WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.459 Welcome to the Deep Dive. We dig into the sources 00:00:02.459 --> 00:00:04.400 so you don't have to, pulling out the key insights 00:00:04.400 --> 00:00:07.740 on really fascinating topics. And today we're 00:00:07.740 --> 00:00:10.220 looking at someone who's a real puzzle in music 00:00:10.220 --> 00:00:13.779 history. Todd Harry Rundgren. Bored back in June 00:00:13.779 --> 00:00:17.339 48. An American musician, singer, songwriter, 00:00:17.420 --> 00:00:21.019 producer. The list just goes on. It really does. 00:00:21.100 --> 00:00:23.339 He's this total polymath. Trying to pin him down 00:00:23.339 --> 00:00:25.519 genre -wise is almost impossible. You've got 00:00:25.519 --> 00:00:29.989 pop. rock, prog rock, electronic, R &B, psychedelia, 00:00:30.250 --> 00:00:32.969 even soft rock. And what's really rare, I think, 00:00:32.969 --> 00:00:36.149 is being so prominent. so successful as both 00:00:36.149 --> 00:00:39.009 a recording artist and a top tier producer. You 00:00:39.009 --> 00:00:40.869 don't see that combination very often at his 00:00:40.869 --> 00:00:42.909 level. Exactly. He's making hits like Hello, 00:00:43.030 --> 00:00:45.009 It's Me, but also producing, you know, the New 00:00:45.009 --> 00:00:47.390 York Dolls. It's a wild range. So that's our 00:00:47.390 --> 00:00:49.170 mission today, right? We're diving into the sources 00:00:49.170 --> 00:00:51.810 to figure out how one guy managed to pioneer 00:00:51.810 --> 00:00:54.329 in so many different areas from crafting perfect 00:00:54.329 --> 00:00:57.170 pop songs to designing computer software and 00:00:57.170 --> 00:00:59.570 changing how music gets distributed online. How 00:00:59.570 --> 00:01:02.600 did he maintain that? That breadth, what's the 00:01:02.600 --> 00:01:05.579 core thread running through this incredibly unorthodox 00:01:05.579 --> 00:01:07.719 career? That's what we want to unpack. Okay, 00:01:07.780 --> 00:01:09.579 so let's kick off with the early days. Where 00:01:09.579 --> 00:01:12.239 did it all start for him? Well, the mid -60s, 00:01:12.239 --> 00:01:14.840 like a lot of guys then. He was in a blues rock 00:01:14.840 --> 00:01:18.159 group called Woody's Truck Stop first. Woody's 00:01:18.159 --> 00:01:21.000 Truck Stop, okay. Doesn't that sound very psychedelic? 00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:25.579 No, it wasn't. But it was brief. By 1967, he 00:01:25.579 --> 00:01:28.989 formed the psychedelic band Naz. And that's where 00:01:28.989 --> 00:01:30.969 things really start to click for him creatively. 00:01:31.230 --> 00:01:34.420 Yes. I open my eyes. That was them, right? That's 00:01:34.420 --> 00:01:37.159 the one. Released in 68, backed with the original 00:01:37.159 --> 00:01:40.280 version of Hello, It's Me, actually. They got 00:01:40.280 --> 00:01:42.760 some attention, but maybe not huge success. But 00:01:42.760 --> 00:01:44.560 it was important for his development. Critically 00:01:44.560 --> 00:01:46.980 important. Sources say this was his real training 00:01:46.980 --> 00:01:48.879 ground. He wasn't just playing guitar. He was 00:01:48.879 --> 00:01:51.420 dissecting songwriting, arranging, apparently 00:01:51.420 --> 00:01:54.200 aiming to match the complexity and artistry of 00:01:54.200 --> 00:01:56.319 the Beatles. He was really studying it. That 00:01:56.319 --> 00:01:59.239 ambition, that need for control, seems like a 00:01:59.239 --> 00:02:01.519 theme. Absolutely. And it led to tensions within 00:02:01.519 --> 00:02:04.680 Nas. His musical ideas were evolving really fast, 00:02:04.859 --> 00:02:07.000 maybe faster than the rest of the band. So he 00:02:07.000 --> 00:02:09.419 leaves. And jumps straight into a solo career. 00:02:09.599 --> 00:02:12.439 Pretty much. He puts out his debut album, Runt, 00:02:12.500 --> 00:02:15.680 in 1970. And boom, first U .S. top 40 hit right 00:02:15.680 --> 00:02:18.539 away with We Gotta Get You a Woman. So solo success 00:02:18.539 --> 00:02:21.060 comes quickly. But you mentioned the producer 00:02:21.060 --> 00:02:23.969 side being just as important. Oh, maybe even 00:02:23.969 --> 00:02:25.909 more important in terms of enabling his whole 00:02:25.909 --> 00:02:28.889 career, this is where we see him becoming one 00:02:28.889 --> 00:02:30.930 of the very first people to be a big deal as 00:02:30.930 --> 00:02:33.250 both an artist and a producer. Kind of paving 00:02:33.250 --> 00:02:35.509 the way for guys like Prince later on. Exactly. 00:02:35.750 --> 00:02:38.449 That model of the self -contained genius who 00:02:38.449 --> 00:02:41.150 can do it all in the studio. For Rundgren, the 00:02:41.150 --> 00:02:43.469 studio wasn't just a place to record. It was, 00:02:43.569 --> 00:02:46.129 as some sources put it, his ultimate instrument. 00:02:46.509 --> 00:02:48.949 Okay, so how did he get into production so seriously? 00:02:49.789 --> 00:02:52.009 After leaving NAS. Right. He leaves NAS, moves 00:02:52.009 --> 00:02:54.889 to New York in 69, and here's a fascinating little 00:02:54.889 --> 00:02:57.710 what if, apparently. He's seriously considered 00:02:57.710 --> 00:03:01.490 becoming a computer programmer. Wow. Okay. Foreshadowing. 00:03:01.490 --> 00:03:04.409 Big time. But instead, he takes a job as a staff 00:03:04.409 --> 00:03:06.889 engineer and producer, and it's under Albert 00:03:06.889 --> 00:03:09.550 Grossman, the legendary manager for Dylan and 00:03:09.550 --> 00:03:11.770 the Band. At Bearsville Records, right. Grossman's 00:03:11.770 --> 00:03:14.699 label. That's the one. Ampex Spearsville. And 00:03:14.699 --> 00:03:16.900 Grossman apparently saw the potential immediately, 00:03:17.159 --> 00:03:19.219 told Rundgren he'd make him the highest paid 00:03:19.219 --> 00:03:21.419 producer in the world. Did he? Eventually, yeah. 00:03:22.460 --> 00:03:24.919 And this job was key. It gave him instant access 00:03:24.919 --> 00:03:28.539 to major projects and, crucially, a really good 00:03:28.539 --> 00:03:31.259 income stream that wasn't tied to his own record 00:03:31.259 --> 00:03:34.219 sales. Which buys him freedom later on. Totally. 00:03:34.379 --> 00:03:37.539 And the success came fast. He wasn't just engineering 00:03:37.539 --> 00:03:40.419 local bands. Straight away, he's working with 00:03:40.419 --> 00:03:43.199 the band on Stage Fright in 1970. Which was a 00:03:43.199 --> 00:03:46.580 huge album. Number five on Billboard? Yep. He 00:03:46.580 --> 00:03:49.639 got tagged Bearsville's Boy Wonder. He clearly 00:03:49.639 --> 00:03:51.560 had the technical chops right from the start. 00:03:51.680 --> 00:03:53.900 And he gets thrown into some tricky situations, 00:03:53.979 --> 00:03:55.960 too, like with Badfinger. Oh, yeah. The Straight 00:03:55.960 --> 00:03:58.759 Up album in 71, George Harrison was producing 00:03:58.759 --> 00:04:01.099 it initially. Right. But then the concert for 00:04:01.099 --> 00:04:03.219 Bangladesh happened. Exactly. Harrison had to 00:04:03.219 --> 00:04:05.460 drop everything for that. So Rundgren gets called 00:04:05.460 --> 00:04:07.879 in to basically rescue the project and finish 00:04:07.879 --> 00:04:11.050 the album. And it was a hit album. big hit but 00:04:11.050 --> 00:04:13.370 run grin later mentioned feeling a bit slighted 00:04:13.370 --> 00:04:17.050 he said because of uh beetle hubris he didn't 00:04:17.050 --> 00:04:19.310 get the producer credit for the big single day 00:04:19.310 --> 00:04:21.649 after day even though he worked on it interesting 00:04:21.649 --> 00:04:24.410 politics even then yeah but he wasn't just fixing 00:04:24.410 --> 00:04:26.509 things he was launching careers too definitely 00:04:26.509 --> 00:04:29.670 he produced the debut album for a band called 00:04:29.670 --> 00:04:33.410 half nelson in 1971. a half nelson never heard 00:04:33.410 --> 00:04:34.829 of them well you've heard of who they became 00:04:34.829 --> 00:04:39.069 sparks ah okay sparks make sense Yeah, and the 00:04:39.069 --> 00:04:41.110 Male Brothers have always credited Run -Grin 00:04:41.110 --> 00:04:43.149 with basically launching their career with that 00:04:43.149 --> 00:04:45.689 first record, giving them their sound. So he's 00:04:45.689 --> 00:04:48.069 building this incredible production resume. Let's 00:04:48.069 --> 00:04:51.230 talk about 1973. That year seems massive for 00:04:51.230 --> 00:04:53.629 him as a producer. It's honestly kind of staggering. 00:04:53.870 --> 00:04:57.509 He produces two absolutely huge but completely 00:04:57.509 --> 00:04:59.870 different seminal albums that year. Okay, what 00:04:59.870 --> 00:05:02.110 were they? First, you've got Grand Funk Railroads, 00:05:02.310 --> 00:05:05.610 We're an American Band, Massive Arena Rock Anthem, 00:05:05.610 --> 00:05:08.610 the album hit number two. quintessential 70s 00:05:08.610 --> 00:05:10.889 rock. Total mainstream success. And the other 00:05:10.889 --> 00:05:13.689 one. Almost immediately after, he produces the 00:05:13.689 --> 00:05:16.769 debut album by the New York Dolls. Wow. Talk 00:05:16.769 --> 00:05:18.930 about a contrast. The Dolls' debut is basically 00:05:18.930 --> 00:05:22.670 proto -punk, right? raw aggressive exactly it's 00:05:22.670 --> 00:05:24.529 considered a foundational record for punk rock 00:05:24.529 --> 00:05:27.649 so in the same year he's behind this huge polished 00:05:27.649 --> 00:05:31.930 rock hit and this raw sleazy groundbreaking punk 00:05:31.930 --> 00:05:34.829 precursor that's incredible range did he get 00:05:34.829 --> 00:05:37.230 pigeonholed as a punk producer after that strangely 00:05:37.230 --> 00:05:40.110 no he never really became the punk guy despite 00:05:40.110 --> 00:05:42.649 that album's importance it just showed he could 00:05:42.649 --> 00:05:45.250 operate anywhere musically and this production 00:05:45.250 --> 00:05:47.670 work just kept rolling culminating in something 00:05:47.670 --> 00:05:50.930 massive absolutely the Peak, commercially speaking, 00:05:51.089 --> 00:05:53.990 was probably Meatloaf's Bat Out of Hell in 1977. 00:05:54.410 --> 00:05:57.089 An absolute monster of an album. So theatrical. 00:05:57.370 --> 00:05:59.410 Totally. And that's where Rundgren's technical 00:05:59.410 --> 00:06:02.149 skill was essential. Jim Steinman songs were 00:06:02.149 --> 00:06:05.430 these huge Wagnerian epics. You needed someone 00:06:05.430 --> 00:06:07.649 who could actually build that sound layer upon 00:06:07.649 --> 00:06:11.069 layer to get that bombastic operatic feel. Rundgren 00:06:11.069 --> 00:06:13.350 was the guy. So we know he was technically brilliant. 00:06:13.610 --> 00:06:15.790 But what was he like to work with in the studio? 00:06:15.889 --> 00:06:18.350 What was his style? Sources often describe him 00:06:18.350 --> 00:06:21.649 as a songcraft agitator. He wasn't just hitting 00:06:21.649 --> 00:06:24.589 record. He'd get involved, push bands, challenge 00:06:24.589 --> 00:06:27.949 their arrangements. Did he co -write stuff? Apparently, 00:06:27.949 --> 00:06:31.209 he often finished or significantly reworked songs 00:06:31.209 --> 00:06:34.250 for bands. But here's the thing. He'd usually 00:06:34.250 --> 00:06:36.829 refuse to take a writing credit. Really? Why? 00:06:37.029 --> 00:06:40.009 It seems his main interest was the technical 00:06:40.009 --> 00:06:42.490 challenge, the sound, the production puzzle, 00:06:42.629 --> 00:06:46.149 not necessarily the songwriting royalties. He 00:06:46.149 --> 00:06:48.490 wanted to make the record sound right his way. 00:06:48.860 --> 00:06:50.600 That approach must have caused some friction 00:06:50.600 --> 00:06:53.180 sometimes. Definitely. The most famous example 00:06:53.180 --> 00:06:56.420 is probably XTC's Skylarking album from 1986. 00:06:57.040 --> 00:06:59.699 Ah, yes. The legendary Difficult Sessions. Absolutely 00:06:59.699 --> 00:07:03.079 notorious. Andy Partridge from XTC and Rundgren 00:07:03.079 --> 00:07:06.019 apparently clashed constantly. Arguments about 00:07:06.019 --> 00:07:09.079 songs, sounds, direction, everything. You'd think 00:07:09.079 --> 00:07:10.800 the album would sound like a mess, though. But 00:07:10.800 --> 00:07:13.040 it's the total opposite. Skylarking is widely 00:07:13.040 --> 00:07:16.420 seen as maybe the best album XTC ever made and 00:07:16.420 --> 00:07:18.660 one of Rundgren's finest productions. jobs. How 00:07:18.660 --> 00:07:21.300 does that work? It's that agitator thing, maybe? 00:07:22.060 --> 00:07:25.319 Channeling the tension into creativity? Rundgren 00:07:25.319 --> 00:07:27.459 himself admitted it was tough, but he also said 00:07:27.459 --> 00:07:29.800 something like, the finished record sounds like 00:07:29.800 --> 00:07:32.980 they were all having a great time, which is ironic. 00:07:33.480 --> 00:07:35.860 So this demanding style comes up elsewhere, too. 00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:38.680 Yeah, you hear echoes of it. Greg Graffin from 00:07:38.680 --> 00:07:40.439 Bad Religion worked with him later and called 00:07:40.439 --> 00:07:43.379 him very honest and challenging, said Rundgren 00:07:43.379 --> 00:07:45.779 pushed them. It sounds like he demanded a certain 00:07:45.779 --> 00:07:48.139 level of rigor. But not everyone loved it. There 00:07:48.139 --> 00:07:50.339 are conflicting stories, right? Exactly. You 00:07:50.339 --> 00:07:53.360 get the other side, too. Ev Olkut from the band 00:07:53.360 --> 00:07:56.879 12 Rods had a completely different take. He claimed 00:07:56.879 --> 00:07:59.540 Rengren basically just hit record and then did 00:07:59.540 --> 00:08:02.920 crossword puzzles while they played. Genius or 00:08:02.920 --> 00:08:05.779 aloof puzzle master? Maybe a bit of both. It 00:08:05.779 --> 00:08:08.379 paints a picture of someone intensely focused, 00:08:08.480 --> 00:08:10.420 maybe not on the hand -holding aspect, but on 00:08:10.420 --> 00:08:12.779 the technical result. And remember, he later 00:08:12.779 --> 00:08:15.839 self -diagnosed with ADD, which might shed some 00:08:15.839 --> 00:08:18.339 light on that kind of hyper -focus mixed with 00:08:18.339 --> 00:08:20.980 seeming detachment. Okay, so this production 00:08:20.980 --> 00:08:23.839 success, the money, the reputation. That's the 00:08:23.839 --> 00:08:27.100 engine. It's the absolute tea. It gave him what 00:08:27.100 --> 00:08:30.350 almost no other artist had. the financial independence, 00:08:30.730 --> 00:08:32.669 to do whatever the hell he wanted with his own 00:08:32.669 --> 00:08:35.049 music. He didn't need his solo albums to sell 00:08:35.049 --> 00:08:37.669 millions. Precisely. He could afford to be weird, 00:08:37.710 --> 00:08:40.950 experimental, difficult, because the production 00:08:40.950 --> 00:08:43.129 work paid the bills. He essentially bought his 00:08:43.129 --> 00:08:45.450 artistic freedom. Which brings us nicely into 00:08:45.450 --> 00:08:48.490 his solo work during that Bearsville era, roughly 00:08:48.490 --> 00:08:52.009 1970 to 1984. This is where he really stretches 00:08:52.009 --> 00:08:53.870 out. Yeah, this is where he uses that freedom. 00:08:54.049 --> 00:08:56.970 But interestingly... The peak of his accessible 00:08:56.970 --> 00:09:00.509 pop craft comes quite early in this period. The 00:09:00.509 --> 00:09:03.750 double album Something Anything in 1972. Right. 00:09:03.830 --> 00:09:06.649 The one with the big hits. Tell us about making 00:09:06.649 --> 00:09:08.909 that record. It sounds intense. The stories are 00:09:08.909 --> 00:09:11.210 wild. Apparently he was experimenting with Ritalin 00:09:11.210 --> 00:09:14.629 to stay focused for these marathon, like 12 -hour 00:09:14.629 --> 00:09:17.289 recording sessions. Ritalin. Yeah. Balanced with 00:09:17.289 --> 00:09:19.470 marijuana use, according to the sources. And 00:09:19.470 --> 00:09:21.909 he basically turned his living room into a studio 00:09:21.909 --> 00:09:25.379 with an eight -track recorder and synth. Locked 00:09:25.379 --> 00:09:26.860 himself away. And he played almost everything 00:09:26.860 --> 00:09:29.580 himself. On about three sides of the double album, 00:09:29.720 --> 00:09:34.460 yeah. Bass, drums, guitar, keys, vocals. Pretty 00:09:34.460 --> 00:09:36.860 much a one -man band. A real statement of self 00:09:36.860 --> 00:09:38.639 -sufficiency. And it worked commercially, big 00:09:38.639 --> 00:09:40.919 time. Oh, yeah. It had I Saw the Light, which 00:09:40.919 --> 00:09:43.700 was a decent hit, number 16. And then the re 00:09:43.700 --> 00:09:46.039 -recorded version of Hello, It's Me became massive, 00:09:46.159 --> 00:09:49.179 hit number five in 1973. But the album's influence 00:09:49.179 --> 00:09:51.700 goes beyond just those hits, doesn't it? Especially 00:09:51.700 --> 00:09:54.269 for power pop. Hugely important for power pop. 00:09:54.389 --> 00:09:56.610 Tracks like Couldn't I Just Tell You, critics 00:09:56.610 --> 00:09:59.090 still point to that as like a perfect example 00:09:59.090 --> 00:10:01.690 of the genre. Some call it one of the greatest 00:10:01.690 --> 00:10:03.730 power pop songs ever recorded. It's got that 00:10:03.730 --> 00:10:06.190 blend of melody, energy hooks. And the album 00:10:06.190 --> 00:10:08.070 itself was kind of quirky, wasn't it? Not just 00:10:08.070 --> 00:10:10.210 pop songs. Right. It's a double LP, so there's 00:10:10.210 --> 00:10:13.070 room for everything. Straight pop hits sit alongside 00:10:13.070 --> 00:10:16.750 these long jams, weird studio experiments, even 00:10:16.750 --> 00:10:19.190 jokes like the sounds of the studio game where 00:10:19.190 --> 00:10:21.429 he challenges listeners to find mistakes. Like 00:10:21.429 --> 00:10:25.019 pop su - crackles. Yeah, hiss, bad edits. It 00:10:25.019 --> 00:10:27.799 was very meta, very Rundgren. The whole thing 00:10:27.799 --> 00:10:30.960 felt personal, idiosyncratic, and it was hugely 00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:33.899 successful. went gold rolling stone ranked it 00:10:33.899 --> 00:10:36.620 high on their greatest albums list he was basically 00:10:36.620 --> 00:10:39.580 crowned the new king of sophisticated pop the 00:10:39.580 --> 00:10:42.639 male carol king as some called him exactly and 00:10:42.639 --> 00:10:45.519 he hated it hated the success hated the label 00:10:45.519 --> 00:10:48.320 he felt being called the male carol king was 00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:51.539 limiting he apparently saw that kind of successful 00:10:51.539 --> 00:10:54.600 melodic songwriting he just mastered as being 00:10:54.600 --> 00:10:57.820 in his own words formulaic and born from laziness 00:10:57.820 --> 00:11:00.559 wow so he conquers the pop world and immediately 00:11:00.559 --> 00:11:02.389 wants to tear it down pretty much he had the 00:11:02.389 --> 00:11:03.970 producer money remember so he didn't need to 00:11:03.970 --> 00:11:06.350 keep making something anything he decided to 00:11:06.350 --> 00:11:08.549 deliberately sabotage that image and the result 00:11:08.549 --> 00:11:12.549 was a wizard a true star in 1973 the ultimate 00:11:12.549 --> 00:11:15.289 pivot he wanted the follow -up to be more eclectic 00:11:15.289 --> 00:11:17.789 and more experimental a complete rejection of 00:11:17.789 --> 00:11:20.629 the pop formula and this is where the extracurricular 00:11:20.629 --> 00:11:23.149 activities come in Yeah, the sound and structure 00:11:23.149 --> 00:11:26.149 of Wizard were, by his own admission, heavily 00:11:26.149 --> 00:11:28.509 influenced by his experiments with psychedelic 00:11:28.509 --> 00:11:32.649 drugs, mescaline, psilocybin, mushrooms. So he 00:11:32.649 --> 00:11:34.250 was trying to translate that experience into 00:11:34.250 --> 00:11:36.750 music. That seems to be the idea. He didn't see 00:11:36.750 --> 00:11:38.909 it as songs, but as a flight plan. It starts 00:11:38.909 --> 00:11:42.470 chaotic, dense, disorienting, then gradually 00:11:42.470 --> 00:11:45.649 finds its way to these more melodic, soulful 00:11:45.649 --> 00:11:48.570 pieces at the end. He literally said he wanted 00:11:48.570 --> 00:11:51.440 to imprint the chaos in his head on to a record. 00:11:51.559 --> 00:11:53.639 That sounds like commercial suicide after, hello, 00:11:53.759 --> 00:11:56.720 it's me. He knew it. He called Wizard his act 00:11:56.720 --> 00:11:58.919 of tyranny after having achieved commercial success. 00:11:59.259 --> 00:12:02.039 He was deliberately challenging, even alienating 00:12:02.039 --> 00:12:03.740 the audience he'd just built. And did it work? 00:12:03.980 --> 00:12:06.559 Did he alienate them? Reports say he lost about 00:12:06.559 --> 00:12:08.519 half his audience right there. But crucially, 00:12:08.620 --> 00:12:10.840 this move established the pattern for the rest 00:12:10.840 --> 00:12:14.100 of his career. Artistic exploration first, commercial 00:12:14.100 --> 00:12:16.860 concerns a distant second. The timing was pretty 00:12:16.860 --> 00:12:19.500 stark too, right? Wizard comes out just as, hello, 00:12:19.679 --> 00:12:22.500 it's me, is climbing the charts. Exactly. So 00:12:22.500 --> 00:12:24.799 the public image is this sensitive ballad guy. 00:12:24.960 --> 00:12:28.039 And the new album is this sprawling, psychedelic, 00:12:28.039 --> 00:12:30.000 sometimes difficult head trip. It couldn't have 00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:32.120 been a starker contrast. But Wizard has had a 00:12:32.120 --> 00:12:34.970 long life, hasn't it? Influential. Massively 00:12:34.970 --> 00:12:37.149 influential, especially on later generations 00:12:37.149 --> 00:12:39.470 of home recording artists, the bedroom auteurs. 00:12:39.529 --> 00:12:42.350 It's seen as this landmark of artistic freedom 00:12:42.350 --> 00:12:45.490 and studio experimentation. Mojo magazine even 00:12:45.490 --> 00:12:47.929 called it the greatest album of all time back 00:12:47.929 --> 00:12:51.330 in 2003. So after Wizard, where does he go next? 00:12:51.450 --> 00:12:53.850 He's blown up the pop star thing. He dives deeper 00:12:53.850 --> 00:12:57.049 into complexity, forms the band Utopia in 1973. 00:12:57.490 --> 00:13:00.340 Okay, Utopia. What was their initial sound? Pure 00:13:00.340 --> 00:13:03.100 progressive rock initially. Really complex stuff. 00:13:03.179 --> 00:13:05.440 Lots of intricate playing. Sources point to influences 00:13:05.440 --> 00:13:08.620 like Frank Zappa, Mahavishnu Orchestra. Serious 00:13:08.620 --> 00:13:11.200 musicianship. Their first album was Todd Rundgren's 00:13:11.200 --> 00:13:14.259 Utopia in 74. Yep, that was his full plunge into 00:13:14.259 --> 00:13:16.360 Prague. But it wasn't just musical complexity 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:19.139 he was exploring. His solo album from the same 00:13:19.139 --> 00:13:21.600 year, Todd. Another double album, right? Yeah. 00:13:22.139 --> 00:13:24.480 That one really leaned into the spiritual and 00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:27.059 philosophical side. Drawing on the psychedelic 00:13:27.059 --> 00:13:29.720 experiences, but also his reading. What was he 00:13:29.720 --> 00:13:32.480 reading? He got heavily into stuff like Theosophy 00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:35.700 Madame Blavatsky and thinkers like Jiddu Krishnamurti, 00:13:35.720 --> 00:13:39.000 Rudolf Steiner, exploring mysticism, esoteric 00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:41.620 ideas. Trying to put that into music. Sounds 00:13:41.620 --> 00:13:45.340 ambitious. Extremely. This phase peaked with 00:13:45.340 --> 00:13:49.360 the 1975 album Initiation. One whole side is 00:13:49.360 --> 00:13:51.700 taken up by a single piece called A Treatise 00:13:51.700 --> 00:13:54.480 on Cosmic Fire. How long of that? Over 35 minutes 00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:57.059 long. Wow. Okay, that's definitely not I saw 00:13:57.059 --> 00:13:59.659 the light. Not even close. It shows how far he 00:13:59.659 --> 00:14:02.539 was willing to push things. But then, just to 00:14:02.539 --> 00:14:04.870 keep everyone guessing... He pivots again. Back 00:14:04.870 --> 00:14:08.289 towards accessibility. Sort of. In 1978, he releases 00:14:08.289 --> 00:14:10.970 Hermit of Mink Hollow. This came after a period 00:14:10.970 --> 00:14:13.470 of personal upheaval, separating from his girlfriend 00:14:13.470 --> 00:14:16.750 at the time, Bebe Buell. So a more personal stripped 00:14:16.750 --> 00:14:19.710 -down record. Exactly. He made it mostly by himself 00:14:19.710 --> 00:14:22.389 again, focusing on more direct, melodic songs 00:14:22.389 --> 00:14:24.730 he could play on piano or guitar, a conscious 00:14:24.730 --> 00:14:26.789 return to more straightforward songwriting. And 00:14:26.789 --> 00:14:29.279 did that connect commercially? It did. It had 00:14:29.279 --> 00:14:31.519 the single Can We Still Be Friends, which became 00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:33.620 another decent hit for him, reaching number 29. 00:14:33.860 --> 00:14:36.080 That song's been covered a lot, hasn't it? Loads. 00:14:36.080 --> 00:14:38.360 Robert Palmer had a big hit with it. Rod Stewart 00:14:38.360 --> 00:14:40.759 covered it. It's probably his most covered song. 00:14:41.580 --> 00:14:44.460 Proves that pop sensibility was always there, 00:14:44.620 --> 00:14:47.419 even when he chose to bury it under layers of 00:14:47.419 --> 00:14:50.360 prog or psychedelia. So he can turn the pop tap 00:14:50.360 --> 00:14:53.139 back on when he wants to. Seems like it. Which 00:14:53.139 --> 00:14:56.159 leads us into maybe the most surprising dimension 00:14:56.159 --> 00:14:58.879 of his career. the technological pioneering. 00:14:58.960 --> 00:15:01.759 Right, section three. This is where Wizard takes 00:15:01.759 --> 00:15:04.080 on a whole new meaning. He wasn't just using 00:15:04.080 --> 00:15:06.759 studio tech, he was creating new tech. He really 00:15:06.759 --> 00:15:09.799 was way ahead of the curve, especially in visuals 00:15:09.799 --> 00:15:12.799 and computing. Back in 1978, think about that. 00:15:13.019 --> 00:15:15.879 He organized what's considered the first interactive 00:15:15.879 --> 00:15:18.940 television concert. Interactive how? In 1978. 00:15:19.460 --> 00:15:21.480 Details are a bit sketchy, but it involved audience 00:15:21.480 --> 00:15:24.360 participation via broadcast, very rudimentary 00:15:24.360 --> 00:15:27.039 by today's standards, but conceptually... groundbreaking. 00:15:27.820 --> 00:15:31.399 Then think about MTV launching in 1981. His video 00:15:31.399 --> 00:15:34.600 was one of the first ones shown. Yep. The video 00:15:34.600 --> 00:15:37.179 for Time Heals from his Healing album, right 00:15:37.179 --> 00:15:39.820 there on day one, among the very first batch 00:15:39.820 --> 00:15:43.080 of videos MTV ever aired. He understood the visual 00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:45.679 medium early. But the computer stuff is even 00:15:45.679 --> 00:15:48.080 more mind -blowing for the time. It really is. 00:15:48.200 --> 00:15:51.279 In 1981, he develops one of the very first computer 00:15:51.279 --> 00:15:53.899 paint programs. It was called the Utopia Graphics 00:15:53.899 --> 00:15:56.120 System. And this was running on what? Not a Mac 00:15:56.120 --> 00:15:59.700 or PC. An Apple, too. This is years before user 00:15:59.700 --> 00:16:01.759 -friendly graphics software became common. He 00:16:01.759 --> 00:16:03.419 was building the tools himself because they didn't 00:16:03.419 --> 00:16:05.539 exist yet. That's incredible. He's a rock star 00:16:05.539 --> 00:16:08.259 coding graphics programs in the early 80s. And 00:16:08.259 --> 00:16:10.740 he stayed on that edge. Later, he was a huge 00:16:10.740 --> 00:16:13.340 early champion of the new tech video toaster. 00:16:13.500 --> 00:16:16.080 Ah, the video toaster. That was huge for desktop 00:16:16.080 --> 00:16:18.679 video later on. Massive. And Renegren wasn't 00:16:18.679 --> 00:16:21.039 just using it. He was pushing its limits. He 00:16:21.039 --> 00:16:23.620 made the video for his song Change Myself using 00:16:23.620 --> 00:16:25.759 the poster, and it was... It was so advanced, 00:16:25.960 --> 00:16:28.600 so innovative, that NewTek actually used it as 00:16:28.600 --> 00:16:31.340 an official demo reel to sell the system. So 00:16:31.340 --> 00:16:33.419 he's literally showcasing the future of video 00:16:33.419 --> 00:16:36.039 production. Pretty much. He also co -developed 00:16:36.039 --> 00:16:38.960 stuff like the Flow Phaser screensaver, always 00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:41.940 tinkering with computer -generated visuals. Okay, 00:16:42.000 --> 00:16:44.440 so he's deep into graphics and video tech. How 00:16:44.440 --> 00:16:46.539 does that connect back to the music side besides 00:16:46.539 --> 00:16:49.299 videos? This is where it gets really visionary. 00:16:49.899 --> 00:16:52.759 He starts applying these interactive and digital 00:16:52.759 --> 00:16:56.899 ideas to music distribution and format. In 1993, 00:16:57.259 --> 00:17:00.299 he releases an album under the name T .R .I. 00:17:00.360 --> 00:17:03.659 T .R .I. Todd Rundgren Interactive. The album 00:17:03.659 --> 00:17:05.859 was called No World Order. And it wasn't just 00:17:05.859 --> 00:17:08.160 a normal CD. Not at all. It was designed for 00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:10.180 the Philips CDI platform, which was this early 00:17:10.180 --> 00:17:13.000 multimedia player. The album was actually hundreds 00:17:13.000 --> 00:17:16.359 of tiny musical loops and snippets. Snippets, 00:17:16.359 --> 00:17:18.440 so you didn't just listen? No. You, the listener, 00:17:18.619 --> 00:17:20.660 could combine these snippets, change the tempo, 00:17:20.799 --> 00:17:22.779 the mood, the style, basically construct your 00:17:22.779 --> 00:17:25.359 own version of the song or the album. He provided 00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:28.339 some pre -made mixes, but the core idea was interactivity. 00:17:28.460 --> 00:17:31.019 You became a collaborator. That sounds way ahead 00:17:31.019 --> 00:17:33.559 of its time, like remix culture before remix 00:17:33.559 --> 00:17:36.599 culture. Exactly. Decades before things like 00:17:36.599 --> 00:17:39.619 GarageBand or interactive music apps became common, 00:17:39.819 --> 00:17:42.759 he was already thinking about music not as a 00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:45.759 fixed object, but as raw material for the listener 00:17:45.759 --> 00:17:48.019 to play with. Okay, that's conceptually wild. 00:17:48.180 --> 00:17:50.000 But then he took it even further with distribution, 00:17:50.299 --> 00:17:53.279 right? Cutting out the labels. Oh, yeah. This 00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:55.789 was maybe his most radical move. In the late 00:17:55.789 --> 00:17:58.470 1990s, way before this was standard practice, 00:17:58.890 --> 00:18:01.329 he and his manager launched something called 00:18:01.329 --> 00:18:04.430 Patronet. Patronet. Like patronage. Precisely. 00:18:04.430 --> 00:18:07.029 It was a subscription service. Fans would pay 00:18:07.029 --> 00:18:10.009 directly to get access to his new music, works 00:18:10.009 --> 00:18:12.740 in progress, unreleased stuff. Direct from him. 00:18:12.779 --> 00:18:14.839 Outing out the record company completely. Totally. 00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:18.400 This was years before Kickstarter, Patreon, Bandcamp. 00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:21.279 He was pioneering the direct -to -fan model using 00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:23.559 the internet when most labels were still trying 00:18:23.559 --> 00:18:25.900 to figure out websites. Again, only possible 00:18:25.900 --> 00:18:28.019 because he had that independent producer income. 00:18:28.519 --> 00:18:30.839 Absolutely. He didn't need the label advance 00:18:30.839 --> 00:18:33.400 or distribution network anymore. He just bypassed 00:18:33.400 --> 00:18:35.440 the whole system. And he still does it today, 00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:37.960 offering music directly to subscribers through 00:18:37.960 --> 00:18:40.200 his website. He basically saw the writing on 00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:43.180 the wall for the old industry model way early. 00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:45.440 Okay, before we get into the personal side and 00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:47.420 recognition, let's quickly touch on the music 00:18:47.420 --> 00:18:49.420 that came after that main Bearsville run. Right. 00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:52.240 His last album for Bairdville was the ever -popular 00:18:52.240 --> 00:18:55.880 Tortured Artist Effect in 1982. And that had 00:18:55.880 --> 00:18:58.720 a song that became unexpectedly huge later on. 00:18:58.839 --> 00:19:00.759 Bang the Drum All Day. That's the one. It was 00:19:00.759 --> 00:19:03.019 only a minor chart hit when it came out. Sort 00:19:03.019 --> 00:19:05.019 of ended his relationship with the label on a 00:19:05.019 --> 00:19:08.059 quiet note. But then... Sports arenas. Commercials. 00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:11.299 Exactly. It became this ubiquitous anthem, especially 00:19:11.299 --> 00:19:13.740 at Green Bay Packers games apparently. and in 00:19:13.740 --> 00:19:16.079 Carnival Cruise ads. It ended up being one of 00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:18.680 his most famous and probably most lucrative songs 00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:21.519 just through licensing years later. Funny how 00:19:21.519 --> 00:19:23.559 that happens. His experimental side didn't stop 00:19:23.559 --> 00:19:26.920 either, did it? Yeah. The A Cappella album. Right, 00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:31.119 1985. An entire album made using only his voice. 00:19:31.720 --> 00:19:34.240 Multi -tracked harmonies, but also programmed 00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:36.660 vocal samples, creating all the instrumental 00:19:36.660 --> 00:19:39.920 sounds. Just voices. That sounds incredibly difficult 00:19:39.920 --> 00:19:42.460 to arrange. Hugely complex. And interestingly, 00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:45.279 years later, critics pointed to it as a clear 00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:48.039 precedent for albums like Björk's Medulla, which 00:19:48.039 --> 00:19:51.319 famously used only vocal sounds. Rundgren was 00:19:51.319 --> 00:19:53.980 exploring that territory almost 20 years earlier. 00:19:54.140 --> 00:19:55.700 And then he returned to more traditional sounds 00:19:55.700 --> 00:19:58.400 later. Yeah, in the late 80s, early 90s, albums 00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:01.039 like Nearly Human and Second Wind saw him circle 00:20:01.130 --> 00:20:03.809 back to his Philly soul roots. But even then, 00:20:03.869 --> 00:20:06.690 there was a twist. How so? He recorded them live 00:20:06.690 --> 00:20:09.289 in the studio, the whole band playing together 00:20:09.289 --> 00:20:11.809 in single takes, trying to capture that live 00:20:11.809 --> 00:20:14.319 energy. Second Wind was even recorded in front 00:20:14.319 --> 00:20:16.119 of a studio audience who were instructed to be 00:20:16.119 --> 00:20:18.240 completely silent. Capturing the performance, 00:20:18.359 --> 00:20:20.420 but not the applause. Always experimenting with 00:20:20.420 --> 00:20:22.579 the process. Always. Which brings us to the final 00:20:22.579 --> 00:20:25.099 section. The connections, the personal stories, 00:20:25.299 --> 00:20:28.039 the recognition, or lack thereof, for a while. 00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:30.420 There were some feuds along the way, right? The 00:20:30.420 --> 00:20:33.799 John Lennon one is pretty famous. Yeah. A brief 00:20:33.799 --> 00:20:38.180 but very public spat back in 1974, Rundgren gave 00:20:38.180 --> 00:20:40.839 an interview to Melody Maker, accused Lennon 00:20:40.839 --> 00:20:42.799 of hitting a waitress and called him a fucking 00:20:42.799 --> 00:20:45.680 idiot for his revolutionary posturing. Ouch. 00:20:45.859 --> 00:20:49.000 How did Lennon respond? With typical Lennonesque 00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:52.279 wit and venom, he publicly referred to Rundgren 00:20:52.279 --> 00:20:55.519 as turd runt green. Classy. Did they patch it 00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:57.559 up? Apparently, they agreed to drop it later. 00:20:57.720 --> 00:21:00.119 But the story takes a really disturbing turn 00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:02.980 years later, connecting Rundgren to Lennon's 00:21:02.980 --> 00:21:05.539 death. Oh, so this is the Mark David Chapman 00:21:05.539 --> 00:21:07.980 connection. Yeah. Rundgren himself didn't know 00:21:07.980 --> 00:21:10.420 this until much later, but Chapman, the man who 00:21:10.420 --> 00:21:12.599 killed Lennon, was apparently an obsessive Todd 00:21:12.599 --> 00:21:15.299 Rundgren fan. Seriously? When Chapman was arrested 00:21:15.299 --> 00:21:17.940 outside the Dakota in 1980, reports say he was 00:21:17.940 --> 00:21:19.980 wearing a promotional t -shirt for Rundgren's 00:21:19.980 --> 00:21:22.420 album Hermit of Mink Hollow. That's chilling. 00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:24.940 And he supposedly had a copy of Rundgren's biography, 00:21:25.299 --> 00:21:28.259 The Ballad of Todd Rundgren, with him too. It's 00:21:28.259 --> 00:21:30.759 this incredibly strange, dark coincidence linking 00:21:30.759 --> 00:21:33.220 him to the tragedy, especially given their earlier 00:21:33.220 --> 00:21:37.980 public feud. Wow. That's heavy. Shifting gears 00:21:37.980 --> 00:21:40.759 to something less tragic, but still complicated 00:21:40.759 --> 00:21:42.920 his personal life, particularly the connection 00:21:42.920 --> 00:21:45.720 to Liv Tyler. Right, the Bebe Buell relationship. 00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:48.440 They were together in the early mid -70s. And 00:21:48.440 --> 00:21:50.720 during a break, Buell had a relationship with 00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:53.119 Steven Tyler. Correct, which resulted in the 00:21:53.119 --> 00:21:56.980 birth of Liv Tyler in 1977. But initially, Bebe 00:21:56.980 --> 00:21:59.960 Buell told everyone, including Todd, that he 00:21:59.960 --> 00:22:02.640 was the father. And he stepped up. Completely. 00:22:03.309 --> 00:22:05.690 He signed the birth certificate, committed to 00:22:05.690 --> 00:22:08.490 raising Liv as his daughter. He knew there might 00:22:08.490 --> 00:22:11.190 be uncertainty, but he chose to be her father. 00:22:11.369 --> 00:22:13.529 Even though he wasn't biologically. Right. Liv 00:22:13.529 --> 00:22:16.170 found out Steven Tyler was her biological father 00:22:16.170 --> 00:22:19.130 when she was about 11. But the bond with Rundgren 00:22:19.130 --> 00:22:21.650 was already solidified. And they're still close 00:22:21.650 --> 00:22:24.450 today. Incredibly close. Liv has always emphasized 00:22:24.450 --> 00:22:26.430 that Rundgren is her father in the ways that 00:22:26.430 --> 00:22:29.130 matter. She talks about how he feels like daddy. 00:22:29.430 --> 00:22:32.170 It's a really powerful story about chosen family 00:22:32.170 --> 00:22:34.539 and commitment. That says a lot about him. Did 00:22:34.539 --> 00:22:36.579 he have other children? Yes. He has two sons, 00:22:36.779 --> 00:22:39.019 Rex and Randy, from a long relationship with 00:22:39.019 --> 00:22:41.240 Karen Darvin. And then later, with his wife, 00:22:41.380 --> 00:22:44.440 Michelle Gray, he has a son named Rebop and an 00:22:44.440 --> 00:22:47.140 adopted son, Keone. Seems like fatherhood was 00:22:47.140 --> 00:22:49.000 important to him. Okay, let's talk recognition. 00:22:49.700 --> 00:22:52.759 We mentioned the ADD self -diagnosis, which maybe 00:22:52.759 --> 00:22:54.980 explains some of the relentless energy. Yeah, 00:22:55.000 --> 00:22:57.740 that drive to constantly learn and create across 00:22:57.740 --> 00:23:00.019 different fields makes a certain kind of sense 00:23:00.019 --> 00:23:02.500 in that context. But the big one. The elephant 00:23:02.500 --> 00:23:04.960 in the room for decades was a Rock and Roll Hall 00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:07.960 of Fame. Oh, yeah. He was eligible way back in 00:23:07.960 --> 00:23:11.740 1995, but for years, nothing. And Todd himself 00:23:11.740 --> 00:23:14.160 wasn't exactly lobbying for it. He was pretty 00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:16.579 outspoken against it, wasn't he? Very. He called 00:23:16.579 --> 00:23:18.940 the whole process corrupt, basically dismissed 00:23:18.940 --> 00:23:21.680 the institution as meaningless, part of the commercial 00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:24.460 machine he'd always rebelled against. He made 00:23:24.460 --> 00:23:26.960 it crystal clear he did not care one bit about 00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:30.380 being inducted. Classic Rundgren. So what happened? 00:23:30.460 --> 00:23:32.440 The ultimate irony, they finally inducted him 00:23:32.440 --> 00:23:35.660 in 2021. There you go. Of course not. He refused 00:23:35.660 --> 00:23:38.319 to attend the ceremony, stayed true to his principles, 00:23:38.519 --> 00:23:40.980 or maybe just his contrarian nature right to 00:23:40.980 --> 00:23:43.680 the end. It was the perfect run -grin ending 00:23:43.680 --> 00:23:45.900 to that whole saga. Even without the Hall of 00:23:45.900 --> 00:23:47.900 Fame for a long time, he did get other honors, 00:23:48.019 --> 00:23:50.119 right? Especially for the tech stuff. Definitely. 00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:52.880 He got a Grammy nomination way back in 84 for 00:23:52.880 --> 00:23:54.880 Best Music Video, which acknowledged his visual 00:23:54.880 --> 00:23:57.740 pioneering. He received Lifetime Achievement 00:23:57.740 --> 00:23:59.960 Awards, honorary doctorates from places like 00:23:59.960 --> 00:24:03.180 Berkeley and DePauw University. Those kinds of 00:24:03.180 --> 00:24:05.230 academic - and technical recognitions seemed 00:24:05.230 --> 00:24:09.369 more his speed. So wrapping this all up, how 00:24:09.369 --> 00:24:12.210 do we synthesize this incredibly varied, complex 00:24:12.210 --> 00:24:14.890 career? I think the defining word is maverick. 00:24:15.240 --> 00:24:17.720 His entire career feels like a deliberate refusal 00:24:17.720 --> 00:24:20.519 to follow the expected path. He could have been 00:24:20.519 --> 00:24:23.059 a massive, consistent pop star. He could have 00:24:23.059 --> 00:24:25.759 just been a hugely successful producer. He wouldn't 00:24:25.759 --> 00:24:28.720 settle. Never. He used the security from one 00:24:28.720 --> 00:24:31.099 field production to fund his deliberate experimentation 00:24:31.099 --> 00:24:33.940 and, frankly, commercial risks in another, his 00:24:33.940 --> 00:24:36.519 solo work and his tech ventures. That producer 00:24:36.519 --> 00:24:39.559 income was the rare luxury, as one source put 00:24:39.559 --> 00:24:42.250 it, that allowed him to prioritize freedom. It's 00:24:42.250 --> 00:24:44.609 just wild to think the same person made Hello 00:24:44.609 --> 00:24:47.589 It's Me, produced Bad Out of Hell, and designed 00:24:47.589 --> 00:24:50.509 an early computer paint program, and pioneered 00:24:50.509 --> 00:24:53.839 interactive music. It's that refusal to be categorized. 00:24:53.980 --> 00:24:56.740 Stephen Thomas Erlewine nailed it when he called 00:24:56.740 --> 00:25:00.039 Rundgren a rock and roll maverick who consciously 00:25:00.039 --> 00:25:04.119 chose to abandon easy stardom to explore uncharted 00:25:04.119 --> 00:25:07.000 musical territory. So what's the final thought 00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:09.599 we leave our listeners with? What's the core 00:25:09.599 --> 00:25:11.660 driver behind all this relentless innovation 00:25:11.660 --> 00:25:15.200 and genre hopping? Well, Rundgren himself gave 00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:17.700 a clue once. He said something profound about 00:25:17.700 --> 00:25:20.299 his ultimate goal. What was that? He said that 00:25:20.299 --> 00:25:22.660 if he could achieve just one minute of total 00:25:22.660 --> 00:25:25.220 illumination, then he wouldn't care if his whole 00:25:25.220 --> 00:25:27.440 career went down the drain because he'd know 00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:29.900 there was an answer to everything, to existence, 00:25:30.140 --> 00:25:33.180 to death. Wow. That's a heavy motivation. It 00:25:33.180 --> 00:25:35.019 reframes everything, doesn't it? Maybe all the 00:25:35.019 --> 00:25:37.099 music, the production, the technology, the constant 00:25:37.099 --> 00:25:39.660 searching. Maybe it wasn't just about art or 00:25:39.660 --> 00:25:41.680 innovation for its own sake. Maybe it was all 00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:43.960 part of that deeper search for that one minute 00:25:43.960 --> 00:25:46.299 of illumination. Could be. Maybe that pursuit 00:25:46.299 --> 00:25:49.259 of ultimate truth, spiritual or artistic, is 00:25:49.259 --> 00:25:51.799 what made him constantly push boundaries, sacrifice 00:25:51.799 --> 00:25:54.839 easy success, and become this true wizard, always 00:25:54.839 --> 00:25:56.759 chasing the next unknown, seeking that elusive 00:25:56.759 --> 00:25:57.960 answer, something to think about.