WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.459 Welcome to the Deep Dive, the place where we 00:00:02.459 --> 00:00:04.839 really try to cut through all the noise, you 00:00:04.839 --> 00:00:07.160 know, the dense research, and just distill a 00:00:07.160 --> 00:00:09.380 whole stack of sources down into the essential, 00:00:09.560 --> 00:00:12.939 fascinating insights you need. We want you to 00:00:12.939 --> 00:00:14.339 understand some of the world's most compelling 00:00:14.339 --> 00:00:17.120 figures. And today, yeah, we're diving deep into 00:00:17.120 --> 00:00:20.320 Bruce Wagner. He's a really genuinely unique... 00:00:20.539 --> 00:00:23.960 american novelist and screenwriter he uses this 00:00:23.960 --> 00:00:27.239 like glittering sometimes apocalyptic often kind 00:00:27.239 --> 00:00:30.160 of absurd lens of hollywood right to explore 00:00:30.160 --> 00:00:34.079 these incredibly deep spiritual and well existential 00:00:34.079 --> 00:00:36.359 themes it's quite a mix he provides a crucial 00:00:36.359 --> 00:00:38.759 shortcut honestly it's like instead of slogging 00:00:38.759 --> 00:00:40.899 through endless analyses of hollywood culture 00:00:40.899 --> 00:00:43.320 wagner just takes you straight to the contradiction 00:00:43.320 --> 00:00:45.219 right in its heart doesn't he he really does 00:00:45.219 --> 00:00:46.979 we've been tracing his path and it's remarkable 00:00:47.579 --> 00:00:49.799 I mean, from being a high school dropout and 00:00:49.799 --> 00:00:52.479 literally a chauffeur in Beverly Hills. Yeah. 00:00:52.579 --> 00:00:55.000 Driving the actual cars. Exactly. All the way 00:00:55.000 --> 00:00:57.000 to becoming this critically acclaimed author, 00:00:57.179 --> 00:01:00.399 collaborating with cinematic heavyweights, people 00:01:00.399 --> 00:01:03.799 like David Cronenberg, Oliver Stone. It's quite 00:01:03.799 --> 00:01:06.930 the journey. And our mission today, really. is 00:01:06.930 --> 00:01:09.650 to uncover those key dualities that define his 00:01:09.650 --> 00:01:12.609 career. Because he isn't just, you know, a writer 00:01:12.609 --> 00:01:15.790 about Hollywood. He's more like an observer of 00:01:15.790 --> 00:01:18.170 the world's spiritual sickness, if you will, 00:01:18.250 --> 00:01:20.569 diagnosed through the very specific cultural 00:01:20.569 --> 00:01:24.230 disease that is L .A. celebrity culture. That's 00:01:24.230 --> 00:01:26.530 a good way to put it. As the sources really emphasize, 00:01:26.769 --> 00:01:31.269 his work is defined by this apocalyptic yet ultimately 00:01:31.269 --> 00:01:34.030 spiritual view of humanity as seen through the 00:01:34.030 --> 00:01:36.250 lens of Hollywood. And that tension, right, the 00:01:36.250 --> 00:01:38.870 super high gloss surface versus the, let's say, 00:01:38.909 --> 00:01:42.030 existential rot underneath. That's the intellectual 00:01:42.030 --> 00:01:44.650 engine. It drives pretty much everything he creates. 00:01:44.750 --> 00:01:46.849 And it's that insider outsider status, I think, 00:01:46.849 --> 00:01:48.969 that makes him so relevant, so potent. He doesn't 00:01:48.969 --> 00:01:51.290 just critique the wealthy from afar. He actually 00:01:51.290 --> 00:01:53.829 lived among them, you know, servicing them, driving 00:01:53.829 --> 00:01:55.730 them around, witnessing their private vulnerabilities 00:01:55.730 --> 00:01:58.129 and their public absurdities like firsthand. 00:01:58.310 --> 00:02:00.510 Absolutely. He had a front row seat. So let's 00:02:00.510 --> 00:02:02.250 start digging into that contradiction right at 00:02:02.250 --> 00:02:04.909 the beginning. Bruce Allen Wagner, born in Madison, 00:02:05.049 --> 00:02:08.870 Wisconsin, 1954. So not a native Angeleno, which 00:02:08.870 --> 00:02:10.990 is interesting. Yeah, that initial geographic 00:02:10.990 --> 00:02:13.129 distance, even though it was brief, maybe it 00:02:13.129 --> 00:02:15.189 helped shape those later observational skills. 00:02:15.650 --> 00:02:17.870 Gave him a bit of perspective before he was immersed. 00:02:18.310 --> 00:02:20.469 Could be. The family moved around quite a bit, 00:02:20.490 --> 00:02:22.370 actually. First to San Francisco when he was 00:02:22.370 --> 00:02:24.750 about four, and then like four years later, they 00:02:24.750 --> 00:02:29.240 landed permanently in Los Angeles. OK, so moving 00:02:29.240 --> 00:02:32.680 right into the core of the spectacle at age eight, 00:02:32.719 --> 00:02:34.340 that kind of sets the backdrop for everything 00:02:34.340 --> 00:02:36.439 else that follows, you'd think. Definitely. And 00:02:36.439 --> 00:02:38.759 the family life itself, it sort of mirrors the 00:02:38.759 --> 00:02:41.500 shifting ambitions of L .A. in that mid -century 00:02:41.500 --> 00:02:44.759 period. His father, Morton Wagner, he was a media 00:02:44.759 --> 00:02:48.300 guy, started in radio, then moved into TV. He 00:02:48.300 --> 00:02:50.699 actually produced The Les Crane Show. Oh, wow. 00:02:50.780 --> 00:02:53.039 The Les Crane Show. That was a pretty significant 00:02:53.039 --> 00:02:55.199 cultural moment in the 60s, wasn't it? Kind of 00:02:55.199 --> 00:02:57.800 edgy for its time. Very much so. But then eventually 00:02:57.800 --> 00:03:00.080 his dad pivoted and became a stockbroker. So 00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:02.520 you see that shift, right, from the creative 00:03:02.520 --> 00:03:05.439 spectacle to the more solid world of finance. 00:03:05.759 --> 00:03:08.039 That's a very L .A. trajectory in itself almost. 00:03:08.719 --> 00:03:13.050 Meanwhile, his mother, Bernice Milletz. She created 00:03:13.050 --> 00:03:15.370 her own kind of stability after his parents divorced. 00:03:15.810 --> 00:03:17.909 Worked for, what, 40 years at Saks Fifth Avenue? 00:03:18.090 --> 00:03:20.229 40 years, yeah, at Saks. So you've got these 00:03:20.229 --> 00:03:23.169 twin pillars of Beverly Hills culture right there 00:03:23.169 --> 00:03:26.490 in his background. You know, fleeting nature 00:03:26.490 --> 00:03:30.090 of media fame on one side and the sort of enduring 00:03:30.090 --> 00:03:33.169 nature of high end commerce on the other. Those 00:03:33.169 --> 00:03:35.169 must have been his first lessons, really, in 00:03:35.169 --> 00:03:37.229 how that whole ecosystem of wealth and illusion 00:03:37.229 --> 00:03:39.870 operates, seeing it from both angles. But the 00:03:39.870 --> 00:03:43.150 real education arguably came when he kind of 00:03:43.150 --> 00:03:45.129 rejected the traditional path. He went to Beverly 00:03:45.129 --> 00:03:47.409 Vista Elementary, then Beverly Hills High School, 00:03:47.449 --> 00:03:49.669 you know, schools of the elite. Right. Right 00:03:49.669 --> 00:03:51.969 in the heart of it. But he dropped out junior 00:03:51.969 --> 00:03:54.500 year. And this is the pivotal moment, I think. 00:03:54.520 --> 00:03:57.020 He basically traded that academic conformity 00:03:57.020 --> 00:04:00.240 for, well, real raw material experience. And 00:04:00.240 --> 00:04:03.759 that real world experience, it was just so intensely 00:04:03.759 --> 00:04:06.460 varied. It gave him this immediate insight into 00:04:06.460 --> 00:04:08.620 the whole spectrum of human desperation, human 00:04:08.620 --> 00:04:10.360 privilege. He worked in bookstores, okay, that 00:04:10.360 --> 00:04:12.699 connects him to the literary world. Sure, the 00:04:12.699 --> 00:04:15.020 bookish side. But then he also drove an ambulance. 00:04:16.389 --> 00:04:18.709 For Schaefer Ambulance Service, that's a world 00:04:18.709 --> 00:04:20.790 away from Sachs and Stockbrokers. Yeah, let's 00:04:20.790 --> 00:04:22.889 pause there for a second. Driving an ambulance, 00:04:23.089 --> 00:04:25.709 I mean, that's an intensely visceral front line 00:04:25.709 --> 00:04:27.709 kind of job, isn't it? Totally. You're dealing 00:04:27.709 --> 00:04:31.290 with sudden death, profound injury, trauma. You're 00:04:31.290 --> 00:04:34.029 seeing humanity at its absolute most vulnerable, 00:04:34.250 --> 00:04:37.889 its most raw. And then to transition from that 00:04:37.889 --> 00:04:41.509 to driving a black car for the elite at the Beverly 00:04:41.509 --> 00:04:44.930 Hills Hotel. That contrast is just. It's everything, 00:04:45.170 --> 00:04:47.189 isn't it? As a chauffeur, suddenly you're dealing 00:04:47.189 --> 00:04:49.860 with, well... Sometimes profound triviality, 00:04:49.860 --> 00:04:52.079 right? Exactly. Ferrying people to dinners, meetings, 00:04:52.319 --> 00:04:54.839 fancy parties. Yeah. Just watching their self 00:04:54.839 --> 00:04:57.240 -important dramas unfold in the rearview mirror. 00:04:57.480 --> 00:04:59.399 But in both roles, think about it. The ambulance 00:04:59.399 --> 00:05:01.480 driver and the chauffeur, he was privy to these 00:05:01.480 --> 00:05:04.300 highly confidential, often intensely emotional 00:05:04.300 --> 00:05:06.819 moments in people's lives. Yeah. He was like 00:05:06.819 --> 00:05:08.819 the invisible servant, wasn't he? Of both life 00:05:08.819 --> 00:05:11.439 and death, you could say. A profound crisis on 00:05:11.439 --> 00:05:14.439 one hand and privileged boredom on the other. 00:05:15.100 --> 00:05:17.420 That's really the origin of his narrative voice, 00:05:17.519 --> 00:05:20.480 you feel. This ground level perspective gave 00:05:20.480 --> 00:05:23.379 him that aha moment, that insight that very few 00:05:23.379 --> 00:05:25.839 writers ever really get. He wasn't just relying 00:05:25.839 --> 00:05:28.560 on gossip columns or media reports. No, he was 00:05:28.560 --> 00:05:31.620 witnessing it. The casual cruelty, maybe the 00:05:31.620 --> 00:05:36.689 drug use, the backroom deals, the sheer. desperation 00:05:36.689 --> 00:05:39.709 that can define the privileged class when they 00:05:39.709 --> 00:05:41.850 think no one's watching or when they think the 00:05:41.850 --> 00:05:43.750 person watching doesn't matter. He literally 00:05:43.750 --> 00:05:46.750 got paid to watch the mechanisms of power and 00:05:46.750 --> 00:05:49.709 anxiety up close. He wasn't writing about Hollywood 00:05:49.709 --> 00:05:51.490 from the outside looking in. He was writing from 00:05:51.490 --> 00:05:53.629 the passenger seat, wasn't he? Right in the center 00:05:53.629 --> 00:05:55.870 of the action. Knowing the secret geography of 00:05:55.870 --> 00:05:58.329 the city, you know, the hidden drives, the discrete 00:05:58.329 --> 00:06:00.709 entrances, all that stuff. OK, so he's armed 00:06:00.709 --> 00:06:03.209 with this immense sort of catalog of real life 00:06:03.209 --> 00:06:06.379 material. He starts writing in his 20s. But Hollywood 00:06:06.379 --> 00:06:08.879 being Hollywood, well, it didn't exactly roll 00:06:08.879 --> 00:06:10.879 out the red carpet immediately for his unique 00:06:10.879 --> 00:06:13.699 insights. No surprise there, maybe. His first 00:06:13.699 --> 00:06:16.800 actual attempt at a screenplay, Young Lust, back 00:06:16.800 --> 00:06:20.500 in 1984. It got produced by the legendary Robert 00:06:20.500 --> 00:06:24.100 Stigwood. Yeah, Stigwood, Saturday Night Fever, 00:06:24.199 --> 00:06:29.160 Grease. Big name. Huge. But, tellingly, the film 00:06:29.160 --> 00:06:32.259 was never released. just shelved a near miss 00:06:32.259 --> 00:06:34.720 that really speaks volumes about the capricious 00:06:34.720 --> 00:06:36.620 nature of the industry he was already starting 00:06:36.620 --> 00:06:39.240 to critique that must have been a blow and that 00:06:39.240 --> 00:06:41.379 disappointment that feeling of having created 00:06:41.379 --> 00:06:44.579 something that maybe only insiders saw or nobody 00:06:44.579 --> 00:06:49.900 saw it led him to a really critical pivot He 00:06:49.900 --> 00:06:52.439 apparently channeled that frustration into creating 00:06:52.439 --> 00:06:56.300 a modern take on F. Scott Fitzgerald's Pat Hobby 00:06:56.300 --> 00:06:58.579 short stories. Oh, interesting. The Pat Hobby 00:06:58.579 --> 00:07:01.879 connection. Remind us, Hobby is the sort of washed 00:07:01.879 --> 00:07:04.519 up alcoholic screenwriter, right? Always struggling, 00:07:04.720 --> 00:07:06.920 never quite catching a break in the old studio 00:07:06.920 --> 00:07:08.939 system. That's him. Exactly. The personification 00:07:08.939 --> 00:07:11.180 of Hollywood failure, pretty much. And by choosing 00:07:11.180 --> 00:07:13.000 that archetype, Wagner was kind of signaling, 00:07:13.079 --> 00:07:15.019 I think, that his work wasn't just going to be 00:07:15.019 --> 00:07:17.100 about. you know, glamorous celebrity. It was 00:07:17.100 --> 00:07:19.680 more about the existential struggle, the crushing 00:07:19.680 --> 00:07:22.519 banality sometimes of just striving within that 00:07:22.519 --> 00:07:24.399 system. Right. The desperation behind the facade. 00:07:24.699 --> 00:07:27.920 Yeah. And this archetype, combined with his own 00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:31.100 history as chauffeur days, it all coalesced into 00:07:31.100 --> 00:07:33.800 his breakthrough literary work, Force Majeure, 00:07:33.959 --> 00:07:38.180 The Bud Wiggins Stories. Published in 1991. And 00:07:38.180 --> 00:07:40.180 this book gave us Bud Wiggins, the chauffeur 00:07:40.180 --> 00:07:42.480 protagonist, the ultimate invisible witness. 00:07:42.779 --> 00:07:45.920 And it's crucial to remember how grassroots this 00:07:45.920 --> 00:07:48.120 success was initially, right? He didn't have 00:07:48.120 --> 00:07:49.980 a big publisher at first. No, not at all. He 00:07:49.980 --> 00:07:52.180 actually self -published it initially with Caldecott 00:07:52.180 --> 00:07:55.240 Chubb. They printed just a thousand copies. Wow, 00:07:55.319 --> 00:07:58.300 a thousand. Yeah, very small run. But the word 00:07:58.300 --> 00:08:00.800 spread like wildfire, especially within the industry. 00:08:00.860 --> 00:08:03.879 He was, you know, skewering. And those copies 00:08:03.879 --> 00:08:06.160 just flew off the shelves at BookSoup. Book soup, 00:08:06.319 --> 00:08:09.379 yeah. The literary heart of West Hollywood. That 00:08:09.379 --> 00:08:11.519 immediate sellout, it kind of showed that the 00:08:11.519 --> 00:08:13.300 industry recognized itself in the mirror he was 00:08:13.300 --> 00:08:14.920 holding up, didn't it? Even if it was uncomfortable. 00:08:15.259 --> 00:08:17.180 Oh, absolutely. And the recognition was instant 00:08:17.180 --> 00:08:19.279 and it was high level. Oliver Stone, I mean, 00:08:19.300 --> 00:08:22.180 a titan known for his visceral, often confrontational 00:08:22.180 --> 00:08:24.819 cinema, he optioned the book immediately, wanted 00:08:24.819 --> 00:08:27.779 to direct it. Oliver Stone, again, another huge 00:08:27.779 --> 00:08:32.019 Hollywood promise, but like young lust. It ultimately 00:08:32.019 --> 00:08:34.659 fell through, never came to fruition as a stone 00:08:34.659 --> 00:08:38.019 film, which, again, kind of underscores Wagner's 00:08:38.019 --> 00:08:40.600 recurring themes of fleeting success, promises 00:08:40.600 --> 00:08:43.620 unfulfilled in that world. But the material itself, 00:08:44.080 --> 00:08:48.580 the core story, was clearly enduring. Bud Wiggins, 00:08:48.639 --> 00:08:50.379 that chauffeur observer character, he became 00:08:50.379 --> 00:08:53.340 Wagner's most important creation, arguably. For 00:08:53.340 --> 00:08:55.919 sure. And Wagner himself confirmed that the script 00:08:55.919 --> 00:08:58.379 based on those stories, the one that really captured 00:08:58.379 --> 00:09:01.919 the decadence and the spiritual hollowness of 00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:04.779 L .A. in the early 90s that eventually evolved, 00:09:05.139 --> 00:09:07.299 it became the script for the film Maps to the 00:09:07.299 --> 00:09:09.779 Stars. The 2014 film with Cronenberg. Exactly. 00:09:09.779 --> 00:09:12.419 So it took, what, over two decades for that initial 00:09:12.419 --> 00:09:14.940 ground floor perspective, that chauffeur's view, 00:09:15.080 --> 00:09:17.690 to finally hit the big screen in that form. That's 00:09:17.690 --> 00:09:19.870 incredible persistence. And that initial literary 00:09:19.870 --> 00:09:21.570 success with Forest Majeure, even though the 00:09:21.570 --> 00:09:24.309 Stone movie didn't happen, it cemented his reputation, 00:09:24.470 --> 00:09:26.409 didn't it? Led to a major publishing deal. Yeah, 00:09:26.450 --> 00:09:29.570 with Random House. And his output then became 00:09:29.570 --> 00:09:32.029 pretty prolific and critically validated, too. 00:09:32.190 --> 00:09:34.710 I'm Losing You came out in 96. It wasn't just 00:09:34.710 --> 00:09:36.509 another novel. It got named a New York Times 00:09:36.509 --> 00:09:38.509 Notable Book of the Year. And what's that one 00:09:38.509 --> 00:09:42.100 about, Bradley? It's a really terrifyingly precise 00:09:42.100 --> 00:09:45.700 exploration of mortality, aging, and just the 00:09:45.700 --> 00:09:48.279 desperate length Angelenos particularly go to 00:09:48.279 --> 00:09:51.059 deny both of those things. Very L .A., very Wagner. 00:09:51.259 --> 00:09:54.320 Sounds intense. And then a few years later. Yeah, 00:09:54.399 --> 00:09:56.360 about five years later, The Chrysanthemum Palace 00:09:56.360 --> 00:09:59.860 in 2005. That one was a Pien Faulkner finalist 00:09:59.860 --> 00:10:03.240 in 2006. Big literary recognition. The Chrysanthemum 00:10:03.240 --> 00:10:06.350 Palace. Even the title suggests maybe a move 00:10:06.350 --> 00:10:08.809 toward more spiritual or historical themes, not 00:10:08.809 --> 00:10:11.190 just contemporary satire. I think so, yeah. It 00:10:11.190 --> 00:10:13.690 focuses more on a kind of doomed, maybe haunted 00:10:13.690 --> 00:10:16.190 aristocracy within L .A. He wasn't just writing 00:10:16.190 --> 00:10:18.289 about the here and now anymore. He was starting 00:10:18.289 --> 00:10:20.629 to place Hollywood in this broader historical 00:10:20.629 --> 00:10:23.129 and crucially moral context. And his satirical 00:10:23.129 --> 00:10:25.909 eye was just so sharp, clearly, that he wasn't 00:10:25.909 --> 00:10:27.529 confined just to novels. So he started becoming 00:10:27.529 --> 00:10:29.870 a commentator too, right? Leveraging those insights. 00:10:30.350 --> 00:10:33.110 Exactly. He started writing op -eds, essays for 00:10:33.110 --> 00:10:35.450 really prestigious publications, you know, The 00:10:35.450 --> 00:10:37.850 New Yorker, The New York Times, Vanity Fair, 00:10:38.070 --> 00:10:40.629 even Art Forum. He sort of became the authoritative 00:10:40.629 --> 00:10:43.350 voice, in a way, on that specific intersection 00:10:43.350 --> 00:10:46.789 of wealth, misery, and maybe spiritual questing 00:10:46.789 --> 00:10:48.769 in L .A. It really leads us back to that quote 00:10:48.769 --> 00:10:50.509 you mentioned earlier from the novelist John 00:10:50.509 --> 00:10:53.009 Pistelli. It really seems to encapsulate why 00:10:53.009 --> 00:10:56.690 Wagner's work endures, Pistelli said. His work 00:10:56.690 --> 00:10:58.850 exists in several different epochs simultaneously. 00:10:59.809 --> 00:11:02.409 Bruce Wagner's time has never left, is sure to 00:11:02.409 --> 00:11:04.809 arrive, and has come at last. It's such a great 00:11:04.809 --> 00:11:06.950 quote. It's powerful, yeah. But what does that 00:11:06.950 --> 00:11:08.809 really mean, do you think, in terms of his writing 00:11:08.809 --> 00:11:10.929 style, his impact? Why does it feel like it's 00:11:10.929 --> 00:11:13.039 always relevant? Well, I think it suggests that 00:11:13.039 --> 00:11:15.159 while the surfaces of his work are incredibly 00:11:15.159 --> 00:11:17.500 specific, you know, he'll mention the latest 00:11:17.500 --> 00:11:20.100 plastic surgery fad or the most exclusive restaurant, 00:11:20.299 --> 00:11:21.940 that kind of detail. Yeah, very contemporary 00:11:21.940 --> 00:11:24.879 details. But the core themes beneath that surface 00:11:24.879 --> 00:11:27.100 are absolutely timeless. We're talking envy, 00:11:27.360 --> 00:11:31.299 mortality, abuse of power, the search for meaning 00:11:31.299 --> 00:11:34.360 in a purely materialistic world. These are ancient 00:11:34.360 --> 00:11:36.659 concerns. Right. He writes about contemporary 00:11:36.659 --> 00:11:39.279 apocalypse, sure, but his concerns are essentially 00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:43.480 mythological. or maybe spiritual, at their root, 00:11:43.539 --> 00:11:45.799 and the way celebrity culture, especially in 00:11:45.799 --> 00:11:49.179 L .A., just accelerates and magnifies those ancient 00:11:49.179 --> 00:11:53.360 human flaws. Well, that ensures his work always 00:11:53.360 --> 00:11:55.700 feels relevant, always feels urgent, pretty much 00:11:55.700 --> 00:11:58.299 regardless of the year you read it. So his literary 00:11:58.299 --> 00:12:00.799 success was clearly established, but it seems 00:12:00.799 --> 00:12:02.879 like it was always intertwined with his screenwriting 00:12:02.879 --> 00:12:05.080 aspirations, wasn't it? He never fully left that 00:12:05.080 --> 00:12:08.120 world behind. No, never. And his path back into 00:12:08.120 --> 00:12:10.850 the cinematic world, or maybe his continued presence 00:12:10.850 --> 00:12:13.590 in it is surprisingly eclectic. It moves from 00:12:13.590 --> 00:12:15.809 that really highbrow satire we've been talking 00:12:15.809 --> 00:12:19.149 about all the way to, well, lowbrow horror almost. 00:12:19.370 --> 00:12:21.450 Yeah, that's a jump. Seems like a perfect illustration 00:12:21.450 --> 00:12:23.730 maybe of the practical compromises you sometimes 00:12:23.730 --> 00:12:25.649 have to make in Hollywood. Could be. I mean, 00:12:25.669 --> 00:12:28.070 how does the acclaimed novelist who writes these 00:12:28.070 --> 00:12:30.389 searing critiques about the decaying soul of 00:12:30.389 --> 00:12:33.750 Beverly Hills end up co -writing a sequel about, 00:12:33.909 --> 00:12:36.690 you know, a dream demon with knives for fingers? 00:12:36.889 --> 00:12:39.210 Right. How did that happen? The Nightmare on 00:12:39.210 --> 00:12:41.460 Elm Street connection. It apparently all came 00:12:41.460 --> 00:12:44.639 down to a cold read. Wes Craven, you know, the 00:12:44.639 --> 00:12:47.340 master of horror. Legend. He read one of Wagner's 00:12:47.340 --> 00:12:50.159 unproduced scripts, a high concept thing called 00:12:50.159 --> 00:12:52.500 They Sleep by Night. And Craven was apparently 00:12:52.500 --> 00:12:56.000 really impressed by Wagner's grasp of psychological 00:12:56.000 --> 00:12:59.120 tension his way with atmosphere. Okay, so Craven 00:12:59.120 --> 00:13:02.539 saw something beyond just satire. Exactly. And 00:13:02.539 --> 00:13:05.620 then Craven recruited Wagner to co -write A Nightmare 00:13:05.620 --> 00:13:09.149 on Elm Street 3. Dream Warriors. That was 1987. 00:13:09.330 --> 00:13:11.690 And that collaboration itself is actually pretty 00:13:11.690 --> 00:13:13.250 historically significant when you look at who 00:13:13.250 --> 00:13:15.389 was involved. It really is. Wagner shares the 00:13:15.389 --> 00:13:18.389 story by credit with Wes Craven himself. plus 00:13:18.389 --> 00:13:20.529 Chuck Russell, who later directed the Mass and 00:13:20.529 --> 00:13:23.450 the Blob remake, and Frank Darabont. Frank Darabont, 00:13:23.590 --> 00:13:25.889 Shawshank Redemption, The Green Mile, later The 00:13:25.889 --> 00:13:27.789 Walking Dead showrunner. That's an incredible 00:13:27.789 --> 00:13:30.389 assembly of talent on a horror sequel. It's wild, 00:13:30.490 --> 00:13:33.169 isn't it? A literary satirist, the master of 00:13:33.169 --> 00:13:35.730 horror, a future blockbuster director, and a 00:13:35.730 --> 00:13:39.210 future prestige TV creator. Talk about an unlikely 00:13:39.210 --> 00:13:41.629 training ground. But if you actually look closely 00:13:41.629 --> 00:13:43.850 at Dream Warriors, the third Elm Street film, 00:13:44.009 --> 00:13:46.529 it's very focused on the psychological landscape 00:13:46.529 --> 00:13:50.250 of the kids. on institutional failure, the hospital 00:13:50.250 --> 00:13:53.490 setting, the trauma of youth, themes that are 00:13:53.490 --> 00:13:56.049 not actually entirely alien to Wagner's other 00:13:56.049 --> 00:13:57.990 work if you think about it. That's a good point. 00:13:58.110 --> 00:14:00.490 So he kind of cut his teeth, maybe learned some 00:14:00.490 --> 00:14:02.789 mechanics in the commercial trenches of the horror 00:14:02.789 --> 00:14:05.250 genre. Pacing, suspense, that sort of thing. 00:14:05.370 --> 00:14:08.049 Probably. But he pretty quickly returned to his 00:14:08.049 --> 00:14:11.049 own unique vision with that cult miniseries, 00:14:11.169 --> 00:14:15.730 Wild Palms. Ah, yes. Wild Palms, 1993. That felt 00:14:15.730 --> 00:14:18.409 pure Wagner, didn't it? Totally. He created it, 00:14:18.470 --> 00:14:21.070 co -executive produced it for ABC based on a 00:14:21.070 --> 00:14:22.750 comic strip he'd actually written for Details 00:14:22.750 --> 00:14:24.990 magazine. Right. I remember that comic. And it 00:14:24.990 --> 00:14:27.870 was just this surreal, almost proto -cyberpunk 00:14:27.870 --> 00:14:31.309 vision of a future Los Angeles, saturated with 00:14:31.309 --> 00:14:35.360 virtual reality. weird new religions, media fascism. 00:14:35.379 --> 00:14:39.240 It was a perfect expression, really, of his anxieties 00:14:39.240 --> 00:14:41.679 about spiritual collapse combined with technological 00:14:41.679 --> 00:14:44.340 takeover. Very prescient in some ways. And the 00:14:44.340 --> 00:14:45.820 fact that he co -executed produced that with 00:14:45.820 --> 00:14:48.080 Oliver Stone again. Yes, Stone again. It just 00:14:48.080 --> 00:14:51.159 underscores his ability to attract these high 00:14:51.159 --> 00:14:54.519 caliber, risk -taking collaborators, people who 00:14:54.519 --> 00:14:57.580 maybe shared his slightly paranoid, definitely 00:14:57.580 --> 00:15:00.500 apocalyptic view of American power and culture. 00:15:00.740 --> 00:15:02.669 He clearly resonated with... certain types of 00:15:02.669 --> 00:15:05.169 filmmakers. And he showed remarkable range, too, 00:15:05.250 --> 00:15:07.929 extending into comedy. He was an executive producer 00:15:07.929 --> 00:15:10.409 and co -writer with Tracy Ullman for her show, 00:15:10.529 --> 00:15:12.370 Tracy Ullman's State of the Union. Oh, I love 00:15:12.370 --> 00:15:15.250 that show. From 2008 to 2010, right? That's the 00:15:15.250 --> 00:15:17.350 one. And that allowed him to use these short, 00:15:17.389 --> 00:15:20.129 sharp comedic sketches to comment on contemporary 00:15:20.129 --> 00:15:22.690 politics, celebrity life, basically applying 00:15:22.690 --> 00:15:25.490 that satirical scalpel he has, but in a faster, 00:15:25.610 --> 00:15:28.230 lighter format. Very versatile. But the true 00:15:28.230 --> 00:15:30.490 full circle moment, I think, has to be the film 00:15:30.490 --> 00:15:32.590 adaptation of his original chauffeur stories, 00:15:32.870 --> 00:15:36.070 Maps to the Stars, 2014. Absolutely. And this 00:15:36.070 --> 00:15:37.990 was a script that David Cronenberg, the master 00:15:37.990 --> 00:15:40.389 of body horror, psychological decay, that kind 00:15:40.389 --> 00:15:42.809 of unsettling cinema, had apparently been determined 00:15:42.809 --> 00:15:45.679 to make for nearly a decade. A decade. Why so 00:15:45.679 --> 00:15:48.120 long? Was it just too dark for studios? Apparently, 00:15:48.259 --> 00:15:51.159 yeah. The script is just so relentlessly dark, 00:15:51.220 --> 00:15:54.519 so critical of Hollywood's, like, self -cannibalization, 00:15:54.679 --> 00:15:57.500 its incestuous nature. It was deemed pretty much 00:15:57.500 --> 00:16:00.500 unmakeable for years. But Cronenberg, you know, 00:16:00.500 --> 00:16:03.740 he recognized a kindred spirit in Wagner, I think. 00:16:03.820 --> 00:16:06.179 Someone else who saw the physical and moral decay 00:16:06.179 --> 00:16:08.580 inherent in obsessive ambition, particularly 00:16:08.580 --> 00:16:11.799 in that L .A. context. A perfect pairing in hindsight. 00:16:12.320 --> 00:16:14.299 And when the film finally premiered, it was a 00:16:14.299 --> 00:16:17.059 critical triumph, wasn't it? Especially for Julianne 00:16:17.059 --> 00:16:19.259 Moore. Oh, totally. Julianne Moore gave this 00:16:19.259 --> 00:16:22.360 incredible, unhinged performance as Havana Segrand, 00:16:22.539 --> 00:16:25.639 the fading, deeply unstable actress. And she 00:16:25.639 --> 00:16:27.779 won Best Actress at the Cannes Film Festival 00:16:27.779 --> 00:16:31.240 for it in 2014. Major award. And here's the kicker. 00:16:31.279 --> 00:16:34.179 The delightful, absurd irony that Wagner himself 00:16:34.179 --> 00:16:37.039 must just appreciate. Go on. Wagner was the person 00:16:37.039 --> 00:16:39.340 who actually accepted the award on Julianne Moore's 00:16:39.340 --> 00:16:41.980 behalf at Cannes. She couldn't be there. No way. 00:16:42.100 --> 00:16:45.179 Seriously. Yeah. So the high school dropout who 00:16:45.179 --> 00:16:47.399 used to drive the black cars around Beverly Hills 00:16:47.399 --> 00:16:50.639 was standing on arguably the most prestigious 00:16:50.639 --> 00:16:53.679 stage in the cinematic world, accepting an award 00:16:53.679 --> 00:16:56.620 for a film that absolutely skewers the very industry 00:16:56.620 --> 00:16:59.759 he's now being celebrated by. That is that's 00:16:59.759 --> 00:17:02.159 peak Wagner, isn't it? He became the ultimate 00:17:02.159 --> 00:17:04.660 insider celebrating his own ultimate critique. 00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:07.380 Amazing. And the layers keep going. If you look 00:17:07.380 --> 00:17:10.160 really closely at the film, the irony deepens 00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:14.460 even more. Wagner has an uncredited acting cameo 00:17:14.460 --> 00:17:18.039 as Benji's chauffeur. Benji's the horrible child 00:17:18.039 --> 00:17:20.680 star character. Stop it. He plays a chauffeur 00:17:20.680 --> 00:17:22.240 in the movie based on his chauffeur stories. 00:17:22.619 --> 00:17:25.309 He literally returned to the role. that provided 00:17:25.309 --> 00:17:27.509 him with all the initial insights, like closing 00:17:27.509 --> 00:17:29.509 the loop perfectly on his professional journey. 00:17:29.670 --> 00:17:32.009 The observer became the material, and then the 00:17:32.009 --> 00:17:34.309 observer played the observer in the final product. 00:17:34.470 --> 00:17:36.789 It's wild. It's a perfect metaphor for his whole 00:17:36.789 --> 00:17:39.329 career, really. He operates at the highest levels, 00:17:39.410 --> 00:17:41.970 gets the awards, the recognition, but he always 00:17:41.970 --> 00:17:44.549 seems to retain that critical, ground -level, 00:17:44.589 --> 00:17:47.819 maybe chauffeur's perspective. Yeah. And we shouldn't 00:17:47.819 --> 00:17:50.200 forget his own directing efforts, too. He adapted 00:17:50.200 --> 00:17:52.680 his own novels like I'm Losing You in 98 and 00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:55.359 Women in Film in 2001. Right. Trying to maintain 00:17:55.359 --> 00:17:57.720 control over the vision. He seems like an artist 00:17:57.720 --> 00:18:01.319 who's just dedicated to translating his singular, 00:18:01.480 --> 00:18:04.200 often difficult vision, regardless of the medium 00:18:04.200 --> 00:18:06.000 or, you know, the commercial challenges involved. 00:18:06.259 --> 00:18:08.599 So with that incredible trajectory, you know, 00:18:08.619 --> 00:18:11.339 Khan Award, collaborations with Konenberg and 00:18:11.339 --> 00:18:15.490 Stone, literary acclaim. You might think Wagner 00:18:15.490 --> 00:18:17.450 had finally achieved this sort of comfortable 00:18:17.450 --> 00:18:19.750 autonomy within the industry, right? You'd think 00:18:19.750 --> 00:18:23.589 so. But his dedication to, let's call it, uncompromising 00:18:23.589 --> 00:18:26.630 truth, or his version of it, eventually put him 00:18:26.630 --> 00:18:29.089 on this direct collision course with a much newer 00:18:29.089 --> 00:18:31.150 kind of gatekeeper. Not just Hollywood money, 00:18:31.230 --> 00:18:34.230 but the contemporary culture of publishing anxiety, 00:18:34.650 --> 00:18:37.309 sensitivity concerns. Right. This is a really 00:18:37.309 --> 00:18:39.329 crucial pivot in his career, isn't it? Moving 00:18:39.329 --> 00:18:41.970 from satirizing Hollywood's greed and vanity 00:18:41.970 --> 00:18:45.049 to grappling with these newer cultural constraints 00:18:45.049 --> 00:18:48.109 on. artistic language itself absolutely and this 00:18:48.109 --> 00:18:50.789 whole conflict centers on his 2020 novel the 00:18:50.789 --> 00:18:53.450 marvel universe origin stories okay so what happened 00:18:53.450 --> 00:18:54.869 there he had a book deal right yeah he signed 00:18:54.869 --> 00:18:56.890 a deal for this book with counterpoint press 00:18:56.890 --> 00:19:00.650 back in 2019 he delivered the manuscript everything 00:19:00.650 --> 00:19:02.930 seemed fine initially but then the relationship 00:19:02.930 --> 00:19:06.390 apparently soured pretty quickly the editor and 00:19:06.390 --> 00:19:09.210 publisher deemed specific language within the 00:19:09.210 --> 00:19:13.630 novel to be Problematic. Problematic. That word 00:19:13.630 --> 00:19:16.410 carries a lot of weight these days. What was 00:19:16.410 --> 00:19:19.549 the specific issue? Well... We have to analyze 00:19:19.549 --> 00:19:22.049 the specific objection because it's really instructive 00:19:22.049 --> 00:19:24.430 about the climate, I think. The issue wasn't 00:19:24.430 --> 00:19:26.769 like a general condemnation of the whole works 00:19:26.769 --> 00:19:29.470 themes or anything. It focused very specifically 00:19:29.470 --> 00:19:33.089 on the word fat. The word fat. Yeah. Apparently 00:19:33.089 --> 00:19:34.910 there is a character in the book, a 500 pound 00:19:34.910 --> 00:19:37.789 woman who playfully self identifies using that 00:19:37.789 --> 00:19:41.250 word. She calls herself the fat Joan. And Wagner 00:19:41.250 --> 00:19:44.329 intended this as an homage, apparently, to the 00:19:44.329 --> 00:19:47.029 popular social media personality, the fat Jew. 00:19:47.269 --> 00:19:49.500 OK, so. It's character voice, self -description, 00:19:49.660 --> 00:19:52.759 possibly satirical or provocative. Exactly. But 00:19:52.759 --> 00:19:55.180 the publisher reportedly drew a really hard line. 00:19:55.339 --> 00:19:57.839 They asserted that, quote, not even a character 00:19:57.839 --> 00:20:02.259 can call herself that. Wow. That's a significant 00:20:02.259 --> 00:20:05.920 stance. It effectively argues that certain words 00:20:05.920 --> 00:20:08.519 or phrases, regardless of the context, regardless 00:20:08.519 --> 00:20:10.920 of the character's intention, regardless of any 00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:13.940 satirical purpose, are just completely off limits 00:20:13.940 --> 00:20:16.059 in contemporary fiction now. That seems to be 00:20:16.059 --> 00:20:18.660 the implication, yeah. And the writer Sam Wasson, 00:20:18.700 --> 00:20:21.180 he wrote about this conflict in an Airmail article 00:20:21.180 --> 00:20:24.759 called Bruce Wagner's Woke Universe. And Wasson 00:20:24.759 --> 00:20:26.599 noted speculation that the editor might have 00:20:26.599 --> 00:20:29.900 been cautioned by sensitivity readers. Ah, sensitivity 00:20:29.900 --> 00:20:33.200 readers. Those consultants brought into vet manuscripts 00:20:33.200 --> 00:20:36.019 for potential offense or controversy before publication. 00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:38.240 Right. Now, whether they were officially involved 00:20:38.240 --> 00:20:41.039 or it was just the publisher's internal policy 00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:43.559 reflecting that trend, the outcome was the same. 00:20:43.930 --> 00:20:46.390 This raises such fundamental questions for any 00:20:46.390 --> 00:20:48.930 artist, especially a satirist, doesn't it? If 00:20:48.930 --> 00:20:51.089 a character can't even use self -deprecating 00:20:51.089 --> 00:20:53.150 or playful language about themselves, language 00:20:53.150 --> 00:20:56.250 that's meant to be provocative. Well, a satire, 00:20:56.309 --> 00:20:59.009 which so often relies on exaggeration and even 00:20:59.009 --> 00:21:01.890 offense to reveal societal truths, it becomes 00:21:01.890 --> 00:21:04.049 almost impossible, right? It really hamstrings 00:21:04.049 --> 00:21:06.890 it. And Wagner's response was immediate and it 00:21:06.890 --> 00:21:10.230 was profound. He really emphasized the stakes 00:21:10.230 --> 00:21:13.109 involved for him. He stated publicly, quote, 00:21:19.299 --> 00:21:22.480 Thrown into a furnace. That's not hyperbole for 00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:24.980 him, is it? It sounds like a core statement of 00:21:24.980 --> 00:21:27.819 his artistic philosophy. I think it is. Satire 00:21:27.819 --> 00:21:30.460 demands the freedom to let characters speak in 00:21:30.460 --> 00:21:33.519 messy, inappropriate, sometimes even self -destructive 00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:36.779 ways. That's how it holds a mirror up to society's 00:21:36.779 --> 00:21:39.160 own flaws. If the publisher feels they have to 00:21:39.160 --> 00:21:41.220 clean up the mirror first, then the reflection 00:21:41.220 --> 00:21:44.630 becomes useless, doesn't it? Completely. So rather 00:21:44.630 --> 00:21:47.410 than compromise his artistic vision, you know, 00:21:47.410 --> 00:21:50.230 change the character's voice or spend potentially 00:21:50.230 --> 00:21:52.750 years trying to find another traditional publisher 00:21:52.750 --> 00:21:55.210 willing to take on what was now perceived as 00:21:55.210 --> 00:21:58.150 a risky book, Wagner made this really radical, 00:21:58.329 --> 00:22:01.109 highly unconventional choice. He basically rejected 00:22:01.109 --> 00:22:03.970 the entire commercial model that he'd been navigating 00:22:03.970 --> 00:22:06.230 and critiquing his whole life. What did he do? 00:22:06.559 --> 00:22:09.500 He chose the path of, well, ultimate artistic 00:22:09.500 --> 00:22:11.740 integrity over any potential financial gain. 00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:15.380 On October 13th, 2020, he released the complete 00:22:15.380 --> 00:22:18.960 novel, The Marvel Universe, origin stories for 00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:21.880 free into the public domain on his own website, 00:22:22.119 --> 00:22:26.829 brucewagner .la. Wow. Just gave it away. For 00:22:26.829 --> 00:22:29.430 a professional novelist whose work is literally 00:22:29.430 --> 00:22:32.609 his livelihood, that's a massive statement. It's 00:22:32.609 --> 00:22:35.230 like an act of cultural protest against editorial 00:22:35.230 --> 00:22:37.349 constraint. It really is. And think about the 00:22:37.349 --> 00:22:39.690 implications for you, the listener, or for any 00:22:39.690 --> 00:22:43.789 creator. This is a rejection of that whole Hollywood 00:22:43.789 --> 00:22:46.049 contract culture, the publishing gatekeepers, 00:22:46.170 --> 00:22:48.049 everything he spent his life writing about. He 00:22:48.049 --> 00:22:50.430 essentially said, look, if you won't let me publish 00:22:50.430 --> 00:22:52.250 the truth as I see it with the language necessary 00:22:52.250 --> 00:22:54.269 for it, then I'll just give the truth away. Incredible. 00:22:54.349 --> 00:22:56.380 And what happened after he released it? for free. 00:22:56.420 --> 00:22:57.839 Did people just download it? Well, yeah, people 00:22:57.839 --> 00:23:00.599 could download it freely. But the aftermath highlights 00:23:00.599 --> 00:23:03.460 the sort of strange realities of modern publishing 00:23:03.460 --> 00:23:06.000 and distribution, too. Even though he gave the 00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:08.500 book away, it very quickly became available as 00:23:08.500 --> 00:23:11.359 a print on demand title through Amazon. Ah, OK. 00:23:11.480 --> 00:23:13.339 So people could buy a physical copy if they wanted. 00:23:13.460 --> 00:23:16.099 Did he get royalties from that? No. Sticking 00:23:16.099 --> 00:23:19.680 absolutely to his choice, Wagner receives zero 00:23:19.680 --> 00:23:22.920 profit from those Amazon on demand sales. He 00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:25.099 really committed to the principle then? Fully. 00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:28.579 He did allow a limited signed edition to be printed 00:23:28.579 --> 00:23:31.380 by a new small publisher called Felix Farmer 00:23:31.380 --> 00:23:34.319 Press. But again, by his own explicit choice, 00:23:34.619 --> 00:23:37.339 he receives no monetary gain from that limited 00:23:37.339 --> 00:23:39.579 run either. He just wanted the integrity of the 00:23:39.579 --> 00:23:41.839 material preserved, outside of what he saw as 00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:43.440 the commercial pressure cooker that wanted to 00:23:43.440 --> 00:23:45.700 dilute it. It's just a remarkable demonstration 00:23:45.700 --> 00:23:48.339 of his dedication to his voice, his specific 00:23:48.339 --> 00:23:51.000 language above absolutely everything else. Above 00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:53.500 profit, above platform, above convenience. Yeah. 00:23:53.579 --> 00:23:56.519 This decision then to basically sacrifice profit 00:23:56.519 --> 00:23:59.240 for principle. It leads us directly to the other 00:23:59.240 --> 00:24:01.759 major theme, often quieter, but always present 00:24:01.759 --> 00:24:04.960 in Bruce Wagner's life and work. The spiritual 00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:07.579 seeker. Exactly. This is the ultimate duality 00:24:07.579 --> 00:24:09.240 we talked about at the start, isn't it? The man 00:24:09.240 --> 00:24:11.400 who writes so savagely about the profane artifice 00:24:11.400 --> 00:24:14.980 of Hollywood is also simultaneously deeply dedicated 00:24:14.980 --> 00:24:18.279 to a kind of transcendent spiritual path. When 00:24:18.279 --> 00:24:20.859 you look at his work through that lens, suddenly 00:24:20.859 --> 00:24:23.359 the apocalyptic themes, the constant focus on 00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:26.740 death, karma, rebirth maybe, it all makes much 00:24:26.740 --> 00:24:28.599 more sense, doesn't it? It's not just satire. 00:24:28.599 --> 00:24:30.759 There's a spiritual framework there. Absolutely. 00:24:30.779 --> 00:24:34.019 And this path, it seems to have begun formally 00:24:34.019 --> 00:24:36.579 or at least taken a very significant turn back 00:24:36.579 --> 00:24:39.740 in 1994. What happened in 94? That was the year 00:24:39.740 --> 00:24:42.819 Wagner interviewed the famous and controversial 00:24:42.819 --> 00:24:46.000 shaman and author Carlos Castaneda. He did the 00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:48.829 interview for Details magazine. Ah, Castaneda. 00:24:49.029 --> 00:24:51.210 Yeah. Huge figure in the counterculture and New 00:24:51.210 --> 00:24:53.730 Age movement. The teachings of Don Juan. Right. 00:24:53.829 --> 00:24:56.250 And that encounter, it clearly wasn't just a 00:24:56.250 --> 00:24:58.150 journalistic assignment for Wagner. It proved 00:24:58.150 --> 00:25:00.089 absolutely pivotal. It led to Wagner becoming 00:25:00.089 --> 00:25:02.849 deeply integrated into Castaneda's inner circle. 00:25:02.990 --> 00:25:05.430 Really? Inside Castaneda's group? And did he 00:25:05.430 --> 00:25:07.589 join under his own famous name? No, interestingly, 00:25:07.730 --> 00:25:10.890 he adopted an assumed name, Lorenzo Drake. Lorenzo 00:25:10.890 --> 00:25:13.230 Drake. Okay, there's a crucial psychological 00:25:13.230 --> 00:25:15.450 parallel again, isn't there? Yeah. Just like 00:25:15.450 --> 00:25:17.859 his life as a chauffeur. Exactly. It's another 00:25:17.859 --> 00:25:20.240 role where he maintains this close proximity 00:25:20.240 --> 00:25:24.299 to power, to esoteric knowledge maybe, but under 00:25:24.299 --> 00:25:27.500 an invisible assumed identity. He remains the 00:25:27.500 --> 00:25:30.099 silent observer, even within the inner sanctum. 00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:32.519 Fascinating. And he became deeply involved, you 00:25:32.519 --> 00:25:34.180 said? Yeah, very involved with the teachings 00:25:34.180 --> 00:25:36.779 and the organization surrounding Castaneda. He 00:25:36.779 --> 00:25:38.880 even directed the first instructional videos 00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:42.259 on tensegrity for Clear Green. Clear Green. That's 00:25:42.259 --> 00:25:44.500 the organization dedicated to Castaneda's specific 00:25:44.500 --> 00:25:47.339 system, right? That's right. Tensegrity is Castaneda's 00:25:47.339 --> 00:25:50.359 system of movements and practices. And Ragner 00:25:50.359 --> 00:25:52.680 apparently has maintained close ties to that 00:25:52.680 --> 00:25:55.400 group, even following Castaneda's death in 1998. 00:25:55.799 --> 00:25:57.839 We should probably pause and just briefly explain 00:25:57.839 --> 00:26:00.420 tensegrity for those who don't know. It's a system 00:26:00.420 --> 00:26:03.619 of specific movements, postures. What's the intended 00:26:03.619 --> 00:26:06.410 purpose? Well, as Castaneda developed and taught 00:26:06.410 --> 00:26:10.109 it, it's intended to promote well -being, shift 00:26:10.109 --> 00:26:12.990 consciousness, maybe redistribute energy in the 00:26:12.990 --> 00:26:15.170 body. It's a kind of physical and spiritual discipline 00:26:15.170 --> 00:26:17.769 combined. Okay, so how does that kind of discipline, 00:26:18.109 --> 00:26:21.329 tensegrity, connect back to the Hollywood environment 00:26:21.329 --> 00:26:24.480 that Wagner writes about? so relentlessly they 00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:26.680 seem like polar opposites well think about it 00:26:26.680 --> 00:26:29.660 tensegrity is all about cultivating energy presence 00:26:29.660 --> 00:26:33.059 awareness clearing the sort of spiritual fog 00:26:33.059 --> 00:26:36.339 perhaps and hollywood at least as wagner portrays 00:26:36.339 --> 00:26:39.140 it is the absolute epitome of spiritual exhaustion 00:26:39.140 --> 00:26:42.400 isn't it it's all about artificiality ego illusion 00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:45.539 right so tensegrity could be seen as the ultimate 00:26:45.539 --> 00:26:47.759 practical antidote to the world he critiques 00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:50.819 his characters are constantly seeking these artificial 00:26:50.819 --> 00:26:54.160 fixes cosmetic surgery drugs, fame, validation, 00:26:54.640 --> 00:26:57.559 Wagner himself, through this practice, seems 00:26:57.559 --> 00:27:00.279 to be seeking a real rigorous way out of the 00:27:00.279 --> 00:27:02.319 spiritual trap that he spends all his books detailing. 00:27:02.519 --> 00:27:04.339 That makes a lot of sense. It's his personal 00:27:04.339 --> 00:27:06.920 counter -narrative. And his literary career eventually 00:27:06.920 --> 00:27:08.960 started to cross over overtly into the spiritual 00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:11.279 world, too. Yeah, it did. His novel Memorial, 00:27:11.579 --> 00:27:14.099 which came out around 2006, it was actually positively 00:27:14.099 --> 00:27:17.190 reviewed by a Buddhist monk. In Tricycle magazine. 00:27:17.470 --> 00:27:19.289 Oh, Tricycle, the Buddhist review. That's a major 00:27:19.289 --> 00:27:21.609 publication in contemporary Buddhism. Exactly. 00:27:21.690 --> 00:27:24.329 And that favorable review led to an invitation 00:27:24.329 --> 00:27:26.410 for Wagner to contribute an autobiographical 00:27:26.410 --> 00:27:29.690 essay for Tricycle. And did he? He did. The essay 00:27:29.690 --> 00:27:32.490 was called The Art of Reality. And in it, he 00:27:32.490 --> 00:27:35.190 detailed his experiences with Castaneda, providing 00:27:35.190 --> 00:27:37.589 this really intimate look into his own spiritual 00:27:37.589 --> 00:27:40.710 life and search. And he reflects specifically 00:27:40.710 --> 00:27:43.589 on the simple but not easy lessons of his teacher, 00:27:43.730 --> 00:27:46.640 Castaneda. Simple but not easy. Easy, that phrase. 00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:50.019 It really encapsulates the central tension of 00:27:50.019 --> 00:27:52.140 his entire body of work, doesn't it? It really 00:27:52.140 --> 00:27:55.299 does. It's simple, perhaps, to understand intellectually 00:27:55.299 --> 00:27:58.059 that Hollywood is morally corrupt or spiritually 00:27:58.059 --> 00:28:00.920 bankrupt, but actually escaping its gravitational 00:28:00.920 --> 00:28:03.319 pull, spiritually, professionally, personally, 00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:06.650 that's profoundly difficult. Not easy at all. 00:28:06.829 --> 00:28:08.769 Precisely. And just for, you know, contextual 00:28:08.769 --> 00:28:10.509 completeness, we should probably mention that 00:28:10.509 --> 00:28:13.230 this intensely productive, spiritually questing 00:28:13.230 --> 00:28:15.849 life also included some high profile personal 00:28:15.849 --> 00:28:18.089 relationships along the way. Right. His marriages. 00:28:18.089 --> 00:28:20.269 He was married to the actress Rebecca De Mornay 00:28:20.269 --> 00:28:24.170 for a time. Yeah. From 1986 to 1990, early in 00:28:24.170 --> 00:28:27.059 his burgeoning career. And then later, he was 00:28:27.059 --> 00:28:30.920 married to Laura Peterson from 2009 to 2017. 00:28:31.480 --> 00:28:33.299 Okay. And currently? He's currently partnered 00:28:33.299 --> 00:28:36.000 with the actress Jamie Rose. So, you know, these 00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:38.140 relationships took place while he was deeply 00:28:38.140 --> 00:28:40.579 entrenched in the very industry he was simultaneously 00:28:40.579 --> 00:28:44.579 observing, satirizing, and maybe trying to spiritually 00:28:44.579 --> 00:28:47.000 transcend. More duality. Always the duality. 00:28:47.019 --> 00:28:49.140 And despite all the conflicts, the censorship 00:28:49.140 --> 00:28:51.900 battles, the spiritual questing, the radical 00:28:51.900 --> 00:28:55.119 professional choices, his literary... productivity 00:28:55.119 --> 00:28:57.480 hasn't flagged at all, has it? He seems incredibly 00:28:57.480 --> 00:28:59.519 sustained and focused as a cultural observer. 00:28:59.700 --> 00:29:02.319 Remarkably so. His output continues right into 00:29:02.319 --> 00:29:05.319 the current decade. In 2022, he released Orar, 00:29:05.559 --> 00:29:08.200 American Master, the oral biography of Roger 00:29:08.200 --> 00:29:10.839 Orr. It's a continuation of his satirical style, 00:29:11.059 --> 00:29:13.759 examining the figure of a powerful, maybe monstrous 00:29:13.759 --> 00:29:15.700 literary figure through an oral history format. 00:29:15.839 --> 00:29:17.680 Sounds very Wagner. And he has upcoming work, 00:29:17.720 --> 00:29:19.859 too. Yeah. Two significant upcoming works mentioned 00:29:19.859 --> 00:29:21.839 in the sources. One is The Met Gala and Tales 00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:24.160 of Saints and Seekers. Two novellas expected 00:29:24.160 --> 00:29:26.700 in 2024. I mean, that title alone. Perfectly 00:29:26.700 --> 00:29:29.359 summarizes the duality again. The Met Gala and 00:29:29.359 --> 00:29:31.539 Saints and Seekers. Exactly. And then another 00:29:31.539 --> 00:29:34.220 novel simply titled Amputation is apparently 00:29:34.220 --> 00:29:37.500 scheduled for 2025. So he's constantly exploring 00:29:37.500 --> 00:29:47.109 that space. So when you look back at it all, 00:29:47.210 --> 00:29:49.369 Bruce Wagner's career is really this incredible 00:29:49.369 --> 00:29:51.529 testament to the power of the observer, isn't 00:29:51.529 --> 00:29:53.920 it? Yeah. He started as the ultimate outsider 00:29:53.920 --> 00:29:56.500 insider, the Beverly Hills High School dropout 00:29:56.500 --> 00:29:59.119 who literally drove the elite around town. Yeah, 00:29:59.180 --> 00:30:01.680 giving him this completely unparalleled ground 00:30:01.680 --> 00:30:04.200 level education in the mechanics of modern wealth, 00:30:04.359 --> 00:30:07.839 vanity, desperation, all of it. And he weaponized 00:30:07.839 --> 00:30:09.839 that perspective, didn't he? He evolved into 00:30:09.839 --> 00:30:12.380 the ultimate insider who then ruthlessly, brilliantly 00:30:12.380 --> 00:30:14.720 satirizes the very industry he works within. 00:30:14.980 --> 00:30:17.720 But crucially, he always imbues that critique 00:30:17.720 --> 00:30:20.960 with this profound spiritual yearning. You feel 00:30:20.960 --> 00:30:23.250 it underneath. the satire, drawn from figures 00:30:23.250 --> 00:30:25.890 like Carlos Castaneda, maybe the tenets of Buddhism, 00:30:26.150 --> 00:30:29.630 he just embodies that tension. The tension between 00:30:29.630 --> 00:30:32.630 the profane, glittering, often ugly surface of 00:30:32.630 --> 00:30:35.069 modern Los Angeles and the transcendent search 00:30:35.069 --> 00:30:38.309 for some kind of enduring meaning. And understanding 00:30:38.309 --> 00:30:42.750 Wagner's unique perspective, this Hollywood spiritual 00:30:42.750 --> 00:30:45.970 observer, as you call him, it really offers you, 00:30:45.990 --> 00:30:49.369 the listener, a far richer, much more nuanced 00:30:49.369 --> 00:30:52.220 view of celebrity culture. than you get from 00:30:52.220 --> 00:30:54.900 typical tabloid fare or superficial commentary. 00:30:55.220 --> 00:30:57.400 Definitely. He's not just reporting on the chaos 00:30:57.400 --> 00:30:59.779 or mocking the excess. He seems to be suggesting 00:30:59.779 --> 00:31:01.819 maybe that the material decay and the almost 00:31:01.819 --> 00:31:04.700 apocalyptic nature of modern fame, maybe that's 00:31:04.700 --> 00:31:06.500 actually a necessary catalyst, something that 00:31:06.500 --> 00:31:09.059 pushes people or could push people toward deeper, 00:31:09.119 --> 00:31:11.579 more difficult spiritual truths. That's a fascinating 00:31:11.579 --> 00:31:13.660 idea, that the darkness is part of the path. 00:31:13.900 --> 00:31:16.160 Perhaps. And ultimately, his decision regarding 00:31:16.160 --> 00:31:18.180 the Marvel Universe, origin stories, that whole 00:31:18.180 --> 00:31:20.720 censorship fight, it provides such a power... 00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:22.779 powerful lesson about integrity, about artistic 00:31:22.779 --> 00:31:26.859 freedom. Yeah, choosing to release his work for 00:31:26.859 --> 00:31:29.720 free into the public domain rather than compromise 00:31:29.720 --> 00:31:32.019 the specific language he believed was essential 00:31:32.019 --> 00:31:34.900 to his satirical art. Specifically, language 00:31:34.900 --> 00:31:37.980 used by a character about herself. A character's 00:31:37.980 --> 00:31:40.460 voice. So we really want to leave you with this 00:31:40.460 --> 00:31:42.619 final, maybe provocative thought to mull over. 00:31:43.259 --> 00:31:46.119 What is the ultimate cost of artistic freedom 00:31:46.119 --> 00:31:49.500 in our contemporary world? When an artist like 00:31:49.500 --> 00:31:52.000 Wagner decides that the integrity of a single 00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:54.720 word used specifically to establish a fictional 00:31:54.720 --> 00:31:57.599 character's voice and perspective is actually 00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:00.599 worth more than the entire potential profit derived 00:32:00.599 --> 00:32:03.470 from that book. What does that really tell us 00:32:03.470 --> 00:32:05.589 about the value we place on truth or artistic 00:32:05.589 --> 00:32:07.849 truth versus the constraints of the market or 00:32:07.849 --> 00:32:10.269 maybe the fear of offense? It's a huge question. 00:32:10.329 --> 00:32:12.450 And it resonates far beyond just the borders 00:32:12.450 --> 00:32:14.490 of Beverly Hills or the publishing world, doesn't 00:32:14.490 --> 00:32:17.470 it? It touches on free speech, art, commerce, 00:32:17.670 --> 00:32:21.049 sensitivity, everything. A really difficult question, 00:32:21.170 --> 00:32:23.809 as you say. But one we are maybe fortunate that 00:32:23.809 --> 00:32:25.970 Wagner was willing to pose so dramatically, so 00:32:25.970 --> 00:32:28.190 publicly with his actions. Indeed, he forced 00:32:28.190 --> 00:32:30.500 the issue. Well, that's the deep dive for today. 00:32:30.619 --> 00:32:33.140 We really hope you enjoyed exploring the complex, 00:32:33.420 --> 00:32:36.160 contradictory, and utterly fascinating universe 00:32:36.160 --> 00:32:37.200 of Bruce Wagner.