WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.220 Welcome to The Deep Dive, where we take the source 00:00:02.220 --> 00:00:04.400 material you've shared with us and cut right 00:00:04.400 --> 00:00:06.820 to the insights, shortcuts, and surprising facts 00:00:06.820 --> 00:00:09.759 you need to truly be well -informed. And today 00:00:09.759 --> 00:00:13.519 we are strapping in for a long, strange trip. 00:00:13.720 --> 00:00:16.219 Literally. We are diving deep into the world 00:00:16.219 --> 00:00:19.280 of the Grateful Dead, a band that, I mean, they 00:00:19.280 --> 00:00:21.760 really transcended rock music to become this... 00:00:22.170 --> 00:00:24.969 This genuine cultural and business phenomenon. 00:00:25.350 --> 00:00:27.910 Oh, completely. You really can't understand modern 00:00:27.910 --> 00:00:30.949 music without them because they operated in direct 00:00:30.949 --> 00:00:33.130 contradiction to how the industry worked. I mean, 00:00:33.149 --> 00:00:35.250 just look at the raw data. You get a 30 -year 00:00:35.250 --> 00:00:39.200 career from 65 to 95. In all that time, they 00:00:39.200 --> 00:00:42.399 had exactly one top 40 single. Touch of Gray. 00:00:42.619 --> 00:00:44.539 Touch of Gray. And that didn't even happen until 00:00:44.539 --> 00:00:47.920 1987. Which is insane. It is. But despite that, 00:00:48.039 --> 00:00:51.039 they were, for decades, one of the highest grossing 00:00:51.039 --> 00:00:53.700 touring acts in American history. It's the ultimate 00:00:53.700 --> 00:00:56.439 paradox. A band that was just commercially massive 00:00:56.439 --> 00:00:58.539 without ever really having commercial hits. They 00:00:58.539 --> 00:01:00.359 didn't follow the playbook at all. Not even a 00:01:00.359 --> 00:01:02.560 little. The empire they built wasn't on record 00:01:02.560 --> 00:01:05.560 sales. It was on touring. It was on improvisation 00:01:05.560 --> 00:01:08.579 and on this, this. Incredible community. And 00:01:08.579 --> 00:01:11.180 that brand is still so potent. Oh, absolutely. 00:01:11.420 --> 00:01:14.159 I mean, as recently as 2024, they set a record 00:01:14.159 --> 00:01:17.140 for the most top 40 albums on the Billboard 200 00:01:17.140 --> 00:01:19.620 chart. And that's not with new music. That's 00:01:19.620 --> 00:01:22.599 with old concert recordings. Decades old recordings. 00:01:22.659 --> 00:01:24.939 It's unbelievable. Okay, so that confirms the 00:01:24.939 --> 00:01:27.599 mission for today. Our deep dive is all about 00:01:27.599 --> 00:01:30.859 unpacking the sources, figuring out their eclectic 00:01:30.859 --> 00:01:33.939 style, their whole philosophy on improvisation, 00:01:34.140 --> 00:01:37.700 the complicated life of Jerry Garcia. And the 00:01:37.700 --> 00:01:39.519 Deadheads. You can't talk about the dead without 00:01:39.519 --> 00:01:41.060 talking about the Deadheads. The fiercely loyal 00:01:41.060 --> 00:01:42.980 community they build. I mean, they're truly the 00:01:42.980 --> 00:01:45.700 pioneering godfathers of the jam band world. 00:01:45.959 --> 00:01:48.459 And we had to examine how that community and 00:01:48.459 --> 00:01:51.379 that musical structure made that contradiction 00:01:51.379 --> 00:01:54.879 possible. How you get so successful by... Sort 00:01:54.879 --> 00:01:57.500 of refusing to be commercial. So let's do it. 00:01:57.519 --> 00:02:00.060 Let's start at the very beginning. Mid -60s, 00:02:00.060 --> 00:02:02.560 Palo Alto, back before they even plugged in. 00:02:02.680 --> 00:02:05.739 The prehistory of the Grateful Dead is so fascinating 00:02:05.739 --> 00:02:08.500 because it doesn't start with rock and roll at 00:02:08.500 --> 00:02:11.560 all. Not at all. It starts with old -timey American 00:02:11.560 --> 00:02:14.400 folk music. The first version of the band was 00:02:14.400 --> 00:02:17.120 called Mother McCree's Uptown Jug Champions. 00:02:17.500 --> 00:02:21.319 A jug band with Jerry Garcia and Ron Pigpen McKernan. 00:02:21.400 --> 00:02:23.680 Exactly. And that sound tells you everything 00:02:23.680 --> 00:02:26.439 because Garcia and Bob Weir, they weren't rock 00:02:26.439 --> 00:02:28.900 and rollers. They were deep in the American folk 00:02:28.900 --> 00:02:32.240 music revival of the late 50s and early 60s. 00:02:32.240 --> 00:02:34.560 Right. And Garcia was already a master musician 00:02:34.560 --> 00:02:36.740 at this point. A master banjo player specifically. 00:02:37.259 --> 00:02:40.740 He played Scruggs style, that complex three finger 00:02:40.740 --> 00:02:43.300 picking. And that is absolutely crucial for understanding 00:02:43.300 --> 00:02:45.599 how he later played guitar. Okay, so they're 00:02:45.599 --> 00:02:48.120 playing acoustic folk, bluegrass, blues. What's 00:02:48.120 --> 00:02:49.900 the turning point? Well, the whole culture was 00:02:49.900 --> 00:02:51.780 shifting, you know, with the Beatles and Dylan 00:02:51.780 --> 00:02:54.159 going electric. But for them, the sources say 00:02:54.159 --> 00:02:56.659 the real catalyst was seeing a specific band. 00:02:56.960 --> 00:02:59.419 The Love and Spoonful. The Love and Spoonful. 00:02:59.580 --> 00:03:02.539 They saw them mix that jug band sound with electric 00:03:02.539 --> 00:03:04.840 instruments and a rock feel, and that was it. 00:03:04.919 --> 00:03:06.780 That's when they decided to go electric and get 00:03:06.780 --> 00:03:09.909 a, quote, dirtier sound. So they plug in. And 00:03:09.909 --> 00:03:11.750 for a short time, they're called the Warlocks. 00:03:12.169 --> 00:03:14.949 Their very first show as the Warlocks was at 00:03:14.949 --> 00:03:18.789 a Magoo's Pizza Parlor in Menlo Park, May 5th, 00:03:18.789 --> 00:03:23.650 1965. And that's the core lineup. Garcia, Pigpen, 00:03:23.889 --> 00:03:27.500 Phil Lesch. Weir, and Bill Creighton. But they 00:03:27.500 --> 00:03:29.680 had to ditch that name almost right away. Yeah, 00:03:29.719 --> 00:03:31.319 and this is one of those great little historical 00:03:31.319 --> 00:03:33.800 quirks. They found out another band called the 00:03:33.800 --> 00:03:35.800 Warlocks had already put out a record. And the 00:03:35.800 --> 00:03:38.099 sources say the Velvet Underground also had to 00:03:38.099 --> 00:03:40.180 change their name from the Warlocks around that 00:03:40.180 --> 00:03:43.139 same time. It suggests it was like the go -to 00:03:43.139 --> 00:03:46.379 generic name for any garage rock band in 1965. 00:03:47.319 --> 00:03:49.939 So the warlocks is out. They need a permanent 00:03:49.939 --> 00:03:53.419 name. And this brings us to the legendary origin 00:03:53.419 --> 00:03:55.659 story. It's a story that just perfectly captures 00:03:55.659 --> 00:03:58.620 the era. It's got dictionaries, folklore, psychedelics. 00:03:58.639 --> 00:04:00.439 And even the sources can't quite agree on the 00:04:00.439 --> 00:04:04.319 details. Right. Phil Lesh says Garcia just picked 00:04:04.319 --> 00:04:06.460 up a Britannica world language dictionary and 00:04:06.460 --> 00:04:09.340 found it. But Alan Trist, their publisher, says 00:04:09.340 --> 00:04:11.759 no, he found it in a Funk and Wagnalls folklore 00:04:11.759 --> 00:04:13.680 dictionary while they were playing a word game. 00:04:14.139 --> 00:04:16.800 And we know, according to one biographer, that 00:04:16.800 --> 00:04:20.180 they were smoking DMT at the time. Which sounds 00:04:20.180 --> 00:04:22.980 about right for the period. Yeah. But what's 00:04:22.980 --> 00:04:24.939 consistent is the definition they landed on. 00:04:25.019 --> 00:04:27.060 And this is so important. The term grateful dead 00:04:27.060 --> 00:04:31.379 refers to the soul of a dead person or his angel 00:04:31.379 --> 00:04:34.279 showing gratitude to someone who, as an act of 00:04:34.279 --> 00:04:37.319 charity, arranged their burial. It's a motif 00:04:37.319 --> 00:04:40.060 from folktales all over the world. So it immediately 00:04:40.060 --> 00:04:42.139 grounds them in something ancient and spiritual. 00:04:42.300 --> 00:04:45.040 You've got gratitude, charity, death, rebirth. 00:04:45.420 --> 00:04:47.879 It's the bedrock for the whole deadhead culture. 00:04:48.100 --> 00:04:50.699 And that mythological vibe instantly fused with 00:04:50.699 --> 00:04:52.899 the most intense part of the 60s counterculture, 00:04:53.240 --> 00:04:56.060 Ken Kesey's acid tests. The acid tests were the 00:04:56.060 --> 00:04:58.459 philosophical forge for the band. Absolutely. 00:04:59.139 --> 00:05:02.360 Their first show as the Grateful Dead was at 00:05:02.360 --> 00:05:07.680 one of Kesey's parties, December 4th, 1965. Participating 00:05:07.680 --> 00:05:09.579 in those events was central to their development. 00:05:09.800 --> 00:05:13.680 The goal was to foster intra -band musical telepathy. 00:05:13.959 --> 00:05:15.680 I want to stick with that idea of telepathy. 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:18.279 How did the acid tests actually help create that? 00:05:18.399 --> 00:05:20.019 I mean, it sounds like more than just a chaotic 00:05:20.019 --> 00:05:22.420 party. Oh, it's a genuine experiment. The idea 00:05:22.420 --> 00:05:24.379 was to break down the walls between the performers 00:05:24.379 --> 00:05:27.240 and the audience and between the musicians themselves. 00:05:27.579 --> 00:05:29.860 Right. And in that, you know, chemically fueled 00:05:29.860 --> 00:05:32.180 environment, you couldn't rely on normal cues. 00:05:32.339 --> 00:05:34.139 You had to communicate nonverbally. You had to 00:05:34.139 --> 00:05:36.279 listen. You had to trust that if you jumped, 00:05:36.420 --> 00:05:38.540 the collective would catch you. And the sources 00:05:38.540 --> 00:05:40.480 are clear. They weren't the only ones doing this. 00:05:40.540 --> 00:05:42.639 No, this was happening everywhere. Pink Floyd 00:05:42.639 --> 00:05:45.930 in the UK. Jefferson Airplane, The Velvet Underground. 00:05:46.970 --> 00:05:49.329 Everyone was trying to figure out what psychedelic 00:05:49.329 --> 00:05:51.910 music was supposed to sound like structurally. 00:05:52.069 --> 00:05:54.050 And people started documenting it almost immediately. 00:05:54.790 --> 00:05:57.350 Incredibly early. Just a month after their first 00:05:57.350 --> 00:05:59.470 show is The Dead, you have the first of over 00:05:59.470 --> 00:06:04.189 2 ,000 fan recordings. January 8th, 1966, at 00:06:04.189 --> 00:06:07.269 the Fillmore. That... Culture of documentation 00:06:07.269 --> 00:06:09.529 started right at the beginning. But all this 00:06:09.529 --> 00:06:11.850 experimentation costs money. Who was footing 00:06:11.850 --> 00:06:13.850 the bill? It wasn't a record label. No, it was 00:06:13.850 --> 00:06:17.069 Owsley Stanley, the acid king. The infamous chemist. 00:06:17.189 --> 00:06:19.870 He was the LSD supplier for the acid tests. And 00:06:19.870 --> 00:06:22.649 he became the band's financial backer in early 00:06:22.649 --> 00:06:25.629 66. He basically treated them like a living art 00:06:25.629 --> 00:06:28.339 project. Rented them a house. bought them sound 00:06:28.339 --> 00:06:30.699 equipment. Darcia said they lived solely off 00:06:30.699 --> 00:06:33.899 of Owsley's good graces because Stan Lee wanted 00:06:33.899 --> 00:06:36.779 a lab situation to design gear for them. Exactly. 00:06:37.000 --> 00:06:39.579 It wasn't just patronage, it was R &D. Owsley 00:06:39.579 --> 00:06:41.579 was obsessed with perfecting concert sound. He 00:06:41.579 --> 00:06:43.939 was pioneering these massive sound systems that 00:06:43.939 --> 00:06:46.019 could get loud without feedback. So the whole 00:06:46.019 --> 00:06:48.279 operation, the money, the tech, the music, the 00:06:48.279 --> 00:06:50.759 culture, it was all self -contained, funded by 00:06:50.759 --> 00:06:53.370 the scene. For the scene. A perfect symbiotic 00:06:53.370 --> 00:06:55.509 loop. And that set up the core five founders, 00:06:55.670 --> 00:06:58.089 Garcia, Weir, Pigpen, Lesch, and Kreutzmann, 00:06:58.149 --> 00:07:00.350 to create the sound that would define them for 00:07:00.350 --> 00:07:02.970 the next 30 years. Okay, so when you try to define 00:07:02.970 --> 00:07:05.170 the music of the Grateful Dead, you immediately 00:07:05.170 --> 00:07:07.410 run into a problem. You can't. You can't pin 00:07:07.410 --> 00:07:10.189 it down. It's rock, it's blues, it's jazz, it's 00:07:10.189 --> 00:07:13.980 folk, country, bluegrass, reggae. all mixed together 00:07:13.980 --> 00:07:16.819 with this psychedelic experimentation. Right, 00:07:16.879 --> 00:07:18.819 which is why the promoter Bill Graham had that 00:07:18.819 --> 00:07:20.759 famous quote, they're not the best at what they 00:07:20.759 --> 00:07:22.480 do, they're the only ones that do what they do. 00:07:22.519 --> 00:07:25.079 They just carved out their own universe. And 00:07:25.079 --> 00:07:28.100 academics now look at them as essential to the 00:07:28.100 --> 00:07:30.839 development of progressive rock. For sure, because 00:07:30.839 --> 00:07:33.779 they left so much room for these long, exploratory, 00:07:33.800 --> 00:07:36.620 spacey soundscapes in their music. They could 00:07:36.620 --> 00:07:39.569 pivot completely. Completely. The same band that's 00:07:39.569 --> 00:07:42.490 doing this noisy psychedelic in 68 releases Working 00:07:42.490 --> 00:07:45.350 Man's Dead and American Beauty in 1970. Which 00:07:45.350 --> 00:07:48.089 are basically Americana albums, acoustic, rootsy, 00:07:48.089 --> 00:07:50.490 traditional song structures. They pioneer the 00:07:50.490 --> 00:07:53.750 whole genre. It's that dual identity. Psychedelic 00:07:53.750 --> 00:07:56.029 Explorers one minute, Acoustic Storytellers the 00:07:56.029 --> 00:07:58.129 next. And that duality all comes from their central 00:07:58.129 --> 00:08:01.930 philosophy, improvisation. Unlike every other 00:08:01.930 --> 00:08:04.389 touring rock band that rehearses a setlist to 00:08:04.389 --> 00:08:08.379 death. The dead refused. Garcia said, We'd rather 00:08:08.379 --> 00:08:10.519 work off the tops of our heads than off a piece 00:08:10.519 --> 00:08:13.180 of paper. And they stuck with that for 30 years. 00:08:13.740 --> 00:08:16.420 They'd pull from a list of about 100 active songs 00:08:16.420 --> 00:08:19.399 for any given show. They played over 500 different 00:08:19.399 --> 00:08:21.339 songs in their career. It kept them on their 00:08:21.339 --> 00:08:23.579 toes, and it kept the fans coming back night 00:08:23.579 --> 00:08:24.980 after night. You never knew what you were going 00:08:24.980 --> 00:08:28.360 to get. Exactly. But it wasn't just random noodling. 00:08:28.439 --> 00:08:31.920 The sources point to two very distinct... structured 00:08:31.920 --> 00:08:34.080 types of jamming they used. Okay, let's break 00:08:34.080 --> 00:08:36.059 that down. The first one is the instrumental 00:08:36.059 --> 00:08:38.200 break. Right. This is the more traditional rock 00:08:38.200 --> 00:08:40.759 solo. It's usually Jerry Garcia playing over 00:08:40.759 --> 00:08:43.639 a set chord progression. He starts with the melody, 00:08:43.720 --> 00:08:46.019 but then he builds these dynamic phrases that 00:08:46.019 --> 00:08:49.059 always, and this is key, resolve back to the 00:08:49.059 --> 00:08:52.039 chord tones. It's controlled chaos. And the second 00:08:52.039 --> 00:08:55.360 type is the collective or modal improvisation. 00:08:55.419 --> 00:08:57.220 This is the really unique stuff. This is the 00:08:57.220 --> 00:09:00.399 spacey part, the long segues between songs and 00:09:00.399 --> 00:09:02.980 pieces like Dark Star or playing in the band. 00:09:03.220 --> 00:09:05.370 So what's happening there musically? So instead 00:09:05.370 --> 00:09:07.309 of following a complex set of chord changes, 00:09:07.649 --> 00:09:09.929 the band will just hang on one or two chords, 00:09:10.129 --> 00:09:12.070 and they'll modulate between different musical 00:09:12.070 --> 00:09:14.610 modes or scales over that simple progression. 00:09:14.929 --> 00:09:16.769 Okay, for a listener who doesn't have a music 00:09:16.769 --> 00:09:19.009 theory background, how does that sound different 00:09:19.009 --> 00:09:21.330 from a normal guitar solo? That's a great question. 00:09:22.149 --> 00:09:24.350 Think of the normal solo as a high -speed chase. 00:09:24.789 --> 00:09:27.750 It's exciting, but it's on a defined road, the 00:09:27.750 --> 00:09:29.649 chord progression, and there's a clear destination. 00:09:30.169 --> 00:09:33.950 Right. Modal jamming is like painting. The canvas, 00:09:34.169 --> 00:09:37.690 the one or two chords, is static. So the musicians 00:09:37.690 --> 00:09:40.710 can focus completely on color and texture and 00:09:40.710 --> 00:09:42.909 rhythm. It's about the interplay between them. 00:09:42.950 --> 00:09:45.169 It requires that telepathy we were talking about 00:09:45.169 --> 00:09:47.929 because there's no map. And to make that work, 00:09:48.110 --> 00:09:50.230 every single member of the band had to play a 00:09:50.230 --> 00:09:53.269 totally unique, non -traditional role. Starting 00:09:53.269 --> 00:09:56.110 with Jerry Garcia. His guitar style was so fluid 00:09:56.110 --> 00:09:59.669 and spare. He never played a wasted note. And 00:09:59.669 --> 00:10:01.450 a lot of that comes from his banjo background, 00:10:01.570 --> 00:10:04.480 right? Yeah, directly. That Scruggs -style picking 00:10:04.480 --> 00:10:06.840 gave him techniques like syncopation playing 00:10:06.840 --> 00:10:10.279 on the offbeat and these rapid -fire arpeggios 00:10:10.279 --> 00:10:12.840 and chromatic runs. It's a style that's always 00:10:12.840 --> 00:10:15.039 pushing against the beat. And his influences 00:10:15.039 --> 00:10:17.100 were all over the place. Jazz guys like Miles 00:10:17.100 --> 00:10:20.240 Davis and Django Reinhardt. But also blues and 00:10:20.240 --> 00:10:23.299 country. He'd solo using rock and blues scales 00:10:23.299 --> 00:10:26.039 like... the Mixolydian mode, but then he'd weave 00:10:26.039 --> 00:10:29.200 in notes from other scales like Dorian or Petatonic 00:10:29.200 --> 00:10:31.519 scales. And the sources even mention him using 00:10:31.519 --> 00:10:34.159 melodic lines from Indian ragas. Yeah, which 00:10:34.159 --> 00:10:36.000 he probably got from John Coltrane's interest 00:10:36.000 --> 00:10:38.799 in Ravi Shankar. So he's filtering world music 00:10:38.799 --> 00:10:40.820 through a jazz lens and bringing it into rock 00:10:40.820 --> 00:10:43.220 and roll. Yeah. It's incredibly complex. Then 00:10:43.220 --> 00:10:45.259 you have Phil Lesh on bass, who might be the 00:10:45.259 --> 00:10:47.000 most revolutionary player in the whole band. 00:10:47.220 --> 00:10:49.639 He wasn't a rock bassist. He was a classically 00:10:49.639 --> 00:10:52.059 trained trumpeter and music theorist. He thought 00:10:52.059 --> 00:10:54.059 about music completely differently. He plays 00:10:54.059 --> 00:10:55.659 melodically. It's like he's a second lead guitar 00:10:55.659 --> 00:10:58.820 player. Totally. And his signature move, the 00:10:58.820 --> 00:11:01.580 thing that gives the dead their rhythmic bounce, 00:11:01.759 --> 00:11:04.179 is that he would constantly avoid playing the 00:11:04.179 --> 00:11:06.960 root note on the downbeat. Why is that so important? 00:11:07.059 --> 00:11:09.940 What does that do for the sound? It creates this 00:11:09.940 --> 00:11:15.559 floating, ungrounded feeling. If the chord is 00:11:15.559 --> 00:11:19.139 C, a normal bassist hits a C on beat one. Boom. 00:11:19.789 --> 00:11:22.090 Lesh might hit a G or an E or something else 00:11:22.090 --> 00:11:24.690 entirely. It denies you that solid foundation, 00:11:24.870 --> 00:11:26.909 so the music always feels like it's searching. 00:11:27.129 --> 00:11:29.049 And Bob Weir is doing the same thing on rhythm 00:11:29.049 --> 00:11:31.169 guitar. He's not just strumming chords. Not at 00:11:31.169 --> 00:11:34.169 all. He modeled his whole style on the jazz pianist 00:11:34.169 --> 00:11:36.710 McCoy Tyner. Who played with John Coltrane. Right. 00:11:36.769 --> 00:11:39.850 Weir was trying to replicate that dense, complex, 00:11:39.850 --> 00:11:42.490 harmonic interplay on his guitar. He used these 00:11:42.490 --> 00:11:45.250 unique chord inversions way up high on the neck 00:11:45.250 --> 00:11:47.740 where a lead guitar would normally be. So he's 00:11:47.740 --> 00:11:50.100 filling this space with these spiky staccato 00:11:50.100 --> 00:11:53.080 chords. Exactly. He's the harmonic rudder, but 00:11:53.080 --> 00:11:55.519 he's constantly shifting it, pushing the improvisation 00:11:55.519 --> 00:11:57.820 in new directions. He blurred the line between 00:11:57.820 --> 00:12:00.360 rhythm and lead completely. And finally, you 00:12:00.360 --> 00:12:02.460 have the two drummers, Bill Kreutzman and Mickey 00:12:02.460 --> 00:12:06.279 Hart. A famously complex duo. Kreutzman was the 00:12:06.279 --> 00:12:08.179 anchor. He provided that steady shuffle beat. 00:12:08.340 --> 00:12:10.200 But he would always throw in these little oblique 00:12:10.200 --> 00:12:12.659 juxtapositions to keep it interesting. And Hart 00:12:12.659 --> 00:12:15.600 brought in the world music influence. He'd studied 00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:17.700 tabla drumming, so he incorporated those rhythms, 00:12:17.899 --> 00:12:20.700 other instruments, and even non -Western time 00:12:20.700 --> 00:12:23.080 signatures, like an 11 -count measure. It was 00:12:23.080 --> 00:12:25.220 so much more complex than standard rock drumming. 00:12:25.299 --> 00:12:27.259 So the big takeaway here is that it wasn't a 00:12:27.259 --> 00:12:29.700 band of individuals taking turns soloing. Not 00:12:29.700 --> 00:12:32.600 at all. It was a single organism. Garcia's lead, 00:12:32.860 --> 00:12:36.080 Lesh's counterpoint, Weir's subversion, the drummer's 00:12:36.080 --> 00:12:39.700 complexity, it all worked together as one inseparable 00:12:39.700 --> 00:12:42.690 unit. That's how they got the telepathy. The 00:12:42.690 --> 00:12:45.570 band's 30 -year career is, I mean, it's a huge 00:12:45.570 --> 00:12:47.549 story. The easiest way to break it down is probably 00:12:47.549 --> 00:12:50.649 by a keyboard player, which is kind of the tragic 00:12:50.649 --> 00:12:52.870 way to measure time. It really is. It starts 00:12:52.870 --> 00:12:56.549 with the Pigpen era from about 67 to 72. And 00:12:56.549 --> 00:12:59.029 right away, they are just intrinsically linked 00:12:59.029 --> 00:13:01.009 to the counterculture. Playing benefits like 00:13:01.009 --> 00:13:03.230 the mantra rock dance with Jonas Joplin and Allen 00:13:03.230 --> 00:13:05.429 Ginsberg. And using their music for activism. 00:13:05.649 --> 00:13:08.149 They played a free concert at Columbia during 00:13:08.149 --> 00:13:11.490 the anti -Vietnam War protests in 68. They had 00:13:11.490 --> 00:13:13.710 to smuggle the band on a campus in a bread truck. 00:13:13.889 --> 00:13:15.889 Classic. And the lineup is growing during this 00:13:15.889 --> 00:13:18.330 time. Yeah, Mickey Hart joins as the second drummer. 00:13:18.429 --> 00:13:21.169 And then Tom Constantine comes in on keyboards 00:13:21.169 --> 00:13:24.809 to help Pigpen, whose real strength was the bluesy 00:13:24.809 --> 00:13:27.870 organ, keep up with the band's, you know, psychedelic 00:13:27.870 --> 00:13:30.610 journeys. This era also gives us the truckin' 00:13:30.610 --> 00:13:33.450 incident. The foundational myth. January 1970, 00:13:33.909 --> 00:13:35.950 they get busted by the cops at their hotel in 00:13:35.950 --> 00:13:38.590 New Orleans. 19 people arrested. And the whole 00:13:38.590 --> 00:13:40.750 thing gets immortalized in the song Truckin', 00:13:40.750 --> 00:13:43.149 which just cements that image of them as these 00:13:43.149 --> 00:13:46.429 wandering outlaws. But the Pigpen era ends. tragically. 00:13:46.570 --> 00:13:48.669 He was in really poor health, played his last 00:13:48.669 --> 00:13:53.009 show in 72 and died in March 73 at age 27 from 00:13:53.009 --> 00:13:55.509 liver damage. And that really changed their sound, 00:13:55.570 --> 00:13:57.669 right? He was the blues heart of the band. He 00:13:57.669 --> 00:14:01.049 was. His death opened the door for a more jazzy, 00:14:01.049 --> 00:14:03.789 folk -influenced period, which is the Gottschalk 00:14:03.789 --> 00:14:06.970 era from 72 to 79. This is when Keith Gottschalk 00:14:06.970 --> 00:14:10.029 joins on piano and his wife, Donna Jean, joins 00:14:10.029 --> 00:14:12.070 on vocals. And it's also a huge business shift. 00:14:12.210 --> 00:14:14.370 They form their own label, Grateful Dead Records, 00:14:14.629 --> 00:14:16.509 to take control of their own masters. And it 00:14:16.509 --> 00:14:19.370 works. Week of the Flood in 73 is their biggest 00:14:19.370 --> 00:14:21.769 commercial success to that point. They're touring 00:14:21.769 --> 00:14:23.679 like crazy, but then they take control. this 00:14:23.679 --> 00:14:26.820 unexpected hiatus from 74 to 76 right to work 00:14:26.820 --> 00:14:29.559 on the grateful dead movie exactly and when they 00:14:29.559 --> 00:14:32.000 come back they enter what a lot of fans think 00:14:32.000 --> 00:14:35.480 is their absolute peak the spring 77 tour is 00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:39.639 just legendary the cornell show may 8 77 that's 00:14:39.639 --> 00:14:41.460 the one that's in the library of congress that's 00:14:41.460 --> 00:14:44.539 the one And their drawing power is just immense. 00:14:44.940 --> 00:14:48.399 They play a show in New Jersey to over 107 ,000 00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:51.320 people, a record that stood for almost 50 years. 00:14:51.519 --> 00:14:53.960 But that era also ends with a departure and a 00:14:53.960 --> 00:14:57.419 tragedy. Keith and Donna Jean leave in 79, and 00:14:57.419 --> 00:14:59.279 then Keith dies in a car crash the next year. 00:14:59.419 --> 00:15:01.860 Which brings us to the final chapter, the Midland 00:15:01.860 --> 00:15:05.190 -Wellnick era, from 79 to 95. Brett Midland joins, 00:15:05.409 --> 00:15:07.889 and he's seen as the perfect fit. He brings this 00:15:07.889 --> 00:15:10.830 powerful Hammond B3 sound that really fills out 00:15:10.830 --> 00:15:12.629 their sound. But this era is just completely 00:15:12.629 --> 00:15:14.909 overshadowed by the decline of Jerry Garcia's 00:15:14.909 --> 00:15:16.909 health. And this is a critical turning point. 00:15:17.129 --> 00:15:20.350 By the early 80s, Garcia is in really bad shape. 00:15:20.529 --> 00:15:23.649 Weight gain, smoking, and a very serious drug 00:15:23.649 --> 00:15:26.039 problem. The sources are specific. He was addicted 00:15:26.039 --> 00:15:28.340 to smoking a type of heroin known as Persian. 00:15:28.620 --> 00:15:31.220 It was so severe he was playing these abbreviated 00:15:31.220 --> 00:15:33.960 solo tours just to make quick cash to fund his 00:15:33.960 --> 00:15:35.980 habit. And the band finally holds an intervention 00:15:35.980 --> 00:15:40.360 in 85. They do. He agrees to go to rehab, but 00:15:40.360 --> 00:15:42.059 then he gets arrested for drug possession shortly 00:15:42.059 --> 00:15:44.860 after. He cleaned up for a bit, but the damage 00:15:44.860 --> 00:15:48.740 was done. In July of 86, he falls into a diabetic 00:15:48.740 --> 00:15:52.019 coma. That must have been terrifying for everyone. 00:15:52.100 --> 00:15:54.990 It was a real moment of panic. And the recovery 00:15:54.990 --> 00:15:57.429 was brutal. I mean, he literally had to relearn 00:15:57.429 --> 00:15:59.509 how to play the guitar. The coma had damaged 00:15:59.509 --> 00:16:01.529 his motor skills that badly. That's incredible 00:16:01.529 --> 00:16:03.929 dedication just to get back on stage. And when 00:16:03.929 --> 00:16:07.289 he came back, it sparked this huge revival. The 00:16:07.289 --> 00:16:09.909 1987 album In the Dark becomes their bestseller, 00:16:09.929 --> 00:16:11.970 and it gives them Touch of Grey, their only hit 00:16:11.970 --> 00:16:14.250 single. With the lyric, I will get by, I will 00:16:14.250 --> 00:16:17.269 survive. So ironic. But the tragic pattern with 00:16:17.269 --> 00:16:20.139 the keyboardists continues. Brent Midland dies 00:16:20.139 --> 00:16:23.600 of a narcotics overdose in July 1990. The third 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:26.419 keyboardist to die. Wow. Vince Welnick joins, 00:16:26.620 --> 00:16:28.840 with Bruce Hornsby kind of bridging the gap for 00:16:28.840 --> 00:16:30.279 a couple of years to help him learn the catalog. 00:16:30.519 --> 00:16:32.279 But the whole touring machine had just gotten 00:16:32.279 --> 00:16:34.740 too big. It's amazing they preached this collective 00:16:34.740 --> 00:16:38.360 idea of no leader, but everything seems to revolve 00:16:38.360 --> 00:16:40.419 around Garcia's health. It was a huge source 00:16:40.419 --> 00:16:43.519 of tension. And Garcia felt that weight. He was 00:16:43.519 --> 00:16:45.620 worried the whole thing had gotten too big to 00:16:45.620 --> 00:16:48.379 stop even though he needed a break. His health 00:16:48.379 --> 00:16:50.659 kept getting worse. And he died of a heart attack 00:16:50.659 --> 00:16:55.340 on August 9th, 1995. He was 53. Just one month 00:16:55.340 --> 00:16:57.659 after their final concert at Soldier Field in 00:16:57.659 --> 00:17:00.460 Chicago. And that was the end of the 30 -year 00:17:00.460 --> 00:17:02.940 run. It's so easy to just focus on the Grateful 00:17:02.940 --> 00:17:05.680 Dead, but... Jerry Garcia had this whole other 00:17:05.680 --> 00:17:08.880 prolific career outside the band. He just couldn't 00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:11.099 be contained by one thing. No, his acoustic roots 00:17:11.099 --> 00:17:13.279 were always there. He had the Bluegrass Band, 00:17:13.500 --> 00:17:15.880 Old and in the Way, and his long -running duo 00:17:15.880 --> 00:17:18.299 with the mandolinist David Grisman. Which is 00:17:18.299 --> 00:17:20.480 featured in that great documentary, Grateful 00:17:20.480 --> 00:17:23.700 Dog. Yeah. And on the electric side, he had the 00:17:23.700 --> 00:17:25.640 Jerry Garcia Band, which was all about these 00:17:25.640 --> 00:17:28.539 long R &B and funk jams. It was a chance for 00:17:28.539 --> 00:17:30.759 him to be the sole band leader. His session work 00:17:30.759 --> 00:17:32.400 is where you really see his range. He played 00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:36.500 on over 50 albums. 50. Including an album with 00:17:36.500 --> 00:17:40.019 the free jazz legend, Ornette Coleman. A rock 00:17:40.019 --> 00:17:42.140 guitarist playing with Ornette Coleman. It's 00:17:42.140 --> 00:17:45.829 just, it's wild. He was even listed as the spiritual 00:17:45.829 --> 00:17:48.849 advisor on Jefferson Airplane's Surrealistic 00:17:48.849 --> 00:17:51.470 Pillow. I love the story about Crosby, Stills, 00:17:51.490 --> 00:17:53.769 Nash, and Young. It just says so much about their 00:17:53.769 --> 00:17:56.269 priorities. It's one of the great 60s collaboration 00:17:56.269 --> 00:17:59.309 stories. Garcia played the pedal steel guitar 00:17:59.309 --> 00:18:02.950 on Teach Your Children. A huge, iconic hit. A 00:18:02.950 --> 00:18:04.950 massive hit. Yeah. But he didn't get paid in 00:18:04.950 --> 00:18:08.059 cash. No. The payment was... Harmony lessons. 00:18:08.160 --> 00:18:10.980 Harmony lessons. He traded his masterful steel 00:18:10.980 --> 00:18:13.519 guitar playing for vocal lessons for the Grateful 00:18:13.519 --> 00:18:15.319 Dead while they were making Working Man's Dead. 00:18:15.559 --> 00:18:18.819 That is absurdly perfect. Graham Nash taught 00:18:18.819 --> 00:18:21.039 them vocal techniques that you can hear all over 00:18:21.039 --> 00:18:23.740 that album and American Beauty. It just shows, 00:18:23.819 --> 00:18:25.839 for them, it wasn't about the money. It was about 00:18:25.839 --> 00:18:27.859 solving a creative problem they were having right 00:18:27.859 --> 00:18:30.000 then. And beyond music, he was also a visual 00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:32.660 artist. A successful one. He'd studied at the 00:18:32.660 --> 00:18:35.019 San Francisco Art Institute as a kid, but gave 00:18:35.019 --> 00:18:37.839 it up for music. In the late 80s, he got back 00:18:37.839 --> 00:18:41.140 into it. Drawings, etchings, watercolors. And 00:18:41.140 --> 00:18:43.579 it wasn't just a hobby. His art was licensed 00:18:43.579 --> 00:18:46.440 for merchandise, including the Jay Garcia necktie 00:18:46.440 --> 00:18:48.339 collection. The ultimate contradiction, right? 00:18:48.420 --> 00:18:51.059 The counterculture icon designs neckties for 00:18:51.059 --> 00:18:53.359 Madison Avenue. Yeah. And they were a huge commercial 00:18:53.359 --> 00:18:56.039 success. Okay, let's talk about the gear. The 00:18:56.039 --> 00:18:58.480 guitars of Jerry Garcia are legendary in their 00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:00.400 own right. They are. Especially the custom ones 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:02.420 built by the luthier Doug Irwin. The first big 00:19:02.420 --> 00:19:06.420 one was Wolf from 1973. It cost $1 ,500, which 00:19:06.420 --> 00:19:08.720 was a fortune back then. And it was incredibly 00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:11.140 high tech. It had active internal electronics. 00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:14.619 built -in buffer and preamp, which was key to 00:19:14.619 --> 00:19:17.220 his clean, sustained tone. And then came Tiger 00:19:17.220 --> 00:19:20.559 in 1979. Tiger was a beast. Made of these dense, 00:19:20.599 --> 00:19:23.380 exotic woods, it weighed 13 and a half pounds. 00:19:23.579 --> 00:19:26.119 Whoa. The weight gave it incredible sustain. 00:19:26.339 --> 00:19:28.920 And it had this complex switching system that 00:19:28.920 --> 00:19:30.900 let him blend all the pickups. That was his main 00:19:30.900 --> 00:19:33.980 guitar for 11 years, right up to the very last 00:19:33.980 --> 00:19:36.019 show. And the innovation just kept going. The 00:19:36.019 --> 00:19:39.740 last custom, Rosebud, from 1990, had MIDI capability. 00:19:40.240 --> 00:19:44.380 MIDI. So he could use his guitar to control a 00:19:44.380 --> 00:19:46.779 synthesizer. You can hear it on live albums from 00:19:46.779 --> 00:19:50.140 that era, like Without a Net. He was always searching 00:19:50.140 --> 00:19:52.339 for a new sound. And we can't forget his amp, 00:19:52.539 --> 00:19:57.140 the Budman. The Macintosh MC2300, nickname for 00:19:57.140 --> 00:19:59.380 the Budweiser sticker on it. It was the longest 00:19:59.380 --> 00:20:01.680 continuously used piece of gear in their whole 00:20:01.680 --> 00:20:05.519 history, from 73 to 93. Then after he died, there 00:20:05.519 --> 00:20:07.799 was this whole legal battle over Wolf and Tiger. 00:20:08.079 --> 00:20:10.859 Yeah, it got ugly. Garcia left the guitars to 00:20:10.859 --> 00:20:13.819 Doug Irwin in his will, but the band sued, saying 00:20:13.819 --> 00:20:15.940 they were banned property. Who ended up with 00:20:15.940 --> 00:20:18.759 them? Irwin won the lawsuit in 2001, but he had 00:20:18.759 --> 00:20:21.099 to auction them. And they sold for a staggering 00:20:21.099 --> 00:20:24.460 amount, over $1 .7 million for the pair in 2002. 00:20:24.700 --> 00:20:27.140 Wow. And then Wolf was re -auctioned for charity 00:20:27.140 --> 00:20:30.579 in 2017 for $1 .9 million. By itself. They're 00:20:30.579 --> 00:20:32.720 not just guitars. They're cultural artifacts. 00:20:33.140 --> 00:20:34.900 The story of the dead is completely inseparable 00:20:34.900 --> 00:20:36.460 from the story of the deadheads. They're two 00:20:36.460 --> 00:20:38.890 sides of the same coin. This fan base became 00:20:38.890 --> 00:20:41.470 a real community, a traveling city that followed 00:20:41.470 --> 00:20:43.630 the band everywhere. And what drew them was that 00:20:43.630 --> 00:20:46.390 every show was unique. You had to be there. You 00:20:46.390 --> 00:20:48.890 did. And this whole ecosystem grew up around 00:20:48.890 --> 00:20:52.210 the shows. The parking lot scene, Shakedown Street. 00:20:52.430 --> 00:20:55.049 Where you could buy anything from a grilled cheese 00:20:55.049 --> 00:20:58.170 to homemade t -shirts. To, most importantly, 00:20:58.470 --> 00:21:01.230 tapes of other concerts. The Deadheads were also 00:21:01.230 --> 00:21:04.059 meticulous archivists. They tracked every set 00:21:04.059 --> 00:21:06.359 list, compared every version of every song. It 00:21:06.359 --> 00:21:08.539 was like a form of scholarship. And that culture 00:21:08.539 --> 00:21:11.119 of sharing was officially sanctioned by the band, 00:21:11.299 --> 00:21:13.880 which was completely revolutionary at the time. 00:21:13.940 --> 00:21:16.380 The taping policy. This was the genius move. 00:21:16.640 --> 00:21:18.720 They didn't just tolerate fans recording their 00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:21.500 shows. They encouraged it. The only rule was 00:21:21.500 --> 00:21:24.029 you couldn't sell the tapes for a profit. And 00:21:24.029 --> 00:21:26.430 they eventually set up a dedicated tapers section 00:21:26.430 --> 00:21:29.230 right behind the soundboard for the best possible 00:21:29.230 --> 00:21:31.690 sound. It's now seen as this brilliant marketing 00:21:31.690 --> 00:21:34.069 strategy. The book Marketing Lessons from the 00:21:34.069 --> 00:21:36.109 Grateful Dead highlights it. They gave the music 00:21:36.109 --> 00:21:38.549 away for free. Which created this incredibly 00:21:38.549 --> 00:21:41.329 invested community that then drove demand for 00:21:41.329 --> 00:21:43.230 concert tickets, which is where the real money 00:21:43.230 --> 00:21:46.470 was. Exactly. Of the 2 ,350 shows they played, 00:21:46.650 --> 00:21:49.890 almost 2 ,200 of them were taped by fans. But 00:21:49.890 --> 00:21:52.289 that massive community, that traveling city, 00:21:52.450 --> 00:21:54.869 it eventually got too big to control. It did. 00:21:54.990 --> 00:21:57.869 The mellow reputation was generally true, but 00:21:57.869 --> 00:22:00.759 by... The mid -90s, the scene was getting rougher 00:22:00.759 --> 00:22:02.940 around the edges. The sources point to the riot 00:22:02.940 --> 00:22:05.440 at the Deer Creek Music Center in Indiana, July 00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:09.180 1995. That was a real breaking point. Hundreds 00:22:09.180 --> 00:22:11.299 of people without tickets tried to crash the 00:22:11.299 --> 00:22:13.960 gates, fighting with police. The next show was 00:22:13.960 --> 00:22:17.140 canceled, and Garcia was devastated. He realized 00:22:17.140 --> 00:22:19.599 they couldn't guarantee a safe environment anymore. 00:22:19.900 --> 00:22:22.640 It's that tension of trying to maintain a counterculture 00:22:22.640 --> 00:22:26.670 vibe on a corporate rock scale. And speaking 00:22:26.670 --> 00:22:28.769 of corporate, their non -commercial approach 00:22:28.769 --> 00:22:31.690 to taping existed right alongside a very sophisticated 00:22:31.690 --> 00:22:33.650 approach to their business. This is the other 00:22:33.650 --> 00:22:36.049 great contradiction. Their lawyer, Halcant the 00:22:36.049 --> 00:22:38.710 Tsar, was a genius. He was. He made sure the 00:22:38.710 --> 00:22:40.670 band retained ownership of their music masters 00:22:40.670 --> 00:22:42.990 and their publishing rights. Which was incredibly 00:22:42.990 --> 00:22:45.890 rare for that era. Most bands signed that stuff 00:22:45.890 --> 00:22:48.710 away. But the dead understood that the real value 00:22:48.710 --> 00:22:51.170 was in the live experience, so they used that 00:22:51.170 --> 00:22:53.490 as leverage to keep control of their recordings. 00:22:53.769 --> 00:22:56.869 And that decision paid off for decades. It's 00:22:56.869 --> 00:22:59.210 why their archival release program is so successful 00:22:59.210 --> 00:23:02.230 today. So they managed to balance this free exchange 00:23:02.230 --> 00:23:05.769 ethos with really smart financial planning. Two 00:23:05.769 --> 00:23:07.890 separate revenue streams, perfectly balanced. 00:23:08.170 --> 00:23:10.769 And their unique cultural status even led to 00:23:10.769 --> 00:23:14.859 some... unexpected international diplomacy. The 00:23:14.859 --> 00:23:17.299 Lithuanian basketball team at the 1992 Olympics. 00:23:17.460 --> 00:23:19.259 Right. They had just gained independence from 00:23:19.259 --> 00:23:21.460 the Soviet Union and had no money. So the Grateful 00:23:21.460 --> 00:23:24.440 Dead heard about it and paid for the team's transportation 00:23:24.440 --> 00:23:27.079 to Barcelona. And more famously, they sent them 00:23:27.079 --> 00:23:29.799 those iconic tie -dyed jerseys with the skeleton 00:23:29.799 --> 00:23:32.299 dunking a basketball. Which became this global 00:23:32.299 --> 00:23:34.900 symbol of freedom and defiance. It's an incredible 00:23:34.900 --> 00:23:37.920 story. After Garcia died, the music, of course, 00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:40.490 continued. Yeah, the surviving members reunited 00:23:40.490 --> 00:23:43.049 in various forms. The other ones, the dead. And 00:23:43.049 --> 00:23:45.349 then the big 50th anniversary shows in 2015, 00:23:45.609 --> 00:23:48.190 the Fairly Well concerts. Which led to the formation 00:23:48.190 --> 00:23:50.750 of Deading Company with John Mayer, which was 00:23:50.750 --> 00:23:53.369 massively successful, touring right up until 00:23:53.369 --> 00:23:56.630 2023. It just proves the music is timeless. But 00:23:56.630 --> 00:23:59.069 the truly permanent legacy is the Grateful Dead 00:23:59.069 --> 00:24:02.750 archive at UC Santa Cruz. That donation in 2008 00:24:02.750 --> 00:24:05.809 solidified them as a subject of serious academic 00:24:05.809 --> 00:24:08.519 study. It's one of the most important popular 00:24:08.519 --> 00:24:10.980 culture collections of the 20th century. Their 00:24:10.980 --> 00:24:13.700 legacy is literally locked in for future generations 00:24:13.700 --> 00:24:16.539 to study. So if you were to boil it all down, 00:24:16.640 --> 00:24:19.059 the key takeaway with the Grateful Dead is their 00:24:19.059 --> 00:24:21.819 ability to just integrate completely contradictory 00:24:21.819 --> 00:24:24.099 ideas into a model that worked. Right. You have 00:24:24.099 --> 00:24:27.240 this highly experimental out there music that's 00:24:27.240 --> 00:24:29.440 built on a foundation of traditional American 00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:32.180 funk songs. You have massive commercial success 00:24:32.180 --> 00:24:34.400 as a touring act, which was funded by what were 00:24:34.400 --> 00:24:36.880 basically anti -commercial policies, like letting 00:24:36.880 --> 00:24:38.880 people tape and trade your shows for free. And 00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:41.000 you have a band structure that thrived on this 00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:43.660 idea of no leader. Even though the whole operation 00:24:43.660 --> 00:24:45.839 revolved around the genius and the health crises 00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:49.140 of one person. Jerry Garcia is fascinating. And 00:24:49.140 --> 00:24:51.099 it all comes back to their really sophisticated 00:24:51.099 --> 00:24:53.700 strategy around their intellectual property. 00:24:53.859 --> 00:24:55.980 We talked about their lawyer, Hal Kant. They 00:24:55.980 --> 00:24:58.680 were so revolutionary. They encouraged the fans 00:24:58.680 --> 00:25:01.339 to record and share the live shows, but they 00:25:01.339 --> 00:25:03.960 simultaneously kept ironclad ownership of their 00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:06.220 masters in publishing. They gave away the performance 00:25:06.220 --> 00:25:08.400 because they knew the experience was what people 00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:10.619 would pay for. Exactly. They protected the underlying 00:25:10.619 --> 00:25:13.759 asset, which allowed them to pivot into the hugely 00:25:13.759 --> 00:25:16.380 lucrative archival market later on. And this 00:25:16.380 --> 00:25:18.220 raises a really fascinating question for you, 00:25:18.279 --> 00:25:20.799 the listener, to think about. In our current 00:25:20.799 --> 00:25:23.880 digital world, where sharing content is so easy 00:25:23.880 --> 00:25:27.259 and so contentious, what does that original free 00:25:27.259 --> 00:25:31.460 exchange, no profit ethos really mean when you 00:25:31.460 --> 00:25:33.900 put it next to a very deliberate, financially 00:25:33.900 --> 00:25:37.180 smart strategy of retaining your core creative 00:25:37.180 --> 00:25:39.680 ownership? They somehow made freedom and ownership 00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:42.259 work together. They made them symbiotic. And 00:25:42.259 --> 00:25:45.529 that tension. How you let your fans be your best 00:25:45.529 --> 00:25:47.569 marketers without losing control of the value 00:25:47.569 --> 00:25:49.890 of your work is still something the entire media 00:25:49.890 --> 00:25:51.369 world is trying to figure out today.