Of course. When you are writing those 00:21:49.880 --> 00:21:52.880 words, even in what you call a brainstorming 00:21:52.880 --> 00:21:55.700 session, it is shocking. And then there was the 00:21:55.700 --> 00:21:59.740 uniform incident in Berlin. May 2023. He performed 00:21:59.740 --> 00:22:02.579 in Berlin wearing a long black leather trench 00:22:02.579 --> 00:22:05.240 coat with a red armband, reminiscent of a Nazi 00:22:05.240 --> 00:22:08.500 officer's uniform. German police actually opened 00:22:08.500 --> 00:22:11.180 an investigation for incitement. But wait, hasn't 00:22:11.180 --> 00:22:12.839 he been wearing that costume for 40 years? It's 00:22:12.839 --> 00:22:14.339 the character from The Wall movie, isn't it? 00:22:14.339 --> 00:22:16.940 The fascist dictator character, Pink. That is 00:22:16.940 --> 00:22:19.220 exactly Waters' defense. He came out and said, 00:22:19.319 --> 00:22:21.380 I've been doing this show since 1980. This is 00:22:21.380 --> 00:22:23.920 satire. I am playing a villain. I am playing 00:22:23.920 --> 00:22:26.599 a demagogue to critique demagogues. He's making 00:22:26.599 --> 00:22:29.480 an anti -fascist point by portraying a fascist. 00:22:29.500 --> 00:22:32.059 That's his argument. He argued that the investigation 00:22:32.059 --> 00:22:34.259 was absurd because the contest of the show makes 00:22:34.259 --> 00:22:37.359 it clear he's depicting a bad guy. But in that 00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:40.420 same defense, he also called the attacks diversionary 00:22:40.420 --> 00:22:43.559 tactics by the Jewish lobby. And using a phrase 00:22:43.559 --> 00:22:45.680 like the Jewish lobby probably didn't help his 00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:48.019 case against the accusations of using anti -Semitic 00:22:48.019 --> 00:22:50.480 tropes. It certainly didn't. That is a phrase 00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:52.799 that often crosses a line for critics. And the 00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:55.160 fallout from all this has been real. He lost 00:22:55.160 --> 00:22:57.849 a publishing deal with BMG. Hotels in Argentina 00:22:57.849 --> 00:23:00.329 and Uruguay canceled his reservations for his 00:23:00.329 --> 00:23:02.289 tour. And then there was the conflict with his 00:23:02.289 --> 00:23:05.150 former bandmates, which just went nuclear. The 00:23:05.150 --> 00:23:08.690 tweet. The tweet. In 2023, Pauly Sampson, David 00:23:08.690 --> 00:23:11.049 Gilmour's wife, and a lyricist for the later 00:23:11.049 --> 00:23:13.829 Pink Floyd albums, tweeted directly at Waters. 00:23:14.190 --> 00:23:17.210 She called him anti -Semitic to his rotten core. 00:23:17.869 --> 00:23:20.069 And she didn't stop there. She also called him 00:23:20.069 --> 00:23:23.309 a Putin apologist, a misogynist, a thief, and 00:23:23.309 --> 00:23:26.380 more. It was a brutal takedown. and Gilmore. 00:23:26.500 --> 00:23:28.579 He quote tweeted it and added his own comment. 00:23:28.759 --> 00:23:32.400 Every word demonstrably true. Wow. That is a 00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:34.720 bridge not just burned, but nuked from orbit. 00:23:34.940 --> 00:23:37.220 It is. It suggests that the bad blood isn't just 00:23:37.220 --> 00:23:39.619 about credits or money anymore. It's about fundamental 00:23:39.619 --> 00:23:42.740 moral disagreement. You mentioned Putin apologist. 00:23:43.119 --> 00:23:45.400 We have to pivot to Russia and Ukraine because 00:23:45.400 --> 00:23:48.019 his take there has been, well, unexpected for 00:23:48.019 --> 00:23:50.519 a Western rock star, to say the least. To say 00:23:50.519 --> 00:23:53.700 the least. Before the 2022 invasion, he went 00:23:53.700 --> 00:23:56.670 on a podcast. and called the rumors of an imminent 00:23:56.670 --> 00:23:59.890 attack bullshit. He was mocking the American 00:23:59.890 --> 00:24:02.930 media for suggesting Russia would invade. Well, 00:24:03.069 --> 00:24:06.150 that aged poorly. It did. After the invasion 00:24:06.150 --> 00:24:09.009 happened, he condemned it, but it was a very 00:24:09.009 --> 00:24:13.109 big but. He called it not unprovoked. Okay, what 00:24:13.109 --> 00:24:16.309 was his reasoning? He shifted the blame to NATO 00:24:16.309 --> 00:24:19.509 expansion. He blamed the West for backing Russia 00:24:19.509 --> 00:24:22.670 into a corner. He blamed Joe Biden, even labeling 00:24:22.670 --> 00:24:25.069 him a war criminal in his concert visuals for 00:24:25.069 --> 00:24:27.190 fueling the fire in the Ukraine. And then he 00:24:27.190 --> 00:24:29.549 spoke at the UN. I mean, this was surreal. It 00:24:29.549 --> 00:24:32.089 was. He addressed the UN Security Council at 00:24:32.089 --> 00:24:34.130 Russia's invitation. At Russia's invitation? 00:24:34.450 --> 00:24:36.089 How does that even happen? A Russian official 00:24:36.089 --> 00:24:38.670 saw an interview he gave, and they invited him 00:24:38.670 --> 00:24:41.269 to speak. In the speech, he condemned the invasion, 00:24:41.529 --> 00:24:44.309 to be fair. But he also condemned the provocateurs 00:24:44.309 --> 00:24:46.990 in the West, who he claims forced Russia's hand. 00:24:47.130 --> 00:24:49.089 How did that go down in the room? The Ukrainian 00:24:49.089 --> 00:24:51.549 ambassador wasn't having any of it. He looked 00:24:51.549 --> 00:24:53.410 at Waters and called him another brick in the 00:24:53.410 --> 00:24:55.890 wall of Russian propaganda. Using his own lyric 00:24:55.890 --> 00:24:58.490 against him. A very pointed moment. He also wrote 00:24:58.490 --> 00:25:00.970 to Ukraine's first lady, didn't he? He did. He 00:25:00.970 --> 00:25:03.390 wrote an open letter to Aida Zelenska, urging 00:25:03.390 --> 00:25:06.410 her husband to stop the war and negotiate, effectively 00:25:06.410 --> 00:25:08.650 telling the invaded country to stop fighting 00:25:08.650 --> 00:25:12.710 back. He accused extreme nationalists in Ukraine 00:25:12.710 --> 00:25:15.250 of setting the country on a path to this war. 00:25:15.529 --> 00:25:18.869 It's a very specific worldview. He seems to be... 00:25:19.099 --> 00:25:21.779 intensely skeptical of any Western narrative 00:25:21.779 --> 00:25:23.619 to the point where he often aligns with some 00:25:23.619 --> 00:25:26.519 very authoritarian regimes. That's the pattern. 00:25:26.660 --> 00:25:29.299 The source material outlines it clearly. He has 00:25:29.299 --> 00:25:31.579 stated that Taiwan is part of China and that 00:25:31.579 --> 00:25:33.380 the international community has accepted that 00:25:33.380 --> 00:25:36.740 since 1948. OK. He endorsed Maduro in Venezuela, 00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:40.119 calling the U .S.-backed opposition a sock puppet. 00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:42.920 He called the White Helmets, the civil defense 00:25:42.920 --> 00:25:46.099 volunteers in Syria, a fake organization creating 00:25:46.099 --> 00:25:48.720 propaganda for terrorists. It's interesting. 00:25:48.779 --> 00:25:51.599 He built his entire artistic identity on anti 00:25:51.599 --> 00:25:53.819 -authoritarianism, tearing down the schoolmaster, 00:25:54.019 --> 00:25:56.259 tearing down the wall. But now he often aligns 00:25:56.259 --> 00:25:58.660 with these very powerful state actors as long 00:25:58.660 --> 00:26:01.000 as they're anti -Western. That is the paradox 00:26:01.000 --> 00:26:04.079 at the heart of the modern Roger Waters. He views 00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:06.720 the United States and the West as the ultimate 00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:10.059 empire, the ultimate evil. So anyone opposing 00:26:10.059 --> 00:26:13.000 that empire, in his view, must have a point. 00:26:13.460 --> 00:26:15.680 But it leads him into these contradictions where 00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:19.160 the man who wrote The Wall. is defending governments 00:26:19.160 --> 00:26:22.940 that crush dissent. So after all of that, what 00:26:22.940 --> 00:26:25.319 does this all mean for the music? Can we separate 00:26:25.319 --> 00:26:28.180 the art from the artist? That is the million 00:26:28.180 --> 00:26:30.200 -dollar question, and it's really for every listener 00:26:30.200 --> 00:26:32.400 to decide for themselves. But we should talk 00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:34.299 about the artistry itself for a moment, because 00:26:34.299 --> 00:26:36.819 beneath all the politics and the feuding, there's 00:26:36.819 --> 00:26:38.740 a brilliant craftsman. Right, and we touched 00:26:38.740 --> 00:26:40.539 on this, but it's funny. He's a legendary bass 00:26:40.539 --> 00:26:42.900 player who kind of hates playing bass. He admitted 00:26:42.900 --> 00:26:45.240 it himself. He said he was never a bass player 00:26:45.240 --> 00:26:47.769 in his heart. He had no real interest in the 00:26:47.769 --> 00:26:50.190 instrument as an instrument. The source material 00:26:50.190 --> 00:26:52.509 notes that David Gilmour actually played a lot 00:26:52.509 --> 00:26:54.750 of the bass parts on the records because Roger 00:26:54.750 --> 00:26:56.650 couldn't be bothered or wasn't precise enough 00:26:56.650 --> 00:26:59.329 for the studio. So what was his instrument then, 00:26:59.430 --> 00:27:02.470 if not the bass? The studio. Mm -hmm. And the 00:27:02.470 --> 00:27:05.950 pen. He was a lyricist, first and foremost. Biographers 00:27:05.950 --> 00:27:08.750 cite his use of trochaic tetrameter. Trochaic 00:27:08.750 --> 00:27:10.910 tetrameter. Okay, break that down for us non 00:27:10.910 --> 00:27:13.650 -poets. It's a rhythmic meter in poetry. Most 00:27:13.650 --> 00:27:15.930 English poetry is iambic, which is da -di -om, 00:27:16.130 --> 00:27:19.009 da -di -om. Trochaic is the opposite. It's di 00:27:19.009 --> 00:27:22.190 -em -da, di -o -em -da. Think of the opening 00:27:22.190 --> 00:27:24.990 of the song, Time, taking away the moments that 00:27:24.990 --> 00:27:29.210 make up a dull day. It's a driving heartbeat 00:27:29.210 --> 00:27:32.170 rhythm. It's aggressive. It pushes the song forward 00:27:32.170 --> 00:27:34.470 relentlessly. He wasn't just throwing words together. 00:27:34.589 --> 00:27:38.329 He had a deep... Almost literary grasp of prosody 00:27:38.329 --> 00:27:41.009 and how rhythm affects emotion. And the sound 00:27:41.009 --> 00:27:42.809 effects. We can't talk about Pink Floyd's sound 00:27:42.809 --> 00:27:45.289 without the sound effects. Music concrete. Yeah. 00:27:45.410 --> 00:27:48.089 The clocks in time. The cash registers in money. 00:27:48.230 --> 00:27:50.509 The voices of the roadies floating in the background 00:27:50.509 --> 00:27:53.390 of Darkseid. He treated the album as a movie 00:27:53.390 --> 00:27:55.849 for the ears. He was building sonic landscapes. 00:27:56.130 --> 00:27:57.990 He wasn't a player. He was a builder. He was 00:27:57.990 --> 00:28:00.329 an architect. He was a virtuoso builder. A builder 00:28:00.329 --> 00:28:02.609 who builds walls. Exactly. It always comes back 00:28:02.609 --> 00:28:05.400 to that. So as we wrap up this deep dive, we 00:28:05.400 --> 00:28:08.380 are left with this just incredibly complex legacy. 00:28:08.500 --> 00:28:10.740 We are. We have a man who's been married five 00:28:10.740 --> 00:28:13.980 times, an atheist, a man permanently scarred 00:28:13.980 --> 00:28:17.460 by the death of a father in 1944, a man who achieved 00:28:17.460 --> 00:28:19.900 the absolute pinnacle of commercial and artistic 00:28:19.900 --> 00:28:23.339 success, and then spent the next 40 years fighting 00:28:23.339 --> 00:28:25.519 against the machine that made him rich and famous. 00:28:25.720 --> 00:28:28.099 He alienated his bandmates in the most public 00:28:28.099 --> 00:28:30.880 and brutal way possible. He's alienated a huge 00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:33.319 portion of his fan base with his politics, but 00:28:33.319 --> 00:28:35.880 he also created art that people, millions and 00:28:35.880 --> 00:28:38.279 millions of people cling to as the soundtrack 00:28:38.279 --> 00:28:40.220 of their... alive. He's the definition of the 00:28:40.220 --> 00:28:42.500 tortured artist, but he's also the torturing 00:28:42.500 --> 00:28:45.119 artist. He challenges you. He provokes you. He 00:28:45.119 --> 00:28:46.579 doesn't want you to be comfortable. He definitely 00:28:46.579 --> 00:28:48.339 doesn't want you to be comfortably numb. Nice 00:28:48.339 --> 00:28:50.599 one. Had to get it in there. Yeah. But really, 00:28:50.619 --> 00:28:52.599 he wants you to feel the pain, the anger, the 00:28:52.599 --> 00:28:55.599 injustice that he feels. Even if his targets 00:28:55.599 --> 00:28:58.099 for that anger now seem misplaced or contradictory 00:28:58.099 --> 00:29:00.519 to many of us. It brings us to a final thought, 00:29:00.660 --> 00:29:03.680 a final question for you to chew on. Roger Waters 00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:06.500 famously asked in his lyrics, is this the life 00:29:06.500 --> 00:29:09.519 we really want? A great question. A timeless 00:29:09.519 --> 00:29:12.619 question. But looking at his trajectory from 00:29:12.619 --> 00:29:15.299 the boy who felt trapped by an oppressive school 00:29:15.299 --> 00:29:17.960 regime to the man being investigated by police 00:29:17.960 --> 00:29:20.980 for wearing his own anti -fascist costume, from 00:29:20.980 --> 00:29:23.240 the man who screamed about isolation to the man 00:29:23.240 --> 00:29:25.559 who completely isolated himself from his closest 00:29:25.559 --> 00:29:28.539 collaborators, it raises another question. Go 00:29:28.539 --> 00:29:31.279 on. Does his life prove that you can never truly 00:29:31.279 --> 00:29:33.660 tear down the wall? That maybe when you tear 00:29:33.660 --> 00:29:36.039 one down, you just inevitably, unconsciously 00:29:36.039 --> 00:29:38.099 build a new one out of the exact same rubble? 00:29:38.200 --> 00:29:40.880 That is a haunting thought. And looking at Roger 00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:43.279 Waters, the man who is still fighting the Second 00:29:43.279 --> 00:29:46.299 World War in his head every single day at age 00:29:46.299 --> 00:29:49.200 80, the answer might be yes. That's all for this 00:29:49.200 --> 00:29:51.059 deep dive. Thanks for listening. Keep thinking. 00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:51.880 See you next time.