WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.480 Imagine, if you will, a figure who represents 00:00:02.480 --> 00:00:06.339 the absolute pinnacle of chaos. Okay. I want 00:00:06.339 --> 00:00:08.099 you to close your eyes and, you know, picture 00:00:08.099 --> 00:00:10.800 the ultimate cultural bogeyman of the late 20th 00:00:10.800 --> 00:00:13.339 century. We are talking about the poster child 00:00:13.339 --> 00:00:17.399 for anarchy. A man whose face was, well, is practically 00:00:17.399 --> 00:00:20.480 banned by the British establishment in the 1970s. 00:00:20.480 --> 00:00:22.559 I have a very specific image in mind already. 00:00:22.800 --> 00:00:25.879 I bet you do. A man whose rotting green teeth 00:00:25.879 --> 00:00:28.719 became a symbol of a whole generation's rage. 00:00:29.359 --> 00:00:31.980 You're picturing him, right? The sneer, the safety 00:00:31.980 --> 00:00:34.899 pins, the absolute refusal to conform to anything. 00:00:34.979 --> 00:00:37.520 Absolutely. It's grainy, black and white footage. 00:00:37.600 --> 00:00:40.140 It's almost always accompanied by these screaming 00:00:40.140 --> 00:00:42.399 tabloid headlines about the end of civilization 00:00:42.399 --> 00:00:45.079 as we know it. He's the villain in the grand 00:00:45.079 --> 00:00:47.219 narrative of recent British history. Right. The 00:00:47.219 --> 00:00:49.670 villain. The monster. Now, I want you to take 00:00:49.670 --> 00:00:51.649 that image, that snarling, spitting monster, 00:00:51.890 --> 00:00:54.310 and try to reconcile it with this next one. Go 00:00:54.310 --> 00:00:58.149 on. A devoted husband of 44 years. A nature enthusiast 00:00:58.149 --> 00:01:01.409 who gets genuinely, almost giddily excited about 00:01:01.409 --> 00:01:04.590 sharks and bugs. And this is where it gets really 00:01:04.590 --> 00:01:07.750 interesting. A man who financed the reunion of 00:01:07.750 --> 00:01:10.189 his avant -garde band by starring in a television 00:01:10.189 --> 00:01:13.900 commercial selling British butter. That is quite 00:01:13.900 --> 00:01:15.959 the juxtaposition. It just sounds like a glitch 00:01:15.959 --> 00:01:18.480 in the simulation. You know, those two people 00:01:18.480 --> 00:01:21.120 should not be able to occupy the same body. But 00:01:21.120 --> 00:01:24.180 they do. And that is the mystery we are hoping 00:01:24.180 --> 00:01:26.700 to solve today. We are unpacking the life of 00:01:26.700 --> 00:01:29.079 John Lydon, famously known to the world, of course, 00:01:29.120 --> 00:01:31.760 as Johnny Rotten, the front man of the Sex Pistols 00:01:31.760 --> 00:01:34.629 and public image LTD. We'll PL. And I think the 00:01:34.629 --> 00:01:36.769 mission of this deep dive is precisely that. 00:01:36.849 --> 00:01:39.109 It's to dismantle that paradox. We really need 00:01:39.109 --> 00:01:41.709 to move beyond the caricature, the safety pin, 00:01:41.870 --> 00:01:44.409 the spitting, the headlines and try to get to 00:01:44.409 --> 00:01:47.370 the intellectual, complex and frankly, deeply 00:01:47.370 --> 00:01:49.409 contradictory human being underneath it all. 00:01:49.530 --> 00:01:51.950 Because if you only know Johnny Rotten, you actually 00:01:51.950 --> 00:01:55.260 don't know John Lydon at all. And for this, we 00:01:55.260 --> 00:01:57.299 have a wealth of source material. We're pulling 00:01:57.299 --> 00:02:00.439 from his autobiography, his discography, countless 00:02:00.439 --> 00:02:03.780 interviews, and his political evolution right 00:02:03.780 --> 00:02:06.540 up to 2026. Exactly. And for you listening, whether 00:02:06.540 --> 00:02:09.199 you're a diehard punk fan or maybe someone who 00:02:09.199 --> 00:02:10.939 just knows the name Johnny Rotten as a piece 00:02:10.939 --> 00:02:14.300 of trivia, this matters. Yeah. It matters because 00:02:14.300 --> 00:02:17.080 this is not just a rock biography. It's a study 00:02:17.080 --> 00:02:20.259 in identity construction. It's about the massive 00:02:20.259 --> 00:02:22.180 difference between the image the media sells 00:02:22.180 --> 00:02:25.639 us and the reality of a person. It's about how 00:02:25.639 --> 00:02:28.740 a working -class kid from London reshaped popular 00:02:28.740 --> 00:02:31.539 culture, not by trying to fit in, but by, well, 00:02:31.620 --> 00:02:34.280 by aggressively refusing to. It creates a fascinating 00:02:34.280 --> 00:02:36.560 blueprint for how to survive in the public eye. 00:02:36.719 --> 00:02:39.360 You become the monster they fear so you can protect 00:02:39.360 --> 00:02:41.699 the person you actually are. It's almost a form 00:02:41.699 --> 00:02:43.419 of camouflage, isn't it? If everyone is looking 00:02:43.419 --> 00:02:45.080 at the safety pin, nobody is looking at your 00:02:45.080 --> 00:02:47.120 soul. So let's go back. Let's go back to the 00:02:47.120 --> 00:02:49.520 very beginning. To understand Rotten, we have 00:02:49.520 --> 00:02:52.719 to understand the crucible that forged him. We're 00:02:52.719 --> 00:02:56.180 going back to London, 1956. John Joseph Leighton 00:02:56.180 --> 00:02:58.319 is born. And we need to be really clear about 00:02:58.319 --> 00:03:00.319 the setting here. This isn't the swinging London 00:03:00.319 --> 00:03:04.159 of, you know, Austin Powers or the Beatles in 00:03:04.159 --> 00:03:06.159 tailored suits. Not at all. That's the exported 00:03:06.159 --> 00:03:08.960 image of the 60s, the tourist version. Leighton 00:03:08.960 --> 00:03:11.460 was born into a very specific, a very gritty 00:03:11.460 --> 00:03:13.699 reality. He was born in Holloway, North London 00:03:13.699 --> 00:03:16.259 to working class Irish immigrants. They lived 00:03:16.259 --> 00:03:18.919 in a two room Victorian flat. And when we say 00:03:18.919 --> 00:03:20.919 two -room flat, we're not talking about some 00:03:20.919 --> 00:03:22.719 minimalist studio apartment that you'd see on 00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:25.020 a design blog today. We are talking about genuine 00:03:25.020 --> 00:03:27.560 grinding poverty. Exactly. We are talking about 00:03:27.560 --> 00:03:30.460 an outside toilet. Just imagine that in a London 00:03:30.460 --> 00:03:32.400 winter. We are talking about living right next 00:03:32.400 --> 00:03:34.500 to the Arsenal football stadium so your entire 00:03:34.500 --> 00:03:37.659 life is punctuated by the roar of crowds and 00:03:37.659 --> 00:03:41.139 the chaos of match days. It was cramped, it was 00:03:41.139 --> 00:03:43.979 loud, and it was tough. And then there's the 00:03:43.979 --> 00:03:46.879 cultural isolation on top of all of that. Leiden 00:03:46.879 --> 00:03:49.300 has spoken so much about this Irish Londoner 00:03:49.300 --> 00:03:51.599 experience. It really sounds like he was trapped 00:03:51.599 --> 00:03:53.599 between two worlds from the moment he was born. 00:03:53.719 --> 00:03:56.599 He was. And this is so crucial to his entire 00:03:56.599 --> 00:04:00.960 worldview. In London in the 1950s and 60s, anti 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:03.680 -Irish sentiment was visceral. It was everywhere. 00:04:03.840 --> 00:04:05.680 You still saw signs in windows that literally 00:04:05.680 --> 00:04:09.840 said no Irish, no blacks, no dogs. Wow. Leiden 00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:12.560 was treated as Irish scum by his English neighbors. 00:04:12.800 --> 00:04:15.120 He talks about having bricks thrown at him just 00:04:15.120 --> 00:04:17.439 for being who he was. He was the outsider, the 00:04:17.439 --> 00:04:20.259 invader in the city he was born in. But then, 00:04:20.420 --> 00:04:23.519 and this is the really cruel twist, every summer 00:04:23.519 --> 00:04:26.060 he'd go back to County Cork in Ireland to visit 00:04:26.060 --> 00:04:28.339 family. You'd think that would be a sanctuary, 00:04:28.579 --> 00:04:31.120 a relief. You would think, but it wasn't. In 00:04:31.120 --> 00:04:33.220 Cork, he was mocked for his English accent. To 00:04:33.220 --> 00:04:35.540 the Irish kids, he was a plastic patty. He was 00:04:35.540 --> 00:04:38.220 a Brit. So you have a child who learns very, 00:04:38.300 --> 00:04:41.250 very early on that he doesn't belong. anywhere. 00:04:41.350 --> 00:04:43.509 He just couldn't win. He's too Irish for the 00:04:43.509 --> 00:04:46.389 English and he's too English for the Irish. Precisely. 00:04:46.389 --> 00:04:48.629 And that creates a very specific psychological 00:04:48.629 --> 00:04:52.110 profile. He later said, I view myself as British 00:04:52.110 --> 00:04:54.750 first and foremost. I'm proper London working 00:04:54.750 --> 00:04:57.589 class. But that experience of being rejected 00:04:57.589 --> 00:05:01.329 by both sides of his own heritage, that has to 00:05:01.329 --> 00:05:03.689 be the seed of his anti -establishment stance. 00:05:03.970 --> 00:05:05.949 It makes perfect sense. I mean, if you don't 00:05:05.949 --> 00:05:08.939 belong to any tribe. You stop trying to please 00:05:08.939 --> 00:05:11.459 the tribe. You just become a tribe of one. Even 00:05:11.459 --> 00:05:13.800 as that quote about it, something like, we were 00:05:13.800 --> 00:05:16.860 the Irish scum, but it's fun being scum too. 00:05:17.040 --> 00:05:20.240 Yeah. That's just such a light on perspective, 00:05:20.420 --> 00:05:23.100 isn't it? Taking the insult, the slur, and wearing 00:05:23.100 --> 00:05:26.160 it like a badge of honor, like armor. Oh, you 00:05:26.160 --> 00:05:28.540 think I'm scum? Fine. I'll be the best scum you've 00:05:28.540 --> 00:05:30.360 ever seen. It's a classic defense mechanism. 00:05:30.600 --> 00:05:32.199 But there was something else that happened in 00:05:32.199 --> 00:05:33.839 his childhood, something much more physical that 00:05:33.839 --> 00:05:35.740 I think really created the persona that we know. 00:05:36.459 --> 00:05:38.519 We have to stop here and really dig into this 00:05:38.519 --> 00:05:40.480 meningitis episode because I think just saying 00:05:40.480 --> 00:05:43.279 illness is too soft a word for what actually 00:05:43.279 --> 00:05:45.339 happened. We're talking about eight, seven. This 00:05:45.339 --> 00:05:47.920 isn't just a fever or a bad flu season. This 00:05:47.920 --> 00:05:50.899 is a life altering event. No, it's a biological 00:05:50.899 --> 00:05:53.819 catastrophe. He contracted spinal meningitis. 00:05:53.920 --> 00:05:57.120 He went into a coma and the consequences were 00:05:57.120 --> 00:06:01.029 just. He spent a full year in the hospital. A 00:06:01.029 --> 00:06:03.730 full year. But the most terrifying part, the 00:06:03.730 --> 00:06:05.410 part that sounds like something out of a horror 00:06:05.410 --> 00:06:08.170 film, is what happened when he woke up. Memory 00:06:08.170 --> 00:06:11.569 loss. Total erasure. The hard drive was completely 00:06:11.569 --> 00:06:13.949 wiped clean. He woke up and had no idea who he 00:06:13.949 --> 00:06:15.410 was. He didn't know his name. He didn't know 00:06:15.410 --> 00:06:18.470 what a mom or a dad even was. And that profound 00:06:18.470 --> 00:06:21.889 memory loss lasted for four years. Four years. 00:06:21.970 --> 00:06:24.490 Can you even imagine that? Being seven years 00:06:24.490 --> 00:06:27.129 old, essentially an orphan inside your own life. 00:06:27.310 --> 00:06:29.470 He talks about his parents visiting him in the 00:06:29.470 --> 00:06:32.269 hospital, this working class Irish couple, probably 00:06:32.269 --> 00:06:34.769 terrified out of their minds. And he looks at 00:06:34.769 --> 00:06:36.980 them and feels. Nothing. Worse than nothing. 00:06:37.079 --> 00:06:39.560 He felt suspicious of them. He described this 00:06:39.560 --> 00:06:42.560 profound sense of guilt because he saw these 00:06:42.560 --> 00:06:45.420 adults crying over him. And he knew on some level 00:06:45.420 --> 00:06:47.079 he was supposed to know them, but they were complete 00:06:47.079 --> 00:06:48.899 strangers. He actually thought they were part 00:06:48.899 --> 00:06:50.980 of some conspiracy to hurt him. Because of the 00:06:50.980 --> 00:06:52.899 treatment, right? I mean, the medical procedures 00:06:52.899 --> 00:06:55.279 in the early 60s weren't exactly gentle. They 00:06:55.279 --> 00:06:58.319 were brutal. To treat meningitis back then, they 00:06:58.319 --> 00:07:01.720 had to draw fluid from the spine. Lumbar punctures. 00:07:01.800 --> 00:07:04.939 With these huge needles. Often with little to 00:07:04.939 --> 00:07:07.579 no... sedation for a child. Oh, God. The nurses 00:07:07.579 --> 00:07:09.660 would have to hold him down. So in his seven 00:07:09.660 --> 00:07:11.379 -year -old mind, the hospital wasn't a place 00:07:11.379 --> 00:07:14.319 of healing. It was a torture chamber. And he 00:07:14.319 --> 00:07:17.160 thought these two strangers, his parents, were 00:07:17.160 --> 00:07:19.339 the ones allowing it to happen to him. So you 00:07:19.339 --> 00:07:22.120 have a child who learns at age seven that the 00:07:22.120 --> 00:07:25.079 world is fundamentally a place of pain, that 00:07:25.079 --> 00:07:27.680 adults are not to be trusted, and that you are 00:07:27.680 --> 00:07:30.639 completely and utterly alone inside your own 00:07:30.639 --> 00:07:33.079 head. And that right there is the birth of the 00:07:33.079 --> 00:07:35.800 light on stare. You know, it's intense, it's 00:07:35.800 --> 00:07:37.939 unblinking, it's slightly manic. I always just 00:07:37.939 --> 00:07:39.639 assumed that was a performance choice. Like, 00:07:39.639 --> 00:07:41.459 he was trying to look psychotic for the cameras 00:07:41.459 --> 00:07:44.079 to build the Johnny Rotten brand. Not initially, 00:07:44.180 --> 00:07:46.860 no. It was a direct medical result of the meningitis. 00:07:47.079 --> 00:07:50.019 His eyesight was severely damaged. In order for 00:07:50.019 --> 00:07:51.819 him to focus on anything, he had to lock his 00:07:51.819 --> 00:07:54.259 eyes and physically tilt his head back just to 00:07:54.259 --> 00:07:58.639 see straight. That's incredible. It's so ironic, 00:07:58.819 --> 00:08:02.160 isn't it? That hateful stare that terrified the 00:08:02.160 --> 00:08:05.399 British establishment in 1977 was actually just 00:08:05.399 --> 00:08:07.779 a little boy trying to focus his eyes. But he 00:08:07.779 --> 00:08:10.430 weaponized it. And this is the key insight, I 00:08:10.430 --> 00:08:12.790 think, for anyone listening. Layjohn realized 00:08:12.790 --> 00:08:16.029 that this, quote unquote, defect scared people. 00:08:16.230 --> 00:08:18.870 It made them deeply uncomfortable. And instead 00:08:18.870 --> 00:08:21.709 of trying to hide it or look normal, he leaned 00:08:21.709 --> 00:08:24.730 into it. He realized, if I look at you like this, 00:08:24.790 --> 00:08:28.569 you back down. It was his first real lesson in 00:08:28.569 --> 00:08:31.170 the power of intimidation. It's Survival 101. 00:08:31.879 --> 00:08:33.840 If you look like a monster, people think twice 00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:35.720 about trying to hurt you. And he had to reconstruct 00:08:35.720 --> 00:08:38.419 his entire personality from scratch. He said 00:08:38.419 --> 00:08:40.740 he spent those four years of memory loss just 00:08:40.740 --> 00:08:44.019 watching people, observing. He became a voyeur 00:08:44.019 --> 00:08:46.139 of human behavior because he didn't have a personality 00:08:46.139 --> 00:08:48.679 of his own. He was just mimicking what he thought 00:08:48.679 --> 00:08:50.480 a person was supposed to be. Which would explain 00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:52.860 why he was such a good or at least such a compelling 00:08:52.860 --> 00:08:55.779 front man later. He was a performance artist 00:08:55.779 --> 00:08:57.659 from age seven because he literally had to be. 00:08:57.720 --> 00:09:00.919 But once he recovered. or at least once he relearned 00:09:00.919 --> 00:09:03.899 who he was, he had to go back into the real world. 00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:06.519 He went to St. William of York Roman Catholic 00:09:06.519 --> 00:09:08.559 School. And if you know anything about working 00:09:08.559 --> 00:09:11.460 class Catholic schools in 1960s London, you know 00:09:11.460 --> 00:09:14.399 it wasn't exactly a Montessori. By his own account, 00:09:14.500 --> 00:09:17.639 it was a brutal, brutal environment. He was bullied 00:09:17.639 --> 00:09:20.159 by the other students. He was caned by the teachers. 00:09:20.360 --> 00:09:23.779 It was all about conformity. But then... At around 00:09:23.779 --> 00:09:26.960 14 or 15, something just snapped. He decided 00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:28.580 he wasn't going to take it anymore. He saw the 00:09:28.580 --> 00:09:30.299 teachers as trying to force everyone into the 00:09:30.299 --> 00:09:33.500 same mold, and he just broke the mold. The rebellion 00:09:33.500 --> 00:09:36.360 started with his appearance. And this is a classic 00:09:36.360 --> 00:09:38.639 teenage moment. But Ledon, as he always does, 00:09:38.740 --> 00:09:41.100 took it to the absolute extreme. His father, 00:09:41.200 --> 00:09:43.539 who was a traditional tough working class man, 00:09:43.799 --> 00:09:46.799 hated Ledon's long hair. He told him to get it 00:09:46.799 --> 00:09:48.639 cut. Get a proper haircut, right? Yeah. The classic 00:09:48.639 --> 00:09:51.740 dad line. Exactly. So Ledon obeyed the letter 00:09:51.740 --> 00:09:54.259 of the law, but absolutely not the spirit. He 00:09:54.259 --> 00:09:56.440 cut it, but then he went and dyed what was left 00:09:56.440 --> 00:09:59.840 of it bright green. That is the ultimate passive 00:09:59.840 --> 00:10:02.360 aggressive compliance of a teenager. But just 00:10:02.360 --> 00:10:05.340 turned up to 11. And it had real -world consequences, 00:10:05.639 --> 00:10:07.840 didn't it? He got a job at a children's play 00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:10.600 center teaching woodwork. Which, frankly, sounds 00:10:10.600 --> 00:10:12.840 dangerous enough given his general disposition. 00:10:13.240 --> 00:10:16.159 Right. But he was fired. And he wasn't fired 00:10:16.159 --> 00:10:18.659 for being bad at woodwork. He was fired because 00:10:18.659 --> 00:10:21.279 the parents complained about the weird guy with 00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:23.740 the green hair. It just reinforces that lesson 00:10:23.740 --> 00:10:26.039 he was already learning his whole life. Society 00:10:26.039 --> 00:10:28.879 judges you on the surface. If you look different, 00:10:28.960 --> 00:10:31.690 you are immediately treated as a threat. And 00:10:31.690 --> 00:10:34.330 eventually that lack of care for social norms, 00:10:34.389 --> 00:10:37.269 for what people thought, extended to his personal 00:10:37.269 --> 00:10:40.389 hygiene, which brings us to the name, the name 00:10:40.389 --> 00:10:44.370 that defined a decade, Johnny Rotten. It wasn't 00:10:44.370 --> 00:10:46.169 some marketing brainstorming session. No, it 00:10:46.169 --> 00:10:47.769 was entirely literal, which is almost funnier. 00:10:47.830 --> 00:10:50.870 In the mid -70s, his oral hygiene was so poor 00:10:50.870 --> 00:10:53.090 that his teeth had actually started to turn green. 00:10:53.500 --> 00:10:56.299 Green hair, green teeth, a very monochromatic 00:10:56.299 --> 00:10:59.240 look. Steve Jones, the Sex Pistols guitarist, 00:10:59.299 --> 00:11:01.700 saw him one day and just said, you're rotten, 00:11:01.799 --> 00:11:04.679 you are. And the name just stuck. It wasn't a 00:11:04.679 --> 00:11:07.139 character he created. It was a description of 00:11:07.139 --> 00:11:09.080 his physical state at that moment. So you have 00:11:09.080 --> 00:11:11.940 this green -toothed, green -haired, spinal -curved, 00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:14.840 intense -staring survivor walking around London. 00:11:14.919 --> 00:11:18.139 It's 1975. He's hanging around Malcolm McLaren 00:11:18.139 --> 00:11:22.019 and Vivian Westwood's infamous shop, Sex. And 00:11:22.019 --> 00:11:24.580 this is where history pivots on a dime. The audition 00:11:24.580 --> 00:11:26.720 process for the Sex Pistols is one of the great 00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:28.899 myths of rock and roll, but the reality is just 00:11:28.899 --> 00:11:31.379 as good as the legend. Maybe even better. Malcolm 00:11:31.379 --> 00:11:33.039 McLaren had just come back from managing the 00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:34.960 New York Dolls. He was looking for a look, an 00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:37.500 attitude. He was not looking for a trained vocalist. 00:11:37.519 --> 00:11:39.580 No. He wanted a sculpture, something he could 00:11:39.580 --> 00:11:41.899 put on a stage to upset people. And Lyne walks 00:11:41.899 --> 00:11:45.200 in, and he's wearing a pink Floyd t -shirt. But 00:11:45.200 --> 00:11:46.980 we have to explain the significance of that shirt. 00:11:47.080 --> 00:11:49.779 Why Pink Floyd specifically? To us today, Pink 00:11:49.779 --> 00:11:53.019 Floyd is just classic rock. Everyone's dad has 00:11:53.019 --> 00:11:55.860 a copy of Dark Side of the Moon. But in 1975, 00:11:56.159 --> 00:11:58.539 they were the absolute monarchs of the music 00:11:58.539 --> 00:12:01.000 industry. They represented everything that punk 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:03.639 was about to rebel against. Like what? What did 00:12:03.639 --> 00:12:06.860 they symbolize? Technical perfection, huge budgets, 00:12:07.100 --> 00:12:10.559 20 minute guitar solos, massive stadium spectacles 00:12:10.559 --> 00:12:13.259 with flying pigs. They were the establishment. 00:12:13.360 --> 00:12:15.799 They were corporate rock. So Leiden takes this 00:12:15.799 --> 00:12:18.899 shirt, the symbol of corporate rock, and he modifies 00:12:18.899 --> 00:12:20.779 it. He scratches out the eyes of the band members 00:12:20.779 --> 00:12:23.470 on the shirt and then writes. I hate in felt 00:12:23.470 --> 00:12:26.009 -tip pen right above the logo. That t -shirt 00:12:26.009 --> 00:12:28.429 is a manifesto in and of itself. It wasn't just, 00:12:28.450 --> 00:12:30.529 I don't like this band. It was, I hate the entire 00:12:30.529 --> 00:12:32.990 idea of this band. He was rejecting the notion 00:12:32.990 --> 00:12:35.389 that music had to be professional or polished 00:12:35.389 --> 00:12:38.049 or expensive. It was a declaration of war on 00:12:38.049 --> 00:12:40.909 competence itself. So McLaren sees this walking 00:12:40.909 --> 00:12:43.690 manifesto and asks him to audition. And what 00:12:43.690 --> 00:12:45.570 does Leiden do? He sings along to the jukebox. 00:12:45.850 --> 00:12:48.740 He sings along to Alice Cooper's I Am 18. But 00:12:48.740 --> 00:12:50.700 he doesn't sing it like a singer. He writhes. 00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:53.899 He spasms. He screams. He wasn't trying to hit 00:12:53.899 --> 00:12:56.679 the notes. He was like exercising demons right 00:12:56.679 --> 00:12:58.120 there in the shot. And the other guys in the 00:12:58.120 --> 00:12:59.759 band? The other guys in the band, Steve Jones, 00:13:00.080 --> 00:13:03.279 Paul Cook, they were actually horrified. They 00:13:03.279 --> 00:13:05.059 were rock and roll guys at heart. They wanted 00:13:05.059 --> 00:13:06.799 to be the next Rolling Stones. They looked at 00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:09.000 light and just thought, this guy is a complete 00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:11.799 lunatic. But that tension is the magic, isn't 00:13:11.799 --> 00:13:15.730 it? The friction between a band wanting to be 00:13:15.730 --> 00:13:18.450 a traditional rock band and the singer wanting 00:13:18.450 --> 00:13:21.750 to be a living piece of performance art. Precisely. 00:13:21.769 --> 00:13:24.330 That friction is what made the pistol sound the 00:13:24.330 --> 00:13:27.029 way they did. The band is playing these chugging, 00:13:27.029 --> 00:13:30.009 almost Chuck Berry style riffs, and Leiden is 00:13:30.009 --> 00:13:31.830 just wailing over the top of it, sounding like 00:13:31.830 --> 00:13:33.909 a bag of cats being thrown down a flight of stairs. 00:13:34.070 --> 00:13:36.389 It shouldn't work at all. But it did. It did, 00:13:36.429 --> 00:13:39.049 because it sounded exactly like London felt in 00:13:39.049 --> 00:13:42.000 1976. We have to paint that picture of London. 00:13:42.600 --> 00:13:45.620 The winter of discontent was looming on the horizon. 00:13:45.919 --> 00:13:49.309 It was grim. It was really grim. High unemployment, 00:13:49.669 --> 00:13:52.450 especially for young people. Trash was piling 00:13:52.450 --> 00:13:54.529 up on the streets because of constant strikes. 00:13:54.730 --> 00:13:56.509 There was the three -day week where electricity 00:13:56.509 --> 00:13:59.429 was rationed to save coal. The entire country 00:13:59.429 --> 00:14:02.149 felt like it was dying. And here comes this band 00:14:02.149 --> 00:14:05.110 screaming, no future. Yeah. It wasn't just nihilism 00:14:05.110 --> 00:14:07.230 for the sake of it. It was like they were reporting 00:14:07.230 --> 00:14:10.029 the news from the streets. It was social realism 00:14:10.029 --> 00:14:13.110 set to three chords. So they release Anarchy 00:14:13.110 --> 00:14:16.840 in the UK and then God Save the Queen. And the 00:14:16.840 --> 00:14:19.299 reaction wasn't just bad reviews in the music 00:14:19.299 --> 00:14:22.320 papers. It was, as one commentator perfectly 00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:26.210 described it, pop -based moral pandemonium. It 00:14:26.210 --> 00:14:28.669 is so hard for us to understand now in an age 00:14:28.669 --> 00:14:30.350 where everything is shocking and therefore nothing 00:14:30.350 --> 00:14:33.490 is shocking. Just how visceral the reaction was 00:14:33.490 --> 00:14:36.610 in 1977. This is the year of the Queen's Silver 00:14:36.610 --> 00:14:38.990 Jubilee. Right. The country was desperately trying 00:14:38.990 --> 00:14:40.809 to wrap itself in the flag and celebrate the 00:14:40.809 --> 00:14:42.730 monarchy to feel good about itself again. And 00:14:42.730 --> 00:14:44.990 here comes this band screaming, God save the 00:14:44.990 --> 00:14:47.210 queen. She ain't no human being. It was seen 00:14:47.210 --> 00:14:49.809 as treasonous. Yeah. Genuinely. And it wasn't 00:14:49.809 --> 00:14:52.950 just newspapers writing angry op -eds. It was 00:14:52.950 --> 00:14:56.480 physical violence. Lied. and his producers were 00:14:56.480 --> 00:14:59.740 attacked with razors outside a pub in Highbury. 00:14:59.879 --> 00:15:02.179 They were targeted. That's such a key point. 00:15:02.279 --> 00:15:04.879 This wasn't a marketing stunt for Lydon. It was 00:15:04.879 --> 00:15:07.600 physically dangerous to be him. He had that great 00:15:07.600 --> 00:15:09.980 line, turn the other cheek too often and you 00:15:09.980 --> 00:15:13.019 get a razor through it. He became public enemy 00:15:13.019 --> 00:15:15.840 number one overnight. But inside the band, it 00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:18.200 wasn't exactly a brotherhood of revolutionaries 00:15:18.200 --> 00:15:20.399 fighting the system together. There was serious 00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:22.860 tension from the start. Oh, massive tension. 00:15:23.240 --> 00:15:26.080 Lydon had a huge conflict with the original bassist, 00:15:26.100 --> 00:15:28.960 Glenn Matlock. Lydon felt Matlock was too middle 00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:31.620 class and, ironically, considering the Pink Floyd 00:15:31.620 --> 00:15:34.440 t -shirt, too obsessed with the Beatles. Matlock 00:15:34.440 --> 00:15:36.879 could write a tune. Matlock was a musician. Lydon 00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:38.539 was a force of nature. They were coming from 00:15:38.539 --> 00:15:41.000 completely different places. So Matlock leaves. 00:15:41.610 --> 00:15:43.850 or is pushed out, depending on who you ask. And 00:15:43.850 --> 00:15:46.269 in comes Lydon's old school friend, Simon John 00:15:46.269 --> 00:15:49.090 Ritchie. But we know him better as Sid Vicious. 00:15:49.309 --> 00:15:52.149 A name that, surprisingly and hilariously, came 00:15:52.149 --> 00:15:54.549 from Lydon's parents' pet hamster. Wait, you're 00:15:54.549 --> 00:15:57.509 kidding me. The most dangerous man in punk, the 00:15:57.509 --> 00:16:00.149 symbol of heroine chic and nihilistic destruction, 00:16:00.450 --> 00:16:04.240 was named after a hamster. Indeed. The hamster, 00:16:04.360 --> 00:16:07.659 named Sid, apparently bit Leiden's father, who 00:16:07.659 --> 00:16:10.100 exclaimed, Sid is really vicious, and the name 00:16:10.100 --> 00:16:12.860 was born. That's amazing. But bringing Sid into 00:16:12.860 --> 00:16:15.320 the band was the beginning of the end. Leiden 00:16:15.320 --> 00:16:17.860 essentially mentored Sid in the beginning. He 00:16:17.860 --> 00:16:20.679 gave him his first punk haircut, which involved 00:16:20.679 --> 00:16:22.840 literally hacking chunks out of his hair with 00:16:22.840 --> 00:16:25.100 no shape or logic. He taught him the attitude. 00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:28.120 But while Leiden was, you know, playing a role, 00:16:28.299 --> 00:16:31.250 he was intelligent, he was reading. He knew when 00:16:31.250 --> 00:16:34.429 to turn the Roulton persona on and off. Sid didn't 00:16:34.429 --> 00:16:36.690 have that switch. That is the absolute tragedy 00:16:36.690 --> 00:16:39.230 of it all. Sid started to live the caricature. 00:16:39.269 --> 00:16:42.009 He believed the headlines. Leighton watched his 00:16:42.009 --> 00:16:44.490 friend just completely decline into heroin addiction 00:16:44.490 --> 00:16:47.330 and that chaotic, doomed relationship with Nancy 00:16:47.330 --> 00:16:49.710 Spungen. Right. Leighton wasn't celebrating that 00:16:49.710 --> 00:16:51.529 chaos. He was actually the one trying to hold 00:16:51.529 --> 00:16:53.889 it all together, which is so contrary to the 00:16:53.889 --> 00:16:56.190 public image. He was the moral compass, as strange 00:16:56.190 --> 00:16:58.049 as that sounds. He was constantly trying to get 00:16:58.049 --> 00:17:00.850 Sid off the drugs. He tried to manage the madness. 00:17:01.309 --> 00:17:04.880 That brings us. to the final collapse the winterland 00:17:04.880 --> 00:17:08.579 concert in san francisco january 1978 the band 00:17:08.579 --> 00:17:11.880 is falling apart at the seams sit is a mess and 00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:15.019 ladon closes the show with that immortal final 00:17:15.019 --> 00:17:17.279 line ever get the feeling you've been cheated 00:17:18.119 --> 00:17:19.779 It was a question directed at the audience, of 00:17:19.779 --> 00:17:21.559 course, but you have to feel it was also directed 00:17:21.559 --> 00:17:24.619 at himself. He realized the Sex Pistols had become 00:17:24.619 --> 00:17:27.440 exactly what they set out to destroy. A circus, 00:17:27.579 --> 00:17:29.960 a product, a joke. They were just another rock 00:17:29.960 --> 00:17:32.299 band being sold to the masses. And here is the 00:17:32.299 --> 00:17:35.180 ultimate proof that Laudan had a moral line he 00:17:35.180 --> 00:17:37.900 would not cross. After the band broke up, the 00:17:37.900 --> 00:17:40.700 rest of them, McLaren's idea, was to go to Brazil 00:17:40.700 --> 00:17:43.559 to record with Ronnie Biggs. And for those who 00:17:43.559 --> 00:17:45.599 don't know, Ronnie Biggs was a famous British 00:17:45.599 --> 00:17:48.809 train robber who was on the run. a fugitive living 00:17:48.809 --> 00:17:51.829 in Brazil, the other Sex Pistols and McLaren 00:17:51.829 --> 00:17:54.990 saw him as this cool outlaw figure, a rebel. 00:17:55.150 --> 00:17:56.849 You'd think an anarchist would love a train robber. 00:17:56.930 --> 00:18:00.009 It fits the brand. But Lydon refused to go. He 00:18:00.009 --> 00:18:02.230 saw Biggs as a common criminal who had stolen 00:18:02.230 --> 00:18:05.009 working class money from a mail train and, crucially, 00:18:05.250 --> 00:18:07.849 had violently hurt a train driver during the 00:18:07.849 --> 00:18:11.190 robbery. Lydon refused to glorify him. He said 00:18:11.190 --> 00:18:13.529 something like, I don't dip my toe in the slurry 00:18:13.529 --> 00:18:16.190 of criminality. That is a fascinating distinction 00:18:16.190 --> 00:18:19.480 to make. He's happy to insult the queen, the 00:18:19.480 --> 00:18:21.819 head of state, but he won't cozy up to a guy 00:18:21.819 --> 00:18:24.940 who hurt a working class train driver. It violates 00:18:24.940 --> 00:18:27.859 his sense of class solidarity. Exactly. It shows 00:18:27.859 --> 00:18:30.900 a consistent internal logic that the media completely 00:18:30.900 --> 00:18:34.500 missed. They just saw chaos. Leiden saw a kind 00:18:34.500 --> 00:18:37.420 of integrity. So the pistols implode. Leiden 00:18:37.420 --> 00:18:39.900 is done with rock and roll. He's broke, by the 00:18:39.900 --> 00:18:41.779 way. He didn't walk away a millionaire. Management 00:18:41.779 --> 00:18:43.940 took most of the money. He could have just faded 00:18:43.940 --> 00:18:46.970 away. But instead, he pivots. And he pickets 00:18:46.970 --> 00:18:51.369 hard. He forms public image LTD, or PL. And this 00:18:51.369 --> 00:18:53.430 is where he really earns his stripes as a true 00:18:53.430 --> 00:18:56.390 artist, I think. If the pistols were about destroying 00:18:56.390 --> 00:18:58.769 the past, PL is about building a strained and 00:18:58.769 --> 00:19:01.589 unnerving future. He moved completely away from 00:19:01.589 --> 00:19:04.029 the three -chord thrash of punk. Can you describe 00:19:04.029 --> 00:19:05.990 the sound? Because it must have been shocking 00:19:05.990 --> 00:19:08.210 to the fans who just wanted anarchy in the UK 00:19:08.210 --> 00:19:10.750 part two. Oh, it was a total rejection of that. 00:19:10.809 --> 00:19:13.630 It was dub. It was heavily influenced by Jamaican 00:19:13.630 --> 00:19:17.549 reggae. It was... Bass heavy, slow, deep. It 00:19:17.549 --> 00:19:20.250 was music that vibrated your chest. The guitar 00:19:20.250 --> 00:19:22.109 wasn't playing riffs. It was making these metallic 00:19:22.109 --> 00:19:24.289 sheets of noise. It was open. It was spacious. 00:19:24.410 --> 00:19:27.650 And it was terrifying in a completely different, 00:19:27.710 --> 00:19:30.009 more psychological way. The tracks are darker, 00:19:30.049 --> 00:19:32.829 the more complex. The song Death Disco is about 00:19:32.829 --> 00:19:35.730 watching his mother die of cancer. That's a heavy, 00:19:35.789 --> 00:19:38.650 heavy topic for a pop song. And he sings it with 00:19:38.650 --> 00:19:41.930 such raw anguish. Public Image, their debut single, 00:19:42.130 --> 00:19:44.890 is a direct takedown of his own media persona. 00:19:44.950 --> 00:19:47.349 He's singing, you never listened to a word that 00:19:47.349 --> 00:19:49.269 I said. You only saw me for the clothes that 00:19:49.269 --> 00:19:51.890 I wore. He's critiquing his own audience for 00:19:51.890 --> 00:19:54.069 only caring about the image. He's deconstructing 00:19:54.069 --> 00:19:56.670 his own myth from day one. But there is one collaboration 00:19:56.670 --> 00:19:59.329 from this era that just blows my mind. 1984, 00:19:59.809 --> 00:20:02.890 World Destruction. Yes, a collaboration with 00:20:02.890 --> 00:20:05.690 the one and only Afrika Bambaataa. This is years, 00:20:05.849 --> 00:20:08.569 years before Run DMC and Aerosmith did Walk This 00:20:08.569 --> 00:20:10.849 Way. Leighton and Bambaataa basically invented 00:20:10.849 --> 00:20:13.240 rap rock on the spot. And they recorded it in 00:20:13.240 --> 00:20:15.460 four and a half hours. It just shows Layton's 00:20:15.460 --> 00:20:18.579 incredible musical curiosity. He was never a 00:20:18.579 --> 00:20:21.640 punk purist. He was a sound explorer. He loved 00:20:21.640 --> 00:20:24.740 reggae. He loved dub. And he respected what was 00:20:24.740 --> 00:20:27.000 happening in the early days of hip hop. He saw 00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:28.900 the connection between the punk rebellion in 00:20:28.900 --> 00:20:31.279 London and the hip hop rebellion in the Bronx. 00:20:31.559 --> 00:20:34.480 So PLL has this long, critically acclaimed run, 00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:38.890 then a hiatus in 1993. But then in 2009, Lydon 00:20:38.890 --> 00:20:41.369 decides to reform the band. But there's a pretty 00:20:41.369 --> 00:20:43.809 big problem. A financial one? No record label, 00:20:43.890 --> 00:20:46.549 no funding. So how does the godfather of punk, 00:20:46.789 --> 00:20:50.109 the anti -establishment icon, pay for his band's 00:20:50.109 --> 00:20:52.410 reunion? This is the moment that broke the brains 00:20:52.410 --> 00:20:55.109 of music critics everywhere. He stars in a series 00:20:55.109 --> 00:20:57.329 of British TV commercials for Country Life Butter. 00:20:57.569 --> 00:20:59.329 Okay, we have to talk about the elephant in the 00:20:59.329 --> 00:21:01.859 room. Or rather... The cow in the room. I have 00:21:01.859 --> 00:21:03.700 seen this ad. He's dressed in tweed, running 00:21:03.700 --> 00:21:05.720 around a field with cows, being very cheeky and 00:21:05.720 --> 00:21:07.920 saying, it's not about Great Britain, it's about 00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:11.019 grape butter. It is absolutely surreal. The backlash 00:21:11.019 --> 00:21:13.759 was nuclear. It was immediate. You had old punks 00:21:13.759 --> 00:21:15.700 claiming they were burning their records. The 00:21:15.700 --> 00:21:17.720 Guardian wrote endless think pieces about the 00:21:17.720 --> 00:21:20.640 death of integrity. Johnny Rotten is a shill 00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:25.380 for big dairy. He's gone soft. But was he? Or 00:21:25.380 --> 00:21:27.539 was this actually the most punk rock thing he 00:21:27.539 --> 00:21:30.099 could have possibly done in 2009? That's the 00:21:30.099 --> 00:21:32.339 provocative question, isn't it? Let's just look 00:21:32.339 --> 00:21:34.579 at the financials for a second. Payal had been 00:21:34.579 --> 00:21:37.519 dead for 17 years. Leighton wanted to tour. He 00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:39.859 wanted to record new music. But the record labels 00:21:39.859 --> 00:21:42.329 wouldn't touch him. He was seen as too difficult, 00:21:42.490 --> 00:21:45.470 too old, too commercially risky. So he was being 00:21:45.470 --> 00:21:47.569 creatively silenced by the industry. Exactly. 00:21:47.569 --> 00:21:50.509 He was being censored by capitalism. So he decides 00:21:50.509 --> 00:21:52.910 to exploit the system to defeat the system. He 00:21:52.910 --> 00:21:54.970 takes the butter money. And it was a massive 00:21:54.970 --> 00:21:57.809 check. And he doesn't go buy a mansion in Malibu. 00:21:57.809 --> 00:22:00.250 He doesn't buy a fleet of Ferraris. He buys a 00:22:00.250 --> 00:22:03.150 tour bus. He reforms the band. He hires the musicians 00:22:03.150 --> 00:22:05.809 he wants on his own terms. He books the studios. 00:22:05.890 --> 00:22:08.190 He records and releases the album. This is Payal 00:22:08.190 --> 00:22:10.470 on his own independent label, funded entirely 00:22:10.470 --> 00:22:12.910 by himself. So the Butter Company essentially 00:22:12.910 --> 00:22:15.849 became his patron. It's like the Midich's funding 00:22:15.849 --> 00:22:18.910 Michelangelo, except it's salted dairy funding 00:22:18.910 --> 00:22:21.549 post -punk noise. And he was completely transparent 00:22:21.549 --> 00:22:24.589 about it. He went on TV and said, I want to make 00:22:24.589 --> 00:22:26.509 music. They offered me the money. I'm spending 00:22:26.509 --> 00:22:29.630 it on the music. There's a strange purity to 00:22:29.630 --> 00:22:32.430 that transaction that I find fascinating. He 00:22:32.430 --> 00:22:35.529 called it an anarcho -capitalist move. He found 00:22:35.529 --> 00:22:38.049 a loophole. It really challenges our simplistic 00:22:38.049 --> 00:22:41.869 definition of selling out. Is it selling out 00:22:41.869 --> 00:22:44.170 if you use the corporation's money to make exactly 00:22:44.170 --> 00:22:46.089 the art you want to make without any compromise 00:22:46.089 --> 00:22:48.430 whatsoever? I would argue that not doing the 00:22:48.430 --> 00:22:50.289 ad and staying silent would have been the bigger 00:22:50.289 --> 00:22:52.509 sellout. He would have sold out his creativity 00:22:52.509 --> 00:22:55.509 for the sake of preserving his cool image from 00:22:55.509 --> 00:22:59.500 1977. Instead, he sacrificed the image to save 00:22:59.500 --> 00:23:01.779 the art. And it really launched this whole second 00:23:01.779 --> 00:23:04.480 phase of his career where he became this ubiquitous 00:23:04.480 --> 00:23:06.900 media personality. And not just the butter ads. 00:23:07.019 --> 00:23:09.660 He started appearing on reality TV. Oh, the lifts 00:23:09.660 --> 00:23:12.339 is amazing. It starts with Judge Judy in 1997. 00:23:12.819 --> 00:23:15.099 Wait, the anarchist was on Judge Judy. How did 00:23:15.099 --> 00:23:17.559 that happen? He appeared as a defendant. His 00:23:17.559 --> 00:23:19.680 former drummer from a post -pill project was 00:23:19.680 --> 00:23:22.240 suing him. And he won the case. He was articulate. 00:23:22.440 --> 00:23:24.980 He was sharp. And he completely dominated the 00:23:24.980 --> 00:23:27.279 courtroom. He treated the court with respect, 00:23:27.539 --> 00:23:30.279 but he absolutely refused to be bullied by the 00:23:30.279 --> 00:23:32.900 process. It's an incredible watch. And then there's 00:23:32.900 --> 00:23:35.880 I'm a celebrity. Get me out of here. In 2004. 00:23:36.220 --> 00:23:38.579 This is a show where celebrities live in the 00:23:38.579 --> 00:23:41.259 Australian jungle and eat bugs for public amusement. 00:23:41.500 --> 00:23:43.779 And true to form, on the very first night, he 00:23:43.779 --> 00:23:46.539 called the audience fucking cunts on live television 00:23:46.539 --> 00:23:48.740 for voting for him to do a challenge. Classic 00:23:48.740 --> 00:23:51.240 Leiden. The establishment must have had a meltdown. 00:23:51.440 --> 00:23:53.779 But here's the funny thing. The complaints were 00:23:53.779 --> 00:23:57.400 surprisingly low. Only 91 complaints to the regulator. 00:23:57.779 --> 00:24:00.180 People loved him on the show. He was charming. 00:24:00.220 --> 00:24:02.059 He was surprisingly helpful around the camp. 00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:05.000 He eventually walked off the show, but he proved 00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:07.599 he could still shock while being weirdly likable. 00:24:07.700 --> 00:24:11.119 Then he pivoted to nature shows. Yes. Megabugs, 00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:13.740 ghost ape, shark attack. Why nature shows? That 00:24:13.740 --> 00:24:17.289 seems so wholesome. So out of character. He's 00:24:17.289 --> 00:24:19.609 an enthusiast. He described himself not as an 00:24:19.609 --> 00:24:21.490 expert, but as someone who just loves learning. 00:24:21.650 --> 00:24:24.509 And you can see it. It humanized him. You see 00:24:24.509 --> 00:24:26.369 him getting genuinely excited about a spider, 00:24:26.430 --> 00:24:28.650 and you forget he's supposed to be this terrifying 00:24:28.650 --> 00:24:31.390 anarchist figure. It goes all the way back to 00:24:31.390 --> 00:24:33.829 his childhood curiosity, I think, the kid who 00:24:33.829 --> 00:24:36.109 had to relearn the world by observing it. And 00:24:36.109 --> 00:24:39.390 then the ultimate surreal moment, the masked 00:24:39.390 --> 00:24:43.160 singer. He did it in the U .S. in 2021 as Jester 00:24:43.160 --> 00:24:47.180 and then in the U .K. in 2026 as Yak. A yak. 00:24:47.420 --> 00:24:51.359 A yak. Why? Just why? I think partially for the 00:24:51.359 --> 00:24:53.079 money, which he's always open about, partially 00:24:53.079 --> 00:24:54.880 to keep his name out there so P .L. can tour. 00:24:55.200 --> 00:24:57.900 But also I think he genuinely enjoys the sheer 00:24:57.900 --> 00:25:01.119 absurdity of it. It's performance art. You want 00:25:01.119 --> 00:25:03.480 to put Johnny Rotten in a giant yak costume and 00:25:03.480 --> 00:25:05.900 have him sing Help Yourself? Fine. I'll be the 00:25:05.900 --> 00:25:08.880 best damn yak you've ever seen. It's a mockery 00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:10.880 of celebrity culture by participating in its 00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:13.039 most ridiculous form. It certainly keeps people 00:25:13.039 --> 00:25:15.339 guessing. But let's shift gears now to something 00:25:15.339 --> 00:25:18.920 a bit heavier, his politics. Because if you think 00:25:18.920 --> 00:25:21.160 you know John Lydon's politics, I guarantee you 00:25:21.160 --> 00:25:22.920 probably don't. And this is where people get 00:25:22.920 --> 00:25:24.960 really frustrated with him. This is where the 00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:27.099 paradox gets really sharp and uncomfortable for 00:25:27.099 --> 00:25:29.839 a lot of people. Everyone assumes, because of 00:25:29.839 --> 00:25:32.619 anarchy in the UK, that he is some kind of hard 00:25:32.619 --> 00:25:35.220 left anarchist. But he explicitly rejects that 00:25:35.220 --> 00:25:38.259 label. Repeatedly and for decades. He calls anarchy 00:25:38.259 --> 00:25:41.339 mind games for the middle class. He says if you 00:25:41.339 --> 00:25:43.779 remove the police and all structure, the weak 00:25:43.779 --> 00:25:46.339 just get eaten by the strong. It's not a utopia. 00:25:46.619 --> 00:25:49.759 He views himself as a pacifist by nature and 00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:52.099 has even said he admires Gandhi. Which is not 00:25:52.099 --> 00:25:54.700 what you expect. And came the American citizenship 00:25:54.700 --> 00:25:57.920 in 2013. Yes, he became a U .S. citizen. And 00:25:57.920 --> 00:26:00.259 the reason he gave was that he believed in Barack 00:26:00.259 --> 00:26:03.240 Obama. Specifically, he believed in Obamacare. 00:26:03.400 --> 00:26:05.680 He saw the potential for a health care system 00:26:05.680 --> 00:26:07.720 that cared for the working class and the sick. 00:26:07.740 --> 00:26:09.460 You have to remember his own childhood experience 00:26:09.460 --> 00:26:12.160 with the NHS. He wanted that for America. OK, 00:26:12.259 --> 00:26:15.200 so he's an Obama supporter. Case closed. He's 00:26:15.200 --> 00:26:18.960 a liberal. But wait. Then comes 2016. And the 00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:21.799 shift to Donald Trump. This confused and enraged 00:26:21.799 --> 00:26:24.059 a lot of people. Leighton started wearing a Make 00:26:24.059 --> 00:26:26.740 America Great Again shirt in interviews. How 00:26:26.740 --> 00:26:30.000 do you possibly reconcile Obama and Trump? They 00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:32.359 are polar opposites on almost every issue. To 00:26:32.359 --> 00:26:34.579 Leighton, they aren't that different in one very 00:26:34.579 --> 00:26:38.599 specific way. Disruption. He saw Trump as the 00:26:38.599 --> 00:26:41.880 sex pistol of politics. He called him a cat amongst 00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:44.779 the pigeons. He felt the political establishment 00:26:44.779 --> 00:26:47.700 on both the left and the right was stagnant and 00:26:47.700 --> 00:26:50.619 needed shaking up. He didn't necessarily align 00:26:50.619 --> 00:26:53.160 with every single policy, but he loved the disruption. 00:26:53.319 --> 00:26:55.980 He loved the chaos Trump caused in the system. 00:26:56.140 --> 00:26:57.640 It's the break through the window again, just 00:26:57.640 --> 00:27:00.960 on a geopolitical scale. Exactly. And he claimed 00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:04.119 that the left wing media had become the new establishment 00:27:04.119 --> 00:27:06.180 and didn't understand the working class anymore. 00:27:06.380 --> 00:27:08.559 And we saw the exact same pattern with Brexit 00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:10.839 in the UK. All right. The famous flip flop on 00:27:10.839 --> 00:27:13.740 that. Initially, he supported Remain. In interviews 00:27:13.740 --> 00:27:15.940 before the vote, he called leaving the EU insane 00:27:15.940 --> 00:27:19.019 and suicidal. But then after the vote, he switched. 00:27:19.220 --> 00:27:21.480 He started supporting Brexit and even praising 00:27:21.480 --> 00:27:24.059 figures like Nigel Farage. Why the change? Because 00:27:24.059 --> 00:27:26.400 he felt the working class had spoken and that 00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:28.500 the elites in London were trying to ignore the 00:27:28.500 --> 00:27:31.700 result or shame the voters. As a self -identified 00:27:31.700 --> 00:27:34.539 working class Londoner, he felt he had to stand 00:27:34.539 --> 00:27:36.980 with the voters, even if he had initially disagreed 00:27:36.980 --> 00:27:39.839 with the idea itself. So it seems his loyalty 00:27:39.839 --> 00:27:42.579 isn't to a consistent ideology, but to a class 00:27:42.579 --> 00:27:44.980 identity. Whatever the working class is doing, 00:27:45.140 --> 00:27:48.339 I'm with them, even if it completely contradicts 00:27:48.339 --> 00:27:50.859 what he said five minutes ago. And he's impartial 00:27:50.859 --> 00:27:53.200 in his controversial stances. It's not just about 00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:56.059 left or right. Take Israel. He played Tel Aviv 00:27:56.059 --> 00:27:58.500 with Powell despite huge pressure from the boycott, 00:27:58.559 --> 00:28:00.839 divestment, sanctions movement from artists like 00:28:00.839 --> 00:28:03.339 Elvis Costello. His argument there was interesting, 00:28:03.460 --> 00:28:05.720 though. He said he won't boycott a country unless 00:28:05.720 --> 00:28:08.880 he can see an Arab or Muslim country nearby with 00:28:08.880 --> 00:28:11.839 a functioning democracy. He claims he plays for 00:28:11.839 --> 00:28:14.619 the people, not for the government. Which is 00:28:14.619 --> 00:28:16.680 a consistent stance for him. You have to give 00:28:16.680 --> 00:28:19.160 him that. He hates institutions, but he seems 00:28:19.160 --> 00:28:21.920 to connect with individuals. But the most significant 00:28:21.920 --> 00:28:24.000 political moment of his career, in my opinion, 00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:27.160 wasn't about voting or borders at all. It was 00:28:27.160 --> 00:28:29.380 about Jimmy Savile. This is such a chilling story 00:28:29.380 --> 00:28:31.720 for our international listeners. Jimmy Savile 00:28:31.720 --> 00:28:34.599 was a beloved British TV personality for decades, 00:28:34.900 --> 00:28:37.960 a knight of the realm, a national treasure who 00:28:37.960 --> 00:28:41.220 raised millions for charity. But in 1978, decades 00:28:41.220 --> 00:28:43.440 before the truth finally came out after his death, 00:28:43.900 --> 00:28:46.079 Leiden went on BBC Radio and said something truly 00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:48.539 shocking. What does he say? He was being interviewed 00:28:48.539 --> 00:28:50.839 and he just went completely off script. He said, 00:28:50.940 --> 00:28:53.220 I'd like to kill Jimmy Savile. I think he's a 00:28:53.220 --> 00:28:55.720 hypocrite. I bet he's into all kinds of seediness. 00:28:56.269 --> 00:28:58.470 I know some rumors. Fine. He basically tried 00:28:58.470 --> 00:29:00.809 to out him as a child abuser on national radio. 00:29:01.049 --> 00:29:04.670 In 1978. And what did the BBC, his employer, 00:29:04.690 --> 00:29:06.990 do? They cut him off immediately. They edited 00:29:06.990 --> 00:29:09.089 it out of the broadcast replay. And according 00:29:09.089 --> 00:29:11.970 to Leiden, they effectively blacklisted him for 00:29:11.970 --> 00:29:14.750 years after that. He was right. He tried to warn 00:29:14.750 --> 00:29:16.430 the public about the monster in their midst, 00:29:16.490 --> 00:29:18.769 and he was the one who was silenced for it. That 00:29:18.769 --> 00:29:21.440 one incident. really cements his role as the 00:29:21.440 --> 00:29:23.859 uncomfortable truth teller, doesn't it? He was 00:29:23.859 --> 00:29:26.839 the rotten one, the foul -mouthed yob. Yet he 00:29:26.839 --> 00:29:28.839 was the only one willing to point out the actual 00:29:28.839 --> 00:29:31.599 rot hidden deep inside the establishment. It 00:29:31.599 --> 00:29:34.859 forces you to reevaluate his entire career. Was 00:29:34.859 --> 00:29:36.839 he just being difficult and contrary for the 00:29:36.839 --> 00:29:39.180 sake of it? Or was he seeing things that other 00:29:39.180 --> 00:29:41.799 people refused to acknowledge? He has a moral 00:29:41.799 --> 00:29:44.180 compass. It just doesn't point north like everyone 00:29:44.180 --> 00:29:46.440 else's. That brings us to the final and maybe 00:29:46.440 --> 00:29:49.579 most important piece of the puzzle. The man behind 00:29:49.579 --> 00:29:52.940 the stare. The personal life. We've talked about 00:29:52.940 --> 00:29:56.140 the anger, the politics, the butter. But at home, 00:29:56.240 --> 00:29:59.220 John Lydon was a deeply devoted partner. This 00:29:59.220 --> 00:30:01.460 is the most touching part of his story, I think, 00:30:01.480 --> 00:30:03.519 and the part that really shatters the Johnny 00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:06.259 Rotten myth for good. He met Nora Forster in 00:30:06.259 --> 00:30:08.900 the mid -70s. She was a German publishing heiress, 00:30:08.900 --> 00:30:11.599 and she was 14 years older than him. An older 00:30:11.599 --> 00:30:14.759 woman. Wealthy. The tabloids must have had a 00:30:14.759 --> 00:30:17.099 field day. People probably thought he was a gold 00:30:17.099 --> 00:30:19.480 digger. I'm sure they did, but they were together 00:30:19.480 --> 00:30:22.900 for 44 years until her death. In the world of 00:30:22.900 --> 00:30:25.940 rock and roll, that is an eternity. And it wasn't 00:30:25.940 --> 00:30:28.079 just some marriage of convenience. They took 00:30:28.079 --> 00:30:30.759 in Noor's grandchildren, the twin sons of Ari, 00:30:30.940 --> 00:30:33.440 up from the punk band The Slits, because Ari 00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:35.859 couldn't cope at the time. So Leighton, the man 00:30:35.859 --> 00:30:38.380 who sang about abortion and anarchy, became a 00:30:38.380 --> 00:30:41.049 grandfather figure raising teenage boys. He said, 00:30:41.109 --> 00:30:43.190 they gave us hell, but I loved having kids around. 00:30:43.690 --> 00:30:46.329 That domesticity is so profoundly unexpected. 00:30:47.029 --> 00:30:49.569 But the real test of their bond came in the later 00:30:49.569 --> 00:30:52.630 years. Nora developed Alzheimer's. And Leiden 00:30:52.630 --> 00:30:55.190 became her full -time carer. He refused to put 00:30:55.190 --> 00:30:57.190 her in a care home. He said, I made a commitment. 00:30:57.470 --> 00:31:00.150 He spoke about it in interviews with Such Tenderness 00:31:00.150 --> 00:31:02.890 and Love. He said, the real person is still there. 00:31:03.049 --> 00:31:06.200 A bit of love goes a long way. He dedicated his 00:31:06.200 --> 00:31:08.440 entire life in those final years to making her 00:31:08.440 --> 00:31:10.779 comfortable, to keeping her memories alive as 00:31:10.779 --> 00:31:14.160 best he could. This all culminated in 2023, with 00:31:14.160 --> 00:31:16.079 Peele's attempt to enter the Eurovision Song 00:31:16.079 --> 00:31:19.160 Contest for Ireland. Yes, they submitted a song 00:31:19.160 --> 00:31:22.089 called Hawaii. And it wasn't a punk anthem. It 00:31:22.089 --> 00:31:24.609 wasn't angry or political. It was a gentle, beautiful, 00:31:24.869 --> 00:31:27.950 heartbreaking love song dedicated to Nora. It 00:31:27.950 --> 00:31:29.769 was about a happy memory they shared on holiday 00:31:29.769 --> 00:31:32.230 in Hawaii. And it was his attempt to capture 00:31:32.230 --> 00:31:34.690 that one perfect memory for her before it faded 00:31:34.690 --> 00:31:36.750 away completely. It didn't win the selection 00:31:36.750 --> 00:31:38.529 process, but I don't think that was ever the 00:31:38.529 --> 00:31:40.930 point. It was this incredibly public declaration 00:31:40.930 --> 00:31:43.769 of love from a man who spent his life sneering 00:31:43.769 --> 00:31:46.410 at sentimentality. It showed a vulnerability 00:31:46.410 --> 00:31:48.289 that we had never, ever seen from him before. 00:31:48.759 --> 00:31:52.220 Nora passed away in April 2023, and he was, by 00:31:52.220 --> 00:31:54.819 all accounts, completely devastated. It showed 00:31:54.819 --> 00:31:56.940 that underneath all that armor he built in that 00:31:56.940 --> 00:31:59.920 hospital ward at age seven, there was a massive 00:31:59.920 --> 00:32:02.980 and ultimately very human heart. And we should 00:32:02.980 --> 00:32:05.359 also mention his best friend, his closest confidant, 00:32:05.500 --> 00:32:08.660 John Rambo Stevens. Rambo, his childhood friend 00:32:08.660 --> 00:32:11.579 from Finsbury Park. He was Lydon's manager, his 00:32:11.579 --> 00:32:14.299 minder, his head of security for over 50 years. 00:32:14.619 --> 00:32:17.200 That loyalty to his wife for over four decades, 00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:19.859 to his childhood friend for over five sets, it 00:32:19.859 --> 00:32:22.240 stands in such stark contrast to the betrayal 00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:25.440 and chaos narrative of the Sex Pistols. He keeps 00:32:25.440 --> 00:32:27.759 his circle very tight and he protects them fiercely. 00:32:28.039 --> 00:32:30.519 So let's try to synthesize all of this. We started 00:32:30.519 --> 00:32:33.269 with the paradox. The anarchist butter salesman. 00:32:33.589 --> 00:32:36.210 The punk who loves the queen. The Trump supporter 00:32:36.210 --> 00:32:39.309 who became a citizen for Obama. But after unpacking 00:32:39.309 --> 00:32:41.190 it all, does it start to make a strange kind 00:32:41.190 --> 00:32:44.509 of sense? I think it does. Ledon's entire career 00:32:44.509 --> 00:32:47.569 is defined by uncomfortable truths. He called 00:32:47.569 --> 00:32:49.849 out Jimmy Savile when it was professionally dangerous 00:32:49.849 --> 00:32:52.890 to do so. He criticized the punk movement while 00:32:52.890 --> 00:32:54.589 he was leading it because he saw it becoming 00:32:54.589 --> 00:32:57.170 just another uniform. He supported political 00:32:57.170 --> 00:32:59.750 figures that alienated his original fan base 00:32:59.750 --> 00:33:02.529 because he values shaking things up over any 00:33:02.529 --> 00:33:05.630 kind of ideological purity. He is a contrarian, 00:33:05.630 --> 00:33:08.789 but a principled one. His one principle seems 00:33:08.789 --> 00:33:11.839 to be that he refuses to be owned. by a record 00:33:11.839 --> 00:33:14.539 label, by a political party, or even by his own 00:33:14.539 --> 00:33:16.599 fans' expectations of who Johnny Rotten should 00:33:16.599 --> 00:33:20.160 be. Exactly. He realized early on, probably back 00:33:20.160 --> 00:33:22.400 in that hospital bed at age seven, that the world 00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:24.660 is chaotic and often unfair. So you might as 00:33:24.660 --> 00:33:26.920 well construct your own reality, defend the few 00:33:26.920 --> 00:33:29.019 people you love with everything you have, and 00:33:29.019 --> 00:33:30.599 never, ever let them tell you who you are supposed 00:33:30.599 --> 00:33:33.480 to be. Light on once famously said, it's fun 00:33:33.480 --> 00:33:36.670 being scum. But looking at his life, the whistleblowing, 00:33:36.710 --> 00:33:39.509 the caregiving, the artistic integrity, the fierce 00:33:39.509 --> 00:33:42.309 loyalty, I have to wonder, was the scum label 00:33:42.309 --> 00:33:44.750 just a mirror he held up to society to show them 00:33:44.750 --> 00:33:47.130 their own prejudices? That is the ultimate question, 00:33:47.230 --> 00:33:50.569 isn't it? If he is rotten, then what does that 00:33:50.569 --> 00:33:54.789 make the society that created him and then condemned 00:33:54.789 --> 00:33:57.009 him for telling the truth? On that provocative 00:33:57.009 --> 00:33:59.069 thought, we're going to wrap up. If you want 00:33:59.069 --> 00:34:01.220 to understand the man yourself. Don't just look 00:34:01.220 --> 00:34:02.940 at the pictures in the history books. Listen 00:34:02.940 --> 00:34:05.900 to Metalbox. Read his book, No Irish, No Blacks, 00:34:05.900 --> 00:34:08.239 No Dogs. Decide for yourself. Just don't expect 00:34:08.239 --> 00:34:11.139 him to care what you decide. Very true. Thanks 00:34:11.139 --> 00:34:12.739 for diving in with us. We'll see you on the next 00:34:12.739 --> 00:34:12.860 one.