WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.480 Today, we're doing a deep dive into someone who 00:00:02.480 --> 00:00:05.919 wasn't just a musician in different genres. It 00:00:05.919 --> 00:00:09.179 feels more like he picked up genres and, well, 00:00:09.199 --> 00:00:11.320 used them like tools, sometimes smashing them 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:13.500 together to make something completely new. We're 00:00:13.500 --> 00:00:16.640 talking about John Davies' Kale OBE. Absolutely. 00:00:16.899 --> 00:00:18.940 The essential polymath of the avant -garde, you 00:00:18.940 --> 00:00:20.899 could say. I mean, just calling him a founding 00:00:20.899 --> 00:00:22.920 member of the Velvet Underground doesn't nearly 00:00:22.920 --> 00:00:25.100 cover it, though that's obviously huge. Oh, for 00:00:25.100 --> 00:00:27.800 sure. It's his biggest claim to fame for many. 00:00:28.160 --> 00:00:30.399 But he's also a composer, singer, songwriter, 00:00:30.480 --> 00:00:33.259 producer, multi -instrumentalist. His career 00:00:33.259 --> 00:00:37.100 spans, what, six decades now? And it's just constantly 00:00:37.100 --> 00:00:40.920 shifted rock, drone music, classical discipline, 00:00:41.340 --> 00:00:44.259 avant -garde noise, right up to modern electronica. 00:00:44.320 --> 00:00:46.679 That sheer range is incredible. So our mission 00:00:46.679 --> 00:00:49.320 today is to trace this really fascinating, sometimes 00:00:49.320 --> 00:00:52.439 pretty fraught... We're going from Cale as this 00:00:52.439 --> 00:00:55.119 Welsh prodigy, you know, steeped in classical 00:00:55.119 --> 00:00:58.759 music to a downtown New York City experimentalist 00:00:58.759 --> 00:01:01.100 through the whole Velvet Underground iconic period 00:01:01.100 --> 00:01:04.700 into those, frankly, quite terrifying solo years 00:01:04.700 --> 00:01:06.680 in the 70s. Yeah, definitely dark times there. 00:01:06.780 --> 00:01:09.760 And then his enduring role as a producer. I mean, 00:01:09.780 --> 00:01:12.260 he helped launch entire movements like Protopunk. 00:01:12.400 --> 00:01:15.659 Our sources really map out these radical stylistic 00:01:15.659 --> 00:01:18.780 shifts and his influence, which you got to say 00:01:18.780 --> 00:01:21.069 is pretty enduring. And I think a good way to 00:01:21.069 --> 00:01:24.489 frame Kale's whole career is as a study in collision, 00:01:24.730 --> 00:01:27.260 deliberate collision even. OK. Collision between 00:01:27.260 --> 00:01:29.439 what? Well, primarily between the discipline, 00:01:29.739 --> 00:01:33.239 the rigor of European classical music, the stuff 00:01:33.239 --> 00:01:35.200 he learned growing up in Wales, and then the 00:01:35.200 --> 00:01:38.439 absolute untamed chaos of American rock and roll 00:01:38.439 --> 00:01:40.719 he found later. Right. Structure versus noise. 00:01:40.939 --> 00:01:43.140 Exactly. And his core strength, I think, is just 00:01:43.140 --> 00:01:46.560 his adaptability. Moving so easily between viola, 00:01:46.560 --> 00:01:50.159 bass, keyboards, piano, his voice, and innovating 00:01:50.159 --> 00:01:52.019 on pretty much all of them. You can see that 00:01:52.019 --> 00:01:54.120 constant movement just by glancing at the labels 00:01:54.120 --> 00:01:57.060 he's been on, can't you? Columbia. Surprise Island, 00:01:57.319 --> 00:02:00.400 A &M, Domino. Never staying put. He never seemed 00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:02.379 to stay in one place long enough to get too comfortable, 00:02:02.459 --> 00:02:04.400 did he? So here's the big question we're trying 00:02:04.400 --> 00:02:06.120 to unpack today. And it kind of sums up that 00:02:06.120 --> 00:02:08.479 duality you mentioned. Yeah. How did the guy 00:02:08.479 --> 00:02:11.800 who composed this, you know, beautiful, complex 00:02:11.800 --> 00:02:16.319 Takata in a Welsh church end up, maybe two decades 00:02:16.319 --> 00:02:19.740 later, seriously wanting to record a rock album 00:02:19.740 --> 00:02:24.020 with the amplifiers literally submerged underwater? 00:02:24.460 --> 00:02:27.069 Huh. Yeah, that's the Kael paradox, isn't it? 00:02:27.129 --> 00:02:29.330 That journey, that bridge between those two points, 00:02:29.469 --> 00:02:32.610 that's the deep dive. Okay, let's unpack this. 00:02:32.810 --> 00:02:35.270 So to really get that collision, we have to start 00:02:35.270 --> 00:02:38.090 with the classical roots. John Davies Kael, born 00:02:38.090 --> 00:02:42.909 March 9th, 1942. Garnet, Carmarthaminshire, southwest 00:02:42.909 --> 00:02:46.849 Wales, a mining village. And his early life right 00:02:46.849 --> 00:02:49.270 away sets up this duality we talked about. He 00:02:49.270 --> 00:02:51.379 grew up bilingual, but... It was kind of fractured, 00:02:51.439 --> 00:02:54.159 you know. His dad, Will Cale, only spoke English. 00:02:54.360 --> 00:02:56.659 Okay. But his mother, Margaret Davies, who was 00:02:56.659 --> 00:02:58.860 a primary school teacher, she taught him Welsh. 00:02:59.020 --> 00:03:01.319 So Cale actually didn't start learning English 00:03:01.319 --> 00:03:03.780 until he was about seven at school. Wow, really? 00:03:03.900 --> 00:03:06.280 So Welsh was his first language, basically. Yeah, 00:03:06.319 --> 00:03:08.479 giving him this really deep, early connection 00:03:08.479 --> 00:03:10.819 to the language and culture of his home, distinct 00:03:10.819 --> 00:03:13.599 from his father's influence. And this cultural 00:03:13.599 --> 00:03:16.360 root then gets combined with some serious musical 00:03:16.360 --> 00:03:18.939 training pretty early on. Oh, absolutely. He 00:03:18.939 --> 00:03:21.969 showed talent early. played the organ at Ammonford 00:03:21.969 --> 00:03:24.629 Church. And get this, the BBC actually recorded 00:03:24.629 --> 00:03:27.590 a toccata he composed back then. No way. As a 00:03:27.590 --> 00:03:30.129 kid. Yeah. And apparently some commentators at 00:03:30.129 --> 00:03:32.270 the time were comparing that early piece, which, 00:03:32.310 --> 00:03:34.650 you know, a toccata requires some technical chops, 00:03:34.849 --> 00:03:38.710 to the Soviet composer Aram Kachaturian. Kachaturian. 00:03:38.849 --> 00:03:41.069 That's quite a comparison for a young composer. 00:03:41.509 --> 00:03:43.689 Suggests something pretty dramatic, maybe. Right. 00:03:43.770 --> 00:03:46.969 A certain dramatic, maybe slightly exotic, romantic 00:03:46.969 --> 00:03:50.370 feel, even in his earliest classical stuff. This 00:03:50.370 --> 00:03:51.969 wasn't just messing around on the organ. He got 00:03:51.969 --> 00:03:54.129 really good on the viola, joined the National 00:03:54.129 --> 00:03:57.069 Youth Orchestra of Wales, the NYOW, when he was 00:03:57.069 --> 00:04:00.150 only 13. 13. OK, so serious talent. Definitely. 00:04:00.270 --> 00:04:02.909 That really cemented his technical skills. And 00:04:02.909 --> 00:04:05.169 it all led to him getting a scholarship to study 00:04:05.169 --> 00:04:07.469 music at Goldsmiths College, University of London. 00:04:07.629 --> 00:04:10.389 OK, Goldsmiths. And that's where the collision 00:04:10.389 --> 00:04:12.590 starts to happen, right? The classical discipline 00:04:12.590 --> 00:04:16.990 hits the avant -garde. Exactly. This is where 00:04:16.990 --> 00:04:19.410 it gets really interesting. Because this shift, 00:04:19.470 --> 00:04:21.810 it wasn't just accidental drift. It feels like 00:04:21.810 --> 00:04:24.790 a deliberate philosophical choice he made. While 00:04:24.790 --> 00:04:27.949 he was at Goldsmith's, Kale just dove headfirst 00:04:27.949 --> 00:04:30.149 into the countercultural avant -garde scene. 00:04:30.649 --> 00:04:33.930 Specifically, Fluxus. Fluxus. Yeah. Right. They 00:04:33.930 --> 00:04:35.709 have that whole art movement, wasn't it? Performance 00:04:35.709 --> 00:04:38.569 art, simple stuff, breaking down barriers between 00:04:38.569 --> 00:04:40.569 disciplines. Precisely. It wasn't just about 00:04:40.569 --> 00:04:42.930 listening to weird music. It was about... doing 00:04:42.930 --> 00:04:45.790 it, participating, organizing. So he got involved. 00:04:46.199 --> 00:04:49.199 Big time. He organized one of the early Fluxus 00:04:49.199 --> 00:04:51.959 concerts, a little festival of new music, July 00:04:51.959 --> 00:04:55.699 6, 1963. And crucially, he conducted the very 00:04:55.699 --> 00:04:58.199 first U .K. performance of John Cage's concert 00:04:58.199 --> 00:05:00.699 for piano and orchestra. John Cage. OK, that's 00:05:00.699 --> 00:05:02.540 a major influence right there. Embracing chance, 00:05:02.779 --> 00:05:05.720 silence. Totally transformative. That experience 00:05:05.720 --> 00:05:08.319 of interpreting Cade, working with those ideas, 00:05:08.560 --> 00:05:10.879 it really prepped him for the kind of, let's 00:05:10.879 --> 00:05:13.060 say, interdisciplinary chaos he'd later bring 00:05:13.060 --> 00:05:14.819 to rock music. And this fascination with the 00:05:14.819 --> 00:05:16.800 avant -garde. it leads him straight to America, 00:05:16.899 --> 00:05:20.779 doesn't it? 1963. Aaron Copland was involved. 00:05:21.079 --> 00:05:23.579 Yeah, Copland apparently saw his potential and 00:05:23.579 --> 00:05:25.899 recommended Kale for further study at Tanglewood, 00:05:25.980 --> 00:05:28.420 the big summer music academy in the States. But 00:05:28.420 --> 00:05:30.360 Tanglewood wasn't really where he landed, was 00:05:30.360 --> 00:05:33.259 it? It was more... Downtown New York. Exactly. 00:05:33.600 --> 00:05:36.259 Once he hit New York City, that formal institutional 00:05:36.259 --> 00:05:38.720 training kind of took a backseat pretty quickly 00:05:38.720 --> 00:05:40.819 to the downtown performance scene. He just jumped 00:05:40.819 --> 00:05:43.139 right in. What kind of stuff was he doing? Well, 00:05:43.259 --> 00:05:45.540 one of his first big things was participating 00:05:45.540 --> 00:05:49.040 in that notorious Eric Sadie performance, Vexations. 00:05:49.519 --> 00:05:52.899 The 18 -hour, 40 -minute piano marathon, September 00:05:52.899 --> 00:05:56.300 9th, 1963. He did it alongside John Cage and 00:05:56.300 --> 00:05:59.060 a few others. 18 hours. Yeah. Playing the same 00:05:59.060 --> 00:06:02.819 short piece over and over. Like 840 times. Yep. 00:06:03.540 --> 00:06:05.779 Unbelievable endurance required. And then, you 00:06:05.779 --> 00:06:07.560 know, he actually appeared on that TV panel show, 00:06:07.740 --> 00:06:10.000 I've Got a Secret. Wait, his secret was that 00:06:10.000 --> 00:06:12.839 he played piano for 18 hours straight. Basically, 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:16.339 yeah. It's kind of peak 1960s avant -garde celebrity, 00:06:16.639 --> 00:06:19.079 isn't it? Turning this intense artistic endurance 00:06:19.079 --> 00:06:22.779 thing into, like, pop culture trivia. That's 00:06:22.779 --> 00:06:26.379 wild. But beyond the stunts, this whole immersion 00:06:26.379 --> 00:06:29.319 was creatively vital for him. oh absolutely foundational 00:06:29.319 --> 00:06:32.000 he played in lamonta young's group the theater 00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:35.180 of eternal music drone music right those really 00:06:35.180 --> 00:06:38.459 long sustained notes patience texture exactly 00:06:38.459 --> 00:06:41.660 it teaches you how tiny sonic shifts can build 00:06:41.660 --> 00:06:44.620 huge tension and that's precisely the kind of 00:06:44.620 --> 00:06:46.100 thinking he brought into the velvet underground 00:06:46.100 --> 00:06:48.790 sound later and it was in that group playing 00:06:48.790 --> 00:06:51.170 drone music that he met Sterling Morrison. Ah, 00:06:51.410 --> 00:06:54.009 another key connection. So what was the big takeaway 00:06:54.009 --> 00:06:56.709 for him philosophically from Cage and this whole 00:06:56.709 --> 00:06:59.250 scene? Well, Cale himself said that Cage's writings, 00:06:59.350 --> 00:07:01.870 Cage's mentorship, it gave him this crucial, 00:07:01.990 --> 00:07:05.709 relaxed, artistic outlook. He felt it kind of 00:07:05.709 --> 00:07:08.350 freed him from what he saw as this crippling 00:07:08.350 --> 00:07:11.069 need European composers felt to constantly justify 00:07:11.069 --> 00:07:13.750 and intellectualize everything they did. So Cage 00:07:13.750 --> 00:07:15.930 gave him permission to just experiment. Pretty 00:07:15.930 --> 00:07:18.129 much. Permission to experiment wildly without 00:07:18.129 --> 00:07:20.230 needing approval or having to write a thesis 00:07:20.230 --> 00:07:22.750 about it every time. And he took that license, 00:07:22.889 --> 00:07:25.129 that freedom, straight into forming the Velvet 00:07:25.129 --> 00:07:27.970 Underground. Which brings us right to the crucible. 00:07:28.490 --> 00:07:31.709 The Velvet Underground. Kale co -founds it with 00:07:31.709 --> 00:07:35.089 Lou Reed in 1965. They bring in Angus MacLeese 00:07:35.089 --> 00:07:38.110 and Sterling Morrison. Just a perfect storm, 00:07:38.230 --> 00:07:40.870 really, of downtown art school thinking and raw 00:07:40.870 --> 00:07:43.850 rock energy. Yeah, but that initial lineup hit 00:07:43.850 --> 00:07:46.209 a snag almost immediately, didn't it? A philosophical 00:07:46.209 --> 00:07:48.889 one. What happened? The band got offered their 00:07:48.889 --> 00:07:52.110 first paying gig, just 75 bucks, playing at Summit 00:07:52.110 --> 00:07:55.120 High School. And Angus MacLeese just... quit 00:07:55.120 --> 00:07:58.220 on the spot quit why he saw taking money for 00:07:58.220 --> 00:08:01.579 their art as like the ultimate sellout betraying 00:08:01.579 --> 00:08:04.339 the purity of the art form wow That's quite ironic 00:08:04.339 --> 00:08:06.720 considering the VU legacy and, well, the money 00:08:06.720 --> 00:08:08.939 it generates now. Totally ironic. Anyway, McLeese 00:08:08.939 --> 00:08:11.439 is out and Mo Tucker comes in on drums. Now, 00:08:11.500 --> 00:08:13.300 Cale apparently had some initial objections, 00:08:13.500 --> 00:08:15.620 kind of old -fashioned ideas about having a woman 00:08:15.620 --> 00:08:17.899 drummer. Really? Cale? Yeah, according to the 00:08:17.899 --> 00:08:20.639 sources. But he very quickly realized how essential 00:08:20.639 --> 00:08:23.899 she was. Her style, minimalist, tribal, standing 00:08:23.899 --> 00:08:26.259 up, pounding those drums, it became such a unique, 00:08:26.420 --> 00:08:29.019 integral part of their whole sound. Absolutely. 00:08:29.040 --> 00:08:31.680 You can't imagine the VU without that beat. Now, 00:08:31.680 --> 00:08:33.669 Cale was already making... ways before they even 00:08:33.669 --> 00:08:35.929 released an album, right? That demo tape story. 00:08:36.230 --> 00:08:39.509 Oh, yeah, that's crucial. Summer of 65, he takes 00:08:39.509 --> 00:08:43.970 this raw, mostly acoustic VU demo reel back to 00:08:43.970 --> 00:08:46.210 Britain, tries to shop it around, get a deal. 00:08:46.389 --> 00:08:49.360 And fails. Fails to get a contract, yeah. But 00:08:49.360 --> 00:08:52.200 people like Joe Boyd heard it and the tape started 00:08:52.200 --> 00:08:55.240 circulating in the UK underground scene. So you 00:08:55.240 --> 00:08:57.360 end up with this weird situation where bands 00:08:57.360 --> 00:08:59.759 like the Deviants, the Yardbirds, even David 00:08:59.759 --> 00:09:02.299 Bowie were apparently covering Velvet Underground 00:09:02.299 --> 00:09:04.779 songs before the first album, Velvet Underground 00:09:04.779 --> 00:09:07.820 and Nico, even came out in 67. So Kale's early 00:09:07.820 --> 00:09:10.600 hustle basically seeded the ground for glam and 00:09:10.600 --> 00:09:12.740 punk rock over there just by spreading that tape. 00:09:12.879 --> 00:09:14.909 You could definitely argue that. His influence 00:09:14.909 --> 00:09:16.830 was spreading before they even had a record deal. 00:09:17.289 --> 00:09:20.070 Now, on those first two albums, his sound contribution 00:09:20.070 --> 00:09:23.029 is just massive. He played everything, didn't 00:09:23.029 --> 00:09:26.200 he? Viola, bass, piano, celesta. Backing vocals 00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:28.460 sometimes. But the signature thing, the real 00:09:28.460 --> 00:09:30.899 kale sound, was that electrically amplified viola. 00:09:30.899 --> 00:09:33.279 He'd often run it through fuzz boxes, distortion 00:09:33.279 --> 00:09:36.740 pedals, just like a guitar. Creating those screeching, 00:09:36.879 --> 00:09:40.419 feedback -heavy, drone -like textures. Exactly. 00:09:40.419 --> 00:09:43.419 Listen to Venus and Furs. That's a classical 00:09:43.419 --> 00:09:46.279 instrument, the viola, being used to create cure, 00:09:46.379 --> 00:09:49.419 abrasive noise. It's the collision you talked 00:09:49.419 --> 00:09:51.639 about happening right there in the sound. And 00:09:51.639 --> 00:09:53.340 that aesthetic was there from the very beginning, 00:09:53.419 --> 00:09:55.330 even on their first sort of official. release 00:09:55.330 --> 00:09:58.230 that track loop right loop that instrumental 00:09:58.230 --> 00:10:01.149 feedback experiment that kale did it was given 00:10:01.149 --> 00:10:03.690 away as a flexi disc with aspen magazine that 00:10:03.690 --> 00:10:05.490 was technically their first commercially available 00:10:05.490 --> 00:10:08.809 recording and it's pure kale noise exploration 00:10:08.809 --> 00:10:12.240 now the dynamic between kale and reed That was 00:10:12.240 --> 00:10:14.799 the engine, wasn't it? But based entirely on 00:10:14.799 --> 00:10:17.460 creative tension. Oh, absolutely. You had Lou 00:10:17.460 --> 00:10:19.679 Reed, the street poet, focused on, you know, 00:10:19.679 --> 00:10:22.399 pop structures, albeit dark ones, and those incredible 00:10:22.399 --> 00:10:24.620 lyrics. And then you had Kale, the classically 00:10:24.620 --> 00:10:27.100 trained noise artist, pushing for drone, texture, 00:10:27.320 --> 00:10:29.659 improvisation, chaos. And the proof is right 00:10:29.659 --> 00:10:31.700 there in the record. Totally. Compare the sound 00:10:31.700 --> 00:10:34.139 of White Light, White Heat, that's the Kale era 00:10:34.139 --> 00:10:37.120 album. It's proto -noise rock, maximum volume, 00:10:37.399 --> 00:10:40.940 feedback, those long, intense jams. Like Sister 00:10:40.940 --> 00:10:44.220 Ray. Exactly. Then look at the next album, the 00:10:44.220 --> 00:10:46.480 self -titled one, The Velvet Underground, recorded 00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:50.309 right after Kale left. It's quiet. It's acoustic. 00:10:50.710 --> 00:10:54.009 It's almost folk rock influenced in places. A 00:10:54.009 --> 00:10:56.850 completely different band, sonically. The subtraction 00:10:56.850 --> 00:10:59.629 of KL just immediately resulted in a radically 00:10:59.629 --> 00:11:02.429 different, much less chaotic sound. You can hear 00:11:02.429 --> 00:11:05.809 him pushing all over White Heat, though, that 00:11:05.809 --> 00:11:09.190 manic driving organ on Sister Ray. 17 minutes 00:11:09.190 --> 00:11:11.970 of it. Right. And he takes lead vocals twice, 00:11:12.210 --> 00:11:15.350 shares the lead with Reed on the very experimental 00:11:15.350 --> 00:11:18.259 Lady Godiva's Operation, and then... he does 00:11:18.259 --> 00:11:20.840 the deadpan narration on Reed's disturbing spoken 00:11:20.840 --> 00:11:23.679 word piece, The Gift. He was really committed 00:11:23.679 --> 00:11:25.820 to that dissonance, wasn't he? Even later, looking 00:11:25.820 --> 00:11:27.960 back. Yeah, he made this fascinating comparison 00:11:27.960 --> 00:11:30.600 later on. He said his use of out -of -tune stuff 00:11:30.600 --> 00:11:33.580 and noise in the VU was kind of like the indecipherable 00:11:33.580 --> 00:11:35.919 lyricism of certain strains of southern hip -hop. 00:11:36.059 --> 00:11:38.379 Wait, what? Southern hip -hop? How did he connect 00:11:38.379 --> 00:11:41.289 those? His point was, if he could use deliberately 00:11:41.289 --> 00:11:44.909 out of tune sounds to convey feeling, then rappers 00:11:44.909 --> 00:11:47.250 didn't necessarily need every word to make perfect 00:11:47.250 --> 00:11:50.330 literal sense either. Both were using sonic disruption, 00:11:50.529 --> 00:11:53.220 let's call it, for artistic effect. embracing 00:11:53.220 --> 00:11:55.419 chaos. That's a bold connection. Is he saying 00:11:55.419 --> 00:11:57.960 there's a direct line or just drawing a parallel 00:11:57.960 --> 00:12:01.059 in spirit? More the latter, I think. But it really 00:12:01.059 --> 00:12:03.100 shows his core philosophy, doesn't it? He doesn't 00:12:03.100 --> 00:12:05.320 just see his early work as proto -punk. He sees 00:12:05.320 --> 00:12:07.600 it as this foundational act of radicalism that 00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:10.460 kind of permits all future musical chaos. The 00:12:10.460 --> 00:12:12.980 goal was always to break the rules, dismantle 00:12:12.980 --> 00:12:15.940 the expected musical language. But maybe dismantling 00:12:15.940 --> 00:12:19.039 too much proved too much for Lou Reed. By September 00:12:19.039 --> 00:12:22.440 68, Things got really tense. Yeah. The friction 00:12:22.440 --> 00:12:24.519 just became unbearable. The sources are pretty 00:12:24.519 --> 00:12:26.860 clear. Reed basically gave Sterling Morrison 00:12:26.860 --> 00:12:29.580 and Mo Tucker an ultimatum. Either Kale gets 00:12:29.580 --> 00:12:32.519 fired or Reed walks away from the band. Wow. 00:12:32.620 --> 00:12:35.779 And they chose Reed. Reluctantly, it seems, Reid's 00:12:35.779 --> 00:12:38.019 argument was that the band needed to become more 00:12:38.019 --> 00:12:41.019 accessible, less experimental. Cale played his 00:12:41.019 --> 00:12:43.620 last gig with them at the Boston Tea Party. And 00:12:43.620 --> 00:12:46.200 the reason Reid apparently gave, according to 00:12:46.200 --> 00:12:48.500 Robert Quine anyway, was just that Cale's ideas 00:12:48.500 --> 00:12:51.600 were too out there. And the classic example, 00:12:51.740 --> 00:12:54.460 the almost mythical story representing that radicalism 00:12:54.460 --> 00:12:57.350 is the underwater amps thing. The underwater 00:12:57.350 --> 00:13:00.009 amps. Yeah, the sources back this up. Kale allegedly 00:13:00.009 --> 00:13:02.450 pitched the idea of recording their next album 00:13:02.450 --> 00:13:04.990 with all the amplifiers submerged in a giant 00:13:04.990 --> 00:13:07.769 tank of water. Just imagine the sound. Or the 00:13:07.769 --> 00:13:10.110 electrocution risk. Right. Reed totally rejected 00:13:10.110 --> 00:13:12.730 it. Too destructive. Too anti -commercial. Too, 00:13:12.750 --> 00:13:16.409 well, too Kale, basically. It makes you wonder, 00:13:16.470 --> 00:13:19.230 though. If Reed hadn't fired him and Kale had 00:13:19.230 --> 00:13:21.490 somehow pulled off recording an album underwater, 00:13:21.809 --> 00:13:24.889 how different would Noy's rock history be? Impossible 00:13:24.889 --> 00:13:27.190 to know. Yeah. Mo Tucker's quote about his departure 00:13:27.190 --> 00:13:29.669 really sums it up, doesn't it? It does. She said, 00:13:29.710 --> 00:13:32.029 when John left, it was really sad. The lunacy 00:13:32.029 --> 00:13:35.730 factor was gone. His dismissal, painful as it 00:13:35.730 --> 00:13:38.210 must have been, effectively just released him 00:13:38.210 --> 00:13:40.330 back into the wild, back into that experimental 00:13:40.330 --> 00:13:43.830 world where that kind of lunacy wasn't just tolerated, 00:13:43.830 --> 00:13:46.070 it was kind of the whole point. And Kale certainly 00:13:46.070 --> 00:13:49.299 didn't waste time warning. fired in 68, and boom, 00:13:49.440 --> 00:13:51.580 he immediately pivots, becomes this really crucial 00:13:51.580 --> 00:13:54.779 producer and arranger, using that classical discipline, 00:13:54.960 --> 00:13:57.159 actually, to shape the sound of bands that would 00:13:57.159 --> 00:13:59.259 become punk and shape the singer -songwriter 00:13:59.259 --> 00:14:02.320 scene, too. Yeah, this period often gets a bit 00:14:02.320 --> 00:14:05.059 overshadowed by the VU stuff, but it's so important. 00:14:05.279 --> 00:14:07.320 His ability to bring some kind of structure, 00:14:07.500 --> 00:14:10.120 some discipline to these really raw, chaotic 00:14:10.120 --> 00:14:12.600 artists was pretty unique. You hear it right 00:14:12.600 --> 00:14:14.480 away on the Stooges' first album, their self 00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:17.700 -titled debut from 1969. Protopunk. Absolutely. 00:14:18.299 --> 00:14:21.340 And Kale, who understood noise and drone, kind 00:14:21.340 --> 00:14:23.899 of created this controlled sonic space where 00:14:23.899 --> 00:14:26.740 Iggy Pop's raw energy could just explode, but 00:14:26.740 --> 00:14:29.279 without it falling apart completely. It's a proto 00:14:29.279 --> 00:14:31.779 -punk monument, but arguably built using classical 00:14:31.779 --> 00:14:34.639 principles of structure and texture. And then 00:14:34.639 --> 00:14:37.259 there's his work with Nico, that incredible trilogy 00:14:37.259 --> 00:14:40.980 of albums. The Marble Index from 68. Desert Shore 00:14:40.980 --> 00:14:44.879 in 70, and The End in 74. He was almost like 00:14:44.879 --> 00:14:46.940 her musical interpreter. Totally. He took her 00:14:46.940 --> 00:14:49.840 harmonium, her unique, chilling voice, and surrounded 00:14:49.840 --> 00:14:51.740 them with this incredible array of instruments, 00:14:51.980 --> 00:14:55.840 viola, cello, piano, but used in really unusual, 00:14:55.919 --> 00:14:59.399 stark ways. The result is just hauntingly beautiful 00:14:59.399 --> 00:15:01.820 and completely unconventional. He also brought 00:15:01.820 --> 00:15:04.059 that arranging skill to this sort of Baroque 00:15:04.059 --> 00:15:06.759 folk scene, right? Nick Drake. Yeah, he played 00:15:06.759 --> 00:15:09.000 on Nick Drake's second album, Brighter Later, 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:11.679 from 1970. played viola and harpsichord on the 00:15:11.679 --> 00:15:14.419 track Fly, just adding these layers of classical 00:15:14.419 --> 00:15:16.679 sophistication that really contrasted beautifully 00:15:16.679 --> 00:15:19.379 with Drake's kind of melancholy folk style. And 00:15:19.379 --> 00:15:21.539 maybe most famously in that proto -punk vein, 00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:24.799 he produced the Modern Lover's debut album. Ah, 00:15:24.840 --> 00:15:27.740 yes. Jonathan Richman, an absolute cornerstone 00:15:27.740 --> 00:15:30.019 record for punk history. And it was so ahead 00:15:30.019 --> 00:15:32.360 of its time that Reprise, their original label, 00:15:32.460 --> 00:15:34.500 actually rejected it initially. Too weird for 00:15:34.500 --> 00:15:36.960 them. Apparently. It didn't get properly released 00:15:36.960 --> 00:15:39.460 until later on Berserkly Records. but by then 00:15:39.460 --> 00:15:42.100 its influence had already spread. Kale captured 00:15:42.100 --> 00:15:45.779 that minimalist, naive, but intense sound perfectly. 00:15:46.120 --> 00:15:48.039 And while all this production work is happening, 00:15:48.200 --> 00:15:51.049 he's also launching his own solo career. Right. 00:15:51.289 --> 00:15:54.649 His debut, Vintage Violence, came out in 1970. 00:15:55.169 --> 00:15:58.009 And surprisingly, it wasn't super experimental. 00:15:58.009 --> 00:16:01.389 It had these roots rock vibes. And critics were 00:16:01.389 --> 00:16:04.009 comparing it to acts like The Band or even Phil 00:16:04.009 --> 00:16:06.450 Spector's production. Quite lush and accessible, 00:16:06.690 --> 00:16:08.950 really. But the collisions, as you call them, 00:16:09.029 --> 00:16:10.730 they continued. He didn't stick with that sound 00:16:10.730 --> 00:16:14.059 for long. Not at all. Next up was Church of Anthrax 00:16:14.059 --> 00:16:16.759 in 71, a full -on experimental collaboration 00:16:16.759 --> 00:16:19.799 with the minimal music pioneer Terry Riley. So 00:16:19.799 --> 00:16:21.460 clearly he hadn't abandoned that side of things. 00:16:21.659 --> 00:16:24.000 Then after another art music detour with the 00:16:24.000 --> 00:16:27.620 Academy in Peril, he releases Paris 1919 in 1973. 00:16:28.279 --> 00:16:30.580 Now Paris 1919 often gets singled out as one 00:16:30.580 --> 00:16:32.779 of his absolute best, right? Why is that? I think 00:16:32.779 --> 00:16:35.460 because it's this temporary perfect balance point, 00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:39.200 a masterpiece of controlled chaos maybe. He went 00:16:39.200 --> 00:16:41.919 back to this really lush, orchestrated singer 00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:44.799 -songwriter sound, but the lyrics are incredibly 00:16:44.799 --> 00:16:47.580 dense, complex, referencing European history 00:16:47.580 --> 00:16:50.019 and politics. Almost deliberately obscure sometimes. 00:16:50.220 --> 00:16:52.620 Yeah. And he used the UCLA Symphony Orchestra, 00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:54.940 plus guys from Little Fee and the Crusaders. 00:16:54.980 --> 00:16:58.559 So musically, it's gorgeous, very formal, almost 00:16:58.559 --> 00:17:01.779 like a final nod to his classical training, right 00:17:01.779 --> 00:17:04.480 before things took a very, very dark turn. That 00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:06.940 accessible, almost beautiful sound in Stick Around. 00:17:07.180 --> 00:17:09.829 The Island Trilogy. That marks a huge shift, 00:17:09.910 --> 00:17:11.829 doesn't it? Driven by personal stuff. That's 00:17:11.829 --> 00:17:14.089 absolutely right. In 1974, Cale moves back to 00:17:14.089 --> 00:17:16.109 London. His second marriage is falling apart 00:17:16.109 --> 00:17:19.089 and he enters this period of just intense artistic 00:17:19.089 --> 00:17:22.170 volatility, maybe even instability. He puts out 00:17:22.170 --> 00:17:24.130 three albums back to back to back for Island 00:17:24.130 --> 00:17:27.890 Records. Fear in 74, Slow Dazzle in 75, and Helen 00:17:27.890 --> 00:17:31.089 of Troy, also 75. And the sound? Dark, threatening, 00:17:31.309 --> 00:17:33.569 full of barely suppressed aggression. That's 00:17:33.569 --> 00:17:35.269 the defining characteristic of those records. 00:17:35.470 --> 00:17:37.910 And the music itself starts to reflect that paranoia. 00:17:38.029 --> 00:17:41.170 aggression oh totally listen to tracks like leaving 00:17:41.170 --> 00:17:43.750 it up to you or especially fear is a man's best 00:17:43.750 --> 00:17:46.829 friend from the fear album they might start out 00:17:46.829 --> 00:17:48.970 sounding somewhat conventional almost like pop 00:17:48.970 --> 00:17:52.329 rock yeah but then the mood just curdles it gets 00:17:52.329 --> 00:17:55.269 paranoid confrontational and often the music 00:17:55.269 --> 00:17:58.730 itself just breaks down instrumentally into what 00:17:58.730 --> 00:18:02.130 one critic famously called it a morass of discordance 00:18:02.130 --> 00:18:05.089 and screaming wow Who is he working with then? 00:18:05.190 --> 00:18:07.630 Still high profile collaborator. Yeah, people 00:18:07.630 --> 00:18:10.430 like Phil Manzanera and Brian Eno from Roxy Music 00:18:10.430 --> 00:18:13.009 were involved. But even their kind of sophisticated 00:18:13.009 --> 00:18:15.730 art pop sensibilities couldn't really contain 00:18:15.730 --> 00:18:18.029 the sheer aggression Kale was channeling at that 00:18:18.029 --> 00:18:20.890 point. And this artistic shift. Lines up perfectly 00:18:20.890 --> 00:18:22.990 with the birth of punk rock in the UK. Yeah. 00:18:23.049 --> 00:18:25.609 His live shows became notorious. Absolutely legendary. 00:18:26.029 --> 00:18:28.930 Loud, abrasive, incredibly confrontational. They 00:18:28.930 --> 00:18:31.849 were pure performance art shock tactics, totally 00:18:31.849 --> 00:18:34.309 in sync with that burgeoning punk attitude. He 00:18:34.309 --> 00:18:36.430 started wearing that hockey mask on stage. Yep. 00:18:36.470 --> 00:18:39.390 The hockey goaltender mask. A really terrifying, 00:18:39.549 --> 00:18:41.670 aggressive look. And this was years before Jason 00:18:41.670 --> 00:18:44.349 Voorhees in the Friday the 13th movies made it 00:18:44.349 --> 00:18:46.930 famous. Kale did it first. And then there's the 00:18:46.930 --> 00:18:51.269 chicken incident. Ah, the infamous Croydon incident, 00:18:51.470 --> 00:18:54.750 yes. During a gig, he apparently took a dead 00:18:54.750 --> 00:18:58.109 chicken someone had thrown on stage and chopped 00:18:58.109 --> 00:18:59.970 its head off with a meat cleaver he happened 00:18:59.970 --> 00:19:02.670 to have. Oh my god, what was the reaction? Well, 00:19:02.710 --> 00:19:04.529 his drummer, who happened to be a vegetarian, 00:19:04.849 --> 00:19:07.369 was apparently so disgusted he just walked off 00:19:07.369 --> 00:19:09.910 stage mid -show and quit the band right then 00:19:09.910 --> 00:19:12.490 and there. Can't blame him, really. How did Cale 00:19:12.490 --> 00:19:15.910 react to that? His response? He recorded a track 00:19:15.910 --> 00:19:18.569 for his next EP called Chicken Shit, basically 00:19:18.569 --> 00:19:21.170 mocking the drummer for quitting. So you see, 00:19:21.210 --> 00:19:22.970 this wasn't just random recklessness. It felt 00:19:22.970 --> 00:19:26.009 like deliberately confrontational, boundary -pushing 00:19:26.009 --> 00:19:28.450 conceptual art bleeding into rock performance. 00:19:28.730 --> 00:19:31.490 And Kale himself later linked some of this extreme 00:19:31.490 --> 00:19:35.549 behavior, the paranoia, to heavy drug use. Specifically 00:19:35.549 --> 00:19:37.170 cocaine, right? Yeah, he was pretty open about 00:19:37.170 --> 00:19:39.349 that later. He said that in the 60s, drugs felt 00:19:39.349 --> 00:19:41.950 like a cool experiment. But in the 70s, he... 00:19:42.200 --> 00:19:44.660 got in over my head acknowledged it fueled some 00:19:44.660 --> 00:19:47.039 of the chaos but even amidst all that personal 00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:49.720 turmoil and stage craziness he kept producing 00:19:49.720 --> 00:19:52.400 other people incredibly yeah he produced the 00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:56.079 first single for sham 69 i don't wanna in 77 00:19:56.079 --> 00:19:59.559 punk pioneers and crucially he produced the debut 00:19:59.559 --> 00:20:03.000 album for squeeze in 1978 right the squeeze sessions 00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:05.460 that's another legendary story about his production 00:20:05.460 --> 00:20:07.819 style totally apparently he came in listened 00:20:07.819 --> 00:20:10.119 to all the songs they prepared and then told 00:20:10.119 --> 00:20:12.319 them to throw every single one out and write 00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:14.480 completely new material right there under pressure. 00:20:14.619 --> 00:20:17.519 Talk about tough love. Pushing them to find something 00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:20.259 new. Exactly. Demanding creativity on the spot. 00:20:20.359 --> 00:20:23.400 And somehow, amidst all this, he even had a minor 00:20:23.400 --> 00:20:26.460 pop chart hit himself in 77, playing keyboards 00:20:26.460 --> 00:20:28.960 on Julie Covington's cover of Alice Cooper's 00:20:28.960 --> 00:20:31.380 Only Women Bleed. It got to number 12 in the 00:20:31.380 --> 00:20:33.839 UK. So even then, he could still tap into that 00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:36.160 accessible arranging skill when he wanted to. 00:20:36.509 --> 00:20:39.190 It seems so. But the decade really culminated, 00:20:39.190 --> 00:20:41.269 in terms of that aggression, with the live album 00:20:41.269 --> 00:20:43.890 Sabotage Live, recorded at CBGB in New York in 00:20:43.890 --> 00:20:47.410 1979. It's just pure kale from that confrontational 00:20:47.410 --> 00:20:50.769 mid -70s period. All new songs, tackling politics, 00:20:51.049 --> 00:20:53.490 militarism, paranoia head -on. It's like the 00:20:53.490 --> 00:20:56.319 sonic document of all that stage brutality. Okay, 00:20:56.359 --> 00:20:58.980 so we move into the 1980s. After the darkness 00:20:58.980 --> 00:21:01.980 and confrontation of the late 70s, we see Kale 00:21:01.980 --> 00:21:04.160 making a bit of a U -turn, actually attempting 00:21:04.160 --> 00:21:06.839 to get some real commercial success. Yeah, it's 00:21:06.839 --> 00:21:09.240 a really fascinating period because you see this 00:21:09.240 --> 00:21:12.160 conflict playing out. He clearly wanted the recognition, 00:21:12.579 --> 00:21:14.720 maybe the financial rewards, of being a more 00:21:14.720 --> 00:21:17.779 commercial artist. Right. But temperamentally, 00:21:17.779 --> 00:21:20.440 he just couldn't seem to stop being this experimental, 00:21:20.759 --> 00:21:24.000 sometimes abrasive, radical. His seventh solo 00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:27.200 album, Honey Sweet from 1981, was on A &M Records, 00:21:27.420 --> 00:21:30.099 a major label. And he worked with producer Mike 00:21:30.099 --> 00:21:32.559 Thorne, who was known for a more polished sound. 00:21:32.759 --> 00:21:34.700 Trying to smooth out the edges. Seems like it. 00:21:34.740 --> 00:21:36.519 And that story about the album cover art is just 00:21:36.519 --> 00:21:38.420 so telling, isn't it? The Andy Warhol cover. 00:21:38.579 --> 00:21:42.490 Yeah. Warhol provides this cool, minimalist black 00:21:42.490 --> 00:21:45.869 and white design, and Kael decides to colorize 00:21:45.869 --> 00:21:48.230 it himself against Warhol's explicit wishes. 00:21:48.509 --> 00:21:50.849 Why? Just to make it seem more commercially appealing? 00:21:51.130 --> 00:21:53.190 Presumably. Trying to make it poppier, brighter. 00:21:53.450 --> 00:21:55.750 Yeah. But it was a compromise on the art, and 00:21:55.750 --> 00:21:57.490 ultimately the commercial breakthrough didn't 00:21:57.490 --> 00:21:59.289 really happen anyway. His relationship with A 00:21:59.289 --> 00:22:01.490 &M didn't last long. And he tried again later 00:22:01.490 --> 00:22:03.789 in the decade, didn't he? Artificial Intelligence 00:22:03.789 --> 00:22:06.910 in 85. Right, on Beggar's Banquet. That was an 00:22:06.910 --> 00:22:09.690 even more direct pop effort. Lots of synthesizers, 00:22:09.710 --> 00:22:12.029 drum machines, very characteristic of the mid 00:22:12.029 --> 00:22:15.150 -80s sound. He co -wrote the tracks with Larry 00:22:15.150 --> 00:22:17.269 Ratson Sloman. Did that one work commercially? 00:22:17.529 --> 00:22:20.559 Not hugely, no. But tracks like Dying on the 00:22:20.559 --> 00:22:23.140 Vine from that album are really compelling. It 00:22:23.140 --> 00:22:25.180 showed he could craft this quite sophisticated, 00:22:25.380 --> 00:22:28.519 if maybe a little cold, 80s pop sound. So why 00:22:28.519 --> 00:22:30.339 do you think he consistently struggled to get 00:22:30.339 --> 00:22:32.759 that big commercial hit, even when he was actively 00:22:32.759 --> 00:22:35.859 trying, working with producers like Thorne, making 00:22:35.859 --> 00:22:38.180 these artistic compromises? Well, listening back, 00:22:38.339 --> 00:22:40.859 the sources kind of suggest that his inherent, 00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:43.619 maybe inescapable dissonance was just too strong 00:22:43.619 --> 00:22:46.339 to completely suppress. Even on his most pop 00:22:46.339 --> 00:22:48.240 -oriented records, there's often this sort of 00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:50.559 icy. see distance in his voice or an underlying 00:22:50.559 --> 00:22:53.039 tension in the arrangement. Something unsettling. 00:22:53.140 --> 00:22:55.200 Yeah, something that prevents the music from 00:22:55.200 --> 00:22:58.400 just relaxing into easy, comfortable pop. I mean, 00:22:58.420 --> 00:23:00.559 he'd spent the best part of 20 years actively 00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:03.400 cultivating chaos and disruption. Maybe turning 00:23:03.400 --> 00:23:05.700 that off completely just wasn't possible for 00:23:05.700 --> 00:23:07.700 him. And you have to contrast those attempts 00:23:07.700 --> 00:23:10.440 at commercial pop with the real artistic statement 00:23:10.440 --> 00:23:13.279 he made in the 80s, which was anything but commercial. 00:23:13.619 --> 00:23:18.079 Music for a new society from 1982. Ah, yes. On 00:23:18.079 --> 00:23:20.960 ZE Records. This is where the raw artistic honesty 00:23:20.960 --> 00:23:23.619 just completely overshadows any commercial impulse. 00:23:24.079 --> 00:23:27.819 Music for a new society is, well, it's sparse, 00:23:27.880 --> 00:23:30.680 it's harrowing, it's bleak. How is the sound 00:23:30.680 --> 00:23:32.680 different? The instrumentation is incredibly 00:23:32.680 --> 00:23:35.259 minimal. Often it's just Kelly's piano, maybe 00:23:35.259 --> 00:23:37.599 a stark viola line, his voice treated with effects, 00:23:37.819 --> 00:23:39.980 lots of reverb creating this huge empty sonic 00:23:39.980 --> 00:23:43.220 space. It somehow blends the kind of vocal refinement 00:23:43.220 --> 00:23:45.420 you heard on Paris 1919 with the psychological 00:23:45.420 --> 00:23:47.799 threat of those island records, but just stripped 00:23:47.799 --> 00:23:50.039 bare. And critically acclaimed. Universally. 00:23:50.140 --> 00:23:52.559 Often called understated and perhaps a masterpiece. 00:23:52.759 --> 00:23:55.299 It really sounds like an artist grappling, very 00:23:55.299 --> 00:23:57.240 honestly, with profound depression, maybe with 00:23:57.240 --> 00:24:00.869 the fallout from all that 70s chaos. Projectory 00:24:00.869 --> 00:24:03.450 shifts again, mid -decade. And this time it's 00:24:03.450 --> 00:24:05.839 triggered by something personal. Right. The birth 00:24:05.839 --> 00:24:09.220 of his daughter, Eden Kael, in 1985. He had her 00:24:09.220 --> 00:24:12.180 with his third wife, Rize Roshami. And apparently 00:24:12.180 --> 00:24:15.160 becoming a father really inspired him to, well, 00:24:15.220 --> 00:24:17.900 step back, take a much needed break from recording 00:24:17.900 --> 00:24:19.960 and performing for a while. So when he comes 00:24:19.960 --> 00:24:22.240 back, what's the sound? His comeback album was 00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:25.240 Words for the Dying in 1989. And it signals this 00:24:25.240 --> 00:24:27.980 really definitive return to his classical and 00:24:27.980 --> 00:24:31.640 more literary roots. Brian Eno produced it. And 00:24:31.640 --> 00:24:34.059 the album is mainly these settings of poems by 00:24:34.059 --> 00:24:36.690 Dylan Thomas. Dylan Thomas, the Welsh poet. Back 00:24:36.690 --> 00:24:39.490 to his roots. Exactly. And significantly, he'd 00:24:39.490 --> 00:24:42.309 actually written the music back in 1982, specifically 00:24:42.309 --> 00:24:44.910 as a response to the Falklands War. So again, 00:24:45.029 --> 00:24:47.250 it's Cale using high art, using classical and 00:24:47.250 --> 00:24:49.849 poetic forms to address political trauma. Then 00:24:49.849 --> 00:24:51.990 the 90s kick off with this huge cultural moment, 00:24:52.069 --> 00:24:54.690 the end of that long, what, 18 -year estrangement 00:24:54.690 --> 00:24:57.470 between him and Lou Reed. Yeah. After Andy Warhol 00:24:57.470 --> 00:25:00.190 died in 87, Cale and Reed collaborated on that 00:25:00.190 --> 00:25:02.950 song cycle, Songs for Drella, released in 1990, 00:25:03.289 --> 00:25:06.839 a tribute to Warhol, their mentor. deal artistically 00:25:06.839 --> 00:25:10.039 and symbolic, too. Huge. Although, interestingly, 00:25:10.359 --> 00:25:12.980 Kahle later revealed it wasn't all smooth sailing. 00:25:13.359 --> 00:25:15.819 He apparently kind of resented letting Reid take 00:25:15.819 --> 00:25:18.400 the lead on the project, which just highlights, 00:25:18.420 --> 00:25:20.680 again, that core tension, right? The push and 00:25:20.680 --> 00:25:23.279 pull between Kale's experimental side and Reed's 00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:25.799 more narrative, structured approach was still 00:25:25.799 --> 00:25:27.759 there, even when they were collaborating on a 00:25:27.759 --> 00:25:30.160 tribute. But that collaboration did pave the 00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:32.079 way for the actual Velvet Underground reunion. 00:25:32.339 --> 00:25:35.359 It did. They reformed first for a benefit show 00:25:35.359 --> 00:25:38.119 in Paris in 1990 and then did a full reunion 00:25:38.119 --> 00:25:41.359 tour in 1993, which was documented on the live 00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:44.819 album Live MCMXC3. Now this brings us to something 00:25:44.819 --> 00:25:47.880 else from the 90s. possibly Kale's most widespread 00:25:47.880 --> 00:25:50.740 cultural contribution, even if people don't always 00:25:50.740 --> 00:25:54.019 realize it's him, his version of Leonard Cohen's 00:25:54.019 --> 00:25:57.019 Hallelujah. Ah, yes, Hallelujah. This really 00:25:57.019 --> 00:25:58.819 does raise that fascinating question. How did 00:25:58.819 --> 00:26:01.500 his cover version basically rewrite the history 00:26:01.500 --> 00:26:03.339 of that song? So walk us through it. He recorded 00:26:03.339 --> 00:26:06.599 it for a tribute album. Right. A 1991 tribute 00:26:06.599 --> 00:26:09.859 album called I'm Your Fan. Now, the crucial thing 00:26:09.859 --> 00:26:11.799 to remember is that Cohen's original version 00:26:11.799 --> 00:26:15.180 from his 1984 album, Various Positions, well, 00:26:15.299 --> 00:26:17.140 it hadn't really caught on much. It was recorded 00:26:17.140 --> 00:26:20.279 in 68 time, kind of a waltz feel. Okay, so what 00:26:20.279 --> 00:26:22.339 did Cale do differently? Cale took the song, 00:26:22.559 --> 00:26:25.039 slowed it right down, changed the time signature 00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:27.680 to a more standard 44, and arranged it just for 00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:30.680 piano and voice. Crucially, he also selected 00:26:30.680 --> 00:26:33.339 a very specific set of verses from the many that 00:26:33.339 --> 00:26:35.910 Cohen had actually written for the song. So Kale 00:26:35.910 --> 00:26:38.990 essentially reconstructed the song's structure 00:26:38.990 --> 00:26:41.490 and its emotional core for a wider audience. 00:26:41.670 --> 00:26:44.109 That's exactly it. He found the emotional accessibility 00:26:44.109 --> 00:26:47.769 in it. his choice of verses, that stately, incredibly 00:26:47.769 --> 00:26:50.509 heartfelt piano arrangement that became the blueprint. 00:26:50.670 --> 00:26:52.589 That's the structure and the feeling that almost 00:26:52.589 --> 00:26:54.769 every subsequent cover version, including Jeff 00:26:54.769 --> 00:26:57.509 Buckley's incredibly famous one from 1994, was 00:26:57.509 --> 00:26:59.490 based on. So without John Cale's interpretation. 00:26:59.890 --> 00:27:01.910 Hallelujah might very well have just remained 00:27:01.910 --> 00:27:04.630 a relatively obscure Leonard Cohen deep cut. 00:27:04.910 --> 00:27:07.410 Cale is the one who really unlocked its potential 00:27:07.410 --> 00:27:09.549 and turned it into the global standard it is 00:27:09.549 --> 00:27:12.069 today. Amazing. He kept busy through the 90s 00:27:12.069 --> 00:27:14.789 too, right? Collaborations, another solo album. 00:27:14.910 --> 00:27:17.289 Yeah, he did a spoken word duet with Suzanne 00:27:17.289 --> 00:27:21.109 Vega on an album by Hector Zazu in 94. And in 00:27:21.109 --> 00:27:24.190 1996, he released Walking on Locusts, his only 00:27:24.190 --> 00:27:27.349 solo studio album of that decade. Had some cool 00:27:27.349 --> 00:27:29.450 guests. David Byrne was on it, and it featured 00:27:29.450 --> 00:27:31.950 a reunion with Mo Tucker on drums for a track. 00:27:32.130 --> 00:27:34.509 And then finally, proper recognition from the 00:27:34.509 --> 00:27:38.019 establishment. Yes. Belatedly, perhaps. But in 00:27:38.019 --> 00:27:40.119 1996, he was inducted into the Rock and Roll 00:27:40.119 --> 00:27:42.140 Hall of Fame as a member of the Velvet Underground. 00:27:42.440 --> 00:27:45.059 And at the ceremony, Kale, Reed and Tucker performed 00:27:45.059 --> 00:27:47.299 together one last time. They did a song called 00:27:47.299 --> 00:27:49.720 Last Night I Said Goodbye to My Friend, dedicated 00:27:49.720 --> 00:27:51.940 to Sterling Morrison, who had passed away just 00:27:51.940 --> 00:27:54.700 the year before. Moving into the 21st century, 00:27:54.920 --> 00:27:57.200 Kale shows absolutely no signs of slowing down. 00:27:57.460 --> 00:27:59.880 Instead, he just adapts again, doesn't he? Bringing 00:27:59.880 --> 00:28:01.920 that aesthetic of collision of mixing things 00:28:01.920 --> 00:28:05.359 up into the digital age. The 2000s see him really 00:28:05.359 --> 00:28:08.200 embracing electronica. Yeah, definitely. He signed 00:28:08.200 --> 00:28:10.880 with EMI in 2003 and his sound shifted again. 00:28:11.299 --> 00:28:14.539 You can really hear the influence of modern electronica 00:28:14.539 --> 00:28:17.319 and alternative rock creeping in. The album Hobo 00:28:17.319 --> 00:28:19.400 Sapiens from that year was co -produced with 00:28:19.400 --> 00:28:21.619 Nick Franklin, who's part of the electronic duo 00:28:21.619 --> 00:28:24.500 Lemon Jelly. So actively seeking out contemporary 00:28:24.500 --> 00:28:26.579 collaborators. Absolutely. Showing he's still 00:28:26.579 --> 00:28:29.359 listening, still absorbing. That continued on 00:28:29.359 --> 00:28:32.960 the next album, Black Acetate, in 2005. He demonstrated 00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:35.920 how those drone techniques he mastered way back. 00:28:36.170 --> 00:28:38.890 could translate really effectively into electronic 00:28:38.890 --> 00:28:41.369 textures. And he kept producing other artists, 00:28:41.450 --> 00:28:43.930 too. Oh yeah, kept his hand in. Notably, he worked 00:28:43.930 --> 00:28:45.849 with the Austin singer -songwriter Alejandro 00:28:45.849 --> 00:28:48.869 Escovedo on his album The Boxing Mirror. That 00:28:48.869 --> 00:28:50.890 project kind of let him bridge his own experimental 00:28:50.890 --> 00:28:53.970 side with Escovedo's more roots rock sound. The 00:28:53.970 --> 00:28:55.950 later part of that decade seemed more about looking 00:28:55.950 --> 00:28:58.529 back, though. Retrospectives, performing old 00:28:58.529 --> 00:29:02.180 albums. It did, but often with a new angle. Circus 00:29:02.180 --> 00:29:05.819 Live, that live album from 2007. It was a retrospective 00:29:05.819 --> 00:29:07.779 covering his whole career, but featuring all 00:29:07.779 --> 00:29:10.279 new arrangements of the songs. And then, yeah, 00:29:10.359 --> 00:29:13.720 he spent a few years around 2009 to 2011 performing 00:29:13.720 --> 00:29:17.680 Paris 1919 live in its entirety all over the 00:29:17.680 --> 00:29:20.420 world. Revisiting that early masterpiece, what 00:29:20.420 --> 00:29:22.500 do you make of that? It felt like maybe an artist 00:29:22.500 --> 00:29:24.940 coming to terms with his own history, you know, 00:29:24.940 --> 00:29:27.579 looking back and reassessing these major works 00:29:27.579 --> 00:29:30.259 from his past, perhaps with the wisdom of age. 00:29:30.500 --> 00:29:32.059 He also got that. that interesting residency 00:29:32.059 --> 00:29:34.980 in Tasmania. Right. He was appointed the first 00:29:34.980 --> 00:29:37.779 eminent art in residence, or ER, at the Mona 00:29:37.779 --> 00:29:40.619 Foma Festival down there in 2010. Brian Ritchie 00:29:40.619 --> 00:29:43.380 from the Violent Femmes curated that. And Cale 00:29:43.380 --> 00:29:45.359 used the opportunity to present some multimedia 00:29:45.359 --> 00:29:48.380 work, including one piece called Didio Du, meaning 00:29:48.380 --> 00:29:50.619 Dark Days, which apparently focused a lot on 00:29:50.619 --> 00:29:52.559 his relationship with the Welsh language, still 00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:55.259 exploring those roots. Incredibly, he's still 00:29:55.259 --> 00:29:58.500 putting out vital new music now, well into his 00:29:58.500 --> 00:30:01.250 80s. He's refusing to just... be a legacy act 00:30:01.250 --> 00:30:04.230 totally prolific shifty adventures in nookie 00:30:04.230 --> 00:30:07.470 wood came out in 2012 and that had a track featuring 00:30:07.470 --> 00:30:10.299 danger mouse Again, collaborating with really 00:30:10.299 --> 00:30:13.279 current influential producers. Still curious, 00:30:13.359 --> 00:30:15.740 still experimenting. And he even revisited music 00:30:15.740 --> 00:30:17.660 for A New Society, didn't he? Yeah, that was 00:30:17.660 --> 00:30:21.880 fascinating. In 2016, he released MFANS, which 00:30:21.880 --> 00:30:24.019 wasn't just a remaster. It was completely new, 00:30:24.059 --> 00:30:26.259 re -recorded, often radically different versions 00:30:26.259 --> 00:30:29.319 of those incredibly bleak songs from the 82 album. 00:30:29.539 --> 00:30:32.390 Why revisit such a dark period? It's hard to 00:30:32.390 --> 00:30:34.210 say for sure, but it suggests maybe this need 00:30:34.210 --> 00:30:37.029 to reinterpret his own past traumas using the 00:30:37.029 --> 00:30:39.750 sonic tools and perspective he has now in the 00:30:39.750 --> 00:30:41.710 21st century. Really interesting psychological 00:30:41.710 --> 00:30:44.029 move for an artist. And the collaborations continue 00:30:44.029 --> 00:30:46.440 right up to the present. Yep. worked with the 00:30:46.440 --> 00:30:49.519 Welsh electronic artist Kelly Lee Owens on her 00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:52.579 track Corner of My Sky in 2020, and his own recent 00:30:52.579 --> 00:30:54.640 albums are just astonishing for someone his age, 00:30:54.700 --> 00:30:57.859 Mercy in 2023, and then Poptical Illusion just 00:30:57.859 --> 00:31:00.759 this year, 2024. Still blending style, still 00:31:00.759 --> 00:31:03.279 using electronics, experimental textures, but 00:31:03.279 --> 00:31:05.500 with this mature, reflective songwriting voice. 00:31:05.740 --> 00:31:08.200 And connecting back to that intense 70s period 00:31:08.200 --> 00:31:10.680 we talked about, there was that song Nightcrawling 00:31:10.680 --> 00:31:15.009 from 2022. Ah, yeah, Nightcrawling. That's a 00:31:15.009 --> 00:31:17.289 direct look back, isn't it? A reminiscence about 00:31:17.289 --> 00:31:19.869 his friendship with David Bowie during that really 00:31:19.869 --> 00:31:22.549 volatile mid to late 70s period in New York. 00:31:22.710 --> 00:31:25.029 What does the song capture about that time? It 00:31:25.029 --> 00:31:27.430 paints this picture of him and Bowie just running 00:31:27.430 --> 00:31:29.730 the streets, as he puts it, sometimes getting 00:31:29.730 --> 00:31:31.769 so high or wired they couldn't keep a thought 00:31:31.769 --> 00:31:34.130 in our heads. It's a reminder that these now 00:31:34.130 --> 00:31:37.109 iconic figures were once just young, experimental, 00:31:37.349 --> 00:31:40.789 maybe quite damaged friends navigating this intense, 00:31:41.009 --> 00:31:44.049 chaotic scene together. And those shared experiences 00:31:44.079 --> 00:31:46.640 Experiences, however messy, were clearly fuel 00:31:46.640 --> 00:31:49.160 for the art they made then, and maybe even for 00:31:49.160 --> 00:31:51.299 the art he's still making now. And his status 00:31:51.299 --> 00:31:54.099 is, of course, totally cemented now. Yeah. Beyond 00:31:54.099 --> 00:31:56.279 the Rock Hall induction. Right. He was appointed 00:31:56.279 --> 00:31:58.000 an Officer of the Order of the British Empire, 00:31:58.299 --> 00:32:01.619 an OBE, back in the 2010 Birthday Honors List, 00:32:01.859 --> 00:32:04.380 for services to music and the arts. Official 00:32:04.380 --> 00:32:07.039 recognition from his home country. Now, to really 00:32:07.039 --> 00:32:09.799 understand the man behind this incredibly varied, 00:32:10.039 --> 00:32:12.819 often confrontational art, we probably need to 00:32:12.819 --> 00:32:15.000 touch briefly on his personal life and some of 00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:17.180 the struggles he faced. They seem pretty tightly 00:32:17.180 --> 00:32:19.319 linked to his output, especially in the 70s. 00:32:19.359 --> 00:32:21.940 Yeah, context is important. Briefly, on the marriage 00:32:21.940 --> 00:32:24.500 front, he was married three times. First to the 00:32:24.500 --> 00:32:26.759 American fashion designer Betsy Johnson from 00:32:26.759 --> 00:32:29.680 68 to 71. Right, very much of that Warhol scene 00:32:29.680 --> 00:32:33.240 era. Exactly. Then to Cynthia, Cindy Wells. She 00:32:33.240 --> 00:32:35.740 was known as Miss Cindy from the GTO. It was 00:32:35.740 --> 00:32:37.819 Frank Zappa's kind of performance art group that 00:32:37.819 --> 00:32:41.420 was 71 to 75, right during that intense island 00:32:41.420 --> 00:32:44.579 records period. Okay. And finally, to Rize Irishelmi 00:32:44.579 --> 00:32:48.400 from 1981 to 1997. And she's the mother of his 00:32:48.400 --> 00:32:50.900 daughter, Eden. And the journey was substance 00:32:50.900 --> 00:32:53.519 use. That seems pretty critical to understanding 00:32:53.519 --> 00:32:55.799 some of the extremes in his life and work. It 00:32:55.799 --> 00:32:58.069 does seem to be. The sources mention he actually 00:32:58.069 --> 00:33:01.109 had severe bronchial issues as a child and a 00:33:01.109 --> 00:33:03.890 doctor prescribed him opiates for it. He apparently 00:33:03.890 --> 00:33:05.849 became reliant on the medicine just to get to 00:33:05.849 --> 00:33:08.930 sleep. As a child. Wow. Yeah. One biographer 00:33:08.930 --> 00:33:11.630 called that early dependence a formative experience, 00:33:11.869 --> 00:33:14.390 suggesting it might have set up a kind of problematic 00:33:14.390 --> 00:33:17.029 relationship with medication and intoxication 00:33:17.029 --> 00:33:19.750 right from the start. And that unfortunately 00:33:19.750 --> 00:33:23.250 continued into the New York scene later on. Tragically, 00:33:23.269 --> 00:33:26.759 yes. He got heavily involved in the 60s and 70s 00:33:26.759 --> 00:33:29.220 drug scene there. Cocaine became his main drug 00:33:29.220 --> 00:33:31.940 of choice. He himself put it very clearly later. 00:33:32.279 --> 00:33:35.180 In the 60s, for me, drugs were a cool experiment. 00:33:35.539 --> 00:33:38.559 In the 70s, I got in over my head. Very stark 00:33:38.559 --> 00:33:40.599 admission. And he felt it actually hurt his music 00:33:40.599 --> 00:33:43.440 in the 80s. He did. He felt the addiction was 00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:45.880 negatively affecting his output, which is a powerful 00:33:45.880 --> 00:33:48.569 thing for an artist to admit. He made the conscious 00:33:48.569 --> 00:33:51.190 choice to get clean, apparently prompted by some 00:33:51.190 --> 00:33:54.069 embarrassing concert experiences, but crucially 00:33:54.069 --> 00:33:57.470 also by the birth of his daughter in 1985. Wanting 00:33:57.470 --> 00:33:59.690 to be present father seems to have been a major 00:33:59.690 --> 00:34:02.289 catalyst for him seeking sobriety. And he's used 00:34:02.289 --> 00:34:04.470 that experience positively since then. Yeah, 00:34:04.549 --> 00:34:07.809 demonstrating that full arc. In 2009, he hosted 00:34:07.809 --> 00:34:10.949 a documentary called Heroin, Whales, and Me. 00:34:11.440 --> 00:34:13.400 It was aimed at raising awareness about heroin 00:34:13.400 --> 00:34:15.659 addiction and drug problems back in his native 00:34:15.659 --> 00:34:18.599 Wales. He used his own history very openly to 00:34:18.599 --> 00:34:20.800 try and connect with people facing similar struggles 00:34:20.800 --> 00:34:23.820 from dependence to active sobriety and public 00:34:23.820 --> 00:34:27.039 responsibility. So as we wrap up and look back 00:34:27.039 --> 00:34:29.039 across this huge career, I mean, John Cale's 00:34:29.039 --> 00:34:31.570 story is just one of. Staggering breath, isn't 00:34:31.570 --> 00:34:34.090 it? Six decades. We've gone from the classical 00:34:34.090 --> 00:34:36.690 discipline of his youth in Wales to the radical 00:34:36.690 --> 00:34:39.469 dissonant noise of the Velvet Underground, his 00:34:39.469 --> 00:34:43.130 absolutely crucial role as a producer for proto 00:34:43.130 --> 00:34:47.110 -punk bands, that dark, raw, brutal honesty of 00:34:47.110 --> 00:34:49.730 his 70s solo albums. Yeah, unforgettable stuff. 00:34:49.969 --> 00:34:51.829 And right through to his adaptation to electronic 00:34:51.829 --> 00:34:54.610 in the 21st century and his continued vitality 00:34:54.610 --> 00:34:56.969 today. He really is the ultimate learner, isn't 00:34:56.969 --> 00:34:59.030 he? Someone who just constantly absorbed information, 00:34:59.369 --> 00:35:02.190 absorbed sounds, synthesized them, and then reapplied 00:35:02.190 --> 00:35:04.150 that knowledge across the entire musical map. 00:35:04.329 --> 00:35:06.429 He made sure he never stayed in one comfortable 00:35:06.429 --> 00:35:08.849 spot long enough for anyone to predict what he'd 00:35:08.849 --> 00:35:11.960 do next. Refused to be pinned down. Exactly. 00:35:12.019 --> 00:35:14.119 His whole body of work is just this incredible 00:35:14.119 --> 00:35:17.280 case study in critical thinking and questioning 00:35:17.280 --> 00:35:19.699 assumptions about what music is supposed to sound 00:35:19.699 --> 00:35:22.320 like, what it should be. He simply refused to 00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:24.320 accept the existing boundaries. And that refusal 00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:26.960 is probably why he's still so relevant, still 00:35:26.960 --> 00:35:29.659 making compelling music in his 80s. I think so. 00:35:29.820 --> 00:35:31.960 And, you know, thinking back to that mid 70s 00:35:31.960 --> 00:35:34.719 period, the one Cale sings about in Nightcrawling, 00:35:34.780 --> 00:35:37.099 him and Bowie running the streets of New York, 00:35:37.179 --> 00:35:39.039 struggling to keep a thought in their heads. 00:35:39.360 --> 00:35:41.900 It does raise a really interesting final thought 00:35:41.900 --> 00:35:45.219 for you to mull over. OK. We know the documented 00:35:45.219 --> 00:35:48.650 output from those years was often dark. confrontational 00:35:48.650 --> 00:35:51.769 fueled by chaos and drugs but what about the 00:35:51.769 --> 00:35:54.929 undocumented stuff what kinds of truly radical 00:35:54.929 --> 00:35:58.269 maybe half -formed musical ideas what kinds of 00:35:58.269 --> 00:36:00.530 wild conversations and artistic theories might 00:36:00.530 --> 00:36:02.710 have just evaporated on those late night coke 00:36:02.710 --> 00:36:06.030 -fueled runs been lost forever ideas too fleeting 00:36:06.030 --> 00:36:08.389 or chaotic to even capture at the time exactly 00:36:08.389 --> 00:36:12.789 and then how did those undocumented chaotic experiences 00:36:12.789 --> 00:36:15.389 eventually somehow get distilled down how did 00:36:15.389 --> 00:36:18.239 they end up fueling the sophistic often quite 00:36:18.239 --> 00:36:20.539 controlled, electronically influenced compositions 00:36:20.539 --> 00:36:22.440 he's making today. It's like he found a way to 00:36:22.440 --> 00:36:25.079 turn that past destruction and chaos into a completely 00:36:25.079 --> 00:36:26.980 new form of artistic discipline, almost a new 00:36:26.980 --> 00:36:29.260 classicism. That journey from chaos to composed 00:36:29.260 --> 00:36:31.239 legacy, that's a powerful connection to think 00:36:31.239 --> 00:36:31.519 about.