WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.740 Welcome to the Deep Dive, the place where we 00:00:01.740 --> 00:00:04.599 take a monumental stack of sources filter out 00:00:04.599 --> 00:00:07.099 the noise and deliver the insights you need to 00:00:07.099 --> 00:00:09.539 truly understand the world's most massive cultural 00:00:09.539 --> 00:00:12.000 forces. And today, wow, we are talking about 00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:15.339 a true giant. We are strapping on our web shooters, 00:00:15.519 --> 00:00:18.500 testing our gamma tolerance and shouting Excelsior 00:00:18.500 --> 00:00:20.739 because we are launching a deep dive into the 00:00:20.739 --> 00:00:24.879 extraordinary life, the towering legacy and the 00:00:24.879 --> 00:00:27.679 total revolution engineered by Stanley Martin 00:00:27.679 --> 00:00:30.359 Lieber. The one and only Stanley. Exactly. You 00:00:30.359 --> 00:00:33.079 know, Stanley, born in 1922, was so much more 00:00:33.079 --> 00:00:35.549 than just. comic book writer or an editor for 00:00:35.549 --> 00:00:37.729 two crucial decades he was really the primary 00:00:37.729 --> 00:00:40.049 creative leader for what became marvel comics 00:00:40.049 --> 00:00:43.409 he took what was basically a small struggling 00:00:43.409 --> 00:00:46.149 publishing division timely comics a family -run 00:00:46.149 --> 00:00:49.250 business and he transformed it using this revolutionary 00:00:49.250 --> 00:00:51.609 approach to storytelling into the multimedia 00:00:51.609 --> 00:00:54.189 giant that i mean let's be honest dictates so 00:00:54.189 --> 00:00:56.590 much of the global film industry today so our 00:00:56.590 --> 00:00:59.859 mission today is to unpack exactly how How does 00:00:59.859 --> 00:01:01.820 a kid who dreamed of writing the great American 00:01:01.820 --> 00:01:04.599 novel end up co -creating the most successful 00:01:04.599 --> 00:01:07.340 fictional universe in history? It's an incredible 00:01:07.340 --> 00:01:10.659 journey. We're going to trace it from the poverty 00:01:10.659 --> 00:01:13.980 of the Depression era Bronx through that white 00:01:13.980 --> 00:01:16.980 -hot creative crucible of the 1960s Marvel Revolution 00:01:16.980 --> 00:01:20.900 all the way up to his incredibly complex and 00:01:20.900 --> 00:01:24.980 sometimes, well, fraught late -life role as Hollywood's 00:01:24.980 --> 00:01:27.079 favorite figurehead. And that late -life role, 00:01:27.120 --> 00:01:29.959 it gives us this staggering opening statistic 00:01:29.959 --> 00:01:32.879 because of his ubiquitous, you know, his highly 00:01:32.879 --> 00:01:35.359 anticipated cameo appearances in all those Marvel 00:01:35.359 --> 00:01:37.340 films. You waited for them in every movie. We 00:01:37.340 --> 00:01:39.540 did. And because of them, our source materials 00:01:39.540 --> 00:01:42.780 confirm that Stan Lee holds the almost unbelievable 00:01:42.780 --> 00:01:45.659 distinction of being the actor with the highest 00:01:45.659 --> 00:01:48.319 grossing film total ever recorded. That's just 00:01:48.319 --> 00:01:50.920 wild. The scale is immense, stretching from, 00:01:51.019 --> 00:01:54.900 what, a $2 .50 essay contest prize all the way 00:01:54.900 --> 00:01:57.719 to a multi -billion dollar box office talent. 00:01:58.150 --> 00:02:00.230 That's the scope of the life we are analyzing 00:02:00.230 --> 00:02:02.349 today. OK, so let's unpack that foundation. To 00:02:02.349 --> 00:02:04.730 really get Stanley the man, we have to go back 00:02:04.730 --> 00:02:06.650 to Stanley Martin Lieber, the kid. Yeah. He was 00:02:06.650 --> 00:02:09.729 born December 28th, 1922 in Manhattan. Right. 00:02:09.830 --> 00:02:12.189 But his early circumstances, they deeply shaped 00:02:12.189 --> 00:02:14.050 everything he would go on to write. For sure. 00:02:14.400 --> 00:02:17.500 His parents, Celia Solomon and Jack Lieber, were 00:02:17.500 --> 00:02:20.400 Romanian -born Jewish immigrants. And the defining 00:02:20.400 --> 00:02:23.300 context of Stanley's early childhood was the 00:02:23.300 --> 00:02:26.139 Great Depression. It hit them hard. His father 00:02:26.139 --> 00:02:28.120 was a dress cutter. A dress cutter by trade, 00:02:28.259 --> 00:02:30.819 yeah. Yeah. But work became sporadic, sometimes 00:02:30.819 --> 00:02:34.240 non -existent. And that economic strain, it forced 00:02:34.240 --> 00:02:36.819 the family to move all the time, eventually settling 00:02:36.819 --> 00:02:39.699 in this cramped apartment at 1720 University 00:02:39.699 --> 00:02:42.400 Avenue in the Bronx. And that location, that 00:02:42.400 --> 00:02:45.210 apartment in the Bronx. is so crucial. It speaks 00:02:45.210 --> 00:02:48.050 directly to the lack of space, the lack of comfort 00:02:48.050 --> 00:02:50.289 in his youth. Totally. He and his younger brother, 00:02:50.409 --> 00:02:52.969 Larry Lieber, who, you know, also became a longtime 00:02:52.969 --> 00:02:56.069 Marvel writer and artist himself. Right. The 00:02:56.069 --> 00:02:58.370 whole family was in. The whole family. They shared 00:02:58.370 --> 00:03:00.530 a single bedroom while their parents were sleeping 00:03:00.530 --> 00:03:02.610 on a fold -out couch in the main living space. 00:03:03.090 --> 00:03:05.909 This is not the life of a future celebrity. It 00:03:05.909 --> 00:03:08.449 was a life defined by instability. Which made 00:03:08.449 --> 00:03:10.430 him desperately seek an escape. And that escape 00:03:10.430 --> 00:03:13.460 came through pure imagination. They often talked 00:03:13.460 --> 00:03:15.659 about how he was just profoundly influenced by 00:03:15.659 --> 00:03:18.740 books and movies, these grand, heroic narratives. 00:03:19.099 --> 00:03:21.860 He loved figures like Errol Flynn, the swashbucklers. 00:03:21.960 --> 00:03:24.400 Oh, absolutely. But the most revealing influence 00:03:24.400 --> 00:03:27.800 he ever cited was the Scarlet Pimpernel. He actually 00:03:27.800 --> 00:03:30.039 called that character the first superhero I had 00:03:30.039 --> 00:03:32.629 read about. Think about that for a second. It's 00:03:32.629 --> 00:03:35.689 perfect, isn't it? A masked figure with a secret 00:03:35.689 --> 00:03:38.169 identity fighting for justice against oppressive 00:03:38.169 --> 00:03:40.750 forces, completely outside that typical capes 00:03:40.750 --> 00:03:43.169 and tights mold. It perfectly foreshadows his 00:03:43.169 --> 00:03:46.449 own later creations. So he had the spark, this 00:03:46.449 --> 00:03:50.090 desire for grand, heroic stories. But his core 00:03:50.090 --> 00:03:53.229 ambition, his career goal, was all about one 00:03:53.229 --> 00:03:57.189 thing. Literary respectability. Yes. He was grinding 00:03:57.189 --> 00:03:59.169 away at all these part -time jobs, not just to 00:03:59.169 --> 00:04:02.030 survive, but specifically to finance his real 00:04:02.030 --> 00:04:05.270 dream, writing the great American novel. And 00:04:05.270 --> 00:04:07.509 he looked down on comics. The field that would 00:04:07.509 --> 00:04:10.229 make him famous, he considered it, well, completely 00:04:10.229 --> 00:04:12.490 beneath that ambition. It's the ultimate irony. 00:04:12.750 --> 00:04:15.509 The list of his part -time jobs is an absolute 00:04:15.509 --> 00:04:18.589 testament to that early grind. He wrote obituaries 00:04:18.589 --> 00:04:21.449 for a news service. Imagine a future comedic 00:04:21.449 --> 00:04:24.339 powerhouse writing strictly about death. I know. 00:04:24.480 --> 00:04:27.360 He created press releases for the National Tuberculosis 00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:30.300 Center. He was an usher at the huge Rivoli Theater 00:04:30.300 --> 00:04:32.579 on Broadway. He sold newspaper subscriptions. 00:04:32.939 --> 00:04:36.079 He was building up this rich supply of real world 00:04:36.079 --> 00:04:38.500 experiences, even if he found the jobs, you know, 00:04:38.500 --> 00:04:41.579 frustrating. And his literary ambition wasn't 00:04:41.579 --> 00:04:44.220 just a dream. There's that great anecdote about 00:04:44.220 --> 00:04:47.699 the essay competition that really shows his unrelenting 00:04:47.699 --> 00:04:49.680 drive. Oh, the New York Herald Tribune story. 00:04:50.060 --> 00:04:52.040 Yeah, he claimed he won their biggest news of 00:04:52.040 --> 00:04:54.439 the week contest three straight weeks in a row, 00:04:54.540 --> 00:04:57.060 forcing the newspaper to ask him to step down 00:04:57.060 --> 00:04:59.500 to give other people a chance. It's such a great 00:04:59.500 --> 00:05:02.000 Stanley story. And as much as we want that dramatic 00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:04.399 version to be true, our sources note that the 00:05:04.399 --> 00:05:07.120 reality was a bit more modest, though still impressive. 00:05:07.379 --> 00:05:09.439 What actually happened? He likely won a seventh 00:05:09.439 --> 00:05:12.620 place prize of $2 .50 and earned two honorable 00:05:12.620 --> 00:05:15.519 mention awards. But even those smaller achievements 00:05:15.519 --> 00:05:18.279 got him recognized as this promising, persistent 00:05:18.279 --> 00:05:21.879 young writer. And crucially, he graduated early 00:05:21.879 --> 00:05:24.879 from DeWitt Clinton High School at just 16 and 00:05:24.879 --> 00:05:29.279 a half in 1939. And that early grade. in 1939, 00:05:29.779 --> 00:05:32.360 that brings us right to his reluctant entry into 00:05:32.360 --> 00:05:34.439 the world of comics. And it was all because of 00:05:34.439 --> 00:05:37.839 family connections. 100%. His uncle, Robbie Solomon, 00:05:38.060 --> 00:05:40.480 helped him get a job at Martin Goodman's new 00:05:40.480 --> 00:05:43.240 Timely Comics division, which was the direct 00:05:43.240 --> 00:05:46.620 ancestor of Marvel. Goodman, the publisher, was 00:05:46.620 --> 00:05:49.360 married to Lai's cousin, Jean. It was a deeply 00:05:49.360 --> 00:05:51.759 familial setup. And he was hired as a general 00:05:51.759 --> 00:05:55.660 assistant by the editor, Joe Simon. And the initial 00:05:55.660 --> 00:05:59.839 duties were famously... Menial, right? Oh, decidedly 00:05:59.839 --> 00:06:02.600 so. A world away from the literary salons he 00:06:02.600 --> 00:06:05.000 dreamed of. He was the office boy. He filled 00:06:05.000 --> 00:06:06.860 the inkwells for the artists. He was the runner 00:06:06.860 --> 00:06:09.500 who fetched lunch. He did proofreading. And maybe 00:06:09.500 --> 00:06:11.480 most tellingly, he had to erase all the initial 00:06:11.480 --> 00:06:13.639 pencil lines from the finished pages. And that 00:06:13.639 --> 00:06:15.920 menial start is precisely what leads to the most 00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:19.300 famous pen name in pop culture. It is. He made 00:06:19.300 --> 00:06:21.459 his official comic book debut in Captain America 00:06:21.459 --> 00:06:25.439 Comics No. 3, May 1941, writing this tiny text 00:06:25.439 --> 00:06:27.600 filler piece called Captain America Foils the 00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:29.439 Traitor's Revenge. And he used the pseudonym 00:06:29.439 --> 00:06:32.579 Stanley. Deliberately. It was a shortened version 00:06:32.579 --> 00:06:35.639 of Stanley, and he used it specifically to save 00:06:35.639 --> 00:06:38.220 his birth name, Stanley Martin Lieber, for the 00:06:38.220 --> 00:06:40.180 serious literature he still planned to write 00:06:40.180 --> 00:06:42.899 one day. He felt genuine shame about working 00:06:42.899 --> 00:06:45.740 in the low -status, you know, pulp medium of 00:06:45.740 --> 00:06:47.819 comic books. It's the ultimate historical irony. 00:06:48.680 --> 00:06:51.980 The name he used to hide his identity became 00:06:51.980 --> 00:06:54.040 the identity that defined him for the entire 00:06:54.040 --> 00:06:57.100 world. And even in that tiny text story, there's 00:06:57.100 --> 00:06:59.180 a significant creative milestone, isn't there? 00:06:59.319 --> 00:07:02.459 There is. Within that little text filler, Lee 00:07:02.459 --> 00:07:05.819 debuted Captain America's trademark move, the 00:07:05.819 --> 00:07:08.000 ricocheting shield toss. Where it bounces off 00:07:08.000 --> 00:07:09.899 multiple opponents and comes right back to his 00:07:09.899 --> 00:07:13.000 hand. Exactly. This seemingly small contribution 00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:15.639 was later adapted back into the actual sequential 00:07:15.639 --> 00:07:18.279 art. It just shows that even in the very early 00:07:18.279 --> 00:07:20.680 days, he was already focused on defining the 00:07:20.680 --> 00:07:23.259 iconic visual language of heroism. And then he 00:07:23.259 --> 00:07:26.480 moved up incredibly quickly. So fast. The original 00:07:26.480 --> 00:07:28.660 creative partners, Joe Simon and Jack Kirby, 00:07:28.819 --> 00:07:30.939 they had a falling out with the publisher Goodman, 00:07:31.000 --> 00:07:34.399 and they left timely in late 1941. And Goodman 00:07:34.399 --> 00:07:37.120 needed a new chief editor and art director, so 00:07:37.120 --> 00:07:40.019 he installed the barely 19 -year -old Stanley 00:07:40.019 --> 00:07:42.879 Lieber in the role. That is a staggering promotion. 00:07:43.160 --> 00:07:45.379 The young man who was hired to erase pencil lines 00:07:45.379 --> 00:07:48.079 was suddenly the editor and art director, and 00:07:48.079 --> 00:07:50.439 he stayed in that position, in one form or another, 00:07:50.660 --> 00:07:54.920 until 1972, a three -decade tenure. But that 00:07:54.920 --> 00:07:57.220 incredible run was interrupted by World War II. 00:07:57.709 --> 00:08:00.110 He served in the U .S. Army Signal Corps from 00:08:00.110 --> 00:08:05.110 42 to 45, initially focused on repairing communications 00:08:05.110 --> 00:08:08.069 equipment. But he was soon transferred, leveraging 00:08:08.069 --> 00:08:10.389 his writing skills, into the training film division. 00:08:10.730 --> 00:08:12.990 There he worked on writing manuals, training 00:08:12.990 --> 00:08:15.470 films, slogans, all designed to help the war 00:08:15.470 --> 00:08:18.389 effort. And his military classification was unique. 00:08:18.589 --> 00:08:21.209 Playwright. He would later joke that only nine 00:08:21.209 --> 00:08:23.790 men in the entire U .S. Army held that exact 00:08:23.790 --> 00:08:26.550 title. He was always distinguishing himself even 00:08:26.550 --> 00:08:28.470 in the service. And he was working alongside 00:08:28.470 --> 00:08:30.750 some truly incredible talents during that time. 00:08:31.100 --> 00:08:33.500 He really was. The training film division was 00:08:33.500 --> 00:08:36.659 this hub of creative genius. He worked alongside 00:08:36.659 --> 00:08:38.779 the legendary Hollywood director Frank Capra 00:08:38.779 --> 00:08:41.139 and the children's author Theodore Geisel. Better 00:08:41.139 --> 00:08:44.179 known to us as Dr. Seuss. Dr. Seuss. It was a 00:08:44.179 --> 00:08:46.580 fascinating, high -level creative environment, 00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:49.019 totally separate from comics. And that wartime 00:08:49.019 --> 00:08:51.799 service also gifted us the ultimate anecdote 00:08:51.799 --> 00:08:55.220 about his dedication to deadlines. Yes, the deadline 00:08:55.220 --> 00:08:57.720 incident. This is great. Lee was still sending 00:08:57.720 --> 00:09:00.100 in assignments to timely on a weekly basis, and 00:09:00.100 --> 00:09:03.120 he had to meet this strict Monday deadline. Yeah. 00:09:03.240 --> 00:09:06.580 Well, one week, the mail clerk failed to deliver 00:09:06.580 --> 00:09:09.620 the assignment letter. Lee saw the envelope from 00:09:09.620 --> 00:09:13.299 Timely inside his closed mailbox and in a complete 00:09:13.299 --> 00:09:16.220 panic refused to wait. What did he do? He took 00:09:16.220 --> 00:09:18.799 a screwdriver and physically unscrewed the hinges 00:09:18.799 --> 00:09:20.940 of the mailbox to get the assignment. That's 00:09:20.940 --> 00:09:24.220 audacious. It is. He ended up facing tampering 00:09:24.220 --> 00:09:26.419 charges for illegally accessing federal property. 00:09:26.600 --> 00:09:29.159 But thankfully, a colonel intervened, recognized 00:09:29.159 --> 00:09:31.659 the absurdity of the situation and saved him 00:09:31.659 --> 00:09:34.379 from discipline. But it illustrates this deep. 00:09:34.700 --> 00:09:36.860 almost obsessive dedication to his commitments. 00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:39.200 Even for a job he supposedly didn't respect. 00:09:39.379 --> 00:09:43.080 Exactly. So after the war, by the mid -1950s, 00:09:43.100 --> 00:09:45.399 the company is now operating under the name Atlas 00:09:45.399 --> 00:09:47.940 Comics, and it was essentially a genre factory. 00:09:48.259 --> 00:09:50.799 They published everything. Everything. Romance, 00:09:50.799 --> 00:09:55.740 westerns, sci -fi. horror, crime. And Lee, as 00:09:55.740 --> 00:09:57.879 editor in chief, was responsible for generating 00:09:57.879 --> 00:10:01.200 a huge volume of this material. And the sheer 00:10:01.200 --> 00:10:03.580 breadth of it led to this creative exhaustion. 00:10:03.899 --> 00:10:06.539 He was burning out. Totally. By the end of the 00:10:06.539 --> 00:10:09.500 decade, he was so dissatisfied with the low status 00:10:09.500 --> 00:10:12.139 and limitations of the medium that he was seriously 00:10:12.139 --> 00:10:14.480 considering quitting comics for good. It was 00:10:14.480 --> 00:10:17.490 a creative lull. Kind of existential crisis for 00:10:17.490 --> 00:10:20.149 his career. But it was exactly that moment of 00:10:20.149 --> 00:10:22.590 resignation and dissatisfaction that set the 00:10:22.590 --> 00:10:25.990 stage for the massive, unexpected creative explosion 00:10:25.990 --> 00:10:29.009 of the 1960s. OK, so we're transitioning now 00:10:29.009 --> 00:10:32.029 to the moment the sources identify as the biggest 00:10:32.029 --> 00:10:34.750 catalyst for change. The superhero genre was 00:10:34.750 --> 00:10:37.230 reviving. Right. DC Comics had struck gold again, 00:10:37.330 --> 00:10:38.990 first with The Flash and then with the formation 00:10:38.990 --> 00:10:40.950 of the Justice League of America. They were a 00:10:40.950 --> 00:10:43.009 huge success. And Martin Goodman, the publisher 00:10:43.009 --> 00:10:45.500 of what was now Marvel, saw the money. dc was 00:10:45.500 --> 00:10:48.279 making and he challenged lee directly create 00:10:48.279 --> 00:10:51.019 a new superhero team for us and lee was approaching 00:10:51.019 --> 00:10:53.139 this final decision about whether to leave the 00:10:53.139 --> 00:10:56.220 industry and this ultimatum gave him this unexpected 00:10:56.220 --> 00:10:59.379 freedom and this is where his personal life intersects 00:10:59.379 --> 00:11:02.440 with history in a truly profound way his wife 00:11:02.440 --> 00:11:05.500 joan bucock offered the critical advice that 00:11:05.500 --> 00:11:08.159 changed everything. She knew how dissatisfied 00:11:08.159 --> 00:11:11.039 he was. And she suggested that since he was ready 00:11:11.039 --> 00:11:13.500 to quit comics anyway, he should just use this 00:11:13.500 --> 00:11:15.519 final assignment to write the stories he wanted 00:11:15.519 --> 00:11:17.879 to read without worrying about what a comic book 00:11:17.879 --> 00:11:20.080 was supposed to be. He had nothing to lose. Exactly. 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:22.919 Nothing to lose by experimenting. And that pivot, 00:11:23.000 --> 00:11:24.899 it wasn't just about trying something new. It 00:11:24.899 --> 00:11:27.419 was about shifting the entire philosophical framework 00:11:27.419 --> 00:11:30.899 of the superhero. He took that advice and introduced 00:11:30.899 --> 00:11:33.929 what he famously called flawed humanity. into 00:11:33.929 --> 00:11:36.570 his characters this fundamentally moved away 00:11:36.570 --> 00:11:39.629 from the traditional perfect ideal archetypes 00:11:39.629 --> 00:11:42.070 that dc was still largely promoting that's the 00:11:42.070 --> 00:11:44.629 key distinction right there DC's heroes were 00:11:44.629 --> 00:11:47.429 gods among men, perfectly adjusted. They never 00:11:47.429 --> 00:11:49.830 worried about rent. They had this unquestioning 00:11:49.830 --> 00:11:52.889 moral certainty. But Marvel's heroes were people 00:11:52.889 --> 00:11:55.649 first. Yes. The characters they created in the 00:11:55.649 --> 00:11:57.669 60s, they weren't just powerful. They had bad 00:11:57.669 --> 00:12:00.210 tempers like The Thing, crippling vanity like 00:12:00.210 --> 00:12:03.110 Iron Man, real financial woes like Spider -Man, 00:12:03.230 --> 00:12:07.149 and profound inner angst like the Hulk. Comics 00:12:07.149 --> 00:12:10.429 historian Peter Sanderson famously compared the 00:12:10.429 --> 00:12:14.480 resulting Marvel output. to the French New Wave 00:12:14.480 --> 00:12:16.460 in filmmaking. Because it was revolutionary. 00:12:16.659 --> 00:12:19.120 It used pioneering storytelling methods focused 00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:21.879 on deep characterization, and it attracted this 00:12:21.879 --> 00:12:24.980 massive new demographic of older readers, college 00:12:24.980 --> 00:12:28.279 students and teens by addressing serious contemporary 00:12:28.279 --> 00:12:31.379 themes. It was a genius move. Relatability made 00:12:31.379 --> 00:12:33.639 the characters immortal. You didn't just admire 00:12:33.639 --> 00:12:35.980 a Marvel hero. You empathized with them. Right. 00:12:36.100 --> 00:12:37.960 They got bored. They argued amongst themselves 00:12:37.960 --> 00:12:39.639 constantly. I mean, look at the Fantastic Four. 00:12:39.740 --> 00:12:41.320 And sometimes they even got physically sick. 00:12:41.480 --> 00:12:43.480 They were subject to the same mundane pressures 00:12:43.480 --> 00:12:45.519 as their readers. And the first result of this 00:12:45.519 --> 00:12:49.539 shift was the Fantastic Four in 1961, co -created 00:12:49.539 --> 00:12:52.669 with Jack Kirby. The immediate explosive success 00:12:52.669 --> 00:12:54.789 of that title confirmed the market wanted this 00:12:54.789 --> 00:12:57.110 complexity and it launched an unbelievable creative 00:12:57.110 --> 00:12:59.870 cascade. The creative partnerships of this era 00:12:59.870 --> 00:13:02.529 are, of course, the stuff of legend. But they're 00:13:02.529 --> 00:13:04.690 also the source of so much historical tension. 00:13:05.149 --> 00:13:08.789 With Jack Kirby, Lee co -created the Hulk, Thor, 00:13:09.149 --> 00:13:12.570 Iron Man, the X -Men, the Avengers. While also 00:13:12.570 --> 00:13:15.409 successfully modernizing and reviving Golden 00:13:15.409 --> 00:13:17.690 Age characters like Captain America and the Sub 00:13:17.690 --> 00:13:20.909 -Mariner. A prolific run. But the sources are 00:13:20.909 --> 00:13:23.090 clear that despite this, there was significant 00:13:23.090 --> 00:13:25.789 contention later on, particularly over the creation 00:13:25.789 --> 00:13:28.610 credit for the Fantastic Four. Why was that initial 00:13:28.610 --> 00:13:30.970 credit so complicated? Because of the working 00:13:30.970 --> 00:13:33.129 method they developed, which we now call the 00:13:33.129 --> 00:13:35.710 Marvel method, it fundamentally blurred the lines 00:13:35.710 --> 00:13:38.490 of creation. While Lee generated the concept, 00:13:38.710 --> 00:13:41.149 the title, the character names, Kirby the artist, 00:13:41.370 --> 00:13:44.570 often had immense input on the actual plot structure 00:13:44.570 --> 00:13:47.289 and the visual look. Giving him a powerful claim 00:13:47.289 --> 00:13:49.970 to co -creation. A claim that was never formally 00:13:49.970 --> 00:13:51.950 acknowledged at the time. Then, of course, we 00:13:51.950 --> 00:13:53.970 have the equally crucial partnership with Steve 00:13:53.970 --> 00:13:56.750 Ditko. Which yielded Doctor Strange and, of course, 00:13:56.850 --> 00:13:59.549 Spider -Man. Marvel's undisputed most successful 00:13:59.549 --> 00:14:02.389 character. And Lee's vision for Spider -Man was 00:14:02.389 --> 00:14:05.549 a direct reflection of this new philosophy. He 00:14:05.549 --> 00:14:08.490 chose Ditko for the project over Kirby because 00:14:08.490 --> 00:14:11.649 Kirby's initial sketch of Peter Parker was, well, 00:14:11.830 --> 00:14:14.509 it was too heroic, handsome, and muscular. He 00:14:14.509 --> 00:14:16.710 wanted the opposite of that. He wanted a neurotic, 00:14:16.750 --> 00:14:20.570 awkward, physically unimpressive, even nerdy 00:14:20.570 --> 00:14:23.950 kid. A character that Ditko was uniquely skilled 00:14:23.950 --> 00:14:26.690 at visually realizing. And with Bill Everett. 00:14:26.909 --> 00:14:29.730 They created Daredevil. But the narrative thread 00:14:29.730 --> 00:14:32.309 binding all these figures together, the final 00:14:32.309 --> 00:14:34.730 piece of the revelation, was the commitment to 00:14:34.730 --> 00:14:38.220 a truly thoroughly shared universe. Game changer. 00:14:38.419 --> 00:14:40.639 Before Marvel, if one company published three 00:14:40.639 --> 00:14:42.539 heroes, they might as well exist in separate 00:14:42.539 --> 00:14:45.600 vacuums. Lee insisted that if the Hulk rampaged 00:14:45.600 --> 00:14:47.860 in New York, Spider -Man might hear about it 00:14:47.860 --> 00:14:49.720 and the Fantastic Four would definitely read 00:14:49.720 --> 00:14:52.120 about it. This shared reality made the entire 00:14:52.120 --> 00:14:54.679 world feel tangible and interconnected. And this 00:14:54.679 --> 00:14:56.399 incredible output, we're talking about generating 00:14:56.399 --> 00:14:58.919 multiple successful titles every single month 00:14:58.919 --> 00:15:01.480 under crushing deadlines. It necessitated an 00:15:01.480 --> 00:15:04.019 entirely new way of working. The famous Marvel 00:15:04.019 --> 00:15:06.840 method. Let's break down exactly how it worked 00:15:06.840 --> 00:15:09.279 and why it defined their legacy for both good 00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:12.639 and for ill. It was pure necessity born from 00:15:12.639 --> 00:15:15.120 Lee's massive workload. Instead of writing a 00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:17.840 full panel by panel script, which would have 00:15:17.840 --> 00:15:19.879 been impossible for one man managing so many 00:15:19.879 --> 00:15:23.360 titles, Lee would first brainstorm the core story 00:15:23.360 --> 00:15:26.159 with the artist. Who then became a co -plotter. 00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:29.549 Exactly. And Lee would only write a brief. Two 00:15:29.549 --> 00:15:32.049 to three page synopsis. So the artist didn't 00:15:32.049 --> 00:15:34.549 just receive a script to draw. They received 00:15:34.549 --> 00:15:37.029 a prompt and were expected to construct the narrative 00:15:37.029 --> 00:15:40.269 flow visually. Precisely. The artist, whether 00:15:40.269 --> 00:15:42.870 it was Kirby or Ditko or someone else, was expected 00:15:42.870 --> 00:15:45.529 to act as the true co -plotter. They had to determine 00:15:45.529 --> 00:15:47.409 the panel arrangement, the pacing, the action 00:15:47.409 --> 00:15:49.710 sequences. The whole narrative structure needed 00:15:49.710 --> 00:15:51.750 to fill the page count. They were penciling the 00:15:51.750 --> 00:15:54.070 visual first draft of the story. And only after 00:15:54.070 --> 00:15:56.230 the artist turned in those penciled pages did 00:15:56.230 --> 00:15:59.100 Lee step back in. Correct. Lee would then fill 00:15:59.100 --> 00:16:01.779 in all the dialogue, the word balloons, the captions, 00:16:01.960 --> 00:16:04.340 and supervise the final finishing steps like 00:16:04.340 --> 00:16:06.639 lettering and coloring. In essence, the artists 00:16:06.639 --> 00:16:08.940 were determining the beats of the story. And 00:16:08.940 --> 00:16:12.259 Lee was providing the voice, the bombast, and 00:16:12.259 --> 00:16:14.679 the witty banter that defined the Marvel brand. 00:16:14.980 --> 00:16:17.259 But that leads to the big question, right? If 00:16:17.259 --> 00:16:20.360 the artist was the co -plotter, visually determining 00:16:20.360 --> 00:16:23.700 where the story went, why was Lee credited as 00:16:23.700 --> 00:16:26.879 the sole writer? That's the vulnerability. The 00:16:26.879 --> 00:16:28.799 fact that the artists were performing such a 00:16:28.799 --> 00:16:31.240 high level of creative work, that's what eventually 00:16:31.240 --> 00:16:33.720 led to the deep, longstanding tension between 00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:36.419 him and figures like Kirby and Ditko. Absolutely. 00:16:36.600 --> 00:16:38.639 The tension was inherent in the method itself. 00:16:39.690 --> 00:16:41.909 For Lee, he was the primary writer because he 00:16:41.909 --> 00:16:43.970 created the original concept, the core characters, 00:16:44.129 --> 00:16:46.450 and ultimately provided every single line of 00:16:46.450 --> 00:16:48.590 dialogue the reader consumed. But for the artists? 00:16:48.950 --> 00:16:50.750 For the artists, they felt they were creating 00:16:50.750 --> 00:16:53.230 80 % of the narrative, structurally, visually, 00:16:53.490 --> 00:16:55.769 rhythmically. They felt they were writers who 00:16:55.769 --> 00:16:58.129 just happened to use pictures. It was a structural 00:16:58.129 --> 00:17:00.710 conflict over ownership and credit that overshadowed 00:17:00.710 --> 00:17:03.190 much of Lee's later life because the work -for 00:17:03.190 --> 00:17:05.630 -hire contracts of the era just ignored the artist's 00:17:05.630 --> 00:17:08.390 immense contribution to the plot. It's a fascinating 00:17:08.390 --> 00:17:11.309 and complicated dynamic, but beyond the internal 00:17:11.309 --> 00:17:15.269 process, Lee's recognizable dialogue style was 00:17:15.269 --> 00:17:18.329 a massive selling point. It wasn't simple, it 00:17:18.329 --> 00:17:20.990 was often bombastic and surprisingly verbose. 00:17:21.390 --> 00:17:24.390 Oh yeah, his dialogue was full of flair, sophistication, 00:17:24.390 --> 00:17:26.789 and a surprisingly advanced vocabulary for a 00:17:26.789 --> 00:17:29.289 supposed children's medium. He had a great quote 00:17:29.289 --> 00:17:32.289 about that. He did. He famously defended the 00:17:32.289 --> 00:17:34.809 practice, playfully noting that forcing a kid 00:17:34.809 --> 00:17:37.250 to stop and go to a dictionary is not the worst 00:17:37.250 --> 00:17:39.509 thing that could happen. He wanted the comics 00:17:39.509 --> 00:17:42.609 to elevate the reader, not pander to them. And 00:17:42.609 --> 00:17:44.970 the revolution extended directly to the readership. 00:17:45.240 --> 00:17:48.079 Lee was a master of building fan culture and 00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:50.339 loyalty, creating a connection that no other 00:17:50.339 --> 00:17:53.119 publisher could match. He was the first to standardize 00:17:53.119 --> 00:17:55.299 and normalize the practice of introducing clear 00:17:55.299 --> 00:17:57.839 credit panels on the splash page of every story. 00:17:58.079 --> 00:18:00.400 He didn't just name the writer and penciler. 00:18:00.440 --> 00:18:03.299 He included the inker and the letterer. Which 00:18:03.299 --> 00:18:04.880 gave a level of transparency and recognition 00:18:04.880 --> 00:18:06.940 that was previously unheard of in the industry. 00:18:07.349 --> 00:18:09.910 He also basically invented the modern editorial 00:18:09.910 --> 00:18:14.130 persona. He wrote the incredibly lively, chatty, 00:18:14.130 --> 00:18:16.890 personality -driven bullpen bulletins column 00:18:16.890 --> 00:18:19.910 and managed the letter pages with this friendly, 00:18:20.069 --> 00:18:22.950 informal style. His explicit goal was to make 00:18:22.950 --> 00:18:25.390 fans feel like the creators were friends, not 00:18:25.390 --> 00:18:28.150 these distant, anonymous professionals. And it 00:18:28.150 --> 00:18:29.809 worked. That's why letters started addressing 00:18:29.809 --> 00:18:31.849 them by their first names, like Dear Stan and 00:18:31.849 --> 00:18:34.569 Jack, instead of the highly formal Dear Editor 00:18:34.569 --> 00:18:37.369 that rivals used. It fostered this unprecedented 00:18:37.369 --> 00:18:40.450 and long -lasting sense of community. This cultural 00:18:40.450 --> 00:18:43.009 creation even extended to merchandising and clubs. 00:18:43.329 --> 00:18:45.910 He co -founded the Mary Marvel Marching Society 00:18:45.910 --> 00:18:49.259 Fan Club in 1965. And of course, he created his 00:18:49.259 --> 00:18:51.839 own personal iconic brand with his trademark 00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:54.500 sign off. Excelsior. Excelsior. Which is also 00:18:54.500 --> 00:18:56.599 the New York state motto, tying his personal 00:18:56.599 --> 00:18:58.700 ambition directly back to his New York roots. 00:18:58.859 --> 00:19:02.240 So as the 1960s roared on, the social relevance 00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:04.759 and depth of Marvel's characters increased dramatically. 00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:07.500 And this was primarily driven by the phenomenal 00:19:07.500 --> 00:19:10.579 success of Spider -Man. Right. After Steve Ditko 00:19:10.579 --> 00:19:14.180 left Marvel in 1966, John Romita Sr. took over 00:19:14.180 --> 00:19:16.859 as the primary artist on The Amazing Spider -Man. 00:19:16.960 --> 00:19:19.720 And the book just exploded. The transition was 00:19:19.720 --> 00:19:22.680 seamless. The book quickly surpassed Fantastic 00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:25.579 Four to become the company's absolute top seller. 00:19:25.839 --> 00:19:28.720 And Lee and Romita used this platform not just 00:19:28.720 --> 00:19:30.920 for action, but for a deeper character study. 00:19:31.259 --> 00:19:34.339 They focused heavily on Peter Parker's dual existence. 00:19:34.700 --> 00:19:37.740 His social life, his college life. They used 00:19:37.740 --> 00:19:40.380 Empire State University as this perfect setting 00:19:40.380 --> 00:19:42.799 for topical storytelling. They weren't just telling 00:19:42.799 --> 00:19:44.960 superhero stories anymore. They were actively 00:19:44.960 --> 00:19:47.599 engaging with contemporary cultural currents. 00:19:47.819 --> 00:19:49.519 So what were some of the most challenging issues 00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:52.009 they tackled? Well, they dove right into the 00:19:52.009 --> 00:19:54.549 political and social issues facing their young 00:19:54.549 --> 00:19:57.069 adult readership. They addressed the reality 00:19:57.069 --> 00:19:59.589 of the Vietnam War draft through the storyline 00:19:59.589 --> 00:20:02.470 with Flash Thompson, who volunteers for service. 00:20:02.710 --> 00:20:04.990 Wow. They dealt with political elections and 00:20:04.990 --> 00:20:07.250 social manipulation through the Richard Raleigh 00:20:07.250 --> 00:20:09.750 subplot, and they constantly explored student 00:20:09.750 --> 00:20:12.690 activism and protest culture within the fictionalized 00:20:12.690 --> 00:20:15.329 setting of Empire State University. It proved 00:20:15.329 --> 00:20:18.470 superhero comics could be relevant, serious literature. 00:20:19.759 --> 00:20:22.480 the topical issues of the day, Lee used this 00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:25.180 era to make genuine strides in racial representation. 00:20:26.019 --> 00:20:29.819 In 1966, he and Kirby co -created Black Panther. 00:20:29.960 --> 00:20:32.619 This was monumental. T 'Challa the Black Panther 00:20:32.619 --> 00:20:35.359 was not a sidekick or some token figure. He was 00:20:35.359 --> 00:20:38.240 mainstream comics' first black superhero. introduced 00:20:38.240 --> 00:20:40.960 as a respected, sophisticated, technologically 00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:44.200 advanced African king. Which was a hugely significant 00:20:44.200 --> 00:20:47.000 step away from the historically stereotypical 00:20:47.000 --> 00:20:49.259 or simplistic depictions of black characters 00:20:49.259 --> 00:20:51.339 in American media at the time. A year later, 00:20:51.480 --> 00:20:54.880 in 1967, Lee introduced Robbie Robertson in The 00:20:54.880 --> 00:20:57.680 Amazing Spider -Man. And Robbie was an important, 00:20:57.799 --> 00:21:00.779 more subtle form of representation. How so? He 00:21:00.779 --> 00:21:02.539 was one of the first African -American characters 00:21:02.539 --> 00:21:05.640 in comics to hold a serious, complex, professional 00:21:05.640 --> 00:21:08.599 supporting role. He was J. Jonah Jameson's highly 00:21:08.599 --> 00:21:11.039 respected colleague at the Daily Bugle, frequently 00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:13.279 serving as Peter Parker's mentor and a voice 00:21:13.279 --> 00:21:15.859 of reason. His complexity was a quiet revolution. 00:21:16.279 --> 00:21:19.400 And then in 1969, Lee teamed up with artist Gene 00:21:19.400 --> 00:21:22.619 Colan to create the Falcon. The Falcon, Sam Wilson, 00:21:22.859 --> 00:21:26.079 was the first Black American superhero. This 00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:28.200 brought the concept of Black empowerment and 00:21:28.200 --> 00:21:30.539 heroism closer to the American domestic sphere, 00:21:30.740 --> 00:21:32.779 and he often worked alongside Captain America. 00:21:33.230 --> 00:21:35.650 These moves really demonstrated Marvel's willingness 00:21:35.650 --> 00:21:38.750 to use their platform to reflect and maybe influence 00:21:38.750 --> 00:21:41.589 contemporary social discourse. But the most famous 00:21:41.589 --> 00:21:44.109 confrontation Lee engineered against the established 00:21:44.109 --> 00:21:47.329 norms involved the Comics Code Authority. Ah, 00:21:47.589 --> 00:21:51.089 yes, the CCA. The self -regulatory body from 00:21:51.089 --> 00:21:54.049 the 1950s that policed content with this incredibly 00:21:54.049 --> 00:21:57.829 strict set of rules. This showdown in 1971 fundamentally 00:21:57.829 --> 00:22:00.349 changed the industry. And the challenge wasn't 00:22:00.349 --> 00:22:02.529 even initiated by Lee, which makes the outcome... 00:22:02.509 --> 00:22:05.650 Right. The U .S. Department of Health, Education, 00:22:05.809 --> 00:22:08.089 and Welfare actually approached Lee and requested 00:22:08.089 --> 00:22:11.289 that Marvel create an anti -drug storyline. They 00:22:11.289 --> 00:22:13.289 recognized the reach and influence of Spider 00:22:13.289 --> 00:22:15.490 -Man. So the government asks for it, and Lee 00:22:15.490 --> 00:22:17.670 delivers a three -issue subplot in The Amazing 00:22:17.670 --> 00:22:19.789 Spider -Man about prescription drug addiction 00:22:19.789 --> 00:22:22.670 and its real -world consequences. What was the 00:22:22.670 --> 00:22:25.089 Code Authority's reaction? They outright refused 00:22:25.089 --> 00:22:27.809 to grant its seal of approval because the Comics 00:22:27.809 --> 00:22:29.990 Code strictly forbade the depiction of drugs. 00:22:30.650 --> 00:22:33.150 any drugs. It didn't matter what the context 00:22:33.150 --> 00:22:35.769 was, whether it was positive, negative, instructional, 00:22:36.029 --> 00:22:40.369 cautionary. The CCA was rigid and totally incapable 00:22:40.369 --> 00:22:43.329 of interpreting intent. So Lee found himself 00:22:43.329 --> 00:22:46.269 in this impossible position. A government agency 00:22:46.269 --> 00:22:48.950 wants the story published, but the industry's 00:22:48.950 --> 00:22:52.880 own gatekeeper refuses. And Lee. Confident that 00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:54.740 the credibility lent by the government request 00:22:54.740 --> 00:22:57.599 outweighed the authority of the CCA seal, made 00:22:57.599 --> 00:23:00.660 a truly unprecedented and brave decision. He 00:23:00.660 --> 00:23:02.480 published it anyway. He published the entire 00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:04.980 story arc without the seal. At the time, that 00:23:04.980 --> 00:23:07.339 was a huge commercial risk. Distributors and 00:23:07.339 --> 00:23:09.980 newsstands often refused to carry uncoded comics. 00:23:10.240 --> 00:23:12.319 But the gamble paid off massively, didn't it? 00:23:12.339 --> 00:23:15.099 It did. The comics sold well. Marvel received 00:23:15.099 --> 00:23:17.220 widespread praise for its socially conscious 00:23:17.220 --> 00:23:19.799 efforts. And more importantly, the absurdity 00:23:19.799 --> 00:23:21.970 and rigidity of the CCA's refusal. I mean, they 00:23:21.970 --> 00:23:24.089 were censoring a federally requested anti -drug 00:23:24.089 --> 00:23:26.369 message, came under intense public scrutiny. 00:23:26.529 --> 00:23:29.210 And that indirect pressure forced the Comis code 00:23:29.210 --> 00:23:31.410 authority to loosen its restrictions shortly 00:23:31.410 --> 00:23:34.599 after. It paved the way for more mature, realistic 00:23:34.599 --> 00:23:36.759 storytelling for the entire industry. And Lee 00:23:36.759 --> 00:23:38.980 used this momentum to continue his advocacy, 00:23:39.220 --> 00:23:41.740 not just in the stories, but explicitly in his 00:23:41.740 --> 00:23:44.259 editorial voice. In Stan's Soapbox. Exactly. 00:23:44.640 --> 00:23:47.599 He regularly addressed social issues like racism, 00:23:47.900 --> 00:23:50.759 intolerance, and prejudice directly in his monthly 00:23:50.759 --> 00:23:53.779 column. He genuinely believed that if you had 00:23:53.779 --> 00:23:56.660 a powerful platform like Marvel, you had a responsibility 00:23:56.660 --> 00:23:59.799 to speak out against injustice. This period really 00:23:59.799 --> 00:24:01.779 marks the culmination of his creative leadership. 00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:05.500 In 1972, after a 30 -year tenure, he finally 00:24:05.500 --> 00:24:07.759 stopped writing monthly titles to succeed Martin 00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:10.099 Goodman as publisher. His final regular issues 00:24:10.099 --> 00:24:13.279 were The Amazing Spider -Man No. 110 in July 00:24:13.279 --> 00:24:18.099 72 and Fantastic Four No. 125 in August 72. And 00:24:18.099 --> 00:24:20.079 it's telling that he briefly served as the company 00:24:20.079 --> 00:24:22.460 president and ostensibly higher role, but he 00:24:22.460 --> 00:24:24.740 intentionally stepped down. Why reject the presidency? 00:24:25.059 --> 00:24:27.299 Because he found the role was too focused on 00:24:27.299 --> 00:24:30.400 the financial side, on numbers and finance, and 00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:32.480 it took him too far away from the creative energy 00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:35.380 he thrived on. He preferred the hands -on creative 00:24:35.380 --> 00:24:37.859 publisher position. He always identified as a 00:24:37.859 --> 00:24:40.539 creator first. And even after stepping away from 00:24:40.539 --> 00:24:43.180 the monthly comic grind, he kept writing. In 00:24:43.180 --> 00:24:46.519 1977, he launched the amazing Spider -Man newspaper 00:24:46.519 --> 00:24:49.240 strip. Which became a long -standing fixture 00:24:49.240 --> 00:24:53.099 in papers across the country. And in 1978, he 00:24:53.099 --> 00:24:55.839 re -teamed with Jack Kirby for the Silver Surfer. 00:24:56.410 --> 00:24:59.049 the ultimate cosmic experience. That's considered 00:24:59.049 --> 00:25:01.490 Marvel's first true graphic novel, right? It 00:25:01.490 --> 00:25:04.450 is. Another pioneering move, this time into the 00:25:04.450 --> 00:25:07.410 adult bookshelf publishing space. He also co 00:25:07.410 --> 00:25:10.029 -created Savage She -Hulk with John Busama in 00:25:10.029 --> 00:25:12.549 1980, so his creative hand was still visible 00:25:12.549 --> 00:25:14.710 right before his next big transition. And that 00:25:14.710 --> 00:25:16.910 transition takes us away from the New York bullpen 00:25:16.910 --> 00:25:19.089 and into the entirely different high -stakes 00:25:19.089 --> 00:25:22.450 arena of Hollywood. Right. In 1981, Lee physically 00:25:22.450 --> 00:25:25.410 moved to California with a very specific future 00:25:25.410 --> 00:25:28.410 -forward goal to focus exclusively on developing 00:25:28.410 --> 00:25:31.349 Marvel's vast potential for TV and movie properties. 00:25:31.839 --> 00:25:34.960 This marked his official, if gradual, shift from 00:25:34.960 --> 00:25:37.460 being the chief creative officer to becoming 00:25:37.460 --> 00:25:39.960 the ultimate corporate figurehead and media producer. 00:25:40.180 --> 00:25:42.960 Totally. He was instrumental in developing early 00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:45.880 adaptations and, of course, began his ubiquitous 00:25:45.880 --> 00:25:48.299 presence as an executive producer and the king 00:25:48.299 --> 00:25:50.819 of the cameo in nearly all Marvel media. But 00:25:50.819 --> 00:25:52.799 he still did some comics. He'd make these occasional 00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:55.759 high -profile returns, yeah, notably The Silver 00:25:55.759 --> 00:25:59.099 Surfer. Parable limited series with the legendary 00:25:59.099 --> 00:26:02.880 French artist Mubius. So by the 1990s, the official 00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:05.599 change was complete. He stepped away from regular 00:26:05.599 --> 00:26:08.579 Marvel operational duties, though he was maintained 00:26:08.579 --> 00:26:10.819 as chairman emeritus with a highly lucrative 00:26:10.819 --> 00:26:13.660 $1 million annual salary. And that financial 00:26:13.660 --> 00:26:15.920 stability, it allowed him to explore entrepreneurial 00:26:15.920 --> 00:26:18.380 ventures outside the direct Marvel structure. 00:26:18.619 --> 00:26:21.819 This leads to the highly complex and, well, often 00:26:21.819 --> 00:26:24.480 problematic business phase of his life. Starting 00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:27.640 in 1998 with Stanley Media. Yes, an internet 00:26:27.640 --> 00:26:29.880 -based superhero studio he co -founded with a 00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:31.960 man named Peter Paul. And this was during the 00:26:31.960 --> 00:26:34.200 height of the dot -com boom, so Stanley Media 00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:37.940 grew incredibly rapidly. It went public in 1999, 00:26:38.259 --> 00:26:41.460 valuing Lee's name incredibly high. But the sources 00:26:41.460 --> 00:26:43.880 indicate the collapse was swift and tied to some 00:26:43.880 --> 00:26:46.960 severe illegality. It was catastrophic. By late 00:26:46.960 --> 00:26:49.900 2000, investigators uncovered illegal stock manipulation 00:26:49.900 --> 00:26:52.599 orchestrated by Peter Paul and another corporate 00:26:52.599 --> 00:26:55.299 officer, Stephen Gordon. The company filed for 00:26:55.299 --> 00:26:59.180 Chapter 11 bankruptcy in February 2001. And it's 00:26:59.180 --> 00:27:01.299 crucial to emphasize, as our source material 00:27:01.299 --> 00:27:04.339 does, that Lee himself was never implicated in 00:27:04.339 --> 00:27:06.920 the illegal stock manipulation scheme. He was 00:27:06.920 --> 00:27:08.900 a victim of it, too. Following that collapse, 00:27:09.180 --> 00:27:12.380 he quickly formed his next venture, POW Entertainment. 00:27:12.960 --> 00:27:16.099 Purveyors of Wonder. Formed in 2001 with Gil 00:27:16.099 --> 00:27:18.599 Champion and Arthur Lieberman, specifically focusing 00:27:18.599 --> 00:27:21.599 on developing film, TV, and video game properties. 00:27:21.859 --> 00:27:24.019 VW had a much longer run, but it produced some 00:27:24.019 --> 00:27:26.259 famously unconventional projects. Showcasing 00:27:26.259 --> 00:27:28.319 Lee's willingness to experiment, for sure. This 00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:30.980 included the risque animated superhero series 00:27:30.980 --> 00:27:33.960 Stripperella for Spike TV, and he also hosted 00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:35.819 the reality competition show Who Wants to Be 00:27:35.819 --> 00:27:38.960 a Superhero? Continuing his brand is that accessible, 00:27:39.180 --> 00:27:41.799 friendly mentor. And we can't overlook the fascinating 00:27:41.799 --> 00:27:43.980 moment where he crossed the corporate aisle and 00:27:43.980 --> 00:27:46.660 worked for the competition. DC Comics. In the 00:27:46.660 --> 00:27:49.559 early 2000s, DC published the Just Imagine series, 00:27:49.839 --> 00:27:53.400 where Lee reimagined their iconic heroes, Superman, 00:27:53.759 --> 00:27:56.500 Batman, Wonder Woman, collaborating with top 00:27:56.500 --> 00:27:59.799 -tier artists like Jim Lee and Joe Kubert. It 00:27:59.799 --> 00:28:02.140 just showed that his cultural status transcended 00:28:02.140 --> 00:28:04.839 corporate boundaries. Now we enter the challenging 00:28:04.839 --> 00:28:07.200 era defined by intellectual property disputes 00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:09.920 and a long string of lawsuits, starting with 00:28:09.920 --> 00:28:13.599 the very company he built, Marvel. In 2002, Lee 00:28:13.599 --> 00:28:16.220 sued Marvel. Yes, he did. And let's talk about 00:28:16.220 --> 00:28:18.619 the nuances of that complaint. Lee sued Marvel 00:28:18.619 --> 00:28:20.980 because he claimed they were failing to pay him 00:28:20.980 --> 00:28:23.599 his agreed -upon 10 % share of the profits from 00:28:23.599 --> 00:28:26.480 films featuring his co -created characters. This 00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:28.180 is where we need to be very clear about the legal 00:28:28.180 --> 00:28:30.420 history. He didn't own Spider -Man or the Hulk 00:28:30.420 --> 00:28:32.880 outright, did he? No, he didn't. Like Kirby and 00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:35.220 Ditko, Lee created those characters under the 00:28:35.220 --> 00:28:37.819 traditional work -for -hire model. If you were 00:28:37.819 --> 00:28:40.460 a salaried employee, the characters you created 00:28:40.460 --> 00:28:42.490 were legally owned by the company. company. But 00:28:42.490 --> 00:28:45.359 Lee Unlike many of his former collaborator, had 00:28:45.359 --> 00:28:47.420 managed to secure a separate agreement in the 00:28:47.420 --> 00:28:50.680 1990s that guaranteed him a specific percentage, 00:28:51.059 --> 00:28:54.240 10 percent of future profits from media licensing 00:28:54.240 --> 00:28:56.559 of those characters. So the lawsuit wasn't about 00:28:56.559 --> 00:28:59.220 creation rights. It was about breach of contract 00:28:59.220 --> 00:29:01.799 on profit sharing. Exactly. It was a fight for 00:29:01.799 --> 00:29:03.900 the money generated by the media boom that he 00:29:03.900 --> 00:29:06.759 himself had catalyzed. And that lawsuit was ultimately 00:29:06.759 --> 00:29:10.160 settled in 2005 for an undisclosed but massive 00:29:10.160 --> 00:29:13.349 seven figure amount. It confirmed he was owed 00:29:13.349 --> 00:29:15.769 a significant share of that revenue. The business 00:29:15.769 --> 00:29:18.369 complications continued, though, and they escalated 00:29:18.369 --> 00:29:21.369 dramatically in his final years. POW Entertainment 00:29:21.369 --> 00:29:24.430 was acquired in 2017 by a Chinese company called 00:29:24.430 --> 00:29:26.549 CanSing International. And this happened at a 00:29:26.549 --> 00:29:28.710 time when Li was dealing with his wife's terminal 00:29:28.710 --> 00:29:31.430 illness and his own failing eyesight. The situation 00:29:31.430 --> 00:29:35.089 quickly deteriorated. In May 2018, Lee filed 00:29:35.089 --> 00:29:39.009 a staggering $1 billion lawsuit against POW Entertainment. 00:29:39.509 --> 00:29:41.789 A billion dollars. What was the specific nature 00:29:41.789 --> 00:29:44.130 of the alleged deception? Lee alleged he was 00:29:44.130 --> 00:29:47.269 systematically misled. He claimed he was convinced 00:29:47.269 --> 00:29:49.569 to sign a document that he believed was a non 00:29:49.569 --> 00:29:51.990 -exclusive license for his name, image, and IP 00:29:51.990 --> 00:29:54.890 to be used by Camzing. It turned out to be an 00:29:54.890 --> 00:29:57.329 exclusive license. Which he asserted he would 00:29:57.329 --> 00:29:59.849 never have knowingly signed. Especially while 00:29:59.849 --> 00:30:02.390 he was so emotionally vulnerable after his wife's 00:30:02.390 --> 00:30:05.470 passing, he also contended that POW had illegally 00:30:05.470 --> 00:30:08.130 taken control of his social media accounts and 00:30:08.130 --> 00:30:11.230 was impersonating him online. That is a staggering 00:30:11.230 --> 00:30:13.369 claim of manipulation. What was the outcome of 00:30:13.369 --> 00:30:16.089 that billion -dollar lawsuit? In a complex turn, 00:30:16.349 --> 00:30:18.349 the suit was dramatically dropped just two months 00:30:18.349 --> 00:30:21.269 later, in July 2018, before it could advance 00:30:21.269 --> 00:30:23.990 through the courts. The reasons for the withdrawal 00:30:23.990 --> 00:30:26.769 remain ambiguous, but were widely tied to the 00:30:26.769 --> 00:30:28.609 various power struggles that were surrounding 00:30:28.609 --> 00:30:30.990 Lee at the time. Unfortunately, the legal battles 00:30:30.990 --> 00:30:33.470 continued even after his death. His daughter, 00:30:33.630 --> 00:30:36.710 J .C. Lee, entered the fray. She filed a new 00:30:36.710 --> 00:30:39.849 lawsuit in 2019 trying to regain IT rights from 00:30:39.849 --> 00:30:42.710 the earlier Stan Lee Entertainment period, claiming 00:30:42.710 --> 00:30:45.250 that partners had misled her father about various 00:30:45.250 --> 00:30:47.490 deals. And that lawsuit did not go well for her. 00:30:47.670 --> 00:30:50.440 Not at all. In 2020, the court dismissed her 00:30:50.440 --> 00:30:53.539 claims, calling the lawsuit frivolous and improper 00:30:53.539 --> 00:30:57.740 and resulting in severe sanctions, $1 .25 million 00:30:57.740 --> 00:31:01.579 against both J .C. Lee and her legal team. This 00:31:01.579 --> 00:31:04.759 entire period, it just reveals a man who had 00:31:04.759 --> 00:31:07.839 always been the energetic, in -control face of 00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:10.859 his company becoming so vulnerable. And that 00:31:10.859 --> 00:31:13.180 vulnerability led to the darkest part of this 00:31:13.180 --> 00:31:16.569 story. serious allegations of elder abuse and 00:31:16.569 --> 00:31:19.029 isolation that emerged after his wife's death. 00:31:19.480 --> 00:31:21.539 The Hollywood Reporter published a detailed investigation 00:31:21.539 --> 00:31:24.000 claiming Lee, whose wealth was estimated around 00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:27.019 $50 million, was a victim of financial and emotional 00:31:27.019 --> 00:31:29.660 elder abuse. It's a tragic irony that the creator 00:31:29.660 --> 00:31:31.980 of so many heroes was left so unprotected in 00:31:31.980 --> 00:31:34.460 his final years. Kia Morgan, who had become Lee's 00:31:34.460 --> 00:31:36.759 business manager and was a known memorabilia 00:31:36.759 --> 00:31:39.000 collector, was the central figure in these allegations. 00:31:39.460 --> 00:31:41.700 Morgan was accused of isolating Lee from long 00:31:41.700 --> 00:31:43.980 -trusted friends, professional associates, even 00:31:43.980 --> 00:31:46.460 his family, in an effort to gain increasing control 00:31:46.460 --> 00:31:49.140 over his substantial wealth. A temporary restraining 00:31:49.140 --> 00:31:51.660 order was issued against Morgan in August 2018, 00:31:52.019 --> 00:31:54.480 and allegations eventually led to criminal charges. 00:31:54.759 --> 00:31:58.640 Right. In May 2019, Morgan was charged with multiple 00:31:58.640 --> 00:32:01.339 counts of elder abuse, including grand theft, 00:32:01.599 --> 00:32:04.539 embezzlement and forgery, underlining the severity 00:32:04.539 --> 00:32:07.400 of the alleged financial exploitation. And Morgan 00:32:07.400 --> 00:32:09.599 wasn't the only manager Lee sued, was he? No. 00:32:09.779 --> 00:32:12.259 He also filed a fraud lawsuit against his former 00:32:12.259 --> 00:32:15.279 manager, Gerardo Olivares, with similarly serious 00:32:15.279 --> 00:32:18.549 allegations, claiming Alarez convinced Lee to 00:32:18.549 --> 00:32:21.109 allow transfers of millions of dollars and manipulated 00:32:21.109 --> 00:32:24.210 him into changing his will. It paints this deeply 00:32:24.210 --> 00:32:26.349 unsettling picture. We also have to mention the 00:32:26.349 --> 00:32:28.910 sexual harassment allegations that surfaced in 00:32:28.910 --> 00:32:31.720 early 2018. A small number of nurses working 00:32:31.720 --> 00:32:34.119 for Lee came forward with claims of sexual harassment. 00:32:34.359 --> 00:32:37.279 Lee immediately denied the allegations, countering 00:32:37.279 --> 00:32:39.140 that they were fabricated attempts to extort 00:32:39.140 --> 00:32:42.259 money from him. It's just a complex, messy, and 00:32:42.259 --> 00:32:44.819 profoundly sad final chapter for such a beloved 00:32:44.819 --> 00:32:47.279 public figure. And despite the profound business 00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:49.859 and personal turmoil of his later years, Stan 00:32:49.859 --> 00:32:52.480 Lee's monumental cultural legacy remains utterly 00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:54.579 unquestionable. Oh, absolutely. On a personal 00:32:54.579 --> 00:32:56.960 note, he was married to Joan Bukock for 70 years, 00:32:57.079 --> 00:33:01.039 from 1947 until her death in 2000. They had two 00:33:01.039 --> 00:33:05.259 daughters, Joan Celia J .C., born in 1950, and 00:33:05.259 --> 00:33:07.660 their second daughter, Jan Lee, who sadly died 00:33:07.660 --> 00:33:11.119 just three days after her birth in 1953. And 00:33:11.119 --> 00:33:13.759 that loss undoubtedly contributed to the emotional 00:33:13.759 --> 00:33:16.359 weight of his life. Lee's lifelong commitment 00:33:16.359 --> 00:33:18.880 to education and the arts found a major outlet 00:33:18.880 --> 00:33:21.799 in his philanthropy. In 2010, he founded the 00:33:21.799 --> 00:33:24.529 Stan Lee Foundation. The foundation was specifically 00:33:24.529 --> 00:33:27.250 focused on literacy, education, and the arts, 00:33:27.369 --> 00:33:30.289 and it actively promoted diversity across creative 00:33:30.289 --> 00:33:33.609 fields. He also had a deep appreciation for history. 00:33:33.809 --> 00:33:36.589 He regularly donated massive amounts of personal 00:33:36.589 --> 00:33:39.190 papers, photographs, and effects to the American 00:33:39.190 --> 00:33:41.049 Heritage Center at the University of Wyoming. 00:33:41.309 --> 00:33:43.509 Providing invaluable primary source material 00:33:43.509 --> 00:33:46.430 for future historians. Exactly. And of course, 00:33:46.430 --> 00:33:48.190 the role he is best known for by the current 00:33:48.190 --> 00:33:50.650 generation is the king of the cameo. Every single 00:33:50.650 --> 00:33:52.859 Marvel film. Every one. These cameos... were 00:33:52.859 --> 00:33:54.799 a vital link between the history of the comics 00:33:54.799 --> 00:33:57.220 and the new media. He received an executive producer 00:33:57.220 --> 00:33:59.359 credit and the appearances became this essential, 00:33:59.619 --> 00:34:02.200 highly anticipated, and often self -aware nod 00:34:02.200 --> 00:34:05.160 to his creations, a personal signature. What's 00:34:05.160 --> 00:34:07.700 truly remarkable is that his status as the universal 00:34:07.700 --> 00:34:10.699 elder statesman of comics transcended traditional 00:34:10.699 --> 00:34:13.889 corporate battle lines. He literally appeared 00:34:13.889 --> 00:34:17.030 in the rival universe. He did. Lee was so beloved 00:34:17.030 --> 00:34:19.429 and respected that he was granted a cameo as 00:34:19.429 --> 00:34:21.849 himself in the DC Comics film Teen Titans Go. 00:34:22.090 --> 00:34:25.230 It just illustrates his status as a universally 00:34:25.230 --> 00:34:27.809 acknowledged cultural icon. His final emotional 00:34:27.809 --> 00:34:31.550 cameo was in Avengers. Endgame. But that final 00:34:31.550 --> 00:34:33.750 appearance also marked an ending for that tradition. 00:34:33.989 --> 00:34:36.670 Yeah. Following his passing, Marvel Studios enacted 00:34:36.670 --> 00:34:40.289 a formal policy out of deep respect that forbids 00:34:40.289 --> 00:34:42.889 the use of archive footage for any future cameos. 00:34:43.010 --> 00:34:45.329 They wanted his final appearance in Endgame to 00:34:45.329 --> 00:34:48.250 serve as his true definitive curtain call. In 00:34:48.250 --> 00:34:50.710 terms of formal recognition, the accolades he 00:34:50.710 --> 00:34:53.309 received are extensive. He was inducted into 00:34:53.309 --> 00:34:56.530 the Will Eisner Award Hall of Fame in 1994. and 00:34:56.530 --> 00:34:58.829 notably the Jack Kirby Hall of Fame in 1995. 00:34:59.269 --> 00:35:01.389 He received the National Medal of Arts in 2008, 00:35:01.650 --> 00:35:03.789 a truly high honor, recognizing the profound 00:35:03.789 --> 00:35:06.150 literary and cultural impact of the medium he 00:35:06.150 --> 00:35:08.929 helped legitimize. And in 2017, he was recognized 00:35:08.929 --> 00:35:11.829 as a Disney legend alongside his sometimes contested 00:35:11.829 --> 00:35:14.250 creative partner, Jack Kirby. That Disney legend 00:35:14.250 --> 00:35:17.409 ceremony included having his hands, feet, and 00:35:17.409 --> 00:35:20.449 signature imprinted in cement at the TCL Chinese 00:35:20.449 --> 00:35:23.369 Theater. permanently enshrining him in Hollywood 00:35:23.369 --> 00:35:25.769 history, right where he had worked as an usher 00:35:25.769 --> 00:35:28.269 all those decades earlier. It's incredible. Furthermore, 00:35:28.530 --> 00:35:31.389 his impact was recognized locally by numerous 00:35:31.389 --> 00:35:34.570 cities that declared Stan Lee Day. Los Angeles, 00:35:34.809 --> 00:35:38.309 Boston. New York City. And in a beautiful tribute 00:35:38.309 --> 00:35:41.210 connecting his roots back to his success, a specific 00:35:41.210 --> 00:35:43.630 section of University Avenue in the Bronx, right 00:35:43.630 --> 00:35:45.170 where his family settled during the Depression, 00:35:45.429 --> 00:35:49.150 was officially named Stanley Way in 2019. Stanley 00:35:49.150 --> 00:35:52.489 died on November 12, 2018, at the age of 95 in 00:35:52.489 --> 00:35:55.210 Los Angeles. The official underlying causes of 00:35:55.210 --> 00:35:57.650 death included respiratory failure and congestive 00:35:57.650 --> 00:36:00.130 heart failure. Roy Thomas, his successor as editor 00:36:00.130 --> 00:36:02.510 in chief at Marvel, visited him just two days 00:36:02.510 --> 00:36:05.070 before he passed. And Thomas recounted that Lee 00:36:05.070 --> 00:36:07.849 was still incredibly enthusiastic, already discussing 00:36:07.849 --> 00:36:10.349 potential future cameos. Just demonstrating his 00:36:10.349 --> 00:36:12.590 lifelong excitement and dedication to the creative 00:36:12.590 --> 00:36:15.510 process right to the end. And his very last known 00:36:15.510 --> 00:36:18.289 words to Roy Thomas provide a touching and familiar 00:36:18.289 --> 00:36:20.909 sign -off to his long, complex history with the 00:36:20.909 --> 00:36:23.510 company. What were they? Lee's final recorded 00:36:23.510 --> 00:36:27.119 words to Thomas were, God bless, take care of 00:36:27.119 --> 00:36:29.860 my boy Roy, referring to Thomas' long -standing 00:36:29.860 --> 00:36:33.000 nickname, Roy the Boy Thomas. It was a final, 00:36:33.019 --> 00:36:35.440 familiar salutation, linking him back to his 00:36:35.440 --> 00:36:39.079 familiar persona, Stan the Man Lee, and the familial 00:36:39.079 --> 00:36:41.460 atmosphere he fostered at the Marvel bullpen. 00:36:41.659 --> 00:36:44.159 So looking back at this tremendous, decades -long 00:36:44.159 --> 00:36:47.210 journey. We trace the path of a writer who transformed 00:36:47.210 --> 00:36:50.010 global culture, not by meticulously sticking 00:36:50.010 --> 00:36:52.929 to his initial plan, but by embracing the creative 00:36:52.929 --> 00:36:55.309 freedom that came from abandoning his self -imposed 00:36:55.309 --> 00:36:58.269 limitations. Exactly. He began life as Stanley 00:36:58.269 --> 00:37:00.530 Martin Lieber, this ambitious young man who believed 00:37:00.530 --> 00:37:02.949 pulp writing was inherently beneath him, dreaming 00:37:02.949 --> 00:37:05.449 of that lofty conventional great American novel. 00:37:05.650 --> 00:37:08.170 And the irony is profound and truly defines his 00:37:08.170 --> 00:37:12.039 life. By adopting the pen name Stan Lee, to shield 00:37:12.039 --> 00:37:15.000 his serious identity, and by giving himself explicit 00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:17.400 permission to just have fun with the despised 00:37:17.400 --> 00:37:20.119 medium of comics, a suggestion sparked by his 00:37:20.119 --> 00:37:23.199 wife, he created a monumental, multifaceted, 00:37:23.219 --> 00:37:26.159 and enduring legacy far larger than any single 00:37:26.159 --> 00:37:28.599 novel could ever achieve. He innovated storytelling 00:37:28.599 --> 00:37:30.739 with the Marvel method, which simultaneously 00:37:30.739 --> 00:37:33.960 enabled massive output and created deep creative 00:37:33.960 --> 00:37:37.440 tensions. He humanized superheroes, built an 00:37:37.440 --> 00:37:40.920 unparalleled personal fan culture, and directly... 00:37:40.940 --> 00:37:43.320 challenged industry censorship to bring maturity 00:37:43.320 --> 00:37:45.360 to the medium. And his characters now form the 00:37:45.360 --> 00:37:48.099 basis of our modern cinematic mythology. So as 00:37:48.099 --> 00:37:50.320 we wrap up this deep dive, we have to ask you, 00:37:50.380 --> 00:37:53.159 the listener, a final provocative thought. Reflect 00:37:53.159 --> 00:37:55.820 on the massive discrepancy between Stanley Lieber's 00:37:55.820 --> 00:37:58.059 youthful, conventional goal of writing the high 00:37:58.059 --> 00:38:00.679 -minded great American novel and the actual world 00:38:00.679 --> 00:38:03.099 -changing legacy he achieved by embracing a medium 00:38:03.099 --> 00:38:05.460 he initially considered beneath him. So the question 00:38:05.460 --> 00:38:09.150 is this. Was his world -changing success driven 00:38:09.150 --> 00:38:11.190 by the very fact that he gave himself permission 00:38:11.190 --> 00:38:14.250 to be commercially successful and culturally 00:38:14.250 --> 00:38:17.030 profound only after he gave up on his original 00:38:17.030 --> 00:38:19.809 loftiest and perhaps most creatively restrictive 00:38:19.809 --> 00:38:22.369 literary goal. It's something to think about. 00:38:22.570 --> 00:38:24.670 Truly something to think about and perhaps apply 00:38:24.670 --> 00:38:26.750 to your own ambitions. Thank you for joining 00:38:26.750 --> 00:38:28.889 us for the deep dive on the incredible complex 00:38:28.889 --> 00:38:32.090 life of Stan Lee. Excelsior. We'll catch you 00:38:32.090 --> 00:38:32.530 next time.