WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.520 Welcome back to the Deep Dive. Today, we're tackling 00:00:02.520 --> 00:00:05.480 an artist whose career is, well, anything but 00:00:05.480 --> 00:00:08.320 straightforward. We're diving into Rikki Lee 00:00:08.320 --> 00:00:10.960 Jones. Yeah, Rikki Lee Jones, born back in 54, 00:00:11.259 --> 00:00:15.119 Chicago, and her career. It's now hitting five 00:00:15.119 --> 00:00:19.120 decades, 15 studio albums. 15. And the thing 00:00:19.120 --> 00:00:21.100 is, you can't just draw a straight line through 00:00:21.100 --> 00:00:23.460 them, can you? Not at all. It's zigzags, loops, 00:00:23.679 --> 00:00:26.199 sharp turns. Our mission today really is to unpack 00:00:26.199 --> 00:00:29.320 that, to figure out why she's seen as just so 00:00:29.320 --> 00:00:31.940 individual, so eclectic among singer -songwriters. 00:00:32.179 --> 00:00:34.520 Okay, so let's start there. Eclectic. It's almost 00:00:34.520 --> 00:00:36.179 an understatement. The minute you start listening, 00:00:36.219 --> 00:00:39.179 you realize trying to pin down a genre is... 00:00:39.929 --> 00:00:41.750 Kind of pointless. Completely. She pulls from 00:00:41.750 --> 00:00:45.310 rock, R &B, pop, soul, definitely jazz. But it's 00:00:45.310 --> 00:00:47.270 not like she just dabbles. She, like, embodies 00:00:47.270 --> 00:00:49.369 these things then moves on. Right. And the critics 00:00:49.369 --> 00:00:51.429 picked up on this early. All music, I think, 00:00:51.450 --> 00:00:54.289 really nailed it. They called her, hang on, yeah, 00:00:54.409 --> 00:00:56.950 an expressive and smoky instrument and a composer 00:00:56.950 --> 00:01:00.130 who can weave jazz, folk, and R &B into songs 00:01:00.130 --> 00:01:03.590 with a distinct pop sensibility. That word weave 00:01:03.590 --> 00:01:05.969 is key, isn't it? It's not just throwing styles 00:01:05.969 --> 00:01:08.719 together. Exactly. It's integration. She makes 00:01:08.719 --> 00:01:10.920 something new out of those threads. And the industry 00:01:10.920 --> 00:01:13.400 kept noticing, even when she wasn't exactly chasing 00:01:13.400 --> 00:01:17.299 hits. Two Grammys, eight nominations total. And, 00:01:17.359 --> 00:01:19.840 you know, for context, VH1 ranked her number 00:01:19.840 --> 00:01:22.579 30 on their 100 Greatest Women in Rock and Roll 00:01:22.579 --> 00:01:25.579 list. That was back in 99. So she's got that 00:01:25.579 --> 00:01:27.640 historical cred, but she's not just a legacy 00:01:27.640 --> 00:01:30.219 act. Not even close. Her latest album, Pieces 00:01:30.219 --> 00:01:33.239 of Treasure, from just last year, 2023. Right. 00:01:33.319 --> 00:01:35.219 The one focusing on the Great American Songbook. 00:01:35.379 --> 00:01:37.760 Yeah. And it got her another Grammy nomination, 00:01:38.060 --> 00:01:41.540 her eighth, for Best Traditional Pop Vocal Album. 00:01:41.659 --> 00:01:44.180 That really says it all, doesn't it? Nearly 50 00:01:44.180 --> 00:01:47.659 years in, still getting nominated, and in a category 00:01:47.659 --> 00:01:49.939 like traditional pop, after starting out with 00:01:49.939 --> 00:01:53.060 this unique kind of beatnik rock jazz thing. 00:01:53.180 --> 00:01:56.079 That versatility is just, wow, it's incredibly 00:01:56.079 --> 00:01:58.400 rare. So if her music is this complex blend, 00:01:58.719 --> 00:02:01.159 where does that DNA come from? We need to go 00:02:01.159 --> 00:02:03.129 back. Right. To her roots. Absolutely. You have 00:02:03.129 --> 00:02:05.090 to look at her family. She was the third of four 00:02:05.090 --> 00:02:08.090 kids born to Richard and Betty Jones. And named 00:02:08.090 --> 00:02:10.990 after her father, Richard. Yes. And Richard Jones 00:02:10.990 --> 00:02:13.830 wasn't, you know, an accountant. He was a singer, 00:02:13.969 --> 00:02:16.969 a songwriter, a painter, a trumpet player, a 00:02:16.969 --> 00:02:19.330 creative soul. You can see the line right there. 00:02:19.889 --> 00:02:22.669 Instantly. The multi -talented, maybe slightly 00:02:22.669 --> 00:02:25.789 restless artist thing, it's inherited. And then 00:02:25.789 --> 00:02:27.289 there's the contrast with her mother, Betty, 00:02:27.409 --> 00:02:30.419 raised in orphanages in Ohio. Yeah, quite a different 00:02:30.419 --> 00:02:32.360 background. So you have this childhood environment, 00:02:32.580 --> 00:02:34.780 probably full of artistic expression from her 00:02:34.780 --> 00:02:39.240 dad, but maybe also this undercurrent of searching, 00:02:39.460 --> 00:02:41.759 instability, reflecting her mom's upbringing. 00:02:42.000 --> 00:02:44.060 They lived in Phoenix mostly during her formative 00:02:44.060 --> 00:02:46.740 years, ages 4 to 14. Right, but moved around 00:02:46.740 --> 00:02:48.900 a bit even then. That troubadour thing, that 00:02:48.900 --> 00:02:50.639 sense of being on the move, it probably started 00:02:50.639 --> 00:02:53.699 really early. But the performance style, the 00:02:53.699 --> 00:02:56.039 theatricality, the way she tells stories and 00:02:56.039 --> 00:02:59.319 songs. That goes back even further, doesn't it? 00:02:59.340 --> 00:03:02.240 Oh, yeah. Straight back to vaudeville. Her paternal 00:03:02.240 --> 00:03:05.099 grandfather, Frank Pegleg Jones. Pegleg Jones. 00:03:05.219 --> 00:03:07.680 What a name. Isn't it great? He and her grandmother, 00:03:07.939 --> 00:03:10.860 Myrtle Lee, were Chicago -based vaudevillians. 00:03:10.979 --> 00:03:13.240 And his act explains so much about Ricky Lee's 00:03:13.240 --> 00:03:16.020 presentation later on. Totally. He was a singer, 00:03:16.099 --> 00:03:18.719 dancer, comedian, played the ukulele, did soft 00:03:18.719 --> 00:03:22.060 shoe, acrobatics, comedy routines, a real all 00:03:22.060 --> 00:03:23.860 around entertainer. So when you hear those early 00:03:23.860 --> 00:03:26.939 tracks like Coolsville or even the conversational 00:03:26.939 --> 00:03:29.639 bits in Chucky's In Love. It clicks. Right. It's 00:03:29.639 --> 00:03:32.139 not just folk storytelling. It's got that stagecraft, 00:03:32.219 --> 00:03:34.080 that character work, that almost musical theater 00:03:34.080 --> 00:03:36.919 feel. That's Peg Leg's legacy in her work. And 00:03:36.919 --> 00:03:38.960 she really dives into all this in her memoir 00:03:38.960 --> 00:03:42.830 from 2021 Last Chance Texaco. Chronicles of an 00:03:42.830 --> 00:03:44.909 American Troubadour. Essential reading, absolutely. 00:03:45.250 --> 00:03:47.389 And that title. From the song. Yeah, The Last 00:03:47.389 --> 00:03:49.490 Chat's Texaco, which itself got a Grammy nomination 00:03:49.490 --> 00:03:52.509 way back in 1980. The memoir connects the dots, 00:03:52.590 --> 00:03:54.990 you know. The transient, artistic, sometimes 00:03:54.990 --> 00:03:58.469 difficult childhood, and the very specific, stylized 00:03:58.469 --> 00:04:00.490 art she created. You see how the life shaped 00:04:00.490 --> 00:04:02.650 the music. Okay, let's shift gears. Fast forward 00:04:02.650 --> 00:04:07.110 to the mid -70s. California. Coffee houses. And 00:04:07.110 --> 00:04:11.099 then... boom stardom right so 1975 she's 21 living 00:04:11.099 --> 00:04:13.939 in venice california singing in bars coffee houses 00:04:13.939 --> 00:04:16.399 doing jazz standards remember the vaudeville 00:04:16.399 --> 00:04:18.519 roots but also her own stuff and this is where 00:04:18.519 --> 00:04:20.620 she starts collaborating yeah she meets alfred 00:04:20.620 --> 00:04:23.240 johnson they co -write some key tracks for her 00:04:23.240 --> 00:04:26.220 debut like weasel and the white boys cool and 00:04:26.220 --> 00:04:28.800 company and then comes the meeting that became 00:04:28.800 --> 00:04:33.139 legendary the troubadour 1977 elf Tom Waits. 00:04:33.139 --> 00:04:37.180 Ah, yes. Tom Waits. A whole chapter of rock mythology 00:04:37.180 --> 00:04:40.300 right there. Two incredibly unique artists. They 00:04:40.300 --> 00:04:42.920 dated for about two years, split up in late 79. 00:04:43.259 --> 00:04:45.180 And that relationship, or at least that circle 00:04:45.180 --> 00:04:47.160 of friends, led directly to her breakthrough 00:04:47.160 --> 00:04:50.800 hit. It did. Chucky's in love. Story's great. 00:04:50.920 --> 00:04:53.220 Their friend Chucky Wise calls them up one day 00:04:53.220 --> 00:04:55.839 in 77, totally out of the blue, just to say he's 00:04:55.839 --> 00:04:57.759 fallen in love. And she turns that phone call 00:04:57.759 --> 00:05:00.040 into that song. Yeah, captures that moment, that 00:05:00.040 --> 00:05:02.439 cool conversational vibe perfectly. It is the 00:05:02.439 --> 00:05:04.459 announcement. Which leads to the debut album, 00:05:04.680 --> 00:05:08.300 Ricky Lee Jones, March 1979. And it wasn't just 00:05:08.300 --> 00:05:11.160 a hit. It was a moment. A phenomenon. Number 00:05:11.160 --> 00:05:14.420 three on the Billboard 200, platinum. And Chucky's 00:05:14.420 --> 00:05:15.959 In Love goes all the way to number four on the 00:05:15.959 --> 00:05:18.540 Hot 100. Just huge. And look who's playing on 00:05:18.540 --> 00:05:21.540 it. Dr. John, Randy Newman, Michael McDonald. 00:05:21.800 --> 00:05:24.439 Right, that tells you something. She wasn't seen 00:05:24.439 --> 00:05:27.759 as some small indie artist. She arrived commanding 00:05:27.759 --> 00:05:30.060 respect, operating at the sophisticated intersection 00:05:30.060 --> 00:05:33.399 of jazz, rock, pop. And Youngblood was another 00:05:33.399 --> 00:05:36.000 hit too, right? Top 40. Yep, hit number 40 later 00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:38.680 in 79, so multiple successes right out of the 00:05:38.680 --> 00:05:41.800 gate. Then the Grammys in 1980. Four nominations. 00:05:42.319 --> 00:05:44.459 Four. Song of the Year, Best Pop Vocal Female, 00:05:44.800 --> 00:05:47.639 Best Rock Vocal Female for Last Chance Texaco. 00:05:47.819 --> 00:05:50.959 And the big one, Best New Artist, which she won. 00:05:51.420 --> 00:05:54.420 Exactly. That cemented the critical acclaim. 00:05:54.420 --> 00:05:56.740 But the real explosion into public consciousness 00:05:56.740 --> 00:05:59.439 happened even earlier. The serenade live appearance, 00:05:59.660 --> 00:06:02.920 April 79. That was it. She performs Chucky's 00:06:02.920 --> 00:06:05.540 in Love and Coolsville. Nobody really knew who 00:06:05.540 --> 00:06:07.660 she was on that massive scale. And then suddenly 00:06:07.660 --> 00:06:10.620 everyone did. Overnight sensation, truly. And 00:06:10.620 --> 00:06:12.939 the press just ran with it. Time magazine calls 00:06:12.939 --> 00:06:15.259 her the Duchess of Coolsville after her first 00:06:15.259 --> 00:06:17.579 pro show in Boston. The perfect nickname. It 00:06:17.579 --> 00:06:19.720 captured everything. The voice, the style, the 00:06:19.720 --> 00:06:21.779 attitude. And that image gets locked in with 00:06:21.779 --> 00:06:24.620 the Rolling Stone cover. August. August 79. Annie 00:06:24.620 --> 00:06:27.540 Leibovitz photo. The iconic one. Crouched down, 00:06:27.660 --> 00:06:31.139 black bra, white beret. It just screamed unique, 00:06:31.439 --> 00:06:35.240 authentic, beatnik, cool. It's interesting, too, 00:06:35.300 --> 00:06:37.879 that story about Francis Ford Coppola wanting 00:06:37.879 --> 00:06:40.379 her and waits for the One from the Heart soundtrack 00:06:40.379 --> 00:06:43.290 right after they broke up. Yeah, Coppola thought 00:06:43.290 --> 00:06:45.449 the tension would be perfect for the film's theme, 00:06:45.569 --> 00:06:48.110 but she declined, said no. Which says a lot about 00:06:48.110 --> 00:06:50.910 her prioritizing her own space over a huge career 00:06:50.910 --> 00:06:53.230 move. Absolutely. Waits did it with Crystal Gale 00:06:53.230 --> 00:06:57.189 instead, but Ricky Lee, she drew a line. Okay, 00:06:57.250 --> 00:06:59.529 so she follows this massive debut with Pirates 00:06:59.529 --> 00:07:02.230 in 1981, proving she wasn't just a flash in the 00:07:02.230 --> 00:07:04.800 pan. Definitely not. Pirates was another critical 00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:07.420 and commercial success. Hit number five on the 00:07:07.420 --> 00:07:10.220 Billboard 200 went gold. And Rolling Stone loved 00:07:10.220 --> 00:07:12.480 it. Five stars, another cover feature. They were 00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:14.699 fully on board. And its reputation has only grown. 00:07:14.980 --> 00:07:17.339 NPR put it at number 49 on their list of the 00:07:17.339 --> 00:07:20.800 150 greatest albums made by women in 2017. It's 00:07:20.800 --> 00:07:22.819 considered a classic. But after that success 00:07:22.819 --> 00:07:25.399 and dealing with the Waits breakup fallout, she 00:07:25.399 --> 00:07:27.699 kind of steps back again. Seems like it. She 00:07:27.699 --> 00:07:29.360 moves from New York to San Francisco, becomes 00:07:29.360 --> 00:07:31.699 friends with Robin Williams there. Then she puts 00:07:31.699 --> 00:07:35.279 out The Girl at her Volcano EP in 83. Mostly 00:07:35.279 --> 00:07:38.100 covers, right? And self -produced. Yeah, jazz 00:07:38.100 --> 00:07:40.019 and pop standards, plus one original Hey Bub 00:07:40.019 --> 00:07:42.279 that was actually left over from the Pirate Sessions. 00:07:42.420 --> 00:07:45.379 And then she moves to Paris. For four months, 00:07:45.500 --> 00:07:49.120 just to write. Exactly. Which sets up this next 00:07:49.120 --> 00:07:52.920 phase, a period of transition, dealing with loss, 00:07:53.060 --> 00:07:55.560 pressure, and then finding her way back. Did 00:07:55.560 --> 00:07:58.160 that time in Paris, that pressure, shape the 00:07:58.160 --> 00:08:01.329 next album, the magazine? in 84. It feels like 00:08:01.329 --> 00:08:03.430 it. The magazine co -produced with James Newton 00:08:03.430 --> 00:08:06.209 Howard, it's complex. It's got unusual structures 00:08:06.209 --> 00:08:08.889 like that three -song suite, Rorschach's. And 00:08:08.889 --> 00:08:10.810 musically, it started to shift things. You mentioned 00:08:10.810 --> 00:08:13.389 synthesizers. Yeah, minimalist synth patterns, 00:08:13.550 --> 00:08:16.350 which is a really interesting signpost. How so? 00:08:16.490 --> 00:08:19.790 It wasn't the big 80s synth sound. No, not bombastic. 00:08:19.870 --> 00:08:22.209 More textural, atmospheric. It shows her already 00:08:22.209 --> 00:08:24.410 leaning towards electronic soundscapes, away 00:08:24.410 --> 00:08:26.550 from just the organic jazz band thing. It was 00:08:26.550 --> 00:08:30.610 subtle, moody, maybe a bit out of step with mainstream 00:08:30.610 --> 00:08:33.590 80s pop, but definitely pointing towards future 00:08:33.590 --> 00:08:36.309 experiments. But then after the magazine, she 00:08:36.309 --> 00:08:38.649 basically disappears for four years. That's a 00:08:38.649 --> 00:08:40.269 long time for someone to air level then. It's 00:08:40.269 --> 00:08:42.730 huge, especially in the MTV era. You just didn't 00:08:42.730 --> 00:08:46.009 do that. But the reasons were profound. Her father, 00:08:46.149 --> 00:08:49.500 Richard, died. And her mentor, Bob Regger, died 00:08:49.500 --> 00:08:52.879 in the same year. Wow. Both at once. Yeah. So 00:08:52.879 --> 00:08:56.299 this wasn't like a strategic career pause. It 00:08:56.299 --> 00:08:59.340 sounds like a necessary retreat. Grieving, processing, 00:08:59.700 --> 00:09:01.539 figuring things out, away from the spotlight. 00:09:01.799 --> 00:09:03.539 But she wasn't totally inactive. There was that 00:09:03.539 --> 00:09:06.740 odd voiceover role. Right. The 1987 animated 00:09:06.740 --> 00:09:08.799 film, Pinocchio and the Emperor of the Night, 00:09:08.940 --> 00:09:11.600 she replaced Shirley Jones as the fairy godmother. 00:09:12.250 --> 00:09:14.370 and sang a song, Love is the Light Inside Your 00:09:14.370 --> 00:09:16.470 Heart. The Duchess of Coolsville as the fairy 00:09:16.470 --> 00:09:19.049 godmother. That's quite a pivot. It really is. 00:09:19.190 --> 00:09:21.529 Shows a range, maybe, or just a willingness to 00:09:21.529 --> 00:09:23.570 do unexpected things. Then she starts performing 00:09:23.570 --> 00:09:26.610 again, tours Scandinavia, opens for Ray Charles 00:09:26.610 --> 00:09:29.710 in Israel. New management with Michael Lang. 00:09:29.830 --> 00:09:31.669 Yeah. And this leads to the big comeback. Yes. 00:09:31.750 --> 00:09:35.200 The Flying Cowboys' rebirth in 1989. Signed to 00:09:35.200 --> 00:09:37.980 Geffen. And the key move here was Gary Gersh 00:09:37.980 --> 00:09:40.820 at A &R pairing her with Walter Becker from Steely 00:09:40.820 --> 00:09:43.059 Dan to produce. Okay, Walter Becker. That's a 00:09:43.059 --> 00:09:45.580 specific sound. Steely Dan is known for that 00:09:45.580 --> 00:09:48.980 meticulous, sophisticated, jazzy pop rock. Was 00:09:48.980 --> 00:09:51.620 there a risk pairing her with her looser beatnik 00:09:51.620 --> 00:09:54.590 image? with someone so polished. It was definitely 00:09:54.590 --> 00:09:57.549 a choice, and a risk maybe for her original hardcore 00:09:57.549 --> 00:10:00.549 fans. But Becker understood complex harmony, 00:10:00.730 --> 00:10:02.970 sophisticated arrangements, and pop structure. 00:10:03.269 --> 00:10:05.669 He could give her sound a certain accessibility, 00:10:06.169 --> 00:10:09.549 a polish, without totally losing her unique voice 00:10:09.549 --> 00:10:11.549 and jazz instincts. In commercially, it worked. 00:10:11.750 --> 00:10:14.230 Big time. Flying Cowboys eventually went gold, 00:10:14.350 --> 00:10:17.230 and it had two significant singles. Satellites 00:10:17.230 --> 00:10:18.950 actually hit number one on the adult contemporary 00:10:18.950 --> 00:10:21.190 chart. That's mainstream validation right there. 00:10:21.480 --> 00:10:23.759 after being away for so long. Huge. And then 00:10:23.759 --> 00:10:25.700 there's The Horses, co -written with Becker. 00:10:25.799 --> 00:10:27.879 That song just lives on, doesn't it? It really 00:10:27.879 --> 00:10:30.600 does. Kenny Loggins covered it. It was huge in 00:10:30.600 --> 00:10:32.740 Jerry Maguire. And Daryl Braithwaite's cover 00:10:32.740 --> 00:10:35.419 was a massive number one hit in Australia in 00:10:35.419 --> 00:10:39.100 91. It became this kind of global anthem, showed 00:10:39.100 --> 00:10:41.179 she could write these incredibly resonant songs. 00:10:41.500 --> 00:10:43.899 And this comeback period also brought her second 00:10:43.899 --> 00:10:46.580 Grammy. Not directly for Flying Cowboys, though. 00:10:46.700 --> 00:10:49.279 Right. First, she got a nomination in 89 for 00:10:49.279 --> 00:10:52.440 Best Jazz Vocal Performance Female for her duet 00:10:52.440 --> 00:10:55.259 Autumn Leaves with Rob Wasserman on his duets 00:10:55.259 --> 00:10:57.539 album. OK, still keeping that jazz connection 00:10:57.539 --> 00:11:00.139 strong. Absolutely. And then the win came in 00:11:00.139 --> 00:11:02.860 1990 for her duet with Dr. John. Talk about coming 00:11:02.860 --> 00:11:05.360 full circle, covering Macon Whoopie. They won 00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:08.720 Best Jazz Vocal Performance Duo or Group. So 00:11:08.720 --> 00:11:11.259 first Grammy for Best New Artist, bridging pop 00:11:11.259 --> 00:11:13.679 and rock. Yeah. Second Grammy firmly in the jazz 00:11:13.679 --> 00:11:16.559 world. Exactly. It perfectly underlined her ability 00:11:16.559 --> 00:11:19.399 to exist authentically in both worlds or rather 00:11:19.399 --> 00:11:21.700 to just ignore the boundaries between them. Which 00:11:21.700 --> 00:11:23.639 really sets the stage for the 90s, right, where 00:11:23.639 --> 00:11:25.700 the experimentation just goes into overdrive. 00:11:25.720 --> 00:11:28.879 Forget commercial expectations. Totally. The 00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:32.419 90s start with Pop Pop in 1991. Her first album 00:11:32.419 --> 00:11:35.779 of all jazz covers produced by David was. It 00:11:35.779 --> 00:11:38.159 felt like a deliberate step away from the polish 00:11:38.159 --> 00:11:41.259 of Flying Cowboys. Back to her roots, in a way, 00:11:41.279 --> 00:11:43.799 but with a twist. Exactly. It wasn't just playing 00:11:43.799 --> 00:11:46.279 standards straight. David Wise gave it this almost 00:11:46.279 --> 00:11:49.139 Argentinian flavor, and the song choices were 00:11:49.139 --> 00:11:52.399 wild. Tin Pan Alley next to Jimi Hendrix's Up 00:11:52.399 --> 00:11:55.769 From the Skies. Hendrix. On a jazz covers album. 00:11:55.909 --> 00:11:59.029 Yeah. It was her saying the Great American Songbook 00:11:59.029 --> 00:12:01.649 isn't some static museum piece. It includes Hendrix. 00:12:01.710 --> 00:12:04.230 It includes everything. She's blending high art 00:12:04.230 --> 00:12:06.549 and counterculture freely. How'd that go over? 00:12:06.909 --> 00:12:09.090 Commercially, it was quieter on the main charts, 00:12:09.230 --> 00:12:11.789 peaked around 121, but it hit number eight on 00:12:11.789 --> 00:12:14.009 the contemporary jazz chart. So the jazz audience 00:12:14.009 --> 00:12:16.110 recognized what she was doing. And speaking of 00:12:16.110 --> 00:12:19.350 unexpected connections, the orb incident. Oh, 00:12:19.389 --> 00:12:22.149 yeah. Little Fluffy Clouds, that ambient house 00:12:22.149 --> 00:12:24.590 classic from 1990. It's built around these prominent 00:12:24.590 --> 00:12:26.669 samples of a Ricky Lee Jones interview. Which 00:12:26.669 --> 00:12:29.450 she didn't authorize. Apparently not. Her record 00:12:29.450 --> 00:12:33.120 company objected, led to a legal dispute. It's 00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:35.039 a funny little footnote, but it highlights that 00:12:35.039 --> 00:12:37.879 whole early 90s tension sampling culture versus 00:12:37.879 --> 00:12:41.019 artist control. The jazz gentoo is unexpectedly 00:12:41.019 --> 00:12:43.740 caught up in the dawn of electronic music sampling. 00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:46.940 Her own output kept diversifying, too. Traffic 00:12:46.940 --> 00:12:49.820 from Paradise in 93, collaborations, covers. 00:12:50.139 --> 00:12:52.919 Yeah, worked with Leo Kotke on that one and famously 00:12:52.919 --> 00:12:55.940 covered David Bowie's Rebel. And Bowie loved 00:12:55.940 --> 00:12:58.379 it. Said it was his favorite cover of his work, 00:12:58.460 --> 00:13:00.940 which is just incredible praise coming from Bowie. 00:13:01.139 --> 00:13:03.330 Apparently, she almost. the album boys don't 00:13:03.330 --> 00:13:05.629 cry after the cure song which she also considered 00:13:05.629 --> 00:13:08.230 covering that album also led to her first live 00:13:08.230 --> 00:13:12.049 acoustic record naked songs in 95. right stripped 00:13:12.049 --> 00:13:15.269 down versions of her classics no new songs just 00:13:15.269 --> 00:13:17.110 focusing on the core songwriting and performance 00:13:17.110 --> 00:13:19.409 really showcasing the strength of the material 00:13:19.409 --> 00:13:21.909 itself okay now we get to the big one yeah the 00:13:21.909 --> 00:13:25.289 most radical shift of the 90s ghosty head in 00:13:25.289 --> 00:13:29.090 1997 electronic music monumental leap is right 00:13:29.519 --> 00:13:31.860 She worked with Rick Boston on this. And it wasn't 00:13:31.860 --> 00:13:33.899 just adding a synth line here or there. We're 00:13:33.899 --> 00:13:37.240 talking beats, loops, electronic textures. The 00:13:37.240 --> 00:13:39.460 sources specifically connect it to the trip -hop 00:13:39.460 --> 00:13:42.620 movement. Trip -hop, like massive attack, poured 00:13:42.620 --> 00:13:46.440 his head. Moody, atmospheric, sample -heavy electronica. 00:13:46.539 --> 00:13:49.080 Exactly that sound. So imagine going from sophisticated 00:13:49.080 --> 00:13:52.440 jazz pop or acoustic songs to that. It was a 00:13:52.440 --> 00:13:55.039 complete sonic reinvention. How did people react 00:13:55.039 --> 00:13:58.210 to, well, the Duchess of Coolsville? Embracing 00:13:58.210 --> 00:14:00.789 Trip Hop. Critically, people admired the sheer 00:14:00.789 --> 00:14:03.970 nerve, the artistry. They got that she was pushing 00:14:03.970 --> 00:14:06.669 boundaries. But commercially? Right. Yeah, it 00:14:06.669 --> 00:14:09.090 struggled. Peaked way down at 159. Which really 00:14:09.090 --> 00:14:10.950 underscores her whole approach, doesn't it? Art 00:14:10.950 --> 00:14:14.909 first, commerce second. Or maybe third. Absolutely. 00:14:14.929 --> 00:14:17.250 She was following her muse, even if it meant 00:14:17.250 --> 00:14:19.389 leaving some listeners behind. That artistic 00:14:19.389 --> 00:14:22.269 curiosity trumped everything. And then, almost 00:14:22.269 --> 00:14:25.370 immediately, another pivot. Back to covers, it's 00:14:25.370 --> 00:14:28.090 like this, in 2000. Whiplash, from Trip Hop back 00:14:28.090 --> 00:14:31.070 to the Beatles, Steely Dan, Marvin Gaye, Gershwin. 00:14:31.309 --> 00:14:33.450 But this time, the covers album approach worked 00:14:33.450 --> 00:14:36.169 critically again. It did. Got her seventh Grammy 00:14:36.169 --> 00:14:39.129 nomination back in the Best Traditional Pop Vocal 00:14:39.129 --> 00:14:41.850 Album category in 2001. It's like she could just 00:14:41.850 --> 00:14:43.929 master these completely different styles whenever 00:14:43.929 --> 00:14:45.929 she felt like it. We should also mention that 00:14:45.929 --> 00:14:49.570 live album from 2001, Live at Red Rocks. There's 00:14:49.570 --> 00:14:52.279 a touching story about the cover art. Oh, yeah. 00:14:52.399 --> 00:14:54.460 The drawing of the flying horses. It was done 00:14:54.460 --> 00:14:56.620 by a young fan who had tragically died in an 00:14:56.620 --> 00:14:59.240 accident. Her parents gave the drawing to Ricky 00:14:59.240 --> 00:15:01.539 Lee at a show and she decided to use it for the 00:15:01.539 --> 00:15:04.299 album cover. A really personal, poignant gesture. 00:15:04.539 --> 00:15:06.940 And throughout the 90s and early 2000s, her music 00:15:06.940 --> 00:15:09.440 stayed present in films and TV, too. Definitely. 00:15:09.620 --> 00:15:13.019 30 -something, Frankie and Johnny, Jerry Maguire, 00:15:13.240 --> 00:15:15.620 even House. Her songs just fit certain moods 00:15:15.620 --> 00:15:18.419 perfectly. And she kept collaborating Lyle Lovett, 00:15:18.539 --> 00:15:21.759 Mellencamp, Kottke again, Arlo Guthrie. Okay, 00:15:21.820 --> 00:15:24.299 so that brings us past 2000. Into what feels 00:15:24.299 --> 00:15:26.759 like another phase, artistic renaissance maybe. 00:15:27.279 --> 00:15:30.100 More overtly political and spiritual themes start 00:15:30.100 --> 00:15:32.360 coming through. Yeah, after Ghosty Head and that 00:15:32.360 --> 00:15:34.600 burst of activity, she seemed to pull back again 00:15:34.600 --> 00:15:37.179 for a bit. Focused on raising her daughter, Charlotte, 00:15:37.340 --> 00:15:40.220 tending her garden, just grounding herself. And 00:15:40.220 --> 00:15:42.600 that grounding seems to have fueled what came 00:15:42.600 --> 00:15:46.080 next. It really feels that way. Because the evening 00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:48.879 of my best day in 2003 was musically diverse 00:15:48.879 --> 00:15:53.860 jazz, Celtic folk. blues, rock, gospel, all mixed 00:15:53.860 --> 00:15:57.039 together. But lyrically, it was incredibly direct. 00:15:57.179 --> 00:15:59.879 Her most political album yet. The song Ugly Man, 00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:02.659 being the prime example, aimed squarely at the 00:16:02.659 --> 00:16:05.340 George W. Bush administration. Squarely. And 00:16:05.340 --> 00:16:07.519 she used the music itself as part of the statement. 00:16:07.740 --> 00:16:09.659 She talked about using the Black Panther horns 00:16:09.659 --> 00:16:12.019 in the arrangement. Referencing Hugh Masakila. 00:16:12.200 --> 00:16:15.320 Exactly. Masakila's powerful, urgent, sometimes 00:16:15.320 --> 00:16:18.100 dissonant brass sound that was so tied to the 00:16:18.100 --> 00:16:20.139 anti -apartheid movement and political struggle. 00:16:20.600 --> 00:16:23.529 By invoking that specific sound she wasn't just 00:16:23.529 --> 00:16:26.409 singing protest lyrics the music itself was protest 00:16:26.409 --> 00:16:29.470 it ends with this call for revolution everywhere 00:16:29.470 --> 00:16:31.990 that you're not looking revolution very potent 00:16:31.990 --> 00:16:33.950 stuff and the collaborations were still eclectic 00:16:33.950 --> 00:16:36.190 mike watt from the minute men playing bass yeah 00:16:36.190 --> 00:16:38.750 on the track it takes you there punk rock bass 00:16:38.750 --> 00:16:41.870 legend on this jazzy politically charged album 00:16:41.870 --> 00:16:44.450 it just perfectly encapsulates her refusal to 00:16:44.450 --> 00:16:47.269 stay in one box then came probably her most conceptually 00:16:47.269 --> 00:16:50.679 ambitious project The sermon on Exposition Boulevard 00:16:50.679 --> 00:16:54.419 in 2007, based on the words of Christ. Yes, it 00:16:54.419 --> 00:16:56.480 stemmed from a project by her then -boyfriend, 00:16:56.559 --> 00:16:58.940 Lee Cantillon, who had a book called The Words. 00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:02.360 The initial idea was maybe having artists recite 00:17:02.360 --> 00:17:04.839 the text over music. But she took a completely 00:17:04.839 --> 00:17:07.299 different approach. A radical one. The sources 00:17:07.299 --> 00:17:09.920 say it had never been done like this. She didn't 00:17:09.920 --> 00:17:12.460 just recite. She used the text as a jumping off 00:17:12.460 --> 00:17:15.299 point for improvisation, stream of consciousness. 00:17:15.599 --> 00:17:18.220 She'd listen to the words and immediately improvise 00:17:18.220 --> 00:17:21.119 melody, lyrics, her own impressions right there 00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:22.920 in the studio. Wow. So it's not interpretation. 00:17:22.920 --> 00:17:26.380 It's almost channeling. Using ancient text as 00:17:26.380 --> 00:17:28.900 a prompt for spontaneous creation. Exactly. It's 00:17:28.900 --> 00:17:31.220 incredibly vulnerable, incredibly risky. You 00:17:31.220 --> 00:17:33.200 risk alienating religious listeners by being 00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:35.759 too free, secular listeners by engaging with 00:17:35.759 --> 00:17:38.319 the text at all. But the result is this raw, 00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:41.119 immediate, utterly unique piece of musical art. 00:17:41.259 --> 00:17:43.500 It bypasses traditional songwriting entirely. 00:17:44.099 --> 00:17:46.500 Moving into the 2010s, she continued weaving 00:17:46.500 --> 00:17:49.559 together personal history and new music, Balm, 00:17:49.559 --> 00:17:52.950 in Gilead in 2009. Yeah, that one felt very personal. 00:17:53.430 --> 00:17:55.730 Finishing old songs, some dating back to the 00:17:55.730 --> 00:17:58.769 mid -80s, like Wild Girl. And it included that 00:17:58.769 --> 00:18:00.750 song written by her father. The Moon is Made 00:18:00.750 --> 00:18:03.829 of Gold, written by Richard Jones back in 1954. 00:18:04.630 --> 00:18:06.990 Her recording, it felt like completing a circle, 00:18:07.109 --> 00:18:10.109 connecting back to those deep family roots. And 00:18:10.109 --> 00:18:12.690 again, great collaborators. Ben Harper, Alison 00:18:12.690 --> 00:18:15.670 Krauss, Vic Chestnut. Then another cover's album, 00:18:15.809 --> 00:18:18.900 The Devil. you know, in 2012, produced by Ben 00:18:18.900 --> 00:18:21.299 Harper. Right, including her take on Sympathy 00:18:21.299 --> 00:18:23.799 for the Devil. And shortly after that, another 00:18:23.799 --> 00:18:26.799 big life change. She left L .A. Moved to New 00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:29.420 Orleans. Yeah. Settling into the heartland of 00:18:29.420 --> 00:18:31.839 American jazz, which you can really hear in her 00:18:31.839 --> 00:18:34.440 next album of originals. The Other Side of Desire, 00:18:34.519 --> 00:18:37.390 2015. Her first all -new stuff in six years, 00:18:37.509 --> 00:18:40.049 steeped in that New Orleans sound. Definitely. 00:18:40.109 --> 00:18:42.029 There was even a documentary made about the making 00:18:42.029 --> 00:18:44.130 of that album, exploring how the city influenced 00:18:44.130 --> 00:18:46.529 the music. She kept the covers coming, too, with 00:18:46.529 --> 00:18:50.170 Kicks in 2019, covering Bad Company. Yeah, always 00:18:50.170 --> 00:18:52.009 surprising choices. And she played Glastonbury 00:18:52.009 --> 00:18:54.390 that year, too, still a major life force. Which 00:18:54.390 --> 00:18:56.869 brings us back to Pieces of Treasure in 2023. 00:18:57.670 --> 00:19:00.190 The great American songbook album, that eighth 00:19:00.190 --> 00:19:02.509 Grammy nomination, still interpreting, still 00:19:02.509 --> 00:19:04.750 performing at the highest level. It's an incredible 00:19:04.750 --> 00:19:06.970 arc. And alongside the music, there's also been 00:19:06.970 --> 00:19:09.769 this consistent thread of activism, of using 00:19:09.769 --> 00:19:11.809 her platform. Right, that web community she started 00:19:11.809 --> 00:19:14.329 back in 2001, Furniture for the People. Yeah, 00:19:14.390 --> 00:19:16.990 explicitly not a fan club, defined as a space 00:19:16.990 --> 00:19:19.589 for peace and activism. People discussed gardening, 00:19:19.809 --> 00:19:22.910 politics, exchanged bootlegs. It was about engagement. 00:19:23.269 --> 00:19:25.470 And this was before her most overtly political 00:19:25.470 --> 00:19:28.880 album. So that impulse was always there. Seems 00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:31.740 like it. A commitment to connecting her art to 00:19:31.740 --> 00:19:34.920 broader social issues. So if we try to wrap our 00:19:34.920 --> 00:19:37.500 heads around this whole career, the defining 00:19:37.500 --> 00:19:40.980 trait is just refusal to be categorized. The 00:19:40.980 --> 00:19:43.339 Grammys alone tell that story. Eight nominations, 00:19:43.740 --> 00:19:46.880 two wins. Best New Artist in 80, Best Jazz Vocal 00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:48.980 Performance in 90. But the nominations cover 00:19:48.980 --> 00:19:53.059 pop, rock, jazz, traditional pop. It's like she 00:19:53.059 --> 00:19:55.400 deliberately touched every base just to prove 00:19:55.400 --> 00:19:57.619 she could. She doesn't belong to a genre. She 00:19:57.619 --> 00:19:59.859 uses genres like tools or maybe costumes like 00:19:59.859 --> 00:20:03.099 you said to explore whatever idea fascinates 00:20:03.099 --> 00:20:05.819 her at that moment. That ability to move so fluidly 00:20:05.819 --> 00:20:08.319 is maybe the ultimate testament to her artistry. 00:20:08.359 --> 00:20:11.599 And her memoir Last Chance Texaco really provides 00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:13.700 the key to understanding it all. Absolutely. 00:20:13.759 --> 00:20:16.170 It connects the life. The troubadour upbringing, 00:20:16.470 --> 00:20:18.930 the sudden fame, the retreats, the restlessness 00:20:18.930 --> 00:20:21.309 to the art. You see why she's so theatrical, 00:20:21.470 --> 00:20:23.750 why she keeps reinventing herself. It all makes 00:20:23.750 --> 00:20:25.950 sense through the lens of her life story. It 00:20:25.950 --> 00:20:27.910 really brings it full circle back to Peg Lake 00:20:27.910 --> 00:20:30.490 Jones, the vaudevillian grandfather. That blend 00:20:30.490 --> 00:20:33.339 of performance, music, storytelling. It's been 00:20:33.339 --> 00:20:35.539 there all along. Across generations, from the 00:20:35.539 --> 00:20:37.519 vaudeville stage to the Venice coffee houses 00:20:37.519 --> 00:20:40.680 to the polished pop of flying cowboys, the electronic 00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:43.420 experiments of ghosty head, the political statements, 00:20:43.599 --> 00:20:46.859 the spiritual improvisations, that restless theatrical 00:20:46.859 --> 00:20:50.960 troubadour spirit is the constant thread. So 00:20:50.960 --> 00:20:52.799 for you, the listener, what's the big takeaway? 00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:55.299 What's her lasting legacy? Well, it makes you 00:20:55.299 --> 00:20:58.490 ask. How does someone become the Duchess of Coolsville, 00:20:58.650 --> 00:21:01.450 achieve massive fame, and then stay relevant 00:21:01.450 --> 00:21:03.970 for five decades without just repeating the formula? 00:21:04.230 --> 00:21:06.250 Right. She didn't just keep making Ricky Lee 00:21:06.250 --> 00:21:09.500 Jones Part 2, 3, and 4. Not even close. She did 00:21:09.500 --> 00:21:12.460 it by retreating when she needed to, by experimenting 00:21:12.460 --> 00:21:16.160 constantly, sometimes radically, by embracing 00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:19.519 change, even using sacred texts for improvisation. 00:21:19.720 --> 00:21:22.680 That complete commitment to artistic exploration 00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:25.079 over commercial safety. That's the legacy, the 00:21:25.079 --> 00:21:27.539 fearlessness. That's it, the constant self -reinvention. 00:21:27.759 --> 00:21:30.099 So if you're exploring her music, don't just 00:21:30.099 --> 00:21:32.859 listen to the debut. Put Flying Cowboys on with 00:21:32.859 --> 00:21:35.380 that smooth Walter Becker production, then jump 00:21:35.380 --> 00:21:37.200 straight to Ghostie Head. Hear the contrast. 00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:39.680 That journey across. Stiles is what makes Ricky 00:21:39.680 --> 00:21:40.859 Lee Jones truly remarkable.