WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.100 Welcome to the Deep Dive. Today we are attempting 00:00:03.100 --> 00:00:05.919 to solve, well maybe not solve, but certainly 00:00:05.919 --> 00:00:09.480 unpack one of the great creative paradoxes in 00:00:09.480 --> 00:00:11.660 modern entertainment. Yeah, we're diving into 00:00:11.660 --> 00:00:15.660 the wonderfully confusing, definitely multifaceted 00:00:15.660 --> 00:00:18.199 career of Timothy Richard Heidecker. Born in 00:00:18.199 --> 00:00:21.800 Allentown, Pennsylvania back in 1976. And usually... 00:00:22.010 --> 00:00:23.469 You know, when you hear Heidecker's name, the 00:00:23.469 --> 00:00:25.269 first thing people think is, oh, the Tim and 00:00:25.269 --> 00:00:28.170 Eric guy. Right. Half of that comedy duo. Exactly. 00:00:28.190 --> 00:00:30.649 But if you actually look closer, I mean, really 00:00:30.649 --> 00:00:33.590 dig into his body of work since the mid 90s. 00:00:34.109 --> 00:00:36.770 Comedian, writer, director, actor, podcaster, 00:00:36.829 --> 00:00:39.969 musician. That simple description just doesn't 00:00:39.969 --> 00:00:42.229 cut it. Not even close. We're talking about a 00:00:42.229 --> 00:00:44.950 true kind of restless, creative polymath here. 00:00:45.090 --> 00:00:47.409 And that's the core puzzle, really, that we want 00:00:47.409 --> 00:00:50.030 to explore for you, the listener. You might know 00:00:50.030 --> 00:00:53.719 him from that. Deeply surreal, often, let's be 00:00:53.719 --> 00:00:55.740 honest, uncomfortably cringe inducing comedy 00:00:55.740 --> 00:00:58.840 that basically defined a whole era of Adult Swim. 00:00:58.840 --> 00:01:00.380 Right. The stuff that made you squirm, but you 00:01:00.380 --> 00:01:03.000 couldn't look away. Yeah. But what happens when 00:01:03.000 --> 00:01:06.239 that same person, that same creative force then 00:01:06.239 --> 00:01:08.739 turns around and moves into like earnest folk 00:01:08.739 --> 00:01:12.709 music or serious political activism? Or lands 00:01:12.709 --> 00:01:15.909 these roles in prestige independent films. Yeah. 00:01:15.969 --> 00:01:18.150 How does that work? So our mission today is to 00:01:18.150 --> 00:01:21.030 take this, well, stack of sources detailing his 00:01:21.030 --> 00:01:23.409 entire trajectory, his whole path, and really 00:01:23.409 --> 00:01:26.590 unpack how he manages this extraordinary artistic 00:01:26.590 --> 00:01:29.230 tightrope walk. It's like he's living on both 00:01:29.230 --> 00:01:31.109 ends of the spectrum at once. That's exactly 00:01:31.109 --> 00:01:34.030 it. We'll show how Heidecker consistently operates 00:01:34.030 --> 00:01:36.989 simultaneously at these two extreme ends. You've 00:01:36.989 --> 00:01:39.489 got the pure, almost performance art absurdity 00:01:39.489 --> 00:01:42.629 on one side. And then genuine, sometimes painfully 00:01:42.629 --> 00:01:44.989 sincere work on the other. And the trick or what 00:01:44.989 --> 00:01:46.450 we're sort of discovering as we look through 00:01:46.450 --> 00:01:49.170 this is that for him, that ironic persona, it's 00:01:49.170 --> 00:01:51.409 often just another tool. Cool. For what, though? 00:01:51.450 --> 00:01:54.290 For social critique, for commentary. It's all 00:01:54.290 --> 00:01:56.489 part of the package, just different facets. OK, 00:01:56.569 --> 00:01:58.469 so let's start at the beginning where this whole 00:01:58.469 --> 00:02:02.810 universe kind of began the foundation, that creative 00:02:02.810 --> 00:02:04.890 partnership between Timothy Heidecker and Eric 00:02:04.890 --> 00:02:07.250 Wareheim. Right. It really started as a college 00:02:07.250 --> 00:02:09.729 collaboration, didn't it? But it's solidified. 00:02:09.960 --> 00:02:12.680 into this incredibly distinct voice very quickly. 00:02:12.939 --> 00:02:14.919 Tell us about those origins. Where did it kick 00:02:14.919 --> 00:02:17.520 off? Well, it truly began on the East Coast. 00:02:18.020 --> 00:02:19.759 Heidecker, as you said, grew up in Allentown, 00:02:19.860 --> 00:02:22.439 Pennsylvania, went to Allentown Central Catholic 00:02:22.439 --> 00:02:24.740 High School. So he's got that specific sort of 00:02:24.740 --> 00:02:27.900 regional sensibility baked in. But his creative 00:02:27.900 --> 00:02:31.139 life really ignited when he enrolled at Temple 00:02:31.139 --> 00:02:33.120 University in Philadelphia. That's the crucial 00:02:33.120 --> 00:02:35.719 place. That's where he connected with Eric Wareheim. 00:02:35.919 --> 00:02:38.819 And this wasn't just like bumping into each other 00:02:38.819 --> 00:02:41.169 in the hallway. no no the sources make it clear 00:02:41.169 --> 00:02:43.849 this was the start of a professional partnership 00:02:43.849 --> 00:02:46.409 a really intense one that's basically remained 00:02:46.409 --> 00:02:49.750 active and creatively evolving from 1996 right 00:02:49.750 --> 00:02:52.610 up to today wow nearly three decades that's yeah 00:02:52.610 --> 00:02:54.789 that's rare especially in comedy it really is 00:02:54.789 --> 00:02:58.050 sustained sometimes uh apparently quite painful 00:02:58.050 --> 00:03:00.629 collaboration comedy partnerships often burn 00:03:00.629 --> 00:03:03.870 out but this one has endured and frankly kept 00:03:03.870 --> 00:03:06.250 changing and the style they developed together 00:03:06.250 --> 00:03:08.250 it just immediately stood out didn't it defined 00:03:08.250 --> 00:03:11.229 by like Low production values, real discomfort, 00:03:11.409 --> 00:03:14.270 and what we now just call cringe. Oh, absolutely. 00:03:14.409 --> 00:03:17.949 And their first major breakthrough project really 00:03:17.949 --> 00:03:20.990 embodies that. Tom Goes to the Mayor. That ran 00:03:20.990 --> 00:03:23.949 from 2004 to 2006. Right. Tom Goes to the Mayor. 00:03:24.210 --> 00:03:27.300 Explain that format, because it was... Unique. 00:03:27.319 --> 00:03:29.719 Unique is putting it mildly. It wasn't just low 00:03:29.719 --> 00:03:32.120 budget. It was a whole conceptual statement. 00:03:32.460 --> 00:03:35.180 The sources describe it as limited animation. 00:03:35.520 --> 00:03:38.199 What that actually means is they used live action 00:03:38.199 --> 00:03:40.620 footage, but then heavily manipulated it, like 00:03:40.620 --> 00:03:44.319 photocopied, crudely cut into still images, basic 00:03:44.319 --> 00:03:46.360 movements. Yeah, I remember that look. Almost 00:03:46.360 --> 00:03:48.560 like a living, breathing, slightly horrifying 00:03:48.560 --> 00:03:51.560 Xerox copy. Exactly. The effect was deliberately 00:03:51.560 --> 00:03:53.960 cheap, definitely unsettling, and it perfectly 00:03:53.960 --> 00:03:56.699 matched the show's, well, pretty bleak. bureaucratic 00:03:56.699 --> 00:03:59.259 premise. That visual style felt just as important 00:03:59.259 --> 00:04:01.699 as the jokes, didn't it? It kind of amplified 00:04:01.699 --> 00:04:04.099 that sense of existential dread that ran underneath 00:04:04.099 --> 00:04:07.319 everything. Totally. You had Tom, played by Heidecker, 00:04:07.439 --> 00:04:10.460 always coming up with these, you know, well -meaning 00:04:10.460 --> 00:04:12.919 but fundamentally flawed ideas. He'd bring them 00:04:12.919 --> 00:04:15.060 to the mayor, played by Werheim. And the mayor. 00:04:15.180 --> 00:04:18.279 Oh, man. The mayor would inevitably and often 00:04:18.279 --> 00:04:22.339 just cruelly derail Tom's life plans. It felt 00:04:22.339 --> 00:04:25.019 like watching this small -town guy just drowning 00:04:25.019 --> 00:04:28.920 in... bad ideas and even worse, local government 00:04:28.920 --> 00:04:31.600 infrastructure. Like a perfect little microcosm 00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:34.660 of, I don't know, bureaucracy, incompetence, 00:04:34.660 --> 00:04:37.259 maybe that kind of unfulfilled American optimism 00:04:37.259 --> 00:04:40.360 all filtered through this really strange melted 00:04:40.360 --> 00:04:42.699 graphic style. That's a great way to put it. 00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:44.920 And what's fascinating here, especially for understanding 00:04:44.920 --> 00:04:47.160 their drive, is how they got the show made. They 00:04:47.160 --> 00:04:49.000 weren't just, you know, waiting for network meetings. 00:04:49.100 --> 00:04:50.879 No, they took a much more direct route. Almost 00:04:50.879 --> 00:04:53.680 punk rock in a way. Precisely. And the key figure 00:04:53.680 --> 00:04:56.040 here, according to the sources, is Bob Odenkirk. 00:04:56.220 --> 00:04:58.339 He eventually became the executive producer. 00:04:58.639 --> 00:05:02.079 The Bob Odenkirk. Saul Goodman, Mr. Show. That's 00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:05.000 the one. Apparently, Heidecker and Wareheim literally 00:05:05.000 --> 00:05:07.360 just mailed copies of an early version of the 00:05:07.360 --> 00:05:10.220 show directly to Odenkirk. Unsolicited. Wow. 00:05:10.360 --> 00:05:13.220 Just cold mailed them. Yeah, that level of like 00:05:13.220 --> 00:05:16.660 grassroots hustle, just sending your weird show 00:05:16.660 --> 00:05:20.379 to a major industry figure, it shows how committed 00:05:20.379 --> 00:05:22.399 they were right from the start. And Odenkirk, 00:05:22.500 --> 00:05:25.000 already a comedy titan, you know, from Mr. Show, 00:05:25.240 --> 00:05:28.360 he recognized the unique genius in it. He must 00:05:28.360 --> 00:05:30.259 have seen something really special. He did. He 00:05:30.259 --> 00:05:32.759 signed on as executive producer and crucially 00:05:32.759 --> 00:05:35.959 helped sell the project to Adult Swim. That endorsement, 00:05:35.959 --> 00:05:37.699 that belief from someone like Odenkirk was the 00:05:37.699 --> 00:05:40.339 real launchpad. And that launchpad led them pretty 00:05:40.339 --> 00:05:43.740 much directly to arguably their magnum opus of 00:05:43.740 --> 00:05:46.500 absurdity. Tim and Eric, awesome show. Great 00:05:46.500 --> 00:05:49.819 job. Yes, awesome show. This show, premiering 00:05:49.819 --> 00:05:53.180 in 2007, running through 2010, it basically cemented 00:05:53.180 --> 00:05:56.079 them as the absolute masters of surrealist public 00:05:56.079 --> 00:05:58.379 access television parody, didn't it? It really 00:05:58.379 --> 00:06:00.459 did. An Awesome Show was a massive stylistic 00:06:00.459 --> 00:06:03.100 leap from Tom Goes to the Mayor. It moved beyond 00:06:03.100 --> 00:06:05.360 that limited animation thing and just exploded 00:06:05.360 --> 00:06:08.579 into this sprawling, manic sketch. They did everything 00:06:08.579 --> 00:06:11.860 on it. Pretty much. They created, wrote, and 00:06:11.860 --> 00:06:15.199 starred in this huge gallery of bizarre characters. 00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:19.199 For anyone listening who hasn't seen it. Well, 00:06:19.240 --> 00:06:20.959 the sources make it really clear that the humor 00:06:20.959 --> 00:06:23.500 thrives on intentional awkwardness. Oh, yeah. 00:06:23.639 --> 00:06:27.060 Maximum awkwardness. Gross out visual dags, deliberately 00:06:27.060 --> 00:06:30.240 bad editing, terrible special effects. It was 00:06:30.240 --> 00:06:32.879 a complete rejection of polished mainstream comedy. 00:06:33.019 --> 00:06:36.459 Think about recurring bits like Cinco. Oh, Cinco. 00:06:36.639 --> 00:06:40.360 The corporation selling those completely bizarre, 00:06:40.740 --> 00:06:43.920 useless, often genuinely dangerous products. 00:06:44.220 --> 00:06:46.949 Right. Like the My New Pe - pep or the tiered 00:06:46.949 --> 00:06:49.509 or unsettling characters like spaget the guy 00:06:49.509 --> 00:06:51.230 just pops out and surprises people sometimes 00:06:51.230 --> 00:06:53.790 gets them with spaghetti badgett yeah just shouting 00:06:53.790 --> 00:06:56.149 his name it wasn't just funny though was it it 00:06:56.149 --> 00:06:58.629 often felt genuinely disturbing definitely it 00:06:58.629 --> 00:07:00.209 really challenged the viewer you were constantly 00:07:00.209 --> 00:07:02.189 asking is this supposed to be art is this just 00:07:02.189 --> 00:07:04.250 a mistake am i having some kind of neurological 00:07:04.250 --> 00:07:06.649 event watching this it was a calculated discomfort 00:07:06.649 --> 00:07:08.970 for sure and that's what gave them such a huge 00:07:08.970 --> 00:07:12.610 cult following and this commitment to that sort 00:07:12.610 --> 00:07:16.089 of anti -art ethos, it quickly branched out beyond 00:07:16.089 --> 00:07:18.829 TV sketches. They leveraged the show's success 00:07:18.829 --> 00:07:21.889 to make Tim and Eric's billion dollar movie in 00:07:21.889 --> 00:07:25.000 2012. Ah, the movie. How does that translate? 00:07:25.199 --> 00:07:27.100 Well, it was basically an extension of their 00:07:27.100 --> 00:07:29.180 aesthetic onto the big screen. Heidecker wasn't 00:07:29.180 --> 00:07:31.160 just starring. He wrote, directed and produced 00:07:31.160 --> 00:07:33.920 it. It was, in essence, a parody of the whole 00:07:33.920 --> 00:07:36.379 Hollywood vanity project idea. Complete with 00:07:36.379 --> 00:07:38.680 disastrous financial outcomes in the plot. Right. 00:07:38.720 --> 00:07:42.240 And just truly bizarre storylines. Exactly. So 00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:44.579 if Awesome Show was this kind of hyper edited 00:07:44.579 --> 00:07:47.920 maximalist chaos, where did they go next? Because 00:07:47.920 --> 00:07:49.899 they didn't just stop there. Right. What came 00:07:49.899 --> 00:07:52.139 after the movie? They pivoted again. They went 00:07:52.139 --> 00:07:54.500 into this more contained. much darker universe 00:07:54.500 --> 00:07:56.879 with Tim and Eric's bedtime stories. Bedtime 00:07:56.879 --> 00:07:58.860 stories, yeah. That felt different. It really 00:07:58.860 --> 00:08:01.259 did. It was an anthology horror series, ran from 00:08:01.259 --> 00:08:04.740 2013 to 2017. It traded that frenetic sketch 00:08:04.740 --> 00:08:07.480 structure for something, well, darker, more contained, 00:08:07.800 --> 00:08:10.199 almost lynching in feel sometimes. Like little 00:08:10.199 --> 00:08:13.860 unsettling nightmares. Exactly. A series of genuinely 00:08:13.860 --> 00:08:17.000 unsettling, often quite horrifying vignettes. 00:08:17.180 --> 00:08:19.899 And this really showed their ability to adapt 00:08:19.899 --> 00:08:23.089 their core aesthetic to a more serious... narrative 00:08:23.089 --> 00:08:25.589 structure even if the narratives themselves were 00:08:25.589 --> 00:08:28.009 still completely bizarre and they even circled 00:08:28.009 --> 00:08:30.670 back briefly to pure sitcom structure didn't 00:08:30.670 --> 00:08:33.830 they yeah with beef house in 2020 almost like 00:08:33.830 --> 00:08:37.049 parodying the very genre they'd spent a decade 00:08:37.049 --> 00:08:39.620 dismantling They're just relentlessly committed 00:08:39.620 --> 00:08:42.820 to satirizing basically every existing TV format, 00:08:42.879 --> 00:08:44.860 it seems. And their collaborations, they weren't 00:08:44.860 --> 00:08:46.740 just restricted to their main shows either. Right, 00:08:46.779 --> 00:08:48.600 they popped up elsewhere too. Yeah, their reach 00:08:48.600 --> 00:08:51.100 into the whole alternative comedy scene is huge. 00:08:51.320 --> 00:08:53.360 You see them appearing in things like The Young 00:08:53.360 --> 00:08:55.620 Person's Guide to History special, playing debt 00:08:55.620 --> 00:08:58.139 collectors, I think. And even a guest spot in 00:08:58.139 --> 00:09:00.659 the movie Let's Go to Prison. But maybe more 00:09:00.659 --> 00:09:03.120 importantly, they became kind of industry curators, 00:09:03.179 --> 00:09:06.080 didn't they? You mean with Josh? Exactly. Alongside 00:09:06.080 --> 00:09:08.649 Sarah Silverman, Michael - Sarah and Reggie Watts, 00:09:08.789 --> 00:09:11.529 all these significant, really unique voices in 00:09:11.529 --> 00:09:13.809 their own right. They co -created the YouTube 00:09:13.809 --> 00:09:15.950 channel, Josh. That felt like a big deal at the 00:09:15.950 --> 00:09:18.750 time. It was. It wasn't just another content 00:09:18.750 --> 00:09:22.289 outlet. It really solidified them as foundational 00:09:22.289 --> 00:09:25.570 figures in that burgeoning digital alternative 00:09:25.570 --> 00:09:28.330 comedy space. They were using their established 00:09:28.330 --> 00:09:30.690 brand, their Tim and Ericness, to lift up other 00:09:30.690 --> 00:09:33.230 weird, interesting voices. So it's safe to say 00:09:33.230 --> 00:09:35.450 by the time we hit the mid 2010s, they'd pretty 00:09:35.450 --> 00:09:38.740 much mastered. That short form, high cringe, 00:09:38.980 --> 00:09:42.139 absurdist sketch world. Absolutely. But once 00:09:42.139 --> 00:09:44.000 that was mastered, well, that seems to be when 00:09:44.000 --> 00:09:46.100 Heidecker realized he could commit to a single 00:09:46.100 --> 00:09:49.000 character, but make it much longer, even more 00:09:49.000 --> 00:09:51.340 painfully layered. Okay, that's a perfect transition. 00:09:51.460 --> 00:09:53.639 Because once that Tim and Eric universe provided 00:09:53.639 --> 00:09:57.139 the bedrock, Heidecker launched what might be 00:09:57.139 --> 00:10:00.600 his defining solo project. One that really elevates 00:10:00.600 --> 00:10:03.480 parody into this exhausting, years -long form 00:10:03.480 --> 00:10:05.440 of performance art. You have to be talking about 00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:07.399 the onset. cinema at the cinema universe exactly 00:10:07.399 --> 00:10:09.659 this is where the comedy starts to really blur 00:10:09.659 --> 00:10:12.799 lines merging with deep cultural commentary political 00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:15.500 stuff tell us about this beast it's a lot it 00:10:15.500 --> 00:10:17.740 is a lot and on cinema is just extraordinary 00:10:17.740 --> 00:10:20.779 because of the sheer commitment it's a commitment 00:10:20.779 --> 00:10:24.539 to a single evolving joke that has now spanned 00:10:24.539 --> 00:10:28.419 over a decade kicking off back in 2012 and how 00:10:28.419 --> 00:10:30.610 did it start Pretty simply, right? Yeah, it began 00:10:30.610 --> 00:10:33.309 innocently enough just a parodic web series, 00:10:33.570 --> 00:10:36.210 then a podcast supposedly about film review. 00:10:36.470 --> 00:10:39.809 But it quickly morphed into this sprawling, completely 00:10:39.809 --> 00:10:42.629 self -contained fictional universe. And what's 00:10:42.629 --> 00:10:45.190 it really about? Because it's not really about 00:10:45.190 --> 00:10:48.269 movies. Not at all. It became this platform for 00:10:48.269 --> 00:10:51.830 critiquing things like media literacy or the 00:10:51.830 --> 00:10:55.149 lack thereof, unqualified punditry. Political 00:10:55.149 --> 00:10:57.909 polarization all filtered through these two characters. 00:10:58.049 --> 00:11:00.889 The character, the genius of it really lies in 00:11:00.889 --> 00:11:02.409 that central tension, doesn't it? You've got 00:11:02.409 --> 00:11:04.210 the character Tim Heidecker. Right. Who becomes 00:11:04.210 --> 00:11:06.610 increasingly arrogant, completely obsessed with 00:11:06.610 --> 00:11:09.789 his own bizarre health fads, politically agitated, 00:11:09.889 --> 00:11:11.950 often sort of violently nationalist. And yet 00:11:11.950 --> 00:11:14.789 completely, utterly unqualified to review films. 00:11:14.950 --> 00:11:17.470 He barely seems to watch them. He really doesn't. 00:11:17.470 --> 00:11:19.330 And he's constantly warring with his quote unquote 00:11:19.330 --> 00:11:21.950 guest star, Greg Turkington. Playing Greg Turkington, 00:11:21.990 --> 00:11:24.710 the film buff. Yes. Who plays this incredibly 00:11:24.710 --> 00:11:29.389 pedantic, detail obsessed movie buff. But his 00:11:29.389 --> 00:11:32.470 idea of film criticism is like knowing the exact 00:11:32.470 --> 00:11:35.570 runtime and maybe the aspect ratio of The Hobbit. 00:11:35.669 --> 00:11:38.830 Or cataloging his massive VHS collection. Precisely. 00:11:38.830 --> 00:11:41.549 And their total inability to ever effectively 00:11:41.549 --> 00:11:43.950 review a movie or frankly even hold a polite 00:11:43.950 --> 00:11:46.730 conversation. That's the core humor. It's like 00:11:46.730 --> 00:11:50.320 this horrifying study into. incompatible American 00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:53.519 egos just trapped in a room broadcast to the 00:11:53.519 --> 00:11:55.659 world. It feels like such a profound critique 00:11:55.659 --> 00:11:58.200 of the Internet age, doesn't it? The Tim Heidecker 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:01.399 character seems to embody all the worst aspects 00:12:01.399 --> 00:12:03.440 of the modern media personality. Oh, absolutely. 00:12:03.620 --> 00:12:06.320 Loud, completely confidently wrong about everything, 00:12:06.519 --> 00:12:09.200 easily influenced by conspiracy theories, totally 00:12:09.200 --> 00:12:11.620 incapable of listening to anyone else. It's chillingly 00:12:11.620 --> 00:12:13.860 accurate sometimes. It is. But it's more than 00:12:13.860 --> 00:12:15.960 just a critique. It's the sustained immersion. 00:12:16.340 --> 00:12:18.840 The commitment is what truly sets it apart. from 00:12:18.840 --> 00:12:20.840 just a sketch. They didn't just do the podcast. 00:12:21.039 --> 00:12:23.200 No, they went way beyond that. They created the 00:12:23.200 --> 00:12:26.980 On Cinema Film Guide app back in 2013. And get 00:12:26.980 --> 00:12:30.940 this. It features their voices in character supposedly 00:12:30.940 --> 00:12:36.200 reviewing over 17 ,000 films. 17 ,000. That's 00:12:36.200 --> 00:12:39.840 insane. Imagine the sheer painstaking labor involved 00:12:39.840 --> 00:12:43.649 in cataloging that many films probably writing 00:12:43.649 --> 00:12:46.549 terrible, short, useless reviews for them purely 00:12:46.549 --> 00:12:48.970 for the sake of this joke about incompetence. 00:12:49.090 --> 00:12:50.909 That definitely elevates it from just sketch 00:12:50.909 --> 00:12:53.629 comedy to something more like conceptual art. 00:12:53.710 --> 00:12:56.360 Yeah, or maybe endurance art. for them in the 00:12:56.360 --> 00:12:58.320 audience. And the universe just kept expanding 00:12:58.320 --> 00:13:01.299 aggressively. It spilled out into like real world 00:13:01.299 --> 00:13:03.879 legal drama within the narrative. A whole Electric 00:13:03.879 --> 00:13:06.559 Sun Desert Music Festival trial. Exactly. The 00:13:06.559 --> 00:13:08.539 fictional character Tim Heidecker went through 00:13:08.539 --> 00:13:10.740 this highly publicized murder trial for which 00:13:10.740 --> 00:13:13.019 he was naturally acquitted in the show's reality. 00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:15.240 And then what does he do? He decides to run for 00:13:15.240 --> 00:13:17.539 district attorney in San Bernardino County, California. 00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:21.200 Which led to the movie Mr. America. Right. The 00:13:21.200 --> 00:13:25.220 2019 feature film Mr. America. Heidecker wrote 00:13:25.220 --> 00:13:27.360 and produced it, and it follows his character's 00:13:27.360 --> 00:13:30.460 pathetic, completely narcissistic campaign. This 00:13:30.460 --> 00:13:32.440 blending of the fictional narrative with the 00:13:32.440 --> 00:13:35.519 actual reality of producing a feature film it 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:38.259 just further solidified the whole universe as 00:13:38.259 --> 00:13:40.899 this complex self -aware piece of meta media 00:13:40.899 --> 00:13:43.500 you're constantly forced as the audience yeah 00:13:43.500 --> 00:13:45.740 to question that boundary right where does the 00:13:45.740 --> 00:13:47.600 actor end and the character begin constantly 00:13:47.600 --> 00:13:49.539 and speaking of self -aware he launched another 00:13:49.539 --> 00:13:51.639 long -running project around the same time but 00:13:51.639 --> 00:13:54.100 with a different vibe office hours live with 00:13:54.100 --> 00:13:56.419 tim heidegger OK, so how does Office Hours differ 00:13:56.419 --> 00:13:59.440 from the, you know, very structured and often 00:13:59.440 --> 00:14:01.840 heavily scripted world of on cinema? Well, Office 00:14:01.840 --> 00:14:04.860 Hours Live, which started in 2016 and is co -hosted 00:14:04.860 --> 00:14:07.779 with DJ Doug Pound and Vic Berger, key collaborators. 00:14:08.120 --> 00:14:10.940 It shifts away from that fixed character persona 00:14:10.940 --> 00:14:13.850 of Tim Heidecker. So it's more. Him. It seems 00:14:13.850 --> 00:14:15.950 closer to him. Yes. While it's still definitely 00:14:15.950 --> 00:14:18.690 improvised and comedic, it feels much more immediately 00:14:18.690 --> 00:14:20.610 responsive to current events. It's basically 00:14:20.610 --> 00:14:24.549 a weekly call in show podcast web series. All 00:14:24.549 --> 00:14:27.129 of the above. Yeah. And they feature phone calls, 00:14:27.370 --> 00:14:30.789 video calls with fans, other comedians, musicians 00:14:30.789 --> 00:14:32.950 and sometimes, you know, quite serious political 00:14:32.950 --> 00:14:35.809 commentators. So it's less about inhabiting this 00:14:35.809 --> 00:14:39.080 one specific. awful character and more about 00:14:39.080 --> 00:14:42.259 using his own comedic lens to kind of filter 00:14:42.259 --> 00:14:45.340 the chaotic real world as it's happening. Exactly. 00:14:45.399 --> 00:14:47.759 It gives him a different avenue for his, you 00:14:47.759 --> 00:14:50.200 know, very quick -witted, often politically charged 00:14:50.200 --> 00:14:53.139 perspective, but more directly because it's live, 00:14:53.279 --> 00:14:55.320 takes calls, the energy is much more chaotic, 00:14:55.379 --> 00:14:58.720 spontaneous. Right. It allows him to use parody 00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:01.639 and a sense of humor as a tool for maybe real 00:15:01.639 --> 00:15:04.519 -time agitation or commentary rather than that 00:15:04.519 --> 00:15:06.440 long -form character study we see in cinema. 00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:08.700 It just shows his versatility using different 00:15:08.700 --> 00:15:10.840 platforms for different kinds of critique. And 00:15:10.840 --> 00:15:13.659 then sticking with solo comedy, we... Absolutely 00:15:13.659 --> 00:15:16.279 have to talk about that specific stand -up special 00:15:16.279 --> 00:15:18.279 that just completely deconstructed the whole 00:15:18.279 --> 00:15:21.340 medium. An evening with Tim Heidecker from 2020. 00:15:21.720 --> 00:15:25.080 Oh, wow. That's special. This felt like metacomedy 00:15:25.080 --> 00:15:27.519 reaching its absolute peak. It really forces 00:15:27.519 --> 00:15:29.440 the audience to grapple with the meaning of performance 00:15:29.440 --> 00:15:32.320 itself, doesn't it? Completely. If you tuned 00:15:32.320 --> 00:15:34.659 into that special on YouTube expecting, you know, 00:15:34.659 --> 00:15:38.559 traditional jokes set up punchline, you were 00:15:38.559 --> 00:15:40.840 immediately just thrown off balance. Totally 00:15:40.840 --> 00:15:43.529 disoriented. The entire entire... as the sources 00:15:43.529 --> 00:15:46.549 explain it, was a deliberate, full -on parody 00:15:46.549 --> 00:15:49.470 of the typical stand -up format. Heidecker is 00:15:49.470 --> 00:15:51.730 playing the ultimate hack stand -up comic. Just 00:15:51.730 --> 00:15:54.190 the worst possible version. Yeah, a character 00:15:54.190 --> 00:15:57.409 who is breathtakingly incompetent. He's relying 00:15:57.409 --> 00:16:00.649 on painfully outdated material, terrible impressions, 00:16:00.769 --> 00:16:04.070 this overly self -assured stage presence that 00:16:04.070 --> 00:16:06.509 just completely fails to land a single punchline. 00:16:06.549 --> 00:16:08.950 It's painful. The comedy is actually achieved 00:16:08.950 --> 00:16:12.919 through the... total abject failure of the performance 00:16:12.919 --> 00:16:16.000 itself. It's like it asks the viewer, what are 00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:17.519 your baseline expectations for entertainment? 00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:20.120 Okay, here's the absolute opposite of that. Enjoy 00:16:20.120 --> 00:16:22.200 the discomfort. The discomfort is the punchline. 00:16:22.240 --> 00:16:24.220 It's an exhausting watch, honestly, but it's 00:16:24.220 --> 00:16:26.519 kind of brilliant in its conception. It's a critique 00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:29.360 of the whole stand -up industrial complex, maybe. 00:16:29.639 --> 00:16:31.799 Yeah, and that sort of self -help guru thing 00:16:31.799 --> 00:16:34.950 some comics lean into. Right. And just the mediocrity 00:16:34.950 --> 00:16:37.789 that often gets rewarded. It's a really my concept 00:16:37.789 --> 00:16:40.769 piece that demands the audience be in on the 00:16:40.769 --> 00:16:43.690 joke that, well, that there is no actual joke 00:16:43.690 --> 00:16:46.029 being told on stage. The joke is the performance 00:16:46.029 --> 00:16:48.710 of the bad comedian. It's clear this directorial 00:16:48.710 --> 00:16:51.889 eye, this knack for parody, extends beyond just 00:16:51.889 --> 00:16:55.210 his own projects, too. He's successfully injected 00:16:55.210 --> 00:16:58.149 this aesthetic into major advertising campaigns, 00:16:58.309 --> 00:17:00.720 which is kind of wild. Absolutely. He clearly 00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:02.720 has the sophisticated understanding of different 00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:05.920 media formats and how to subvert them, even for 00:17:05.920 --> 00:17:08.180 commercial purposes. Like, he collaborated with 00:17:08.180 --> 00:17:10.640 Zach Galifianakis on that series of short films 00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:12.519 for Absolute Vodka's website. Right, I remember 00:17:12.519 --> 00:17:14.640 those. Proving he could work within that branded 00:17:14.640 --> 00:17:16.500 content space with other established mainstream 00:17:16.500 --> 00:17:20.420 comedians. And crucially, with Wareheim, he directed 00:17:20.420 --> 00:17:22.880 that highly memorable series of Old Spice commercials, 00:17:23.240 --> 00:17:25.940 the one starring Terry Crews. Oh, yeah. the hyper 00:17:25.940 --> 00:17:28.700 intense exploding ones exactly those commercials 00:17:28.700 --> 00:17:31.819 perfectly utilize the tim and eric aesthetic 00:17:31.819 --> 00:17:34.339 you know the abrupt cuts the hyper masculine 00:17:34.339 --> 00:17:36.819 absurdity cranked way up that sense of digital 00:17:36.819 --> 00:17:39.460 surrealism and they were huge they were huge 00:17:39.460 --> 00:17:42.759 it proved their bizarre style could actually 00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:46.220 sell deodorant which speaks volumes really about 00:17:46.220 --> 00:17:49.420 their ability to manage that absurdity while 00:17:49.420 --> 00:17:52.140 still meeting, you know, corporate objectives, 00:17:52.480 --> 00:17:55.160 that's a tricky balance. Okay, so here's where 00:17:55.160 --> 00:17:57.359 that split identity we talked about becomes truly, 00:17:57.400 --> 00:18:00.839 almost jarringly apparent. Because while Heidecker 00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:04.019 was busy perfecting this persona of the incompetent, 00:18:04.019 --> 00:18:06.779 often disgusting, maybe morally bankrupt character 00:18:06.779 --> 00:18:09.220 in his own comedy universes. Right, the hack 00:18:09.220 --> 00:18:12.000 comedian, the terrible pundit. Exactly. He was 00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:15.160 simultaneously, almost quietly, carving out this 00:18:15.160 --> 00:18:17.390 whole parallel career as a serious character 00:18:17.390 --> 00:18:20.109 actor yeah how does the guy who co -wrote a film 00:18:20.109 --> 00:18:21.890 literally called tim and eric's billion dollar 00:18:21.890 --> 00:18:24.390 movie suddenly turn up in like the most talked 00:18:24.390 --> 00:18:26.519 about independent drama of the year It's a huge 00:18:26.519 --> 00:18:28.720 question. Did the audience even buy it? Could 00:18:28.720 --> 00:18:31.079 they separate the two? And that is the central 00:18:31.079 --> 00:18:33.039 shock, I think, when you look at his filmography 00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:35.539 outside of the Tim and Eric bubble. He had to 00:18:35.539 --> 00:18:37.259 somehow convince people to take him seriously 00:18:37.259 --> 00:18:39.619 as an actor, completely divorced from that established, 00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:42.579 very specific comedic sensibility. And the sources 00:18:42.579 --> 00:18:45.539 suggest he largely succeeded. So we see him transition 00:18:45.539 --> 00:18:48.259 pretty smoothly, actually, into supporting roles 00:18:48.259 --> 00:18:50.960 in some massive studio films. Definitely. Let's 00:18:50.960 --> 00:18:53.380 look at some of the big ones. He was in Bridesmaids 00:18:53.380 --> 00:18:56.180 back in 2011. Right. Dougie. Playing Dougie, 00:18:56.200 --> 00:18:58.880 yeah. Which was, you know, a pivotal moment in 00:18:58.880 --> 00:19:01.200 modern mainstream comedy itself. And it was a 00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:03.400 straight comedy role, but one that required him 00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:05.460 to fit comfortably into a traditional studio 00:19:05.460 --> 00:19:07.799 production framework. No weird editing allowed. 00:19:08.099 --> 00:19:10.359 And he didn't stop there. He's even in the MCU. 00:19:10.599 --> 00:19:13.460 He is. He has credits in the Marvel Cinematic 00:19:13.460 --> 00:19:16.799 Universe. He appeared as Captain Daniel Goobler 00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:20.440 in Ant -Man and the Wasp in 2018. Captain Goobler. 00:19:20.500 --> 00:19:23.059 Even the name sounds like it belongs in an awesome 00:19:23.059 --> 00:19:26.380 show sketch. Right. And yet the context is entirely 00:19:26.380 --> 00:19:30.240 mainstream Marvel blockbuster. That ability to 00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:32.940 just embody both extremes, sometimes simultaneously, 00:19:33.039 --> 00:19:35.839 it seems like his superpower. It really is. And 00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:37.500 further cementing those mainstream credentials, 00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:40.589 he took on... a pretty significant role in Jordan 00:19:40.589 --> 00:19:44.390 Peele's acclaimed horror film Us in 2019. Oh, 00:19:44.410 --> 00:19:46.609 yeah. He played Josh Tyler and then the tethered 00:19:46.609 --> 00:19:49.309 version Tex. That was a serious role in a serious 00:19:49.309 --> 00:19:51.829 film. Absolutely. And these roles, Bridesmaids, 00:19:51.829 --> 00:19:54.849 Ant -Man, Us, they confirm that he possesses 00:19:54.849 --> 00:19:56.950 the range and frankly, the discipline required 00:19:56.950 --> 00:19:59.869 by major directors operating far outside the 00:19:59.869 --> 00:20:02.029 self -directed chaos of his own sketch work. 00:20:02.250 --> 00:20:05.490 But the true pivot point, maybe the role that 00:20:05.490 --> 00:20:07.710 really demanded the most from him dramatically. 00:20:08.720 --> 00:20:11.400 Surely has to be that 2012 independent film, 00:20:11.480 --> 00:20:14.000 The Comedy. Oh, absolutely. The Comedy, directed 00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:17.339 by Rick Alverson. That film is something else. 00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:19.680 It's punishing. It's challenging. It's almost 00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:22.519 the anti -comedy film, despite the title. And 00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:24.460 it starred Heidecker alongside Wareheim, right? 00:20:24.799 --> 00:20:26.240 Right, that. But not as Tim and Eric. Not at 00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:28.559 all. Heidecker plays the lead, Swanson. He's 00:20:28.559 --> 00:20:31.079 this guy in his 30s drifting through life on 00:20:31.079 --> 00:20:33.799 inherited wealth in Williamsburg, Brooklyn. Yeah. 00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:36.460 Desperately privileged, immensely bored, and 00:20:36.460 --> 00:20:39.079 just deeply, profoundly cynical. Sounds unpleasant. 00:20:39.380 --> 00:20:41.579 Oh, he's incredibly unlikable. He spends the 00:20:41.579 --> 00:20:44.880 entire movie engaging in these cruel, boundary 00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:54.859 - Wow. That's a massive leap from playing, you 00:20:54.859 --> 00:20:56.960 know, a cartoon version of an unlikable character 00:20:56.960 --> 00:20:59.460 on Adult Swim. This sounds like it required real 00:20:59.460 --> 00:21:02.079 dramatic depth. It absolutely required genuine 00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:05.000 dramatic chalks. And the film was lauded, not 00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:06.740 because it was funny, because it really isn't 00:21:06.740 --> 00:21:08.880 in a traditional sense, but because Heidecker 00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:11.740 delivered this performance that felt unsettlingly 00:21:11.740 --> 00:21:13.980 authentic. Critics bought it then. They did. 00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:17.680 They praised his ability to just embody this 00:21:17.680 --> 00:21:21.910 entitled emptiness, this spiritual void. seem 00:21:21.910 --> 00:21:24.509 to be that his background in cringe comedy actually 00:21:24.509 --> 00:21:28.210 gave him this unique insight into social awkwardness, 00:21:28.210 --> 00:21:31.430 into cruelty, which he could then translate very 00:21:31.430 --> 00:21:34.009 effectively into serious drama. So the comedy 00:21:34.009 --> 00:21:36.309 really proved definitively that Timothy Heidecker 00:21:36.309 --> 00:21:38.609 wasn't just a comedian playing variations of 00:21:38.609 --> 00:21:41.170 himself. He was a capable, serious, dramatic 00:21:41.170 --> 00:21:43.990 performer. Exactly. A game changer for perceptions 00:21:43.990 --> 00:21:46.970 of him as an actor. And his television roles, 00:21:47.150 --> 00:21:49.089 beyond the Tim and Eric stuff, also show this 00:21:49.089 --> 00:21:51.190 incredible range. He seems comfortable. doing 00:21:51.190 --> 00:21:53.329 voice work live action across pretty much every 00:21:53.329 --> 00:21:55.569 conceivable genre. Let's touch on the voice work 00:21:55.569 --> 00:21:58.859 first. Sure. On the voice side, his contributions 00:21:58.859 --> 00:22:01.599 are pretty impressive. He's been on Aqua Teen 00:22:01.599 --> 00:22:04.420 Hunger Force multiple times, I think. He voiced 00:22:04.420 --> 00:22:07.279 a character named Amos Bruce on The Simpsons. 00:22:07.720 --> 00:22:10.380 And he's had several different roles across, 00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:12.960 I think the sources know, four episodes of Bob's 00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:15.319 Burgers, including the character Burt Della Lucci. 00:22:15.420 --> 00:22:18.660 These are high profile, well -respected animated 00:22:18.660 --> 00:22:21.640 shows that require strong comedic timing and 00:22:21.640 --> 00:22:24.299 character work, not just doing a bizarre voice. 00:22:24.519 --> 00:22:26.289 Right. It's about fitting in. to those established 00:22:26.289 --> 00:22:29.250 worlds. And then in live action TV, he's been 00:22:29.250 --> 00:22:31.329 popping up in all sorts of prestige and cult 00:22:31.329 --> 00:22:34.190 comedies for years now. He really has. We see 00:22:34.190 --> 00:22:36.789 him as Reverend Troy in Workaholics. He had a 00:22:36.789 --> 00:22:39.509 recurring, pretty significant role as Gene across 00:22:39.509 --> 00:22:42.650 eight episodes of HBO's Eastbound and Down. Gene, 00:22:42.730 --> 00:22:44.910 he was great in that. Yeah, holding his own opposite 00:22:44.910 --> 00:22:47.849 Danny McBride. And more recently, he played Doug 00:22:47.849 --> 00:22:51.740 in the HBO Max hit Our Flag Means Death. OK, 00:22:51.799 --> 00:22:54.000 so he's comfortable in these ensemble casts. 00:22:54.140 --> 00:22:56.519 Yeah. And his most recent series roles seem to 00:22:56.519 --> 00:22:58.319 demonstrate he's still keeping pace with the 00:22:58.319 --> 00:23:01.240 most cutting edge, high concept comedy out there. 00:23:01.400 --> 00:23:03.900 Definitely. Look at his work in Killing It, the 00:23:03.900 --> 00:23:06.440 Peacock series with Craig Robinson. He had a 00:23:06.440 --> 00:23:08.700 significant role there as Rodney LaMonca across 00:23:08.700 --> 00:23:11.799 10 episodes, really showcasing his ability to 00:23:11.799 --> 00:23:14.220 handle season long narrative structure within 00:23:14.220 --> 00:23:17.000 a comedic framework. And of course, I think you 00:23:17.000 --> 00:23:19.579 should leave. Yes. He's a recurring performer 00:23:19.579 --> 00:23:23.059 in, I believe, three episodes so far of the sketch 00:23:23.059 --> 00:23:25.019 comedy phenomenon. I think you should leave with 00:23:25.019 --> 00:23:28.539 Tim Robinson. Which feels like the current torchbearer 00:23:28.539 --> 00:23:30.759 for that kind of uncomfortable, high stakes character 00:23:30.759 --> 00:23:33.859 comedy he helped pioneer. Exactly. And Heidecker 00:23:33.859 --> 00:23:36.539 fits seamlessly into that chaotic world. It just 00:23:36.539 --> 00:23:39.579 proves his particular style and sensibility remain 00:23:39.579 --> 00:23:42.779 relevant and adaptable, even as the comedy landscape 00:23:42.779 --> 00:23:45.519 evolves. We should also probably connect this 00:23:45.519 --> 00:23:48.319 acting and directing master. back to critical 00:23:48.319 --> 00:23:50.680 recognition too. It's not just that he's doing 00:23:50.680 --> 00:23:53.000 all this stuff. the industry is actually recognizing 00:23:53.000 --> 00:23:55.440 his versatility, particularly behind the camera 00:23:55.440 --> 00:23:57.359 as well. That's a vital piece of context, yeah. 00:23:57.480 --> 00:24:00.680 He received a Directors Guild of America Awards 00:24:00.680 --> 00:24:03.859 nomination, a DGA nomination, which he shared 00:24:03.859 --> 00:24:07.240 with Wareheim. It was for outstanding directorial 00:24:07.240 --> 00:24:09.539 achievement in commercials. For which commercial? 00:24:09.779 --> 00:24:12.480 For that Sarave campaign they did, the one featuring 00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:15.420 Michael Cera playing on the name similarity Michael 00:24:15.420 --> 00:24:18.559 Sarame. Ah, right. That was clever. And getting 00:24:18.559 --> 00:24:21.490 a DGA nomination is a major... institutional 00:24:21.490 --> 00:24:25.410 nod. It recognizes that their unique directorial 00:24:25.410 --> 00:24:27.829 vision is not just weird, but technically and 00:24:27.829 --> 00:24:30.230 commercially proficient. They know how to make 00:24:30.230 --> 00:24:32.809 stuff that works on a professional level. And 00:24:32.809 --> 00:24:34.970 he's won awards for acting too. Well, he holds 00:24:34.970 --> 00:24:38.369 a Webby Award for Best Actor, specifically as 00:24:38.369 --> 00:24:41.029 part of the comedy team of Tim and Eric. So, 00:24:41.049 --> 00:24:44.369 yeah, he has mastered and been recognized for 00:24:44.369 --> 00:24:46.890 performing, writing and directing across this 00:24:46.890 --> 00:24:49.329 entire media ecosystem. It's quite the resume. 00:24:49.509 --> 00:24:51.349 OK, let's shift gears dramatically again, because 00:24:51.349 --> 00:24:54.630 this, the music career, feels like the ultimate 00:24:54.630 --> 00:24:56.829 crucible for that whole question of irony versus 00:24:56.829 --> 00:24:59.029 sincerity we keep coming back to. It really does. 00:24:59.289 --> 00:25:01.390 Because while he was deep in creating the madness 00:25:01.390 --> 00:25:03.950 of Awesome Show and building the on cinema. universe, 00:25:04.049 --> 00:25:06.849 he simultaneously launched this whole other career 00:25:06.849 --> 00:25:10.130 in music. And that music sometimes was the purest, 00:25:10.130 --> 00:25:13.609 most absurd comedy. But ultimately, it seems 00:25:13.609 --> 00:25:15.890 to have become a vehicle for genuine, unironic 00:25:15.890 --> 00:25:18.470 emotion. Yeah. The sources point to eight solo 00:25:18.470 --> 00:25:22.329 studio albums plus collaborations, and they explicitly 00:25:22.329 --> 00:25:25.410 describe this trajectory as blending comedy rock 00:25:25.410 --> 00:25:28.430 initially, but moving steadily toward more earnest 00:25:28.430 --> 00:25:30.740 folk rock. So where did the music career actually 00:25:30.740 --> 00:25:33.319 start? Did it grow out of the comedy? Interestingly, 00:25:33.420 --> 00:25:36.319 it started in a place that sounds like pure shared 00:25:36.319 --> 00:25:39.599 musical admiration, not parody. The first major 00:25:39.599 --> 00:25:42.579 collaboration was Heidecker and Wood. He was 00:25:42.579 --> 00:25:45.480 Wood. That's Davin Wood. And significantly, he 00:25:45.480 --> 00:25:47.680 had already provided music composition for both 00:25:47.680 --> 00:25:50.519 Tom Goes to the Mayor and Awesome Show, so they 00:25:50.519 --> 00:25:52.839 had a working relationship grounded in music 00:25:52.839 --> 00:25:55.420 for the shows. Ah, okay, so they bonded over 00:25:55.420 --> 00:25:57.420 music first. Yeah. And what kind of music were 00:25:57.420 --> 00:25:59.619 they making together as Heidecker and Wood? Well, 00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:01.859 their stated musical goal, according to the sources, 00:26:01.980 --> 00:26:04.539 was an earnest homage, not a parody specifically 00:26:04.539 --> 00:26:08.940 of 1970s soft rock. 70s soft rock? Yeah, they 00:26:08.940 --> 00:26:11.539 cited specific influences. People like Randy 00:26:11.539 --> 00:26:14.779 Newman, Warren Zevon, Harry Nilsson, Boz Skaggs. 00:26:14.779 --> 00:26:17.279 You know, classic songwriters known for lyrical 00:26:17.279 --> 00:26:19.380 wit, sometimes biting, but generally sincere 00:26:19.380 --> 00:26:21.640 musical delivery. That's a very specific niche 00:26:21.640 --> 00:26:24.680 to aim for. It is. And they released two albums 00:26:24.680 --> 00:26:27.180 in this vein. Starting From Nowhere came out 00:26:27.180 --> 00:26:29.440 in 2011, and then Some Things Never Stay the 00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:32.160 Same followed in 2013. And what did those albums 00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:35.740 show? Could he actually pull off sincere soft 00:26:35.740 --> 00:26:38.990 rock? Apparently, yes. these albums showed an 00:26:38.990 --> 00:26:41.630 early capacity for genuine creation within that 00:26:41.630 --> 00:26:44.849 specific musical genre reviewers noted there's 00:26:44.849 --> 00:26:46.730 warmth there's definitely observational humor 00:26:46.730 --> 00:26:49.690 in the lyrics but there's often a real non -ironic 00:26:49.690 --> 00:26:51.549 depth to the composition and the performance 00:26:51.549 --> 00:26:54.450 it felt like a space where the irony could finally 00:26:54.450 --> 00:26:57.880 take a break for him but Knowing Heidecker, that 00:26:57.880 --> 00:26:59.839 rest probably couldn't last too long, right? 00:27:00.019 --> 00:27:02.119 Because the other side of his musical coin is, 00:27:02.160 --> 00:27:04.779 well, it's the Yellow River Boys. Ah, yes. The 00:27:04.779 --> 00:27:06.940 Yellow River Boys. A project that is just iconic 00:27:06.940 --> 00:27:09.539 for its utter commitment to absurdity and, frankly, 00:27:09.619 --> 00:27:11.880 cultural trolling. Tell us about this, because 00:27:11.880 --> 00:27:14.079 it feels like the polar opposite of Ernest Harry 00:27:14.079 --> 00:27:17.039 Nelson homages. It absolutely is. Under this 00:27:17.039 --> 00:27:19.460 specific band name, Heidecker released an album 00:27:19.460 --> 00:27:22.859 called Urinal Saint Station in 2013. It came 00:27:22.859 --> 00:27:25.819 out on Drag City, a respected indie label, which... 00:27:25.839 --> 00:27:27.799 adds another layer of weirdness. Urinal Saints 00:27:27.799 --> 00:27:31.960 Station, okay. Yeah. The band name, the album 00:27:31.960 --> 00:27:34.400 title, and especially the lead single, which 00:27:34.400 --> 00:27:37.339 was called Hot Piss. Oh my. It all deliberately 00:27:37.339 --> 00:27:39.779 pushes the boundaries of taste and decency as 00:27:39.779 --> 00:27:42.200 far as possible. The music itself is described 00:27:42.200 --> 00:27:45.200 as lo -fi, deliberately offensive rock, just 00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:48.079 crude and confrontational. And the critical reaction 00:27:48.079 --> 00:27:51.559 to this. Yeah. Masterpiece. Yeah. That's where 00:27:51.559 --> 00:27:53.579 the meta joke really lands, isn't it? It's the 00:27:53.579 --> 00:27:56.480 ultimate meta joke. In a truly surreal twist 00:27:56.480 --> 00:27:59.400 of critical appreciation or perhaps misunderstanding 00:27:59.400 --> 00:28:02.019 or maybe just leaning into the provocation Vice 00:28:02.019 --> 00:28:04.539 magazine, a publication known for its sometimes 00:28:04.539 --> 00:28:07.359 contrarian, often provocative aesthetic. Right. 00:28:07.690 --> 00:28:10.789 They named Urinal St. Station the best album 00:28:10.789 --> 00:28:13.230 of 2013. The best album of the year. Ahead of 00:28:13.230 --> 00:28:15.730 like actual musicians. The best album. So this 00:28:15.730 --> 00:28:17.710 wasn't just some guy releasing a strange offensive 00:28:17.710 --> 00:28:20.369 album. It was pure performance art designed to 00:28:20.369 --> 00:28:22.670 test the absolute limits of music criticism, 00:28:22.789 --> 00:28:25.430 the media's appetite for shock value, maybe even 00:28:25.430 --> 00:28:28.190 the concept of best. The comedy isn't just in 00:28:28.190 --> 00:28:30.630 the gross out lyrics then. It's in the serious 00:28:30.630 --> 00:28:32.789 discussion that followed about its supposed artistic 00:28:32.789 --> 00:28:36.579 merit. Exactly. That's the real punchline. But 00:28:36.579 --> 00:28:39.380 his musical satire wasn't limited to just shock 00:28:39.380 --> 00:28:42.380 rock. He's also proven he can execute incredibly 00:28:42.380 --> 00:28:45.720 high level, very specific political parody through 00:28:45.720 --> 00:28:48.039 music. Okay. Where did that come in? That brings 00:28:48.039 --> 00:28:50.980 us to Kainthology. Songs in the Key of Kain. 00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:54.809 This is from 2012. Kainthology. Yeah. As in Herman 00:28:54.809 --> 00:28:57.910 Cain. Precisely. This album was born out of that 00:28:57.910 --> 00:29:00.890 parody campaign jingle, Cane Train, that Heidecker 00:29:00.890 --> 00:29:03.049 created when Herman Cain was running for president. 00:29:03.250 --> 00:29:05.809 I remember Cane Train. It was catchy. It was 00:29:05.809 --> 00:29:08.410 weirdly catchy, but the full album project was 00:29:08.410 --> 00:29:11.670 just meticulously detailed as a joke. The layers 00:29:11.670 --> 00:29:13.470 of commitment are what make it genius, though. 00:29:13.529 --> 00:29:15.950 It featured nine songs in total. Okay. And the 00:29:15.950 --> 00:29:19.750 original price was listed at $9 .99. Wait. 999 00:29:19.750 --> 00:29:23.690 as in? As in Herman Cain's infamous 9999 tax 00:29:23.690 --> 00:29:26.369 plan. Every detail from the number of tracks 00:29:26.369 --> 00:29:28.910 to the pricing was part of the joke. It demonstrates 00:29:28.910 --> 00:29:31.670 this almost surgical level of commitment to political 00:29:31.670 --> 00:29:34.069 satire. He really sweats the small stuff to make 00:29:34.069 --> 00:29:36.230 the parody land perfectly. But was it purely 00:29:36.230 --> 00:29:38.009 a joke or was there something else going on? 00:29:38.210 --> 00:29:40.920 Well, crucially. And this is a recurring theme 00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:43.440 we see in Heidecker's work. The sources confirm 00:29:43.440 --> 00:29:45.960 that the actual proceeds from the album went 00:29:45.960 --> 00:29:48.359 to benefit the violence intervention program. 00:29:48.680 --> 00:29:51.259 Ah, OK. So there's substance behind the silliness. 00:29:51.440 --> 00:29:54.380 Exactly. He often inserts a serious, sometimes 00:29:54.380 --> 00:29:57.819 altruistic cause behind the most ludicrous artistic 00:29:57.819 --> 00:30:01.680 statement. It forces the audience maybe to engage 00:30:01.680 --> 00:30:04.440 with the real world political or social context 00:30:04.440 --> 00:30:07.019 simmering beneath the humor. He even used his 00:30:07.019 --> 00:30:09.430 musical knowledge to do incredibly. specific 00:30:09.430 --> 00:30:11.900 musical impressions right? Particularly targeting 00:30:11.900 --> 00:30:15.279 Bob Dylan. Oh, his Dylan spoofs are just a masterclass 00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:17.279 in musical mimicry and deep cut referencing. 00:30:17.480 --> 00:30:19.619 It shows he's not just kidding around. He knows 00:30:19.619 --> 00:30:21.720 his music history. What are some examples? Well, 00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:24.079 remember when news broke that Bob Dylan's upcoming 00:30:24.079 --> 00:30:26.819 album, Tempest, was going to feature this epic 00:30:26.819 --> 00:30:29.480 14 -minute track about the sinking of the RMS 00:30:29.480 --> 00:30:32.500 Titanic? Vaguely, yeah. Heidecker almost immediately 00:30:32.500 --> 00:30:35.640 put out his own competing Dylan -esque pastiche 00:30:35.640 --> 00:30:38.759 track, also called Titanic, trying to beat Dylan 00:30:38.759 --> 00:30:40.880 to the punch with his own version. That's brilliant 00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:43.619 and incredibly niche. Totally. And he followed 00:30:43.619 --> 00:30:46.460 that up in 2013 with other tracks, like one called 00:30:46.460 --> 00:30:48.940 Running Out the Clock, which specifically parodied 00:30:48.940 --> 00:30:51.640 the sound and the lyrical style of Dylan's 1983 00:30:51.640 --> 00:30:55.140 album Infidels. Wow, Infidels. That's a deep 00:30:55.140 --> 00:30:58.099 cut for parody. Right. And another called Long 00:30:58.099 --> 00:31:00.819 Black Dress, which was crafted specifically in 00:31:00.819 --> 00:31:03.759 the style of Dylan's actual Tempest album. This 00:31:03.759 --> 00:31:06.160 just demonstrates that his musical skills are 00:31:06.160 --> 00:31:09.279 genuinely professional grade. He's not just goofing 00:31:09.279 --> 00:31:11.579 around on a guitar. He's clearly studying composition. 00:31:11.690 --> 00:31:15.609 arrangement vocal delivery okay so he can do 00:31:15.609 --> 00:31:18.470 homage he can do shock parody he can do political 00:31:18.470 --> 00:31:22.150 satire he can do specific artist pastiche but 00:31:22.150 --> 00:31:24.990 the solo discography the albums under his own 00:31:24.990 --> 00:31:27.190 name that's where we see the clearest trajectory 00:31:27.190 --> 00:31:30.460 toward the well earnest folk rocker we seem to 00:31:30.460 --> 00:31:32.779 have today. The shift becomes really unmistakable 00:31:32.779 --> 00:31:34.819 there. You see the political energy channeled 00:31:34.819 --> 00:31:37.319 much more directly rather than through elaborate 00:31:37.319 --> 00:31:40.759 parody, like with Too Dumb for Suicide, Tim Heidecker's 00:31:40.759 --> 00:31:42.700 Trump songs. Right. That title is pretty direct. 00:31:42.920 --> 00:31:46.049 And the timing is key. It was released in 2017, 00:31:46.309 --> 00:31:49.289 exactly one year after Donald Trump's 2016 presidential 00:31:49.289 --> 00:31:51.970 victory. This wasn't subtle satire. This was 00:31:51.970 --> 00:31:54.410 music designed to channel specific, immediate 00:31:54.410 --> 00:31:57.349 political anxieties and frustrations. It felt 00:31:57.349 --> 00:31:59.710 like an authentic emotional response set to music. 00:31:59.930 --> 00:32:02.930 And then he seemed to embrace high -concept existentialism. 00:32:02.930 --> 00:32:05.490 Yeah. Almost completely abandoning comedy with 00:32:05.490 --> 00:32:08.250 2020 album Fear of Death. Yeah, Fear of Death 00:32:08.250 --> 00:32:10.450 was a full -on concept album. The whole thing 00:32:10.450 --> 00:32:14.299 focused on mortality, aging, existence. Pretty 00:32:14.299 --> 00:32:16.400 heavy stuff. And he brought in some serious collaborators 00:32:16.400 --> 00:32:18.759 for that one, didn't he? He did. It featured 00:32:18.759 --> 00:32:21.279 high -profile indie musicians, members of bands 00:32:21.279 --> 00:32:23.599 like Foxygen, The Lemon Twigs, and the singer 00:32:23.599 --> 00:32:26.240 Wiseblood contributed. The seriousness of the 00:32:26.240 --> 00:32:28.400 subject matter, combined with the caliber of 00:32:28.400 --> 00:32:30.420 the musical talent involved, it made it pretty 00:32:30.420 --> 00:32:32.539 clear this wasn't a joke. This wasn't Urinal 00:32:32.539 --> 00:32:34.539 Scene Station. Definitely not. This wasn't a 00:32:34.539 --> 00:32:37.660 parody. It was presented as a genuine artistic 00:32:37.660 --> 00:32:41.440 exploration of profound human fear. He had successfully, 00:32:41.599 --> 00:32:43.980 it seems, crossed the line into the indie folk 00:32:43.980 --> 00:32:46.680 scene as a serious musician in his own right. 00:32:47.000 --> 00:32:50.079 Which brings us right up to his most recent and 00:32:50.079 --> 00:32:52.779 maybe most contextually significant release, 00:32:53.079 --> 00:32:56.160 the 2024 album Sliffing Away. Right. And the 00:32:56.160 --> 00:32:58.259 sources really confirm this album's importance 00:32:58.259 --> 00:33:01.039 by noting the explicit shift in his own artistic 00:33:01.039 --> 00:33:03.480 statements surrounding it. Heidecker himself 00:33:03.480 --> 00:33:05.660 apparently admitted that much of his prior artistic 00:33:05.660 --> 00:33:09.660 life has revolved around obscuring identity and 00:33:09.660 --> 00:33:12.240 irony he said that himself yeah and slipping 00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:15.059 away is noted both by critics and seemingly by 00:33:15.059 --> 00:33:17.920 him as a deliberate and definitive move away 00:33:17.920 --> 00:33:20.680 from that practice it's being framed as his mature 00:33:20.680 --> 00:33:24.000 phase prioritizing clarity sincerity and direct 00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:26.940 emotion in his folk music So he's explicitly 00:33:26.940 --> 00:33:29.460 saying he's shedding that shield of irony, the 00:33:29.460 --> 00:33:31.359 one that defined pretty much his entire prior 00:33:31.359 --> 00:33:33.819 career. That seems to be the message, yes. Whether 00:33:33.819 --> 00:33:35.779 it sticks, well, that remains to be seen. Okay, 00:33:35.819 --> 00:33:37.619 so we have this picture of a man who built an 00:33:37.619 --> 00:33:40.180 empire based on ironic distance, on performance, 00:33:40.319 --> 00:33:42.859 yet who increasingly seems to be using sincerity 00:33:42.859 --> 00:33:46.279 as a primary creative tool. To help ground ourselves 00:33:46.279 --> 00:33:48.700 in the actual person behind all these multiple 00:33:48.700 --> 00:33:50.940 layers of performance, maybe we should quickly 00:33:50.940 --> 00:33:53.289 establish some of his personal context. That's 00:33:53.289 --> 00:33:55.269 probably useful, yeah. Just the basic facts. 00:33:55.410 --> 00:33:57.890 On the personal front, Timothy Heidecker is married 00:33:57.890 --> 00:34:00.170 to the actress Marilyn Pareiko. They got married 00:34:00.170 --> 00:34:03.210 back in 2007. Okay, so a long -term relationship. 00:34:03.509 --> 00:34:05.970 Seems so. And they have a family. They have two 00:34:05.970 --> 00:34:08.849 children, a daughter who was born in 2013, and 00:34:08.849 --> 00:34:12.590 a son born in 2016. Right. And those kinds of 00:34:12.590 --> 00:34:14.849 domestic details, having a family, maybe they 00:34:14.849 --> 00:34:17.849 offer some crucial context for that observant, 00:34:17.849 --> 00:34:20.389 sometimes kind of melancholy tone you hear in 00:34:20.389 --> 00:34:23.150 his more recent earnest focus. music. Absolutely. 00:34:23.269 --> 00:34:25.349 A lot of those later songs seem to deal directly 00:34:25.349 --> 00:34:27.690 with themes of family, aging, suburban life, 00:34:27.809 --> 00:34:30.010 responsibility, things that become more central 00:34:30.010 --> 00:34:31.630 as you get older and have kids. It makes sense. 00:34:31.809 --> 00:34:33.989 And while his most famous comedy character, Tim 00:34:33.989 --> 00:34:37.510 Heidecker from On Cinema, is this sort of bizarre 00:34:37.510 --> 00:34:40.550 political agitator, often leaning far right. 00:34:40.710 --> 00:34:43.429 Yeah. The actual man, Timothy Heidecker, maintains 00:34:43.429 --> 00:34:46.789 very clear and very different political and philosophical 00:34:46.789 --> 00:34:49.449 stances. Yes, the lines are quite sharp here, 00:34:49.510 --> 00:34:52.090 based on the sources. Politically, in June 2018, 00:34:52.469 --> 00:34:54.269 Timothy Heidecker publicly announced that he 00:34:54.269 --> 00:34:56.309 had joined the Democratic Socialists of America, 00:34:56.469 --> 00:34:59.429 the DSA. Okay, so DSA membership. That definitely 00:34:59.429 --> 00:35:02.349 clarifies things. It does. And that affiliation 00:35:02.349 --> 00:35:05.230 helps explain the specific, often quite directed 00:35:05.230 --> 00:35:08.309 political satire he executes in his music, and 00:35:08.309 --> 00:35:10.690 particularly on shows like Office Hours Live. 00:35:10.909 --> 00:35:14.230 It stands in really stark contrast to the confused, 00:35:14.469 --> 00:35:17.429 conspiracy -laden, vaguely right -wing politics 00:35:17.429 --> 00:35:20.949 of his on -cinema character persona. So the character's 00:35:20.949 --> 00:35:24.400 one thing, the person is another. And philosophically. 00:35:24.719 --> 00:35:26.880 Philosophically, he has publicly described himself, 00:35:27.000 --> 00:35:29.780 interestingly, as both an atheist and an agnostic, 00:35:29.820 --> 00:35:32.559 which suggests maybe a comfort with uncertainty. 00:35:32.920 --> 00:35:36.099 Perhaps. It certainly seems to inform those existential 00:35:36.099 --> 00:35:38.780 themes, right? Mortality, the meaning of existence 00:35:38.780 --> 00:35:41.139 that we see explored so directly in albums like 00:35:41.139 --> 00:35:44.019 Fear of Death. Definitely feels connected. Finally, 00:35:44.099 --> 00:35:45.800 maybe we should just briefly mention his literary 00:35:45.800 --> 00:35:47.340 output because, of course, he's written books, 00:35:47.440 --> 00:35:50.190 too. Right. Do they shed more light or mostly 00:35:50.190 --> 00:35:52.949 just expand the fictional universes? Mostly the 00:35:52.949 --> 00:35:56.170 latter, it seems. His bibliography kind of reinforces 00:35:56.170 --> 00:35:58.969 the idea that his projects just bleed into every 00:35:58.969 --> 00:36:02.030 possible medium. He co -authored a book called 00:36:02.030 --> 00:36:05.369 Bicycle Built for Two back in 2010 with his on 00:36:05.369 --> 00:36:08.480 -cinema co -star Greg Turkington. Okay, so an 00:36:08.480 --> 00:36:10.760 on -cinema book. Yeah, further cementing the 00:36:10.760 --> 00:36:12.840 fictional lore of their characters and their 00:36:12.840 --> 00:36:15.380 bizarre relationship. And then, of course, there's 00:36:15.380 --> 00:36:18.260 Tim and Eric's Zone Theory from 2015, which he 00:36:18.260 --> 00:36:20.420 co -authored with Eric Wareheim. What was Zone 00:36:20.420 --> 00:36:22.940 Theory about? It acts as a kind of fictionalized 00:36:22.940 --> 00:36:25.960 self -help guidebook, supposedly explaining the 00:36:25.960 --> 00:36:28.239 philosophy and the aesthetic world behind their 00:36:28.239 --> 00:36:31.400 specific brand of anti -comedy. Very meta, very 00:36:31.400 --> 00:36:34.300 self -referential. Naturally. So these books 00:36:34.300 --> 00:36:36.920 really just prove that for Heidecker, The work 00:36:36.920 --> 00:36:39.840 is never quite done, is it? The joke or the concept 00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:42.380 always seems to demand a new format, another 00:36:42.380 --> 00:36:44.679 layer. Always another layer. Hashtag tag outro. 00:36:44.980 --> 00:36:47.579 So after diving through all of this, what does 00:36:47.579 --> 00:36:50.320 it all mean for you, the listener? Our deep dive 00:36:50.320 --> 00:36:52.699 today really reveals, I think, that Timothy Richard 00:36:52.699 --> 00:36:55.780 Heidecker's career is far more than just a collection 00:36:55.780 --> 00:36:58.440 of random weird projects strung together. Yeah, 00:36:58.480 --> 00:37:01.619 it's not random at all. No, it feels like a purposeful, 00:37:01.639 --> 00:37:04.760 decades -long study in artistic contradiction. 00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:07.920 He's constantly using parody, music, acting, 00:37:08.039 --> 00:37:11.440 all these different tools to continuously challenge 00:37:11.440 --> 00:37:14.519 the audience's perception of authenticity, of 00:37:14.519 --> 00:37:17.599 performance, especially in our weird 21st century 00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:20.199 media landscape. And the sourcing really confirms 00:37:20.199 --> 00:37:22.599 he's a master of compartmentalization, doesn't 00:37:22.599 --> 00:37:25.679 it? He can release the extreme, almost juvenile 00:37:25.679 --> 00:37:28.159 absurdity of the Yellow River Boys, you know, 00:37:28.159 --> 00:37:30.800 featuring the lead single Hot Piss. I forget 00:37:30.800 --> 00:37:32.880 Hot Piss. While simultaneously writing these 00:37:32.880 --> 00:37:35.849 incredibly emotionally structured. quite beautiful 00:37:35.849 --> 00:37:38.650 folk songs about the fragility of life on an 00:37:38.650 --> 00:37:41.329 album like Fear of Death, he operates with completely 00:37:41.329 --> 00:37:43.010 different sets of rules depending on the medium 00:37:43.010 --> 00:37:46.210 he's in. And that forces you, as the consumer, 00:37:46.409 --> 00:37:48.869 as the audience member, to constantly recalibrate 00:37:48.869 --> 00:37:51.190 your expectations based on which Kim is speaking 00:37:51.190 --> 00:37:53.010 at that moment. Is it the character? Is it the 00:37:53.010 --> 00:37:55.269 musician? Is it the comedian? And his diverse 00:37:55.269 --> 00:37:57.110 resume just highlights this. Think about it. 00:37:57.150 --> 00:37:59.949 Playing the cruel, privileged, deeply unhappy 00:37:59.949 --> 00:38:02.630 lead in a serious, dramatic film like the comedy. 00:38:03.420 --> 00:38:05.579 then turning around and directing major commercial 00:38:05.579 --> 00:38:08.260 campaigns for deodorant, then getting involved 00:38:08.260 --> 00:38:10.360 in serious political organization with the DSA, 00:38:10.539 --> 00:38:12.980 and then going back to playing the aggressively 00:38:12.980 --> 00:38:17.679 incompetent conspiracy -addled pundit on cinema. 00:38:17.980 --> 00:38:19.780 It's all connected somehow. It feels like it 00:38:19.780 --> 00:38:22.360 is. Each project seems to use a specific persona, 00:38:22.400 --> 00:38:25.380 whether it's Tim the filmmaker, Tim the earnest 00:38:25.380 --> 00:38:28.179 musician, Tim the political agitator to explore 00:38:28.179 --> 00:38:30.420 social anxieties. Sometimes he does it through 00:38:30.420 --> 00:38:33.110 the lens of absurd distancing comedy. and sometimes 00:38:33.110 --> 00:38:36.250 through genuine, immediate introspection. He 00:38:36.250 --> 00:38:39.369 has just brilliantly managed these multiple, 00:38:39.590 --> 00:38:42.610 often wildly conflicting identities for years. 00:38:42.889 --> 00:38:44.650 And this brings us right back to that recent 00:38:44.650 --> 00:38:46.929 statement he made. Yeah, the one about his artistic 00:38:46.929 --> 00:38:49.630 life being defined by obscuring his identity 00:38:49.630 --> 00:38:52.530 and relying on irony. Right. And that his most 00:38:52.530 --> 00:38:55.530 recent album, Slipping Away, marks an intentional 00:38:55.530 --> 00:38:58.030 shift away from that. He's explicitly stating, 00:38:58.210 --> 00:39:01.190 it seems, that the mask is coming off. The sincerity 00:39:01.190 --> 00:39:03.630 is taking over. Which, given his entire history, 00:39:03.869 --> 00:39:06.389 that statement itself feels like a setup, doesn't 00:39:06.389 --> 00:39:09.369 it? It totally does. And that raises the ultimate 00:39:09.369 --> 00:39:12.230 provocative question for you, our listener, to 00:39:12.230 --> 00:39:14.909 really consider. If Timothy Richard Heidecker 00:39:14.909 --> 00:39:17.809 has explicitly stated he is moving away from 00:39:17.809 --> 00:39:20.429 the obscuring power of irony and towards sincerity. 00:39:21.139 --> 00:39:24.059 What artistic project, whether it's comedy or 00:39:24.059 --> 00:39:27.579 music or something totally new, will he inevitably 00:39:27.579 --> 00:39:30.480 release next that completely subverts this newfound 00:39:30.480 --> 00:39:33.539 earnestness? That violently pulls the mask of 00:39:33.539 --> 00:39:36.260 authenticity right back down and reminds us all 00:39:36.260 --> 00:39:38.619 that he is still and perhaps always will be the 00:39:38.619 --> 00:39:41.360 master of creative contradiction. That is the 00:39:41.360 --> 00:39:43.099 ultimate creative challenge he seems to have 00:39:43.099 --> 00:39:45.070 set for himself now, isn't it? What's the counter 00:39:45.070 --> 00:39:46.929 move going to be? Exactly. Something for you 00:39:46.929 --> 00:39:49.250 to ponder as you listen to his next album or 00:39:49.250 --> 00:39:51.969 watch his next inevitably chaotic web series. 00:39:52.130 --> 00:39:53.949 Indeed. It'll be interesting to see. It will. 00:39:54.289 --> 00:39:56.309 We'll see you next time on The Deep Dive.