WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.359 Okay, so let's unpack this. We are dedicating 00:00:02.359 --> 00:00:07.219 this deep dive to a figure whose career just, 00:00:07.299 --> 00:00:09.539 I mean, it completely shatters all conventional 00:00:09.539 --> 00:00:12.599 wisdom about success. Especially in tech, right? 00:00:12.679 --> 00:00:15.300 Especially in the cutthroat world of global technology. 00:00:15.660 --> 00:00:19.199 We're talking about Jack Ma, or Ma Yin, a man 00:00:19.199 --> 00:00:22.140 who consistently failed the systems designed 00:00:22.140 --> 00:00:25.019 to measure, you know, intelligence and success. 00:00:25.760 --> 00:00:28.480 only to build an empire that literally shaped 00:00:28.480 --> 00:00:30.980 the global economy what's so fascinating here 00:00:30.980 --> 00:00:33.700 i think is that his Biography isn't really a 00:00:33.700 --> 00:00:36.000 corporate history. It's more of a testament to 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:39.759 this radical, almost impossible tenacity. Yes. 00:00:39.899 --> 00:00:42.060 We're tracking the journey of a personality who 00:00:42.060 --> 00:00:44.460 thrived because of his failures, not despite 00:00:44.460 --> 00:00:47.420 them. He leveraged a complete lack of technical 00:00:47.420 --> 00:00:50.460 qualifications into this unique, people -centric 00:00:50.460 --> 00:00:52.539 leadership style. Absolutely. And when you look 00:00:52.539 --> 00:00:54.719 at the sheer volume of material we have, the 00:00:54.719 --> 00:00:56.679 narrative that just keeps popping up is rejection, 00:00:56.979 --> 00:00:59.200 constant rejection. And we have to start with 00:00:59.200 --> 00:01:00.859 the most famous one, the one that, you know, 00:01:00.899 --> 00:01:03.090 it defines. his underdog status before he ever 00:01:03.090 --> 00:01:04.290 became a tech type. You're talking about the 00:01:04.290 --> 00:01:06.930 KFC story? Of course. Yeah, this is crucial for 00:01:06.930 --> 00:01:10.189 setting the stage. When KFC first opened a location 00:01:10.189 --> 00:01:13.310 in his hometown, Hangzhou, 24 people applied 00:01:13.310 --> 00:01:16.650 for jobs. Wait. 23 of them were accepted. Ma 00:01:16.650 --> 00:01:19.950 Yun was the single, solitary rejection. Just 00:01:19.950 --> 00:01:23.269 imagine that. Being the one person deemed unsuitable 00:01:23.269 --> 00:01:25.950 out of two dozen applicants. It's brutal. And 00:01:25.950 --> 00:01:27.629 the reason that's always cited, which has become 00:01:27.629 --> 00:01:30.730 part of the lore, was just... It was so blunt. 00:01:30.930 --> 00:01:34.170 Too skinny, too short, and in general, protruded 00:01:34.170 --> 00:01:36.549 a bad physical appearance. I mean, this wasn't 00:01:36.549 --> 00:01:39.909 about... It was a rejection of his very presence. 00:01:40.150 --> 00:01:43.010 That kind of constant stinging failure is really 00:01:43.010 --> 00:01:45.329 the furnace where his later success was forged. 00:01:45.650 --> 00:01:48.049 Exactly. Being continually dismissed by traditional 00:01:48.049 --> 00:01:50.810 gamekeepers becomes the core of his later philosophy. 00:01:51.049 --> 00:01:53.650 So for you, the listener, this deep dive is really 00:01:53.650 --> 00:01:55.950 a mission to synthesize these two conflicting 00:01:55.950 --> 00:01:58.969 forces. You have Ma's highly unlikely path, right? 00:01:59.010 --> 00:02:00.810 Built on soft skills and this global vision. 00:02:00.950 --> 00:02:03.510 And then you have the massive, very public clash 00:02:03.510 --> 00:02:06.170 with powerful Chinese financial regulators that 00:02:06.170 --> 00:02:09.449 forced him to leave. his strategic retreat. And 00:02:09.449 --> 00:02:12.250 ultimately, we'll analyze what his reemergence 00:02:12.250 --> 00:02:14.729 in, of all things, agriculture and education, 00:02:15.050 --> 00:02:17.430 tells us about the limits of private power in 00:02:17.430 --> 00:02:20.590 China today. To understand the man who dared 00:02:20.590 --> 00:02:23.430 to challenge the state, you really have to start 00:02:23.430 --> 00:02:25.969 at the beginning. Right, in the crucible of those 00:02:25.969 --> 00:02:28.849 early failures, because they absolutely shaped 00:02:28.849 --> 00:02:32.449 his later tolerance for risk and, well, for rejection. 00:02:32.939 --> 00:02:36.580 Indeed. So let's go back to Hangzhou, 1964, born 00:02:36.580 --> 00:02:39.699 Ma Yan. His early life was defined by this one 00:02:39.699 --> 00:02:42.699 almost obsessive interest. English. English. 00:02:42.759 --> 00:02:44.860 And it wasn't a subject he was just good at in 00:02:44.860 --> 00:02:47.000 school. It was a skill he actively went out and 00:02:47.000 --> 00:02:49.620 pursued in the real world. And the dedication 00:02:49.620 --> 00:02:52.280 was just staggering. We know he started practicing 00:02:52.280 --> 00:02:54.280 with foreign tourists near the Hangzhou International 00:02:54.280 --> 00:02:56.370 Hotel when he was still pretty young. But it 00:02:56.370 --> 00:02:58.650 was the consistency that underscores his commitment. 00:02:58.770 --> 00:03:01.150 It became this dedicated, self -imposed training 00:03:01.150 --> 00:03:04.250 regimen. For nine years. Nine years. Every single 00:03:04.250 --> 00:03:07.270 day, Ma rode his bicycle 27 kilometers, that's 00:03:07.270 --> 00:03:09.669 about 17 miles, just to get to the hotel area. 00:03:09.810 --> 00:03:12.229 And he wasn't getting paid. No, he worked as 00:03:12.229 --> 00:03:15.110 an impromptu, self -appointed tour guide. He 00:03:15.110 --> 00:03:17.169 offered free tours just for the chance to speak 00:03:17.169 --> 00:03:19.949 English and get fluent. That is incredible dedication 00:03:19.949 --> 00:03:22.270 for a young person. It wasn't about textbook 00:03:22.270 --> 00:03:25.930 grammar. You know, it was about immediate, practical, 00:03:26.150 --> 00:03:29.289 conversational application. Exactly. He wanted 00:03:29.289 --> 00:03:31.750 the real cultural exchange. And it was during 00:03:31.750 --> 00:03:34.490 this nine year ritual that he met a foreign pen 00:03:34.490 --> 00:03:37.889 pal who struggled to pronounce his Chinese name. 00:03:37.990 --> 00:03:40.120 And she gave him the name Jag to Jack. Right. 00:03:40.219 --> 00:03:43.199 And this intense self -taught focus on communication, 00:03:43.539 --> 00:03:46.300 on bridging cultural divides, that would become 00:03:46.300 --> 00:03:49.379 his greatest asset in global business, far more 00:03:49.379 --> 00:03:51.639 than any technical skill he lacked. But while 00:03:51.639 --> 00:03:54.240 he's busy mastering this informal global language, 00:03:54.520 --> 00:03:57.879 his formal academic life was, well, a train wreck. 00:03:58.039 --> 00:04:00.900 A total mess. The materials clearly show a personality 00:04:00.900 --> 00:04:04.000 who just did not fit the rigid, standardized 00:04:04.000 --> 00:04:06.379 structure of the Chinese education system. Especially 00:04:06.379 --> 00:04:08.960 when it came to core subjects like math. His 00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:11.560 school records paint this highly paradoxical 00:04:11.560 --> 00:04:14.319 picture. In primary school, he struggled. He 00:04:14.319 --> 00:04:16.399 was even forced to transfer schools because he 00:04:16.399 --> 00:04:19.199 was fighting a lot. It shows this restless spirit 00:04:19.199 --> 00:04:21.620 that just chafed against the rules. But the real 00:04:21.620 --> 00:04:23.980 systemic failure, the big one, came with the 00:04:23.980 --> 00:04:27.339 gaokao. The intensely competitive, highly unforgiving 00:04:27.339 --> 00:04:30.379 Chinese college entrance examination. This exam 00:04:30.379 --> 00:04:33.160 is the ultimate gatekeeper in China. I mean, 00:04:33.180 --> 00:04:35.579 failing it can define your entire life path. 00:04:36.490 --> 00:04:39.170 And he failed it. Not once. Not twice. But three 00:04:39.170 --> 00:04:41.129 times in a row. And the margin of failure was. 00:04:41.310 --> 00:04:44.189 Yeah. It was devastating. His first attempt in 00:04:44.189 --> 00:04:47.509 1982 yielded only one point in mathematics. One. 00:04:47.649 --> 00:04:49.889 A single point. Think about the psychological 00:04:49.889 --> 00:04:51.769 weight of that. It's almost a perfect failure. 00:04:52.089 --> 00:04:53.769 It speaks volumes about his character that he 00:04:53.769 --> 00:04:56.769 came back the next year, 1983, only to manage 00:04:56.769 --> 00:04:59.750 an equally abysmal math score of 19 points. I 00:04:59.750 --> 00:05:02.310 mean, this is relentless public institutionalized 00:05:02.310 --> 00:05:04.339 failure. Most people would have just quit. They'd 00:05:04.339 --> 00:05:06.160 have resigned themselves to a different, less 00:05:06.160 --> 00:05:09.199 ambitious path. But not Ma. He comes back for 00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:13.319 a third try in 1984. He finally scores 89 points 00:05:13.319 --> 00:05:16.279 in math. Which is a huge leap. It shows incredible 00:05:16.279 --> 00:05:19.500 effort. It is. But even that massive improvement 00:05:19.500 --> 00:05:22.279 was still five points below the minimum benchmark 00:05:22.279 --> 00:05:25.600 required for university acceptance. The willpower 00:05:25.600 --> 00:05:28.839 was there, but the system still said no. So if 00:05:28.839 --> 00:05:32.149 he was five points shy, how did he even... get 00:05:32.149 --> 00:05:34.970 into higher education at all. This is the kind 00:05:34.970 --> 00:05:37.069 of lucky break that only happens to people who 00:05:37.069 --> 00:05:39.649 just refuse to quit. It was a bureaucratic loophole 00:05:39.649 --> 00:05:41.550 that opened the door for him. He was only accepted 00:05:41.550 --> 00:05:44.470 into Hangzhou Normal University because the English 00:05:44.470 --> 00:05:46.709 department. His area of strength. Right. His 00:05:46.709 --> 00:05:48.730 area of strength hadn't met its minimum enrollment 00:05:48.730 --> 00:05:51.449 quota. They basically had to lower the bar out 00:05:51.449 --> 00:05:54.269 of necessity to fill seats. So he benefited from 00:05:54.269 --> 00:05:57.050 the system's failure to recruit. That's a powerful 00:05:57.050 --> 00:05:59.509 reversal of fortune. He was promoted into the 00:05:59.509 --> 00:06:01.790 foreign language major, not because he met the 00:06:01.790 --> 00:06:04.250 standard, but because they needed him. And once 00:06:04.250 --> 00:06:06.290 he was in his element, you know, those nine years 00:06:06.290 --> 00:06:08.689 of informal English practice paid off immediately. 00:06:08.990 --> 00:06:11.870 He thrived. He went from being an academic outcast 00:06:11.870 --> 00:06:15.149 to one of the top students in his department. 00:06:15.350 --> 00:06:17.810 He became chairman of the Student Union, then 00:06:17.810 --> 00:06:19.970 the Hangzhou Federation of Students. He knew 00:06:19.970 --> 00:06:21.990 how to lead and communicate. He just couldn't 00:06:21.990 --> 00:06:24.689 solve quadratic equations. And that distinction 00:06:24.689 --> 00:06:27.250 is the central paradox of his entire career. 00:06:27.430 --> 00:06:30.209 The ability to excel at soft skills communication, 00:06:30.730 --> 00:06:34.769 leadership vision, while failing utterly at the 00:06:34.769 --> 00:06:37.569 hard skills like math and coding. So he gets 00:06:37.569 --> 00:06:40.209 his B .A. in English in 1988, takes a pretty 00:06:40.209 --> 00:06:42.290 comfortable job as a lecturer at a university. 00:06:42.569 --> 00:06:45.269 But the rejections weren't over. No, not by a 00:06:45.269 --> 00:06:48.670 long shot. The real world was just as unforgiving 00:06:48.670 --> 00:06:51.509 as the gaokao. The sources say he applied for 00:06:51.509 --> 00:06:54.350 31 different entry -level jobs. And was rejected 00:06:54.350 --> 00:06:57.389 from every single one. That is an almost unimaginable 00:06:57.389 --> 00:07:01.170 emotional toll. 31 doors slammed shut. The KSC 00:07:01.170 --> 00:07:03.569 incident is just the most famous of those 31. 00:07:03.810 --> 00:07:05.970 So the takeaway is that this relentless pattern 00:07:05.970 --> 00:07:08.209 of failure just created the blueprint for his 00:07:08.209 --> 00:07:10.829 risk tolerance. If you already failed 31 times 00:07:10.829 --> 00:07:13.129 and scored a 1 in math, what's one more failure? 00:07:13.269 --> 00:07:15.560 Right. But amidst all this localized failure 00:07:15.560 --> 00:07:17.560 in China, there was this one crucial international 00:07:17.560 --> 00:07:20.680 connection that fundamentally rewired his worldview. 00:07:20.939 --> 00:07:24.180 The Morley family in Australia. This often gets 00:07:24.180 --> 00:07:27.220 glossed over. But Ma himself calls this experience 00:07:27.220 --> 00:07:29.779 crucial. And it really provides the philosophical 00:07:29.779 --> 00:07:32.519 foundation for Alibaba's global scope. Yeah, 00:07:32.600 --> 00:07:34.800 in 1980, while he was practicing English, he 00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:36.920 befriended Ken Morley, who was visiting China. 00:07:37.459 --> 00:07:40.420 Years later, the Morleys hosted Ma in Newcastle, 00:07:40.420 --> 00:07:44.199 Australia. for 29 days. And Ma later reflected, 00:07:44.420 --> 00:07:47.000 without those 29 days, I would never have been 00:07:47.000 --> 00:07:49.160 able to think the way I do today. Think about 00:07:49.160 --> 00:07:51.639 what that trip meant. Ma was coming from this 00:07:51.639 --> 00:07:54.680 highly rigid, often culturally isolated China. 00:07:55.199 --> 00:07:57.540 Suddenly, he's immersed for a month in a Western 00:07:57.540 --> 00:08:00.519 democratic capitalist society. He saw a different 00:08:00.519 --> 00:08:02.600 way of thinking, a different approach to problem 00:08:02.600 --> 00:08:04.949 solving. a different sense of personal freedom. 00:08:05.189 --> 00:08:07.990 That experience gave him a non -Chinese worldview, 00:08:08.310 --> 00:08:10.970 a global lens that was absolutely essential for 00:08:10.970 --> 00:08:13.550 building a truly international e -commerce platform 00:08:13.550 --> 00:08:16.509 years later. He developed the tenacity back home, 00:08:16.629 --> 00:08:18.629 but the Morley connection gave him the global 00:08:18.629 --> 00:08:21.370 vision. That shift is the key inflection point 00:08:21.370 --> 00:08:23.550 before technology ever even enters the picture. 00:08:23.730 --> 00:08:26.310 He returns to China, and in 1994, he starts his 00:08:26.310 --> 00:08:29.199 first small business, a translation agency. But 00:08:29.199 --> 00:08:31.699 the real turning point comes the very next year, 00:08:31.879 --> 00:08:35.080 1995. The trip to the U .S. Yes, on behalf of 00:08:35.080 --> 00:08:37.320 the Hangzhou municipal government. And that trip 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:39.480 introduced him to the nascent world of the Internet. 00:08:39.759 --> 00:08:41.759 And the discovery moment is legendary because 00:08:41.759 --> 00:08:45.200 it so perfectly highlights the information asymmetry 00:08:45.200 --> 00:08:47.220 that existed between China and the rest of the 00:08:47.220 --> 00:08:49.659 world at that time. The anecdote is a perfect 00:08:49.659 --> 00:08:52.720 case study in recognizing a market void. He searched 00:08:52.720 --> 00:08:55.919 for beer online. He found results for Germany, 00:08:56.159 --> 00:08:59.850 the U .S., Japan. But nothing for China. Then 00:08:59.850 --> 00:09:01.950 he searched for just general information about 00:09:01.950 --> 00:09:05.330 China. And found basically nothing. An information 00:09:05.330 --> 00:09:08.450 void. China was globally invisible online, and 00:09:08.450 --> 00:09:11.190 that void provided immediate, urgent market validation. 00:09:12.049 --> 00:09:14.990 Ma and a friend quickly created a very basic 00:09:14.990 --> 00:09:17.809 website. Ma called it ugly about Chinese beer. 00:09:17.970 --> 00:09:20.269 And the speed of the response tells the entire 00:09:20.269 --> 00:09:23.009 story. They launched the site at 9 .40 in the 00:09:23.009 --> 00:09:25.809 morning. And by 12 .30 p .m. That same day, he 00:09:25.809 --> 00:09:27.549 had received emails from prospective investors. 00:09:27.970 --> 00:09:31.830 Within hours. The demand was just there, hiding 00:09:31.830 --> 00:09:34.710 beneath the surface. He recalled waiting three 00:09:34.710 --> 00:09:37.309 and a half hours for half a page to load on a 00:09:37.309 --> 00:09:40.230 slow dial -up connection. But he was so proud, 00:09:40.350 --> 00:09:42.549 he said, I proved the internet existed. That 00:09:42.549 --> 00:09:45.049 realization led to his second company, Hangzhou 00:09:45.049 --> 00:09:48.809 Hope Computer Services, in 1995. It was one of 00:09:48.809 --> 00:09:51.190 China's earliest Internet startups, basically 00:09:51.190 --> 00:09:54.230 an online Yellow Pages called China Pages. And 00:09:54.230 --> 00:09:56.570 this wasn't some slow burn venture. China Pages 00:09:56.570 --> 00:09:59.610 made about five million RMB in profit within 00:09:59.610 --> 00:10:02.429 three years. He had found his area of dominance 00:10:02.429 --> 00:10:06.029 using communication and vision to bridge that 00:10:06.029 --> 00:10:08.350 massive information gap. He then did a brief 00:10:08.350 --> 00:10:10.230 stint working for the Ministry of Foreign Trade, 00:10:10.370 --> 00:10:12.730 but he realized the bureaucracy was just stifling. 00:10:12.769 --> 00:10:15.409 He needed to go bigger, faster, and outside the 00:10:15.409 --> 00:10:17.429 direct control of the state. And that's when 00:10:17.429 --> 00:10:19.409 the real idea of the global platform was born. 00:10:19.509 --> 00:10:21.590 He quits the ministry, goes back to Hangzhou 00:10:21.590 --> 00:10:25.049 in 1999, and co -founds the Alibaba group in 00:10:25.049 --> 00:10:27.690 his apartment with 18 friends. The 18 Luans. 00:10:28.120 --> 00:10:30.700 starting with a very modest seed capital of 500 00:10:30.700 --> 00:10:34.600 ,000 yuan. This was the pivotal pivot, a B2B 00:10:34.600 --> 00:10:37.200 platform focused on small and medium -sized enterprises, 00:10:37.659 --> 00:10:39.700 helping them connect with international buyers. 00:10:39.960 --> 00:10:42.659 And crucially, he quickly secured substantial 00:10:42.659 --> 00:10:45.759 foreign venture capital. A total of $25 million 00:10:45.759 --> 00:10:49.620 from two titans, Goldman Sachs and SoftBank, 00:10:49.679 --> 00:10:52.919 between late 99 and early 2000. Getting that 00:10:52.919 --> 00:10:55.299 kind of foreign capital was an enormous vote 00:10:55.299 --> 00:10:57.379 of confidence in his ability to sell the future 00:10:57.379 --> 00:10:59.919 of Chinese e -commerce to the world. It signaled 00:10:59.919 --> 00:11:02.559 that global investors trusted his vision, even 00:11:02.559 --> 00:11:05.779 if local bankers were still wary. And his initial 00:11:05.779 --> 00:11:08.120 mission was perfect for the moment. Foster the 00:11:08.120 --> 00:11:10.659 growth of Chinese SMEs and build a global platform 00:11:10.659 --> 00:11:13.399 just ahead of China's entrance into the WTO in 00:11:13.399 --> 00:11:16.809 2001. Alibaba became profitable just three years 00:11:16.809 --> 00:11:19.649 later, rapidly expanding the ecosystem to include 00:11:19.649 --> 00:11:22.889 Taobao, Alipay, Tmall and so many others. We 00:11:22.889 --> 00:11:24.370 have to talk about that expansion because the 00:11:24.370 --> 00:11:26.649 speed was breathtaking. And one of the most important 00:11:26.649 --> 00:11:29.250 strategic moments was his handling of the confrontation 00:11:29.250 --> 00:11:32.070 with the American giant eBay. Yes, this was a 00:11:32.070 --> 00:11:34.889 battle for the soul of Chinese e -commerce. eBay 00:11:34.889 --> 00:11:38.750 offered to buy Taobao, Alibaba's consumer to 00:11:38.750 --> 00:11:40.710 consumer platform. They wanted to integrate it 00:11:40.710 --> 00:11:43.289 and just dominate the market. But Ma rejected 00:11:43.289 --> 00:11:45.940 the offer. He knew that giving up control would 00:11:45.940 --> 00:11:48.200 mean surrendering the future. Instead of selling 00:11:48.200 --> 00:11:51.860 out, he secured a massive war chest, a $1 billion 00:11:51.860 --> 00:11:54.559 investment from Yahoo co -founder Jerry Yang. 00:11:54.799 --> 00:11:57.399 Yang believed in an independent future for Taobao, 00:11:57.399 --> 00:12:00.159 just like Ma did. That decision secured Alibaba's 00:12:00.159 --> 00:12:02.419 autonomy and allowed them to eventually defeat 00:12:02.419 --> 00:12:04.860 eBay in the Chinese market. That strategic victory 00:12:04.860 --> 00:12:07.659 proved he wasn't just a visionary. He was a master 00:12:07.659 --> 00:12:10.720 strategist willing to take massive risks. The 00:12:10.720 --> 00:12:13.740 empire he built reached an almost incomprehensible 00:12:13.740 --> 00:12:17.139 scale. By November 2012, Alibaba's online transaction 00:12:17.139 --> 00:12:19.539 volume exceeded one trillion yuan. And then the 00:12:19.539 --> 00:12:23.519 2014 NYSE IPO raised over $25 billion, a global 00:12:23.519 --> 00:12:25.940 record at the time. That IPO cemented him as 00:12:25.940 --> 00:12:27.860 a global financial force, and it really brought 00:12:27.860 --> 00:12:30.379 his unique leadership style into focus. We also 00:12:30.379 --> 00:12:32.440 see his commitment to a kind of social strategy 00:12:32.440 --> 00:12:36.009 emerge here. Absolutely. Starting in 2010, Ma 00:12:36.009 --> 00:12:39.190 announced Alibaba would earmark 0 .3 % of its 00:12:39.190 --> 00:12:41.190 annual revenue for environmental protection, 00:12:41.549 --> 00:12:45.269 focusing on water and air quality. He was articulating 00:12:45.269 --> 00:12:47.769 a commitment that went beyond just profit margins. 00:12:48.129 --> 00:12:50.090 Let's get back to that core paradox, because 00:12:50.090 --> 00:12:53.070 this is where the deep dive truly begins. It 00:12:53.070 --> 00:12:55.789 raises the most important question. How did a 00:12:55.789 --> 00:12:59.200 man who struggled so profoundly with math a man 00:12:59.200 --> 00:13:02.179 trained in English literature, successfully run 00:13:02.179 --> 00:13:06.059 and scale a world leading high technology conglomerate. 00:13:06.139 --> 00:13:08.539 Ma's profile just stands in such sharp contrast 00:13:08.539 --> 00:13:11.139 to most tech moguls in China and really globally. 00:13:11.340 --> 00:13:13.700 They almost all have deep backgrounds in computer 00:13:13.700 --> 00:13:15.940 science or engineering. He had a complete dearth 00:13:15.940 --> 00:13:18.179 of technical expertise. He wasn't equipped in 00:13:18.179 --> 00:13:20.360 the traditional sense to run a tech giant. And 00:13:20.360 --> 00:13:22.580 he didn't hide it. In a 2010 public statement, 00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:24.840 he revealed he had never written a single line 00:13:24.840 --> 00:13:26.899 of computer code. And he only got a personal 00:13:26.899 --> 00:13:30.039 computer for business use. at age 33, long after 00:13:30.039 --> 00:13:32.690 he'd already founded China Pages. So his role 00:13:32.690 --> 00:13:36.149 could never be technical. His genius was entirely 00:13:36.149 --> 00:13:39.769 in organizational capacity and soft skills. He 00:13:39.769 --> 00:13:42.149 understood how to hire the right technical people 00:13:42.149 --> 00:13:45.250 and crucially how to motivate them with a compelling 00:13:45.250 --> 00:13:47.330 vision. He was the ultimate promoter, the chief 00:13:47.330 --> 00:13:50.370 salesman, the manager, the organizer. It's classic 00:13:50.370 --> 00:13:53.370 liberal arts leadership. Applying an understanding 00:13:53.370 --> 00:13:56.070 of human behavior and storytelling to a technical 00:13:56.070 --> 00:13:59.990 challenge. He had a famous philosophy. I hire 00:13:59.990 --> 00:14:03.350 people smarter than me, but I lead them. He specifically 00:14:03.350 --> 00:14:05.769 sought out technical specialists who were far 00:14:05.769 --> 00:14:08.649 more capable than he was. His job was to manage 00:14:08.649 --> 00:14:11.490 the politics, manage the capital, and keep the 00:14:11.490 --> 00:14:13.919 team focused on the customer. not on the technological 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:16.360 minutia. It's the vision casting that matters 00:14:16.360 --> 00:14:19.159 at that scale, not the coding ability. He focused 00:14:19.159 --> 00:14:21.960 on the why helping small businesses thrive, which 00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:24.480 resonated globally and allowed him to attract 00:14:24.480 --> 00:14:27.100 top talent who would handle the how. That skill 00:14:27.100 --> 00:14:29.779 allowed him to operate on a global stage, leading 00:14:29.779 --> 00:14:31.600 to meetings like the one he had with then -President 00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:34.590 -elect Donald Trump in 2017. Right, where he 00:14:34.590 --> 00:14:37.029 discussed creating a million jobs in the U .S. 00:14:37.070 --> 00:14:40.250 It underscored his status as China's most powerful 00:14:40.250 --> 00:14:43.250 and charismatic global business ambassador. But 00:14:43.250 --> 00:14:46.529 this entire arc, this narrative of impossible 00:14:46.529 --> 00:14:50.730 charismatic success, it crashed violently into 00:14:50.730 --> 00:14:53.509 the reality of state power in late 2020. The 00:14:53.509 --> 00:14:56.769 state was fundamentally uncomfortable with the 00:14:56.769 --> 00:14:58.909 breadth and depth of the influence he'd accumulated. 00:14:59.309 --> 00:15:01.889 And the catalyst for that crash was a single 00:15:01.889 --> 00:15:06.539 critical speech. October 2020 at the People's 00:15:06.539 --> 00:15:08.820 Bank of China Financial Markets Forum in Shanghai. 00:15:09.389 --> 00:15:12.250 Ma, ever the provocative personality, decided 00:15:12.250 --> 00:15:14.649 to critique the very financial structures that 00:15:14.649 --> 00:15:16.870 had allowed his company, Ant Group, to reach 00:15:16.870 --> 00:15:19.750 this unprecedented valuation. He launched a very 00:15:19.750 --> 00:15:21.990 public, very controversial broadside against 00:15:21.990 --> 00:15:24.429 China's established financial institutions. He 00:15:24.429 --> 00:15:26.809 criticized state banks for having what he called 00:15:26.809 --> 00:15:29.230 a pawn shop mentality. Meaning they prioritize 00:15:29.230 --> 00:15:31.769 collateral and minimizing risk over supporting 00:15:31.769 --> 00:15:33.789 innovation or helping small businesses. And he 00:15:33.789 --> 00:15:36.529 didn't stop there. He took aim at global banking 00:15:36.529 --> 00:15:39.070 standards, dismissing the International Basel 00:15:39.070 --> 00:15:41.860 Accords as a club for the elderly. Which was 00:15:41.860 --> 00:15:44.840 a profound public challenge to the very foundation 00:15:44.840 --> 00:15:47.559 of global financial stability, as regulators 00:15:47.559 --> 00:15:49.799 understand it. He was essentially arguing that 00:15:49.799 --> 00:15:52.139 traditional finance was too slow for the digital 00:15:52.139 --> 00:15:54.840 age and that Ant Group was the superior, more 00:15:54.840 --> 00:15:57.259 efficient model. This was seen not just as a 00:15:57.259 --> 00:16:00.200 critique, but as a direct challenge to the authority 00:16:00.200 --> 00:16:02.639 of China's financial leadership. Coming just 00:16:02.639 --> 00:16:06.139 days before Ant Group's highly anticipated $37 00:16:06.139 --> 00:16:10.080 billion IPO. The response was immediate, calculated 00:16:10.080 --> 00:16:13.720 and absolute. On November 3rd, 2020, just days 00:16:13.720 --> 00:16:16.320 before the scheduled debut, the Shanghai Stock 00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:20.120 Exchange halted the IPO. A clear, unmissable 00:16:20.120 --> 00:16:22.629 signal. of the state's ultimate authority. And 00:16:22.629 --> 00:16:24.190 we have to look at the regulator's perspective 00:16:24.190 --> 00:16:26.610 here. Ant Group was seeking a tech company valuation, 00:16:27.049 --> 00:16:29.789 which is always very high. But about 90 percent 00:16:29.789 --> 00:16:32.129 of its revenue actually came from financial services 00:16:32.129 --> 00:16:34.789 like microlending. Exactly. This is where the 00:16:34.789 --> 00:16:36.909 shadow banking risk comes in. Ant was acting 00:16:36.909 --> 00:16:40.049 like a gigantic bank, but without the same strict 00:16:40.049 --> 00:16:42.690 capital requirements that state owned banks faced. 00:16:42.950 --> 00:16:44.950 The People's Bank of China had been trying to 00:16:44.950 --> 00:16:47.309 regulate Ant as a financial holding company since 00:16:47.309 --> 00:16:49.740 2018. Which would have required them to hold 00:16:49.740 --> 00:16:52.200 more capital, massively depressing their profitability 00:16:52.200 --> 00:16:55.720 and their valuation. Regulators feared a financial 00:16:55.720 --> 00:16:58.659 bubble. The action was designed to impose stability. 00:16:59.059 --> 00:17:01.480 And the scrutiny didn't stop with Ant Group. 00:17:01.700 --> 00:17:04.200 This intervention quickly broadened into a much 00:17:04.200 --> 00:17:07.000 wider government crackdown. It targeted the bad 00:17:07.000 --> 00:17:11.190 giants, Baidu, Alibaba and Tencent. Ma's outspokenness 00:17:11.190 --> 00:17:13.470 provided the convenient justification for accelerating 00:17:13.470 --> 00:17:16.930 what was probably an inevitable systemic correction. 00:17:17.130 --> 00:17:18.809 And the personal fallout for Ma was dramatic. 00:17:19.190 --> 00:17:21.450 He effectively vanished from public life from 00:17:21.450 --> 00:17:25.630 October 2020 to January 2021. This generated 00:17:25.630 --> 00:17:28.170 immense international speculation about his safety, 00:17:28.390 --> 00:17:30.390 his political standing. And the very future of 00:17:30.390 --> 00:17:32.430 private entrepreneurship in China. His first 00:17:32.430 --> 00:17:35.069 reappearance was precisely calculated. In January 00:17:35.069 --> 00:17:38.170 2021, he spoke via video link to rural teachers 00:17:38.170 --> 00:17:41.099 at a charity event. Signaling he was alive, well, 00:17:41.299 --> 00:17:43.680 and focusing his energy on philanthropy and education 00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:46.680 -safe areas encouraged by the state. But this 00:17:46.680 --> 00:17:49.480 was not a quick blip. It was a strategic, mandated 00:17:49.480 --> 00:17:52.960 retreat. By 2022, Ma had moved to Tokyo, Japan, 00:17:53.299 --> 00:17:55.240 largely retreating from the public spotlight. 00:17:55.599 --> 00:17:58.980 And in May 2023, he accepted a highly surprising 00:17:58.980 --> 00:18:01.759 academic position as an invited professor at 00:18:01.759 --> 00:18:04.859 Tokyo College. And his academic focus was perhaps 00:18:04.859 --> 00:18:07.640 the most jarring shift of all. Sustainable agriculture 00:18:07.640 --> 00:18:11.049 and food production. It's a massive, highly symbolic 00:18:11.049 --> 00:18:13.990 change from the glittering high risk world of 00:18:13.990 --> 00:18:16.769 fintech into the quiet, grounding work of food 00:18:16.769 --> 00:18:19.769 systems research. It speaks to a conscious decision 00:18:19.769 --> 00:18:22.769 to move away from high tension sectors. His eventual 00:18:22.769 --> 00:18:25.230 return to China was also carefully orchestrated. 00:18:25.329 --> 00:18:28.710 In March 2023, he was seen touring a school in 00:18:28.710 --> 00:18:31.440 Hangzhou. Reports suggested he was personally 00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:34.460 persuaded to return by Premier Li Cheng. Indicating 00:18:34.460 --> 00:18:36.900 that the state was facilitating and thus controlling 00:18:36.900 --> 00:18:40.319 his reentry. But that return was absolutely conditioned 00:18:40.319 --> 00:18:42.859 on a fundamental shift in his power. This is 00:18:42.859 --> 00:18:45.059 the critical institutional change. In January 00:18:45.059 --> 00:18:48.339 2023, and group announced major changes in shareholder 00:18:48.339 --> 00:18:50.559 voting rights. The most significant change was 00:18:50.559 --> 00:18:52.400 the dramatic reduction of Ma's voting rights, 00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:54.920 which shrank from nearly 50 percent down to just 00:18:54.920 --> 00:18:56.980 6 percent. He was effectively neutered as the 00:18:56.980 --> 00:18:59.319 ultimate decision maker. This change ensured 00:18:59.319 --> 00:19:01.319 no single shareholder could retain a controlling 00:19:01.319 --> 00:19:04.200 stake. The Chinese government reacted very positively, 00:19:04.440 --> 00:19:07.019 noting improvements in transparency. The message 00:19:07.019 --> 00:19:10.480 was clear. Entrepreneurship is fine, but personal 00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:12.740 power that challenges state authority is not. 00:19:13.140 --> 00:19:16.160 Ma also engineered a massive structural change 00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:18.920 at Alibaba itself, turning it into a holding 00:19:18.920 --> 00:19:21.519 company and separating its subsidiaries into 00:19:21.519 --> 00:19:24.799 six independent firms. A proactive move to satisfy 00:19:24.799 --> 00:19:27.519 the state's demand for decentralization and reduce 00:19:27.519 --> 00:19:30.579 the systemic risk of one gigantic entity. And 00:19:30.579 --> 00:19:32.940 we've seen the slow, cautious process of his 00:19:32.940 --> 00:19:36.039 conditional reemergence continue. In early 2024, 00:19:36.420 --> 00:19:39.579 he actually replaced SoftBank as Alibaba's largest 00:19:39.579 --> 00:19:42.299 single shareholder. reasserting financial commitment 00:19:42.299 --> 00:19:44.200 while maintaining his now reduced influence. 00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:47.339 And then in February 2025, he attended a high 00:19:47.339 --> 00:19:49.380 -level symposium hosted by President Xi Jinping 00:19:49.380 --> 00:19:51.660 himself. On the surface, that sounds like full 00:19:51.660 --> 00:19:53.940 rehabilitation. It sounds like it, but the state 00:19:53.940 --> 00:19:56.200 media coverage is where the detail lies. While 00:19:56.200 --> 00:19:58.920 his image appeared on TV, state -run media outlets 00:19:58.920 --> 00:20:01.980 like Xinhua conspicuously omitted his name entirely 00:20:01.980 --> 00:20:04.579 from the list of attendees. The definition of 00:20:04.579 --> 00:20:07.559 conditional acceptance. He's allowed to be present. 00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:10.859 to signal compliance. But his personal celebrity 00:20:10.859 --> 00:20:14.539 status remains severely curtailed. He is an accepted, 00:20:14.700 --> 00:20:17.380 compliant figure, but no longer the independent 00:20:17.380 --> 00:20:20.220 global voice he once was. That's a perfect pivot 00:20:20.220 --> 00:20:22.140 point because now we have to look at the man's 00:20:22.140 --> 00:20:25.200 philosophy, which is just as paradoxical as his 00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:27.960 career. Ma has long positioned himself as a thinker 00:20:27.960 --> 00:20:30.619 rooted in Chinese tradition, identifying as an 00:20:30.619 --> 00:20:33.539 adherent of both Buddhism and Taoism. But he's 00:20:33.539 --> 00:20:35.539 also not shy about discussing other cultures. 00:20:36.089 --> 00:20:39.430 In 2014, he attributed American society's foundational 00:20:39.430 --> 00:20:42.549 strength to its Christian cultural heritage and 00:20:42.549 --> 00:20:44.490 stressed the need for China to implement its 00:20:44.490 --> 00:20:47.329 own positive value system post -cultural revolution. 00:20:47.710 --> 00:20:49.430 And then there was the surprising revelation 00:20:49.430 --> 00:20:52.369 in 2018 when the People's Daily identified him 00:20:52.369 --> 00:20:54.789 as a member of the Chinese Communist Party. For 00:20:54.789 --> 00:20:57.109 many international observers, that was a shock. 00:20:57.289 --> 00:20:59.690 It really clarifies his position within the system, 00:20:59.809 --> 00:21:02.210 even if he doesn't align with every policy. And 00:21:02.210 --> 00:21:03.930 let's talk about his most controversial domestic 00:21:03.930 --> 00:21:07.920 view. His endorsement of the 996 working hour 00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:10.599 system. Working 9 a .m. to 9 p .m. six days a 00:21:10.599 --> 00:21:13.099 week. He didn't just endorse it. He defended 00:21:13.099 --> 00:21:16.319 it, calling it a huge blessing necessary for 00:21:16.319 --> 00:21:19.039 young people to achieve success. It garnered 00:21:19.039 --> 00:21:21.859 significant criticism. But it reflects the intense 00:21:21.859 --> 00:21:24.839 mindset in China's tech culture. It's a brutal 00:21:24.839 --> 00:21:26.980 demand on the present, but it's dramatically 00:21:26.980 --> 00:21:29.500 contradicted by his utopian future predictions 00:21:29.500 --> 00:21:32.460 about AI. Right. He balances that sacrifice with 00:21:32.460 --> 00:21:35.240 this optimistic vision. He suggested AI would 00:21:35.240 --> 00:21:37.819 lead to a life of greater leisure with four -hour 00:21:37.819 --> 00:21:40.299 workdays, three days a week. He was also skeptical 00:21:40.299 --> 00:21:43.380 that AI could ever truly replace humans in key 00:21:43.380 --> 00:21:46.140 areas. He argued that true success requires a 00:21:46.140 --> 00:21:48.640 love quotient, a blend of emotional capacity, 00:21:49.059 --> 00:21:51.450 vision, and... and empathy that machines lack. 00:21:51.670 --> 00:21:54.769 And his views on state planning are highly provocative. 00:21:55.009 --> 00:21:58.029 In 2017, he made a stunning claim advocating 00:21:58.029 --> 00:22:01.089 for using big data and AI to implement elements 00:22:01.089 --> 00:22:03.390 of a planned economy. He argued that historical 00:22:03.390 --> 00:22:05.920 models failed because of information gaps. He 00:22:05.920 --> 00:22:07.980 proposed that the perfect real -time information 00:22:07.980 --> 00:22:10.519 from big data could theoretically make central 00:22:10.519 --> 00:22:13.039 planning effective. A very appealing idea for 00:22:13.039 --> 00:22:15.240 Beijing. Finally, his philanthropic footprint 00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:19.079 is enormous. It provides a massive global platform 00:22:19.079 --> 00:22:22.000 for him outside of finance. He founded the Jack 00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:25.339 Ma Foundation, focused on education, the environment, 00:22:25.539 --> 00:22:27.940 and public health. His commitment to the environment 00:22:27.940 --> 00:22:30.799 is particularly longstanding. He became chairman 00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:33.079 of the Nature Conservancy's China program board 00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:35.380 the day after he stepped down as Alibaba CEO. 00:22:35.930 --> 00:22:38.250 And his philanthropic reach is truly global. 00:22:38.369 --> 00:22:40.490 We saw it during the Sichuan earthquake, the 00:22:40.490 --> 00:22:42.789 Nepal earthquake. And especially during the early 00:22:42.789 --> 00:22:45.710 days of the COVID -19 pandemic, the Jack Ma Foundation 00:22:45.710 --> 00:22:48.990 became one of the most visible global philanthropic 00:22:48.990 --> 00:22:51.829 forces, donating massive quantities of medical 00:22:51.829 --> 00:22:54.170 supplies everywhere. It's a public role that 00:22:54.170 --> 00:22:56.269 is beneficial to the state, globally recognized, 00:22:56.609 --> 00:22:59.009 yet safely distanced from the volatile finance 00:22:59.009 --> 00:23:01.690 sector. So what does this extraordinary paradoxical 00:23:01.690 --> 00:23:05.009 journey mean for you? the learner. We've traced 00:23:05.009 --> 00:23:07.470 Ma's arc from a rejected English teacher who 00:23:07.470 --> 00:23:10.750 leveraged sheer will and soft skills to build 00:23:10.750 --> 00:23:13.309 an empire. To the mogul who publicly challenged 00:23:13.309 --> 00:23:15.670 the state's financial regime, paid a dramatic 00:23:15.670 --> 00:23:18.430 price, and was ultimately forced into this strategic 00:23:18.430 --> 00:23:21.309 retreat focused on sustainable agriculture. Ma's 00:23:21.309 --> 00:23:24.569 story underscores two critical, enduring lessons. 00:23:25.250 --> 00:23:28.369 First, vision and charisma can fundamentally 00:23:28.369 --> 00:23:31.569 outweigh technical expertise when scaling a global 00:23:31.569 --> 00:23:34.490 company. And second, it highlights the permanent 00:23:34.490 --> 00:23:37.369 structural tension in the Chinese system, the 00:23:37.369 --> 00:23:40.130 conflict between massive private innovation and 00:23:40.130 --> 00:23:42.349 the state's demand for absolute control. His 00:23:42.349 --> 00:23:45.410 return with dramatically reduced influence, going 00:23:45.410 --> 00:23:48.470 from 50 % voting rights to just 6 % in Ant Group, 00:23:48.670 --> 00:23:51.809 establishes the new careful equilibrium required 00:23:51.809 --> 00:23:54.470 for any large enterprise in China today. His 00:23:54.470 --> 00:23:56.410 trajectory teaches us that the highest ceiling 00:23:56.410 --> 00:23:58.809 of private financial success is always capped 00:23:58.809 --> 00:24:01.309 by political authority. He achieved the highest 00:24:01.309 --> 00:24:03.470 level of celebrity entrepreneurship, but the 00:24:03.470 --> 00:24:06.109 state successfully mandated his retreat. Which 00:24:06.109 --> 00:24:08.009 brings us back to the present and his strange 00:24:08.009 --> 00:24:10.809 new academic path. You now know the intricate 00:24:10.809 --> 00:24:13.230 details of this man, given his recent focus on 00:24:13.230 --> 00:24:15.450 sustainable agriculture and considering his initial 00:24:15.450 --> 00:24:17.549 world -changing success came from spotting a 00:24:17.549 --> 00:24:20.630 global information gap about China online. What 00:24:20.630 --> 00:24:23.309 new global information gap might Ma be preparing 00:24:23.309 --> 00:24:25.890 to fill? Is this a peaceful retirement or is 00:24:25.890 --> 00:24:28.369 it a strategic change of battlefield to a global 00:24:28.369 --> 00:24:31.049 industry food supply that is becoming as critically 00:24:31.049 --> 00:24:34.210 important and as poorly digitized as e -commerce 00:24:34.210 --> 00:24:36.869 was three decades ago? It's a provocative question 00:24:36.869 --> 00:24:39.349 to consider as he enters this new phase of conditional 00:24:39.349 --> 00:24:42.930 influence. Welcome to the debate. For more than 00:24:42.930 --> 00:24:46.390 two decades, Jack Ma's career was really the 00:24:46.390 --> 00:24:49.220 story of China's economic explosion. He took 00:24:49.220 --> 00:24:52.220 Alibaba from, what, an idea in an apartment to 00:24:52.220 --> 00:24:55.799 a global giant. Exactly. But since late 2020, 00:24:55.960 --> 00:24:59.579 we've seen this profound shift, a very public 00:24:59.579 --> 00:25:02.619 retreat from corporate life and a new focus on 00:25:02.619 --> 00:25:06.519 education, philanthropy, and surprisingly, agricultural 00:25:06.519 --> 00:25:10.599 research. And this all happened right as Beijing 00:25:10.599 --> 00:25:14.279 launched a huge regulatory crackdown on its tech 00:25:14.279 --> 00:25:17.039 sector. Right. Which brings us to our central 00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:20.210 question. Is this pivot by Ma, is it a genuine 00:25:20.210 --> 00:25:22.950 personal choice, you know, a new chapter he's 00:25:22.950 --> 00:25:26.089 wanted for a long time? Or was it purely a strategic 00:25:26.089 --> 00:25:29.490 necessity, basically a course correction forced 00:25:29.490 --> 00:25:32.309 on him by intense government pressure? And that's 00:25:32.309 --> 00:25:34.789 where we differ. I'll be arguing that while the 00:25:34.789 --> 00:25:37.210 political climate definitely complicated things, 00:25:37.690 --> 00:25:40.390 Ma's actions really do reflect a longstanding 00:25:40.390 --> 00:25:43.710 personal commitment to this kind of work. It 00:25:43.710 --> 00:25:46.329 was a proactive desire to step back that he'd 00:25:46.329 --> 00:25:48.819 been planning for years. And I'm going to argue 00:25:48.819 --> 00:25:51.700 that the evidence, specifically the timing and 00:25:51.700 --> 00:25:54.119 the sheer speed of his corporate dismantling, 00:25:54.160 --> 00:25:57.359 points overwhelmingly to an externally dictated 00:25:57.359 --> 00:26:00.779 strategy, a move he had to make for political 00:26:00.779 --> 00:26:04.759 and, frankly, financial survival. OK, so let's 00:26:04.759 --> 00:26:08.650 begin by establishing the long game here. My 00:26:08.650 --> 00:26:11.329 position is really founded on the evidence that 00:26:11.329 --> 00:26:14.690 shows Ma was talking about retirement very explicitly 00:26:14.690 --> 00:26:19.009 long before the regulatory storm of 2020. I mean, 00:26:19.029 --> 00:26:21.710 consider this. He announced his intention to 00:26:21.710 --> 00:26:24.289 step down as executive chairman in September 00:26:24.289 --> 00:26:28.450 2018. That's nearly two full years before the 00:26:28.450 --> 00:26:32.309 Ant Group IPO was halted. Not a knee -jerk reaction. 00:26:32.730 --> 00:26:35.529 And it wasn't just talk. His philanthropic work 00:26:35.529 --> 00:26:38.559 was already substantive. He'd co -founded the 00:26:38.559 --> 00:26:41.259 Jack Ma Foundation, which is dedicated to education, 00:26:41.619 --> 00:26:44.819 the environment, public health. He was a trustee 00:26:44.819 --> 00:26:47.440 for the Nature Conservancy in China way back 00:26:47.440 --> 00:26:50.720 in 2009. He even stepped down as Alibaba's CEO 00:26:50.720 --> 00:26:53.980 in 2013, partly to free up his time for this 00:26:53.980 --> 00:26:57.339 kind of societal work. So his recent focus, like 00:26:57.339 --> 00:26:59.819 being a visiting professor at Tokyo College researching 00:26:59.819 --> 00:27:02.539 sustainable agriculture, it just feels like the 00:27:02.539 --> 00:27:05.680 next logical step in a journey he started a long, 00:27:05.759 --> 00:27:08.650 long time ago. I think that evidence of longstanding 00:27:08.650 --> 00:27:12.450 interest is compelling, but I think it risks 00:27:12.450 --> 00:27:15.450 confusing a wish with the reality of its implementation. 00:27:15.829 --> 00:27:19.150 My position is that focusing on his prior statements 00:27:19.150 --> 00:27:23.230 ignores the undeniable force and really the speed 00:27:23.230 --> 00:27:25.930 of the state's reaction right after he made those 00:27:25.930 --> 00:27:28.670 controversial comments. The rapid dismantling 00:27:28.670 --> 00:27:31.970 of his corporate control is, for me, the proof 00:27:31.970 --> 00:27:34.569 that this pivot was externally dictated, not 00:27:34.569 --> 00:27:38.460 voluntarily realized. OK. The key timeline really 00:27:38.460 --> 00:27:41.759 starts in October 2020. Ma gives that infamous 00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:44.819 speech in Shanghai. He calls state banks pawn 00:27:44.819 --> 00:27:48.460 shops. He criticizes the Basel Accords as a club 00:27:48.460 --> 00:27:51.960 for the elderly. And then, days later, the hammer 00:27:51.960 --> 00:27:56.400 drops. The $37 billion Ant Group IPO, the biggest 00:27:56.400 --> 00:27:58.819 ever, is halted. I mean, that's not a peaceful 00:27:58.819 --> 00:28:01.990 retirement. That is a forced retreat. after a 00:28:01.990 --> 00:28:04.569 direct confrontation with state power. And the 00:28:04.569 --> 00:28:06.829 most definitive evidence came later. In January 00:28:06.829 --> 00:28:10.329 2023, Ant Group restructures and Ma's voting 00:28:10.329 --> 00:28:13.210 rights are just decimated. They go from over 00:28:13.210 --> 00:28:18.049 50 % to just 6%. Right. The company itself says 00:28:18.049 --> 00:28:20.890 this is to ensure no single shareholder has a 00:28:20.890 --> 00:28:23.730 controlling stake. When you lose that much control 00:28:23.730 --> 00:28:26.190 of your flagship company, that isn't some philosophical 00:28:26.190 --> 00:28:29.670 shift. That is state intervention. And this extends 00:28:29.670 --> 00:28:32.259 to his movements. He only came back to China 00:28:32.259 --> 00:28:36.180 in March 2023 after being, by all reports, persuaded 00:28:36.180 --> 00:28:38.759 to return by the premier after spending a lot 00:28:38.759 --> 00:28:41.740 of time in Tokyo. Which brings us to the significance 00:28:41.740 --> 00:28:44.920 of that timing and his public disappearance. 00:28:45.440 --> 00:28:48.160 It's just incredibly difficult to separate the 00:28:48.160 --> 00:28:50.980 two timelines. I mean, yes, he announced an intention 00:28:50.980 --> 00:28:55.019 to retire years prior, but the acceleration and 00:28:55.019 --> 00:28:58.019 the severity of his actual retreat, stepping 00:28:58.019 --> 00:29:00.440 down from the Alibaba board in October 2020, 00:29:01.000 --> 00:29:04.019 and then just vanishing from public view, it 00:29:04.019 --> 00:29:06.720 all coincides precisely with the state actively 00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:09.339 killing his biggest business interest. It is 00:29:09.339 --> 00:29:11.700 so hard to see that as anything other than, you 00:29:11.700 --> 00:29:14.079 know, a high stakes self -preservation tactic, 00:29:14.200 --> 00:29:17.039 or maybe even outright coercion. The scrutiny 00:29:17.039 --> 00:29:19.579 didn't just slow him down, it silenced him, and 00:29:19.579 --> 00:29:22.220 it dismantled the very IPO that would have cemented 00:29:22.220 --> 00:29:24.680 his power. I see why you draw that conclusion, 00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:28.019 I do. But let me offer a slightly different perspective. 00:29:28.559 --> 00:29:30.559 focusing on what the regulators were actually 00:29:30.559 --> 00:29:33.720 trying to achieve. The intervention was, from 00:29:33.720 --> 00:29:36.579 their point of view, largely focused on Ant Group's 00:29:36.579 --> 00:29:39.000 financial structure and the systemic risk it 00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:42.440 posed, not just Moss' criticism. We have to remember 00:29:42.440 --> 00:29:45.640 the context. Ant Group was getting about 90 % 00:29:45.640 --> 00:29:48.339 of its revenue from financial services, lending, 00:29:48.539 --> 00:29:51.460 insurance, but it was regulated like a tech company. 00:29:51.779 --> 00:29:53.980 Regulators were genuinely concerned about its 00:29:53.980 --> 00:29:56.519 massive scale and the risk of a financial bubble. 00:29:56.799 --> 00:30:00.470 Sure. But the timing? Well, Inma's speech was 00:30:00.470 --> 00:30:03.789 just extraordinarily ill -timed. He wasn't just 00:30:03.789 --> 00:30:06.710 taking a swipe at local banks. He was mocking 00:30:06.710 --> 00:30:09.549 the Basel Accords, which are the bedrock of global 00:30:09.549 --> 00:30:12.069 banking stability. The government's reaction 00:30:12.069 --> 00:30:13.930 was about proving they control the financial 00:30:13.930 --> 00:30:17.049 system, which is essential to them. His silence 00:30:17.049 --> 00:30:19.710 afterwards, while dramatic, could have also been 00:30:19.710 --> 00:30:22.190 a calculated move to limit the damage among investors, 00:30:22.450 --> 00:30:25.410 among his own employees, who lost billions when 00:30:25.410 --> 00:30:28.240 that IPO stalled. There was huge internal pressure, 00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:31.480 not just external. That argument feels like it 00:30:31.480 --> 00:30:34.200 minimizes the political will required to take 00:30:34.200 --> 00:30:36.700 down the country's biggest ever IPO. You know, 00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:39.220 systemic financial risk is often the most convenient 00:30:39.220 --> 00:30:41.440 public reason for exercising political control. 00:30:41.640 --> 00:30:43.859 The core issue for me is still the control he 00:30:43.859 --> 00:30:46.920 lost, which I think gets us to the shift in corporate 00:30:46.920 --> 00:30:50.220 power. Well, proponents of my view would point 00:30:50.220 --> 00:30:53.099 out that he willingly divested that control to 00:30:53.099 --> 00:30:55.700 focus on these other pursuits, like his academic 00:30:55.700 --> 00:30:58.319 work. And there are reports suggesting he still 00:30:58.319 --> 00:31:00.680 had a lot of agency. The Wall Street Journal 00:31:00.680 --> 00:31:03.799 reported that in early 2023, Maul was the one 00:31:03.799 --> 00:31:06.140 who actually orchestrated the breakup of Alibaba 00:31:06.140 --> 00:31:08.660 into six separate firms, and he did it while 00:31:08.660 --> 00:31:10.900 he was traveling overseas. That speaks to a pretty 00:31:10.900 --> 00:31:14.039 profound level of operational influence. He was 00:31:14.039 --> 00:31:16.660 shaping the final form of his own empire, which 00:31:16.660 --> 00:31:18.859 suggests he was negotiating his retreat, not 00:31:18.859 --> 00:31:21.839 just being pushed out. I'm sorry, I just don't 00:31:21.839 --> 00:31:24.900 buy the negotiation argument. The fact that he 00:31:24.900 --> 00:31:27.259 was restructuring the pieces doesn't change the 00:31:27.259 --> 00:31:29.299 fact that the state had already cut the head 00:31:29.299 --> 00:31:31.720 off the snake. The reduction of his voting rights 00:31:31.720 --> 00:31:34.539 in Ant Group from over 50 percent down to 6 percent. 00:31:34.859 --> 00:31:37.779 That's the definitive evidence. Power was stripped, 00:31:37.960 --> 00:31:41.339 not voluntarily given away. I mean, no genuine 00:31:41.339 --> 00:31:43.740 self -directed retirement involves an earthquake 00:31:43.740 --> 00:31:46.380 like that. And the government praised that change, 00:31:46.559 --> 00:31:48.619 framing it as an improvement in corporate governance. 00:31:49.539 --> 00:31:52.299 That signals state objectives being fulfilled, 00:31:52.400 --> 00:31:54.839 not Ma's. And you mentioned his public appearances. 00:31:55.039 --> 00:31:57.599 Look at his appearance in February 2025 with 00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:00.079 Xi Jinping. His image was on the main state -run 00:32:00.079 --> 00:32:02.460 news program, a very controlled signal of approval. 00:32:02.660 --> 00:32:05.380 But the official news agency pointedly left out 00:32:05.380 --> 00:32:08.220 his name. He's allowed to exist as a quiet, compliant 00:32:08.220 --> 00:32:10.940 image, but not as an independent voice. He's 00:32:10.940 --> 00:32:13.180 operating within very strict political constraints. 00:32:13.559 --> 00:32:16.539 OK, but if this transition is entirely dictated 00:32:16.539 --> 00:32:19.500 by the state. Why is his new focus so specific 00:32:19.500 --> 00:32:22.160 and intellectually rigorous? Why not just retire 00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:24.640 quietly to a golf course? Which brings us to 00:32:24.640 --> 00:32:27.420 interpreting this new focus on education, agriculture. 00:32:27.960 --> 00:32:30.400 Well, you have to compare it to his past rhetoric. 00:32:30.440 --> 00:32:33.039 It's a jarring difference. Ma was the guy who 00:32:33.039 --> 00:32:35.380 got international criticism for defending the 00:32:35.380 --> 00:32:38.359 90 -96 work system, nine to nine, six days a 00:32:38.359 --> 00:32:41.119 week. He glorified that intense corporate culture. 00:32:41.259 --> 00:32:44.720 And he advocated for using big data and AI to 00:32:44.720 --> 00:32:47.210 implement parts of a planned economy. I mean, 00:32:47.210 --> 00:32:49.529 this was a man committed to a very aggressive, 00:32:49.609 --> 00:32:52.750 centralized business ideology. Right. His sudden 00:32:52.750 --> 00:32:55.369 shift to being an academic focused on sustainable 00:32:55.369 --> 00:32:58.609 agriculture is, well, if you're cynical, it's 00:32:58.609 --> 00:33:02.049 a calculated deployment of soft power. It's non 00:33:02.049 --> 00:33:04.869 -controversial. It aligns perfectly with government 00:33:04.869 --> 00:33:07.869 priorities like food security. And it gives them 00:33:07.869 --> 00:33:11.670 a safe, apolitical public identity. It's an intellectual 00:33:11.670 --> 00:33:14.450 safe harbor. That's an interesting analysis, 00:33:14.650 --> 00:33:17.690 but I'd frame his intellectual path a bit differently. 00:33:18.089 --> 00:33:21.470 I don't see his shift to agriculture as just 00:33:21.470 --> 00:33:24.789 a retreat to a safe harbor. I actually see it 00:33:24.789 --> 00:33:27.230 as a redirection of that same massive ambition 00:33:27.230 --> 00:33:29.970 toward a different kind of societal engineering. 00:33:30.829 --> 00:33:33.609 Ma's past comments, even the aggressive ones, 00:33:33.789 --> 00:33:35.769 they always showed an interest in large -scale 00:33:35.769 --> 00:33:38.589 transformation. He predicted AI would lead to 00:33:38.589 --> 00:33:41.599 three -day work weeks. His philanthropy was focused 00:33:41.599 --> 00:33:44.339 on what he called sustainable money, wealth that's 00:33:44.339 --> 00:33:47.160 good for society. The current focus on agriculture 00:33:47.160 --> 00:33:50.079 and food tech is incredibly complex, it's long 00:33:50.079 --> 00:33:52.599 -term, and it requires sophisticated tech and 00:33:52.599 --> 00:33:55.400 logistics, which are his core strengths. I mean, 00:33:55.420 --> 00:33:57.460 he started the Who You Pan school back in 2015 00:33:57.460 --> 00:34:00.359 to tackle these big societal challenges. So his 00:34:00.359 --> 00:34:02.579 post -business life really feels like a genuine 00:34:02.579 --> 00:34:05.119 application of his skills to problems he'd already 00:34:05.119 --> 00:34:07.380 identified as important. So we've established 00:34:07.380 --> 00:34:11.099 he had the intention to retire, but it seems 00:34:11.099 --> 00:34:13.739 the political establishment controlled the mechanism 00:34:13.739 --> 00:34:17.099 of that retirement. To summarize my view, it 00:34:17.099 --> 00:34:20.280 really boils down to the institutional dismantling 00:34:20.280 --> 00:34:22.340 that happened the moment he stepped out of line. 00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:25.539 The reduction of his ownership in Ant Group from 00:34:25.539 --> 00:34:30.619 50 % to 6 % is not voluntary. That's a forced 00:34:30.619 --> 00:34:33.480 correction. That, plus the reports he had to 00:34:33.480 --> 00:34:36.820 be persuaded to return home, shows his pivot 00:34:36.820 --> 00:34:40.139 was a response to political pressure. It's a 00:34:40.139 --> 00:34:43.219 survival strategy masked as intellectual freedom. 00:34:43.599 --> 00:34:45.860 And while I absolutely concede that the timing 00:34:45.860 --> 00:34:47.699 was dramatically influenced by the regulatory 00:34:47.699 --> 00:34:50.480 climate, we can't just dismiss two decades of 00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:53.230 groundwork. From the Jack Ma Foundation to his 00:34:53.230 --> 00:34:56.090 2018 announcement, the foundation for his current 00:34:56.090 --> 00:34:58.269 life was laid long before the political fight. 00:34:58.449 --> 00:35:01.030 His choice to focus on something as complex as 00:35:01.030 --> 00:35:03.889 sustainable agriculture suggests a genuine use 00:35:03.889 --> 00:35:07.210 of his new freedom, however circumscribed that 00:35:07.210 --> 00:35:09.750 freedom may be now. It aligns with a long -stated 00:35:09.750 --> 00:35:11.849 desire to create value beyond just commerce. 00:35:12.170 --> 00:35:15.190 So the material really leaves us with a difficult 00:35:15.190 --> 00:35:19.159 synthesis. A man who wanted to retire, but whose 00:35:19.159 --> 00:35:21.420 retirement then became a political necessity. 00:35:21.780 --> 00:35:25.360 Exactly. A necessity that perhaps allows him 00:35:25.360 --> 00:35:28.619 only the freedom to pursue politically non -threatening 00:35:28.619 --> 00:35:32.219 goals. The life of Jack Ma continues to present 00:35:32.219 --> 00:35:35.019 this complex picture where personal ambition 00:35:35.019 --> 00:35:37.900 and external forces are in constant tension. 00:35:38.059 --> 00:35:40.679 And we're left exploring that line where genuine 00:35:40.679 --> 00:35:43.480 personal choice ends and political necessity 00:35:43.480 --> 00:35:44.079 begins.