WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.540 Welcome back to the Deep Dive. Today we are looking 00:00:02.540 --> 00:00:05.419 at a figure who I think just defies pretty much 00:00:05.419 --> 00:00:07.500 every box you try to put him in. Oh, completely. 00:00:07.839 --> 00:00:10.859 We are talking about Trent Reznor. And if your 00:00:10.859 --> 00:00:13.060 first thought is just, oh, the guy from Nine 00:00:13.060 --> 00:00:15.439 Inch Nails, the industrial rock guy who screams 00:00:15.439 --> 00:00:19.280 in the dark, you are missing about 80 % of the 00:00:19.280 --> 00:00:21.780 picture. At least 80%, yeah. I'd argue that the 00:00:21.780 --> 00:00:24.140 industrial rock guy is just one distinct era 00:00:24.140 --> 00:00:28.010 in a life that has been more about... Well, architecture 00:00:28.010 --> 00:00:30.829 than just songwriting. Architecture is a great 00:00:30.829 --> 00:00:32.789 word for it. It really is. Because we're talking 00:00:32.789 --> 00:00:34.729 about a guy who went from being the absolute 00:00:34.729 --> 00:00:37.829 face of 90s angst. I mean, literally covered 00:00:37.829 --> 00:00:42.109 in mud at Woodstock 94 to wearing a tuxedo and 00:00:42.109 --> 00:00:44.710 accepting Academy Awards for scoring Pixar movies. 00:00:44.729 --> 00:00:47.119 Yeah. That is not a normal career path. It's 00:00:47.119 --> 00:00:49.719 one of those fascinating trajectories in modern 00:00:49.719 --> 00:00:51.979 cultural history, not just music history. I mean, 00:00:52.000 --> 00:00:53.740 think about it. Most artists from that specific, 00:00:53.960 --> 00:00:57.020 you know, gloomy, aggressive 90s era either. 00:00:57.200 --> 00:00:59.119 Burned out. They burned out. They faded away. 00:00:59.200 --> 00:01:01.079 Or they're currently playing the state fair circuit. 00:01:01.640 --> 00:01:04.019 Reznor did something completely different. He 00:01:04.019 --> 00:01:06.459 pivoted. And he didn't just pip it. He, like, 00:01:06.480 --> 00:01:09.239 ascended. So what we have in front of us today 00:01:09.239 --> 00:01:12.319 is a massive stack of sources. We've got biographies, 00:01:12.340 --> 00:01:15.439 discographies, industry reports. even court documents, 00:01:15.719 --> 00:01:19.299 that cover his career from way back in 1982 all 00:01:19.299 --> 00:01:20.959 the way up to the present day. We're going to 00:01:20.959 --> 00:01:22.840 look at the music, obviously. That's the core 00:01:22.840 --> 00:01:24.379 of it. But we're also going to look at the business 00:01:24.379 --> 00:01:27.319 side of things. Because Trent Reznor is arguably 00:01:27.319 --> 00:01:31.500 as much of a tech visionary and a disruptor as 00:01:31.500 --> 00:01:34.390 he is a musician. So our mission today is to 00:01:34.390 --> 00:01:37.790 really unpack that journey. How does a kid from 00:01:37.790 --> 00:01:40.109 small town USA, and I mean that literally we're 00:01:40.109 --> 00:01:42.310 talking about cornfields, go from waxing studio 00:01:42.310 --> 00:01:44.989 floors to becoming a tech executive and a film 00:01:44.989 --> 00:01:47.269 score titan? And how did he do it? How did he 00:01:47.269 --> 00:01:49.349 manage to reinvent himself so many times without 00:01:49.349 --> 00:01:52.349 losing that specific, that intensity? That's 00:01:52.349 --> 00:01:54.329 the word. The intensity. I think it really comes 00:01:54.329 --> 00:01:55.989 down to a few core themes. You see them over 00:01:55.989 --> 00:02:00.920 and over. Control, isolation, and this relentless, 00:02:01.000 --> 00:02:03.400 almost obsessive drive to escape boundaries. 00:02:03.680 --> 00:02:05.480 Whether those are geographical boundaries, musical 00:02:05.480 --> 00:02:07.700 ones. Or corporate ones, yeah, absolutely. Well, 00:02:07.780 --> 00:02:09.439 let's start at the beginning then, the geography 00:02:09.439 --> 00:02:12.259 part. Because I think people assume Trent Reznor 00:02:12.259 --> 00:02:15.360 just spawned, fully formed in some dark warehouse 00:02:15.360 --> 00:02:17.659 in Berlin or something. Right, like he's assembled 00:02:17.659 --> 00:02:20.699 in a factory. No, he's actually from Pennsylvania. 00:02:21.120 --> 00:02:23.840 Deep in Pennsylvania. Specifically Newcastle, 00:02:23.900 --> 00:02:27.500 born in 1965. But he was raised in a town called 00:02:27.500 --> 00:02:31.580 Mercer. And we really need to linger on Mercer 00:02:31.580 --> 00:02:33.580 for a second because the way he describes it 00:02:33.580 --> 00:02:36.580 is absolutely vital to understanding everything 00:02:36.580 --> 00:02:38.860 that comes later. What did he say? He calls it 00:02:38.860 --> 00:02:41.879 a life of cornfields. Cornfields. Just endless 00:02:41.879 --> 00:02:44.599 rows of nothing. Exactly. He said in an interview 00:02:44.599 --> 00:02:47.180 that there was, and I'm quoting here, nothing 00:02:47.180 --> 00:02:50.500 going on. You have to put yourself in the context 00:02:50.500 --> 00:02:54.300 of the 1970s and early 80s. No internet. No internet, 00:02:54.439 --> 00:02:57.280 no Spotify, no social media. If you live in a 00:02:57.280 --> 00:02:59.599 cornfield town, you are effectively cut off from 00:02:59.599 --> 00:03:02.539 the cultural vein of the world. It's not like 00:03:02.539 --> 00:03:04.780 today where you can find your tribe online. It's 00:03:04.780 --> 00:03:06.580 total isolation. And it wasn't just geographical 00:03:06.580 --> 00:03:09.099 isolation. There was a family situation that 00:03:09.099 --> 00:03:12.180 compounded it. A huge one. His parents divorced 00:03:12.180 --> 00:03:14.379 when he was six years old, which is a key detail. 00:03:15.020 --> 00:03:17.800 His younger sister, Tara, stayed with their mother, 00:03:17.919 --> 00:03:20.319 but Trent was sent to live with his maternal 00:03:20.319 --> 00:03:23.500 grandparents. So at six years old, your whole 00:03:23.500 --> 00:03:25.800 world breaks apart. You're separated from your 00:03:25.800 --> 00:03:29.319 parents, from your sister. That has to be incredibly 00:03:29.319 --> 00:03:32.800 isolating. Absolutely. He's described his childhood 00:03:32.800 --> 00:03:35.139 as very sheltered because of that environment. 00:03:35.460 --> 00:03:37.759 His grandparents were loving, by all accounts, 00:03:37.939 --> 00:03:41.090 but it was a quiet, contained world. He said 00:03:41.090 --> 00:03:43.550 his life experience basically came from watching 00:03:43.550 --> 00:03:46.289 movies, watching TV, and reading books. So he's 00:03:46.289 --> 00:03:48.349 living vicariously. He's living through media. 00:03:48.449 --> 00:03:50.469 He was looking at these magazines, you know, 00:03:50.469 --> 00:03:52.889 probably Rolling Stone or Cream, and seeing people 00:03:52.889 --> 00:03:55.069 with these creative careers and interesting lives. 00:03:55.289 --> 00:03:58.030 And he said, quote, none of that happened where 00:03:58.030 --> 00:04:00.469 I was. You're almost taught to realize it's not 00:04:00.469 --> 00:04:03.469 for you. Wow. That is a feeling I think a lot 00:04:03.469 --> 00:04:05.650 of creative people from small towns can relate 00:04:05.650 --> 00:04:07.930 to, that sense that real life is happening somewhere 00:04:07.930 --> 00:04:10.710 else, in New York or London or L .A., and you're 00:04:10.710 --> 00:04:13.310 just stuck watching it on a screen. It creates 00:04:13.310 --> 00:04:16.310 a hunger, a real desperate need to break out. 00:04:16.550 --> 00:04:20.470 For Reznor, that isolation fueled a desire to 00:04:20.470 --> 00:04:23.810 escape. But here's the really surprising part, 00:04:23.889 --> 00:04:26.329 especially considering the aggressive industrial 00:04:26.329 --> 00:04:29.279 sound he became famous for. Okay. You might expect 00:04:29.279 --> 00:04:32.620 his teenage years were full of, you know, delinquency, 00:04:32.639 --> 00:04:34.540 setting fires, that kind of thing. Right. The 00:04:34.540 --> 00:04:37.839 typical bad boy origin story. But he wasn't that 00:04:37.839 --> 00:04:40.459 at all. Not even close. He was a classic band 00:04:40.459 --> 00:04:42.939 kid. This is my favorite fact in the whole stack. 00:04:43.019 --> 00:04:44.500 And I just want to make sure the listener really 00:04:44.500 --> 00:04:46.720 visualizes this for a second. Amazing. Trent 00:04:46.720 --> 00:04:49.160 Reznor, the Prince of Darkness, the guy who wrote 00:04:49.160 --> 00:04:51.959 Head Like a Hole, played the tuba. The tuba. 00:04:52.279 --> 00:04:55.259 And the tenor saxophone. He was in the jazz band 00:04:55.259 --> 00:04:57.360 and the marching band at Mercer Area Junior Senior 00:04:57.360 --> 00:05:00.019 High School. And he wasn't just some kid sitting 00:05:00.019 --> 00:05:02.019 in the back holding the instrument. He was good. 00:05:02.220 --> 00:05:05.079 He was dedicated. And a theater kid too. A huge 00:05:05.079 --> 00:05:08.480 theater kid. He was voted best in drama by his 00:05:08.480 --> 00:05:12.139 classmates. He played Judas in Jesus Christ Superstar. 00:05:12.759 --> 00:05:15.519 Which, if you think about his later vocal delivery 00:05:15.519 --> 00:05:17.879 and the themes of Betrayal. That's actually perfect 00:05:17.879 --> 00:05:21.000 casting. It's perfect casting. And he also played 00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:23.759 Professor Harold Hill in The Music Man. Yeah, 00:05:23.779 --> 00:05:27.199 gut treble, right here in Mercer City. It just 00:05:27.199 --> 00:05:29.819 completely disrupts the narrative of the brooding 00:05:29.819 --> 00:05:33.000 artist. His former band director, a guy named 00:05:33.000 --> 00:05:36.379 Dr. Hendry, actually remembered him as very upbeat 00:05:36.379 --> 00:05:38.920 and friendly. Upbeat and friendly. It just goes 00:05:38.920 --> 00:05:42.019 to show that the persona we see on stage is a 00:05:42.019 --> 00:05:43.920 construct, or at least a specific channel for 00:05:43.920 --> 00:05:45.939 certain emotions, not his entire personality. 00:05:46.439 --> 00:05:49.540 But musically, this band kid background is so 00:05:49.540 --> 00:05:52.139 crucial. Why? It means he understands theory. 00:05:52.699 --> 00:05:55.240 He understands composition. He can read music. 00:05:55.420 --> 00:05:57.480 He's not just some guy banging on trash cans 00:05:57.480 --> 00:06:00.319 and making noise. He knows how music works from 00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:02.959 the ground up. He has the formal training. That 00:06:02.959 --> 00:06:04.800 makes so much sense. Industrial music, for all 00:06:04.800 --> 00:06:07.100 its chaos, is very structured. It's often machine 00:06:07.100 --> 00:06:08.860 -like on a grid. If you have a marching band 00:06:08.860 --> 00:06:10.800 background, you understand that kind of grid 00:06:10.800 --> 00:06:13.899 -like precision. Precisely. But the spark, the 00:06:13.899 --> 00:06:16.180 moment he knew he wanted to apply all that discipline 00:06:16.180 --> 00:06:19.120 to rock and roll, that came in 1976. He went 00:06:19.120 --> 00:06:21.120 to his very first concert. Okay, so who did he 00:06:21.120 --> 00:06:24.939 see? The Velvet Underground. Black Sabbath. Something 00:06:24.939 --> 00:06:28.500 dark and heavy. The Eagles. The Eagles. As in 00:06:28.500 --> 00:06:32.120 Hotel California. Peaceful, easy -feeling Eagles. 00:06:32.300 --> 00:06:36.019 The very same. That is the least industrial band 00:06:36.019 --> 00:06:38.879 I can possibly imagine. It is. But you have to 00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:40.660 see it through the eyes of an 11 -year -old kid 00:06:40.660 --> 00:06:43.439 from Mercer, Pennsylvania. It wasn't about the 00:06:43.439 --> 00:06:46.519 genre. It was about the scale. It was the spectacle. 00:06:46.990 --> 00:06:49.790 He said the excitement of that night just struck 00:06:49.790 --> 00:06:52.310 a chord. He looked at that massive stage, the 00:06:52.310 --> 00:06:54.389 lights, the adoration of the crowd, and he thought, 00:06:54.470 --> 00:06:57.250 someday I'd love to be up there. So it wasn't 00:06:57.250 --> 00:06:59.350 about a specific sound at that point. It was 00:06:59.350 --> 00:07:02.009 about the platform. It was the escape vehicle. 00:07:02.329 --> 00:07:04.269 It was the escape vehicle. So fast forward. Yeah. 00:07:04.370 --> 00:07:07.009 He graduates high school in 83. He heads to Allegheny 00:07:07.009 --> 00:07:09.449 College to study computer engineering. Which, 00:07:09.529 --> 00:07:11.689 again, tracks perfectly with his later obsession 00:07:11.689 --> 00:07:14.250 with technology and synthesizers. Totally. But 00:07:14.250 --> 00:07:16.930 he drops out after a year. The cornfields are 00:07:16.930 --> 00:07:18.970 still too close. He's got to get to a real city. 00:07:19.089 --> 00:07:21.149 So he moves to Cleveland. He moves to Cleveland. 00:07:21.810 --> 00:07:24.790 And this is where the hustle really begins. We 00:07:24.790 --> 00:07:26.829 need to talk about the Cleveland scene in the 00:07:26.829 --> 00:07:28.930 mid-'80s because it wasn't exactly New York or 00:07:28.930 --> 00:07:32.810 London, but it had a pulse. It had a scene. And 00:07:32.810 --> 00:07:35.370 Reznor dives right in. He joins a string of bands. 00:07:35.870 --> 00:07:39.350 Option 30, The Innocent Exotic Birds. Yep. These 00:07:39.350 --> 00:07:41.709 all sound like very 80s new wave band names, 00:07:41.810 --> 00:07:43.629 don't they? Very synth -pop. You can just picture 00:07:43.629 --> 00:07:45.850 the haircuts. And they were. Very synth -pop. 00:07:45.990 --> 00:07:47.970 He was a keyboard player for hire, basically. 00:07:48.550 --> 00:07:51.850 And here's a fun little anecdote for you movie 00:07:51.850 --> 00:07:56.129 buffs out there. During this period, he actually 00:07:56.129 --> 00:07:59.069 appeared in a Michael J. Fox movie. Wait, really? 00:07:59.480 --> 00:08:02.379 A blockbuster. Not quite a blockbuster. The film 00:08:02.379 --> 00:08:05.160 was Light of Day from 1987. It starred Michael 00:08:05.160 --> 00:08:07.300 J. Fox and Joan Jett as rock and roll siblings. 00:08:08.019 --> 00:08:10.040 Reznor is in a fictional band in the movie called 00:08:10.040 --> 00:08:12.870 The Problems. The problems. I love it. He's in 00:08:12.870 --> 00:08:14.810 the background playing keyboards. It's a real 00:08:14.810 --> 00:08:16.529 blink and you'll miss it moment. He's got this 00:08:16.529 --> 00:08:19.350 goofy 80s hair, but it just shows he was grinding. 00:08:19.370 --> 00:08:21.290 He was taking whatever gig he could get to be 00:08:21.290 --> 00:08:23.009 near the industry. But he wasn't just playing 00:08:23.009 --> 00:08:25.009 keyboards in fictional dance, right? He had to 00:08:25.009 --> 00:08:27.170 pay the rent. And this is the crucial part. He 00:08:27.170 --> 00:08:29.449 got a job at Right Track Studio in Cleveland. 00:08:29.870 --> 00:08:31.949 Now, usually when you hear musician gets a job 00:08:31.949 --> 00:08:33.830 at studio, you think, okay, producer or session 00:08:33.830 --> 00:08:36.570 player, something glamorous. Yeah. Reznor was 00:08:36.570 --> 00:08:41.600 an assistant engineer and... A janitor. A janitor. 00:08:41.779 --> 00:08:43.759 He cleaned the toilets and he waxed the floors. 00:08:43.940 --> 00:08:45.960 I want to pause on this because the janitor moment 00:08:45.960 --> 00:08:48.899 is often treated as just a fun piece of trivia, 00:08:48.980 --> 00:08:51.120 but I think it's actually the most important 00:08:51.120 --> 00:08:54.080 strategic move of his entire early life. I agree 00:08:54.080 --> 00:08:55.899 completely. Right? You have to understand the 00:08:55.899 --> 00:08:58.980 economics of recording music in 1988 versus today. 00:08:59.080 --> 00:09:01.240 It's a different planet. Oh, totally. Today, 00:09:01.419 --> 00:09:04.000 you can record a Grammy -winning album on a laptop 00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:06.820 in your bedroom. The barrier to entry is basically 00:09:06.820 --> 00:09:09.879 zero. Right. You buy Logic Pro for $200 and a 00:09:09.879 --> 00:09:11.759 decent microphone, and you're good to go. Not 00:09:11.759 --> 00:09:14.919 in 1988. In 1988, to make a record that sounded 00:09:14.919 --> 00:09:17.980 professional, you needed a massive mixing console 00:09:17.980 --> 00:09:20.860 that cost as much as a house. You needed 2 -inch 00:09:20.860 --> 00:09:23.299 tape, which cost hundreds of dollars per reel. 00:09:23.460 --> 00:09:26.299 You needed racks and racks of outboard gear compressors, 00:09:26.299 --> 00:09:29.639 reverbs, delays. We are talking about hundreds 00:09:29.639 --> 00:09:32.000 of thousands of dollars of equipment. And the 00:09:32.000 --> 00:09:35.240 studio time itself cost, what, $100 an hour? 00:09:35.539 --> 00:09:38.899 $200? Easily. Yeah. Which, adjusted for inflation, 00:09:39.139 --> 00:09:42.539 is like $400 or $500 an hour today. A kid from 00:09:42.539 --> 00:09:45.200 Mercer with no money cannot afford that. It's 00:09:45.200 --> 00:09:47.940 an impossible dream. So taking the janitor job 00:09:47.940 --> 00:09:50.360 wasn't just about paying the bills. It was about 00:09:50.360 --> 00:09:54.019 proximity. It was about access. The studio owner, 00:09:54.179 --> 00:09:56.519 a man named Bart Koester, said something very 00:09:56.519 --> 00:09:58.899 telling in an interview. He said, when that guy 00:09:58.899 --> 00:10:01.529 waxed the floor, it looked great. Of course he 00:10:01.529 --> 00:10:04.190 did. Even when he was cleaning toilets, Reznor 00:10:04.190 --> 00:10:06.350 was a perfectionist. He had this intense focus. 00:10:06.529 --> 00:10:09.289 And because of that work ethic, Coaster cut him 00:10:09.289 --> 00:10:11.570 a deal. The golden ticket. He told Reznor he 00:10:11.570 --> 00:10:14.549 could use the studio during downtime, which basically 00:10:14.549 --> 00:10:16.169 meant the middle of the night when no paying 00:10:16.169 --> 00:10:18.590 clients were there, to record his own demos for 00:10:18.590 --> 00:10:20.730 free. He just had to pay for the minor wear and 00:10:20.730 --> 00:10:23.149 tear on the tape heads. So while the entire city 00:10:23.149 --> 00:10:25.860 of Cleveland is sleeping, Trent Reznor is in 00:10:25.860 --> 00:10:28.860 this high end professional recording studio all 00:10:28.860 --> 00:10:31.700 alone, teaching himself how to use all this gear 00:10:31.700 --> 00:10:34.620 that he could never, ever afford to rent. That 00:10:34.620 --> 00:10:37.500 is the genesis of Nine Inch Nails. It's the isolation 00:10:37.500 --> 00:10:39.940 of Mercer, but now it's been transferred to a 00:10:39.940 --> 00:10:43.740 dark studio in Cleveland at 3 a .m. It's just 00:10:43.740 --> 00:10:45.700 him and the machines. And this leads us directly 00:10:45.700 --> 00:10:47.759 to the architecture of the band, as you put it, 00:10:47.799 --> 00:10:50.539 because Nine Inch Nails sounds like a group. 00:10:50.559 --> 00:10:52.360 It sounds like four or five guys in a garage. 00:10:53.120 --> 00:10:56.019 But it wasn't. No, not at all. Reznor ran into 00:10:56.019 --> 00:10:58.940 a problem very early on. He couldn't find a band 00:10:58.940 --> 00:11:01.419 in Cleveland that could play the songs the way 00:11:01.419 --> 00:11:03.519 he heard them in his head. He said that he felt 00:11:03.519 --> 00:11:05.720 other musicians diluted the vision. They couldn't 00:11:05.720 --> 00:11:07.700 articulate what he wanted. So he pulled a Prince. 00:11:07.940 --> 00:11:10.320 He pulled a Prince. He decided to play everything 00:11:10.320 --> 00:11:13.720 himself. Keyboards, guitars, bass, programming, 00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:17.500 basically everything except the drums. He realized 00:11:17.500 --> 00:11:20.120 that if he wanted total control over the sound, 00:11:20.279 --> 00:11:23.100 he had to become the entire band. Which is a 00:11:23.100 --> 00:11:25.519 massive undertaking. I mean, Prince was a once 00:11:25.519 --> 00:11:27.440 -in -a -generation virtuoso player. He could 00:11:27.440 --> 00:11:30.399 pick up any instrument and just shred. Was Reznor 00:11:30.399 --> 00:11:32.919 on that same level as a pure instrumentalist? 00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:35.240 That's a really good distinction to make. Prince 00:11:35.240 --> 00:11:38.379 was pure feel. He was a natural, a virtuoso performer. 00:11:39.159 --> 00:11:43.360 Reznor was more of a tech wizard. A sonic architect. 00:11:43.679 --> 00:11:45.899 He wasn't necessarily the best guitarist in the 00:11:45.899 --> 00:11:48.320 world, but he knew how to process that guitar 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:50.700 sound to make it do exactly what he wanted. He 00:11:50.700 --> 00:11:53.340 was building a soundscape, not just jamming. 00:11:53.399 --> 00:11:56.220 So Pretty Hate Machine drops in 1989. This is 00:11:56.220 --> 00:11:58.740 the fruit of all those late night janitorial 00:11:58.740 --> 00:12:01.600 sessions. And it's a hit, right? It was a moderate 00:12:01.600 --> 00:12:03.820 success commercially at first, but in the underground, 00:12:03.960 --> 00:12:06.919 it's massive. It was a slow burn that just kept 00:12:06.919 --> 00:12:08.860 selling. It eventually went triple platinum. 00:12:08.980 --> 00:12:11.200 Why did it connect so strongly? It connected 00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:13.500 because it bridged two worlds that didn't usually 00:12:13.500 --> 00:12:16.500 mix. It had the aggressive clanking percussion 00:12:16.500 --> 00:12:19.080 of industrial music, you know, bands like Skinny 00:12:19.080 --> 00:12:21.740 Puppy or Ministry. But it had these undeniable 00:12:21.740 --> 00:12:24.419 pop hooks, these incredibly kecky choruses. Head 00:12:24.419 --> 00:12:26.500 Like a Hole is a catchy song. You can absolutely 00:12:26.500 --> 00:12:29.279 hum it. Exactly. It's industrial music you can 00:12:29.279 --> 00:12:32.840 dance to. And the lyrics were pure, uncut teenage 00:12:32.840 --> 00:12:36.019 diary angst. I'd rather die than give you control. 00:12:36.740 --> 00:12:39.379 That line resonated with alienated kids everywhere. 00:12:39.840 --> 00:12:42.379 But with success came the one thing Trent Reznor 00:12:42.379 --> 00:12:45.419 hates most in the world. Interference. Interference. 00:12:45.940 --> 00:12:49.759 The label got involved. TVT Records. They saw 00:12:49.759 --> 00:12:51.679 Pretty Hate Machine selling and they said, great, 00:12:51.879 --> 00:12:53.679 give us another one just like that, but make 00:12:53.679 --> 00:12:56.659 it a plop hit. Make it for the radio. They essentially 00:12:56.659 --> 00:12:59.320 wanted him to be a synth pop star. And knowing 00:12:59.320 --> 00:13:01.820 what we know about Reznor now, the guy who wouldn't 00:13:01.820 --> 00:13:04.320 compromise on how to wax a floor, I assume he 00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:06.679 just loved being told to make a pop album. He 00:13:06.679 --> 00:13:09.200 hated it. He felt completely stifled. He felt 00:13:09.200 --> 00:13:10.820 they were treating him like a cash cow rather 00:13:10.820 --> 00:13:13.799 than an artist. So in a move that really foreshadows 00:13:13.799 --> 00:13:16.220 all his future legal battles, he went to war. 00:13:16.659 --> 00:13:19.200 To avoid their interference, he actually started 00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:21.379 recording his next project under pseudonyms. 00:13:21.460 --> 00:13:23.539 He went underground to make his own music while 00:13:23.539 --> 00:13:26.279 signed to a label. He did. He recorded what would 00:13:26.279 --> 00:13:29.399 become the Broken EP in secret in various studios, 00:13:29.600 --> 00:13:32.720 paying for it himself. And the sound of Broken. 00:13:33.179 --> 00:13:35.279 I mean, if Pretty Hate Machine was a bridge between 00:13:35.279 --> 00:13:38.200 pop and industrial, Broken was him dousing that 00:13:38.200 --> 00:13:40.639 bridge in gasoline and lighting a match. That's, 00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:42.919 it's that different. It is significantly heavier, 00:13:43.220 --> 00:13:46.529 angrier, faster, and more abrasive. It's almost 00:13:46.529 --> 00:13:48.710 a pure metal record in some places. It's basically 00:13:48.710 --> 00:13:51.169 a sonic middle finger to his record label. And 00:13:51.169 --> 00:13:53.509 it worked. It worked. The behind -the -scenes 00:13:53.509 --> 00:13:56.230 machinations were complex, involving Interscope 00:13:56.230 --> 00:13:58.649 Records and Jimmy Iovine, but the end result 00:13:58.649 --> 00:14:00.230 was that he managed to get released from his 00:14:00.230 --> 00:14:03.230 contract with TVT and signed to Interscope, bringing 00:14:03.230 --> 00:14:06.269 the finished, broken EP with him. He won a Grammy 00:14:06.269 --> 00:14:09.470 for the song Wish off that EP, a metal performance 00:14:09.470 --> 00:14:11.629 Grammy for a guy who started out playing keyboards. 00:14:11.909 --> 00:14:13.830 Oh, he wins his freedom. He proves his point. 00:14:14.200 --> 00:14:16.240 But then we get to the big one, the magnum opus, 00:14:16.259 --> 00:14:19.860 1994, The Downward Spiral. This is the landmark. 00:14:20.120 --> 00:14:22.779 This is the album that defines industrial rock 00:14:22.779 --> 00:14:25.759 for the entire 90s generation. But the creation 00:14:25.759 --> 00:14:28.799 of it is. It's heavy. And we absolutely need 00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:30.740 to talk about the location. Because where you 00:14:30.740 --> 00:14:33.080 record an album changes how that record sounds. 00:14:33.480 --> 00:14:35.559 He didn't stay in a studio in Cleveland for this 00:14:35.559 --> 00:14:38.379 one. No. He moved to Los Angeles. And for the 00:14:38.379 --> 00:14:41.120 recording, he ended up renting a house. at a 00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:44.519 10 and 50 Cielo Drive in Benedict, Kenya. That 00:14:44.519 --> 00:14:46.740 address sends a shiver down the spine of anyone 00:14:46.740 --> 00:14:49.299 who knows American history. It should. It's the 00:14:49.299 --> 00:14:51.419 site of the Tate -LaBianca murders committed 00:14:51.419 --> 00:14:55.679 by the Manson family in 1969. Whoa. Okay, let's 00:14:55.679 --> 00:14:58.159 stop right there. He deliberately moves into 00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:00.179 the Manson murder house to record an album called 00:15:00.179 --> 00:15:03.470 The Downward Spiral. That feels incredibly intentional. 00:15:03.570 --> 00:15:06.009 That feels like edgelord behavior, to use a modern 00:15:06.009 --> 00:15:08.490 term. It's a huge point of controversy, and he's 00:15:08.490 --> 00:15:10.990 been asked about it for decades. He built a studio 00:15:10.990 --> 00:15:12.909 inside the living room, right where the murders 00:15:12.909 --> 00:15:15.710 happened, and he named the studio Le Pig, which 00:15:15.710 --> 00:15:18.129 was named after the word pig that Susan Etkin 00:15:18.129 --> 00:15:19.850 scrawled in Sharon Tate's blood on the front 00:15:19.850 --> 00:15:23.389 door. I mean, that is grim. It's beyond grim. 00:15:23.590 --> 00:15:27.590 It is grim. Now, Reznor's defense has always 00:15:27.590 --> 00:15:31.389 been... at least initially, that he didn't pick 00:15:31.389 --> 00:15:33.470 the house for what he called serial killer bullshit. 00:15:34.250 --> 00:15:36.549 He told Entertainment Weekly at the time that 00:15:36.549 --> 00:15:38.610 he just looked at a lot of places, he liked the 00:15:38.610 --> 00:15:40.850 layout of this one, the vibe felt right, and 00:15:40.850 --> 00:15:42.970 it just happened to be that house. Do we buy 00:15:42.970 --> 00:15:45.049 that? I mean, really, you accidentally rent the 00:15:45.049 --> 00:15:47.269 single most infamous murder house in Hollywood 00:15:47.269 --> 00:15:50.070 history. It's very hard to buy Philly. He later 00:15:50.070 --> 00:15:52.090 admitted to having a fascination with what he 00:15:52.090 --> 00:15:56.179 called American folklore. He saw the house as 00:15:56.179 --> 00:15:58.080 part of a dark American history, an artifact. 00:15:58.799 --> 00:16:01.379 But there's a story he tells that completely 00:16:01.379 --> 00:16:03.919 changed his perspective on it. What happened? 00:16:04.220 --> 00:16:06.080 During the recording sessions, he had a chance 00:16:06.080 --> 00:16:08.299 encounter with Sharon Tate's sister, Patty Tate. 00:16:08.360 --> 00:16:11.340 Oh, wow. Yeah. And she confronted him. She basically 00:16:11.340 --> 00:16:13.720 asked him flat out, are you exploiting my sister's 00:16:13.720 --> 00:16:16.340 death for being cool, for selling records? And 00:16:16.340 --> 00:16:18.919 Reznor said that question just really shook him 00:16:18.919 --> 00:16:21.100 to his core. It grounded the horror in reality. 00:16:21.480 --> 00:16:24.919 It did. He realized that for him, it was this 00:16:24.919 --> 00:16:28.080 abstract American folklore. But for her, it was 00:16:28.080 --> 00:16:30.360 her sister being butchered in that room. He said 00:16:30.360 --> 00:16:32.759 he went home that night and just cried. He realized 00:16:32.759 --> 00:16:35.179 he'd crossed a line. He moved out after that, 00:16:35.240 --> 00:16:37.559 didn't he? And the house was torn down. He did. 00:16:37.639 --> 00:16:39.559 He said the experience made him reevaluate a 00:16:39.559 --> 00:16:41.860 lot of things. But regardless of the intent, 00:16:42.139 --> 00:16:45.019 the atmosphere of that house undoubtedly seeped 00:16:45.019 --> 00:16:48.710 into the record. The Downward Spiral is a claustrophobic, 00:16:48.789 --> 00:16:51.929 intense, terrifying album. It sounds like a mental 00:16:51.929 --> 00:16:54.889 breakdown recorded on tape. And yet that's the 00:16:54.889 --> 00:16:56.830 album that launched him into the stratosphere. 00:16:57.289 --> 00:17:01.289 Closer became this huge, unlikely hit. Hurt became 00:17:01.289 --> 00:17:03.629 an instant standard that Johnny Cash would later 00:17:03.629 --> 00:17:05.630 cover. He was suddenly one of the biggest rock 00:17:05.630 --> 00:17:09.029 stars in the world. He was. But then near silence. 00:17:09.230 --> 00:17:12.009 Or at least a very, very long gap in terms of 00:17:12.009 --> 00:17:14.440 new Nine Inch Nails studio albums. This brings 00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:16.640 us to what the sources call the dark years, post 00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:19.259 -1994. He's touring extensively, including that 00:17:19.259 --> 00:17:21.460 legendary Woodstock 94 performance where the 00:17:21.460 --> 00:17:23.759 whole band came out covered in mud. But underneath 00:17:23.759 --> 00:17:26.319 all the success, he's starting to crumble. He's 00:17:26.319 --> 00:17:28.859 really struggling. That perfectionism we talked 00:17:28.859 --> 00:17:32.240 about is now paralyzing him. He has massive writer's 00:17:32.240 --> 00:17:34.779 block because, I mean, how do you follow up an 00:17:34.779 --> 00:17:38.200 album as iconic as the downward spiral? And he's 00:17:38.200 --> 00:17:40.339 dealing with severe addiction issues. We'll get 00:17:40.339 --> 00:17:41.900 into the mechanics of the addiction in just a 00:17:41.900 --> 00:17:44.990 moment, but... Musically, this all leads to The 00:17:44.990 --> 00:17:49.390 Fragile in 1999, five years later. That's a lifetime 00:17:49.390 --> 00:17:52.049 in the music industry back then. It is. And The 00:17:52.049 --> 00:17:55.190 Fragile is a double album. It's this massive, 00:17:55.309 --> 00:17:58.630 sprawling, ambitious undertaking. Critically, 00:17:58.690 --> 00:18:01.170 looking back, many people now consider it his 00:18:01.170 --> 00:18:03.710 masterpiece. It's dense. It's atmospheric. It's 00:18:03.710 --> 00:18:06.430 often beautiful. But at the time, it flopped. 00:18:06.430 --> 00:18:08.509 It didn't flop, but it definitely underperformed 00:18:08.509 --> 00:18:10.849 commercially. It lost money for the label. It 00:18:10.849 --> 00:18:12.730 was incredibly expensive to make. And it didn't 00:18:12.730 --> 00:18:16.230 have a clear, punchy radio single like Closer. 00:18:16.329 --> 00:18:18.789 It was too complex, too long for casual radio 00:18:18.789 --> 00:18:20.690 listening. I read in one of the reports that 00:18:20.690 --> 00:18:22.970 he actually funded the entire North American 00:18:22.970 --> 00:18:24.880 tour. for the fragile out of his own pocket? 00:18:25.099 --> 00:18:27.799 He did. The label wouldn't support it, so he 00:18:27.799 --> 00:18:30.299 financed it himself. That's how much he believed 00:18:30.299 --> 00:18:32.059 in the vision. He was willing to bet his own 00:18:32.059 --> 00:18:34.640 fortune on it. But you can see the strain building. 00:18:34.900 --> 00:18:37.480 He was fighting the label. who just wanted another 00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:40.240 hit. He was fighting his own demons and he was 00:18:40.240 --> 00:18:43.019 fighting to maintain artistic control in an industry 00:18:43.019 --> 00:18:45.380 that was rapidly starting to change. Let's unpack 00:18:45.380 --> 00:18:48.339 those demons because segment three of our outline 00:18:48.339 --> 00:18:50.759 really focuses on his addiction and his subsequent 00:18:50.759 --> 00:18:53.779 sobriety. It seems like the mid to late 90s were 00:18:53.779 --> 00:18:56.079 really the bottom for him personally. They were. 00:18:56.339 --> 00:18:58.819 After the massive success of The Downward Spiral, 00:18:58.940 --> 00:19:01.740 he fell into a deep depression. And this is where 00:19:01.740 --> 00:19:03.940 that childhood story comes right back into focus. 00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:07.140 His maternal grandmother, the woman who raised 00:19:07.140 --> 00:19:09.000 him in the cornfields, who was a surrogate mother, 00:19:09.240 --> 00:19:11.960 she passed away. That must have been devastating. 00:19:12.099 --> 00:19:15.099 She was his anchor, the one stable figure. Exactly. 00:19:15.460 --> 00:19:17.920 Losing her, combined with the immense pressure 00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:20.740 of being crowned the voice of a generation and 00:19:20.740 --> 00:19:23.200 the emptiness that often follows huge success, 00:19:23.480 --> 00:19:26.359 it sent him spiraling. He was abusing alcohol 00:19:26.359 --> 00:19:28.880 and cocaine heavily. He didn't hide from it in 00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:31.250 later interviews. No, he was very blunt about 00:19:31.250 --> 00:19:34.589 it. He said, quote, I had become a terrible addict. 00:19:34.769 --> 00:19:38.089 I needed to get my shit together. He was essentially 00:19:38.089 --> 00:19:40.490 living the destructive narrative of the downward 00:19:40.490 --> 00:19:43.670 spiral in his real life. The art had become reality. 00:19:44.220 --> 00:19:46.119 But there was a surprising influence that helped 00:19:46.119 --> 00:19:47.599 turn him around. And this is another one of those 00:19:47.599 --> 00:19:49.819 connections that feels almost too perfect, like 00:19:49.819 --> 00:19:51.839 it's from a movie script. David Bowie. David 00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:55.039 Bowie. Yes. Nine Inch Nails toured as the opening 00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:58.920 act for Bowie in 1995 and 1996. It was the outside 00:19:58.920 --> 00:20:01.400 tour. Now, I want you to just imagine this scenario. 00:20:02.299 --> 00:20:05.259 Reznor is at the absolute peak of his fame. He's 00:20:05.259 --> 00:20:07.640 the dark prince of industrial rock. But behind 00:20:07.640 --> 00:20:09.700 the scenes, he's a complete mess. Right. And 00:20:09.700 --> 00:20:11.700 then there's Bowie. He's older. He's past his 00:20:11.700 --> 00:20:13.920 commercial peak from the 70s and 80s. But he's 00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:16.900 vibrant, he's endlessly creative, and most importantly, 00:20:17.099 --> 00:20:20.380 he's sober. Bowie had his own infamous cocaine 00:20:20.380 --> 00:20:23.680 years in the 70s, the Thin White Duke period. 00:20:24.039 --> 00:20:26.960 Right. Bowie was the Thin White Duke, famously 00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:29.400 living on a diet of red peppers, milk, and cocaine. 00:20:29.799 --> 00:20:32.779 He had been exactly where Reznor was. And Reznor 00:20:32.779 --> 00:20:35.619 looked at Bowie, who was happy, healthy, and 00:20:35.619 --> 00:20:38.359 still making challenging art. and saw that there 00:20:38.359 --> 00:20:41.559 was a way out. A roadmap. A roadmap. He saw that 00:20:41.559 --> 00:20:43.960 you didn't have to die young to be a legend. 00:20:44.140 --> 00:20:46.599 You could age. You could evolve. You could have 00:20:46.599 --> 00:20:48.759 a life. It wasn't an immediate fix, though. The 00:20:48.759 --> 00:20:50.720 turnaround didn't happen right after that tour. 00:20:50.940 --> 00:20:53.180 No, it took several more years. Addiction is 00:20:53.180 --> 00:20:56.539 a beast. But Bowie planted the seed. He was a 00:20:56.539 --> 00:20:59.500 mentor, almost a ghost of future past for Reznor. 00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:02.859 Reznor finally hit rock bottom after the fragile 00:21:02.859 --> 00:21:05.500 tour and went to rehab, completing it in 2001. 00:21:06.089 --> 00:21:08.190 And the music changed after that. You can hear 00:21:08.190 --> 00:21:09.849 the shift. You can absolutely hear it. The first 00:21:09.849 --> 00:21:13.089 album post -rehab was With Teeth in 2005. And 00:21:13.089 --> 00:21:15.650 it sounds clearer. It's more focused. The drums 00:21:15.650 --> 00:21:18.670 are punchier, more direct. The fog has lifted 00:21:18.670 --> 00:21:20.970 sonically. And it went straight to number one 00:21:20.970 --> 00:21:23.009 on the Billboard 200 chart. Which must have proven 00:21:23.009 --> 00:21:25.630 something crucial to him. Oh, absolutely. It 00:21:25.630 --> 00:21:27.630 proved that he didn't need the drugs to create. 00:21:27.829 --> 00:21:30.029 That is the great fear of every addicted artist. 00:21:30.289 --> 00:21:33.480 If I get sober, will I lose my edge? Will the 00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:36.819 muse leave? With teeth, prove that the edge was 00:21:36.819 --> 00:21:39.400 in him, not in the bottle or the powder. And 00:21:39.400 --> 00:21:41.380 his personal life stabilized in a way that I 00:21:41.380 --> 00:21:43.759 think really shocks people who only know him 00:21:43.759 --> 00:21:46.660 from the lyrics of Closer. Right. The angry, 00:21:46.779 --> 00:21:50.099 isolated young man found a new path. He married 00:21:50.099 --> 00:21:53.420 Mary Keane Mandig in 2009, and they now have 00:21:53.420 --> 00:21:55.880 five children. Five kids. From the guy who wrote 00:21:55.880 --> 00:21:58.490 Hurt. I mean, that's a lot of soccer practices. 00:21:58.589 --> 00:22:00.869 It's a profound change. It's a profound evolution. 00:22:01.250 --> 00:22:04.049 In 2023, he actually expressed reluctance to 00:22:04.049 --> 00:22:06.730 tour as Nine Inch Nails, specifically because 00:22:06.730 --> 00:22:08.529 he didn't want to miss his children's lives. 00:22:08.789 --> 00:22:11.329 He said he wanted to prioritize his family over 00:22:11.329 --> 00:22:14.009 the machine of touring. It's a complete 180 from 00:22:14.009 --> 00:22:15.990 the isolation of his youth. He built the stable 00:22:15.990 --> 00:22:18.059 family unit he didn't have as a child. Speaking 00:22:18.059 --> 00:22:20.019 of the machine, let's switch gears to the industry 00:22:20.019 --> 00:22:22.099 side of things, because Trent Reznor isn't just 00:22:22.099 --> 00:22:24.599 an artist. He is a guy who has gone to literal 00:22:24.599 --> 00:22:28.059 war with the business of music and won. Oh, absolutely. 00:22:28.380 --> 00:22:31.779 And he has the scars to prove it. The biggest 00:22:31.779 --> 00:22:33.880 and most revealing battle, and this is a real 00:22:33.880 --> 00:22:35.960 cautionary tale for any creative person listening 00:22:35.960 --> 00:22:39.440 right now, was the lawsuit against his former 00:22:39.440 --> 00:22:43.579 manager, John Malm Jr., in 2004. This story is 00:22:43.579 --> 00:22:46.400 just wild. So Malm was his manager from the very 00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:48.359 beginning, right? From the Cleveland days. From 00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:51.259 the early days. They were partners. Malm was 00:22:51.259 --> 00:22:52.960 more than a manager. He was the co -owner of 00:22:52.960 --> 00:22:55.710 their company. But when Reznor finally got sober 00:22:55.710 --> 00:22:57.990 in 2001 and started to look at his finances, 00:22:58.349 --> 00:23:00.470 really look at them with a clear head for the 00:23:00.470 --> 00:23:03.109 first time in years, he realized something was 00:23:03.109 --> 00:23:05.869 desperately wrong. What did he find? He found 00:23:05.869 --> 00:23:08.250 that he had sold millions and millions of records. 00:23:08.309 --> 00:23:11.349 He had sold out arenas all over the world. But 00:23:11.349 --> 00:23:14.650 he only had about $400 ,000 in liquid cash to 00:23:14.650 --> 00:23:17.069 his name. That doesn't add up at all. Where did 00:23:17.069 --> 00:23:19.559 all the money go? It went to the manager. The 00:23:19.559 --> 00:23:21.940 contract he had signed as a young, naive artist 00:23:21.940 --> 00:23:25.259 stipulated that mom got 20 % of Reznor's gross 00:23:25.259 --> 00:23:27.160 earnings. Okay, let's unpack that for a second. 00:23:27.220 --> 00:23:28.859 I want to do a little business one here because 00:23:28.859 --> 00:23:31.099 the difference between gross and net sounds boring, 00:23:31.200 --> 00:23:32.779 but it's actually life or death in business. 00:23:33.119 --> 00:23:35.740 Let's use a simple lemonade stand analogy. Let's 00:23:35.740 --> 00:23:38.299 say you run a lemonade stand. It costs you $9 00:23:38.299 --> 00:23:40.599 to buy the lemons, the sugar, and the cups. You 00:23:40.599 --> 00:23:42.519 sell the entire pitcher of lemonade for $10. 00:23:42.740 --> 00:23:45.019 Okay, so I made $1 of profit. That's my net, 00:23:45.160 --> 00:23:47.750 my take -home pay. Right. Now, if your manager 00:23:47.750 --> 00:23:50.829 takes a standard 20 % of the net, he takes 20 00:23:50.829 --> 00:23:54.049 cents from your $1 profit. You keep 80 cents. 00:23:54.490 --> 00:23:56.670 Seems fair enough. That sounds totally standard. 00:23:56.930 --> 00:23:59.970 But Malm's contract took 20 % of the gross. The 00:23:59.970 --> 00:24:01.950 gross is the total revenue, that $10 sales figure. 00:24:02.250 --> 00:24:05.390 So you sell the pitcher for $10. Malm immediately 00:24:05.390 --> 00:24:08.329 takes his 20%, which is $2, right off the top. 00:24:08.509 --> 00:24:10.970 But wait a minute. It cost me $9 to make the 00:24:10.970 --> 00:24:13.509 lemonade. If he takes $2, I only have $8 left. 00:24:13.690 --> 00:24:16.289 Exactly. You just lost $1. You are literally 00:24:16.289 --> 00:24:19.930 paying to work. Now, apply that same math to 00:24:19.930 --> 00:24:22.890 a massive global tour. Tours are incredibly expensive. 00:24:23.089 --> 00:24:24.910 You have to pay for the trucks, the lights, the 00:24:24.910 --> 00:24:27.130 sound system, the road crew, the buses, the hotels. 00:24:27.410 --> 00:24:30.089 A tour might gross $10 million in ticket sales, 00:24:30.190 --> 00:24:33.250 but cost $9 million to run. So under this contract, 00:24:33.509 --> 00:24:36.430 Malm takes his 20 % of the gross. That's $2 million. 00:24:36.829 --> 00:24:39.470 And Reznor is left with the remaining $8 million 00:24:39.470 --> 00:24:44.160 to pay $9 million in bills. Reznor ends up $1 00:24:44.160 --> 00:24:46.980 million in debt from a successful tour, while 00:24:46.980 --> 00:24:49.500 his manager walks away with $2 million in cash. 00:24:49.799 --> 00:24:53.539 That is predatory. It's insane that it's even 00:24:53.539 --> 00:24:55.559 legal. The jury thought it was more than just 00:24:55.559 --> 00:24:58.880 bad business. Reznor sued Mom for fraud and breach 00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:01.519 of fiduciary duties. The jury awarded Reznor 00:25:01.519 --> 00:25:04.160 nearly $3 million, which is about $5 million 00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:07.400 adjusted for inflation today. And just as crucially, 00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:10.279 the verdict restored his control over his trademarks, 00:25:10.420 --> 00:25:13.319 including the iconic NI logo. So he wins his 00:25:13.319 --> 00:25:16.140 freedom. He wins his name back. He gets his finances 00:25:16.140 --> 00:25:18.440 in order. But he wasn't done fighting the machine. 00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:20.740 He then turned his sights on the record labels 00:25:20.740 --> 00:25:23.269 themselves. This was the year zero era around 00:25:23.269 --> 00:25:25.990 2007. The music industry was in a full blown 00:25:25.990 --> 00:25:28.430 panic because of Napster and digital piracy. 00:25:28.529 --> 00:25:30.750 Their solution, which was completely backwards, 00:25:30.890 --> 00:25:33.130 was to jack up the prices on physical CDs. Right. 00:25:33.309 --> 00:25:35.470 Risner was on tour in Australia and saw that 00:25:35.470 --> 00:25:37.329 his new album was being sold for an exorbitant 00:25:37.329 --> 00:25:39.329 price. I think it was something like 30 Australian 00:25:39.329 --> 00:25:40.930 dollars. And he called them out on it publicly. 00:25:41.529 --> 00:25:44.670 Oh, he called it absurd in all caps. He went 00:25:44.670 --> 00:25:47.569 on a tirade accusing Universal Music Group of 00:25:47.569 --> 00:25:50.990 ripping off his true fans just to prop up their 00:25:50.990 --> 00:25:54.250 dying, outdated business model. And he didn't 00:25:54.250 --> 00:25:56.150 just complain on a blog or something. He said 00:25:56.150 --> 00:25:59.130 something on stage that I think every single 00:25:59.130 --> 00:26:01.430 label executive at the time must have had nightmares 00:26:01.430 --> 00:26:04.109 about. He told the crowd to steal his music. 00:26:04.269 --> 00:26:06.789 Literally. Literally. He stood on stage and said, 00:26:06.869 --> 00:26:09.390 steal it, steal and steal and steal some more 00:26:09.390 --> 00:26:11.569 and give it to all your friends and keep on stealing. 00:26:11.690 --> 00:26:14.809 He actively encouraged piracy of his own work. 00:26:14.970 --> 00:26:16.650 Now, I have to play devil's advocate here for 00:26:16.650 --> 00:26:19.210 a second. It's pretty easy for Trent Reznor, 00:26:19.410 --> 00:26:21.930 a multimillionaire rock star, to stand up and 00:26:21.930 --> 00:26:25.309 say, steal my music. Can a new artist, someone 00:26:25.309 --> 00:26:27.950 just starting out, really afford to say that? 00:26:28.069 --> 00:26:30.190 That is the million dollar question, isn't it? 00:26:30.410 --> 00:26:33.250 And frankly, no new artist can't. Reznor was 00:26:33.250 --> 00:26:35.670 in a very privileged position to be able to burn 00:26:35.670 --> 00:26:37.970 that bridge. He had already made his name. But 00:26:37.970 --> 00:26:40.809 his core point was that the value of music wasn't 00:26:40.809 --> 00:26:42.950 in the plastic disc anymore. It was in the relationship 00:26:42.950 --> 00:26:45.869 with the fan. So the label, by gouging the fan 00:26:45.869 --> 00:26:48.390 on the price, was actually hurting the long -term 00:26:48.390 --> 00:26:50.670 relationship. They were damaging the brand. Yeah. 00:26:51.890 --> 00:26:54.250 Reznor was prioritizing the long -term health 00:26:54.250 --> 00:26:57.849 of his fan base over a short -term CD sale. And 00:26:57.849 --> 00:27:00.730 he put his money where his mouth was. In 2008, 00:27:00.869 --> 00:27:03.329 he released the next album, The Slip. And how 00:27:03.329 --> 00:27:05.630 did he release it? He didn't even do a pay what 00:27:05.630 --> 00:27:08.150 you want model like Radiohead did with In Rainbows. 00:27:08.390 --> 00:27:11.210 He just put the entire album in multiple high 00:27:11.210 --> 00:27:13.970 quality digital formats on his website for free. 00:27:14.170 --> 00:27:16.690 No strings attached. His message was simply, 00:27:16.789 --> 00:27:18.809 this one's on me. And what was the response? 00:27:19.150 --> 00:27:22.170 It was downloaded 1 .4 million times in the first 00:27:22.170 --> 00:27:24.630 six weeks. It showed that he understood the new 00:27:24.630 --> 00:27:26.609 digital landscape better than the labels did. 00:27:26.849 --> 00:27:29.069 He understood that in the Internet age, access 00:27:29.069 --> 00:27:30.910 and goodwill were more valuable than scarcity. 00:27:31.130 --> 00:27:33.970 If 1 .4 million people have your album, that's 00:27:33.970 --> 00:27:36.190 1 .4 million potential ticket buyers for your 00:27:36.190 --> 00:27:39.009 next tour. This tech -savvy mindset, this understanding 00:27:39.009 --> 00:27:40.809 of the digital world, actually led him into the 00:27:40.809 --> 00:27:42.960 corporate world, oddly enough. This rebellious 00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:45.359 pirate ended up wearing a badge at Apple? It's 00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:48.220 one of the great ironies of his career. He joined 00:27:48.220 --> 00:27:50.579 Beats Electronics as the chief creative officer. 00:27:50.940 --> 00:27:54.180 His big project was codenamed Daisy, and his 00:27:54.180 --> 00:27:56.380 goal was to solve the problem of music discovery 00:27:56.380 --> 00:27:58.500 in the streaming age. What was the problem he 00:27:58.500 --> 00:28:02.220 saw? He hated algorithms. He hated that Spotify 00:28:02.220 --> 00:28:04.160 would just feed you more of what you already 00:28:04.160 --> 00:28:06.579 liked. He wanted to create a streaming service 00:28:06.579 --> 00:28:09.279 that felt like having your own guy at the record 00:28:09.279 --> 00:28:12.619 store. A human curator who knows what you like, 00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:14.960 but can also push you to discover something new. 00:28:15.180 --> 00:28:18.279 That project eventually became Beats Music, which 00:28:18.279 --> 00:28:20.960 was then bought by Apple for $3 billion and became 00:28:20.960 --> 00:28:23.299 the foundation of Apple Music. So Trent Reznor 00:28:23.299 --> 00:28:25.839 was an Apple executive. He was. For a while. 00:28:25.960 --> 00:28:28.819 But it didn't last. He eventually left, saying 00:28:28.819 --> 00:28:31.299 that the corporate environment felt at odds with 00:28:31.299 --> 00:28:33.880 the artist in me. He realized that being a corporate 00:28:33.880 --> 00:28:36.680 executive means sitting in meetings about marketing 00:28:36.680 --> 00:28:39.220 budgets and user acquisition, not making art. 00:28:39.529 --> 00:28:41.690 He's a guy who needs to be in the studio creating. 00:28:41.829 --> 00:28:43.809 Well, speaking of creating, let's look at his 00:28:43.809 --> 00:28:46.410 collaborations. Because for a guy who famously 00:28:46.410 --> 00:28:48.730 started as a one -man band because he couldn't 00:28:48.730 --> 00:28:51.329 play well with others, he sure collaborates a 00:28:51.329 --> 00:28:53.730 lot now. It's true. It's another one of his great 00:28:53.730 --> 00:28:55.990 evolutions. And the range of his collaborations 00:28:55.990 --> 00:28:59.670 is just staggering. Early on, he produced Marilyn 00:28:59.670 --> 00:29:03.180 Manson's breakout albums like Antichrist superstar. 00:29:03.579 --> 00:29:06.259 He really shaped that sound. But that relationship 00:29:06.259 --> 00:29:08.880 soured pretty badly due to competition and personal 00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:10.380 issues. But then you have something completely 00:29:10.380 --> 00:29:12.839 out of left field, like Old Town Road. Laughs. 00:29:12.980 --> 00:29:15.640 Yes, the biggest song in the history of the Billboard 00:29:15.640 --> 00:29:19.119 charts for a while. So the story is that Lil 00:29:19.119 --> 00:29:21.559 Nas X sampled a nine inch nails instrumental 00:29:21.559 --> 00:29:25.109 track called 34 Ghosts the Fifth. from the Ghosts 00:29:25.109 --> 00:29:27.630 IV album. He didn't ask first, did he? No, he 00:29:27.630 --> 00:29:29.690 just bought the beat online from a Dutch producer 00:29:29.690 --> 00:29:33.009 for like $30, not even realizing it was an NIN 00:29:33.009 --> 00:29:36.349 sample. The song blew up, and suddenly Reznor's 00:29:36.349 --> 00:29:38.410 lawyers are on the phone. Reznor could have sued 00:29:38.410 --> 00:29:40.529 him into oblivion. He could have blocked the 00:29:40.529 --> 00:29:42.829 song from ever being released properly. He could 00:29:42.829 --> 00:29:44.950 have, and a lot of artists from his generation 00:29:44.950 --> 00:29:47.740 absolutely would have. But Reznor didn't. He 00:29:47.740 --> 00:29:49.740 cleared the sample. He allowed it to happen. 00:29:49.859 --> 00:29:52.299 He was supportive. He got a songwriting credit 00:29:52.299 --> 00:29:54.700 and a Country Music Association award out of 00:29:54.700 --> 00:29:57.640 it, didn't he? He did. Trent Reznor is a CMA 00:29:57.640 --> 00:30:00.099 award winner. But what's really interesting is 00:30:00.099 --> 00:30:02.940 how he handled the fame of it. He declined to 00:30:02.940 --> 00:30:04.740 be in the music video. He didn't want to show 00:30:04.740 --> 00:30:07.440 up on stage with Lil Nas X. He said, this is 00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:10.359 his time, not mine. It shows a real maturity. 00:30:10.779 --> 00:30:13.059 He's happy to facilitate and get paid for it, 00:30:13.079 --> 00:30:15.240 but he doesn't need to hog the spotlight anymore. 00:30:15.440 --> 00:30:17.839 He also produced Halsey's album, If I Can't Have 00:30:17.839 --> 00:30:20.740 Love, I Want Power, in 2021. Which was a brilliant 00:30:20.740 --> 00:30:23.740 move. He took a massive pop star Halsey and gave 00:30:23.740 --> 00:30:28.160 her this gritty, raw, industrial edge. The album 00:30:28.160 --> 00:30:30.359 sounds like a lost Nine Inch Nails record, but 00:30:30.359 --> 00:30:33.160 with her vocals. It garnered huge critical acclaim 00:30:33.160 --> 00:30:35.039 and showed that he can translate his specific 00:30:35.039 --> 00:30:37.240 sound to a new generation without it sounding 00:30:37.240 --> 00:30:39.359 like old guy trying to be cool. But the most 00:30:39.359 --> 00:30:41.140 important creative partnership of his modern 00:30:41.140 --> 00:30:43.940 era is definitely with Atticus Ross. Without 00:30:43.940 --> 00:30:46.799 a doubt. Atticus Ross had been working with him 00:30:46.799 --> 00:30:49.539 for years as a programmer and producer. But in 00:30:49.539 --> 00:30:52.440 2016, Reznor made him the only other official 00:30:52.440 --> 00:30:55.559 member of Nine Inch Nails. They are a true duo 00:30:55.559 --> 00:30:58.380 now. And together they launched what is essentially 00:30:58.380 --> 00:31:02.220 Trent Reznor's second act, film scoring. And 00:31:02.220 --> 00:31:03.940 this isn't just some side gig for them. They 00:31:03.940 --> 00:31:06.779 are dominating Hollywood. It all started with 00:31:06.779 --> 00:31:09.579 David Fincher. Fincher approached Reznor to score 00:31:09.579 --> 00:31:13.000 his film The Social Network in 2010. Reznor was 00:31:13.000 --> 00:31:15.259 actually reluctant at first. He said reading 00:31:15.259 --> 00:31:17.099 the script ruined his planned year off because 00:31:17.099 --> 00:31:19.410 he knew it was so good. that he had to do it 00:31:19.410 --> 00:31:22.069 and thank god he did that score i mean let's 00:31:22.069 --> 00:31:24.349 just try to describe it it doesn't sound like 00:31:24.349 --> 00:31:26.529 a typical movie score at all there's no sweeping 00:31:26.529 --> 00:31:28.950 orchestra there are no violins swelling when 00:31:28.950 --> 00:31:31.750 two characters have a moment no it's electronic 00:31:31.750 --> 00:31:35.490 it's twitchy it's anxious it uses these buzzing 00:31:35.490 --> 00:31:38.450 arpeggiated modular synthesizers that sound like 00:31:38.450 --> 00:31:40.630 electricity and code it perfectly captured the 00:31:40.630 --> 00:31:42.630 feeling of the digital world and the social anxiety 00:31:42.630 --> 00:31:45.089 of the characters it completely redefined what 00:31:45.089 --> 00:31:47.750 a drama score could sound like And it won them 00:31:47.750 --> 00:31:50.849 the Academy Award for Best Original Score on 00:31:50.849 --> 00:31:53.809 their first try. First try wins an Oscar. Not 00:31:53.809 --> 00:31:56.410 a bad start. They became Fincher's go -to composers 00:31:56.410 --> 00:31:58.690 after that. The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, 00:31:58.710 --> 00:32:01.289 which won them a Grammy. And then Gone Girl. 00:32:01.470 --> 00:32:03.569 Oh, I love the story about the Gone Girl score. 00:32:03.650 --> 00:32:05.309 It gives you such a perfect insight into their 00:32:05.309 --> 00:32:08.730 creative process. So Gone Girl is a movie about 00:32:08.730 --> 00:32:10.829 a marriage that looks absolutely perfect on the 00:32:10.829 --> 00:32:13.730 outside, but is just rotten hatred and deception 00:32:13.730 --> 00:32:16.950 on the inside. Fincher told Reznor and Ross that 00:32:16.950 --> 00:32:19.230 he wanted music that sounded like an insincere 00:32:19.230 --> 00:32:22.309 facade. An insincere facade? What does that even 00:32:22.309 --> 00:32:25.089 mean musically? Well, Fincher had been at a chiropractor's 00:32:25.089 --> 00:32:28.849 office and he heard this soothing, but... ultimately 00:32:28.849 --> 00:32:32.089 terrible, cheesy, new age massage music. And 00:32:32.089 --> 00:32:34.309 he told them, make that. Make the musical equivalent 00:32:34.309 --> 00:32:36.990 of that false comfort. That is so creepy and 00:32:36.990 --> 00:32:40.410 so perfect. So Reznor and Ross created this beautiful, 00:32:40.630 --> 00:32:44.250 soothing, ambient music, but then they let it 00:32:44.250 --> 00:32:47.410 curdle. They added just a little bit of dissonance 00:32:47.410 --> 00:32:49.789 under the surface, a little bit of noise, a slightly 00:32:49.789 --> 00:32:52.430 off -key note, so you feel deeply uneasy listening 00:32:52.430 --> 00:32:55.519 to it. You know something is wrong, even when 00:32:55.519 --> 00:32:57.859 the music is telling you to relax. It's psychological 00:32:57.859 --> 00:33:01.119 warfare through sound. It is. But they haven't 00:33:01.119 --> 00:33:03.839 just stuck to Dark Fincher thrillers. They scored 00:33:03.839 --> 00:33:06.759 Soul for Pixar. Which is wild. Nine Inch Nails 00:33:06.759 --> 00:33:08.839 doing a Disney Pixar movie about the afterlife. 00:33:09.140 --> 00:33:11.269 And they won another Oscar for it. which they 00:33:11.269 --> 00:33:13.049 shared with Jean -Baptiste. They did the Watchmen 00:33:13.049 --> 00:33:15.750 series for HBO and won an Emmy. They are just 00:33:15.750 --> 00:33:17.690 racking up the hardware. But they don't love 00:33:17.690 --> 00:33:19.630 everything they do, right? What was the story 00:33:19.630 --> 00:33:23.069 with the Sandra Bullock movie Bird Box? Reznor 00:33:23.069 --> 00:33:25.849 was very blunt about that one. He called the 00:33:25.849 --> 00:33:28.329 experience an effing waste of time. He felt the 00:33:28.329 --> 00:33:31.470 production team phoned it in and that the final 00:33:31.470 --> 00:33:33.509 sound mix of the movie buried their music so 00:33:33.509 --> 00:33:35.910 low you couldn't even hear it. He has no patience 00:33:35.910 --> 00:33:38.130 for mediocrity. If he's going to commit to a 00:33:38.130 --> 00:33:40.289 project, he wants it to be excellent. And he's 00:33:40.289 --> 00:33:43.069 got a really busy slate coming up, too. Teenage 00:33:43.069 --> 00:33:46.009 Mutant Ninja Turtles, Mutant Mayhem, the new 00:33:46.009 --> 00:33:49.609 Luca Guadagnino film Challengers, and Tron Aries 00:33:49.609 --> 00:33:53.210 in 2025. He is working harder now as a composer 00:33:53.210 --> 00:33:55.430 than he ever did as a touring rock star. But 00:33:55.430 --> 00:33:57.230 he's working on his own terms. That's the key 00:33:57.230 --> 00:33:58.809 difference. He's not living on a tour bus for 00:33:58.809 --> 00:34:01.269 18 months. He's working in his own studio with 00:34:01.269 --> 00:34:03.710 his creative partner, making art that he believes 00:34:03.710 --> 00:34:06.599 in. And then he goes home to his family. So we've 00:34:06.599 --> 00:34:08.940 talked about the history, the business, the movies. 00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:11.780 Let's dig into the sound itself. Segment six. 00:34:11.920 --> 00:34:14.619 What makes a Trent Reznor song sound like a Trent 00:34:14.619 --> 00:34:17.260 Reznor song? Well, People magazine once famously 00:34:17.260 --> 00:34:19.880 described it as self -loathing sexual obsession 00:34:19.880 --> 00:34:24.019 mixed with synthesized beats, which is crude, 00:34:24.139 --> 00:34:26.179 but it's not inaccurate for the early stuff. 00:34:26.280 --> 00:34:29.679 It's that baritone voice, right? It's just unmistakable, 00:34:29.699 --> 00:34:32.059 whether he's whispering or screaming. It's the 00:34:32.059 --> 00:34:34.489 baritone range for sure. But I think the real 00:34:34.489 --> 00:34:37.349 secret sauce is the contrast. That is the core 00:34:37.349 --> 00:34:41.010 of the Nine Inch Nails sound. He mixes very aggressive, 00:34:41.050 --> 00:34:43.969 distorted, ugly noise sounds that should be painful 00:34:43.969 --> 00:34:46.929 to listen to. These very beautiful, fragile, 00:34:47.190 --> 00:34:49.710 elegant piano melodies. It's beauty and decay 00:34:49.710 --> 00:34:52.260 happening at the exact same time. So who are 00:34:52.260 --> 00:34:54.300 his influences? Because we know about the Tuba 00:34:54.300 --> 00:34:56.599 and the Eagles, but where did the synths and 00:34:56.599 --> 00:34:58.900 the darkness come from? Gary Newman is a huge 00:34:58.900 --> 00:35:02.079 one. Reznor said hearing the song Cars was a 00:35:02.079 --> 00:35:04.739 revelation. He knew instantly that he wanted 00:35:04.739 --> 00:35:07.139 to work with synthesizers. And Depeche Mode, 00:35:07.260 --> 00:35:10.599 of course. Specifically their album Black Celebration. 00:35:11.000 --> 00:35:13.099 Reznor called seeing them live on that tour a 00:35:13.099 --> 00:35:15.179 spiritual experience. I can totally hear that. 00:35:15.199 --> 00:35:17.599 That dark, moody, electronic pop is definitely 00:35:17.599 --> 00:35:19.800 in the DNA of Pretty Hate Machine. But then you 00:35:19.800 --> 00:35:23.510 have the rock side. He cites the band Rush, specifically 00:35:23.510 --> 00:35:26.389 their Signals album, as teaching him that keyboards 00:35:26.389 --> 00:35:28.449 could belong in hard rock, that they weren't 00:35:28.449 --> 00:35:30.389 just for pop music. And then you get into the 00:35:30.389 --> 00:35:33.409 really experimental stuff. Coil, Shrob and Gristle, 00:35:33.570 --> 00:35:35.710 and especially the Canadian band Skinny Puppy. 00:35:35.789 --> 00:35:37.750 Oh, he's talked about Skinny Puppy a lot. He 00:35:37.750 --> 00:35:40.190 has. He's actually admitted that his first hit, 00:35:40.309 --> 00:35:43.590 Down In It, was basically a total ripoff of Skinny 00:35:43.590 --> 00:35:45.909 Puppy's song, Dig It. He was very open about 00:35:45.909 --> 00:35:47.789 his influences. At least he's honest about it. 00:35:47.929 --> 00:35:51.289 And his own legacy of influence is massive. David 00:35:51.289 --> 00:35:53.869 Bowie compared Nine Inch Nails to the Velvet 00:35:53.869 --> 00:35:56.869 Underground in terms of their impact. Axl Rose 00:35:56.869 --> 00:35:59.530 was heavily listening to Reznor while making 00:35:59.530 --> 00:36:02.449 the long -delayed Guns N' Roses album Chinese 00:36:02.449 --> 00:36:06.050 Democracy. Artists like Angun and Stephen Wilson 00:36:06.050 --> 00:36:09.050 both cite the album The Fragile as a life -changing 00:36:09.050 --> 00:36:11.389 record for them. He shaped the sound of a whole 00:36:11.389 --> 00:36:13.690 generation. So to bring this all together, we 00:36:13.690 --> 00:36:15.570 started with a lonely kid in the cornfields of 00:36:15.570 --> 00:36:17.489 Pennsylvania who just wanted to escape. He played 00:36:17.489 --> 00:36:20.250 tuba. He loved the Eagles. He waxed floors to 00:36:20.250 --> 00:36:22.730 get free studio time. He fought addiction. He 00:36:22.730 --> 00:36:24.769 fought his manager in court. He fought the record 00:36:24.769 --> 00:36:27.750 labels on stage. And he won. That's the incredible 00:36:27.750 --> 00:36:29.869 thing. When you look back at all these battles, 00:36:29.969 --> 00:36:32.570 he won. He won all of them. He really did. He's 00:36:32.570 --> 00:36:34.909 an Oscar winner, an Emmy winner, a father of 00:36:34.909 --> 00:36:37.949 five. And he's still making edgy, relevant art 00:36:37.949 --> 00:36:41.230 into his late 50s. It raises a really provocative 00:36:41.230 --> 00:36:43.510 thought for me looking back at this whole journey. 00:36:43.929 --> 00:36:46.550 We usually look at an artist's masterpiece as 00:36:46.550 --> 00:36:49.820 a specific album. For Reznor, it would be The 00:36:49.820 --> 00:36:52.400 Downward Spiral, The Fragile. But looking at 00:36:52.400 --> 00:36:54.599 this whole stack of sources, I wonder if Trent 00:36:54.599 --> 00:36:56.820 Reznor's greatest masterpiece isn't an album 00:36:56.820 --> 00:36:59.539 at all. What is it then? I think it's his career 00:36:59.539 --> 00:37:02.699 itself. It's the way he engineered a life. Think 00:37:02.699 --> 00:37:05.380 about it. He took the self -loathing and the 00:37:05.380 --> 00:37:08.199 profound isolation of his youth and he transmuted 00:37:08.199 --> 00:37:11.380 it into art. He then survived the total collapse 00:37:11.380 --> 00:37:14.139 of the music industry in the 2000s and came out 00:37:14.139 --> 00:37:16.969 ahead of the labels. And then he transitioned 00:37:16.969 --> 00:37:19.690 from being a rock star, a job with a very short, 00:37:19.750 --> 00:37:23.250 self -destructive shelf life, to being a composer, 00:37:23.550 --> 00:37:25.869 a respected job you can do until you're 90 years 00:37:25.869 --> 00:37:28.289 old. That is a fascinating way to look at it. 00:37:28.309 --> 00:37:30.449 He didn't just survive the machine. He rebuilt 00:37:30.449 --> 00:37:32.610 the machine to work for him. Exactly. He proved 00:37:32.610 --> 00:37:34.809 that you can grow up without selling out. You 00:37:34.809 --> 00:37:36.829 can evolve from that angry kid without losing 00:37:36.829 --> 00:37:39.449 your artistic edge. His masterpiece is the life 00:37:39.449 --> 00:37:41.329 he built. Well, on that note, we're going to 00:37:41.329 --> 00:37:43.190 wrap up this deep dive. Whether you're listening 00:37:43.190 --> 00:37:45.389 to the downward spiral or the social network 00:37:45.389 --> 00:37:47.889 score later today, maybe listen a little closer. 00:37:48.329 --> 00:37:50.969 There's a lot of history and a lot of struggle 00:37:50.969 --> 00:37:53.570 and strategy in those notes. Thanks for listening.