WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.020 Welcome back to the Deep Dive. We're the place 00:00:02.020 --> 00:00:05.400 where we don't just skim the surface of sources. 00:00:05.559 --> 00:00:07.280 We really get into it, take a whole stack of 00:00:07.280 --> 00:00:09.140 research, and pull out the core truths for you. 00:00:09.220 --> 00:00:11.640 And, you know, the surprising facts, the deeper 00:00:11.640 --> 00:00:14.359 context, basically everything you need to be 00:00:14.359 --> 00:00:17.679 properly informed. So today our focus is on someone 00:00:17.679 --> 00:00:20.039 many of you will know, or at least know of, Cassandra 00:00:20.039 --> 00:00:23.039 Brené Brown, a real modern academic phenomenon. 00:00:23.440 --> 00:00:25.780 Our mission for this Deep Dive, well, it's pretty 00:00:25.780 --> 00:00:27.620 ambitious actually. We want to synthesize her 00:00:27.620 --> 00:00:30.429 whole career path. trace it right from her roots 00:00:30.429 --> 00:00:34.189 in rigorous social work academia, define those 00:00:34.189 --> 00:00:36.530 core ideas everyone talks about, shame, vulnerability, 00:00:36.969 --> 00:00:39.770 courage, and really analyze how she pulled off 00:00:39.770 --> 00:00:42.829 this. frankly, almost impossible thing, translating 00:00:42.829 --> 00:00:45.530 really nuanced academic data into a massive global 00:00:45.530 --> 00:00:47.869 cultural movement. Just to set the stage for 00:00:47.869 --> 00:00:49.429 you, think about the sheer scale of her reach. 00:00:49.609 --> 00:00:51.429 I mean, she's not just a successful author. She's 00:00:51.429 --> 00:00:53.609 got six number one New York Times bestsellers 00:00:53.609 --> 00:00:56.590 under her belt. And that famous 2010 TEDx talk, 00:00:56.710 --> 00:00:58.590 it's consistently in the top five most viewed 00:00:58.590 --> 00:01:01.469 TED talks ever globally. Well, it's just a huge 00:01:01.469 --> 00:01:03.869 cultural footprint. And it's all built on social 00:01:03.869 --> 00:01:06.530 work principles. Exactly. And that translation 00:01:06.530 --> 00:01:09.030 piece, that's the really fascinating part, isn't 00:01:09.030 --> 00:01:11.450 it? That jump. from, well, maybe not the lab 00:01:11.450 --> 00:01:14.129 bench, but the interview room in her case, right 00:01:14.129 --> 00:01:16.109 onto the global stage. That's what we need to 00:01:16.109 --> 00:01:18.170 unpack. I mean, you're looking at a tenured research 00:01:18.170 --> 00:01:21.349 professor, someone who took concepts that, let's 00:01:21.349 --> 00:01:25.209 be honest, are often seen as a bit soft or maybe 00:01:25.209 --> 00:01:27.750 too subjective. Yeah, like shame, empathy. Right. 00:01:27.790 --> 00:01:30.269 The mechanics of shame, what empathy actually 00:01:30.269 --> 00:01:33.180 requires. And she made them essential. Like really 00:01:33.180 --> 00:01:35.659 applicable knowledge for literally everyone. 00:01:36.319 --> 00:01:39.379 CEOs, parents, you name it. She really sits at 00:01:39.379 --> 00:01:41.439 this unique intersection. You know, academic 00:01:41.439 --> 00:01:44.040 rigor meets accessible emotional intelligence. 00:01:44.519 --> 00:01:45.939 And we're going to show you the research that 00:01:45.939 --> 00:01:48.439 makes her platform so authoritative. OK, so let's 00:01:48.439 --> 00:01:50.439 definitely unpack that. Because, you know, before 00:01:50.439 --> 00:01:52.519 all the bestsellers and the Spotify deals and 00:01:52.519 --> 00:01:54.700 the Netflix specials, this was a career built 00:01:54.700 --> 00:01:56.819 in the trenches, you could say. The often unseen 00:01:56.819 --> 00:01:59.780 work of professional social science. So we really 00:01:59.780 --> 00:02:02.019 have to start by establishing her deep roots. 00:02:02.090 --> 00:02:04.569 It's these like unshakable foundations in academia 00:02:04.569 --> 00:02:07.430 and social work methodology. So Brene Brown, 00:02:07.629 --> 00:02:10.770 born Cassandra Brown, eldest of four kids, San 00:02:10.770 --> 00:02:13.949 Antonio, Texas. Family moved to New Orleans later, 00:02:14.110 --> 00:02:16.870 but it's her education all in Texas that really 00:02:16.870 --> 00:02:18.949 dictates the lens she uses for her research. 00:02:19.330 --> 00:02:21.669 That's key, right? Absolutely key. She's not 00:02:21.669 --> 00:02:23.770 coming at this from, say, clinical psychology 00:02:23.770 --> 00:02:26.430 primarily, or she's not just a motivational speaker 00:02:26.430 --> 00:02:29.629 who's sort of found research later. No, her core 00:02:29.629 --> 00:02:32.110 identity is as a social work researcher. Right. 00:02:32.210 --> 00:02:34.889 So walk us through that track. Okay. She got 00:02:34.889 --> 00:02:37.490 her Bachelor of Social Work, the BSW, from UT 00:02:37.490 --> 00:02:41.250 Austin in 1995. Then pretty quickly after her 00:02:41.250 --> 00:02:44.389 Master of Social Work, MSW in 96. And then she 00:02:44.389 --> 00:02:46.770 capped it off with her PhD, Doctor of Philosophy 00:02:46.770 --> 00:02:48.710 in Social Work from the University of Houston 00:02:48.710 --> 00:02:50.889 Graduate School of Social Work. That was 2002. 00:02:51.439 --> 00:02:54.060 And why is that PhD specifically in social work 00:02:54.060 --> 00:02:56.120 so important here? You touched on it, but let's 00:02:56.120 --> 00:02:57.840 underline that. Yeah, it's a really critical 00:02:57.840 --> 00:03:00.300 distinction. Clinical psychology very often focuses 00:03:00.300 --> 00:03:02.800 on the individual. Diagnosis, treatment, that 00:03:02.800 --> 00:03:04.979 kind of thing. Social work, especially PhD level 00:03:04.979 --> 00:03:08.259 research, it inherently looks at systems, environments, 00:03:08.620 --> 00:03:11.780 community well -being. Ah, okay. The bigger picture. 00:03:12.099 --> 00:03:14.780 Exactly. Brown's work is fundamentally about 00:03:14.780 --> 00:03:18.500 connection. Right. Belonging. And critically, 00:03:18.680 --> 00:03:21.819 how shame stops us from integrating into a group, 00:03:21.840 --> 00:03:26.340 into a system. That is classic social work perspective, 00:03:26.500 --> 00:03:28.259 looking at the environment, the relational dynamics, 00:03:28.439 --> 00:03:30.319 not just what's going on inside one person's 00:03:30.319 --> 00:03:32.580 head. That makes sense. And you can even see 00:03:32.580 --> 00:03:34.780 that focus way back in her dissertation title, 00:03:34.879 --> 00:03:37.719 can't you? You absolutely can. It was Accompagnar, 00:03:37.860 --> 00:03:40.460 a grounded theory of developing, maintaining 00:03:40.460 --> 00:03:42.840 and assessing relevance in professional helping 00:03:42.840 --> 00:03:46.319 from 2002. A compañer, that word stands out. 00:03:46.379 --> 00:03:48.860 It really does. It's Spanish, meaning to accompany 00:03:48.860 --> 00:03:52.780 or to walk with. And just that word choice tells 00:03:52.780 --> 00:03:55.360 you so much about her early focus. It's about 00:03:55.360 --> 00:03:57.639 the professional helper needing presence, needing 00:03:57.639 --> 00:03:59.939 relational depth. You can see the seed right 00:03:59.939 --> 00:04:02.479 there for all her later work on empathy and connection. 00:04:02.680 --> 00:04:04.919 It started with how professionals show up for 00:04:04.919 --> 00:04:07.389 others. And the methodology she used, grounded 00:04:07.389 --> 00:04:09.650 theory, that sounds important, but maybe a bit 00:04:09.650 --> 00:04:11.889 academic. Can you break that down for us? What 00:04:11.889 --> 00:04:13.830 does it mean in practice, especially for studying 00:04:13.830 --> 00:04:16.129 stuff like shame? Yeah, it's crucial to how she 00:04:16.129 --> 00:04:20.410 built her ideas. Grounded theory is, well, it's 00:04:20.410 --> 00:04:24.269 an inductive approach. Qualitative. So unlike 00:04:24.269 --> 00:04:26.990 quantitative research, where you start with a 00:04:26.990 --> 00:04:29.389 theory, a hypothesis, and then you test it with 00:04:29.389 --> 00:04:31.310 numbers. Right, like a drug trial or something. 00:04:31.550 --> 00:04:33.889 Exactly. With grounded theory, you start with 00:04:33.889 --> 00:04:36.649 the data itself. Systematically collected data 00:04:36.649 --> 00:04:39.029 interviews are huge for her, conversations, observations. 00:04:39.509 --> 00:04:41.730 And you build the theory out of that data. You 00:04:41.730 --> 00:04:43.750 don't go in with a structure you expect to find. 00:04:43.910 --> 00:04:46.769 The structure emerges from people's actual stories, 00:04:46.910 --> 00:04:49.129 their lived experiences. Okay, so the theory 00:04:49.129 --> 00:04:51.709 is grounded in the data. Precisely. And you can 00:04:51.709 --> 00:04:54.189 see why that was perfect for studying shame and 00:04:54.189 --> 00:04:57.029 vulnerability, right? Yeah. Because you can't 00:04:57.029 --> 00:04:59.329 just measure shame on a scale of 1 to 10 easily. 00:04:59.670 --> 00:05:02.199 You really can't. How embarrassed is someone? 00:05:02.339 --> 00:05:04.500 How much shame do they feel? It's deeply subjective. 00:05:05.079 --> 00:05:07.860 So she had to collect just thousands of stories 00:05:07.860 --> 00:05:10.319 and then look for the patterns, the common threads, 00:05:10.560 --> 00:05:12.740 the shared ways people talked about these feelings. 00:05:13.079 --> 00:05:15.959 Her academic rigor, it comes from her ability 00:05:15.959 --> 00:05:18.800 to take this massive amount of qualitative data, 00:05:18.879 --> 00:05:22.079 stories, narratives, and synthesize it. Turn 00:05:22.079 --> 00:05:24.860 it into reliable concepts that actually define 00:05:24.860 --> 00:05:27.699 what courage looks like or how shame operates. 00:05:27.959 --> 00:05:30.019 And that's what allowed her to move from just 00:05:30.019 --> 00:05:32.680 theory to actual practical application later 00:05:32.680 --> 00:05:35.480 on. That's the bridge. That methodology gave 00:05:35.480 --> 00:05:37.639 her the confidence in her concepts. And it's 00:05:37.639 --> 00:05:39.399 not like she just did the research and then left 00:05:39.399 --> 00:05:41.540 academia behind. She's still very much connected, 00:05:41.699 --> 00:05:43.500 isn't she? Oh, absolutely. Deeply connected. 00:05:43.620 --> 00:05:46.000 She holds the Huffington Foundation's Brene Brown 00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:48.560 Endowed Chair at the University of Houston's 00:05:48.560 --> 00:05:50.720 Graduate College of Social Work. That sounds 00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:53.439 prestigious. It is. And it's not just a title. 00:05:53.500 --> 00:05:55.759 The Huffington Foundation put serious money behind 00:05:55.759 --> 00:05:58.639 it, like $2 million over four years, starting 00:05:58.639 --> 00:06:02.079 in 2016. The goal was specifically to ensure 00:06:02.079 --> 00:06:04.060 that research chair could keep guiding social 00:06:04.060 --> 00:06:07.040 work students in this exact methodology, grounded 00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:09.560 theory, and applying it directly to these tough, 00:06:09.600 --> 00:06:13.560 modern issues. Vulnerability, courage, shame, 00:06:13.779 --> 00:06:16.620 empathy. She's actively training the next generation 00:06:16.620 --> 00:06:18.860 in her field. That says a lot about her commitment 00:06:18.860 --> 00:06:21.680 and how her work is valued within academia itself. 00:06:22.139 --> 00:06:24.079 But what's also really interesting is how that 00:06:24.079 --> 00:06:26.740 academic influence stretches beyond social work 00:06:26.740 --> 00:06:29.300 now. She's also a visiting professor in management 00:06:29.300 --> 00:06:32.100 at UT Austin's McCombs School of Business. Yeah, 00:06:32.199 --> 00:06:34.060 and that McCombs appointment, that's the perfect 00:06:34.060 --> 00:06:35.779 illustration of the translation we talked about 00:06:35.779 --> 00:06:38.420 earlier. It shows how she successfully took these 00:06:38.420 --> 00:06:41.240 core ideas about human behavior rooted in relational 00:06:41.240 --> 00:06:43.600 health, remember, and applied them directly to 00:06:43.600 --> 00:06:46.540 the world of business, organizations, leadership. 00:06:47.019 --> 00:06:49.079 So what's the link? Well, think about internal 00:06:49.079 --> 00:06:52.079 human stuff, like the fear of failure in a team 00:06:52.079 --> 00:06:55.120 or the need for psychological safety to speak 00:06:55.120 --> 00:06:58.420 up. She showed exactly how those internal dynamics 00:06:58.420 --> 00:07:00.779 play out in external professional structures, 00:07:00.980 --> 00:07:04.439 in meetings, in project outcomes, in innovation 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:08.100 or lack thereof. Ah, OK. So the internal impacts 00:07:08.100 --> 00:07:11.560 the external structures. Directly. Her academic 00:07:11.560 --> 00:07:13.899 rigor, that foundation in social work research, 00:07:14.139 --> 00:07:16.420 is what gives her the credibility, the authority. 00:07:16.860 --> 00:07:19.000 To walk into a Fortune 100 company and say, look, 00:07:19.139 --> 00:07:21.240 here's why your teams might be struggling to 00:07:21.240 --> 00:07:23.740 innovate. It comes down to vulnerability and 00:07:23.740 --> 00:07:26.600 shame. OK, so we've got the foundation, the deep 00:07:26.600 --> 00:07:29.620 roots in social work research, the grounded theory 00:07:29.620 --> 00:07:32.300 method. Now let's get into the meat of it, the 00:07:32.300 --> 00:07:34.980 actual concept she's famous for. We hear these 00:07:34.980 --> 00:07:37.259 words all the time now, vulnerability, shame, 00:07:37.540 --> 00:07:40.100 courage. But what do they actually mean based 00:07:40.100 --> 00:07:42.600 on her like. two decades of research. Let's define 00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:44.980 the terms as she uses them. Her entire body of 00:07:44.980 --> 00:07:47.100 work, you can pretty much boil it down to exploring 00:07:47.100 --> 00:07:49.500 what she calls the big five research topics. 00:07:49.699 --> 00:07:53.379 The big five. Yeah. Courage, vulnerability, shame, 00:07:53.680 --> 00:07:56.860 empathy, and leadership. And she uses these five 00:07:56.860 --> 00:07:59.459 pillars, essentially, to figure out how human 00:07:59.459 --> 00:08:02.360 connection works. And maybe more importantly, 00:08:02.620 --> 00:08:05.300 why it so often breaks down in our personal lives, 00:08:05.459 --> 00:08:08.079 our work lives everywhere. Okay. So where do 00:08:08.079 --> 00:08:10.180 we start? Which one is the key? You absolutely 00:08:10.180 --> 00:08:11.879 have to start with shame. That's the linchpin 00:08:11.879 --> 00:08:13.540 for understanding almost everything else she 00:08:13.540 --> 00:08:15.699 talks about. All right. So how does Brene Brown 00:08:15.699 --> 00:08:19.800 define shame? She defines shame as this intensely 00:08:19.800 --> 00:08:23.160 painful feeling, or it could be an experience, 00:08:23.379 --> 00:08:26.439 of believing, docked down, that we are flawed. 00:08:26.779 --> 00:08:29.420 And because we're flawed, we're therefore unworthy 00:08:29.420 --> 00:08:32.740 of love and belonging. Wow. That's heavy. Unworthy 00:08:32.740 --> 00:08:34.700 of love and belonging. It is. It's the fear, 00:08:34.820 --> 00:08:37.080 basically, that if people really knew us... The 00:08:37.080 --> 00:08:39.379 real messy us, they reject us. They turn away. 00:08:39.620 --> 00:08:42.039 Okay. And she makes a big deal about differentiating 00:08:42.039 --> 00:08:45.019 shame from guilt. A huge deal. And this is critical 00:08:45.019 --> 00:08:47.539 for you to graft. Guilt, she argues, is actually 00:08:47.539 --> 00:08:49.620 constructive. It's feeling bad about something 00:08:49.620 --> 00:08:51.879 you did. The focus is on the behavior. I did 00:08:51.879 --> 00:08:53.679 a bad thing. Right, like, oops, I broke that 00:08:53.679 --> 00:08:56.200 vase. Exactly. Whereas shame is destructive. 00:08:56.720 --> 00:08:59.580 It's feeling bad about who you are. The focus 00:08:59.580 --> 00:09:02.679 is on the self. I am a bad person. I am a vase 00:09:02.679 --> 00:09:06.559 breaker. Inherently clumsy and awful. Ah. I see 00:09:06.559 --> 00:09:09.480 the difference. Behavior versus self. Precisely. 00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:12.340 And her research shows this distinction has massive 00:09:12.340 --> 00:09:15.240 consequences. Guilt, if you handle it right, 00:09:15.379 --> 00:09:18.440 can actually motivate you to change, to apologize, 00:09:18.720 --> 00:09:21.639 to make amends. It can connect you back. Shame, 00:09:21.659 --> 00:09:23.559 on the other hand, it does the opposite. It drives 00:09:23.559 --> 00:09:26.559 hiding, blaming others, avoidance. It corrodes 00:09:26.559 --> 00:09:28.519 connection. It makes you want to disappear. That 00:09:28.519 --> 00:09:31.519 difference, I did versus I am, that feels really 00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:34.940 profound. Okay, so if shame is this huge barrier, 00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:38.220 this corrosive thing, then her next big concept, 00:09:38.379 --> 00:09:40.779 vulnerability, must be the way through it. That's 00:09:40.779 --> 00:09:42.940 exactly how she frames it. Vulnerability is the 00:09:42.940 --> 00:09:44.919 antidote, but it's also the prerequisite. She 00:09:44.919 --> 00:09:47.659 defines vulnerability as uncertainty, risk, and 00:09:47.659 --> 00:09:50.000 emotional exposure. Uncertainty, risk, emotional 00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:52.080 exposure. Yeah. It's not about winning or losing. 00:09:52.220 --> 00:09:54.259 It's simply about having the courage to show 00:09:54.259 --> 00:09:56.039 up and be seen even when you have absolutely 00:09:56.039 --> 00:09:58.519 no control over the outcome. So like asking for 00:09:58.519 --> 00:10:01.519 that raise or saying, I love you first. Perfect 00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:04.330 examples. It's putting your authentic self out 00:10:04.330 --> 00:10:06.750 there, knowing full well you might get hurt. 00:10:06.909 --> 00:10:10.190 You might be judged. You might be rejected. It 00:10:10.190 --> 00:10:13.730 feels risky because it is risky. But she argues 00:10:13.730 --> 00:10:16.230 it's not weakness. Emphatically not weakness. 00:10:16.629 --> 00:10:19.730 Her research, story after story, demonstrates 00:10:19.730 --> 00:10:22.570 that vulnerability is actually our most accurate 00:10:22.570 --> 00:10:25.690 measure of courage. It takes guts to be vulnerable. 00:10:26.190 --> 00:10:29.590 OK, so vulnerability equals courage, which links 00:10:29.590 --> 00:10:32.370 directly to that other big word, courage, often 00:10:32.370 --> 00:10:34.710 summed up by that book title, Daring Greatly. 00:10:34.809 --> 00:10:37.789 Precisely. Courage is defined by taking action 00:10:37.789 --> 00:10:40.490 even when you're scared, even when things are 00:10:40.490 --> 00:10:42.909 uncertain. It's about accepting that vulnerability 00:10:42.909 --> 00:10:45.210 isn't something to be avoided, but it's actually 00:10:45.210 --> 00:10:47.590 necessary if you want to grow or connect. Right. 00:10:47.629 --> 00:10:49.570 You have to risk it. You have to risk it. And 00:10:49.570 --> 00:10:52.330 all of this, showing up vulnerably, having courage, 00:10:52.529 --> 00:10:54.909 it ultimately leads to and requires empathy. 00:10:55.340 --> 00:10:57.519 Okay, empathy. How does that fit in? Empathy 00:10:57.519 --> 00:11:00.019 is the skill of seeing the world through someone 00:11:00.019 --> 00:11:03.120 else's eyes. Trying to understand their feelings, 00:11:03.340 --> 00:11:05.779 reserving judgment, and then communicating that 00:11:05.779 --> 00:11:07.740 understanding back to them. So it's not sympathy, 00:11:07.879 --> 00:11:10.299 like feeling sorry for them. No, it's feeling 00:11:10.299 --> 00:11:14.500 with them. And empathy, she argues, is the ultimate 00:11:14.500 --> 00:11:16.820 antidote to shame. Because when someone responds 00:11:16.820 --> 00:11:19.379 to your vulnerability with empathy, the message 00:11:19.379 --> 00:11:21.700 is clear. You are not alone in this feeling. 00:11:21.840 --> 00:11:25.090 I get it. I've been there too. That dissolves 00:11:25.090 --> 00:11:28.409 shame. Wow. Okay, so shame isolates, vulnerability 00:11:28.409 --> 00:11:31.289 connects through courage, and empathy heals. 00:11:31.549 --> 00:11:34.090 You've got it. That's the core dynamic she identified. 00:11:34.350 --> 00:11:36.450 And if we zoom out, connect this to the bigger 00:11:36.450 --> 00:11:39.230 picture, her work feels like a direct response 00:11:39.230 --> 00:11:42.370 to our culture's obsession with perfection, doesn't 00:11:42.370 --> 00:11:44.879 it? Absolutely. It's trying to bridge that huge, 00:11:44.899 --> 00:11:47.559 painful gap we all feel sometimes. The gap between 00:11:47.559 --> 00:11:50.539 who we actually are. The flawed, complex, messy 00:11:50.539 --> 00:11:53.159 humans and who we feel we're supposed to be based 00:11:53.159 --> 00:11:55.340 on all the external messages and maybe our own 00:11:55.340 --> 00:11:57.000 internal critics. Yeah, that pressure is real. 00:11:57.159 --> 00:11:59.529 Totally. And her core finding, the thing that 00:11:59.529 --> 00:12:01.789 echoes through every book, every talk, is that 00:12:01.789 --> 00:12:03.669 you cannot have meaningful connection or love 00:12:03.669 --> 00:12:06.970 or joy or even effective leadership without engaging 00:12:06.970 --> 00:12:09.570 with these difficult concepts. You have to be 00:12:09.570 --> 00:12:12.230 willing to be vulnerable, manage shame, practice 00:12:12.230 --> 00:12:14.870 empathy, and find courage. There's no shortcut. 00:12:15.230 --> 00:12:18.269 Now, something that adds, I think, a lot of weight 00:12:18.269 --> 00:12:21.090 and authenticity to her research is her own personal 00:12:21.090 --> 00:12:24.710 story. She's incredibly open about the fact that 00:12:24.710 --> 00:12:27.149 this isn't just academic theory for her. That's 00:12:27.149 --> 00:12:29.759 right. And you really can't separate her research 00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:32.720 path from her personal journey. They're completely 00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:35.159 intertwined. She's spoken very candidly, as you 00:12:35.159 --> 00:12:37.940 know, about her own history with addiction. Specifically, 00:12:38.120 --> 00:12:41.740 struggles with alcohol, smoking, emotional eating. 00:12:42.400 --> 00:12:45.299 And also this intense need for control. Right. 00:12:45.460 --> 00:12:48.059 Control is a form of addiction almost. Exactly. 00:12:48.059 --> 00:12:50.039 And that personal experience, wrestling with 00:12:50.039 --> 00:12:52.179 dependencies, wrestling with that drive for control, 00:12:52.320 --> 00:12:55.519 it provides the lived context. It fuels the questions 00:12:55.519 --> 00:12:57.980 in her later really rigorous work on resilience 00:12:57.980 --> 00:13:00.779 and the importance of imperfection. She wasn't 00:13:00.779 --> 00:13:02.820 just studying other people's shame. And she points 00:13:02.820 --> 00:13:05.100 to a very specific date, a turning point related 00:13:05.100 --> 00:13:07.580 to this, doesn't she? She does. She often mentions 00:13:07.580 --> 00:13:11.740 May 12th, 1996. That's the date she recalls stopping 00:13:11.740 --> 00:13:14.340 drinking and smoking. And the timing of that 00:13:14.340 --> 00:13:16.320 is significant, too. Incredibly significant. 00:13:16.539 --> 00:13:18.600 It was literally the day after she graduated 00:13:18.600 --> 00:13:21.120 from her master's program in social work. Wow. 00:13:22.169 --> 00:13:24.330 Talk about a new beginning. Right. It's symbolic. 00:13:24.509 --> 00:13:26.830 She's entering this new phase, becoming a professional 00:13:26.830 --> 00:13:30.129 helper. And she makes this radical decision to 00:13:30.129 --> 00:13:32.429 confront her own ways of numbing and controlling. 00:13:32.769 --> 00:13:34.850 She's even said that she initially started researching 00:13:34.850 --> 00:13:37.330 shame because she wanted to understand what she 00:13:37.330 --> 00:13:39.669 herself was dealing with. And that led her to 00:13:39.669 --> 00:13:41.830 the huge realization that it wasn't just her. 00:13:42.029 --> 00:13:45.029 It was this universal human experience. So that 00:13:45.029 --> 00:13:47.350 decision to embrace her own vulnerabilities, 00:13:47.470 --> 00:13:50.169 step away from numbing, that wasn't just personal 00:13:50.169 --> 00:13:53.759 growth. informed the research. Absolutely. Gave 00:13:53.759 --> 00:13:56.259 her not just the academic lens of grounded theory, 00:13:56.440 --> 00:13:59.200 but this deep personal stake in understanding 00:13:59.200 --> 00:14:02.120 how people recover, how we reconnect after falling 00:14:02.120 --> 00:14:05.240 apart, how we find the courage to, as she says, 00:14:05.399 --> 00:14:08.700 dare greatly. It transforms the research, I think. 00:14:08.759 --> 00:14:10.740 It stops it from being just clinical observation 00:14:10.740 --> 00:14:13.940 and turns it into this deeply empathetic, actionable 00:14:13.940 --> 00:14:15.720 framework for living because she's lived it. 00:14:15.860 --> 00:14:18.860 Okay. So doing the rigorous research, grounding 00:14:18.860 --> 00:14:20.500 it in personal experience, that's one thing. 00:14:21.129 --> 00:14:24.370 But becoming a household name, a global phenomenon, 00:14:24.590 --> 00:14:26.690 that's a whole different level. So here's where 00:14:26.690 --> 00:14:29.830 it gets really interesting for me. How does this 00:14:29.830 --> 00:14:32.529 deep social work research, rooted in complex 00:14:32.529 --> 00:14:35.490 ideas like grounded theory and personal recovery, 00:14:35.850 --> 00:14:39.590 how does that suddenly explode into massive cultural 00:14:39.590 --> 00:14:42.429 recognition? Yeah, the trajectory is pretty wild, 00:14:42.490 --> 00:14:45.429 isn't it? The major catalyst, the inflection 00:14:45.429 --> 00:14:49.149 point, was undoubtedly that 2010 Houston TEDx 00:14:49.149 --> 00:14:51.809 talk. The one called The Power of Vulnerability. 00:14:51.970 --> 00:14:54.070 Right, the famous one. That's the one. That single 00:14:54.070 --> 00:14:56.529 talk, basically overnight, shifted her work, 00:14:56.629 --> 00:14:58.690 as people have said, from relative obscurity 00:14:58.690 --> 00:15:01.610 in academia into the mainstream spotlight. What 00:15:01.610 --> 00:15:03.389 was it about that talk? What did she do differently? 00:15:03.730 --> 00:15:05.870 Well, content -wise, it summarized about a decade 00:15:05.870 --> 00:15:08.169 of her research findings, particularly around 00:15:08.169 --> 00:15:10.049 what separated people who felt a strong sense 00:15:10.049 --> 00:15:11.970 of worthiness, she calls them the wholehearted, 00:15:12.149 --> 00:15:14.970 from those who really struggled. And the key 00:15:14.970 --> 00:15:16.769 difference she found, it was the willingness 00:15:16.769 --> 00:15:19.179 to be vulnerable. Okay, so the core... message 00:15:19.179 --> 00:15:22.340 was there. The core message was powerful, but 00:15:22.340 --> 00:15:25.860 the delivery, that was the magic, I think. As 00:15:25.860 --> 00:15:27.659 Reggie Ugoo pointed out in the New York Times, 00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:30.899 she framed these complex, potentially heavy discoveries 00:15:30.899 --> 00:15:34.659 in this incredibly self -deprecating and personal 00:15:34.659 --> 00:15:37.759 way. She used humor, stories about her own struggles, 00:15:37.840 --> 00:15:40.279 her own breakdown, as she called it. She made 00:15:40.279 --> 00:15:44.419 vulnerability feel, well, relatable, less terrifying, 00:15:44.600 --> 00:15:47.299 more human. And it just resonated. It resonated 00:15:47.299 --> 00:15:49.980 massively. The talk went viral in a way that, 00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:53.100 frankly, few academic talks ever do. It prompted 00:15:53.100 --> 00:15:55.059 that New York Times piece declaring the event 00:15:55.059 --> 00:15:59.039 basically unveiled a new star of social psychology. 00:15:59.100 --> 00:16:01.460 A new star of social psychology. That's quite 00:16:01.460 --> 00:16:03.659 a label. Isn't it? And that rapid rise, I think 00:16:03.659 --> 00:16:05.820 it really speaks to this enormous, maybe previously 00:16:05.820 --> 00:16:08.360 unarticulated hunger in the culture, a hunger 00:16:08.360 --> 00:16:11.929 for permission to just. drop the shield, to stop 00:16:11.929 --> 00:16:13.990 pretending to be perfect. Yeah, like she gave 00:16:13.990 --> 00:16:16.250 voice to something people were feeling but couldn't 00:16:16.250 --> 00:16:18.490 name. Exactly. And she didn't just rest on that 00:16:18.490 --> 00:16:20.350 one talk, did she? She built on it pretty quickly. 00:16:20.509 --> 00:16:22.450 Right. There was another official TED Talk in 00:16:22.450 --> 00:16:26.070 2012, listening to shame. Yes. And that one was 00:16:26.070 --> 00:16:28.899 crucial, too. Because after the first talk went 00:16:28.899 --> 00:16:31.720 huge, there was inevitably some backlash or at 00:16:31.720 --> 00:16:34.200 least a lot of fear. People were saying, OK, 00:16:34.379 --> 00:16:36.539 vulnerability sounds nice, but what about the 00:16:36.539 --> 00:16:39.100 shame? What about that paralyzing fear that stops 00:16:39.100 --> 00:16:41.460 us? Right. The vulnerability hangover, she sometimes 00:16:41.460 --> 00:16:43.799 calls it. Exactly. So the second talk directly 00:16:43.799 --> 00:16:46.340 addressed that. She detailed the connection between 00:16:46.340 --> 00:16:49.500 shame and vulnerability using her own experience 00:16:49.500 --> 00:16:51.960 of being thrust into the spotlight by the first 00:16:51.960 --> 00:16:55.009 talk's fame as a case study. She explained how 00:16:55.009 --> 00:16:57.730 shame works, how it shows up, and how to listen 00:16:57.730 --> 00:17:00.090 to it without letting it shut you down. Okay, 00:17:00.129 --> 00:17:02.289 so power of vulnerability first, then listening 00:17:02.289 --> 00:17:04.769 to shame. But wasn't there another maybe less 00:17:04.769 --> 00:17:07.170 famous talk around that same time that's also 00:17:07.170 --> 00:17:10.049 really important? Yes. Good point. There was 00:17:10.049 --> 00:17:13.069 another 2010 talk, this one at TEDxKC, called 00:17:13.069 --> 00:17:15.650 The Price of Invulnerability. And this idea is 00:17:15.650 --> 00:17:17.670 absolutely foundational to her whole theory of 00:17:17.670 --> 00:17:19.769 wholehearted living. The Price of Invulnerability. 00:17:19.809 --> 00:17:21.940 What was the core message there? She explained 00:17:21.940 --> 00:17:25.000 that when we try to selectively numb difficult 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:28.319 feelings, you know, grief, fear, disappointment, 00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:32.180 vulnerability itself, we cannot help but also 00:17:32.180 --> 00:17:34.880 numb the positive emotions. Ah, you can't pick 00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:36.839 and choose which emotions to turn off. Exactly. 00:17:37.039 --> 00:17:39.839 She uses this great analogy. You can't selectively 00:17:39.839 --> 00:17:42.799 numb emotion. If you put up that shield to block 00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:45.779 the pain, you're simultaneously blocking your 00:17:45.779 --> 00:17:49.220 access to joy, to gratitude, to love, to belonging. 00:17:49.420 --> 00:17:53.410 Wow. That is, that's a really staggering insight 00:17:53.410 --> 00:17:55.589 when you think about it. Isn't it? The very act 00:17:55.589 --> 00:17:57.789 of protecting yourself from pain automatically 00:17:57.789 --> 00:17:59.910 walls you off from the very things you're probably 00:17:59.910 --> 00:18:02.890 seeking most deeply joy connection. The emotional 00:18:02.890 --> 00:18:06.529 logic is just immediate and kind of convicting. 00:18:06.630 --> 00:18:08.509 Yeah, it really makes you think. And it's that 00:18:08.509 --> 00:18:10.650 kind of clarity, that ability to distill these 00:18:10.650 --> 00:18:13.230 complex emotional truths that allowed her to 00:18:13.230 --> 00:18:15.970 move beyond just TED Talks into longer formats, 00:18:16.210 --> 00:18:19.109 which led eventually to the 2019 Netflix special, 00:18:19.230 --> 00:18:21.650 Brene Brown. The call to courage. Right, the 00:18:21.650 --> 00:18:23.589 Netflix special. That felt like another big leap 00:18:23.589 --> 00:18:26.230 in reach. It was huge. And it was a really interesting 00:18:26.230 --> 00:18:29.049 format, wasn't it? USA Today called it a mix 00:18:29.049 --> 00:18:31.630 of a motivational speech and stand -up comedy 00:18:31.630 --> 00:18:33.609 special. Yeah, that sounds about right. She's 00:18:33.609 --> 00:18:35.990 funny. She is. And that, again, highlights her 00:18:35.990 --> 00:18:38.410 unique skill, delivering really substantive, 00:18:38.609 --> 00:18:41.470 research -backed material, but with humor and 00:18:41.470 --> 00:18:44.210 approachability that keeps you engaged. And the 00:18:44.210 --> 00:18:46.730 core message of that special. It basically distilled 00:18:46.730 --> 00:18:49.410 everything down into a clear call to action. 00:18:49.769 --> 00:18:53.789 Choose courage over comfort. She directly equated 00:18:53.789 --> 00:18:57.160 being brave with being vulnerable. Arguing that 00:18:57.160 --> 00:19:00.059 vulnerability isn't the obstacle, it's the pathway 00:19:00.059 --> 00:19:02.339 that opens us up to love, joy, and belonging 00:19:02.339 --> 00:19:05.440 precisely because it forces us to show up authentically, 00:19:05.539 --> 00:19:08.480 be seen, and connect more deeply. It was like 00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:10.819 taking two decades of research and giving you 00:19:10.819 --> 00:19:13.099 a 90 -minute roadmap for emotional leadership 00:19:13.099 --> 00:19:15.440 in your own life. And that influence obviously 00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:17.359 didn't just stay on our screens at home. Her 00:19:17.359 --> 00:19:19.720 authority translated directly into the corporate 00:19:19.720 --> 00:19:22.519 world, into consulting. Oh, absolutely. That 00:19:22.519 --> 00:19:25.000 public platform gave her enormous credibility. 00:19:25.640 --> 00:19:28.039 She started regularly working as a keynote speaker, 00:19:28.200 --> 00:19:30.539 a consultant, doing private events for businesses. 00:19:30.819 --> 00:19:32.940 And she was taking these social work principles, 00:19:33.099 --> 00:19:35.960 these ideas about shame and vulnerability, and 00:19:35.960 --> 00:19:38.980 applying them directly to how organizations function. 00:19:39.460 --> 00:19:42.180 We know she's spoken at some major places, right? 00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:44.599 Yeah, big names. Companies like Google, Disney 00:19:44.599 --> 00:19:47.220 places, grappling with how to foster innovation, 00:19:47.579 --> 00:19:49.940 creativity, psychological safety, things that 00:19:49.940 --> 00:19:51.940 require people to feel safe enough to be vulnerable. 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:55.099 to take risks. And she's also connected with 00:19:55.099 --> 00:19:57.740 more sort of intellectual organizations like 00:19:57.740 --> 00:20:00.119 Elaine de Botton's School of Life, which shows 00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:02.220 how these principles of human connection really 00:20:02.220 --> 00:20:03.980 apply across all sorts of different landscapes, 00:20:04.160 --> 00:20:06.980 professional, personal, philosophical. So this 00:20:06.980 --> 00:20:09.099 ability to translate, I mean, we keep coming 00:20:09.099 --> 00:20:11.359 back to that word, but it's key, isn't it? Taking 00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:13.799 this complex, qualitative research and making 00:20:13.799 --> 00:20:16.539 it accessible, making it... digestible for a 00:20:16.539 --> 00:20:19.000 mass audience, that's arguably the biggest driver 00:20:19.000 --> 00:20:22.299 of her huge cultural success. It really is. She 00:20:22.299 --> 00:20:24.420 didn't just stay in academia or just do talks. 00:20:24.559 --> 00:20:27.700 She became this incredibly prolific author and 00:20:27.700 --> 00:20:31.240 producer, proving really that deep academic ideas 00:20:31.240 --> 00:20:34.259 can fuel mass market bestsellers if you do it 00:20:34.259 --> 00:20:36.190 right. And the numbers speak for themselves. 00:20:36.349 --> 00:20:41.250 As of 2021, she had six number one New York Times 00:20:41.250 --> 00:20:43.730 bestsellers. An incredible run. And if you look 00:20:43.730 --> 00:20:45.690 at them chronologically, you can almost track 00:20:45.690 --> 00:20:48.190 the evolution of her thinking, right? From the 00:20:48.190 --> 00:20:50.829 very personal to the more organizational. Absolutely. 00:20:50.910 --> 00:20:52.190 Let's walk through them quickly. It's useful. 00:20:52.309 --> 00:20:54.869 First was The Gifts of Imperfection in 2010. 00:20:55.269 --> 00:20:58.410 That really focused on wholehearted living, embracing 00:20:58.410 --> 00:21:01.250 imperfection not as a flaw, but as a source of 00:21:01.250 --> 00:21:03.569 strength and connection. Very personal focus. 00:21:03.809 --> 00:21:05.829 Right. That felt like the foundation. Then Daring 00:21:05.829 --> 00:21:08.490 Greatly in 2012. This is where the vulnerability 00:21:08.490 --> 00:21:10.650 concepts really took center stage and started 00:21:10.650 --> 00:21:12.750 shifting towards broader application. And that 00:21:12.750 --> 00:21:14.630 title, Daring Greatly, that's from somewhere 00:21:14.630 --> 00:21:16.650 specific, isn't it? Yes. It's important context. 00:21:16.690 --> 00:21:18.710 It's directly from Theodore Roosevelt's famous 00:21:18.710 --> 00:21:22.470 1910 Citizenship in a Republic speech. The man 00:21:22.470 --> 00:21:25.509 in the arena part. Given at the Sorbonne in Paris. 00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:28.279 Ah, so she's deliberately linking vulnerability 00:21:28.279 --> 00:21:31.859 to this bigger idea of civic courage, of showing 00:21:31.859 --> 00:21:34.339 up in the world. Exactly. It gives it a weight 00:21:34.339 --> 00:21:37.460 beyond just personal feelings. And Daring Greatly 00:21:37.460 --> 00:21:40.380 got a huge boost when she discussed it with Oprah 00:21:40.380 --> 00:21:45.000 Winfrey on Super Soul Sunday in March 2013. That 00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:47.319 really catapulted her into the mainstream. Okay. 00:21:47.400 --> 00:21:50.140 After Daring Greatly... Rising Strong came in 00:21:50.140 --> 00:21:52.640 2015. If Daring Greatly was about putting yourself 00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:55.109 out there, Rising Strong was about... What happens 00:21:55.109 --> 00:21:57.490 next? How do you get back up after you fall, 00:21:57.589 --> 00:21:59.650 after the vulnerability doesn't go well? The 00:21:59.650 --> 00:22:01.970 process of resilience. Exactly. She outlined 00:22:01.970 --> 00:22:05.029 this three -stage process. The rumble, which 00:22:05.029 --> 00:22:07.009 is like reckoning with your emotions and story. 00:22:07.170 --> 00:22:10.250 Yeah. The brave effort, owning that story. And 00:22:10.250 --> 00:22:13.049 the revolution, changing how you live based on 00:22:13.049 --> 00:22:14.950 what you learn. Then Braving the Wilderness in 00:22:14.950 --> 00:22:17.450 2017, that one felt a bit different. It did. 00:22:17.509 --> 00:22:20.059 It tackled belonging. Specifically, the difference 00:22:20.059 --> 00:22:22.720 between true belonging, which might mean standing 00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:25.339 alone sometimes, versus just fitting in, standing 00:22:25.339 --> 00:22:27.819 in your truth, even when it's uncomfortable or 00:22:27.819 --> 00:22:29.920 unpopular. And then she moved explicitly into 00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:33.500 leadership. Yep. Dare to Lead in 2018. This was 00:22:33.500 --> 00:22:35.859 her first book aimed squarely at the corporate 00:22:35.859 --> 00:22:38.119 and organizational world, taking all the previous 00:22:38.119 --> 00:22:40.980 research and saying, point blank, courage is 00:22:40.980 --> 00:22:43.960 a skill and it's the absolute prerequisite for 00:22:43.960 --> 00:22:46.690 effective. daring leadership. And finally, the 00:22:46.690 --> 00:22:49.170 most recent big one, Atlas of the Heart in 2021, 00:22:49.569 --> 00:22:51.910 which felt like a massive project. Oh, it was 00:22:51.910 --> 00:22:55.289 a huge undertaking. And arguably, it's the culmination 00:22:55.289 --> 00:22:57.869 in many ways of her work on translating research 00:22:57.869 --> 00:23:00.309 into practical tools. What was the specific goal 00:23:00.309 --> 00:23:02.650 with Atlas of the Heart? The stated goal was 00:23:02.650 --> 00:23:04.690 really clear. Help people expand their emotional 00:23:04.690 --> 00:23:07.509 vocabulary. Her argument is that most of us have 00:23:07.509 --> 00:23:09.450 shockingly limited language for our feelings. 00:23:09.650 --> 00:23:11.750 Like we just say, I feel bad or I'm stressed. 00:23:12.069 --> 00:23:14.640 Exactly. When maybe what we're really feeling 00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:18.339 is disappointment or grief or envy or shame or 00:23:18.339 --> 00:23:20.579 overwhelm, all very different things requiring 00:23:20.579 --> 00:23:23.819 different responses. So her team literally work 00:23:23.819 --> 00:23:26.940 to map out, define and differentiate 87 specific 00:23:26.940 --> 00:23:30.000 emotions and experiences that she believes underpin 00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:33.140 meaningful human connection. 87. That's incredibly 00:23:33.140 --> 00:23:35.980 detailed. It is. It moves beyond just understanding 00:23:35.980 --> 00:23:38.460 the big concepts like shame and vulnerability. 00:23:39.150 --> 00:23:42.130 and gives you the actual words, the precise language 00:23:42.130 --> 00:23:45.190 to articulate your inner world. She compares 00:23:45.190 --> 00:23:47.970 it to giving people a better map or GPS for their 00:23:47.970 --> 00:23:51.569 emotions. Her core belief here is that emotional 00:23:51.569 --> 00:23:53.849 literacy, being able to accurately name your 00:23:53.849 --> 00:23:56.690 feelings, is fundamental. If you can't name it, 00:23:56.730 --> 00:23:59.130 you can't really understand it or manage it effectively. 00:23:59.490 --> 00:24:01.609 And knowing the names helps you realize you're 00:24:01.609 --> 00:24:03.769 not alone in feeling that way? That's a huge 00:24:03.769 --> 00:24:07.130 part of it, too. The book provides the map. but 00:24:07.130 --> 00:24:09.470 also the reassurance that these complex feelings 00:24:09.470 --> 00:24:11.910 are part of this shared human experience. Now, 00:24:11.990 --> 00:24:14.410 beyond her own massive bestsellers, she's also 00:24:14.410 --> 00:24:16.250 been involved in collaborations, hasn't she? 00:24:16.509 --> 00:24:19.049 Applying her work in different contexts. Yes, 00:24:19.049 --> 00:24:20.970 and this is really important for seeing how the 00:24:20.970 --> 00:24:22.930 social work perspective, looking at systems and 00:24:22.930 --> 00:24:26.200 specific communities, remains central. She contributed 00:24:26.200 --> 00:24:28.599 advice to Tim Ferriss' book Tools of Titans, 00:24:28.819 --> 00:24:31.200 which is interesting. But far more significant, 00:24:31.240 --> 00:24:34.220 I think, was her co -creating the anthology You 00:24:34.220 --> 00:24:36.559 Are Your Best Thing. Yes, the one with Tarana 00:24:36.559 --> 00:24:39.500 Burke. Exactly. Tarana Burke, the incredible 00:24:39.500 --> 00:24:42.059 activist who started the Me Too movement. They 00:24:42.059 --> 00:24:45.640 co -edited this anthology, subtitled Vulnerability, 00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:47.700 Shame, Resilience, and the Black Experience. 00:24:48.200 --> 00:24:50.859 That sounds incredibly powerful. It is, and it 00:24:50.859 --> 00:24:53.019 really showcases Brene's commitment to applying 00:24:53.019 --> 00:24:55.279 her theories, not just generally, but to specific, 00:24:55.559 --> 00:24:58.140 profound societal issues and lived realities. 00:24:58.640 --> 00:25:01.339 The book features essays by various black writers, 00:25:01.480 --> 00:25:03.839 thinkers, artists, talking about the trauma of 00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:06.180 white supremacy, the unique challenges of navigating 00:25:06.180 --> 00:25:09.000 white spaces, but also the deep experiences of 00:25:09.000 --> 00:25:11.799 black love, black joy, black life. It takes her 00:25:11.799 --> 00:25:13.680 concepts like vulnerability and shame resilience 00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:16.559 and grounds them in the concrete intersectional 00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:18.819 reality of systemic oppression and the specific 00:25:18.819 --> 00:25:20.920 ways resilience manifests within marginalized 00:25:20.920 --> 00:25:23.400 communities. It shows the concepts aren't just 00:25:23.400 --> 00:25:26.140 abstract. That's vital work. And then, as if 00:25:26.140 --> 00:25:28.000 books and talks weren't enough, she moved on. 00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:30.400 into podcasting in a big way. Right? She embraced 00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:32.920 the audio medium too, struck an exclusive deal 00:25:32.920 --> 00:25:36.059 with Spotify back in 2020 to host two major podcasts, 00:25:36.460 --> 00:25:39.470 Unlocking Us and Dare to Lead. Let's talk about 00:25:39.470 --> 00:25:42.069 Unlocking Us. That format seems perfectly suited 00:25:42.069 --> 00:25:45.130 to her style. It really is. It blends solo episodes 00:25:45.130 --> 00:25:47.670 where she'll share personal stories, break down 00:25:47.670 --> 00:25:50.190 research findings, connect dots between different 00:25:50.190 --> 00:25:52.730 social science ideas with these really deep, 00:25:52.809 --> 00:25:55.130 long -form interviews. And the guest list is 00:25:55.130 --> 00:25:57.910 impressive. Incredibly diverse. You've got grief 00:25:57.910 --> 00:26:00.829 experts like David Kessler, huge musicians like 00:26:00.829 --> 00:26:03.390 Alicia Keys, fellow writers like Glennon Doyle, 00:26:03.490 --> 00:26:05.809 and of course her collaborator Tarana Burke has 00:26:05.809 --> 00:26:08.869 been on. It's a really rich mix. And people clearly 00:26:08.869 --> 00:26:11.109 responded to that format. They really did. It 00:26:11.109 --> 00:26:13.549 offered a space for the kind of nuance and extended 00:26:13.549 --> 00:26:16.130 conversation that you just can't get in a quick 00:26:16.130 --> 00:26:18.789 TV segment or even a single talk. Unlocking Us 00:26:18.789 --> 00:26:21.450 actually won the iHeartRadio Podcast Award for 00:26:21.450 --> 00:26:24.170 Best Advice or Inspirational Podcast in 2021. 00:26:24.630 --> 00:26:27.569 Wow. Okay. So that just confirms how well her 00:26:27.569 --> 00:26:30.430 conversational yet research -backed style translates 00:26:30.430 --> 00:26:33.259 to audio. And she pops up as a guest elsewhere, 00:26:33.420 --> 00:26:35.119 too, like that detailed interview she did with 00:26:35.119 --> 00:26:37.559 Debbie Millman for the Storybound podcast premiere 00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:40.200 in 2022. And the visual media continues, too, 00:26:40.240 --> 00:26:42.660 doesn't it? Yep. Building on the Atlas of the 00:26:42.660 --> 00:26:45.160 Heart book, there was the five -part docuseries 00:26:45.160 --> 00:26:49.440 on HBO Max in 2022. Brene Brown, Atlas of the 00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:51.660 Heart, taking that emotional mapping and giving 00:26:51.660 --> 00:26:53.660 it visual life. Making it even more accessible. 00:26:54.369 --> 00:26:57.269 Exactly. And just for a bit of fun flavor, showing 00:26:57.269 --> 00:27:00.349 her, you know, cultural ubiquity now, she even 00:27:00.349 --> 00:27:03.069 appeared as herself in the Amy Poehler movie 00:27:03.069 --> 00:27:05.869 Wine Country. Huh. I remember that. So she's 00:27:05.869 --> 00:27:08.829 really everywhere. Books, TED, Netflix, podcasts, 00:27:09.190 --> 00:27:11.609 even movies. Pretty much across every contemporary 00:27:11.609 --> 00:27:14.349 media platform you can think of. So this naturally 00:27:14.349 --> 00:27:16.890 brings up a really important question. And it's 00:27:16.890 --> 00:27:18.569 a fair question, maybe even a critique sometimes 00:27:18.569 --> 00:27:21.390 leveled at popular academics. After all this 00:27:21.390 --> 00:27:23.410 research, all the writing, the speaking, how 00:27:23.410 --> 00:27:25.529 does Brene Brown's work actually get translated 00:27:25.529 --> 00:27:28.430 formally into practical, scalable application? 00:27:29.019 --> 00:27:31.680 especially for organizations, for leaders? How 00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:33.519 do you move from people feeling connected to 00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:36.339 her ideas to actual cultural change on the ground? 00:27:36.460 --> 00:27:38.119 Right. Beyond just reading the book or watching 00:27:38.119 --> 00:27:40.480 the special, is there a system? There is. The 00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:42.400 main vehicle for that formalized implementation 00:27:42.400 --> 00:27:45.400 is The Daring Way. Okay. The Daring Way. What 00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:47.579 is that exactly? It's her official professional 00:27:47.579 --> 00:27:50.039 training and certification program. It's basically 00:27:50.039 --> 00:27:52.420 a curriculum -based structure, and it's laser 00:27:52.420 --> 00:27:54.059 -focused on teaching professionals, therapists, 00:27:54.380 --> 00:27:56.799 coaches, educators, leaders, corporate trainers 00:27:56.799 --> 00:27:59.900 how to facilitate her work based on vulnerability, 00:28:00.220 --> 00:28:03.460 courage, shame, and empathy. So it's not just 00:28:03.460 --> 00:28:05.599 an informal workshop people attend. It's like 00:28:05.599 --> 00:28:08.519 a standardized training. Exactly. It's a certified 00:28:08.519 --> 00:28:11.640 curriculum designed very intentionally to maintain 00:28:11.640 --> 00:28:14.079 fidelity to your original qualitative research 00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:17.279 findings. It's about ensuring the concepts don't 00:28:17.279 --> 00:28:19.960 get watered down or misinterpreted. as they get 00:28:19.960 --> 00:28:21.559 rolled out. Does that make sense? So how would 00:28:21.559 --> 00:28:24.180 that curriculum take something like, say, vulnerability 00:28:24.180 --> 00:28:27.000 and make it a practical tool in a corporate setting? 00:28:27.140 --> 00:28:29.819 Because vulnerability can sound risky in business. 00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:32.500 That's a great question. The daring way translates 00:28:32.500 --> 00:28:35.180 vulnerability in a corporate context, primarily 00:28:35.180 --> 00:28:37.920 through the lens of trust. It defines vulnerability 00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:40.839 in leadership, not as, you know, oversharing 00:28:40.839 --> 00:28:43.400 personal drama, but as the willingness to do 00:28:43.400 --> 00:28:47.230 things like ask for help. Admit you made a mistake. 00:28:47.509 --> 00:28:50.230 Give honest but constructive feedback. Speak 00:28:50.230 --> 00:28:52.829 up with a new idea. Ah, actions that involve 00:28:52.829 --> 00:28:55.750 emotional risk in a professional setting. Precisely. 00:28:55.750 --> 00:28:58.650 Those actions carry risk, risk of looking incompetent, 00:28:58.670 --> 00:29:01.950 risk of conflict, risk of rejection. So the Daring 00:29:01.950 --> 00:29:04.210 Way curriculum teaches leaders specific behaviors 00:29:04.210 --> 00:29:06.970 and skills to build cultures where taking those 00:29:06.970 --> 00:29:09.250 kinds of risk is actually rewarded or at least 00:29:09.250 --> 00:29:12.650 feel safe rather than being punished. It uses 00:29:12.650 --> 00:29:15.799 vulnerability as a key indicator. a metric almost, 00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:18.599 for psychological safety and trust within teams. 00:29:18.779 --> 00:29:20.680 She has a whole framework for this called the 00:29:20.680 --> 00:29:23.519 anatomy of trust built around concepts like boundaries, 00:29:23.700 --> 00:29:26.400 reliability, accountability, et cetera. Braving 00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:28.980 is the acronym. OK, braving. That sounds very 00:29:28.980 --> 00:29:31.160 structured. So this formalized training, plus 00:29:31.160 --> 00:29:33.240 her ongoing roles at University of Houston and 00:29:33.240 --> 00:29:36.140 McCombs, that's basically her structure for defending 00:29:36.140 --> 00:29:38.539 the rigor behind the mass market appeal. I think 00:29:38.539 --> 00:29:40.819 it has to be, yeah. And it directly addresses 00:29:40.819 --> 00:29:42.920 that potential academic critique you sometimes 00:29:42.920 --> 00:29:46.059 hear. You know, whenever you take really nuanced 00:29:46.059 --> 00:29:49.299 qualitative research built on thousands of individual 00:29:49.299 --> 00:29:52.359 stories and you generalize it into broader advice 00:29:52.359 --> 00:29:54.880 or frameworks for the mass market, there's always 00:29:54.880 --> 00:29:57.799 a risk. A danger of flattening the complexity, 00:29:58.059 --> 00:30:00.500 oversimplifying things. Sure, turning it into 00:30:00.500 --> 00:30:03.539 sound bites. Exactly. But Brown seems very aware 00:30:03.539 --> 00:30:06.640 of this. She defends her approach by ensuring 00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:08.940 that the application through the daring way, 00:30:09.019 --> 00:30:12.200 through her consulting, stays firmly rooted in 00:30:12.200 --> 00:30:14.440 the specific findings from her grounded theory 00:30:14.440 --> 00:30:17.130 work. And the fact that she maintains those serious 00:30:17.130 --> 00:30:19.430 academic appointments, like the endowed chair, 00:30:19.630 --> 00:30:22.670 it shows that her peers within academia recognize 00:30:22.670 --> 00:30:25.849 her success in bridging that difficult gap between 00:30:25.849 --> 00:30:29.029 rigorous research and broad accessibility. They 00:30:29.029 --> 00:30:31.470 see the value. And she certainly received a lot 00:30:31.470 --> 00:30:33.390 of recognition for both sides of her work, the 00:30:33.390 --> 00:30:35.650 academic and the public influence. We should 00:30:35.650 --> 00:30:37.289 probably touch on some of those honors. Definitely. 00:30:37.390 --> 00:30:39.470 They paid a picture of her impact over time. 00:30:39.849 --> 00:30:43.329 Well, even back in 2009, locally, Houston Woman 00:30:43.329 --> 00:30:45.869 magazine voted her one of the city's most influential 00:30:45.869 --> 00:30:49.529 women. So the impact started close to home. And 00:30:49.529 --> 00:30:51.569 within the university itself, she's received 00:30:51.569 --> 00:30:54.289 multiple teaching awards, like the Graduate College 00:30:54.289 --> 00:30:57.349 of Social Work's Outstanding Faculty Award, which 00:30:57.349 --> 00:30:59.390 really highlights her commitment to the academic 00:30:59.390 --> 00:31:02.450 side, to mentoring students. Absolutely. It shows 00:31:02.450 --> 00:31:04.950 she's respected as an educator, not just a public 00:31:04.950 --> 00:31:07.670 figure. Yeah. And then that recognition clearly 00:31:07.670 --> 00:31:10.059 expanded nationally. especially on the literary 00:31:10.059 --> 00:31:12.900 front. More recently, Atlas of the Heart won 00:31:12.900 --> 00:31:15.460 that big Goodreads Choice Award for Best Nonfiction 00:31:15.460 --> 00:31:18.539 in 2022. Yeah, Goodreads is huge. That's voted 00:31:18.539 --> 00:31:20.660 on by readers, right? Millions of readers. Yeah. 00:31:20.740 --> 00:31:23.140 So that win really proves her influence spans 00:31:23.140 --> 00:31:25.279 all the way from those focused academic circles 00:31:25.279 --> 00:31:28.619 in Houston right out to broad, popular acclaim 00:31:28.619 --> 00:31:30.559 from the reading public. Okay, before we wrap 00:31:30.559 --> 00:31:32.720 things up, we always like to add just a few personal 00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:34.839 details. Helps to kind of ground the researcher, 00:31:34.920 --> 00:31:36.839 connect them to the work, you know. Sure. Well, 00:31:36.859 --> 00:31:39.059 we know she's married, has two children, and 00:31:39.059 --> 00:31:41.740 the family still lives in Houston, Texas. So 00:31:41.740 --> 00:31:44.579 she maintains that strong connection to her primary 00:31:44.579 --> 00:31:47.240 academic and research base. Keeps her grounded, 00:31:47.319 --> 00:31:50.180 maybe. Perhaps. And for anyone interested in 00:31:50.180 --> 00:31:53.680 her downtime, she apparently has some very specific 00:31:53.680 --> 00:31:56.400 sports team loyalties. Oh, yeah. Yeah, she's 00:31:56.400 --> 00:31:58.200 mentioned supporting Liverpool FC, the soccer 00:31:58.200 --> 00:32:01.220 team. Okay. And also the San Antonio Spurs in 00:32:01.220 --> 00:32:03.640 basketball and the Houston Astros in baseball. 00:32:03.960 --> 00:32:07.720 A true Texas sports fan, mostly. Seems like it. 00:32:08.250 --> 00:32:10.390 But these little details, they just help underscore 00:32:10.390 --> 00:32:12.930 the idea that her concept of wholeheartedness 00:32:12.930 --> 00:32:15.970 isn't just theory. It's integrated into a real 00:32:15.970 --> 00:32:18.609 everyday life with family and interests. And 00:32:18.609 --> 00:32:20.789 her personal journey also includes a pretty significant 00:32:20.789 --> 00:32:23.230 exploration of faith and belonging, which seems 00:32:23.230 --> 00:32:25.349 very relevant to her work. Absolutely relevant. 00:32:25.490 --> 00:32:27.910 She was baptized in the Episcopal Church, but 00:32:27.910 --> 00:32:30.589 raised Catholic. And she speaks very openly about 00:32:30.589 --> 00:32:32.210 leaving the Catholic Church for quite a long 00:32:32.210 --> 00:32:34.809 period. But then eventually she and her husband 00:32:34.809 --> 00:32:37.470 and kids found their way back to the Episcopal 00:32:37.470 --> 00:32:39.390 community about two decades later. That sounds 00:32:39.390 --> 00:32:43.230 like a journey. It does. And it mirrors in many 00:32:43.230 --> 00:32:46.029 ways the kind of complex long -term wrestling 00:32:46.029 --> 00:32:49.029 with big questions, belonging, identity, belief, 00:32:49.289 --> 00:32:51.849 community, that are absolutely central to her 00:32:51.849 --> 00:32:53.630 professional research. It shows she's continually 00:32:53.630 --> 00:32:56.369 living and practicing the vulnerability and the 00:32:56.369 --> 00:32:58.240 searching that she writes about. Hashtag hashtag 00:32:58.240 --> 00:33:01.420 outro. All right. So we've covered a lot of ground 00:33:01.420 --> 00:33:04.339 here. What does it all mean when you put it together? 00:33:04.880 --> 00:33:07.880 We've traced this incredible scope of Brene Brown's 00:33:07.880 --> 00:33:11.619 work right from that early Ph .D. thesis, Accompagnar, 00:33:11.700 --> 00:33:14.660 and her deep dive into grounded theory. Through 00:33:14.660 --> 00:33:17.079 the absolute phenomenon of the TED Talks that 00:33:17.079 --> 00:33:20.279 changed everything, the six number one bestsellers, 00:33:20.299 --> 00:33:23.480 all the way up to her current massive project 00:33:23.480 --> 00:33:25.920 of building this universal curriculum for emotional 00:33:25.920 --> 00:33:28.460 literacy with Atlas of the Heart. Yeah, and I 00:33:28.460 --> 00:33:29.940 think the central finding, the thing that really 00:33:29.940 --> 00:33:32.480 explains her monumental success, is how her work 00:33:32.480 --> 00:33:34.799 managed to provide language and maybe even more 00:33:34.799 --> 00:33:36.819 importantly normalization for these universal 00:33:36.819 --> 00:33:40.019 but often deeply hidden human experiences of 00:33:40.019 --> 00:33:42.200 shame and vulnerability. Giving people permission 00:33:42.200 --> 00:33:44.940 to talk about it. Exactly. By researching them 00:33:44.940 --> 00:33:47.500 so meticulously and then articulating them so 00:33:47.500 --> 00:33:50.079 clearly and relatably, she essentially created 00:33:50.079 --> 00:33:52.900 a pathway, a way for millions of people, leaders, 00:33:53.079 --> 00:33:55.440 parents, individuals, everyone to move through 00:33:55.440 --> 00:33:57.500 those difficult feelings instead of being stuck 00:33:57.500 --> 00:34:00.410 by them. And that pathway leads towards more 00:34:00.410 --> 00:34:03.289 genuine connection, a deeper sense of belonging, 00:34:03.529 --> 00:34:05.869 and ultimately more courageous and effective 00:34:05.869 --> 00:34:08.030 leadership. And the sheer time commitment is 00:34:08.030 --> 00:34:10.670 remarkable, too. Over 20 years focused on these 00:34:10.670 --> 00:34:12.710 really difficult topics. It shows incredible 00:34:12.710 --> 00:34:16.230 consistency and rigor. It's not a fad. It's a 00:34:16.230 --> 00:34:19.250 sustained, deep commitment to exploring the same 00:34:19.250 --> 00:34:21.369 core questions about what it means to be human 00:34:21.369 --> 00:34:25.530 together. And maybe here's a final... Provocative 00:34:25.530 --> 00:34:27.730 thought for you, the listener, to chew on next 00:34:27.730 --> 00:34:29.769 time you're thinking about this stuff. We know 00:34:29.769 --> 00:34:31.710 that her really early academic work back around 00:34:31.710 --> 00:34:34.369 2007 was crucial in establishing her shame resilience 00:34:34.369 --> 00:34:37.349 theory, how individuals survive and recover from 00:34:37.349 --> 00:34:39.050 shame. Right. Resilience. Now, fast forward. 00:34:39.210 --> 00:34:41.949 Her newest book, Strong Ground, is apparently 00:34:41.949 --> 00:34:45.170 scheduled for 2025. So you've got this almost 00:34:45.170 --> 00:34:48.210 20 year span from an academic theory focused 00:34:48.210 --> 00:34:51.000 on individual resilience. the ability to bounce 00:34:51.000 --> 00:34:54.900 back from shame, to this global platform focused 00:34:54.900 --> 00:34:57.539 increasingly on leadership, on guiding organizations 00:34:57.539 --> 00:35:00.420 and teams. Okay, so individual resilience to 00:35:00.420 --> 00:35:02.760 leading others. What's the provocative link? 00:35:03.059 --> 00:35:05.880 Well, consider this. How much is the ability 00:35:05.880 --> 00:35:08.539 to lead others effectively, especially in today's 00:35:08.539 --> 00:35:11.960 complex world, intrinsically dependent on a leader's 00:35:11.960 --> 00:35:15.079 own mastery of shame resilience? Is personal 00:35:15.079 --> 00:35:17.300 resilience not just helpful, but actually the 00:35:17.300 --> 00:35:19.539 absolute prerequisite for daring leadership? 00:35:20.079 --> 00:35:22.179 That relationship, personal resilience as the 00:35:22.179 --> 00:35:24.820 foundation for leading others courageously, that 00:35:24.820 --> 00:35:26.860 might be the next piece of this whole Brene Brown 00:35:26.860 --> 00:35:29.219 puzzle for you to really examine. That's a great 00:35:29.219 --> 00:35:31.059 question to leave us with. Resilience as the 00:35:31.059 --> 00:35:33.159 bedrock of leadership. Lots to think about there. 00:35:33.300 --> 00:35:34.900 Thank you so much for joining us today for this 00:35:34.900 --> 00:35:37.000 deep dive into the really fascinating trajectory 00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:38.039 of Brene Brown.