WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.540 Welcome to the Deep Dive. We're here to take 00:00:01.540 --> 00:00:03.940 these huge, often really complicated stories 00:00:03.940 --> 00:00:06.719 and sort of break them down so you walk away 00:00:06.719 --> 00:00:08.359 really understanding what's going on. And today 00:00:08.359 --> 00:00:11.080 our mission is, well, it's a big one. We're diving 00:00:11.080 --> 00:00:15.000 into the, let's say, four decade career of Courtney, 00:00:15.099 --> 00:00:17.640 love Courtney Michelle Harrison. Singer, songwriter, 00:00:17.780 --> 00:00:19.960 guitarist, actress, she's done a lot. And the 00:00:19.960 --> 00:00:21.379 core thing we need to unpack, the reason we've 00:00:21.379 --> 00:00:23.940 got like stacks of sources here from music mags 00:00:23.940 --> 00:00:26.679 to court documents is this incredible duality. 00:00:27.019 --> 00:00:30.050 How does one person become this absolute icon 00:00:30.050 --> 00:00:33.469 of female -fronted alt -rock. You know, NME called 00:00:33.469 --> 00:00:35.170 her one of the most influential from the 90s 00:00:35.170 --> 00:00:37.509 to 2020, while at the same time navigating just 00:00:37.509 --> 00:00:39.369 immense public turmoil. We're talking personal 00:00:39.369 --> 00:00:41.729 stuff, legal battles, addiction. It's constant. 00:00:42.049 --> 00:00:43.890 Platinum album is Golden Globe nods, but always 00:00:43.890 --> 00:00:46.969 this shadow. That duality, that tension, it's 00:00:46.969 --> 00:00:48.770 exactly what makes her so fascinating and honestly 00:00:48.770 --> 00:00:51.070 so difficult to pin down. You really can't just 00:00:51.070 --> 00:00:52.929 look at the music or the acting in isolation. 00:00:53.409 --> 00:00:56.920 To really get it, you have to juggle, like, Five 00:00:56.920 --> 00:00:58.500 different threads at once. There's the chaotic 00:00:58.500 --> 00:01:01.259 childhood, which was seriously itinerant. Her 00:01:01.259 --> 00:01:03.640 jump into the whole punk scene. Then, obviously, 00:01:03.780 --> 00:01:06.700 the massive shadow of Kurt Cobain. And then the 00:01:06.700 --> 00:01:09.060 acting career, which was surprisingly successful, 00:01:09.280 --> 00:01:11.900 critically speaking. Yeah. And woven through 00:01:11.900 --> 00:01:13.500 all of that, the constant cycle of addiction, 00:01:13.719 --> 00:01:15.719 legal troubles. It all feeds into the public 00:01:15.719 --> 00:01:18.519 image and into the art itself. She often turned 00:01:18.519 --> 00:01:20.239 it into material. Right. It's less a straight 00:01:20.239 --> 00:01:23.049 biography and more like... like a study in how 00:01:23.049 --> 00:01:26.269 you can weaponize chaos almost turn it into cultural 00:01:26.269 --> 00:01:28.989 impact okay let's unpack that history starting 00:01:28.989 --> 00:01:30.909 right at the beginning because those seeds were 00:01:30.909 --> 00:01:33.370 definitely planted early hashtag tag tag too 00:01:33.370 --> 00:01:37.469 the formative unconventional years 1964 1987 00:01:37.469 --> 00:01:40.390 so courtney michelle harrison born san francisco 00:01:40.390 --> 00:01:44.349 1964 and her family background i mean it immediately 00:01:44.349 --> 00:01:47.090 puts her right into that 60s counterculture world. 00:01:47.209 --> 00:01:49.909 Her mom, Linda Carroll, a psychotherapist. Her 00:01:49.909 --> 00:01:53.450 dad, Hank Harrison, a publisher, but also famously 00:01:53.450 --> 00:01:55.609 road manager for The Grateful Dead. Yeah, it 00:01:55.609 --> 00:01:56.969 connects her directly to the heart of that whole 00:01:56.969 --> 00:01:59.170 scene. I mean, seriously, counterculture royalty 00:01:59.170 --> 00:02:01.450 is not an exaggeration. Phil Lesh from The Dead, 00:02:01.549 --> 00:02:03.629 her godfather. And then her mom's side connects 00:02:03.629 --> 00:02:05.890 her to the novelist Paula Fox, another figure 00:02:05.890 --> 00:02:08.830 with this really complex artistic kind of public 00:02:08.830 --> 00:02:10.849 family history. So it's this deep well of creativity, 00:02:11.189 --> 00:02:13.939 eccentricity, maybe instability too. But that 00:02:13.939 --> 00:02:16.680 creative environment turns sour pretty fast. 00:02:17.000 --> 00:02:20.120 Parents divorced in 70? And the custody stuff? 00:02:20.379 --> 00:02:24.610 Wow. It wasn't just messy. It was deeply disturbing 00:02:24.610 --> 00:02:27.449 based on the records. We're talking serious allegations 00:02:27.449 --> 00:02:30.550 documented in court. Her mom and one of her dad's 00:02:30.550 --> 00:02:32.330 girlfriends testified that Hank had allegedly 00:02:32.330 --> 00:02:34.810 dosed Courtney with LSD as a toddler. Which Hank 00:02:34.810 --> 00:02:37.669 absolutely denied vehemently. But based on everything 00:02:37.669 --> 00:02:40.189 else, he lost custody. I mean, that level of 00:02:40.189 --> 00:02:42.370 alleged early trauma right there in court documents. 00:02:42.509 --> 00:02:44.849 Yeah. It just sets a grim tone for her childhood. 00:02:44.849 --> 00:02:47.039 Yeah. So her mom takes her to Oregon, Markola, 00:02:47.180 --> 00:02:50.419 and Courtney later described it as this gender 00:02:50.419 --> 00:02:53.240 -free household surrounded by, in her words, 00:02:53.379 --> 00:02:56.120 hairy, wangly -ass hippies doing gestalt therapy. 00:02:56.379 --> 00:02:58.840 Right, this kind of intense experimental environment. 00:02:58.840 --> 00:03:00.680 So for people listening, what does gestalt therapy 00:03:00.680 --> 00:03:03.780 actually mean in that kind of hippie commune 00:03:03.780 --> 00:03:06.759 setting? Well, broadly, gestalt is very focused 00:03:06.759 --> 00:03:09.250 on the present moment. on individual awareness, 00:03:09.550 --> 00:03:11.789 taking responsibility for your feelings, integrating 00:03:11.789 --> 00:03:14.490 parts of yourself. It can be quite confrontational. 00:03:14.509 --> 00:03:17.370 Raising a kid where maybe every interaction feels 00:03:17.370 --> 00:03:20.430 like a therapy session, it's intense. It probably 00:03:20.430 --> 00:03:22.969 pushes you to be independent fast, but maybe 00:03:22.969 --> 00:03:25.669 you don't develop normal emotional boundaries. 00:03:25.810 --> 00:03:27.800 It sounds pretty unstable. And alongside that 00:03:27.800 --> 00:03:29.979 home life, she had her own struggles, attended 00:03:29.979 --> 00:03:32.439 a Montessori school, but wasn't thriving academically 00:03:32.439 --> 00:03:35.719 or socially. And there's this really interesting 00:03:35.719 --> 00:03:38.259 detail from back then. She started observational 00:03:38.259 --> 00:03:40.439 therapy around age three, apparently. And at 00:03:40.439 --> 00:03:42.680 nine, a psychologist noted potential signs of 00:03:42.680 --> 00:03:45.280 autism, specifically mentioning tactile defensiveness, 00:03:45.400 --> 00:03:48.439 like a real sensitivity to touch. That's fascinating, 00:03:48.599 --> 00:03:50.819 isn't it? Because it's such a contrast to the 00:03:50.819 --> 00:03:53.300 later persona. She mentioned it herself, saying 00:03:53.300 --> 00:03:55.419 something like, at an early age, I wouldn't speak. 00:03:55.539 --> 00:03:58.539 Then I simply bloomed. But that sensitivity, 00:03:58.659 --> 00:04:01.099 that withdrawal, it clashes so hard with the 00:04:01.099 --> 00:04:03.580 later image, right? The stage diving, the fighting, 00:04:03.680 --> 00:04:06.000 the revealing clothes. It makes you wonder if 00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:09.500 that whole rock star thing was partly a massive 00:04:09.500 --> 00:04:11.780 reaction against that early sensitivity, a kind 00:04:11.780 --> 00:04:14.259 of armor. Hashtag, hashtag, hashtag be rebellion 00:04:14.259 --> 00:04:17.180 in early independence. OK, so that blooming she 00:04:17.180 --> 00:04:18.540 mentioned, it definitely leaned towards rebellion. 00:04:19.360 --> 00:04:22.120 Aged 14, back in Portland, she gets caught shoplifting, 00:04:22.420 --> 00:04:25.240 ends up in Hillcrest Correctional Facility, basically 00:04:25.240 --> 00:04:28.839 juvenile hall. Right. And ironically, Juvie becomes 00:04:28.839 --> 00:04:31.519 this weird kind of cultural education for it. 00:04:31.540 --> 00:04:34.060 She discovers punk rock that changes everything. 00:04:34.399 --> 00:04:36.879 Patti Smith, the Runaways, the Pretenders. So 00:04:36.879 --> 00:04:38.519 the confinement doesn't crush her. It actually 00:04:38.519 --> 00:04:41.240 focuses her anger and gives her this soundtrack 00:04:41.240 --> 00:04:43.120 for it. She definitely wasn't going down the 00:04:43.120 --> 00:04:46.459 path her mom maybe wanted. By 16, 1980, she gets 00:04:46.459 --> 00:04:49.360 legally emancipated. Which wasn't amicable. It 00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:51.560 led to a permanent break with her mother and 00:04:51.560 --> 00:04:54.540 then starts this absolutely wild globetrotting 00:04:54.540 --> 00:04:57.660 phase, working random jobs funded by a small 00:04:57.660 --> 00:04:59.680 trust fund from her grandparents. And the jobs 00:04:59.680 --> 00:05:02.899 themselves show that duality again. Brief stint 00:05:02.899 --> 00:05:05.300 as a topless dancer in Japan gets deported for 00:05:05.300 --> 00:05:08.240 passport issues. Back in Portland, strips at 00:05:08.240 --> 00:05:09.800 Mary's Club. That's where she takes the name 00:05:09.800 --> 00:05:12.259 Love, right? To hide from family. Yeah, adopted 00:05:12.259 --> 00:05:15.879 Love's there. It's raw survival work. But then 00:05:15.879 --> 00:05:18.420 she's also DJing at a gay disco, saying she learned 00:05:18.420 --> 00:05:20.540 confidence from the drag queens there. And then, 00:05:20.560 --> 00:05:23.319 this is just peak Courtney Love paradox. 1981, 00:05:23.660 --> 00:05:26.120 she uses that trust fund money to go to Dublin, 00:05:26.319 --> 00:05:29.639 Trinity College, auditing theology courses for 00:05:29.639 --> 00:05:31.819 two semesters. It's incredible, isn't it? The 00:05:31.819 --> 00:05:34.399 highbrow intellectual curiosity funded by... 00:05:34.600 --> 00:05:36.600 You know, stripping, that constant pull between 00:05:36.600 --> 00:05:40.620 the sacred and the profane, maybe. And that time 00:05:40.620 --> 00:05:42.839 in Europe was crucial for her music ambition. 00:05:43.500 --> 00:05:45.839 She ends up in Liverpool, hanging out with people 00:05:45.839 --> 00:05:48.319 like Julian Cope from The Teardrop Explodes. 00:05:48.759 --> 00:05:52.180 He called her the adolescent in his book. And 00:05:52.180 --> 00:05:54.259 Pete DeFreitas from Echo and the Bunnymen apparently 00:05:54.259 --> 00:05:57.100 kind of took me in, mentored her. She literally 00:05:57.100 --> 00:05:59.480 called that whole period a great school to become 00:05:59.480 --> 00:06:02.879 a rock star. She came back to the U .S. in 82. 00:06:03.519 --> 00:06:05.920 knowing exactly what she wanted to do. Hashtag, 00:06:05.920 --> 00:06:08.339 tag, tag, tag C. First steps in music and film. 00:06:08.439 --> 00:06:10.500 Okay, so Ambition's locked in. But the first 00:06:10.500 --> 00:06:13.060 attempts at music stardom were, well, a bit rough. 00:06:13.259 --> 00:06:15.639 She fronted Faith No More for a bit in SF. Briefly, 00:06:15.639 --> 00:06:17.639 yeah. They recorded stuff with her but then fired 00:06:17.639 --> 00:06:20.160 her. Keyboardist Roddy Bottom apparently said 00:06:20.160 --> 00:06:23.060 they needed more of a male energy. Ouch, that 00:06:23.060 --> 00:06:25.360 must have stung. Especially given what she'd 00:06:25.360 --> 00:06:27.160 later championed. Probably fueled the fire, right? 00:06:27.399 --> 00:06:30.800 to create something undeniably female -powered. 00:06:30.939 --> 00:06:32.839 So she keeps trying these short -lived bands, 00:06:33.079 --> 00:06:36.279 often with Capgelland, Sugar Baby Doll, Pagan 00:06:36.279 --> 00:06:39.560 Babies. But here's the key thing. At this point, 00:06:39.680 --> 00:06:41.720 Courtney wasn't really playing guitar. She was 00:06:41.720 --> 00:06:44.180 writing the musical ideas, the noise, the chords, 00:06:44.339 --> 00:06:46.860 and transcribing them for Cat to play. The vision 00:06:46.860 --> 00:06:48.680 was there, just not the technical skill yet. 00:06:49.060 --> 00:06:51.399 Interesting. So when music wasn't quite clicking, 00:06:51.620 --> 00:06:54.439 she pivots, studies film at the San Francisco 00:06:54.439 --> 00:06:56.939 Art Institute, Takes acting classes with Whoopi 00:06:56.939 --> 00:06:59.180 Goldberg. And it works. Gets roles pretty quickly. 00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:02.040 Alex Cox as Sid and Nancy in 86. Then a lead 00:07:02.040 --> 00:07:04.519 in Straight to Hell in 87. She starts getting 00:07:04.519 --> 00:07:06.779 attention. Even Andy Warhol featured her on his 00:07:06.779 --> 00:07:09.459 TV show. She was right there on the edge of that 00:07:09.459 --> 00:07:12.139 sort of celebutant fame. But she hated it apparently. 00:07:12.500 --> 00:07:15.540 Despised it. According to sources, it wasn't 00:07:15.540 --> 00:07:18.019 the kind of real lasting fame she wanted. So 00:07:18.019 --> 00:07:20.939 she makes this really strategic move. Abruptly 00:07:20.939 --> 00:07:24.339 quits acting in 88. Rejects the easy path. And 00:07:24.339 --> 00:07:27.850 where does she go? Anchorage, Alaska. Works in 00:07:27.850 --> 00:07:30.250 a strip club for three months. Why? To gather 00:07:30.250 --> 00:07:32.750 her thoughts, she said. To learn how to work. 00:07:33.050 --> 00:07:35.949 It was a total reset. Building the rock identity 00:07:35.949 --> 00:07:38.350 from scratch. Funded her way, not Hollywood's. 00:07:38.870 --> 00:07:41.500 Hashtag tag tag take three. The formation of 00:07:41.500 --> 00:07:43.920 Hole in the grunge scene, 1988 -1991. Right. 00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:46.459 That Alaska reset seems to lead directly into 00:07:46.459 --> 00:07:48.180 forming Hole. And this wasn't just jamming in 00:07:48.180 --> 00:07:50.220 a garage, was it? This felt planned. Oh, highly 00:07:50.220 --> 00:07:52.540 calculated. Right. Late 88, she teaches herself 00:07:52.540 --> 00:07:55.040 guitar, moves to L .A., puts out that now legendary 00:07:55.040 --> 00:07:56.959 ad in a music paper. You know the one. I want 00:07:56.959 --> 00:07:59.160 to start a band. My influences are Big Black, 00:07:59.379 --> 00:08:01.379 Sonic Youth, and Fleetwood Mac, which is just 00:08:01.379 --> 00:08:03.980 a perfect mission statement for what Hole became, 00:08:04.220 --> 00:08:07.579 right? The noise and the melody. Exactly. The 00:08:07.579 --> 00:08:10.259 abrasive, challenging, no -wave stuff mixed with 00:08:10.259 --> 00:08:11.680 that classic pop structure and vulnerability. 00:08:12.220 --> 00:08:16.519 By 89, she finds guitarist Eric Erlandson. And 00:08:16.519 --> 00:08:19.560 even the band name, Hole, it's layered. It comes 00:08:19.560 --> 00:08:22.339 from a line in Euripides' Medea, there's a hole 00:08:22.339 --> 00:08:25.899 that pierces right through me. but also supposedly 00:08:25.899 --> 00:08:28.160 from a really blunt conversation with her mom 00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:30.120 who told her she couldn't live with a hole running 00:08:30.120 --> 00:08:32.879 through her. Wow, so literary tragedy meets raw 00:08:32.879 --> 00:08:35.059 family trauma. That's very Courtney Love. It 00:08:35.059 --> 00:08:37.200 really is. The highbrow and the visceral wound 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:39.860 combined. And again, how is she funding this? 00:08:40.019 --> 00:08:42.100 Still stripping in Hollywood, places like Jumbo's 00:08:42.100 --> 00:08:44.960 Clown Room, saving up for amps, a van. It's incredibly 00:08:44.960 --> 00:08:47.379 raw, that bootstrapping approach. Using your 00:08:47.379 --> 00:08:49.779 body to pay for her art. Hashtag, hashtag, hashtag 00:08:49.779 --> 00:08:51.940 B. The debut album and sound. Okay, so the band 00:08:51.940 --> 00:08:55.200 forms. First single, Retard Girl, in 1990, already 00:08:55.200 --> 00:08:57.379 pushing buttons. But the debut album, Pretty 00:08:57.379 --> 00:08:59.960 on the Inside, 1991, that's where the sound really 00:08:59.960 --> 00:09:02.480 landed. Oh, yeah. It was intentionally abrasive. 00:09:02.679 --> 00:09:05.639 Super dissonant, pulling from no wave, noise 00:09:05.639 --> 00:09:08.879 rock, even grindcore. Critics heard it as just 00:09:08.879 --> 00:09:11.120 totally uninhibited, almost scary sometimes. 00:09:11.500 --> 00:09:14.360 The lyrics were graphic, disturbing, tackling 00:09:14.360 --> 00:09:16.500 things like body image, sex work, violation. 00:09:17.220 --> 00:09:20.639 Just... Raw, unfiltered stuff. And getting Kim 00:09:20.639 --> 00:09:22.820 Gordon from Sonic Youth to produce it, that was 00:09:22.820 --> 00:09:25.799 huge for indie cred, right? Massive. Apparently, 00:09:25.879 --> 00:09:29.120 love... wrote Gordon this really intense personal 00:09:29.120 --> 00:09:31.860 letter basically begging her to do it. And Gordon 00:09:31.860 --> 00:09:34.700 heard the energy, agreed. That co -sign from 00:09:34.700 --> 00:09:36.340 someone like King Gordon meant everything in 00:09:36.340 --> 00:09:38.720 that scene. And it paid off critically, pretty 00:09:38.720 --> 00:09:40.659 on the inside, got great reviews in the indie 00:09:40.659 --> 00:09:43.100 press, Spin put it on their best albums list, 00:09:43.240 --> 00:09:45.200 and actually it's surprisingly well commercially 00:09:45.200 --> 00:09:47.820 in the UK, hit number 59 on the main charts, 00:09:47.940 --> 00:09:50.789 and... Teenage Whore went to number one on the 00:09:50.789 --> 00:09:53.049 UK Indie Chart. But even with that obvious feminist 00:09:53.049 --> 00:09:56.029 edge, she actively rejected the Riot Grrrl label, 00:09:56.149 --> 00:09:58.830 didn't she? Explicitly. Aggressively, even. She 00:09:58.830 --> 00:10:00.549 didn't want Hole lumped in with that movement. 00:10:00.769 --> 00:10:02.970 Why not? What was the distinction for her, do 00:10:02.970 --> 00:10:05.029 you think, between what Hole was doing and what 00:10:05.029 --> 00:10:07.149 Riot Grrrl represented? It seems to boil down 00:10:07.149 --> 00:10:10.309 to approach, maybe. Riot Grrrl often felt more 00:10:10.309 --> 00:10:13.110 about community, collective action, zines, staying 00:10:13.110 --> 00:10:18.509 outside the mainstream system. Individualistic. 00:10:18.509 --> 00:10:21.009 She wanted mainstream attention, fame, money, 00:10:21.129 --> 00:10:23.409 partly to fuel the art, partly maybe just because 00:10:23.409 --> 00:10:27.769 she wanted it. Her feminism felt more corrosive, 00:10:27.769 --> 00:10:30.549 cynical, embracing the spectacle, the ugliness, 00:10:30.690 --> 00:10:32.350 rather than trying to build something separate 00:10:32.350 --> 00:10:34.570 from it. Right. Working within the beast versus 00:10:34.570 --> 00:10:36.929 trying to build something outside it. Yeah. Something 00:10:36.929 --> 00:10:39.450 like that. A philosophical split maybe about 00:10:39.450 --> 00:10:41.889 how you achieve power and change things. Can 00:10:41.889 --> 00:10:43.529 you sort of vote from the inside by becoming 00:10:43.529 --> 00:10:46.110 this massive, messy spectacle? Or do you need 00:10:46.110 --> 00:10:47.629 a whole new system? Hashtag, hashtag, hashtag, 00:10:47.629 --> 00:10:49.809 IV. Marriage, media scrutiny, and breakthrough. 00:10:50.049 --> 00:10:52.850 1992, 1995. Okay, so Hole is making noise, getting 00:10:52.850 --> 00:10:55.269 noticed, and then her personal life just collides 00:10:55.269 --> 00:10:57.250 massively with the biggest thing happening in 00:10:57.250 --> 00:11:01.009 music, Nirvana. This period, 92 to 95, it's just 00:11:01.009 --> 00:11:04.429 relentless public focus. It's insane. The marriage 00:11:04.429 --> 00:11:08.549 to Kurt Cobain in 92 on Waikiki Beach. Instant 00:11:08.549 --> 00:11:10.970 high profile, especially after Nevermind just 00:11:10.970 --> 00:11:12.889 exploded everywhere. They weren't just a couple. 00:11:12.909 --> 00:11:15.029 They were crowned alternative rocks, king and 00:11:15.029 --> 00:11:17.750 queen. And that immediately created this huge 00:11:17.750 --> 00:11:19.970 identity crisis for her, this privacy nightmare. 00:11:20.070 --> 00:11:22.389 She said later marrying him basically created 00:11:22.389 --> 00:11:24.210 this negative myth around her she couldn't control. 00:11:24.269 --> 00:11:27.210 Made her look like, what did she say? Made Yoko 00:11:27.210 --> 00:11:31.309 Ono look like Pollyanna. And the absolute flashpoint 00:11:31.309 --> 00:11:33.570 for that vilification has to be the Vanity Fair 00:11:33.570 --> 00:11:36.490 article, Strange Love, September 92. Yeah. Right 00:11:36.490 --> 00:11:38.750 at Nirvana's peak. It painted this really dark 00:11:38.750 --> 00:11:41.250 picture alleging she used heroin while pregnant. 00:11:41.389 --> 00:11:43.830 Yeah, that was the bombshell allegation, which 00:11:43.830 --> 00:11:46.610 the sources show Love strongly denied. Said she 00:11:46.610 --> 00:11:48.370 stopped immediately when she found out she was 00:11:48.370 --> 00:11:50.610 pregnant. But the fallout was immediate and brutal. 00:11:50.789 --> 00:11:52.830 Children's services got involved, investigated. 00:11:53.250 --> 00:11:55.629 They temporarily lost custody of Frances Bean. 00:11:55.789 --> 00:11:59.129 That one article had real world. Legal consequences, 00:11:59.450 --> 00:12:02.070 high stakes. It feels like that piece just cemented 00:12:02.070 --> 00:12:04.250 a public narrative about her, maybe more than. 00:12:04.669 --> 00:12:07.169 Any song or movie had up to that point? Is that 00:12:07.169 --> 00:12:09.190 fair? I think absolutely. It wasn't just a bad 00:12:09.190 --> 00:12:11.429 profile. It felt like an indictment. It framed 00:12:11.429 --> 00:12:14.269 her for years as the unstable addict, the destructive 00:12:14.269 --> 00:12:17.450 influence. Love herself believed it damaged Cobain's 00:12:17.450 --> 00:12:19.490 mental state profoundly, hurt their marriage, 00:12:19.649 --> 00:12:21.590 maybe even contributed to his suicide later. 00:12:21.690 --> 00:12:24.250 The narrative was set. She was the agent of chaos. 00:12:24.529 --> 00:12:26.269 Hashtag, hashtag, hashtag, hashtag, be critical, 00:12:26.429 --> 00:12:28.470 acclaim, and tragedy. And then the tragedy hits. 00:12:28.590 --> 00:12:31.710 Cobain dies in April 94. While she's actually 00:12:31.710 --> 00:12:35.500 in rehab. in LA, and in this just horrific timing, 00:12:35.659 --> 00:12:37.980 Hole's second album, Live Through This, comes 00:12:37.980 --> 00:12:40.320 out one week later. The timing is just unbearable, 00:12:40.340 --> 00:12:42.539 isn't it? It instantly layered this profound, 00:12:42.700 --> 00:12:45.059 unwanted meaning onto every single lyric about 00:12:45.059 --> 00:12:48.899 beauty, anger, survival, betrayal, critics, fans. 00:12:49.100 --> 00:12:51.120 Nobody could separate the art from the life event. 00:12:51.559 --> 00:12:54.620 And then just two months later, June 94, bassist 00:12:54.620 --> 00:12:57.559 Kristen Pfaff dies of a heroin overdose. So... 00:12:57.850 --> 00:13:00.110 Love has to find a replacement, Melissa Aftermore, 00:13:00.230 --> 00:13:02.370 immediately to go on this huge world tour promoting 00:13:02.370 --> 00:13:04.710 an album about surviving pain while literally 00:13:04.710 --> 00:13:06.629 living through this unimaginable cycle of death 00:13:06.629 --> 00:13:09.509 and addiction. It's staggering. Yet somehow the 00:13:09.509 --> 00:13:12.590 album becomes this huge success. Critically adored, 00:13:12.629 --> 00:13:16.549 commercially massive, platinum by April 95. How 00:13:16.549 --> 00:13:19.149 did critics even process the music itself under 00:13:19.149 --> 00:13:21.429 those circumstances? They hailed it as a masterpiece, 00:13:21.610 --> 00:13:24.490 basically. Recognized its incredible mix of just 00:13:24.490 --> 00:13:28.009 raw, screaming rage. The noise was still there, 00:13:28.070 --> 00:13:30.269 but fused with this deep, poetic, incredibly 00:13:30.269 --> 00:13:33.490 raw vulnerability. Rolling Stone's description 00:13:33.490 --> 00:13:37.129 of her vocals as a corrosive, lumintic wail really 00:13:37.129 --> 00:13:39.590 stuck. It felt like art ripped directly from 00:13:39.590 --> 00:13:42.549 trauma. And that perception, sadly, maybe propelled 00:13:42.549 --> 00:13:44.980 her even further into the mainstream. Ended up 00:13:44.980 --> 00:13:47.179 on Barbara Walters' 10 Most Fascinating People 00:13:47.179 --> 00:13:49.379 in 95. Hashtag, hashtag, hashtag, hashtag, see. 00:13:49.519 --> 00:13:52.919 The chaotic live persona, 1994, 1995. This era 00:13:52.919 --> 00:13:55.419 also cements that absolutely wild, unpredictable 00:13:55.419 --> 00:13:57.659 stage persona. This is when the chaos wasn't 00:13:57.659 --> 00:13:59.299 just in the lyrics, it was right there, physically, 00:13:59.480 --> 00:14:01.240 on stage. Oh, the live shows were legendary. 00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:03.259 And genuinely chaotic, sometimes frightening. 00:14:03.379 --> 00:14:05.759 Love was completely uninhibited, stage diving 00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:07.539 constantly, flashing the audience, getting into 00:14:07.539 --> 00:14:09.480 actual fights with people in the crowd. It was 00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:11.840 pure spectacle, turning internal pain outward, 00:14:11.940 --> 00:14:14.600 maybe. And it spilled off stage, too. There were 00:14:14.600 --> 00:14:16.919 actual arrests, serious incidents during that 00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:20.559 tour. Melbourne, January 95, arrested for disrupting 00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:22.700 a Qantas flight. Right, arguing with a flight 00:14:22.700 --> 00:14:25.419 attendant. Then the really famous one, Lollapalooza, 00:14:25.460 --> 00:14:29.159 July 95, punches Kathleen Hanna, gets charged 00:14:29.159 --> 00:14:31.139 with assault, ends up sentenced to anger management 00:14:31.139 --> 00:14:33.840 classes. Looking back, how much of that was performance 00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:37.120 and how much was just the substance abuse taking 00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:39.600 over? It's hard to separate, isn't it? Love Herself 00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:42.399 said later she barely remembers 94 -95. Talked 00:14:42.399 --> 00:14:44.340 about using huge amounts of heroin and Rohypnol. 00:14:44.419 --> 00:14:46.220 So, yeah, it was definitely fueled by heavy drug 00:14:46.220 --> 00:14:48.940 use. It was this period of peak creativity happening 00:14:48.940 --> 00:14:51.620 alongside total personal disintegration, all 00:14:51.620 --> 00:14:53.700 playing out under this intense media spotlight 00:14:53.700 --> 00:14:56.759 that framed it as just her being notorious. Hashtag 00:14:56.759 --> 00:14:59.600 tag tag John Norovi. Mainstream success, acting 00:14:59.600 --> 00:15:03.019 and rehabilitation, 1996 to 2012. OK, so after 00:15:03.019 --> 00:15:05.899 that. absolutely brutal, live through this cycle. 00:15:06.059 --> 00:15:08.440 She pulls off another one of her big pivots, 00:15:08.580 --> 00:15:10.840 just like ditching the celeb -y Tom thing earlier. 00:15:11.080 --> 00:15:13.519 This time, it's a serious return to acting. Leads 00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:16.440 to this period of, like, image rehab, real artistic 00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:20.220 success, before, inevitably, another crash, and 00:15:20.220 --> 00:15:22.940 then a real push towards sobriety. Hashtag, hashtag, 00:15:23.139 --> 00:15:25.179 tag, tag day. Return to film and new persona, 00:15:25.360 --> 00:15:29.379 1996, 1999. That return to acting in 96 was huge. 00:15:29.700 --> 00:15:32.580 She gets cast as Althea Leisure in Mila Forman's 00:15:32.580 --> 00:15:34.750 The People. versus Larry Flint, and Foreman was 00:15:34.750 --> 00:15:37.610 strict. He demanded she get clean and stay clean 00:15:37.610 --> 00:15:39.669 for the shoot. She did it, passed multiple drug 00:15:39.669 --> 00:15:42.490 tests, and that enforced sobriety seemed to unlock 00:15:42.490 --> 00:15:44.470 this incredible performance. And the validation 00:15:44.470 --> 00:15:47.389 was immediate. Golden Globe nomination won the 00:15:47.389 --> 00:15:49.730 New York Film Critics Circle Award for Best Supporting 00:15:49.730 --> 00:15:51.970 Actress. Roger Ebert, who wasn't easy to impress, 00:15:52.090 --> 00:15:54.009 called her a true actress, not just a rock star 00:15:54.009 --> 00:15:55.889 playing pretend. That's major critical respect. 00:15:56.289 --> 00:15:59.679 Totally. And that success... fueled this whole 00:15:59.679 --> 00:16:03.159 image makeover. She consciously shifts away from 00:16:03.159 --> 00:16:05.740 the kinder whore look, the ripped dresses, the 00:16:05.740 --> 00:16:09.299 smeared makeup, starts appearing much more polished, 00:16:09.639 --> 00:16:13.100 decorous, as one source put it, doing high fashion 00:16:13.100 --> 00:16:16.039 campaigns for Versace, features in Vogue Italia, 00:16:16.340 --> 00:16:18.740 actively trying to cultivate respectability, 00:16:18.919 --> 00:16:21.480 control that narrative that had painted her as 00:16:21.480 --> 00:16:24.740 just pure chaos. And this lines up with Hole's 00:16:24.740 --> 00:16:28.210 third album, Celebrity Skin, in 98. which is 00:16:28.210 --> 00:16:31.009 this massive musical shift, right? Totally different 00:16:31.009 --> 00:16:32.710 from the earlier stuff. Complete reinvention. 00:16:32.889 --> 00:16:35.610 Ditches the raw noise for this super polished, 00:16:35.830 --> 00:16:38.970 radio -friendly power pop sound. Famously co 00:16:38.970 --> 00:16:40.669 -wrote a bunch of the songs with Billy Corgan 00:16:40.669 --> 00:16:42.330 from Smashing Pumpkins. Right, you can really 00:16:42.330 --> 00:16:44.129 hear his influence on the production, that kind 00:16:44.129 --> 00:16:46.669 of layered, slick sound. Definitely. It brought 00:16:46.669 --> 00:16:49.649 this huge level of studio polish, big hooks, 00:16:49.730 --> 00:16:52.409 compression, sacrificing that raw edge of... 00:16:52.539 --> 00:16:54.460 pretty on the inside, but it worked commercially. 00:16:54.659 --> 00:16:56.799 Celebrity Skin went multi -platinum, got three 00:16:56.799 --> 00:16:58.659 Grammy nominations, gave them the first number 00:16:58.659 --> 00:17:00.720 one modern rock hit with the title track. But 00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:03.019 even while embracing that mainstream sound, she 00:17:03.019 --> 00:17:05.660 still had her own unique touches, like collaborating 00:17:05.660 --> 00:17:08.559 with Fender on that Squier Vista Venus guitar. 00:17:09.049 --> 00:17:10.849 which was like a budget model, right? Yeah, it 00:17:10.849 --> 00:17:12.730 was a lower -priced Squier model. And that was 00:17:12.730 --> 00:17:14.869 intentional. She wanted it simple, affordable, 00:17:15.210 --> 00:17:17.809 accessible. She wanted a sound that was really 00:17:17.809 --> 00:17:20.450 warm and pop, but could still go dirty easily 00:17:20.450 --> 00:17:23.549 with basic pedals. It kind of reflects that duality 00:17:23.549 --> 00:17:26.130 again, doesn't it? Clean pop potential, but the 00:17:26.130 --> 00:17:29.230 ability to unleash noise instantly. It was also 00:17:29.230 --> 00:17:31.710 a rejection of those super -complex guitar rigs 00:17:31.710 --> 00:17:34.369 lots of male rock stars had. Keep it simple, 00:17:34.470 --> 00:17:42.869 functional. So she achieves this mainstream success, 00:17:42.990 --> 00:17:46.269 this critical acting acclaim. But then after 00:17:46.269 --> 00:17:49.609 2000, things unravel again, big time, mostly 00:17:49.609 --> 00:17:51.670 around the Nirvana legacy, right? Yeah. The legal 00:17:51.670 --> 00:17:54.940 battles really kick off in 2001. Loves to dissolve 00:17:54.940 --> 00:17:57.119 Nirvana LLC, that's the company she formed with 00:17:57.119 --> 00:17:59.279 Dave Grohl and Chris Novoselic, to manage the 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:01.539 band's legacy. Her lawsuit basically blocked 00:18:01.539 --> 00:18:03.500 everything, including a planned box set that 00:18:03.500 --> 00:18:05.019 was ready to go. That must have been incredibly 00:18:05.019 --> 00:18:08.069 bitter. Oh, it was brutal. Years of litigation. 00:18:08.630 --> 00:18:11.670 Grohl and Novoselic fired back, calling her irrational, 00:18:12.089 --> 00:18:14.569 mercurial, self -centered, saying she made the 00:18:14.569 --> 00:18:17.650 LLC impossible to run. Lowe's position was basically 00:18:17.650 --> 00:18:19.890 Kurt Cobain was Nirvana, and she and Francis 00:18:19.890 --> 00:18:21.990 were the rightful heirs, demanding more control 00:18:21.990 --> 00:18:24.589 over how the music was used, valued, released. 00:18:24.930 --> 00:18:27.970 So it's this very public fight over art, money, 00:18:28.190 --> 00:18:31.940 legacy. And it completely redefined her relationship 00:18:31.940 --> 00:18:33.940 with Grohl and Nova Selleck in the public eye. 00:18:34.019 --> 00:18:35.940 Puts her back in that volatile litigant box. 00:18:36.200 --> 00:18:39.440 Exactly. And happening alongside all this, her 00:18:39.440 --> 00:18:41.640 substance abuse problems come roaring back. Yeah, 00:18:41.660 --> 00:18:44.160 the timeline gets messy again. 2003, arrested 00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:46.599 at Heathrow, banned from Virgin Atlantic. Later 00:18:46.599 --> 00:18:48.579 that year, arrested in L .A., breaking windows 00:18:48.579 --> 00:18:51.059 at her producer boyfriend's place, charged with 00:18:51.059 --> 00:18:52.619 being under the influence. And that instability 00:18:52.619 --> 00:18:55.480 had direct consequences again. Temporarily lost 00:18:55.480 --> 00:18:58.269 custody of Frances Bean. Again. And the music 00:18:58.269 --> 00:19:01.210 from this time. Her solo debut, America's Sweetheart, 00:19:01.250 --> 00:19:03.750 in 2004. Didn't land well, did it? Critically 00:19:03.750 --> 00:19:06.750 panned. Sold terribly. Under 100 ,000 copies. 00:19:07.130 --> 00:19:09.230 Loved herself later. Disowned it, basically. 00:19:09.549 --> 00:19:11.890 Blamed her drug problems. Said something like, 00:19:11.970 --> 00:19:14.430 I cannot exist as a solo artist. It's a joke. 00:19:14.809 --> 00:19:16.529 Just brutal self -assessment. And the public 00:19:16.529 --> 00:19:18.990 appearances. Oh, boy. The Letterman incident 00:19:18.990 --> 00:19:22.130 in March 2004, flashing him, standing on the 00:19:22.130 --> 00:19:24.569 desk, that became instantly infamous. Yeah. And 00:19:24.569 --> 00:19:26.789 then, like hours later, arrested again in New 00:19:26.789 --> 00:19:28.910 York for allegedly hitting a fan with a mic stand 00:19:28.910 --> 00:19:31.650 at a club show. She later pleaded that down to 00:19:31.650 --> 00:19:34.589 disorderly conduct. It just felt like this spiral 00:19:34.589 --> 00:19:37.369 of very public self -destruction, almost deliberately 00:19:37.369 --> 00:19:39.630 undermining the mainstream success she'd just 00:19:39.630 --> 00:19:42.089 achieved. How did she finally pull out of that 00:19:42.089 --> 00:19:44.880 nosedive? It took the Kurds stepping in, really. 00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:48.019 In 2005, facing jail time, she was ordered into 00:19:48.019 --> 00:19:50.599 mandatory lockdown rehab, then had to do another 00:19:50.599 --> 00:19:53.220 180 days in a program after that. She talked 00:19:53.220 --> 00:19:55.420 openly about addictions to prescription meds, 00:19:55.460 --> 00:19:58.259 cocaine, crack. Sources say she finally achieved 00:19:58.259 --> 00:20:00.519 a more stable period of sobriety around 2007. 00:20:00.859 --> 00:20:03.119 And she credited her Buddhist practice, Soka 00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:05.019 Gakkai, which she'd actually started way back 00:20:05.019 --> 00:20:08.079 in 88. Soka Gakkai Buddhism. How did that specifically 00:20:08.079 --> 00:20:10.480 help, do you think? Well, Soka Gakkai focuses 00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:14.329 a lot on chanting Namahyur. and this idea of 00:20:14.329 --> 00:20:17.410 human revolution, basically transforming yourself 00:20:17.410 --> 00:20:19.690 from within to overcome challenges. Changing 00:20:19.690 --> 00:20:21.849 poison into medicine, as they say. For someone 00:20:21.849 --> 00:20:24.170 battling such intense, self -destructive patterns, 00:20:24.390 --> 00:20:26.670 maybe that focus on internal discipline, personal 00:20:26.670 --> 00:20:29.230 responsibility, and transformation offered a 00:20:29.230 --> 00:20:31.230 framework that court orders alone couldn't provide. 00:20:31.490 --> 00:20:34.049 It seemed to stick better this time. Hashtag 00:20:34.049 --> 00:20:37.329 tag, hashtag show, revival in art, 2009, 2012. 00:20:37.710 --> 00:20:40.089 Okay, so emerging from rehab, trying to rebuild, 00:20:40.289 --> 00:20:42.569 but the legal dramas followed her online, didn't 00:20:42.569 --> 00:20:44.450 they? The Twitter libel suits, that was pretty 00:20:44.450 --> 00:20:46.410 new territory back then. Totally pioneering, 00:20:46.450 --> 00:20:49.089 yeah. She got hit with two major libel lawsuits 00:20:49.089 --> 00:20:51.789 over things she posted on Twitter. Ended up settling 00:20:51.789 --> 00:20:56.150 one for like $450 ,000 and ordered to pay $350 00:20:56.150 --> 00:20:58.930 ,000 in another. Became one of the first big 00:20:58.930 --> 00:21:01.690 test cases for social media defamation. Chaos 00:21:01.690 --> 00:21:03.859 follows her everywhere. even digitally. Musically, 00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:05.759 she tries to bring Hole back. Nobody's Daughter 00:21:05.759 --> 00:21:08.099 comes out in 2010. But there was drama around 00:21:08.099 --> 00:21:10.359 that too, right, with Eric Erlandson. Yeah, Erlandson 00:21:10.359 --> 00:21:12.140 publicly disputed it being called a Hole album, 00:21:12.299 --> 00:21:14.720 argued it was really a solo record contractually, 00:21:14.759 --> 00:21:16.940 but it came out under the Hole name anyway. And 00:21:16.940 --> 00:21:19.660 the album itself really reflects that recovery 00:21:19.660 --> 00:21:21.700 period. A lot of the material was written during 00:21:21.700 --> 00:21:24.720 those rough years, 2003 to 2007, and in rehab. 00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:27.079 The sound changed again too. Yeah, shifted more 00:21:27.079 --> 00:21:30.039 towards folk rock, lots of acoustic guitar, still 00:21:30.039 --> 00:21:33.609 polished though, lyrically. Very focused on sobriety, 00:21:33.609 --> 00:21:36.650 struggles, reconciliation. Critics noted how 00:21:36.650 --> 00:21:39.470 her voice had changed, become really raspy and 00:21:39.470 --> 00:21:41.529 weathered. Some compared it to Dylan, actually, 00:21:41.609 --> 00:21:43.950 capturing that pain and maturity. And around 00:21:43.950 --> 00:21:45.970 the same time, she branches out again creatively, 00:21:46.309 --> 00:21:50.130 starts showing visual art. Right. 2012, she debuts 00:21:50.130 --> 00:21:52.029 this collection called And She's Not Even Pretty 00:21:52.029 --> 00:21:55.009 in New York. drawings, paintings. It's just another 00:21:55.009 --> 00:21:56.690 example of her needing to process everything, 00:21:56.789 --> 00:21:58.930 the good, the bad, the ugly, and turn it into 00:21:58.930 --> 00:22:01.009 something tangible, something creative, whether 00:22:01.009 --> 00:22:03.069 it's music or art. It's how she controls the 00:22:03.069 --> 00:22:05.390 narrative, maybe. Hashtag, tag, tag, rule my 00:22:05.390 --> 00:22:08.289 hip. Current status, artistry, and enduring legacy? 00:22:08.650 --> 00:22:12.750 So, looking at the last decade or so, 2013 onward, 00:22:12.750 --> 00:22:15.950 it seems like maybe a period of relative stability. 00:22:17.269 --> 00:22:19.690 Continued work, but maybe less relentless crisis. 00:22:19.970 --> 00:22:22.390 Relatively speaking, yeah. She went back to acting, 00:22:22.490 --> 00:22:24.750 doing supporting roles on TV shows like Sons 00:22:24.750 --> 00:22:27.289 of Anarchy, Revenge, and a recurring part on 00:22:27.289 --> 00:22:30.359 Empire. And her music for Empire, like the track 00:22:30.359 --> 00:22:33.779 Walk Out On Me, got really good reviews. Critics 00:22:33.779 --> 00:22:36.299 noted how her voice now, that husky, lived -in 00:22:36.299 --> 00:22:39.119 sound, perfectly fit the ravaged darkness of 00:22:39.119 --> 00:22:41.160 the song. Like, the life experience added this 00:22:41.160 --> 00:22:43.279 layer to her art. And she finally got a win on 00:22:43.279 --> 00:22:45.099 the legal front with those Twitter cases. Yeah, 00:22:45.140 --> 00:22:47.500 in 2014, she actually won the first Twitter libel 00:22:47.500 --> 00:22:49.940 case that ever went to trial in the U .S. A former 00:22:49.940 --> 00:22:52.079 lawyer sued her, and the jury cited with love. 00:22:52.589 --> 00:22:54.890 landmark case. And she finally finished her memoir, 00:22:55.049 --> 00:22:57.109 The Girl with the Most Cake, came out in 2022 00:22:57.109 --> 00:22:59.630 after being in the works for ages. And her activism 00:22:59.630 --> 00:23:01.829 resurfaced in a big way during Me Too, right? 00:23:01.930 --> 00:23:04.430 With that old Weinstein clip. Oh, yeah. That 00:23:04.430 --> 00:23:08.029 2005 red carpet clip where she warns young actresses, 00:23:08.049 --> 00:23:10.190 if Harvey Weinstein invites you to a private 00:23:10.190 --> 00:23:15.630 party, don't go. It went viral in 2017. She later 00:23:15.630 --> 00:23:18.009 claimed she got eternally banned by her agency, 00:23:18.289 --> 00:23:21.349 CAA, for saying things like that back then. shows 00:23:21.349 --> 00:23:23.569 there was maybe real professional risk to her 00:23:23.569 --> 00:23:25.789 being outspoken, not just self -inflicted drama. 00:23:26.029 --> 00:23:28.750 And the sobriety journey, it's ongoing. Seems 00:23:28.750 --> 00:23:31.470 like it. She indicated publicly she'd relapsed 00:23:31.470 --> 00:23:34.049 with opioids around 2018, but then shortly after 00:23:34.049 --> 00:23:36.970 celebrated a year of sobriety. So it's clearly 00:23:36.970 --> 00:23:39.210 still a struggle, but one she seems committed 00:23:39.210 --> 00:23:41.549 to navigating now. Okay, let's pull back from 00:23:41.549 --> 00:23:43.470 the life story for a second and focus just on 00:23:43.470 --> 00:23:45.849 the art. Her influences were always more complex 00:23:45.849 --> 00:23:47.750 than just grunge, weren't they? Oh, absolutely. 00:23:48.069 --> 00:23:50.250 She was incredibly well -read, musically literate, 00:23:50.269 --> 00:23:52.730 always talked about post -punk and new wave being 00:23:52.730 --> 00:23:54.950 foundational. Right. She called Joy Division's 00:23:54.950 --> 00:23:57.089 Love Will Tear Us Apart the greatest song ever, 00:23:57.230 --> 00:23:59.710 cited Echo and the Bunnymen as huge influences. 00:24:00.009 --> 00:24:02.650 You can draw a direct line from that 80s intelligent 00:24:02.650 --> 00:24:05.869 atmospheric rock to whole sound. And literature 00:24:05.869 --> 00:24:08.089 was always there. We mentioned Medea. She talked 00:24:08.089 --> 00:24:10.430 about prioritizing lyrics, wanting them to look 00:24:10.430 --> 00:24:12.829 good on the page like poetry. Reference T .S. 00:24:12.829 --> 00:24:15.450 Eliot, Baudelaire, and Sexton. Critics saw her 00:24:15.450 --> 00:24:17.569 articulating this kind of third wave feminist 00:24:17.569 --> 00:24:20.069 consciousness, tackling really tough subjects, 00:24:20.250 --> 00:24:23.430 body image, sex work, assault, death from this 00:24:23.430 --> 00:24:26.089 unflinching female viewpoint. And that famous 00:24:26.089 --> 00:24:28.549 quote about wanting both a grindcore band and 00:24:28.549 --> 00:24:31.579 a raspberry style pop band. That perfectly explains 00:24:31.579 --> 00:24:34.039 the huge leaps in sound, doesn't it? It really 00:24:34.039 --> 00:24:36.440 does. It shows she had the desire and eventually 00:24:36.440 --> 00:24:39.299 the skill to do both the extreme noise of Pretty 00:24:39.299 --> 00:24:41.759 on the Inside and the super melodic polished 00:24:41.759 --> 00:24:44.599 pop of Celebrity Skin. She wanted to master both 00:24:44.599 --> 00:24:46.900 ends of the spectrum. And her voice, instantly 00:24:46.900 --> 00:24:49.500 recognizable. That husky contralto and then the 00:24:49.500 --> 00:24:52.059 scream. That banshee -like scream, yeah, it's 00:24:52.059 --> 00:24:54.480 iconic. Get her ranked number 130 on Rolling 00:24:54.480 --> 00:24:57.319 Stone's 200 Greatest Singers list recently. It's 00:24:57.319 --> 00:24:59.319 a unique instrument. Hashtag, hashtag, hashtag, 00:24:59.319 --> 00:25:02.460 legacy and impact. So when you boil it all down, 00:25:02.539 --> 00:25:04.640 what's the core legacy? For me, it comes back 00:25:04.640 --> 00:25:06.900 to that idea of female empowerment through just 00:25:06.900 --> 00:25:10.200 grabbing an instrument. Totally. That quote is 00:25:10.200 --> 00:25:12.559 everything. I want every girl in the world to 00:25:12.559 --> 00:25:14.799 pick up a guitar and start screaming, I strap 00:25:14.799 --> 00:25:17.079 on that motherfucking guitar and you cannot fuck 00:25:17.079 --> 00:25:20.460 with me. That's the message. She created this 00:25:20.460 --> 00:25:23.309 powerful blueprint. And it connected. Hole sold 00:25:23.309 --> 00:25:26.150 millions of records, over three million just 00:25:26.150 --> 00:25:29.029 in the U .S., one of the most successful female 00:25:29.029 --> 00:25:32.130 -fronted rock bands ever. She genuinely did subvert 00:25:32.130 --> 00:25:34.109 expectations about how women in rock should look, 00:25:34.210 --> 00:25:37.309 sound, act. And the look itself, the kinder whore 00:25:37.309 --> 00:25:39.890 aesthetic, the baby doll dresses, smeared makeup, 00:25:40.170 --> 00:25:42.269 tiaras, that was part of the subversion too. 00:25:42.410 --> 00:25:44.470 She said it was meant as irony, mocking those 00:25:44.470 --> 00:25:46.990 ideas of innocence and domesticity. even if the 00:25:46.990 --> 00:25:48.950 mainstream just saw it as grunge fashion. And 00:25:48.950 --> 00:25:50.710 beyond the stage, she's consistently supported 00:25:50.710 --> 00:25:53.230 causes too, right? Yeah, longtime support for 00:25:53.230 --> 00:25:55.369 LGBT causes, working with the LA Gay and Lesbian 00:25:55.369 --> 00:25:57.809 Center, anti -sexual abuse charities like the 00:25:57.809 --> 00:25:59.950 Joyful Heart Foundation, and she even took on 00:25:59.950 --> 00:26:02.250 the music industry itself. Wrote that big piece 00:26:02.250 --> 00:26:04.630 for Salon back in 2000, arguing about unfair 00:26:04.630 --> 00:26:07.130 contracts, artists getting ripped off. Then more 00:26:07.130 --> 00:26:10.190 recently started From Her to Eternity in 2021 00:26:10.190 --> 00:26:12.529 to spotlight women's contributions to music history. 00:26:12.710 --> 00:26:15.089 So that desire for change runs deep. Hashtag, 00:26:15.089 --> 00:26:19.190 hashtag, hashtag. outro. Wow. Okay. What a journey. 00:26:19.289 --> 00:26:22.009 I mean, from potential autism diagnosis and studying 00:26:22.009 --> 00:26:24.049 theology to juvie, getting kicked out of Faith 00:26:24.049 --> 00:26:26.049 No More, becoming an Oscar -nominated actress. 00:26:26.130 --> 00:26:28.849 The rehab cycles, it's just immense. What really 00:26:28.849 --> 00:26:31.390 stands out is the sheer volume of stuff she created. 00:26:31.470 --> 00:26:33.910 The music, the films, the art, right in the middle 00:26:33.910 --> 00:26:35.609 of all that chaos, maybe even because of it. 00:26:35.650 --> 00:26:37.490 It really highlights that contradiction at her 00:26:37.490 --> 00:26:38.930 core, doesn't it? This incredibly intelligent 00:26:38.930 --> 00:26:41.630 person, steeped in literature and philosophy, 00:26:41.869 --> 00:26:44.509 but constantly grappling with these huge, very 00:26:44.509 --> 00:26:47.549 public, personal demons, addiction, legal fights. 00:26:47.849 --> 00:26:50.630 outbursts. Her whole career is this wild case 00:26:50.630 --> 00:26:53.990 study in taking vulnerability, chaos, even self 00:26:53.990 --> 00:26:56.430 -destruction and somehow forging it into really 00:26:56.430 --> 00:27:00.549 successful, complex, undeniable art and achieving 00:27:00.549 --> 00:27:03.529 this lasting notoriety. Which brings us to our 00:27:03.529 --> 00:27:06.410 final thought. for you, our listeners, to chew 00:27:06.410 --> 00:27:08.769 on. We've tracked this turbulent path towards 00:27:08.769 --> 00:27:11.670 sobriety, towards stability, but so much of our 00:27:11.670 --> 00:27:13.910 iconic work lives through this. That explosive 00:27:13.910 --> 00:27:16.109 stage persona came directly from the absolute 00:27:16.109 --> 00:27:18.789 peak of the chaos, the addiction. So is that 00:27:18.789 --> 00:27:20.849 kind of artistic breakthrough only really possible 00:27:20.849 --> 00:27:23.009 when you're blurring the line between creation 00:27:23.009 --> 00:27:25.609 and self -destruction? Or is the later work, 00:27:25.670 --> 00:27:27.789 the stuff born from sobriety, like the reflective 00:27:27.789 --> 00:27:30.250 nobody's daughter, the disciplined acting, actually, 00:27:30.369 --> 00:27:32.690 the more profound, maybe the harder one, legacy, 00:27:32.910 --> 00:27:33.750 something to think about?