WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.960 Welcome back to the Deep Dive. Today we're, well, 00:00:03.100 --> 00:00:05.259 we're undertaking a mission, you could say, a 00:00:05.259 --> 00:00:08.439 deep dive into a single, truly monumental figure. 00:00:08.720 --> 00:00:12.279 Nagavara Ramarau Narayana Murthy, or N .R. Narayana 00:00:12.279 --> 00:00:14.000 Murthy. Exactly. He's an Indian billionaire, 00:00:14.220 --> 00:00:17.730 an entrepreneur, and... The visionary founder 00:00:17.730 --> 00:00:21.170 of Infosys. He is. And our sources really paint 00:00:21.170 --> 00:00:23.570 this incredible picture of a man who didn't just 00:00:23.570 --> 00:00:26.870 succeed in business, but who fundamentally shaped 00:00:26.870 --> 00:00:29.329 the entire global services economy that we live 00:00:29.329 --> 00:00:31.449 in today. That's really the core of our mission 00:00:31.449 --> 00:00:33.969 here. We need to unpack his entire story, his 00:00:33.969 --> 00:00:36.850 whole arc. We have to understand the mechanisms 00:00:36.850 --> 00:00:39.090 of his global influence, the philosophy that 00:00:39.090 --> 00:00:43.250 drove him, and then critically, why this towering 00:00:43.250 --> 00:00:45.750 figure of industry has so recently become such 00:00:45.750 --> 00:00:48.119 a lightning rod. A light and rod for a furious 00:00:48.119 --> 00:00:51.119 debate. A huge debate about work ethic, productivity 00:00:51.119 --> 00:00:53.439 and what life should even look like in the modern 00:00:53.439 --> 00:00:56.320 age. Well, his legacy is just it's hard to overstate. 00:00:56.399 --> 00:00:58.359 I mean, Time magazine and CNBC, they don't just 00:00:58.359 --> 00:01:00.820 hand out titles like father of the Indian I .T. 00:01:00.859 --> 00:01:03.039 sector. No, that's a serious claim. It's a huge 00:01:03.039 --> 00:01:05.939 claim and it reflects his singular contribution. 00:01:07.130 --> 00:01:10.209 He pioneered IT services outsourcing from India, 00:01:10.409 --> 00:01:12.909 an industry that's now worth, what, hundreds 00:01:12.909 --> 00:01:15.469 of billions of dollars a year? And his stature. 00:01:15.489 --> 00:01:18.870 It's not just in India. It's truly global. Fortune 00:01:18.870 --> 00:01:21.310 magazine put him on their list of the 12 greatest 00:01:21.310 --> 00:01:23.609 entrepreneurs of our time. Right. Alongside people 00:01:23.609 --> 00:01:26.489 like Steve Jobs and Bill Gates. Exactly. And 00:01:26.489 --> 00:01:29.340 when you add in this estimated net worth. About 00:01:29.340 --> 00:01:32.019 five billion U .S. dollars as of early 2025. 00:01:32.599 --> 00:01:34.420 And then this other high profile connection. 00:01:34.620 --> 00:01:36.519 The geopolitical connection. Yeah. Being the 00:01:36.519 --> 00:01:38.400 father in law of the former U .K. prime minister, 00:01:38.519 --> 00:01:41.079 Rishi Sunak, you start to realize this is someone 00:01:41.079 --> 00:01:44.180 whose words and decisions carry an immense amount 00:01:44.180 --> 00:01:46.780 of weight far beyond any single boardroom. And 00:01:46.780 --> 00:01:49.480 that's what makes the contrast so, so palpable. 00:01:50.109 --> 00:01:52.430 He spent decades building this reputation as 00:01:52.430 --> 00:01:54.969 a kind of global statesman, a proponent of what 00:01:54.969 --> 00:01:56.909 he called compassionate capitalism. Building 00:01:56.909 --> 00:01:59.329 this ethical, transparent company that made so 00:01:59.329 --> 00:02:01.609 many of its employees wealthy. Thousands of them. 00:02:01.909 --> 00:02:04.310 Yet the public conversation right now, it's almost 00:02:04.310 --> 00:02:07.250 entirely focused on his recent, very prescriptive 00:02:07.250 --> 00:02:09.610 advice about work hours. It's like we're watching 00:02:09.610 --> 00:02:12.270 a transition in real time from business icon 00:02:12.270 --> 00:02:15.750 to productivity provocateur. That's a great way 00:02:15.750 --> 00:02:18.229 to put it. So to understand why his recent statements 00:02:18.229 --> 00:02:21.210 are so jarring. We really have to go back. We 00:02:21.210 --> 00:02:23.009 have to start at the beginning, at the moment. 00:02:23.069 --> 00:02:26.909 A self -described confused leftist turned into 00:02:26.909 --> 00:02:30.219 a compassionate capitalist. OK, let's unpack 00:02:30.219 --> 00:02:33.099 this entire arc. So Murthy was born in 1946. 00:02:33.479 --> 00:02:36.199 That's a year before India's independence, which 00:02:36.199 --> 00:02:38.099 is which is a really important context. Right. 00:02:38.180 --> 00:02:40.180 He was born in Siddhligada, which was then the 00:02:40.180 --> 00:02:43.120 kingdom of Mysore. Now it's in Karnataka. And 00:02:43.120 --> 00:02:46.939 his family was, you know, a Canada speaking middle 00:02:46.939 --> 00:02:49.960 class Desha Samadva Brahmin family. That middle 00:02:49.960 --> 00:02:51.639 class foundation feels really important, doesn't 00:02:51.639 --> 00:02:54.340 it? It seems like it shaped his entire view on. 00:02:54.939 --> 00:02:57.180 on upward mobility and the power of education. 00:02:57.460 --> 00:02:59.620 Absolutely. Education was the engine. You can 00:02:59.620 --> 00:03:02.080 see it in his academic path. It's just this relentless 00:03:02.080 --> 00:03:05.639 pursuit of technical excellence. He gets his 00:03:05.639 --> 00:03:07.539 bachelor's degree in electrical engineering from 00:03:07.539 --> 00:03:09.520 the National Institute of Engineering in Mysuru 00:03:09.520 --> 00:03:12.580 back in 67. But he didn't stop there. No, not 00:03:12.580 --> 00:03:15.000 at all. He went on to the Indian Institute of 00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:18.319 Technology Kanpur, or IIT Kanpur, and got his 00:03:18.319 --> 00:03:20.900 master's degree in 69. And for anyone listening 00:03:20.900 --> 00:03:22.460 who might not be familiar with the Indian system, 00:03:22.680 --> 00:03:25.120 getting into an IIT is... especially back then, 00:03:25.240 --> 00:03:29.159 that puts you at the absolute apex of technical 00:03:29.159 --> 00:03:31.979 talent in the country. It does. It gave him this 00:03:31.979 --> 00:03:34.599 incredibly rigorous intellectual foundation. 00:03:34.860 --> 00:03:38.360 He was ready to tackle the kind of huge technological 00:03:38.360 --> 00:03:41.340 challenges of that era. In his early career, 00:03:41.520 --> 00:03:43.620 it wasn't a corporate path, was it? It was more 00:03:43.620 --> 00:03:47.370 academic. infrastructural, almost like nation 00:03:47.370 --> 00:03:49.729 building. It really was. He started at the Indian 00:03:49.729 --> 00:03:52.550 Institute of Management in Ahmedabad. I am Ahmedabad 00:03:52.550 --> 00:03:55.169 first as a research associate. And then he rose 00:03:55.169 --> 00:03:57.509 to become the chief systems programmer. And the 00:03:57.509 --> 00:03:59.909 sources point to some genuinely pioneering work 00:03:59.909 --> 00:04:02.250 there. He was involved in developing India's 00:04:02.250 --> 00:04:04.979 very first time sharing computer system. We really 00:04:04.979 --> 00:04:07.360 have to pause on that for a second, because for 00:04:07.360 --> 00:04:09.139 us today, that might not sound like much, but 00:04:09.139 --> 00:04:11.680 you have to put yourself back in the late 60s, 00:04:11.680 --> 00:04:14.340 early 70s in India. Right. Computing was incredibly 00:04:14.340 --> 00:04:17.360 expensive. It was centralized. It was slow. It 00:04:17.360 --> 00:04:20.120 was hampered by import restrictions, a lack of 00:04:20.120 --> 00:04:23.240 infrastructure. It was a scarce resource. So 00:04:23.240 --> 00:04:25.800 why was time sharing such a big deal? It let 00:04:25.800 --> 00:04:29.319 multiple people use the same very expensive mainframe 00:04:29.319 --> 00:04:32.620 computer at the same time. maximizing its use. 00:04:32.920 --> 00:04:35.399 Exactly. Instead of people lining up to wait 00:04:35.399 --> 00:04:37.319 for their turn on the machine, several people 00:04:37.319 --> 00:04:40.060 could work at once. It was a huge step in just 00:04:40.060 --> 00:04:43.100 democratizing access to computing power in a 00:04:43.100 --> 00:04:45.899 place like India where resources were so limited. 00:04:46.139 --> 00:04:47.899 So he's solving a national infrastructure problem 00:04:47.899 --> 00:04:50.439 with software. He is. And beyond that, he also 00:04:50.439 --> 00:04:52.839 designed and implemented a basic interpreter 00:04:52.839 --> 00:04:55.139 for the Electronics Corporation of India Limited. 00:04:55.480 --> 00:04:58.079 So he wasn't just using the tools. He was building 00:04:58.079 --> 00:05:00.839 the tools themselves. The language layer that 00:05:00.839 --> 00:05:03.259 makes programming accessible to more people. 00:05:03.399 --> 00:05:05.740 That's the key point. This established him not 00:05:05.740 --> 00:05:07.939 just as a manager, but as a real engineer capable 00:05:07.939 --> 00:05:10.779 of deep, original software architecture. But 00:05:10.779 --> 00:05:13.639 the road from there to Infosys. Yeah. It wasn't 00:05:13.639 --> 00:05:16.120 a straight line. We tend to focus on the massive 00:05:16.120 --> 00:05:19.259 successes, but the sources remind us of his first 00:05:19.259 --> 00:05:22.019 major failure. Softronics. The company he started 00:05:22.019 --> 00:05:24.079 that folded after, what, about a year and a half? 00:05:24.300 --> 00:05:27.879 18 months, yeah. And that failure is so often 00:05:27.879 --> 00:05:30.339 a crucial part of the story. It must have showed 00:05:30.339 --> 00:05:32.500 him just how tough entrepreneurship was in that 00:05:32.500 --> 00:05:35.620 regulatory environment. After it failed, he joined 00:05:35.620 --> 00:05:38.180 a company called Patany Computer Systems in Pune. 00:05:38.360 --> 00:05:40.620 And that experience in a more established IT 00:05:40.620 --> 00:05:43.740 firm was probably essential. It was. It gave 00:05:43.740 --> 00:05:45.980 him the professional networks, the understanding 00:05:45.980 --> 00:05:49.680 of how to scale operations, all things he would 00:05:49.680 --> 00:05:52.699 later leverage for Infosys. But the real pivot, 00:05:52.800 --> 00:05:55.629 the... The philosophical foundation for everything 00:05:55.629 --> 00:05:57.829 that came next, that didn't happen in a boardroom 00:05:57.829 --> 00:06:00.050 or a computer lab. No, it happened on a train 00:06:00.050 --> 00:06:02.269 near a contested border. And this is where it 00:06:02.269 --> 00:06:03.889 gets really interesting, because we're talking 00:06:03.889 --> 00:06:05.750 about a complete ideological transformation. 00:06:06.170 --> 00:06:09.589 The pivotal moment. It was 1974. Murthy's traveling 00:06:09.589 --> 00:06:12.170 in Eastern Europe, and he is arrested and expelled 00:06:12.170 --> 00:06:14.529 near the Yugoslav -Bulgarian border. This is 00:06:14.529 --> 00:06:16.209 the height of the communist era. He was just 00:06:16.209 --> 00:06:18.509 detained. Detained, apparently without any cause. 00:06:18.769 --> 00:06:22.600 He experienced firsthand the... the abrupt suffocating 00:06:22.600 --> 00:06:25.439 power of a totalitarian state. So you have this 00:06:25.439 --> 00:06:28.459 highly accomplished, logical, technical professional 00:06:28.459 --> 00:06:31.560 who is suddenly stripped of his liberty by a 00:06:31.560 --> 00:06:33.980 completely arbitrary system. That must have been 00:06:33.980 --> 00:06:36.759 a profound shock. It shook his entire worldview. 00:06:37.339 --> 00:06:39.620 He has said over and over again that this single 00:06:39.620 --> 00:06:42.199 event was the catalyst. It's what transformed 00:06:42.199 --> 00:06:45.459 him from what he calls a confused leftist communist 00:06:45.459 --> 00:06:49.120 into a compassionate capitalist. OK, let's unpack 00:06:49.120 --> 00:06:51.319 that term, compassionate capitalist. What does 00:06:51.319 --> 00:06:53.300 that actually mean in practice, especially in 00:06:53.300 --> 00:06:56.230 the India of that time? Well, if you connect 00:06:56.230 --> 00:06:58.110 the dots, he saw state ownership and central 00:06:58.110 --> 00:07:00.709 planning leading to rigidity and arbitrary power. 00:07:00.889 --> 00:07:03.269 So he turned to market mechanisms to capitalism. 00:07:03.709 --> 00:07:06.490 But crucially, he anchored that new belief with 00:07:06.490 --> 00:07:09.610 the idea of compassion. Which for him meant prioritizing 00:07:09.610 --> 00:07:12.350 wealth creation for his employees. Infosys became 00:07:12.350 --> 00:07:15.110 famous for offering stock options so widely it 00:07:15.110 --> 00:07:17.470 turned hundreds, maybe even thousands of its 00:07:17.470 --> 00:07:20.649 middle class employees into millionaires. This 00:07:20.649 --> 00:07:23.470 was a radical idea in the 1980s and 90s in India, 00:07:23.550 --> 00:07:25.959 where the owners and top management usually kept 00:07:25.959 --> 00:07:28.459 all the wealth. So his model was basically an 00:07:28.459 --> 00:07:30.579 antidote to what he experienced on that train. 00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:33.360 It was. It was. Let's harness the freedom and 00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:35.560 efficiency of the market to create wealth, but 00:07:35.560 --> 00:07:38.240 then let's distribute that wealth widely to lift 00:07:38.240 --> 00:07:42.100 up society and reduce disparity. That 1974 incident 00:07:42.100 --> 00:07:44.519 gave him the moral, the philosophical mandate 00:07:44.519 --> 00:07:48.500 to create a new kind of Indian company, one defined 00:07:48.500 --> 00:07:51.220 by transparency, governance, and employee equity. 00:07:51.709 --> 00:07:53.730 Which is the perfect bridge to the Infosys story 00:07:53.730 --> 00:07:56.290 itself. He wasn't just starting a company. He 00:07:56.290 --> 00:07:58.610 was launching an organization based on this very 00:07:58.610 --> 00:08:02.649 specific, deeply personal ideology. So the stage 00:08:02.649 --> 00:08:05.810 is set. The philosophy is defined. And in 1981, 00:08:06.149 --> 00:08:09.300 Infosys is founded in Pune. But it wasn't a solo 00:08:09.300 --> 00:08:11.360 act. No, he launched it with six other software 00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:13.439 professionals, a whole cohort of technical minds 00:08:13.439 --> 00:08:16.100 who were, you know, committed to this new vision. 00:08:16.300 --> 00:08:18.100 And the origin story is really the stuff of legend. 00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:20.339 The sources all confirmed that the initial capital 00:08:20.339 --> 00:08:23.019 investment was just RS -10000. And that modest 00:08:23.019 --> 00:08:25.959 sum came from his wife, Sudha Murthy. We really 00:08:25.959 --> 00:08:28.519 need to put that number in context. RS -10000 00:08:28.519 --> 00:08:31.180 in 1981. I mean, it wasn't nothing, but to launch 00:08:31.180 --> 00:08:33.179 a technology company, one with global ambitions. 00:08:33.789 --> 00:08:36.470 It's an unbelievably small amount. It just highlights 00:08:36.470 --> 00:08:38.549 the immense faith, the personal risk and the 00:08:38.549 --> 00:08:42.210 the sheer audacity of starting a venture like 00:08:42.210 --> 00:08:45.250 that in an India that was still so heavily regulated 00:08:45.250 --> 00:08:48.129 and often. quite hostile to private enterprise. 00:08:48.470 --> 00:08:50.950 That initial investment really represents the 00:08:50.950 --> 00:08:53.450 entire foundation of a multinational giant built 00:08:53.450 --> 00:08:56.190 on personal sacrifice. Absolutely. And Murthy 00:08:56.190 --> 00:09:00.070 served as the CEO for 21 years, from 1981 all 00:09:00.070 --> 00:09:03.110 the way to 2002. 21 years. That covers the most 00:09:03.110 --> 00:09:05.870 critical phases imaginable. The early struggle, 00:09:06.029 --> 00:09:08.669 the Indian liberalization reforms in the early 00:09:08.669 --> 00:09:12.529 90s. The dot -com boom, the Y2K boom, all of 00:09:12.529 --> 00:09:15.039 it. And that long, steady period of leadership 00:09:15.039 --> 00:09:18.019 is what allowed him to really define the company's 00:09:18.019 --> 00:09:20.120 culture and its processes from the ground up. 00:09:20.179 --> 00:09:22.639 After his CEO tenure, he transitioned to chairman 00:09:22.639 --> 00:09:25.000 of the board until 2011. Yeah. But the key contribution, 00:09:25.220 --> 00:09:27.580 the thing that really earns him that father of 00:09:27.580 --> 00:09:30.379 the Indian IT sector title is a specific innovation. 00:09:30.720 --> 00:09:33.460 A technical and operational one. It's the articulation, 00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:35.360 the design and the implementation of the global 00:09:35.360 --> 00:09:37.679 delivery model for IT services outsourcing from 00:09:37.679 --> 00:09:40.850 India. The GDM. This is the true mechanism of 00:09:40.850 --> 00:09:42.809 his success, isn't it? Yeah. We need to break 00:09:42.809 --> 00:09:45.129 this down for you, the listener, to really get 00:09:45.129 --> 00:09:47.889 its revolutionary impact. It is. Before Mercy 00:09:47.889 --> 00:09:51.110 and the GDM, outsourcing often just meant moving 00:09:51.110 --> 00:09:54.610 low -end data processing tasks offshore. The 00:09:54.610 --> 00:09:56.990 GDM changed everything because it allowed for 00:09:56.990 --> 00:09:59.690 highly complex, mission -critical projects to 00:09:59.690 --> 00:10:02.769 be executed reliably from India. So how did it 00:10:02.769 --> 00:10:05.129 actually work? It broke a big project down into 00:10:05.129 --> 00:10:07.330 distinct parts, right? Three main components. 00:10:07.929 --> 00:10:10.690 First, you had the on -site team, a small group 00:10:10.690 --> 00:10:12.830 of very experienced people working right there 00:10:12.830 --> 00:10:15.049 at the client's office, maybe in New York or 00:10:15.049 --> 00:10:17.990 London. Their job was to define the requirements, 00:10:18.269 --> 00:10:21.250 manage expectations, and be the face of the project. 00:10:21.470 --> 00:10:24.110 The client -facing part. Exactly. Then part two, 00:10:24.250 --> 00:10:26.250 the offshore component. This was the bulk of 00:10:26.250 --> 00:10:28.389 the work, all the technical development, the 00:10:28.389 --> 00:10:30.730 coding, the testing that was all done in India, 00:10:30.870 --> 00:10:33.590 leveraging the lower cost base and the huge pool 00:10:33.590 --> 00:10:36.169 of highly educated engineers. And sometimes there 00:10:36.169 --> 00:10:38.809 was a third part. Yeah, sometimes a nearshore 00:10:38.809 --> 00:10:40.950 or remote center was used to handle things like 00:10:40.950 --> 00:10:43.970 integration or specific time zone issues. But 00:10:43.970 --> 00:10:46.570 the genius of it was standardizing this whole 00:10:46.570 --> 00:10:49.409 process. Making it repeatable. Repeatable, scalable, 00:10:49.570 --> 00:10:52.649 and guaranteed by really strict quality control. 00:10:53.580 --> 00:10:55.879 This standardization took away the perceived 00:10:55.879 --> 00:10:58.879 risk for Western clients who were very nervous 00:10:58.879 --> 00:11:01.000 about sending complex work thousands of miles 00:11:01.000 --> 00:11:04.559 away. It turned IT outsourcing from a risky experiment 00:11:04.559 --> 00:11:07.480 into a predictable industrialized service. And 00:11:07.480 --> 00:11:09.480 the ultimate advantage, the thing that truly 00:11:09.480 --> 00:11:11.980 revolutionized the sector, was using the time 00:11:11.980 --> 00:11:15.019 difference. The 24 -hour workday. Work done in 00:11:15.019 --> 00:11:17.019 the U .S. during their day could be handed off 00:11:17.019 --> 00:11:19.419 electronically to the team in India. They'd work 00:11:19.419 --> 00:11:21.600 on it overnight. And by the time the U .S. team 00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:23.100 came back to work the next morning, morning, 00:11:23.220 --> 00:11:26.179 the next phase was done. It just dramatically 00:11:26.179 --> 00:11:28.860 accelerated project timelines and created massive 00:11:28.860 --> 00:11:31.340 cost savings. It proved that Indian companies 00:11:31.340 --> 00:11:33.960 could handle enterprise -level work. And that 00:11:33.960 --> 00:11:36.360 is why the accolades are deserved. He didn't 00:11:36.360 --> 00:11:39.000 just participate in an existing market. He defined 00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:41.720 the entire operating model for an industry that 00:11:41.720 --> 00:11:44.080 fundamentally reshaped how global corporations 00:11:44.080 --> 00:11:47.340 handle technology. So after steering Infosys 00:11:47.340 --> 00:11:50.440 to become this global titan, he steps down in 00:11:50.440 --> 00:11:54.740 August 2011. He takes the title Chairman Emeritus. 00:11:55.220 --> 00:11:59.190 But the story. It wasn't quite over. No, the 00:11:59.190 --> 00:12:01.909 ship needed studying, it seems. In June 2013, 00:12:02.210 --> 00:12:04.769 due to what was widely reported as some governance 00:12:04.769 --> 00:12:07.049 issues and maybe faltering growth after he left, 00:12:07.210 --> 00:12:09.370 Murthy was brought back. As executive chairman. 00:12:09.509 --> 00:12:12.669 Yes, for a specified five -year period. His return 00:12:12.669 --> 00:12:15.190 really highlighted just how indispensable his 00:12:15.190 --> 00:12:17.509 stewardship and his moral authority were within 00:12:17.509 --> 00:12:20.190 that organization. He came back to... basically 00:12:20.190 --> 00:12:22.330 reinstill the principles he championed from the 00:12:22.330 --> 00:12:24.529 start. But his second stint was actually pretty 00:12:24.529 --> 00:12:26.789 short. Very short. He stood down as executive 00:12:26.789 --> 00:12:29.850 chairman in June 2014, served as a non -executive 00:12:29.850 --> 00:12:31.789 chairman for a few more months, and then in October 00:12:31.789 --> 00:12:34.629 2014, he finally resumed the title of chairman 00:12:34.629 --> 00:12:37.750 emeritus for good. But even in retirement, that 00:12:37.750 --> 00:12:40.509 commitment to transparency and governance, the 00:12:40.509 --> 00:12:43.990 core of his compassionate capitalism, it remained 00:12:43.990 --> 00:12:47.440 absolute. It did. The sources note that as late 00:12:47.440 --> 00:12:50.340 as 2017, he publicly raised significant concerns 00:12:50.340 --> 00:12:53.000 over what he saw as alleged corporate governance 00:12:53.000 --> 00:12:56.039 lapses at Infosys. And that public critique, 00:12:56.120 --> 00:12:59.259 which the company denied, is such a crucial detail. 00:12:59.480 --> 00:13:02.720 It shows that even as a retired founder, he held 00:13:02.720 --> 00:13:04.740 the company to the highest ethical standard, 00:13:04.899 --> 00:13:07.700 the very standard he set back in the 80s, as 00:13:07.700 --> 00:13:10.340 a response to his ideological shift away from 00:13:10.340 --> 00:13:12.840 opaque state control. He was basically telling 00:13:12.840 --> 00:13:15.039 the world and the company that the principles 00:13:15.039 --> 00:13:18.929 were So the creation of Infosys really opened 00:13:18.929 --> 00:13:21.389 all these doors for Murthy to become this incredibly 00:13:21.389 --> 00:13:23.769 powerful voice in global commerce and thought 00:13:23.769 --> 00:13:26.169 leadership. We're moving beyond his role as an 00:13:26.169 --> 00:13:28.809 entrepreneur now and into his role as a global 00:13:28.809 --> 00:13:31.269 advisor. And if you just look at his affiliations, 00:13:31.269 --> 00:13:34.210 you can see his status as a trusted voice. He 00:13:34.210 --> 00:13:36.250 served as an independent director on the corporate 00:13:36.250 --> 00:13:39.110 board of HSBC. One of the world's largest banks. 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:42.039 Exactly. And think about the perspective he brought 00:13:42.039 --> 00:13:44.919 to a major international bank. It wasn't just 00:13:44.919 --> 00:13:48.139 banking expertise. It was an expert view on rapid 00:13:48.139 --> 00:13:51.039 digital transformation, on technological scale, 00:13:51.240 --> 00:13:54.179 on risk management across dozens of different 00:13:54.179 --> 00:13:57.320 global regulatory environments. Skills he honed, 00:13:57.320 --> 00:14:00.700 managing Infosys' huge operations. And his board 00:14:00.700 --> 00:14:04.360 roles went way beyond finance. He advised DBS 00:14:04.360 --> 00:14:08.200 Bank, Unilever. A massive consumer goods multinational. 00:14:08.360 --> 00:14:12.360 ICI. His presence on the Unilever board, for 00:14:12.360 --> 00:14:14.580 example, it signals that even traditional businesses 00:14:14.580 --> 00:14:17.360 needed to integrate advanced IT and data management. 00:14:17.620 --> 00:14:20.059 He was bringing the digital revolution to every 00:14:20.059 --> 00:14:22.539 single sector he touched. His reach also went 00:14:22.539 --> 00:14:25.559 deep into global policy. In 2005, he co -chaired 00:14:25.559 --> 00:14:27.799 the World Economic Forum in Davos. And that's 00:14:27.799 --> 00:14:29.980 not just an attendance badge. Co -chairing Davos 00:14:29.980 --> 00:14:32.299 means you are instrumental in setting the global 00:14:32.299 --> 00:14:34.799 dialogue, in driving the conversation around 00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:37.019 major economic and social issues at the very 00:14:37.019 --> 00:14:40.279 highest level. And beyond pure business, his 00:14:40.279 --> 00:14:43.080 commitment to education is just so evident in 00:14:43.080 --> 00:14:45.860 all his advisory and trustee roles. He served 00:14:45.860 --> 00:14:48.139 on the advisory boards for institutions that 00:14:48.139 --> 00:14:50.259 are shaping the next generation of global leaders. 00:14:50.539 --> 00:14:55.179 Cornell University. and he provided guidance 00:14:55.179 --> 00:14:58.200 to huge philanthropic organizations like the 00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:01.019 Ford Foundation and the UN Foundation. This is 00:15:01.019 --> 00:15:03.519 a clear application of his compassionate capitalism 00:15:03.519 --> 00:15:07.039 philosophy, taking the insights and wealth generated 00:15:07.039 --> 00:15:09.360 by the market and channeling them back toward 00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:12.360 education, poverty reduction, and global stability. 00:15:12.820 --> 00:15:14.779 A really high honor in the academic world is 00:15:14.779 --> 00:15:17.200 his role as a trustee of the Rhodes Trust. The 00:15:17.200 --> 00:15:19.240 Rhodes Trust, which oversees the Rhodes Scholars 00:15:19.240 --> 00:15:21.779 at Oxford, and he was involved with the Institute 00:15:21.779 --> 00:15:24.419 for Advanced Study in Princeton. These appointments 00:15:24.419 --> 00:15:27.539 signal a profound respect for his wisdom in identifying, 00:15:27.860 --> 00:15:30.200 funding and mentoring intellectual talent on 00:15:30.200 --> 00:15:32.860 a global scale. And he also maintained his influence 00:15:32.860 --> 00:15:35.799 in India, didn't he? Oh, absolutely. He chaired 00:15:35.799 --> 00:15:37.600 the governing board of the Public Health Foundation 00:15:37.600 --> 00:15:40.759 of India and served on the strategic board advising 00:15:40.759 --> 00:15:43.639 a major national law firm. His focus remained 00:15:43.639 --> 00:15:47.799 balanced health, law, governance, global commerce. 00:15:48.039 --> 00:15:50.779 This immense sphere of influence is really reflected 00:15:50.779 --> 00:15:53.379 in the honors he's received. We should detail 00:15:53.379 --> 00:15:55.080 some of the major awards because they really 00:15:55.080 --> 00:15:57.610 illustrate his global stature. Within India, 00:15:57.710 --> 00:16:00.490 he got two of the nation's highest civilian awards, 00:16:00.769 --> 00:16:04.450 the Padma Shri in 2000 and then the Padma Vyuturjan 00:16:04.450 --> 00:16:07.610 in 2008. And the Padma Vyuturjan is second only 00:16:07.610 --> 00:16:10.090 to the Bharat Ratna. It's a recognition of him 00:16:10.090 --> 00:16:12.679 as a nation builder. It is. But internationally, 00:16:13.159 --> 00:16:15.480 the recognition is almost more striking because 00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:18.240 of its political significance. In 2007, the UK 00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:20.379 government named him an honorary commander of 00:16:20.379 --> 00:16:23.240 the Order of the British Empire, a CBE. And then 00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:25.320 a year later, the French government recognized 00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:27.559 him as an officer of the Legion of Honor. Just 00:16:27.559 --> 00:16:30.159 think about the symbolism there. The UK and France, 00:16:30.440 --> 00:16:33.379 two major G7 economies, are giving their highest 00:16:33.379 --> 00:16:35.879 civilian honors to an entrepreneur whose success 00:16:35.879 --> 00:16:38.019 was built on creating a model that efficiently 00:16:38.019 --> 00:16:40.830 moved IT jobs from the West to the East. It's 00:16:40.830 --> 00:16:42.250 like they were acknowledging that the Indian 00:16:42.250 --> 00:16:45.769 IT sector wasn't a threat, but a necessary and 00:16:45.769 --> 00:16:48.149 professional partner in the global digital transformation. 00:16:48.470 --> 00:16:50.809 Exactly. And they were acknowledging Murthy as 00:16:50.809 --> 00:16:53.710 the architect of that partnership. These national 00:16:53.710 --> 00:16:55.990 honors were then complemented by all sorts of 00:16:55.990 --> 00:16:58.690 industry and academic awards. The Ernst & Young 00:16:58.690 --> 00:17:01.269 World Entrepreneur of the Year, the Woodrow Wilson 00:17:01.269 --> 00:17:04.170 Award for Corporate Citizenship. The Hoover Medal 00:17:04.170 --> 00:17:07.529 in 2012. It's like all these awards together 00:17:07.529 --> 00:17:10.779 synthesizes legacy. He's seen as a responsible 00:17:10.779 --> 00:17:14.099 leader who used entrepreneurial success to drive 00:17:14.099 --> 00:17:16.720 social and ethical progress around the world. 00:17:16.859 --> 00:17:19.279 So now, shifting from the boardroom and the diplomatic 00:17:19.279 --> 00:17:21.700 stage, we can look at the core of his support 00:17:21.700 --> 00:17:24.599 system, his immediate family. And they're a highly 00:17:24.599 --> 00:17:26.460 accomplished group, often in the media spotlight 00:17:26.460 --> 00:17:28.380 themselves. Right. And we have to start with 00:17:28.380 --> 00:17:31.460 his spouse, Sudha Murthy. He married her in 1978. 00:17:31.900 --> 00:17:34.880 And she is just such an essential figure in this 00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:37.119 whole story. She is not just the spouse of a 00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:38.819 billionaire. She's a distinguished educator, 00:17:39.079 --> 00:17:41.160 an author, a philanthropist in her own right. 00:17:41.500 --> 00:17:43.940 And, of course, she provided that crucial initial 00:17:43.940 --> 00:17:47.259 capital for Infosys. That R is 10 ,000. But her 00:17:47.259 --> 00:17:50.119 involvement didn't stop there. Not at all. She 00:17:50.119 --> 00:17:52.240 served as the chairperson of the Infosys Foundation, 00:17:52.299 --> 00:17:55.140 and she steered its corporate social responsibility 00:17:55.140 --> 00:17:58.319 and philanthropic work. In many ways, she was 00:17:58.319 --> 00:18:00.720 the practical face of the compassionate part 00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:03.099 of their capitalist venture. She made sure the 00:18:03.099 --> 00:18:06.039 company's success translated directly into societal, 00:18:06.380 --> 00:18:09.200 good education, health care, rural development. 00:18:09.559 --> 00:18:12.480 They have two children, Akshata Murthy and Rohan 00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:15.869 Murthy, and their son, Rohan, he naturally went 00:18:15.869 --> 00:18:18.589 into the tech world. He did, though he deliberately 00:18:18.589 --> 00:18:21.430 seems to have sought an independent path. He 00:18:21.430 --> 00:18:24.210 had a brief, very high -profile immersion in 00:18:24.210 --> 00:18:25.690 the family business, though. Right, when his 00:18:25.690 --> 00:18:27.890 father came back as executive chairman in 2013. 00:18:28.309 --> 00:18:30.410 Rohan served as his executive assistant for that 00:18:30.410 --> 00:18:33.049 year. He was learning the corporate ropes directly 00:18:33.049 --> 00:18:35.789 from the master, so to speak. But then he strategically 00:18:35.789 --> 00:18:38.750 left Infosys in 2014 to start his own company, 00:18:39.130 --> 00:18:42.369 Soroco. And that move is really telling. It speaks 00:18:42.369 --> 00:18:44.730 to the unique challenge of operating in the shadow 00:18:44.730 --> 00:18:47.509 of such a colossal family legacy. And it shows 00:18:47.509 --> 00:18:49.990 that drive to build a personal success story 00:18:49.990 --> 00:18:52.670 that's separate from Infosys. And then, of course, 00:18:52.730 --> 00:18:54.750 we come to the most globally prominent family 00:18:54.750 --> 00:18:57.670 connection, the one that bridges technology and 00:18:57.670 --> 00:19:02.549 finance with G7 politics. His daughter, Akshata 00:19:02.549 --> 00:19:05.349 Murthy. Akshata Murthy married Rishi Sunak back 00:19:05.349 --> 00:19:08.569 in 2009. For a long time, it was a personal connection, 00:19:08.809 --> 00:19:11.250 but as Sunak's political career just accelerated 00:19:11.250 --> 00:19:14.529 incredibly rapidly, it placed the Murthy family 00:19:14.529 --> 00:19:16.890 right in the international political spotlight. 00:19:17.069 --> 00:19:19.789 The political significance is just... immense 00:19:19.789 --> 00:19:22.230 and complex, Rishi Sunak served as the prime 00:19:22.230 --> 00:19:25.009 minister of the United Kingdom from 2022 to 2024. 00:19:25.390 --> 00:19:27.890 Which made N .R. Narayana Murthy the father -in 00:19:27.890 --> 00:19:30.670 -law of a sitting UK prime minister. The optics 00:19:30.670 --> 00:19:32.750 of that are just fascinating. Murthy builds his 00:19:32.750 --> 00:19:34.930 wealth by perfecting a mechanism, the global 00:19:34.930 --> 00:19:37.309 delivery model, that moved highly skilled, cost 00:19:37.309 --> 00:19:39.569 -effective service jobs from places like the 00:19:39.569 --> 00:19:42.519 UK to India. And now his family sits at the absolute 00:19:42.519 --> 00:19:45.279 apex of British political power. It creates this 00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:47.480 very intricate, sometimes politically sensitive 00:19:47.480 --> 00:19:50.319 relationship between global capital, talent migration 00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:53.039 and national governance. It just underscores 00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:55.119 this idea that the business and tech decisions 00:19:55.119 --> 00:19:57.720 made decades ago by Indian entrepreneurs are 00:19:57.720 --> 00:20:00.210 no longer just in the economic sphere. No, they've 00:20:00.210 --> 00:20:03.390 evolved into these profound geopolitical and 00:20:03.390 --> 00:20:06.230 familial realities. It really shows the extent 00:20:06.230 --> 00:20:09.470 to which the Indian diaspora and Indian led global 00:20:09.470 --> 00:20:12.609 businesses influence world politics today. OK, 00:20:12.670 --> 00:20:15.980 so now we have to pivot. We pivot from his monumental 00:20:15.980 --> 00:20:18.900 achievements, his high profile family, to the 00:20:18.900 --> 00:20:21.680 issue that has really recast his entire public 00:20:21.680 --> 00:20:24.519 persona. The productivity controversy. The intense, 00:20:24.660 --> 00:20:27.440 highly charged debate around his views on work 00:20:27.440 --> 00:20:29.740 ethic. And this all started boiling over in late 00:20:29.740 --> 00:20:32.799 2023. Right. The initial comment was this call 00:20:32.799 --> 00:20:35.160 for the younger generation in India to work 70 00:20:35.160 --> 00:20:38.319 hours a week. 70 hours. 70. And he framed this 00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:41.319 as a necessity for national prosperity. He argued 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:43.369 that if India wants rapid economic... growth 00:20:43.369 --> 00:20:46.069 it requires significant personal sacrifice and 00:20:46.069 --> 00:20:48.390 extreme dedication from its youth and the reaction 00:20:48.390 --> 00:20:52.160 was immediate yeah and fierce, especially on 00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:55.059 social media and within the huge Indian IT and 00:20:55.059 --> 00:20:57.160 startup sectors. It just tapped into this widespread 00:20:57.160 --> 00:20:59.519 resentment over work -life balance that already 00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:01.880 plagues India's corporate culture. It felt like 00:21:01.880 --> 00:21:04.140 a direct challenge to the modern definition of 00:21:04.140 --> 00:21:06.740 professional success. And what resonated so negatively, 00:21:06.940 --> 00:21:09.480 I think, was the perception that this figure 00:21:09.480 --> 00:21:12.119 of immense wealth, who is part of a generation 00:21:12.119 --> 00:21:14.460 that benefited so much from India's economic 00:21:14.460 --> 00:21:17.880 liberalization, was now asking the current generation 00:21:17.880 --> 00:21:21.579 to just... Double down on sacrifice. A generation 00:21:21.579 --> 00:21:23.720 that often faces higher living costs and fewer 00:21:23.720 --> 00:21:26.700 social safety nets. Exactly. So about a year 00:21:26.700 --> 00:21:30.539 later, in November 2024, he responds to this 00:21:30.539 --> 00:21:32.619 massive backlash. He offers a clarification. 00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:35.259 a critical one that kind of got lost in all the 00:21:35.259 --> 00:21:37.880 noise. He stated that his remark was meant as 00:21:37.880 --> 00:21:40.819 a matter for personal introspection, not a mandatory 00:21:40.819 --> 00:21:43.019 policy for the country. He tried to shift the 00:21:43.019 --> 00:21:45.700 framework from a national mandate to a personal 00:21:45.700 --> 00:21:48.660 philosophy. He did. He clarified that his own 00:21:48.660 --> 00:21:50.980 choice was to work more than 70 hours a week 00:21:50.980 --> 00:21:53.640 for over 40 years. And then he added, nobody 00:21:53.640 --> 00:21:56.210 can say you should do it. He was offering his 00:21:56.210 --> 00:21:58.410 own path as an example of what it took for him 00:21:58.410 --> 00:22:00.869 to succeed, not as a prescription for everyone 00:22:00.869 --> 00:22:03.029 else. But the controversy didn't go away. In 00:22:03.029 --> 00:22:05.470 fact, it escalated. The sources say that in November 00:22:05.470 --> 00:22:08.569 2025, he moved from just suggesting high work 00:22:08.569 --> 00:22:11.849 hours to actively advocating for a specific and 00:22:11.849 --> 00:22:14.529 notorious model. The 996 working hour system. 00:22:14.690 --> 00:22:17.109 Which raises a really important question. Why 00:22:17.109 --> 00:22:20.380 that model? What is it? It dictates working from 00:22:20.380 --> 00:22:25.099 9 .10 a .m. to 9 .00 p .m. six days a week. It's 00:22:25.099 --> 00:22:28.480 a 72 -hour week, essentially. And his alleged 00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:31.660 rationale was that this system contributed massively 00:22:31.660 --> 00:22:34.480 to China's rapid economic growth. And so it could 00:22:34.480 --> 00:22:36.740 be a blueprint for India. This is where his argument 00:22:36.740 --> 00:22:38.720 becomes highly problematic. And it's why the 00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:42.400 backlash was so severe. The 996 system is globally 00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:45.339 known as an unsustainable, burnout -inducing, 00:22:45.339 --> 00:22:48.319 and often exploitative labor practice. The backlash 00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:51.519 was completely justified. It focused on the documented 00:22:51.519 --> 00:22:54.019 detrimental effects on physical and mental health. 00:22:54.119 --> 00:22:57.640 Systems like 996 lead to stress, sleep deprivation, 00:22:57.799 --> 00:23:00.420 family problems, and severe long -term health 00:23:00.420 --> 00:23:02.960 issues. What the Japanese call karoshi. Death 00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:05.920 from overwork. And here is the absolutely crucial 00:23:05.920 --> 00:23:08.400 counterpoint that just undermines his entire 00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:10.859 rationale for using China as a model. Wait, let 00:23:10.859 --> 00:23:13.400 me guess. The 996 system was actually outlawed 00:23:13.400 --> 00:23:16.279 by the Chinese Supreme Court in 2021. Wow. So 00:23:16.279 --> 00:23:18.539 he's advocating for a system that the very country 00:23:18.539 --> 00:23:20.619 he's citing as the success story has already 00:23:20.619 --> 00:23:22.599 abandoned and declared illegal and inhumane. 00:23:22.859 --> 00:23:25.539 Precisely. The court cited fundamental labor 00:23:25.539 --> 00:23:28.559 law protections. So Murthy was advocating for 00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:31.019 a system that was already deemed unsustainable 00:23:31.019 --> 00:23:33.380 from both a human and a legal standpoint in the 00:23:33.380 --> 00:23:36.420 country he held up as the example. It suggests 00:23:36.420 --> 00:23:40.160 a real failure to engage with the contemporary 00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:43.000 global context of labor ethics. And the critique 00:23:43.000 --> 00:23:45.420 also focused on compensation, didn't it? This 00:23:45.420 --> 00:23:48.339 idea that extreme overwork often doesn't come 00:23:48.339 --> 00:23:50.529 with overtime pay. Right. The sacrifice falls 00:23:50.529 --> 00:23:52.710 entirely on the worker while the corporation 00:23:52.710 --> 00:23:55.269 reaps all the benefits. And this just challenges 00:23:55.269 --> 00:23:57.589 the core of his own legacy. The compassionate 00:23:57.589 --> 00:24:00.190 capitalist who built his empire on distributing 00:24:00.190 --> 00:24:03.250 wealth and championing strong governance is now 00:24:03.250 --> 00:24:05.710 promoting a model that's widely seen as promoting 00:24:05.710 --> 00:24:08.150 worker exploitation. It just forces you to ask 00:24:08.150 --> 00:24:10.170 whether his definition of compassion has shifted 00:24:10.170 --> 00:24:12.650 under the weight of this intense national ambition. 00:24:12.930 --> 00:24:14.750 The debate he sparked, it really goes beyond 00:24:14.750 --> 00:24:17.009 just business advice. It's a philosophical conflict 00:24:17.009 --> 00:24:19.019 over what should drive national growth. growth? 00:24:19.039 --> 00:24:21.640 Should be human capital driven by sustainable 00:24:21.640 --> 00:24:24.640 ethical practices? Or should it be achieved through 00:24:24.640 --> 00:24:27.839 sheer brute force productivity mandates, even 00:24:27.839 --> 00:24:29.960 if that leads to burnout and horrible health 00:24:29.960 --> 00:24:32.839 outcomes for your workforce? His statements seem 00:24:32.839 --> 00:24:35.059 to reveal this deep seated belief, which is common 00:24:35.059 --> 00:24:37.859 among first generation titans, that their personal 00:24:37.859 --> 00:24:40.940 path of intense sacrifice is the only path to 00:24:40.940 --> 00:24:43.400 national success. Maybe failing to account for 00:24:43.400 --> 00:24:46.210 how much the world and labor laws. have changed 00:24:46.210 --> 00:24:48.910 since the 1980s. So what does this all mean? 00:24:49.009 --> 00:24:51.289 We've traced this monumental life and career 00:24:51.289 --> 00:24:54.109 of N .R. Narayana Murthy, and his legacy is really 00:24:54.109 --> 00:24:56.509 one of these transformative dualities. He is 00:24:56.509 --> 00:24:59.230 the foundational pioneer, the father of the Indian 00:24:59.230 --> 00:25:01.930 IT sector, who perfected the global delivery 00:25:01.930 --> 00:25:04.650 model. who established a gold standard for corporate 00:25:04.650 --> 00:25:06.450 governance and employee wealth distribution. 00:25:06.750 --> 00:25:10.069 And created India's first truly global tech giant. 00:25:10.269 --> 00:25:12.950 But simultaneously, he's positioned himself as 00:25:12.950 --> 00:25:15.069 this contemporary figure whose advice, first 00:25:15.069 --> 00:25:17.670 the 70 -hour workweek and then the outlawed 996 00:25:17.670 --> 00:25:19.910 system, has fundamentally fractured his public 00:25:19.910 --> 00:25:23.349 identity. But in doing so, he has ignited a critical, 00:25:23.509 --> 00:25:26.529 I think a necessary, global conversation about 00:25:26.529 --> 00:25:29.450 work -life balance, the ethical duties of corporations, 00:25:29.930 --> 00:25:33.710 and the true non -monetary cost of prioritizing 00:25:33.710 --> 00:25:35.970 hypergrowth. The man who built his empire on 00:25:35.970 --> 00:25:38.630 a concept forged by that encounter with the Soviet 00:25:38.630 --> 00:25:41.049 system's rigidity, the whole idea of compassionate 00:25:41.049 --> 00:25:44.289 capitalism, is now testing the absolute limits 00:25:44.289 --> 00:25:46.930 of that compassion. He's advocating for working 00:25:46.930 --> 00:25:49.109 hours that many people just see as fundamentally 00:25:49.109 --> 00:25:52.089 incompatible with human welfare. It's incredible. 00:25:52.190 --> 00:25:55.029 We saw how he transformed a deeply negative personal 00:25:55.029 --> 00:25:58.529 experience, his arrest in 1974, into the philosophical 00:25:58.529 --> 00:26:01.400 foundation for his entire company. He converted 00:26:01.400 --> 00:26:03.619 a confrontation with communism into a mandate 00:26:03.619 --> 00:26:06.140 for market -driven societal improvement. So now 00:26:06.140 --> 00:26:08.079 that his focus is shifted to these productivity 00:26:08.079 --> 00:26:10.460 mandates for the entire nation, how should emerging 00:26:10.460 --> 00:26:12.799 economies balance that urgent need for rapid 00:26:12.799 --> 00:26:15.079 transformative growth, that 70 -hour -a -week 00:26:15.079 --> 00:26:18.099 mindset with the well -documented mental, physical, 00:26:18.220 --> 00:26:20.700 and societal costs of forcing systems like 996 00:26:20.700 --> 00:26:23.339 onto a modern workforce? I mean, what stands 00:26:23.339 --> 00:26:25.349 out to you? The central tension here is just 00:26:25.349 --> 00:26:28.609 all about sustainability. Can the legacy of a 00:26:28.609 --> 00:26:31.609 man who built an entire industry on repeatable, 00:26:31.650 --> 00:26:34.730 scalable and high quality processes maintain 00:26:34.730 --> 00:26:37.930 a coherent philosophy while he advocates for 00:26:37.930 --> 00:26:40.210 a labor model that has been proven in multiple 00:26:40.210 --> 00:26:43.289 global contexts to be neither repeatable nor 00:26:43.289 --> 00:26:46.029 scalable nor sustainable for human beings? And 00:26:46.029 --> 00:26:48.410 what does success truly mean if the cost is measured 00:26:48.410 --> 00:26:50.890 in widespread burnout rather than a widely distributed 00:26:50.890 --> 00:26:53.309 wealth? Powerful questions. Powerful questions. 00:26:53.450 --> 00:26:55.849 for all of us to consider as we watch these global 00:26:55.849 --> 00:26:58.890 economies shift and evolve. That's all the time 00:26:58.890 --> 00:27:00.789 we have for this deep dive. Thank you for tuning 00:27:00.789 --> 00:27:01.009 in.