WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.720 Welcome back to the Deep Dive. Today, we are 00:00:02.720 --> 00:00:04.459 opening up a stack of sources that are going 00:00:04.459 --> 00:00:07.719 to force us to stretch our brains in a few different 00:00:07.719 --> 00:00:09.820 directions at once. Yeah, this is a big one. 00:00:09.980 --> 00:00:13.660 We're looking at a figure who is, I think it's 00:00:13.660 --> 00:00:16.219 fair to say, one of the most polarizing paradoxes 00:00:16.219 --> 00:00:18.539 in modern culture. Absolutely. A paradox is the 00:00:18.539 --> 00:00:20.339 perfect word for it. We're talking about a man 00:00:20.339 --> 00:00:24.550 who exists simultaneously as this huge medical 00:00:24.550 --> 00:00:27.969 authority, and also a scientific pariah, you 00:00:27.969 --> 00:00:29.589 know, depending on which room he walks into. 00:00:29.769 --> 00:00:32.070 It really is a case study in contrast. I mean, 00:00:32.070 --> 00:00:34.049 if you look at the documentation we have today, 00:00:34.130 --> 00:00:36.570 we've got articles, biographies, a ton of scientific 00:00:36.570 --> 00:00:39.929 rebuttals. We are tracking a man who started 00:00:39.929 --> 00:00:42.770 his career as a board -certified endocrinologist 00:00:42.770 --> 00:00:45.469 in Boston. Right, a proper scientist. A proper 00:00:45.469 --> 00:00:47.950 hard science guy. He was deeply embedded in the 00:00:47.950 --> 00:00:50.829 world of hormones, biology, chemistry, and yet... 00:00:51.119 --> 00:00:53.140 This is the same man who transforms into the 00:00:53.140 --> 00:00:55.640 world's most recognizable face of New Age spirituality. 00:00:55.799 --> 00:00:58.460 And when you say contrasts, you really aren't 00:00:58.460 --> 00:01:00.500 kidding. The sources paint this picture of his 00:01:00.500 --> 00:01:02.659 early days, and it is not the image of a guru 00:01:02.659 --> 00:01:04.599 sitting in the lotus position that we all know 00:01:04.599 --> 00:01:06.900 today. Not at all. We're talking about a guy 00:01:06.900 --> 00:01:08.939 who used to smoke a pack of cigarettes a day. 00:01:09.040 --> 00:01:12.140 A pack a day? Drank coffee by the hour and was 00:01:12.140 --> 00:01:14.299 just grinding through the high -stress environment 00:01:14.299 --> 00:01:20.000 of a major hospital. And then he pivots. He becomes 00:01:20.000 --> 00:01:23.700 the guy telling us that aging is a learned behavior. 00:01:24.120 --> 00:01:26.500 And that phrase, aging is a learned behavior, 00:01:26.819 --> 00:01:28.939 that is really the central hook of his entire 00:01:28.939 --> 00:01:30.819 philosophy. It's the headline, right? It's the 00:01:30.819 --> 00:01:33.760 whole thing. He claims that human beings can 00:01:33.760 --> 00:01:36.400 attain a state of what he calls perfect health. 00:01:36.700 --> 00:01:38.640 Okay. And what does perfect health mean to him? 00:01:38.700 --> 00:01:40.200 It's not just, you know, good blood pressure. 00:01:40.319 --> 00:01:42.879 No, no. He defines it as a condition free from 00:01:42.879 --> 00:01:46.900 disease, never feeling pain. And arguably a state 00:01:46.900 --> 00:01:49.060 where one cannot age or die. Cannot age or die. 00:01:49.120 --> 00:01:51.359 Just let that sit for a second. It's a massive 00:01:51.359 --> 00:01:53.620 claim. It's the kind of claim that stops you 00:01:53.620 --> 00:01:56.980 in your tracks. Right. And so today our mission 00:01:56.980 --> 00:01:59.340 isn't to just do a biography of a celebrity. 00:01:59.359 --> 00:02:01.799 We aren't just walking through a timeline of 00:02:01.799 --> 00:02:04.019 his book releases. Right. We are investigating 00:02:04.019 --> 00:02:06.640 the collision. the collision between ancient 00:02:06.640 --> 00:02:09.460 eastern philosophy and modern western medicine 00:02:09.460 --> 00:02:13.500 we want to understand how this one man popularized 00:02:13.500 --> 00:02:16.979 the term quantum healing built a multi -million 00:02:16.979 --> 00:02:19.750 dollar brand around it And at the same time became 00:02:19.750 --> 00:02:22.270 what the sources call a magnet for criticism 00:02:22.270 --> 00:02:24.909 from the scientific community. Exactly. And just 00:02:24.909 --> 00:02:27.129 to be clear, we're drawing this information from 00:02:27.129 --> 00:02:30.729 some really comprehensive documentation of his 00:02:30.729 --> 00:02:34.129 life, his career, his published works, and the 00:02:34.129 --> 00:02:37.270 very, very intense public and scientific reception 00:02:37.270 --> 00:02:39.669 to his ideas. We're primarily looking at the 00:02:39.669 --> 00:02:42.210 documentation found in his Wikipedia entry, which 00:02:42.210 --> 00:02:44.590 itself is fascinating. It's like a record of 00:02:44.590 --> 00:02:46.969 this constant tug of war over his legacy. It 00:02:46.969 --> 00:02:48.699 really is. The whole story. feels like it's framed 00:02:48.699 --> 00:02:51.180 around this tension on one side you have subjective 00:02:51.180 --> 00:02:53.180 experience you know consciousness spirituality 00:02:53.180 --> 00:02:55.520 how we feel inside and on the other objective 00:02:55.520 --> 00:02:58.659 reality the world of mainstream science of physics 00:02:58.659 --> 00:03:01.219 of double blind studies and Deepak Chopra sits 00:03:01.219 --> 00:03:03.860 right on the fault line of that tension so let's 00:03:03.860 --> 00:03:05.680 unpack this we have to start at the beginning 00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:07.699 to really understand how we got to that fault 00:03:07.699 --> 00:03:10.240 line yeah Because looking at his background, 00:03:10.419 --> 00:03:12.680 he didn't start out meditating on a mountain 00:03:12.680 --> 00:03:15.539 top. No, far from it. He was born into the establishment. 00:03:15.659 --> 00:03:18.120 Right. Deepak Chopra was born in New Delhi in 00:03:18.120 --> 00:03:22.300 1946. And the timing here is crucial. It's just 00:03:22.300 --> 00:03:24.500 before the partition of India while it was still 00:03:24.500 --> 00:03:27.819 British India. Okay. And his background is actually 00:03:27.819 --> 00:03:30.419 steeped in very traditional, very high status 00:03:30.419 --> 00:03:34.340 structures. His father, Krishan Lal Chopra, was 00:03:34.340 --> 00:03:36.840 a prominent cardiologist. A cardiologist. So 00:03:36.840 --> 00:03:38.699 the medical pedigree was there from day one. 00:03:38.919 --> 00:03:41.259 Absolutely. And his father wasn't just any doctor. 00:03:41.400 --> 00:03:43.819 He was a lieutenant in the British Army. He served 00:03:43.819 --> 00:03:46.300 at the front in Burma. And he was even a medical 00:03:46.300 --> 00:03:49.520 advisor to Lord Mountbatten. The Viceroy of India. 00:03:49.659 --> 00:03:52.400 The last Viceroy, yes. And later, his father 00:03:52.400 --> 00:03:54.139 was the head of the Department of Medicine and 00:03:54.139 --> 00:03:56.759 Cardiology at a major hospital in New Delhi for 00:03:56.759 --> 00:04:00.000 over 25 years. That is heavy duty. I mean, that's 00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:02.000 about as establishment as you can get. get. You're 00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:04.120 talking about a household that probably valued 00:04:04.120 --> 00:04:07.500 Western scientific rigor above... Almost anything 00:04:07.500 --> 00:04:10.319 else. You'd have to assume so. And Chopra followed 00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:13.159 right in those footsteps. He graduated from the 00:04:13.159 --> 00:04:16.279 All India Institute of Medical Sciences in 1969. 00:04:16.740 --> 00:04:19.819 Top medical school. The top. But there is this 00:04:19.819 --> 00:04:22.720 one anecdote from his early days that I think 00:04:22.720 --> 00:04:24.560 provides a little bit of foreshadowing. It's 00:04:24.560 --> 00:04:26.839 like a small crack in the armor of that Western 00:04:26.839 --> 00:04:28.839 training. I think I know the one you mean. The 00:04:28.839 --> 00:04:31.860 rural India story. That's the one. He spent his 00:04:31.860 --> 00:04:34.240 first months as a doctor working in rural India. 00:04:35.100 --> 00:04:37.240 And he writes about working in this village where 00:04:37.240 --> 00:04:39.319 the lights would go out whenever it rained. Wow. 00:04:39.480 --> 00:04:43.319 It was basic, gritty medicine. And it was there, 00:04:43.379 --> 00:04:45.600 amidst those conditions, that he started getting 00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:48.120 interested in something beyond just the mechanics 00:04:48.120 --> 00:04:51.319 of the body. He became drawn to endocrinology, 00:04:51.519 --> 00:04:53.839 specifically neuroendocrinology. The study of 00:04:53.839 --> 00:04:56.720 hormones and the brain? Exactly. Because he wanted 00:04:56.720 --> 00:04:58.860 to find a biological basis for the influence 00:04:58.860 --> 00:05:01.879 of thoughts and emotions. So even then... Sitting 00:05:01.879 --> 00:05:04.279 in the dark in this village, he's already thinking, 00:05:04.379 --> 00:05:07.279 how does a thought turn into a chemical? He's 00:05:07.279 --> 00:05:09.199 looking for the bridge between the mind and the 00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:12.160 meat, so to speak. Precisely. He was looking 00:05:12.160 --> 00:05:15.240 for the mechanism, but the path to exploring 00:05:15.240 --> 00:05:18.319 that wasn't straight at all. He decided to emigrate 00:05:18.319 --> 00:05:21.480 to the United States in 1970. And the context 00:05:21.480 --> 00:05:23.860 of that move is actually really interesting historically. 00:05:24.379 --> 00:05:26.899 He had to go to Sri Lanka just to take the exam 00:05:26.899 --> 00:05:29.839 to practice in the U .S. Why Sri Lanka? Because 00:05:29.839 --> 00:05:32.620 the Indian government at the time had actually 00:05:32.620 --> 00:05:34.540 banned its doctors from sitting for the exam. 00:05:34.720 --> 00:05:37.019 They were worried about brain drain. Wow, that's 00:05:37.019 --> 00:05:39.639 dedication. Yeah. But why was the U .S. so keen 00:05:39.639 --> 00:05:41.769 on recruiting doctors from... overseas at that 00:05:41.769 --> 00:05:44.529 time? The Vietnam War. Ah, of course. That makes 00:05:44.529 --> 00:05:46.910 sense. The U .S. military needed its own doctors, 00:05:46.949 --> 00:05:49.009 so they were recruiting heavily from overseas 00:05:49.009 --> 00:05:52.110 to fill the gaps in civilian hospitals. So Chopra 00:05:52.110 --> 00:05:54.589 arrives, and he dives straight into the American 00:05:54.589 --> 00:05:57.129 medical machine. Head first. He did a clinical 00:05:57.129 --> 00:05:59.930 internship in New Jersey, then residencies at 00:05:59.930 --> 00:06:02.509 the Leahy Clinic, the VA Medical Center, Beth 00:06:02.509 --> 00:06:04.970 Israel Deaconess in Boston. I mean, these are 00:06:04.970 --> 00:06:07.670 big names. He's teaching at Tufts, Boston University, 00:06:07.970 --> 00:06:10.459 Harvard. This isn't a guy on the fringes. Not 00:06:10.459 --> 00:06:12.860 at all. He climbs the ladder very quickly. He 00:06:12.860 --> 00:06:15.180 eventually became chief of staff at the New England 00:06:15.180 --> 00:06:18.399 Memorial Hospital. Chief of staff. Correct. By 00:06:18.399 --> 00:06:21.519 1980, he is the chief of staff. He has a thriving 00:06:21.519 --> 00:06:24.959 private practice in endocrinology. He is, by 00:06:24.959 --> 00:06:27.480 all accounts, a highly successful, completely 00:06:27.480 --> 00:06:30.600 mainstream Western doctor. He's achieved the 00:06:30.600 --> 00:06:32.699 dream. He's reached the pinnacle of what his 00:06:32.699 --> 00:06:35.639 father, the cardiologist, likely wanted for him. 00:06:35.800 --> 00:06:38.899 Absolutely. But, and there is always a but in 00:06:38.899 --> 00:06:41.279 these stories, he wasn't exactly the picture 00:06:41.279 --> 00:06:44.920 of perfect health himself, was he? No, not even 00:06:44.920 --> 00:06:46.980 close. And this is the pivot point. We're looking 00:06:46.980 --> 00:06:50.379 at the years between 1981 and 1985. Despite all 00:06:50.379 --> 00:06:52.240 his success, or maybe because of the stress of 00:06:52.240 --> 00:06:54.879 it, Chopra was living a really unhealthy lifestyle. 00:06:55.240 --> 00:06:57.240 The sources mention he was drinking black coffee 00:06:57.240 --> 00:06:59.660 by the hour. Constantly. And smoking at least 00:06:59.660 --> 00:07:01.560 a pack of cigarettes a day just to manage his 00:07:01.560 --> 00:07:03.980 stress. It's the classic doctor who doesn't take 00:07:03.980 --> 00:07:07.420 his own advice scenario. The irony of the healer 00:07:07.420 --> 00:07:10.420 who is slowly destroying himself. In a way, yes. 00:07:10.660 --> 00:07:13.259 But in 1981, he takes a trip back to New Delhi 00:07:13.259 --> 00:07:15.779 and he meets an Ayurvedic physician named Brihaspati 00:07:15.779 --> 00:07:18.399 Dev Chaguna. And Ayurveda is the traditional 00:07:18.399 --> 00:07:20.939 Indian system. of medicine right yes thousands 00:07:20.939 --> 00:07:24.100 of years old and this meeting it planted a seed 00:07:24.100 --> 00:07:27.420 but the real catalyst for change was his own 00:07:27.420 --> 00:07:31.110 need to stop those habits He couldn't quit. So 00:07:31.110 --> 00:07:34.069 what did he do? He turned to Transcendental Meditation, 00:07:34.129 --> 00:07:36.730 or TM, to help him quit smoking and drinking 00:07:36.730 --> 00:07:39.930 all that coffee. And it worked? It did. The sources 00:07:39.930 --> 00:07:42.689 say he still meditates two hours every single 00:07:42.689 --> 00:07:45.490 morning. But it did more than just help him quit 00:07:45.490 --> 00:07:48.170 smoking. It led to a complete disenchantment 00:07:48.170 --> 00:07:50.470 with the way he was practicing medicine. There's 00:07:50.470 --> 00:07:52.209 a quote here that really sums up that feeling. 00:07:52.310 --> 00:07:54.569 He said, when all you do is prescribe medication, 00:07:54.949 --> 00:07:57.490 you start to feel like a legalized drug pusher. 00:07:57.959 --> 00:08:00.120 That's a powerful sentiment, isn't it? It really 00:08:00.120 --> 00:08:01.920 is. It paints a picture of a doctor who feels 00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:04.019 like he's just managing symptoms, not actually 00:08:04.019 --> 00:08:06.839 healing. He felt that 80 % of all the drugs he 00:08:06.839 --> 00:08:09.779 prescribed were of optional or, at best, marginal 00:08:09.779 --> 00:08:12.420 benefit. He felt like he was just pushing pills. 00:08:12.839 --> 00:08:15.819 So this disillusionment led to a really radical 00:08:15.819 --> 00:08:19.600 career change. In 1985, he met the Maharishi 00:08:19.600 --> 00:08:22.100 Mahesh Yogi, the founder of the whole TM movement, 00:08:22.360 --> 00:08:25.160 and the Maharishi asked him to establish an Ayurvedic 00:08:25.160 --> 00:08:27.920 health center in the U .S. So he just quits the 00:08:27.920 --> 00:08:31.220 hospital. He resigns as chief of staff. He resigns. 00:08:31.220 --> 00:08:34.659 He walks away from that entire career path. He 00:08:34.659 --> 00:08:37.059 leaves the establishment to found the Maharishi 00:08:37.059 --> 00:08:39.860 Ayurveda Health Center. Wow. He becomes the founding 00:08:39.860 --> 00:08:42.659 president of the American Association of Ayurvedic 00:08:42.659 --> 00:08:45.500 Medicine. He effectively traded his scrubs for 00:08:45.500 --> 00:08:48.019 saffron, metaphorically speaking. And this is 00:08:48.019 --> 00:08:49.799 where we really start to see the development 00:08:49.799 --> 00:08:52.360 of the philosophy that made him famous. He's 00:08:52.360 --> 00:08:54.980 moving away from treating specific ailments and 00:08:54.980 --> 00:08:57.440 towards this grand concept of perfect health. 00:08:57.600 --> 00:08:59.440 Yes. And we really need to define that because 00:08:59.440 --> 00:09:01.700 for Chopra, perfect health isn't just, you know, 00:09:01.700 --> 00:09:04.440 having good cholesterol or a normal EKG. Right. 00:09:04.519 --> 00:09:06.059 If I go to my doctor and get a clean bill of 00:09:06.059 --> 00:09:08.240 health, that's good. But Chopra is talking about 00:09:08.240 --> 00:09:10.279 something on a whole other level, a completely 00:09:10.279 --> 00:09:12.720 different level. He defines it as a condition 00:09:12.720 --> 00:09:16.019 free from disease, free from pain. And as we 00:09:16.019 --> 00:09:18.139 mentioned in the intro, a state where you cannot 00:09:18.139 --> 00:09:21.440 age or die. I just I still get stuck on that. 00:09:22.259 --> 00:09:25.440 Cannot age or die. How does he even begin to 00:09:25.440 --> 00:09:27.799 justify that biologically? Well, that's the thing. 00:09:27.879 --> 00:09:30.299 He doesn't justify it biologically in the traditional 00:09:30.299 --> 00:09:32.840 sense. He justifies it through what he calls 00:09:32.840 --> 00:09:35.279 the quantum mechanical body. Okay, let's unpack 00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:38.139 the quantum mechanical body. It sounds like something 00:09:38.139 --> 00:09:40.720 out of a superhero origin story. It kind of does. 00:09:40.840 --> 00:09:43.500 His view is that the human body isn't actually 00:09:43.500 --> 00:09:46.820 solid matter. What is it then? He says it's energy 00:09:46.820 --> 00:09:49.740 and information. The idea is that your physical 00:09:49.740 --> 00:09:52.679 body, the one you can touch, is just a manifestation 00:09:52.679 --> 00:09:55.840 of this deeper underlying quantum body. Okay, 00:09:55.899 --> 00:09:57.740 so there's a body under my body. Essentially. 00:09:57.820 --> 00:10:00.399 And because that quantum body is just energy 00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:03.360 and information, he argues it's totally fluid, 00:10:03.559 --> 00:10:07.120 changeable. Which means, to him, human aging 00:10:07.120 --> 00:10:09.460 is also fluid and changeable. What does that 00:10:09.460 --> 00:10:11.200 mean, fluid? It means it can speed up, it can 00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:13.740 slow down, it can stop entirely. And even reverse 00:10:13.740 --> 00:10:16.450 itself. And even reverse itself, yes. And he 00:10:16.450 --> 00:10:18.269 says it's determined entirely by your state of 00:10:18.269 --> 00:10:20.669 mind. So if I just think the right thoughts, 00:10:20.850 --> 00:10:23.750 I can literally stop aging in my tracks. That 00:10:23.750 --> 00:10:27.129 is the core implication. He argues that our thoughts 00:10:27.129 --> 00:10:30.250 and our feelings give rise to all of our cellular 00:10:30.250 --> 00:10:32.929 processes. This is the central idea of quantum 00:10:32.929 --> 00:10:35.570 healing. Right. This is the title of his big 00:10:35.570 --> 00:10:40.009 1989 book. Exactly. Quantum healing. He defines 00:10:40.009 --> 00:10:42.509 it as the ability of one mode of consciousness. 00:10:43.159 --> 00:10:46.279 the mind, to spontaneously correct mistakes in 00:10:46.279 --> 00:10:49.100 another mode of consciousness, the body. Spontaneously 00:10:49.100 --> 00:10:51.919 correct mistakes. So if you have a health imbalance, 00:10:52.139 --> 00:10:55.220 like a disease, he claims it can be corrected 00:10:55.220 --> 00:10:58.279 by quantum mechanical means, which is essentially 00:10:58.279 --> 00:11:01.320 a shift in these energy fields. You can see why 00:11:01.320 --> 00:11:03.080 that's so appealing. I mean, it sounds incredibly 00:11:03.080 --> 00:11:05.200 empowering. If I have the power to fix my own 00:11:05.200 --> 00:11:08.000 cells just by shifting my consciousness, that's 00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:09.539 a lot better than waiting for a prescription 00:11:09.539 --> 00:11:12.019 to maybe work. And that is exactly why it's so 00:11:12.019 --> 00:11:14.019 powerful. and so appealing to so many people. 00:11:14.179 --> 00:11:16.659 It offers agency. It offers you control over 00:11:16.659 --> 00:11:18.759 your biological destiny. If we have to look at 00:11:18.759 --> 00:11:21.019 how he applies this to actual diseases, because 00:11:21.019 --> 00:11:23.000 this is where the controversy really heats up. 00:11:23.120 --> 00:11:26.000 It really does. It's one thing to say I can think 00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:28.120 myself into feeling younger. It's a whole other 00:11:28.120 --> 00:11:29.980 thing to talk about something like cancer. And 00:11:29.980 --> 00:11:32.639 he does talk about cancer. He has equated spontaneous 00:11:32.639 --> 00:11:35.879 remission in cancer, which is a real, though 00:11:35.879 --> 00:11:39.379 very rare, phenomenon. He's equated that to a 00:11:39.379 --> 00:11:42.320 jump to a new level of consciousness that prohibits 00:11:42.320 --> 00:11:44.580 the existence of cancer. A level of consciousness 00:11:44.580 --> 00:11:46.919 that prohibits the existence of cancer. That's 00:11:46.919 --> 00:11:50.080 a very, very specific and bold claim. It is. 00:11:50.179 --> 00:11:52.639 He's saying your mind can create an environment 00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:55.220 where cancer simply can't exist. And he goes 00:11:55.220 --> 00:11:57.480 even further with other diseases. For example, 00:11:57.679 --> 00:12:01.019 AIDS. Oh, boy. What does he say about AIDS? So 00:12:01.019 --> 00:12:03.519 he acknowledges that AIDS is caused by the HIV 00:12:03.519 --> 00:12:06.360 virus. He's not denying that. But his explanation 00:12:06.360 --> 00:12:09.620 of the mechanism. is unique. Okay. He has stated 00:12:09.620 --> 00:12:11.980 that the virus emits a sound that lures the DNA 00:12:11.980 --> 00:12:14.919 to its destruction. A sound? A sound. He says 00:12:14.919 --> 00:12:17.080 the DNA mistakes it for a friendly or compatible 00:12:17.080 --> 00:12:19.379 sound. The virus makes a sound that tricks your 00:12:19.379 --> 00:12:21.980 DNA. That is his claim. And he suggests that 00:12:21.980 --> 00:12:24.940 Ayurveda, the traditional medicine, uses primordial 00:12:24.940 --> 00:12:27.679 sound like mantras to correct this distortion. 00:12:28.100 --> 00:12:30.440 Okay. I can see why the medical community might 00:12:30.440 --> 00:12:33.860 have... Some issues with this. To put it mildly, 00:12:33.860 --> 00:12:36.200 yes. And this brings us right to the collision 00:12:36.200 --> 00:12:39.259 with physics. Because Chopra isn't just using 00:12:39.259 --> 00:12:42.620 spiritual or medical terms. He is borrowing very 00:12:42.620 --> 00:12:45.000 heavily from the lexicon of quantum physics. 00:12:45.139 --> 00:12:47.440 Oh, he loves the word quantum. Quantum healing, 00:12:47.720 --> 00:12:50.840 quantum body, quantum entanglement, quantum... 00:12:51.490 --> 00:12:54.049 Everything. He uses terms like quantum entanglement, 00:12:54.210 --> 00:12:56.769 wave function collapse, and non -locality to 00:12:56.769 --> 00:12:58.570 explain how this biological healing happens. 00:12:58.789 --> 00:13:00.610 But here's the key question. When he says quantum 00:13:00.610 --> 00:13:03.610 entanglement, does he mean what a physicist at 00:13:03.610 --> 00:13:06.330 MIT means when they say it? And that is the absolute 00:13:06.330 --> 00:13:09.669 core of the dispute. Physicists strongly, strongly 00:13:09.669 --> 00:13:12.480 rebut his usage of these terms. Why? What's their 00:13:12.480 --> 00:13:14.419 main argument? Their main argument is what's 00:13:14.419 --> 00:13:16.299 called the scale problem. The scale problem. 00:13:16.500 --> 00:13:18.940 Yes. Quantum effects, all these weird things 00:13:18.940 --> 00:13:21.100 like interference and wave function collapse, 00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:23.980 they are typically observed at the subatomic 00:13:23.980 --> 00:13:27.679 level with tiny, tiny particles. Like electrons. 00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:30.779 Exactly. Physicists argue that these effects 00:13:30.779 --> 00:13:33.679 simply do not apply to macroscopic objects like 00:13:33.679 --> 00:13:36.919 human organs or our brains due to something called 00:13:36.919 --> 00:13:41.080 decoherence. Decoherence. Basically, big, warm, 00:13:41.120 --> 00:13:45.159 wet things like human bodies are just too complex 00:13:45.159 --> 00:13:48.100 and noisy for these delicate quantum effects 00:13:48.100 --> 00:13:50.600 to survive. They get washed out immediately. 00:13:50.919 --> 00:13:52.740 So you can't treat a liver like it's an electron 00:13:52.740 --> 00:13:55.159 because it just doesn't work that way. Precisely. 00:13:55.159 --> 00:13:57.240 And the pushback from the scientific community 00:13:57.240 --> 00:14:00.080 on this has been incredibly sharp. The evolutionary 00:14:00.080 --> 00:14:02.919 biologist Richard Dawkins has called Chopra's 00:14:02.919 --> 00:14:06.000 use of these terms plausible sounding hocus pocus. 00:14:06.120 --> 00:14:08.960 Ouch. That's blunt. And the physicist Robert 00:14:08.960 --> 00:14:11.820 L. Park has said that physicists wince when they 00:14:11.820 --> 00:14:14.539 hear it, calling it new age quackery. Wince. 00:14:14.679 --> 00:14:18.220 I like that. In fact, in 1998, Chopra was awarded 00:14:18.220 --> 00:14:20.679 the Ig Nobel Prize. The Ig Nobel. That's the 00:14:20.679 --> 00:14:22.399 satirical one, right? The one for research that 00:14:22.399 --> 00:14:24.019 makes you laugh, then makes you think. That's 00:14:24.019 --> 00:14:26.139 the one. He was awarded the prize in physics 00:14:26.139 --> 00:14:28.740 for his unique interpretation of quantum physics 00:14:28.740 --> 00:14:31.200 as it applies to life, liberty, and the pursuit 00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:34.120 of economic happiness. Economic happiness. That's 00:14:34.120 --> 00:14:35.820 a bit of a dig at the business side, which I'm 00:14:35.820 --> 00:14:38.080 sure we'll get to. It is. But how does Chopra 00:14:38.080 --> 00:14:40.799 defend himself against these physicists? Does 00:14:40.799 --> 00:14:43.559 he argue back on the science? Does he say, no, 00:14:43.679 --> 00:14:45.539 you're wrong, I know physics better than you? 00:14:45.759 --> 00:14:47.960 Well, this is where it gets interesting. His 00:14:47.960 --> 00:14:51.460 defense shifts. When he's cornered, for instance, 00:14:51.700 --> 00:14:53.539 in a well -known interview with Richard Dawkins, 00:14:53.759 --> 00:14:56.840 he actually admitted that he uses the term quantum 00:14:57.440 --> 00:15:00.279 As a metaphor. A metaphor. Yes. He said it has 00:15:00.279 --> 00:15:02.399 little to do with quantum theory and physics. 00:15:02.600 --> 00:15:05.299 Wait, hold on. So it's a metaphor, but his books 00:15:05.299 --> 00:15:08.259 and lectures make it sound like a literal physical 00:15:08.259 --> 00:15:11.649 mechanism for healing. And that is the Technobabble 00:15:11.649 --> 00:15:14.570 accusation. Critics like the neuroscientist Sam 00:15:14.570 --> 00:15:17.610 Harris argue that he merges two different language 00:15:17.610 --> 00:15:20.450 games, the spiritual and the scientific, in a 00:15:20.450 --> 00:15:23.070 completely unprincipled way. What do they mean, 00:15:23.169 --> 00:15:25.269 merges two language games? You take a word like 00:15:25.269 --> 00:15:28.549 energy or field, it means one thing in a spiritual 00:15:28.549 --> 00:15:31.450 context and a very different, very specific thing 00:15:31.450 --> 00:15:33.750 in physics. He blurs them together until the 00:15:33.750 --> 00:15:36.330 statement sounds profound but is actually scientifically 00:15:36.330 --> 00:15:40.539 meaningless. So it's incoherent. babbling strewn 00:15:40.539 --> 00:15:43.000 with scientific terms. That's a direct quote 00:15:43.000 --> 00:15:45.500 from his critics. Yes. But Chopra seems to really 00:15:45.500 --> 00:15:48.120 double down on the idea that consciousness is 00:15:48.120 --> 00:15:50.840 the thing running the show. Right. He's not just 00:15:50.840 --> 00:15:54.419 saying mind over matter as the slogan. He believes 00:15:54.419 --> 00:15:56.879 it is the fundamental nature of reality. He does. 00:15:56.960 --> 00:16:00.360 He's a proponent of philosophical idealism. Which 00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:03.320 is? The belief that consciousness creates reality, 00:16:03.559 --> 00:16:06.159 not the other way around. The common scientific 00:16:06.159 --> 00:16:09.220 view is that you have a physical universe and 00:16:09.220 --> 00:16:11.940 out of the complexity of the brain, consciousness 00:16:11.940 --> 00:16:15.179 emerges. He flips that script. So we are physical 00:16:15.179 --> 00:16:18.419 machines that learn to think. No. In his view, 00:16:18.580 --> 00:16:21.080 we are thoughts that learn to create a physical 00:16:21.080 --> 00:16:23.320 machine. We are thoughts that learn to create 00:16:23.320 --> 00:16:25.200 a physical machine. That is a trippy thought. 00:16:25.679 --> 00:16:27.720 It is. And he takes it all the way to evolution. 00:16:27.940 --> 00:16:30.340 He's been quoted as saying Charles Darwin was 00:16:30.340 --> 00:16:32.720 wrong. That is a bold move. You don't just say 00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:35.559 Darwin was wrong. He argues that evolution isn't 00:16:35.559 --> 00:16:38.639 random mutation and natural selection. He believes 00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:41.200 it's consciousness seeking to express itself 00:16:41.200 --> 00:16:44.179 in more and more complex forms. So the universe 00:16:44.179 --> 00:16:46.500 itself is evolving its consciousness through 00:16:46.500 --> 00:16:49.940 us. Exactly. He has this very poetic line. We 00:16:49.940 --> 00:16:52.000 are the eyes of the universe looking at itself. 00:16:52.179 --> 00:16:54.320 That is beautiful, I have to admit. The eyes 00:16:54.320 --> 00:16:56.779 of the universe looking at itself. You can absolutely 00:16:56.779 --> 00:16:58.879 see why people are drawn to this. It gives you 00:16:58.879 --> 00:17:01.799 a sense of cosmic importance, not just, you know, 00:17:01.799 --> 00:17:04.240 being a collection of chemicals. And that incredible 00:17:04.240 --> 00:17:06.980 appeal is precisely what launched him into the 00:17:06.980 --> 00:17:10.799 stratosphere. Which brings us to 1993. The Oprah 00:17:10.799 --> 00:17:14.960 Effect. The Oprah Effect. In 1993, Chopra published 00:17:14.960 --> 00:17:18.579 Ageless Body, Timeless Mind, and he managed to 00:17:18.579 --> 00:17:20.900 get an interview on The Oprah Winfrey Show. And 00:17:20.900 --> 00:17:22.880 we all know what happens when Oprah likes a book. 00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:25.839 It is a cultural explosion. Within 24 hours of 00:17:25.839 --> 00:17:29.759 that interview airing, the book sold 137 ,000 00:17:29.759 --> 00:17:33.880 copies. 137 ,000 in a single day. In one day. 00:17:33.960 --> 00:17:36.779 And 400 ,000 within a week. That one interview 00:17:36.779 --> 00:17:39.279 effectively made in a household name and launched 00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:41.640 him as an incredibly wealthy figure. His net 00:17:41.640 --> 00:17:44.160 worth today is estimated to be over $80 million. 00:17:44.559 --> 00:17:47.059 But success on that scale always brings drama, 00:17:47.140 --> 00:17:49.460 doesn't it? I read that this huge success actually 00:17:49.460 --> 00:17:52.490 caused a massive rift with his own guru. It did. 00:17:52.750 --> 00:17:55.410 The relationship with the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi 00:17:55.410 --> 00:17:58.250 soured very, very quickly after that Oprah interview. 00:17:58.490 --> 00:18:01.369 How quickly? Just four days after the show aired, 00:18:01.609 --> 00:18:04.210 the TM movement sent out an instruction to all 00:18:04.210 --> 00:18:06.549 its centers to stop promoting Deepak Chopra. 00:18:06.809 --> 00:18:10.329 Four days. That's incredibly fast. That sounds 00:18:10.329 --> 00:18:13.089 like a really bad breakup. It was. There were 00:18:13.089 --> 00:18:16.759 several reasons cited. One was rivalry. The Maharishi 00:18:16.759 --> 00:18:19.180 reportedly felt that Chopra was now competing 00:18:19.180 --> 00:18:22.279 for the guru status. He was becoming more famous 00:18:22.279 --> 00:18:24.470 than the founder. Potentially. There were also 00:18:24.470 --> 00:18:26.990 financial disputes, and Chopra himself later 00:18:26.990 --> 00:18:29.150 said he became uncomfortable with what he described 00:18:29.150 --> 00:18:32.210 as a cultish atmosphere that was developing around 00:18:32.210 --> 00:18:34.329 the Maharishi. And he lost that cool title he 00:18:34.329 --> 00:18:35.890 had, right? Something about heaven and earth. 00:18:36.089 --> 00:18:38.769 Yes. The title Don Ventari of Heaven and Earth, 00:18:38.890 --> 00:18:41.369 which the Maharishi had given him, was stripped 00:18:41.369 --> 00:18:43.829 away and given to someone else, a neuroscientist 00:18:43.829 --> 00:18:46.549 within the movement named Tony Nader. Don Ventari 00:18:46.549 --> 00:18:49.150 of Heaven and Earth. Easy come, easy go, I guess. 00:18:49.190 --> 00:18:51.690 So he splits from the TM movement, but he certainly 00:18:51.690 --> 00:18:54.660 doesn't slow down. No, if anything, he accelerates. 00:18:54.740 --> 00:18:56.759 He builds his own empire. He moves to California, 00:18:57.059 --> 00:18:59.299 works with Sharp Healthcare for a while, and 00:18:59.299 --> 00:19:01.859 then he co -founds the Chopra Center for Wellbeing. 00:19:02.019 --> 00:19:03.940 And this is where the business aspect becomes 00:19:03.940 --> 00:19:06.579 very, very high end. Extremely high end. How 00:19:06.579 --> 00:19:08.500 high end are we talking? Well, the center was 00:19:08.500 --> 00:19:12.450 charging at the time $4 ,000 a week. for treatments 00:19:12.450 --> 00:19:15.089 four thousand a week and he has extensive product 00:19:15.089 --> 00:19:18.130 lines herbal supplements massage oils and especially 00:19:18.130 --> 00:19:21.769 anti -aging products critics have noted that 00:19:21.769 --> 00:19:23.630 a year's supply of some of these anti -aging 00:19:23.630 --> 00:19:26.369 products can cost up to ten thousand dollars 00:19:26.369 --> 00:19:30.150 so immortality isn't cheap apparently not and 00:19:30.150 --> 00:19:31.970 medical anthropologists have been critical of 00:19:31.970 --> 00:19:34.109 this noting that his whole approach tends to 00:19:34.109 --> 00:19:37.430 focus on the upper class he can charge 25 000 00:19:37.430 --> 00:19:41.029 or even more for a single lecture 25 grand for 00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:44.460 speech. That is serious business. But when you 00:19:44.460 --> 00:19:46.259 are making that kind of money and making these 00:19:46.259 --> 00:19:49.079 kinds of sweeping medical claims, you are bound 00:19:49.079 --> 00:19:51.460 to run into legal trouble. And he has. There 00:19:51.460 --> 00:19:53.519 have been some significant legal battles along 00:19:53.519 --> 00:19:56.220 the way. One of the most notable was the GEMA 00:19:56.220 --> 00:20:00.279 lawsuit back in 1991. GEMA. as in the Journal 00:20:00.279 --> 00:20:02.359 of the American Medical Association. The big 00:20:02.359 --> 00:20:05.259 one. The very one. Chopra and some of his colleagues 00:20:05.259 --> 00:20:07.799 had published an article on Ayurveda in JAMA. 00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:11.059 But then subsequently, JAMA published an erratum, 00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:13.759 which is a formal correction, accusing the authors 00:20:13.759 --> 00:20:16.039 of having undisclosed financial interests in 00:20:16.039 --> 00:20:17.539 the Ayurvedic products they were discussing. 00:20:17.779 --> 00:20:20.019 Ah, the conflict of interest problem. Exactly. 00:20:20.700 --> 00:20:23.619 JAMA's associate editor was highly critical of 00:20:23.619 --> 00:20:27.079 them. And in response, Chopra and the TM groups 00:20:27.079 --> 00:20:30.920 actually sued the editor. and JAMA for defamation. 00:20:31.039 --> 00:20:34.190 How much do they sue for? They asked for $194 00:20:34.190 --> 00:20:38.769 million in damages. Wow. $194 million. That is 00:20:38.769 --> 00:20:41.990 a massive lawsuit. It was. But the case was ultimately 00:20:41.990 --> 00:20:45.390 dismissed in 1993. It didn't stick. And there 00:20:45.390 --> 00:20:47.089 was a copyright issue as well, wasn't there? 00:20:47.190 --> 00:20:50.210 With a Stanford professor. Yes. Robert Sapolsky. 00:20:50.289 --> 00:20:52.589 He's a very respected neuroendocrinologist at 00:20:52.589 --> 00:20:55.390 Stanford. He sued regarding Chopra's book Ageless 00:20:55.390 --> 00:20:58.230 Body, Timeless Mind. The Big Oprah book. The 00:20:58.230 --> 00:21:00.529 very one. It turned out that Chopra had used 00:21:00.529 --> 00:21:03.480 five passages of text and a whole table on stress 00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:06.200 endocrinology directly from Sapolsky's work without 00:21:06.200 --> 00:21:09.299 proper attribution. That's a huge no -no in academic 00:21:09.299 --> 00:21:11.720 and publishing circles. A very big deal. They 00:21:11.720 --> 00:21:14.359 settled out of court, and Chopra corrected the 00:21:14.359 --> 00:21:16.799 attribution in later editions of the book, but 00:21:16.799 --> 00:21:19.319 it definitely fueled the critics who argued his 00:21:19.319 --> 00:21:22.980 scholarship was, well, a bit loose. Then there's 00:21:22.980 --> 00:21:24.779 the whole placebo debate. We touched on this, 00:21:24.900 --> 00:21:27.619 but a lot of critics say his treatments are just 00:21:27.619 --> 00:21:30.779 placebos. But Chopra has a really interesting 00:21:30.779 --> 00:21:33.500 take on that accusation. He does. He completely 00:21:33.500 --> 00:21:37.019 reframes it. Instead of denying that it's a placebo, 00:21:37.400 --> 00:21:40.039 he embraces the placebo effect. What does he 00:21:40.039 --> 00:21:42.859 say? He says the placebo effect is real medicine 00:21:42.859 --> 00:21:45.059 because it triggers the body's healing system. 00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:47.980 He essentially argues that the placebo effect 00:21:47.980 --> 00:21:50.980 is quantum healing in action. I mean, on one 00:21:50.980 --> 00:21:53.240 hand, he's not wrong that the placebo effect 00:21:53.240 --> 00:21:56.200 is a real biological response. Your brain can 00:21:56.200 --> 00:21:58.200 release endorphins. It can change your perception 00:21:58.200 --> 00:22:00.720 of pain. If you feel better, you feel better. 00:22:00.859 --> 00:22:03.380 True. But is there a danger there? That's the 00:22:03.380 --> 00:22:05.900 counter argument, right? Critics argue it raises 00:22:05.900 --> 00:22:08.859 false hope and could lure very sick people away 00:22:08.859 --> 00:22:11.259 from legitimate medical treatments, chemotherapy, 00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:14.420 surgery that could actually save their lives. 00:22:14.859 --> 00:22:17.660 Exactly. And beyond the placebo debate, there 00:22:17.660 --> 00:22:20.660 are some very real safety concerns with the Ayurvedic 00:22:20.660 --> 00:22:23.339 remedies themselves. Oh, like the actual physical 00:22:23.339 --> 00:22:26.430 pills and potions? Yes. A study published in 00:22:26.430 --> 00:22:29.789 JAMA, ironically, found that about 20 % of U 00:22:29.789 --> 00:22:32.029 .S. and Indian manufactured Ayurvedic medicines 00:22:32.029 --> 00:22:35.990 sold online contained lead, mercury, or arsenic. 00:22:36.049 --> 00:22:38.730 Lead, mercury, and arsenic. And another study 00:22:38.730 --> 00:22:41.390 of users found that roughly 40 % had elevated 00:22:41.390 --> 00:22:45.430 blood lead levels. Yikes. So while the quantum 00:22:45.430 --> 00:22:47.869 part might be a metaphor, the potential for lead 00:22:47.869 --> 00:22:50.829 poisoning is very literal. Correct. And this 00:22:50.829 --> 00:22:53.130 constant friction with the medical and scientific 00:22:53.130 --> 00:22:55.470 world has led to what you can only really describe 00:22:55.470 --> 00:22:58.490 as a war on skeptics. Yeah, Chopra does not take 00:22:58.490 --> 00:23:00.650 criticism lying down, does he? No, not at all. 00:23:00.750 --> 00:23:03.410 He has taken a very aggressive public stance 00:23:03.410 --> 00:23:05.990 against what he calls militant skeptics. At one 00:23:05.990 --> 00:23:08.430 point, he specifically called out Wikipedia editors, 00:23:08.670 --> 00:23:10.750 feeling that they were biased against him and 00:23:10.750 --> 00:23:13.069 his work. Which, ironically, is where a lot of 00:23:13.069 --> 00:23:14.910 our source material for today is compiled. True. 00:23:15.029 --> 00:23:17.349 But he made this one claim about skeptics that 00:23:17.349 --> 00:23:19.869 really, really wild up. the scientific community. 00:23:20.029 --> 00:23:22.509 What was that? He wrote that no skeptic, to my 00:23:22.509 --> 00:23:24.710 knowledge, ever made a major scientific discovery 00:23:24.710 --> 00:23:27.710 or advanced the welfare of others. Whoa, that 00:23:27.710 --> 00:23:31.069 is a sweeping statement to say no skeptic has 00:23:31.069 --> 00:23:33.730 ever made a discovery. It was immediately rebuked 00:23:33.730 --> 00:23:36.450 by astronomers and scientists all over the world. 00:23:36.549 --> 00:23:39.210 They started listing people like Carl Sagan, 00:23:39.269 --> 00:23:41.130 Richard Feynman, people who were famously and 00:23:41.130 --> 00:23:43.470 proudly skeptical and yet made some of the most 00:23:43.470 --> 00:23:46.960 massive contributions to human knowledge. Yeah, 00:23:47.019 --> 00:23:49.599 Carl Sagan is practically the patron saint of 00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:52.299 combining skepticism with a sense of wonder and 00:23:52.299 --> 00:23:55.160 discovery. Exactly. But Chopra's view is that 00:23:55.160 --> 00:23:57.619 skepticism often devolves into just shutting 00:23:57.619 --> 00:24:00.460 down new ideas without consideration. On the 00:24:00.460 --> 00:24:02.400 flip side, the skeptics have labeled him things 00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:05.559 like a purveyor of woo or a crank. I saw a mention 00:24:05.559 --> 00:24:08.259 in the sources of a study about pseudo -profound 00:24:08.259 --> 00:24:10.400 bullshit. That's the actual academic term they 00:24:10.400 --> 00:24:13.460 use. Believe it or not, yes. A 2015 study titled... 00:24:13.819 --> 00:24:16.279 On the reception and detection of pseudo profound 00:24:16.279 --> 00:24:19.079 bullshit, actually use Deepak Chopra's Twitter 00:24:19.079 --> 00:24:21.900 feed as the canonical example of statements that 00:24:21.900 --> 00:24:24.539 sound very deep, but are essentially meaningless 00:24:24.539 --> 00:24:28.440 upon close inspection. To be the canonical example 00:24:28.440 --> 00:24:32.579 of pseudo profound bullshit is. That's quite 00:24:32.579 --> 00:24:34.500 a distinction. It really highlights the extreme 00:24:34.500 --> 00:24:37.880 polarization. To some, his tweets are nuggets 00:24:37.880 --> 00:24:41.279 of profound wisdom. To others, they're just word 00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:44.339 salad. But despite all of this, the bullshit 00:24:44.339 --> 00:24:46.799 studies, the lawsuits, the constant debunking 00:24:46.799 --> 00:24:49.920 from physicists, he is still incredibly connected 00:24:49.920 --> 00:24:52.299 to the cultural elite. He is. For example, he 00:24:52.299 --> 00:24:54.259 had a very deep friendship with Michael Jackson 00:24:54.259 --> 00:24:57.119 for 20 years. I remember that. After Jackson 00:24:57.119 --> 00:24:59.789 died. Chopra had some very strong words, didn't 00:24:59.789 --> 00:25:02.230 he? He did. He went on TV and critiqued what 00:25:02.230 --> 00:25:04.950 he called the cult of drug pushing doctors, who 00:25:04.950 --> 00:25:07.250 he felt had these codependent relationships with 00:25:07.250 --> 00:25:09.390 addicted celebrities. Which harkens all the way 00:25:09.390 --> 00:25:11.690 back to his original reason for leaving Western 00:25:11.690 --> 00:25:14.109 medicine. Exactly. The feeling that doctors were 00:25:14.109 --> 00:25:16.809 just legalized drug pushers. It's a consistent 00:25:16.809 --> 00:25:18.789 theme for him. And he's associated with Lady 00:25:18.789 --> 00:25:21.769 Gaga and countless other massive stars. He really 00:25:21.769 --> 00:25:23.769 is deeply ingrained in the culture. Which brings 00:25:23.769 --> 00:25:25.609 us to the synthesis of this whole deep dive. 00:25:25.769 --> 00:25:28.900 We're left with two very distinct, almost irreconcilable 00:25:28.900 --> 00:25:31.619 pictures of Deepak Chopra. Right. Picture A. 00:25:32.140 --> 00:25:35.480 He's a pioneer. He integrated ancient wisdom 00:25:35.480 --> 00:25:38.519 with modern needs. He gave people hope. He gave 00:25:38.519 --> 00:25:40.700 them a sense of agency over their own health. 00:25:40.779 --> 00:25:43.640 And he reminded a very mechanistic medical system 00:25:43.640 --> 00:25:46.759 that how we think and feel actually matters. 00:25:46.819 --> 00:25:49.259 A very valid perspective. And then there's picture 00:25:49.259 --> 00:25:52.059 B. He's a wealthy entrepreneur who sells false 00:25:52.059 --> 00:25:55.460 hope through distorted science. A man who misuses 00:25:55.460 --> 00:25:58.599 terms like quantum physics to sound authoritative 00:25:58.599 --> 00:26:01.319 while charging $10 ,000 for anti -aging creams. 00:26:01.480 --> 00:26:04.500 It's a really hard reconciliation. Yeah. But 00:26:04.500 --> 00:26:06.579 maybe the central question for us isn't, is he 00:26:06.579 --> 00:26:09.259 right about quantum physics? Because the answer 00:26:09.259 --> 00:26:11.700 to that seems to be a pretty clear no from the 00:26:11.700 --> 00:26:13.500 physics community. Right. The more interesting 00:26:13.500 --> 00:26:15.619 question might be, is the value of a treatment 00:26:15.619 --> 00:26:18.660 found in its scientific mechanism or in the result 00:26:18.660 --> 00:26:22.180 the patient feels? That's it. If Chopra's metaphors, 00:26:22.180 --> 00:26:24.839 however scientifically inaccurate they are, make 00:26:24.839 --> 00:26:26.839 people start meditating, reduce their stress, 00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:29.160 eat better, and feel more in control of their 00:26:29.160 --> 00:26:32.279 lives. Does the bad physics ultimately matter? 00:26:32.440 --> 00:26:34.740 That's the sticky part. If a lie makes you well, 00:26:34.900 --> 00:26:37.220 is it a bad lie? That is the ethical dilemma 00:26:37.220 --> 00:26:39.599 of the placebo effect right there. In a nutshell. 00:26:39.819 --> 00:26:41.759 So I want to leave everyone with a final thought 00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:44.799 to mull over. We talked about his claim that 00:26:44.799 --> 00:26:48.000 aging is a learned behavior. It sounds absolutely 00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:50.980 crazy on the surface. But just for a second, 00:26:51.099 --> 00:26:54.680 if we accept his premise, what would happen if 00:26:54.680 --> 00:26:57.500 we as a culture simply decided to unlearn it? 00:26:58.410 --> 00:27:01.329 What would society actually look like if we genuinely 00:27:01.329 --> 00:27:04.369 accepted consciousness as the primary creator 00:27:04.369 --> 00:27:06.529 of reality? It would certainly change a lot more 00:27:06.529 --> 00:27:08.390 than just our medical bills. It would indeed. 00:27:09.150 --> 00:27:10.890 Thanks for unpacking this with us today. It's 00:27:10.890 --> 00:27:12.730 been a wild ride through the quantum body. It 00:27:12.730 --> 00:27:14.329 was a pleasure. We'll see you on the next Deep 00:27:14.329 --> 00:27:14.589 Dive.