WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.960 Welcome back to the Deep Dive. It is January 00:00:01.960 --> 00:00:06.160 2026 and today we are looking at a story that 00:00:06.160 --> 00:00:09.080 feels like it just it encompasses the entire 00:00:09.080 --> 00:00:12.279 bizarre history of modern celebrity culture. 00:00:12.500 --> 00:00:17.880 We're talking the highest highs to well the strangest, 00:00:17.880 --> 00:00:20.219 quietest lows. It's a real roller coaster. It 00:00:20.219 --> 00:00:21.760 is. I mean, if you were to drive through the 00:00:21.760 --> 00:00:24.019 Cotswolds in England right now, you know, past 00:00:24.019 --> 00:00:26.260 the rolling hills, the old stone fences, like 00:00:26.260 --> 00:00:28.800 classic gloomy weather, you might just stumble 00:00:28.800 --> 00:00:31.100 upon a scene that, I don't know, maybe 10 years 00:00:31.100 --> 00:00:32.759 ago would have sounded like a complete fever 00:00:32.759 --> 00:00:35.619 dream. It really is a fascinating image to conjure 00:00:35.619 --> 00:00:37.539 up. Completely surreal. Right. I mean, you have 00:00:37.539 --> 00:00:40.359 a woman who was, for a time, maybe the most visible 00:00:40.359 --> 00:00:42.899 person on American television, period. Someone 00:00:42.899 --> 00:00:45.659 who was literally in our living rooms every single 00:00:45.659 --> 00:00:48.500 day. Every single afternoon. And now she is quite 00:00:48.500 --> 00:00:51.380 literally across an ocean, apparently surrounded 00:00:51.380 --> 00:00:53.740 by chickens, having physically removed herself 00:00:53.740 --> 00:00:56.659 from the entire Hollywood ecosystem. We're talking, 00:00:56.740 --> 00:00:59.439 of course, about Ellen DeGeneres. It's the ultimate 00:00:59.439 --> 00:01:02.079 plot twist in a career full of them. I mean, 00:01:02.079 --> 00:01:03.920 if you look at where we are right now in early 00:01:03.920 --> 00:01:07.260 2026, the picture is almost unrecognizable compared 00:01:07.260 --> 00:01:09.579 to the height of her empire. Not even close. 00:01:10.180 --> 00:01:12.659 We're talking about a figure who received the 00:01:12.659 --> 00:01:15.459 Presidential Medal of Freedom from Barack Obama. 00:01:16.109 --> 00:01:18.549 I mean, think about that honor. Someone who hosted 00:01:18.549 --> 00:01:21.409 the Oscars not once, but twice. She wasn't just 00:01:21.409 --> 00:01:23.790 a talk show host. She was the queen of nice. 00:01:24.129 --> 00:01:26.909 And now the narrative is about exile. It's about 00:01:26.909 --> 00:01:30.650 this complete reinvention of life. And you can 00:01:30.650 --> 00:01:32.810 feel this lingering sense of bitterness. She 00:01:32.810 --> 00:01:34.569 actually said it herself recently, didn't she? 00:01:34.629 --> 00:01:36.469 That she was kicked out of show business. That's 00:01:36.469 --> 00:01:38.650 the quote. And that feeling, that sentiment is 00:01:38.650 --> 00:01:40.670 what we really need to unpack today. Our mission 00:01:40.670 --> 00:01:43.189 here isn't just to, you know, recite a biography 00:01:43.189 --> 00:01:45.629 from Wikipedia. We want to understand the... 00:01:45.640 --> 00:01:48.700 mechanics of a rise and fall that drastic. How 00:01:48.700 --> 00:01:51.900 do you go from being the most beloved figure 00:01:51.900 --> 00:01:55.260 in daytime TV? I mean, truly Oprah's heir apparent 00:01:55.260 --> 00:01:58.519 to a cultural pariah. And then finally to this, 00:01:58.540 --> 00:02:01.239 this expat retirement in the English countryside. 00:02:01.319 --> 00:02:04.340 It's a huge question. And to tackle it, we have 00:02:04.340 --> 00:02:06.900 a really comprehensive stack of sources today. 00:02:07.000 --> 00:02:09.780 We're looking at biographical records going way 00:02:09.780 --> 00:02:14.120 back to the 1950s, career retrospectives, and, 00:02:14.199 --> 00:02:16.139 of course, financial reports from Forbes and 00:02:16.139 --> 00:02:19.300 The Sunday Times that go right up to 2025. And 00:02:19.300 --> 00:02:21.000 we also have all the extensive news coverage, 00:02:21.199 --> 00:02:24.039 especially from outlets like BuzzFeed News, surrounding 00:02:24.039 --> 00:02:26.719 the workplace investigations that really dismantled 00:02:26.719 --> 00:02:29.039 her empire. Exactly. But I think what's going 00:02:29.039 --> 00:02:30.979 to surprise people, you know, when we get into 00:02:30.979 --> 00:02:32.969 it is that this story doesn't really. start in 00:02:32.969 --> 00:02:35.729 a comedy club in the 80s no not at all it starts 00:02:35.729 --> 00:02:38.740 much earlier and much deeper in the psyche To 00:02:38.740 --> 00:02:41.719 understand why she's in England in 2026, essentially, 00:02:41.840 --> 00:02:44.639 you know, hiding away from all the noise, you 00:02:44.639 --> 00:02:46.460 have to understand the silence she grew up in. 00:02:46.539 --> 00:02:48.319 So let's rewind the tape. We need to go back 00:02:48.319 --> 00:02:51.139 to Metairie, Louisiana in 1958. This is where 00:02:51.139 --> 00:02:53.860 Ellen Lee DeGeneres begins. Right. And on the 00:02:53.860 --> 00:02:56.800 surface, it looks like a very standard mid -century 00:02:56.800 --> 00:02:59.719 suburban upbringing. She's born in 58. Her mother, 00:02:59.860 --> 00:03:02.620 Betty, was a speech therapist. Her father, Elliot, 00:03:02.879 --> 00:03:05.020 was an insurance agent. They were Christian scientists. 00:03:05.379 --> 00:03:08.000 Pretty normal stuff. Pretty normal stuff. But 00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:10.139 if you dig into the psychological profile of 00:03:10.139 --> 00:03:12.120 the family, particularly her father, Elliot, 00:03:12.360 --> 00:03:15.659 you find what I'd call the skeleton key for understanding 00:03:15.659 --> 00:03:18.800 the entire Ellen brand that comes decades later. 00:03:19.060 --> 00:03:21.280 I remember reading about this in the biographical 00:03:21.280 --> 00:03:24.500 notes. The way she describes her father is fascinating 00:03:24.500 --> 00:03:27.539 and a little unsettling. It wasn't just that 00:03:27.539 --> 00:03:29.740 he was a nice guy. It was something more like... 00:03:29.819 --> 00:03:32.159 Almost pathological, isn't it? Pathological is 00:03:32.159 --> 00:03:34.319 absolutely the right word. In various interviews 00:03:34.319 --> 00:03:36.879 over the years, Ellen has described Elliot as 00:03:36.879 --> 00:03:40.780 a very fearful man. But specifically, he was 00:03:40.780 --> 00:03:43.000 described as someone who physically couldn't 00:03:43.000 --> 00:03:45.520 hear or engage with anything unpleasant. Wow. 00:03:45.699 --> 00:03:48.240 If something was messy or emotional or difficult 00:03:48.240 --> 00:03:50.740 like an argument or a tragedy or just bad news, 00:03:50.919 --> 00:03:54.629 he just... He tuned it out. He couldn't handle 00:03:54.629 --> 00:03:57.210 it. He would literally act as if it wasn't happening. 00:03:57.370 --> 00:03:59.550 So he had this like internal filter that just 00:03:59.550 --> 00:04:02.270 blocked out all the bad stuff. Exactly. He created 00:04:02.270 --> 00:04:04.610 a bubble, a very fragile one, where everything 00:04:04.610 --> 00:04:06.870 had to be fine. He wouldn't acknowledge pain. 00:04:07.129 --> 00:04:08.949 Now, you know, think about that for a second. 00:04:09.129 --> 00:04:12.750 If you are a child and you're raised by a primary 00:04:12.750 --> 00:04:15.590 caregiver who deals with the world by actively 00:04:15.590 --> 00:04:18.189 ignoring the ugly parts. You learn a very specific 00:04:18.189 --> 00:04:20.610 lesson. You learn a very specific lesson about 00:04:20.610 --> 00:04:23.399 survival. You learn that pleasantness is safety 00:04:23.399 --> 00:04:26.420 and unpleasantness is a threat that must be ignored 00:04:26.420 --> 00:04:28.980 at all costs. Which is just incredibly interesting 00:04:28.980 --> 00:04:31.639 when you fast forward 40 years. Ellen builds 00:04:31.639 --> 00:04:35.100 a billion dollar empire entirely on the concepts 00:04:35.100 --> 00:04:37.839 of be kind and happiness. It's the same bubble. 00:04:38.019 --> 00:04:39.819 You have to wonder if that brand wasn't just 00:04:39.819 --> 00:04:42.000 a marketing strategy, but a direct inheritance 00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:44.660 or maybe even a trauma response. It's a very 00:04:44.660 --> 00:04:46.939 plausible connection. I mean, you could argue 00:04:46.939 --> 00:04:49.060 she essentially recreated her father's bubble 00:04:49.060 --> 00:04:52.060 on a global scale. The message of her show was, 00:04:52.100 --> 00:04:54.660 we don't do unpleasantness here, we dance, we 00:04:54.660 --> 00:04:56.819 give away cars, we are happy. But the tragedy 00:04:56.819 --> 00:04:59.180 is, you can't actually filter out the world forever. 00:04:59.480 --> 00:05:02.379 The ugly parts always find a way in. And sadly 00:05:02.379 --> 00:05:05.519 for Ellen, the ugly parts found her very early 00:05:05.519 --> 00:05:07.800 on. Yeah, we have to talk about the trauma she 00:05:07.800 --> 00:05:10.639 experienced as a teenager. This is a heavy pivot, 00:05:10.699 --> 00:05:13.420 but it's absolutely crucial to the record. Her 00:05:13.420 --> 00:05:17.899 parents divorced in 1974. Her mom, Betty, remarries 00:05:17.899 --> 00:05:21.509 a man named Roy Grusendorf. And? They move. They 00:05:21.509 --> 00:05:23.569 leave New Orleans and go to a place called Atlanta, 00:05:23.689 --> 00:05:27.069 Texas. And this is where things go very dark. 00:05:27.250 --> 00:05:29.589 How old was she at this point? She's about 15 00:05:29.589 --> 00:05:33.129 or 16 years old. And the context here makes the 00:05:33.129 --> 00:05:36.490 abuse even more heinous. Her mother, Betty, had 00:05:36.490 --> 00:05:38.350 just been diagnosed with breast cancer. Right. 00:05:38.490 --> 00:05:41.689 And this stepfather, Roy, used that diagnosis 00:05:41.689 --> 00:05:44.629 as a tool for manipulation. He told Ellen he 00:05:44.629 --> 00:05:47.189 needed to examine her breasts for lumps to make 00:05:47.189 --> 00:05:49.410 sure she didn't have cancer too. That is just... 00:05:49.560 --> 00:05:52.459 It's classic predator behavior, using the fear 00:05:52.459 --> 00:05:54.480 of a parent's death to break down every conceivable 00:05:54.480 --> 00:05:57.600 boundary. It's grooming 101. And it didn't stop 00:05:57.600 --> 00:05:59.980 there. It escalated from these examinations to 00:05:59.980 --> 00:06:01.660 him actually trying to break down her bedroom 00:06:01.660 --> 00:06:03.839 door to sexually assault her. Ellen actually 00:06:03.839 --> 00:06:05.939 had to run away from home. She spent a night 00:06:05.939 --> 00:06:07.740 in a hospital just to escape him because she 00:06:07.740 --> 00:06:10.240 had nowhere else to go. But here is the part 00:06:10.240 --> 00:06:12.740 that adds another layer of tragedy and I think 00:06:12.740 --> 00:06:14.959 really calcifies her character for what's to 00:06:14.959 --> 00:06:17.139 come. This is when she told her mom. This is 00:06:17.139 --> 00:06:18.759 when she eventually told her mother about the 00:06:18.759 --> 00:06:21.420 abuse, and her mother didn't believe her. That's 00:06:21.420 --> 00:06:23.699 the detail that always gets me. Her mom stayed 00:06:23.699 --> 00:06:27.060 married to this guy for another 18 years? 18. 00:06:27.279 --> 00:06:30.560 She did. It wasn't until much, much later, when 00:06:30.560 --> 00:06:32.480 Roy's stories kept changing and falling apart, 00:06:32.839 --> 00:06:35.319 that Betty finally realized Ellen had been telling 00:06:35.319 --> 00:06:38.540 the truth all along. But imagine the isolation 00:06:38.540 --> 00:06:41.399 of that moment for a teenager. Unimaginable. 00:06:41.439 --> 00:06:43.959 You've been abused, and the one person who is 00:06:43.959 --> 00:06:46.579 supposed to protect you, your mother, chooses 00:06:46.579 --> 00:06:49.879 the abuser's narrative over yours because it's 00:06:49.879 --> 00:06:52.899 easier or nicer than confronting the horrific 00:06:52.899 --> 00:06:55.339 truth. It forces a kind of fierce independence, 00:06:55.660 --> 00:06:58.019 doesn't it? You realize, okay, nobody is coming 00:06:58.019 --> 00:07:01.699 to save me. I have to save myself. Exactly. And 00:07:01.699 --> 00:07:04.160 you can see that hustle born out of that moment 00:07:04.160 --> 00:07:06.500 in her early work life. She didn't have a safety 00:07:06.500 --> 00:07:08.300 net. She dropped out of the University of New 00:07:08.300 --> 00:07:10.139 Orleans after just one semester and just starts 00:07:10.139 --> 00:07:13.920 grinding. The list of jobs she had is like the 00:07:13.920 --> 00:07:16.829 lyrics to a working class anthem. Laps, it really 00:07:16.829 --> 00:07:19.389 is. I was looking at it earlier. She was a clerical 00:07:19.389 --> 00:07:22.370 worker at a law firm. She worked at JCPenney. 00:07:22.490 --> 00:07:25.310 She was a waitress at TGI Fridays. She's a house 00:07:25.310 --> 00:07:27.529 painter, a bartender. A house painter. It's actually 00:07:27.529 --> 00:07:29.870 kind of perfect because it gave her this every 00:07:29.870 --> 00:07:32.649 woman perspective. When she eventually started 00:07:32.649 --> 00:07:34.810 doing comedy, she wasn't talking about abstract 00:07:34.810 --> 00:07:37.290 concepts or, you know, political theory. She 00:07:37.290 --> 00:07:39.209 was talking about the weird stuff that happens 00:07:39.209 --> 00:07:41.389 when you're painting a house or serving mozzarella 00:07:41.389 --> 00:07:43.829 sticks. That relatability was her superpower 00:07:43.829 --> 00:07:46.949 from day one. She starts performing at Clyde's 00:07:46.949 --> 00:07:50.129 Comedy Club in New Orleans in 1981. And she's 00:07:50.129 --> 00:07:52.230 citing influences you'd expect, like Woody Allen, 00:07:52.430 --> 00:07:55.069 Steve Martin, Lucille Ball, Bob Newhart. A great 00:07:55.069 --> 00:07:58.290 lineup. A great lineup. But the key differentiator 00:07:58.290 --> 00:08:00.589 for her, especially in the 80s comedy scene, 00:08:00.670 --> 00:08:03.829 which could be pretty rough, was that she was 00:08:03.829 --> 00:08:06.959 clean. Right. She wasn't working blue. She wasn't 00:08:06.959 --> 00:08:09.040 relying on shock value or offensive material. 00:08:09.240 --> 00:08:12.319 It was all observational. And that quirky, clean, 00:08:12.500 --> 00:08:15.139 observational style is what got her the golden 00:08:15.139 --> 00:08:19.199 ticket. In 1986, she gets booked on The Tonight 00:08:19.199 --> 00:08:21.800 Show starring Johnny Carson. And we have to pause 00:08:21.800 --> 00:08:23.860 here. For our listeners who might be younger 00:08:23.860 --> 00:08:26.240 or who only know the Jimmy Fallon era of late 00:08:26.240 --> 00:08:29.220 night, it is impossible to overstate what this 00:08:29.220 --> 00:08:31.220 meant in the 80s. It was the kingmaker. There 00:08:31.220 --> 00:08:33.600 was no bigger stage. If Johnny Carson liked you, 00:08:33.679 --> 00:08:35.600 you were made. And if he called you over to the 00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:38.440 couch after your set, that was it. Your career 00:08:38.440 --> 00:08:40.700 was launched. And Ellen got the call to the couch. 00:08:40.759 --> 00:08:43.559 It was this huge validation of her entire approach. 00:08:44.159 --> 00:08:46.580 You can be funny without being mean. You can 00:08:46.580 --> 00:08:48.629 be funny without being dirty. Which launched 00:08:48.629 --> 00:08:51.110 her directly into the sitcom era. She did a few 00:08:51.110 --> 00:08:53.029 short -lived things. First, Open House, Laurie 00:08:53.029 --> 00:08:56.690 Hill. But then comes The Big Break, 1994. The 00:08:56.690 --> 00:08:58.809 show was originally called These Friends of Mine. 00:08:58.970 --> 00:09:01.450 Which is such a 90s title. It is, yeah. And it 00:09:01.450 --> 00:09:03.990 eventually just becomes Ellen. And it was huge. 00:09:04.309 --> 00:09:06.590 People were calling it the female Seinfeld. It 00:09:06.590 --> 00:09:09.529 was just funny observational stuff about a group 00:09:09.529 --> 00:09:11.909 of friends living in Los Angeles. It was safe. 00:09:12.049 --> 00:09:14.250 It was popular. It was comfortable. But then 00:09:14.250 --> 00:09:18.649 we hit 1997. And the comfortable, safe world 00:09:18.649 --> 00:09:21.529 of Ellen causes a cultural earthquake. The puppy 00:09:21.529 --> 00:09:23.690 episode. I mean, what a moment. I feel like we 00:09:23.690 --> 00:09:25.370 have to set the stage for this, for how monumental 00:09:25.370 --> 00:09:29.129 it was. In 1997, there were no openly gay lead 00:09:29.129 --> 00:09:31.710 characters on American network television. It 00:09:31.710 --> 00:09:35.250 just wasn't done. Zero. And Ellen decides not 00:09:35.250 --> 00:09:36.730 only is she going to come out in her personal 00:09:36.730 --> 00:09:38.610 life, but her character is going to come out 00:09:38.610 --> 00:09:41.240 on the show. at the same time. The coordination 00:09:41.240 --> 00:09:43.639 of this whole thing was massive. This wasn't 00:09:43.639 --> 00:09:45.460 a spur -of -the -moment decision. This was a 00:09:45.460 --> 00:09:48.679 media blitz. She's on the cover of Time magazine 00:09:48.679 --> 00:09:51.559 with that iconic simple headline, Yep, I'm gay. 00:09:51.720 --> 00:09:53.539 And she's on the Oprah Winfrey show, which was 00:09:53.539 --> 00:09:55.639 the biggest platform on Earth. And then the episode 00:09:55.639 --> 00:09:58.620 itself airs. And Oprah actually plays the therapist 00:09:58.620 --> 00:10:01.500 in the episode that Ellen's character comes out 00:10:01.500 --> 00:10:03.980 to. Yeah. A brilliant piece of casting. The ratings 00:10:03.980 --> 00:10:06.500 were just sky high. 42 million people watched 00:10:06.500 --> 00:10:09.659 it. It was a massive cultural moment. But then 00:10:09.659 --> 00:10:13.440 the hangover. The backlash was immediate and 00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:16.019 severe. We tend to look back at it now through 00:10:16.019 --> 00:10:18.240 the lens of progress. Oh, she broke the barrier. 00:10:18.500 --> 00:10:20.840 But at the time, it felt like a career suicide 00:10:20.840 --> 00:10:23.820 mission. A lot of people thought it was. Advertisers 00:10:23.820 --> 00:10:26.299 like Chrysler pulled their ads. Conservative 00:10:26.299 --> 00:10:28.720 groups like the American Family Association went 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:33.139 absolutely nuclear. They protested ABC. And the 00:10:33.139 --> 00:10:35.179 show itself was canceled after the fifth season 00:10:35.179 --> 00:10:37.220 because the ratings dropped. And they dropped 00:10:37.220 --> 00:10:39.200 in part because the show stopped being about 00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:41.340 nothing like Seinfeld and started being very 00:10:41.340 --> 00:10:43.820 much about being gay, which audiences in 1998 00:10:43.820 --> 00:10:46.340 just weren't quite ready for every single week. 00:10:46.440 --> 00:10:49.240 And Ellen herself went into a deep, deep depression. 00:10:49.519 --> 00:10:51.820 She's spoken about this a lot. She felt like 00:10:51.820 --> 00:10:54.279 she had been punished for her honesty. She went 00:10:54.279 --> 00:10:56.879 from being America's funny, quirky friend to 00:10:56.879 --> 00:10:59.340 being this lightning rod for controversy. She 00:10:59.340 --> 00:11:02.070 felt completely rejected. Totally. And this is 00:11:02.070 --> 00:11:04.149 all happening while she was in a very high profile 00:11:04.149 --> 00:11:06.649 relationship with the actress Anne Hetchy. So 00:11:06.649 --> 00:11:08.950 the tabloids were just relentless. Her career 00:11:08.950 --> 00:11:11.889 basically crashed. And usually in Hollywood, 00:11:12.029 --> 00:11:14.470 when a sitcom star crashes and burns like that, 00:11:14.529 --> 00:11:16.370 they fade away. Right. They become a trivia answer. 00:11:16.549 --> 00:11:18.070 Hey, remember that lady who came out and got 00:11:18.070 --> 00:11:19.889 her show canceled? That's the end of the story. 00:11:20.049 --> 00:11:23.649 But Ellen managed one of the most improbable 00:11:23.649 --> 00:11:26.230 second acts in entertainment history. And it 00:11:26.230 --> 00:11:29.409 all started with a fish. Finding Nemo, 2003. 00:11:30.360 --> 00:11:32.240 This is such a great story about how careers 00:11:32.240 --> 00:11:35.139 can turn on these tiny, unexpected moments. So 00:11:35.139 --> 00:11:37.220 the director, Andrew Stanton, was writing this 00:11:37.220 --> 00:11:39.600 character, Dory, who had short -term memory loss. 00:11:39.860 --> 00:11:41.799 He was struggling with the writing. He had the 00:11:41.799 --> 00:11:44.799 TV on in the background. And a rerun of Ellen 00:11:44.799 --> 00:11:46.700 was on. And he was just watching her, right? 00:11:46.779 --> 00:11:48.799 He was just watching her do her thing, her monologue. 00:11:49.200 --> 00:11:52.320 And he watched her change the subject five times 00:11:52.320 --> 00:11:55.899 in a single sentence. Just that scattered, rambling, 00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:59.580 but incredibly charming delivery. That is so 00:11:59.580 --> 00:12:02.059 specific. I love it. And he thought, that's it. 00:12:02.500 --> 00:12:04.460 That's the fish. He cast her on the spot in his 00:12:04.460 --> 00:12:06.399 mind. And it worked. I mean, it didn't just work. 00:12:06.440 --> 00:12:09.480 It was iconic. She won a Saturn Award for voice 00:12:09.480 --> 00:12:12.919 acting, which is incredibly rare. It reintroduced 00:12:12.919 --> 00:12:15.779 her to a massive audience. And crucially, it 00:12:15.779 --> 00:12:18.120 reminded everyone, oh, right, she's funny. She's 00:12:18.120 --> 00:12:21.149 charming. We like her. And Dory's innocent. You 00:12:21.149 --> 00:12:24.269 can't hate a little blue fish. It totally depoliticized 00:12:24.269 --> 00:12:27.610 her image. It did. It completely washed away 00:12:27.610 --> 00:12:30.870 the angry activist label that the tabloids and 00:12:30.870 --> 00:12:32.429 the right -wing press had tried to pin on her 00:12:32.429 --> 00:12:34.870 in the late 90s. And that goodwill, that comeback, 00:12:35.149 --> 00:12:38.269 paved the way for the juggernaut, The Ellen DeGeneres 00:12:38.269 --> 00:12:41.399 Show. Launching in September 2003. And you have 00:12:41.399 --> 00:12:43.820 to remember, the daytime landscape was crowded 00:12:43.820 --> 00:12:45.740 back then. You had Sharon Osbourne launching 00:12:45.740 --> 00:12:48.320 a show, Rita Rudner. It wasn't a guaranteed win 00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:50.820 by any means. Not at all. But Ellen brought something 00:12:50.820 --> 00:12:52.980 different to the table. She brought that nice 00:12:52.980 --> 00:12:55.740 factor back, but amplified it times a thousand. 00:12:55.919 --> 00:12:58.139 It was the dancing. It was the pranks on celebrities. 00:12:58.519 --> 00:13:02.600 And, of course, the extreme generosity. The dancing 00:13:02.600 --> 00:13:05.019 became such a thing. That was her trademark. 00:13:05.220 --> 00:13:07.059 She would dance through the audience at the start 00:13:07.059 --> 00:13:10.399 of every single show. It looked like pure, unadulterated 00:13:10.399 --> 00:13:13.059 joy. It felt like you were invited to a party. 00:13:13.389 --> 00:13:15.870 But reading through the sources now, years later, 00:13:16.070 --> 00:13:18.350 she admitted that the dancing eventually became 00:13:18.350 --> 00:13:20.929 a real burden. That is the trap of the persona, 00:13:21.110 --> 00:13:23.350 isn't it? She said she felt like a performing 00:13:23.350 --> 00:13:26.389 monkey sometimes. Even if she was sad, even if 00:13:26.389 --> 00:13:28.509 she was tired, even if she was having the worst 00:13:28.509 --> 00:13:30.950 day of her life, she had to come out and dance. 00:13:31.190 --> 00:13:34.470 If your brand is unrelenting joy, you aren't 00:13:34.470 --> 00:13:36.830 allowed to have a bad day. But the formula worked. 00:13:36.990 --> 00:13:40.519 My God, did it work. The show won 25 Emmys in 00:13:40.519 --> 00:13:42.799 just its first three seasons. That's unheard 00:13:42.799 --> 00:13:46.919 of. In total, she racked up 33 daytime Emmys. 00:13:47.320 --> 00:13:50.100 She won more People's Choice Awards than any 00:13:50.100 --> 00:13:52.580 other individual in history. She became a kind 00:13:52.580 --> 00:13:54.919 of comfort in chief for the country. Think about 00:13:54.919 --> 00:13:57.019 the timing of when she hosted these big events. 00:13:57.299 --> 00:14:00.120 She hosted the Emmys right after 9 -11. And then 00:14:00.120 --> 00:14:01.720 again, right after Hurricane Katrina. Exactly. 00:14:02.299 --> 00:14:04.659 When the country was hurting, when we felt vulnerable, 00:14:04.840 --> 00:14:06.820 they didn't turn to a newsman. They turned to 00:14:06.820 --> 00:14:09.860 Ellen to make it feel OK again. That 2001 Emmy 00:14:09.860 --> 00:14:13.179 performance post 9 -11 was just masterful. It 00:14:13.179 --> 00:14:15.360 was so delicate. She had that famous line, what 00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:17.700 would bug the Taliban more than seeing a gay 00:14:17.700 --> 00:14:20.740 woman in a suit surrounded by Jews? It broke 00:14:20.740 --> 00:14:23.019 the tension perfectly. It was this moment of 00:14:23.019 --> 00:14:25.360 defiance, but also of healing. It gave people 00:14:25.360 --> 00:14:27.799 permission to laugh again. And then, of course, 00:14:27.899 --> 00:14:31.120 the Oscars. She hosted in 2007, becoming the 00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:34.059 first openly gay person to do so. And then she 00:14:34.059 --> 00:14:36.629 did it again in 2014. We have to talk about the 00:14:36.629 --> 00:14:39.529 selfie. The selfie, March 2014. It feels like 00:14:39.529 --> 00:14:41.669 this moment of like peak social media innocence, 00:14:41.870 --> 00:14:43.649 doesn't it? It really does. She just gets up 00:14:43.649 --> 00:14:45.570 from the stage, walks into the audience and gathers 00:14:45.570 --> 00:14:47.929 Meryl Streep, Bradley Cooper, Jennifer Lawrence, 00:14:48.070 --> 00:14:50.690 Kevin Spacey, Brad Pitt, Julia Roberts. It was 00:14:50.690 --> 00:14:53.710 this Avengers level assembly of celebrity. And 00:14:53.710 --> 00:14:56.289 she crashed Twitter. Literally. Yeah. The platform 00:14:56.289 --> 00:14:58.690 went down. It became the most retweeted tweet 00:14:58.690 --> 00:15:01.210 ever at the time. Over 3 .4 million retweets. 00:15:01.210 --> 00:15:03.570 It was a moment where her power seemed just. 00:15:04.539 --> 00:15:06.259 Absolute. She could command the biggest stars 00:15:06.259 --> 00:15:08.299 in the world to huddle together for a bit, and 00:15:08.299 --> 00:15:10.460 the entire internet would stop and applaud. And 00:15:10.460 --> 00:15:13.500 looking back from where we are now, in 2026, 00:15:13.639 --> 00:15:16.139 that moment really feels like the summit. That 00:15:16.139 --> 00:15:18.419 was the top of the mountain. It was. Because 00:15:18.419 --> 00:15:20.519 while she was being the queen of nice on television, 00:15:20.799 --> 00:15:24.179 she was also, behind the scenes, becoming a massive 00:15:24.179 --> 00:15:26.750 business tycoon. The business of being Ellen 00:15:26.750 --> 00:15:30.549 was incredibly lucrative. By 2020, Forbes estimated 00:15:30.549 --> 00:15:33.350 she was earning $84 million a year. New year. 00:15:33.529 --> 00:15:37.929 With a net worth of $370 million. By May 2025, 00:15:38.570 --> 00:15:41.250 the Sunday Times Rich List in the UK had her 00:15:41.250 --> 00:15:44.370 net worth at £363 million, which is even more. 00:15:44.529 --> 00:15:46.830 And she diversified so smartly. It wasn't just 00:15:46.830 --> 00:15:49.929 the show's salary. It was the Edie Ellen DeGeneres 00:15:49.929 --> 00:15:53.860 lifestyle brand. Home goods, apparel, stuff for 00:15:53.860 --> 00:15:55.820 pets. Right. She had major partnerships with 00:15:55.820 --> 00:15:58.580 PetSmart, with QVC, and that big clothing line 00:15:58.580 --> 00:16:01.179 at Walmart called EV1. She was monetizing her 00:16:01.179 --> 00:16:03.259 taste level. The whole brand was, you want to 00:16:03.259 --> 00:16:05.159 live like Ellen? Here's the throw pillow and 00:16:05.159 --> 00:16:07.500 the dog bed to do it. And real estate. We cannot 00:16:07.500 --> 00:16:09.360 talk about Ellen's wealth without talking about 00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:12.259 houses. She and her wife, Portia de Rossi, were 00:16:12.259 --> 00:16:14.340 flipping luxury homes in Montecito and Beverly 00:16:14.340 --> 00:16:16.539 Hills like they were pancakes. It wasn't a hobby. 00:16:17.019 --> 00:16:19.559 No, it was a serious high -level business for 00:16:19.559 --> 00:16:21.919 them. They weren't just buying houses. They were 00:16:21.919 --> 00:16:23.600 renovating and flipping them with the aggression 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:27.799 of a hedge fund. Just in August of 2024, they 00:16:27.799 --> 00:16:31.940 sold a property in Carpentaria for $96 million. 00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:35.559 $96 million. That is just staggering wealth. 00:16:35.700 --> 00:16:38.039 That is nation -state money. But there were some 00:16:38.039 --> 00:16:40.710 cracks in the armor even back then. The sources 00:16:40.710 --> 00:16:42.750 point out this recurring conflict between her 00:16:42.750 --> 00:16:45.750 stated values and her business deals. Like she 00:16:45.750 --> 00:16:48.629 was a vocal vegan and a huge animal rights activist, 00:16:48.809 --> 00:16:51.570 PETA's Woman of the Year in 2009. Right. And 00:16:51.570 --> 00:16:53.870 then she became the face of CoverGirl. And CoverGirl's 00:16:53.870 --> 00:16:56.070 parent company, Procter & Gamble, was notorious 00:16:56.070 --> 00:16:59.149 for testing on animals. Critics jumped on that 00:16:59.149 --> 00:17:01.610 immediately. It was a friction point. It suggested 00:17:01.610 --> 00:17:03.750 that maybe the brand and the person weren't perfectly 00:17:03.750 --> 00:17:06.029 aligned, that maybe the check was more important 00:17:06.029 --> 00:17:08.890 than the cause. And speaking of veganism. That 00:17:08.890 --> 00:17:11.309 changed too, didn't it? I remember in her 2018 00:17:11.309 --> 00:17:14.430 stand -up special Relatable, she confirmed she 00:17:14.430 --> 00:17:16.529 had stopped being vegan. Yeah, and her reasoning 00:17:16.529 --> 00:17:20.210 was so casual. She just said, for no reason, 00:17:20.230 --> 00:17:22.430 really. And that she'd just started eating eggs 00:17:22.430 --> 00:17:24.630 and fish again. Which is fine. People's diets 00:17:24.630 --> 00:17:27.269 change all the time. But symbolically, it felt 00:17:27.269 --> 00:17:29.450 like a loosening of the strict rules she had 00:17:29.450 --> 00:17:32.049 set for herself and her public image. And that's 00:17:32.049 --> 00:17:35.220 special. Relatable is actually a very important 00:17:35.220 --> 00:17:37.200 piece of foreshadowing for the whole collapse. 00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:40.480 In it, she jokes about how hard it is to be relatable 00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:43.200 when you're fabulously wealthy. She talks about 00:17:43.200 --> 00:17:45.960 having a butler. She actively spoofed her nice 00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:48.240 image. She was telling us she was basically saying 00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:50.220 this is a character. She was. She's telling the 00:17:50.220 --> 00:17:52.539 audience, hey, I'm not actually Dory the fish. 00:17:52.839 --> 00:17:55.700 I'm a very rich, very powerful woman who runs 00:17:55.700 --> 00:17:57.900 a major corporation. But the audience didn't 00:17:57.900 --> 00:17:59.759 really want to hear that. They wanted the fantasy. 00:17:59.940 --> 00:18:03.549 And then. 2020 happened, the year the Be Kind 00:18:03.549 --> 00:18:06.529 brand completely imploded. It started with a 00:18:06.529 --> 00:18:09.730 tweet, a single tweet in March 2020. The comedian 00:18:09.730 --> 00:18:12.730 Kevin T. Porter started a thread. He called Ellen 00:18:12.730 --> 00:18:15.650 notoriously one of the meanest people alive and 00:18:15.650 --> 00:18:18.289 asked for stories. And he pledged to donate money 00:18:18.289 --> 00:18:20.529 to a food bank for every story people shared. 00:18:20.710 --> 00:18:23.670 It was a brilliant hook. And the stories just 00:18:23.670 --> 00:18:27.930 poured in. It went viral instantly. Now, usually 00:18:27.930 --> 00:18:30.359 these Twitter threads burn out in a day. But 00:18:30.359 --> 00:18:32.579 this one didn't. It tapped into this deep vein 00:18:32.579 --> 00:18:34.700 of resentment that had clearly been building 00:18:34.700 --> 00:18:37.880 in Hollywood for years. It opened the floodgates. 00:18:37.960 --> 00:18:39.819 And look, Twitter threads are one thing. It's 00:18:39.819 --> 00:18:43.119 often just gossip. But then BuzzFeed News dropped 00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:46.759 a bombshell report in July 2020. This wasn't 00:18:46.759 --> 00:18:49.259 just Internet chatter anymore. No, this is investigative 00:18:49.259 --> 00:18:51.700 journalism. They were speaking with 10 former 00:18:51.700 --> 00:18:54.500 employees, mostly on the record, alleging a deeply 00:18:54.500 --> 00:18:57.420 toxic workplace. The details in that report were 00:18:57.420 --> 00:18:59.539 damning. They described an atmosphere. fear of 00:18:59.539 --> 00:19:02.299 racism, of fear, and of intimidation. There were 00:19:02.299 --> 00:19:04.900 serious allegations of sexual harassment by executive 00:19:04.900 --> 00:19:07.299 producers. People were getting fired for taking 00:19:07.299 --> 00:19:09.839 medical leave or bereavement leave. Just brutal 00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:12.400 stories. And specifically regarding Ellen, there 00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:14.000 were all these complaints that you weren't allowed 00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:15.880 to look her in the eye. That if you greeted her 00:19:15.880 --> 00:19:17.940 in the hallway, you could be reprimanded by a 00:19:17.940 --> 00:19:20.299 producer later. Now, you know, whether every 00:19:20.299 --> 00:19:22.720 single one of those anecdotes was true is debatable, 00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:25.019 but the sheer volume of them was undeniable. 00:19:25.220 --> 00:19:27.960 And the contrast was the killer. That was the 00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:31.099 thing. If her show was called The Jerry Springer 00:19:31.099 --> 00:19:34.460 Show or if she had a public persona like Gordon 00:19:34.460 --> 00:19:37.299 Ramsay, nobody would have cared. Not at all. 00:19:37.420 --> 00:19:40.640 But she ended every single episode for 19 years 00:19:40.640 --> 00:19:43.299 by looking into the camera and saying, be kind 00:19:43.299 --> 00:19:46.220 to one another. The hypocrisy was just too much 00:19:46.220 --> 00:19:48.319 for the public to swallow. It goes right back 00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:50.500 to that nice defense mechanism we talked about 00:19:50.500 --> 00:19:52.740 with her father. If you refuse to engage with 00:19:52.740 --> 00:19:54.920 unpleasantness, you might not be the one screaming 00:19:54.920 --> 00:19:58.059 at people. But you were creating a vacuum where 00:19:58.059 --> 00:20:00.920 other people, like her executive producers, can 00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:02.740 scream at people. You just don't want to know 00:20:02.740 --> 00:20:04.619 about it. You can claim plausible deniability. 00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:07.660 Exactly. It's the shadow side of avoiding conflict. 00:20:07.779 --> 00:20:10.500 You become an absentee landlord of your own workplace 00:20:10.500 --> 00:20:12.640 culture. So WarnerMedia, the parent company, 00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:15.299 launched an internal investigation. Three of 00:20:15.299 --> 00:20:17.680 our top executive producers, Ed Glavin, Kevin 00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:20.259 Lieben, and Jonathan Norman, were fired. And 00:20:20.259 --> 00:20:22.480 Ellen did an on -air apology to start season 00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:25.279 18. She took responsibility, saying, I learned 00:20:25.279 --> 00:20:27.079 that things happened here that never should have 00:20:27.079 --> 00:20:29.660 happened. But the damage was done. The magic 00:20:29.660 --> 00:20:31.759 was gone. You could feel it through the screen. 00:20:32.259 --> 00:20:35.259 In May 2021, she announced the show would end 00:20:35.259 --> 00:20:37.799 the following season. The final episode aired 00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:42.000 May 26, 2022. Jennifer Aniston was the guest. 00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:44.859 which was a nice full circle moment since she 00:20:44.859 --> 00:20:47.759 was the very first guest back in 2003. But it 00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:49.960 felt different. It felt like a retreat, not a 00:20:49.960 --> 00:20:52.720 celebration. It was a retreat. And Ellen herself 00:20:52.720 --> 00:20:56.500 later acknowledged that. In July of 2024, she 00:20:56.500 --> 00:20:59.339 explicitly said, I got kicked out of show business 00:20:59.339 --> 00:21:02.960 for being mean. That is a direct quote. She felt 00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:05.519 deeply personally rejected by the audience she 00:21:05.519 --> 00:21:07.869 had served for two decades. So that brings us 00:21:07.869 --> 00:21:10.390 to the afterlife, this period from 2024 to where 00:21:10.390 --> 00:21:13.390 we are now in early 2026. She tried to process 00:21:13.390 --> 00:21:15.589 it all through stand -up again. Yes, her latest 00:21:15.589 --> 00:21:18.069 Netflix special, For Your Approval, which came 00:21:18.069 --> 00:21:21.470 out in September 2024. And in it, she addressed 00:21:21.470 --> 00:21:23.529 the scandal head -on. She was trying to control 00:21:23.529 --> 00:21:25.549 the narrative again, trying to find the funny 00:21:25.549 --> 00:21:27.630 in being canceled. She was trying to frame it 00:21:27.630 --> 00:21:29.750 as, I was a boss and bosses have to make tough 00:21:29.750 --> 00:21:31.630 decisions. It didn't quite land with everyone, 00:21:31.730 --> 00:21:34.690 though. It didn't. And then... She made a huge 00:21:34.690 --> 00:21:38.750 move, a literal move. In November 2024, she and 00:21:38.750 --> 00:21:41.390 Portia packed up and left the United States. 00:21:41.589 --> 00:21:44.730 They moved to the Cotswolds in England. And the 00:21:44.730 --> 00:21:46.849 reporting around this is very specific about 00:21:46.849 --> 00:21:48.970 the motivation. It wasn't just, oh, let's retire 00:21:48.970 --> 00:21:51.210 to the countryside. It was a reaction to the 00:21:51.210 --> 00:21:53.529 political climate. The sources say it was directly 00:21:53.529 --> 00:21:55.390 triggered by the reelection of Donald Trump. 00:21:55.690 --> 00:21:57.750 They had apparently purchased the home before 00:21:57.750 --> 00:22:00.529 the election, but the result... solidify their 00:22:00.529 --> 00:22:02.849 decision not to return to the U .S. That is such 00:22:02.849 --> 00:22:05.730 a drastic change to go from being America's sweetheart 00:22:05.730 --> 00:22:08.670 to basically becoming a self -imposed political 00:22:08.670 --> 00:22:11.250 expatriate. It's the ultimate withdrawal, isn't 00:22:11.250 --> 00:22:13.809 it? She sold the properties in Montecito. She 00:22:13.809 --> 00:22:17.009 sold that massive carpentry estate. She completely 00:22:17.009 --> 00:22:19.589 cashed out. She essentially said, I am taking 00:22:19.589 --> 00:22:22.089 my ball and going home to another country. But 00:22:22.089 --> 00:22:25.210 here we are in January 2026, and the story has 00:22:25.210 --> 00:22:28.710 another little twist because reports from last 00:22:28.710 --> 00:22:31.990 August, August 2025, said they were already selling 00:22:31.990 --> 00:22:34.309 that country home in the Cotswolds. And in a 00:22:34.309 --> 00:22:36.970 sort of goofy local appearance she made in Sheltonham 00:22:36.970 --> 00:22:40.490 in July 2025, she admitted she was a little bit 00:22:40.490 --> 00:22:43.289 bored with just her chickens. It makes sense, 00:22:43.349 --> 00:22:45.130 doesn't it? It has to be hard to turn off the 00:22:45.130 --> 00:22:48.970 engine of celebrity. You spend 40 years hustling, 00:22:48.970 --> 00:22:52.049 performing, being the center of attention, and 00:22:52.049 --> 00:22:55.250 then suddenly it's just you, the mud. And the 00:22:55.250 --> 00:22:58.289 poultry. That's a huge transition. A huge transition. 00:22:58.630 --> 00:23:01.710 Now, she ruled out reviving the talk show, saying 00:23:01.710 --> 00:23:05.009 she is done with show business. But that restlessness 00:23:05.009 --> 00:23:07.910 selling the UK house so quickly, it suggests 00:23:07.910 --> 00:23:10.089 she hasn't quite figured out what the quiet life 00:23:10.089 --> 00:23:12.369 actually looks like yet. It's a fascinating place 00:23:12.369 --> 00:23:14.970 to leave the story. For now, at least, we have 00:23:14.970 --> 00:23:17.950 this woman who broke arguably the biggest barrier 00:23:17.950 --> 00:23:21.470 in television history for LGBTQ visibility. She 00:23:21.470 --> 00:23:24.210 made kindness a billion dollar brand. And then 00:23:24.210 --> 00:23:26.250 she was toppled by the revelation that the brand 00:23:26.250 --> 00:23:28.509 was a facade, or at the very least, that she 00:23:28.509 --> 00:23:30.150 and her organization couldn't live up to it. 00:23:30.309 --> 00:23:32.690 And I think that is the tragedy in the lesson 00:23:32.690 --> 00:23:35.480 here. The Queen of Nice was a role she played. 00:23:35.579 --> 00:23:37.640 It was a defense mechanism she learned from her 00:23:37.640 --> 00:23:40.220 father to survive a traumatic childhood in a 00:23:40.220 --> 00:23:43.240 brutal industry. But you cannot perform nice 00:23:43.240 --> 00:23:46.079 24 hours a day for 19 years without something 00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:48.380 breaking. The pressure must have been immense. 00:23:48.500 --> 00:23:51.779 In a way, we, the audience, demanded she be a 00:23:51.779 --> 00:23:54.339 saint. And when she turned out to be a flawed, 00:23:54.539 --> 00:23:58.240 possibly difficult boss, we tore the statue down. 00:23:58.539 --> 00:24:00.380 It really brings up a provocative thought to 00:24:00.380 --> 00:24:02.579 end on them. We talked about her father's inability 00:24:02.579 --> 00:24:05.259 to handle anything unpleasant. Right. Ellen built 00:24:05.259 --> 00:24:08.619 a billion dollar empire on happiness. But a workplace, 00:24:08.759 --> 00:24:12.000 by its very definition, involves conflict, stress 00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:15.240 and unpleasantness. Was the toxic workplace the 00:24:15.240 --> 00:24:17.440 inevitable result of a leader who psychologically 00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:20.880 simply refused to engage with the messy realities 00:24:20.880 --> 00:24:22.900 of management? That is the question, isn't it? 00:24:22.900 --> 00:24:25.130 Did she just tune it out? Like your father taught 00:24:25.130 --> 00:24:27.910 her to? And maybe, just maybe, now that she is 00:24:27.910 --> 00:24:29.809 geographically removed from Hollywood and the 00:24:29.809 --> 00:24:31.809 U .S., she has finally found a place where she 00:24:31.809 --> 00:24:33.430 doesn't have to be kind for the cameras. She 00:24:33.430 --> 00:24:36.430 can just be Ellen. Whatever that means now. Exactly. 00:24:36.450 --> 00:24:38.490 And we should acknowledge, before we go, the 00:24:38.490 --> 00:24:41.029 wildlife conservation work she is still doing, 00:24:41.210 --> 00:24:44.190 the Ellen DeGeneres Wildlife Fund, the work with 00:24:44.190 --> 00:24:47.690 gorillas in Rwanda, that passion seems genuine 00:24:47.690 --> 00:24:50.200 and ongoing. It's a part of her legacy that exists 00:24:50.200 --> 00:24:52.859 entirely outside of the ratings and the tabloids. 00:24:52.940 --> 00:24:55.740 It is. And perhaps that is where she will find 00:24:55.740 --> 00:24:58.539 her peace in this next chapter. Not in the applause, 00:24:58.660 --> 00:25:01.000 but in the silence of nature. Thank you all for 00:25:01.000 --> 00:25:03.059 listening to this deep dive into the complex, 00:25:03.180 --> 00:25:05.500 contradictory life of Ellen DeGeneres. We'll 00:25:05.500 --> 00:25:06.200 catch you on the next one.