WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.819 Welcome to the Deep Dive. Great to be here. So 00:00:02.819 --> 00:00:05.940 when we talk about Seattle rock, you know, grunge, 00:00:06.040 --> 00:00:09.160 certain names just pop up immediately. Nirvana, 00:00:09.259 --> 00:00:12.380 obviously. Pearl Jam, Soundgarden. Yep. The Giants. 00:00:12.380 --> 00:00:15.220 Exactly. The ones who filled stadiums took that 00:00:15.220 --> 00:00:19.679 sound absolutely global. But the real raw blueprint, 00:00:19.960 --> 00:00:22.379 the sound that kind of defined the whole vibe, 00:00:22.500 --> 00:00:25.519 especially for sub pop, often it really comes 00:00:25.519 --> 00:00:29.379 down to one guy. Mark Arm. Yeah, Mark Arm. He's 00:00:29.379 --> 00:00:31.980 like central, but maybe not always the first 00:00:31.980 --> 00:00:34.219 name people think of. Right. He's this fascinating 00:00:34.219 --> 00:00:36.219 paradox. I mean, the original voice of all that, 00:00:36.259 --> 00:00:39.079 you know, cynicism and noise. Beautiful noise, 00:00:39.179 --> 00:00:41.140 I should say. Oh, yeah. But his actual life, 00:00:41.179 --> 00:00:43.899 it's this picture of like amazing consistency, 00:00:44.320 --> 00:00:46.500 stability. That's wild when you put it side by 00:00:46.500 --> 00:00:49.200 side. Totally. We're talking about the Mudhoney 00:00:49.200 --> 00:00:53.380 frontman. Arguably the band that most defined 00:00:53.380 --> 00:00:56.600 that core grunge sound without hitting that massive 00:00:56.600 --> 00:00:58.799 stadium level. They are the sound in many ways. 00:00:58.960 --> 00:01:00.820 And he's kept this really practical connection 00:01:00.820 --> 00:01:03.060 to the whole scene, the scene he basically invented 00:01:03.060 --> 00:01:05.799 or co -invented. So that's what we're doing today. 00:01:05.859 --> 00:01:09.260 This is the mission. Get past the big headlines, 00:01:09.519 --> 00:01:12.379 the celebrity stuff. Right. And really uncover 00:01:12.379 --> 00:01:15.579 the full picture of Mark Arm. You know, the musician, 00:01:15.700 --> 00:01:20.060 the scene guy, the professional. How does it 00:01:20.060 --> 00:01:22.420 all fit? Yeah. Pull out those surprising bits 00:01:22.420 --> 00:01:24.700 that really show his unique place. It's a story 00:01:24.700 --> 00:01:29.459 about maybe integrity, longevity over just like 00:01:29.459 --> 00:01:32.140 sheer fame. And we should probably just hit those 00:01:32.140 --> 00:01:33.780 contradictions right away. Yeah. Because they 00:01:33.780 --> 00:01:36.019 really make you stop and think. Okay. Yeah. Let's 00:01:36.019 --> 00:01:40.219 do it. So this guy, architect of that feedback 00:01:40.219 --> 00:01:42.980 drenched, almost out of control sound voice of 00:01:42.980 --> 00:01:45.620 the quote, quote, slacker generation. Yeah. He 00:01:45.620 --> 00:01:47.750 was a Boy Scout. The Boy Scout. Yep. That's fact 00:01:47.750 --> 00:01:49.650 one. Went to Bellevue Christian High School. 00:01:49.790 --> 00:01:51.730 Mm -hmm. Got an English degree from the University 00:01:51.730 --> 00:01:54.209 of Washington. Emphasis on creative writing. 00:01:54.370 --> 00:01:56.489 That English degree. That one always gets me. 00:01:56.530 --> 00:01:58.409 It adds such a different layer. And the kicker. 00:01:58.950 --> 00:02:01.569 Today, right now, he's the warehouse manager 00:02:01.569 --> 00:02:04.489 for Sub Pop Records. Warehouse manager. I mean, 00:02:04.510 --> 00:02:06.989 come on. That's incredible. Let's unpack that 00:02:06.989 --> 00:02:10.710 first one. The front man. The icon. Managing 00:02:10.710 --> 00:02:13.069 shipping and receiving for the label he defined. 00:02:13.560 --> 00:02:15.900 It's the ultimate, like, anti -rock star move, 00:02:16.060 --> 00:02:17.979 isn't it? Totally. Which brings us right into 00:02:17.979 --> 00:02:21.759 our first section. The foundations. His education. 00:02:22.060 --> 00:02:25.219 The day jobs. How they didn't just, like, pay 00:02:25.219 --> 00:02:27.319 the bills, but maybe shaped his whole approach 00:02:27.319 --> 00:02:30.699 to music. Okay, so basics first. Mark Arm, born 00:02:30.699 --> 00:02:33.740 Mark Thomas McLaughlin. February 21st, 1962. 00:02:34.219 --> 00:02:36.000 And where he was born is kind of interesting, 00:02:36.099 --> 00:02:38.400 too. Vandenberg Air Force Base in California. 00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:41.159 Right, a military base. For the guy who kind 00:02:41.159 --> 00:02:44.340 of became this voice of, well, anti -authoritarian 00:02:44.340 --> 00:02:46.759 rock, it's a neat little wrinkle. He grew up 00:02:46.759 --> 00:02:48.439 mostly in Kirkland, Washington, though, near 00:02:48.439 --> 00:02:50.789 Seattle. And that Kirkland upbringing, it just 00:02:50.789 --> 00:02:54.849 keeps throwing up these hints of unexpected normalcy. 00:02:54.889 --> 00:02:56.729 Like the Boy Scouts thing we mentioned. Exactly, 00:02:56.870 --> 00:02:59.490 Boy Scouts. Then Bellevue Christian High School. 00:02:59.669 --> 00:03:01.530 You know, if you're looking for that standard 00:03:01.530 --> 00:03:03.710 troubled artist backstory that gets slept onto 00:03:03.710 --> 00:03:05.650 grunge. That doesn't fit. It really doesn't. 00:03:05.650 --> 00:03:08.289 It points towards, well, stability. Structure, 00:03:08.349 --> 00:03:10.969 maybe. But I think the academic side is maybe 00:03:10.969 --> 00:03:13.930 the most revealing for this deep dive. Graduating 00:03:13.930 --> 00:03:16.550 in 85 from the University of Washington. English 00:03:16.550 --> 00:03:19.599 degree. Yeah. Creative writing focus. Yeah, that's 00:03:19.599 --> 00:03:21.520 huge because the assumption is often that this 00:03:21.520 --> 00:03:24.400 sound, this grunge thing, it came from just raw, 00:03:24.639 --> 00:03:28.159 like unthinking rage. Primal scream territory. 00:03:28.219 --> 00:03:30.800 Right. But in English degree, specializing in 00:03:30.800 --> 00:03:32.759 creative writing. That's just something much 00:03:32.759 --> 00:03:36.639 more, well, intellectual. Yeah. A deliberate 00:03:36.639 --> 00:03:38.740 approach to communicating. Exactly. It implies 00:03:38.740 --> 00:03:42.000 his creative process. Even the noise is way more 00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:43.879 intentional than maybe the sound suggests. You 00:03:43.879 --> 00:03:46.039 know, you need to understand language, structure, 00:03:46.300 --> 00:03:49.280 metaphor, theme, all that stuff for creative 00:03:49.280 --> 00:03:52.479 writing. So the chaos in Marhani's music, maybe 00:03:52.479 --> 00:03:55.120 it's not just chaos. It's like an educated choice, 00:03:55.400 --> 00:03:57.840 crafted chaos. The lyrics definitely back that 00:03:57.840 --> 00:04:00.960 up. They're cynical, dark, funny. But they feel 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:02.960 written. They are absolutely crafted. It's the 00:04:02.960 --> 00:04:04.860 work of someone who gets how language works, 00:04:05.080 --> 00:04:07.580 even if he's delivering it in a scream over a 00:04:07.580 --> 00:04:09.900 wall of feedback. That intellectual grounding 00:04:09.900 --> 00:04:12.539 makes the cynicism hit harder. You know, it's 00:04:12.539 --> 00:04:14.900 not just whining. It's informed. OK, so you've 00:04:14.900 --> 00:04:17.079 got this this icon, this influential musician 00:04:17.079 --> 00:04:21.180 touring, shaping a genre. Yeah. And somehow balancing 00:04:21.180 --> 00:04:23.759 it with this incredibly stable professional life, 00:04:23.800 --> 00:04:26.790 that dual identity. That's really where he differs 00:04:26.790 --> 00:04:29.790 from so many contemporaries who were all in on 00:04:29.790 --> 00:04:32.009 the rock star dream, right? Oh, absolutely. Having 00:04:32.009 --> 00:04:35.470 a steady non -music job for someone at his level, 00:04:35.490 --> 00:04:38.029 especially coming through that whole 90s major 00:04:38.029 --> 00:04:40.550 label feeding frenzy, it's almost unheard of. 00:04:40.610 --> 00:04:43.410 And the job now managing the sub -pop warehouse. 00:04:43.670 --> 00:04:47.529 The symbolism there is just... Wow. The guy who 00:04:47.529 --> 00:04:49.769 was the sound of early sub -pop, who helped build 00:04:49.769 --> 00:04:52.470 the label's artistic rep? Is now literally managing 00:04:52.470 --> 00:04:54.769 the physical stuff. The boxes, the shipping, 00:04:54.910 --> 00:04:56.769 the logistics. Oh, but it's backbone. It's this 00:04:56.769 --> 00:04:58.949 perfect full circle thing. And it wasn't his 00:04:58.949 --> 00:05:01.389 only real job either. Before that, he worked 00:05:01.389 --> 00:05:03.410 at Fantagraphics Books. Right. Fantagraphics, 00:05:03.490 --> 00:05:06.230 another hugely important piece of Seattle's independent 00:05:06.230 --> 00:05:09.110 culture. Totally. Known for, you know, pushing 00:05:09.110 --> 00:05:11.689 boundaries, publishing challenging stuff, Connick's 00:05:11.689 --> 00:05:14.889 graphic novels. So, connecting the dots. His 00:05:14.889 --> 00:05:17.949 professional life seems focused on, like, infrastructure, 00:05:18.110 --> 00:05:21.209 supporting these independent, high -integrity 00:05:21.209 --> 00:05:24.009 operations, fantagraphics, sub -pop logistics. 00:05:24.569 --> 00:05:26.529 What does that suggest about his view of music? 00:05:26.910 --> 00:05:29.889 Well, maybe that he sees it less as a path to 00:05:29.889 --> 00:05:32.709 personal fame and more as part of a, like, a 00:05:32.709 --> 00:05:35.430 community, a functioning scene, while others 00:05:35.430 --> 00:05:38.050 saw grunge as their ticket to, I don't know, 00:05:38.129 --> 00:05:40.170 L .A. mansions or whatever. He stayed focused 00:05:40.170 --> 00:05:43.629 on Seattle, on sub -pop. It seems like it. Dedicated 00:05:43.629 --> 00:05:45.769 to the label's identity, making sure that whole 00:05:45.769 --> 00:05:48.350 Pacific Northwest creative thing stays, well, 00:05:48.449 --> 00:05:51.029 viable. His professional work literally keeps 00:05:51.029 --> 00:05:52.569 the indie machine running. In the warehouse, 00:05:52.790 --> 00:05:55.009 yeah. And maybe figuratively, too, in the studio, 00:05:55.129 --> 00:05:58.029 by sticking to his guns artistically. That's 00:05:58.029 --> 00:05:59.889 a great way to put it. For him, maybe the integrity 00:05:59.889 --> 00:06:01.889 of the scene, the ability to keep making music 00:06:01.889 --> 00:06:04.310 he wanted to make within that scene, that was 00:06:04.310 --> 00:06:07.410 more valuable than the sort of flashy but maybe 00:06:07.410 --> 00:06:10.610 fleeting major label thing. That authentic DIY 00:06:10.610 --> 00:06:14.040 attitude. Grounded right there, the PNW. It explains 00:06:14.040 --> 00:06:17.860 why his early bands were so uncompromising. Okay, 00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:20.660 so knowing about that consistency later makes 00:06:20.660 --> 00:06:24.680 the sheer chaos of his early bands even more 00:06:24.680 --> 00:06:27.319 fun to look at. Right. Let's go back, way back. 00:06:27.620 --> 00:06:30.459 Mark Arm's story really is the story of Seattle 00:06:30.459 --> 00:06:33.720 punk. He jumped in super early, 1980, still in 00:06:33.720 --> 00:06:36.180 high school. Yeah, with Mr. Epp and the calculations. 00:06:36.420 --> 00:06:38.759 Mr. Epp, what a name. This is before grunge was 00:06:38.759 --> 00:06:42.250 even a word. This is like... Primal Seattle punk, 00:06:42.490 --> 00:06:45.470 noisy, definitely anti -polished. Who was in 00:06:45.470 --> 00:06:49.110 that band? Initially, singer Joe Smitty, Peter 00:06:49.110 --> 00:06:50.689 Wick, and they just went for absurdity right 00:06:50.689 --> 00:06:53.069 away. Their first recorded song, The Pigeon in 00:06:53.069 --> 00:06:55.930 the Fountain Bed. Okay. Yeah. That sounds conceptual. 00:06:55.930 --> 00:06:58.189 It sounds like performance art mixed with maybe 00:06:58.189 --> 00:07:01.290 some really basic garage rock. That mix of the 00:07:01.290 --> 00:07:04.430 intellectual or arty with the super lo -fi that's 00:07:04.430 --> 00:07:06.670 kind of arm signature from the start. And they 00:07:06.670 --> 00:07:09.050 apparently achieved a certain kind of notoriety. 00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:12.480 Audacious failure, maybe? Yeah, this is legendary. 00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:16.060 Steven Rabo, a local radio DJ, he flat out called 00:07:16.060 --> 00:07:19.259 them the worst band in the world. Wow. Not just 00:07:19.259 --> 00:07:21.560 bad, but the worst. In the world. I mean, in 00:07:21.560 --> 00:07:23.240 punk rock history, that's practically a medal 00:07:23.240 --> 00:07:25.379 of honor, right? Absolutely. You don't get that 00:07:25.379 --> 00:07:28.839 title unless you're seriously messing with people's 00:07:28.839 --> 00:07:31.060 expectations of what music should be. It set 00:07:31.060 --> 00:07:34.100 the tone right there. Uncompromising, challenging. 00:07:34.819 --> 00:07:38.060 That attitude carried straight through. So they 00:07:38.060 --> 00:07:39.839 were playing shows, putting out stuff. Yeah. 00:07:39.899 --> 00:07:42.399 First show in 81, opening for Student Nurse. 00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:45.139 Their early output was super underground. They 00:07:45.139 --> 00:07:48.839 did a seven -inch EP, Mohawk Man, in 82. But 00:07:48.839 --> 00:07:50.839 the key partnership, the one that lasts, gets 00:07:50.839 --> 00:07:54.839 formed here, right? Yes. 1983. Steve Turner joins 00:07:54.839 --> 00:07:57.379 on second guitar, arm and Turner. That's the 00:07:57.379 --> 00:07:59.779 core chemical reaction for pretty much everything 00:07:59.779 --> 00:08:01.879 that follows. And what do they do then? Well, 00:08:01.899 --> 00:08:04.850 83, they put out this cassette. And the notes 00:08:04.850 --> 00:08:06.829 that came with it actually called it a combination 00:08:06.829 --> 00:08:09.490 of art and hardcore. Art and hardcore. Okay. 00:08:09.529 --> 00:08:12.069 So again, not just songs. It was experimental 00:08:12.069 --> 00:08:15.839 sound. meant to provoke confuse. And there's 00:08:15.839 --> 00:08:17.639 that amazing description of what was actually 00:08:17.639 --> 00:08:20.180 on the tape. Oh yeah, from the Revenge Against 00:08:20.180 --> 00:08:23.100 Boredom zine in 84. It listed the contents. Get 00:08:23.100 --> 00:08:25.300 this, 45 or so minutes of pillow fights, jokes, 00:08:25.439 --> 00:08:27.560 some songs, preachers garbled talking. Pillow 00:08:27.560 --> 00:08:29.980 fights. Pillow fights. And the review ended with 00:08:29.980 --> 00:08:32.740 this killer line. And you get to find out what 00:08:32.740 --> 00:08:34.809 you get if you give up your personality. Just 00:08:34.809 --> 00:08:37.450 pure punk philosophy. It's like rock music actively 00:08:37.450 --> 00:08:39.769 trying to annoy you or make you question everything. 00:08:39.970 --> 00:08:42.389 Exactly. Performance art pretending to be a band 00:08:42.389 --> 00:08:45.090 or maybe a band rejecting the whole idea of being 00:08:45.090 --> 00:08:48.590 a band. Arm and Turner clearly valued chaos, 00:08:48.750 --> 00:08:53.730 absurdity, anything but commercial appeal. That's 00:08:53.730 --> 00:08:55.889 foundational for sub pop later. And they were 00:08:55.889 --> 00:08:58.169 playing big local shows, too. Getting noticed. 00:08:58.389 --> 00:09:00.370 They played with Ten Minute Warning and the Dead 00:09:00.370 --> 00:09:02.789 Kennedys at the Eagles Auditorium. That's a big 00:09:02.789 --> 00:09:04.850 deal. Puts them right in the middle of that early 00:09:04.850 --> 00:09:07.590 Seattle hardcore scene, mixing with what would 00:09:07.590 --> 00:09:10.429 become grunge. Okay, so Mr. Epp eventually falls 00:09:10.429 --> 00:09:13.149 apart. Yeah. Brief stint for Armin Turner in 00:09:13.149 --> 00:09:15.309 a band called Limp Richards. Kind of a footnote. 00:09:15.490 --> 00:09:18.490 But then, Green River. Green River. Okay, this 00:09:18.490 --> 00:09:20.789 is it. The cornerstone. Where the local punk 00:09:20.789 --> 00:09:23.870 scene starts to collide with maybe bigger ambitions. 00:09:24.389 --> 00:09:27.289 And that clash basically defines grunge. This 00:09:27.289 --> 00:09:30.169 is the band that directly leads to, well, a lot. 00:09:30.269 --> 00:09:32.789 Oh, yeah. Armand Turner. They team up with Jeff 00:09:32.789 --> 00:09:35.169 Amott and Stone Gassard, Future Pearl Jam and 00:09:35.169 --> 00:09:38.450 drummer Alex Vincent. So you've got the seeds 00:09:38.450 --> 00:09:42.929 of two massive but very different Seattle sounds 00:09:42.929 --> 00:09:45.809 right there in one band. Precisely. Green River. 00:09:46.149 --> 00:09:47.929 Historically, they're always named as one of 00:09:47.929 --> 00:09:50.389 the absolute first grunge bands. Right alongside 00:09:50.389 --> 00:09:53.769 Malfunction, Soundgarden, Skin Yard. The U -Men, 00:09:53.990 --> 00:09:56.610 they were pioneers. And they put out music. They 00:09:56.610 --> 00:09:58.629 were active. Yeah, for a short -lived band, they 00:09:58.629 --> 00:10:01.850 were productive. Two EPs, Come On Down and Dry 00:10:01.850 --> 00:10:05.110 as a Bone, and one full album, Rehab Doll. But 00:10:05.110 --> 00:10:07.779 these records... They weren't a unified front, 00:10:07.860 --> 00:10:10.000 were they? There was tension. Huge tension. This 00:10:10.000 --> 00:10:12.580 is where the big split in grunge philosophy really 00:10:12.580 --> 00:10:15.360 starts. Inside Green River, you had a major disagreement 00:10:15.360 --> 00:10:18.240 about direction, commercial potential. Aviman 00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:20.440 and Gassard leaning more towards arena rock, 00:10:20.580 --> 00:10:23.159 major labels. Yeah, something maybe more polished, 00:10:23.240 --> 00:10:25.059 more broadly appealing. They saw the potential 00:10:25.059 --> 00:10:27.639 for real success. While Armin Turner, coming 00:10:27.639 --> 00:10:29.519 from worst band in the world. They wanted to 00:10:29.519 --> 00:10:32.779 keep it raw, keep it punk, uncompromising. That 00:10:32.779 --> 00:10:35.039 abrasive edge was the whole point for them. So 00:10:35.039 --> 00:10:38.259 when the band split. It wasn't just because Turner 00:10:38.259 --> 00:10:40.419 left for college temporarily. Well, that was 00:10:40.419 --> 00:10:42.960 to trigger, maybe. But the account suggests that 00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:44.659 the frustration over the band's direction was 00:10:44.659 --> 00:10:47.059 the real reason. It was philosophical. A fork 00:10:47.059 --> 00:10:49.639 in the road. Totally. Ammon and Gassard went 00:10:49.639 --> 00:10:52.279 off, formed Mother Love Bone, then eventually 00:10:52.279 --> 00:10:56.580 Pearl Jam, pursued that rock star path very successfully. 00:10:56.940 --> 00:10:59.299 And Armin Turner. They basically doubled down 00:10:59.299 --> 00:11:02.460 on the raw, noisy integrity, which led them straight 00:11:02.460 --> 00:11:06.159 to... Not honey. And cemented Arm's reputation 00:11:06.159 --> 00:11:08.299 as the purist, the guy who wouldn't sell out. 00:11:08.419 --> 00:11:11.200 Yeah. While the others went global, Arm and Turner, 00:11:11.399 --> 00:11:14.399 after Turner came back, they even briefly revived 00:11:14.399 --> 00:11:17.379 a Green Riverside project, the Throne Ups. Another 00:11:17.379 --> 00:11:19.419 great name. Before launching the Maid of It. 00:11:19.480 --> 00:11:22.480 Okay, 1988, Arm and Turner get the final pieces. 00:11:22.980 --> 00:11:26.299 Dan Peters on drums, powerhouse. Incredible drummer. 00:11:26.600 --> 00:11:28.879 And Matt Lucan on bass, fresh from the Melvins. 00:11:29.399 --> 00:11:31.820 Bringing that heavy, sludgy low end. That's the 00:11:31.820 --> 00:11:33.940 classic lineup. They renamed themselves Mudhoney. 00:11:34.080 --> 00:11:37.720 And boom, the world gets the undiluted Seattle 00:11:37.720 --> 00:11:41.200 sound. Mudhoney really felt like the purest expression 00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:43.759 of what Green River maybe hinted at, but without 00:11:43.759 --> 00:11:46.299 any compromise. Exactly. No polish. Heavier, 00:11:46.539 --> 00:11:49.240 way more distortion, feedback absolutely everywhere. 00:11:49.519 --> 00:11:52.100 They instantly became the flagship band for Sub 00:11:52.100 --> 00:11:54.279 Pop, which was just getting going. And Sub Pop 00:11:54.279 --> 00:11:56.460 puts out their first single that same year, 88. 00:11:56.679 --> 00:12:00.610 And it's just... The anthem. Touch me, I'm sick. 00:12:00.889 --> 00:12:02.750 You really can't overstate that track. It was 00:12:02.750 --> 00:12:05.250 like a bomb going off. A declaration of war on 00:12:05.250 --> 00:12:08.230 slick 80s rock, maybe. Totally. The sound itself, 00:12:08.389 --> 00:12:10.909 that grinding, out -of -control guitar noise 00:12:10.909 --> 00:12:13.889 Arm got, it was a deliberate rejection of musical 00:12:13.889 --> 00:12:16.669 prettiness or technical skill in the traditional 00:12:16.669 --> 00:12:20.549 sense. Raw energy. Lo -fi production. Loud. Ugly. 00:12:21.070 --> 00:12:23.529 but catchy irresistibly catchy that's the genius 00:12:23.529 --> 00:12:25.809 it was the blueprint dictated the whole aesthetic 00:12:25.809 --> 00:12:28.129 for the pacific northwest scene for years they 00:12:28.129 --> 00:12:30.649 followed that up fast lots of touring the super 00:12:30.649 --> 00:12:33.809 fuzz big muff ep also legendary right and the 00:12:33.809 --> 00:12:36.429 self -titled album in 89 they were the band sub 00:12:36.429 --> 00:12:38.669 hop built its early buzz on but that success 00:12:38.669 --> 00:12:40.769 created its own problems especially with the 00:12:40.769 --> 00:12:43.429 uh financial realities of indie labels yeah tell 00:12:43.429 --> 00:12:45.230 me about their next album every good boy deserves 00:12:45.230 --> 00:12:49.720 fudge The timing was weird, right? It came out 00:12:49.720 --> 00:12:51.620 just before Nirvana's Nevermind blew everything 00:12:51.620 --> 00:12:54.379 up. The timing was brutal. But the sources say 00:12:54.379 --> 00:12:56.639 the delay wasn't creative, the album was ready, 00:12:56.820 --> 00:12:59.299 the problem was sub -pop itself. What happened? 00:12:59.720 --> 00:13:01.940 Despite all the hype Mudhoney had generated for 00:13:01.940 --> 00:13:04.179 them internationally, Sub Pop was apparently 00:13:04.179 --> 00:13:07.759 on the verge of bankruptcy. Literally. They were 00:13:07.759 --> 00:13:10.200 scrambling just to pay Mudhoney, their biggest 00:13:10.200 --> 00:13:13.879 band, let alone fund a proper global release 00:13:13.879 --> 00:13:17.240 and promotion. That really highlights the chaos 00:13:17.240 --> 00:13:19.940 and knife -edge existence of the indie scene 00:13:19.940 --> 00:13:22.289 they were championing. Absolutely. here's the 00:13:22.289 --> 00:13:24.570 band defining the sound and the label can barely 00:13:24.570 --> 00:13:27.429 keep the lights on the album finally drops july 00:13:27.429 --> 00:13:30.350 91 just two months before nevermind changes well 00:13:30.350 --> 00:13:33.889 everything so 1992 nirvana's massive the whole 00:13:33.889 --> 00:13:36.870 world is looking at seattle and mudhoney like 00:13:36.870 --> 00:13:39.129 a lot of bands then they jumped to a major label 00:13:39.129 --> 00:13:42.049 reprise records trying to catch that wave you 00:13:42.049 --> 00:13:46.309 assume but their major label debut piece of cake 00:13:47.559 --> 00:13:50.139 It didn't explode like Pearl Jam or Soundgarden 00:13:50.139 --> 00:13:53.139 did. It was seen as a commercial failure, relatively 00:13:53.139 --> 00:13:55.639 speaking. Yeah, and this is where Arms' refusal 00:13:55.639 --> 00:13:57.899 to compromise really bumps up against the big 00:13:57.899 --> 00:14:00.419 leagues. The album just didn't sell huge numbers. 00:14:00.500 --> 00:14:03.600 Why not? Too raw for the majors. Genre fatigue 00:14:03.600 --> 00:14:06.639 setting in already. Probably a bit of both. The 00:14:06.639 --> 00:14:09.440 labels wanted the next Nirvana, something palatable 00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:13.000 for arenas. Mudhoney was still delivering, well, 00:14:13.080 --> 00:14:17.559 Mudhoney noise, feedback. And wasn't there some 00:14:17.559 --> 00:14:19.659 pretty honest reflection from the band itself 00:14:19.659 --> 00:14:21.820 about that record? Oh, yeah. Steve Turner gave 00:14:21.820 --> 00:14:23.720 this really candid quote about it. He said the 00:14:23.720 --> 00:14:26.500 title, Piece of Kick, was kind of sarcastic about 00:14:26.500 --> 00:14:29.279 how easily things had come to them. But then 00:14:29.279 --> 00:14:31.480 he admitted the songs were kind of half -baked 00:14:31.480 --> 00:14:34.860 and Mark wasn't at his best. Wow. That's brutally 00:14:34.860 --> 00:14:37.500 honest. It suggests that the major label pressure, 00:14:37.720 --> 00:14:39.740 the environment, maybe it did impact the art. 00:14:39.960 --> 00:14:42.480 Artistic fatigue, maybe realizing that chasing 00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:44.820 that commercial dragon did compromise things, 00:14:44.940 --> 00:14:46.659 just like they worried about back in Green River. 00:14:46.820 --> 00:14:48.799 So that major label experiment was kind of a 00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:51.440 reality check. It seems like it solidified their 00:14:51.440 --> 00:14:53.799 identity. OK, we're not going to be Pearl Jam. 00:14:53.980 --> 00:14:57.600 We're Mudhoney. We're the authentic, maybe unsellable 00:14:57.600 --> 00:15:00.620 core of this thing. We'd rather be real than 00:15:00.620 --> 00:15:02.960 huge. And the most amazing thing about Mudhoney, 00:15:03.039 --> 00:15:06.700 they just kept going. They never stopped. Incredible 00:15:06.700 --> 00:15:09.679 longevity. One of the very, very few original 00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:12.620 grunge bands still putting out records consistently. 00:15:12.840 --> 00:15:15.580 It's genuine resilience. Just look at the output 00:15:15.580 --> 00:15:17.840 since then. since we've become translucent in 00:15:17.840 --> 00:15:21.980 2002 under a billion suns 2005 the lucky ones 00:15:21.980 --> 00:15:24.980 2008 vanishing point in 2013 digital garbage 00:15:24.980 --> 00:15:28.299 in 2018 and plastic eternity just last year 2023 00:15:28.299 --> 00:15:31.340 this band is still a going concern four decades 00:15:31.340 --> 00:15:34.100 in and the crucial part where have all those 00:15:34.100 --> 00:15:36.460 albums come out every single one since that reprise 00:15:36.460 --> 00:15:39.899 detour right back home on sub pop that says everything 00:15:39.899 --> 00:15:42.750 doesn't it yeah loyalty creative control rejecting 00:15:42.750 --> 00:15:45.090 the major label machine after trying it they 00:15:45.090 --> 00:15:47.090 went back to where they belong so mud honey is 00:15:47.090 --> 00:15:49.710 the main thing obviously but mark arm's fingerprints 00:15:49.710 --> 00:15:52.289 are all over the place collaborations side projects 00:15:52.289 --> 00:15:54.529 super groups right he wasn't just in his own 00:15:54.529 --> 00:15:56.830 bubble he's like this constant presence in that 00:15:56.830 --> 00:15:59.789 whole garage punk world yeah totally he did a 00:15:59.789 --> 00:16:02.409 bit of solo stuff early on like the freewheeling 00:16:02.409 --> 00:16:05.509 mark arm single in 1990 for real and nice dylan 00:16:05.509 --> 00:16:07.610 nod there right and he fronted a band called 00:16:07.610 --> 00:16:10.610 blood loss for a while singer and guitarist but 00:16:10.730 --> 00:16:13.629 The supergroups are where you really see his 00:16:13.629 --> 00:16:15.649 connections, right? His commitment to that whole 00:16:15.649 --> 00:16:19.110 raw rock history. Oh, definitely. Take the Monkey 00:16:19.110 --> 00:16:22.090 Wrench, Seattle Supergroup. The lineup is just 00:16:22.090 --> 00:16:24.570 nuts. Who's in it? Arm and Turner, of course. 00:16:24.690 --> 00:16:27.750 Plus, Tim Kerr from legendary Texas punk bands 00:16:27.750 --> 00:16:31.649 like Big Boys, Poison 13, Lord High Fixers. Wow, 00:16:31.769 --> 00:16:35.470 okay. Serious punk cred. Tom Price from Gas Huffer, 00:16:35.509 --> 00:16:37.789 another great Seattle band, and Martin Bland, 00:16:37.889 --> 00:16:39.750 who was also in Bloodlust. This is connecting 00:16:39.750 --> 00:16:43.330 Seattle with, like, Texas punk roots. Exactly. 00:16:43.590 --> 00:16:46.509 It shows Arm sees his music as part of this longer 00:16:46.509 --> 00:16:49.490 history, this lineage of garage and punk. The 00:16:49.490 --> 00:16:51.490 Monkey Wrench wasn't some throwaway joke band. 00:16:51.610 --> 00:16:54.250 They made serious, respected garage rock records. 00:16:54.610 --> 00:16:56.269 And he wasn't just sticking to the indie world 00:16:56.269 --> 00:16:58.649 for collabs, either. He popped up on major records, 00:16:58.789 --> 00:17:01.659 too. Yeah, high -profile guest spots. The most 00:17:01.659 --> 00:17:03.759 famous is probably singing on Alice in Chains' 00:17:03.899 --> 00:17:06.819 EP, Sap, back in 92. That's interesting. Alice 00:17:06.819 --> 00:17:09.039 in Chains were huge commercially then. Right. 00:17:09.160 --> 00:17:11.440 But they still wanted Mark Arm on their record. 00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:13.859 It shows the respect he had. Even among the bands 00:17:13.859 --> 00:17:16.640 hitting platinum, he was like the stamp of authenticity. 00:17:17.079 --> 00:17:19.000 Okay. What else? Any other big collaborations? 00:17:19.480 --> 00:17:22.799 Well, this one is wild. 1998, a project called 00:17:22.799 --> 00:17:26.619 Wild Rats. Wild Rats. With two Ts. Yep. For the 00:17:26.619 --> 00:17:29.039 soundtrack of the movie Velvet Goldmine, the 00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:32.509 glam rock film. Okay. So, different vibe. Kind 00:17:32.509 --> 00:17:35.769 of, but listen to this lineup. Mark Arm, Ron 00:17:35.769 --> 00:17:39.750 Ashton from the Stooges. Oh, okay. Guitar legend? 00:17:40.009 --> 00:17:43.049 Mike Watt from Minutemen, Firehose, Thurston 00:17:43.049 --> 00:17:45.369 Moore, and Steve Shelley from Sonic Youth. That's 00:17:45.369 --> 00:17:47.069 insane. That's like a punk and noise rock hall 00:17:47.069 --> 00:17:49.690 of fame right there. Seriously. Arm playing alongside 00:17:49.690 --> 00:17:51.950 Ron Ashton. That's connecting directly with the 00:17:51.950 --> 00:17:54.789 absolute legends who inspired him. And that Stooges 00:17:54.789 --> 00:17:57.099 connection kept going, didn't it? Yeah, he sang 00:17:57.099 --> 00:18:00.380 lead vocals on a cover of The Stooges' I Need 00:18:00.380 --> 00:18:03.339 Somebody for the band Nebula on their 99 album 00:18:03.339 --> 00:18:05.339 To the Center. He's constantly paying tribute 00:18:05.339 --> 00:18:08.140 to that raw proto -punk sound. Seems like he's 00:18:08.140 --> 00:18:09.940 got a real reverence for the history. Absolutely. 00:18:10.539 --> 00:18:13.339 Which leads to maybe the ultimate tribute project, 00:18:13.599 --> 00:18:16.220 The New Strickenings in 2000. The New Strickenings? 00:18:16.220 --> 00:18:19.460 What was that? This was huge. Arm, Turner, Peters 00:18:19.460 --> 00:18:22.779 from Mudhoney, plus Scott McAfee from Young Fresh 00:18:22.779 --> 00:18:25.420 Fellows and REM Tom Price again, Bill Henderson. 00:18:25.539 --> 00:18:27.920 Another stacked lineup. What did they do? They 00:18:27.920 --> 00:18:30.519 recorded an entire album called The New Original 00:18:30.519 --> 00:18:34.259 Sonic Sound, 16 cover songs, all by one band. 00:18:34.650 --> 00:18:38.049 The Sonics, the legendary, incredibly influential 00:18:38.049 --> 00:18:41.509 mid -60s garage band from Seattle. Ah, bringing 00:18:41.509 --> 00:18:43.930 it back home. Exactly. This goes back to that 00:18:43.930 --> 00:18:45.970 intellectual foundation. Arm isn't just playing 00:18:45.970 --> 00:18:48.710 garage rock. He's actively documenting and celebrating 00:18:48.710 --> 00:18:51.089 its roots, especially the roots in his own city. 00:18:51.170 --> 00:18:53.789 It's like a history project set to maximum volume. 00:18:54.509 --> 00:18:56.569 That's really cool. Any other standout moments? 00:18:56.769 --> 00:18:58.769 One more that really speaks to his status. In 00:18:58.769 --> 00:19:02.430 2004, he toured with MC5. The actual MC5, yeah. 00:19:02.650 --> 00:19:04.970 Standing in on lead vocals for the late, great 00:19:04.970 --> 00:19:08.589 Rob Tyner. Feeling Rob Tyner's shoes. That's 00:19:08.589 --> 00:19:10.710 massive respect. It's unbelievable, right? The 00:19:10.710 --> 00:19:13.730 voice of Kick Out the Jams? For them to ask Mark 00:19:13.730 --> 00:19:17.109 Arm? It shows they saw him as someone who genuinely 00:19:17.109 --> 00:19:20.450 got that explosive proto -punk energy. He's seen 00:19:20.450 --> 00:19:22.849 as a true carrier of that flame, a generational 00:19:22.849 --> 00:19:24.910 link. Wow. And he still collaborates with his 00:19:24.910 --> 00:19:28.750 peers, too. Oh, yeah. Good example. 2013, he 00:19:28.750 --> 00:19:31.910 sang on a cover of The Scientists Set It On Fire. 00:19:32.490 --> 00:19:34.450 For the Melvins album. Everybody loves sausages. 00:19:34.809 --> 00:19:38.029 Perfect. Melvins, Mudhoney, still connected after 00:19:38.029 --> 00:19:40.349 all these years. It just shows he's always there, 00:19:40.450 --> 00:19:42.369 part of the fabric of that scene, lending his 00:19:42.369 --> 00:19:44.869 voice, supporting his friends. Always community 00:19:44.869 --> 00:19:47.190 over commerce, it seems. Hashtag, hashtag, outro. 00:19:47.549 --> 00:19:49.349 Okay. So when we put all these pieces together, 00:19:49.529 --> 00:19:53.410 what's the big picture? The Boy Scout? The English 00:19:53.410 --> 00:19:55.819 major? The warehouse manager. The worst band 00:19:55.819 --> 00:19:57.960 in the world guy. The Green River co -founder. 00:19:58.079 --> 00:20:00.740 The Mudhoney frontman. The constant collaborator. 00:20:00.839 --> 00:20:02.640 It paints a picture of someone really unique 00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:05.200 in rock history. Someone who seems driven by 00:20:05.200 --> 00:20:08.900 a very clear set of values. Yeah, he's way more 00:20:08.900 --> 00:20:11.000 than just the singer of Mudhoney. He feels like 00:20:11.000 --> 00:20:15.079 this cultural anchor for the whole Seattle scene, 00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:17.400 doesn't he? He really does. The link connecting 00:20:17.400 --> 00:20:20.599 the earliest noisy punk stuff. Like Mr. App. 00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:23.920 Through the whole crazy major label grunge explosion. 00:20:24.180 --> 00:20:26.680 And then crucially, back to the indie spirit. 00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:29.579 Back to sub pop. Yeah. And staying there. He 00:20:29.579 --> 00:20:32.259 really embodies that Pacific Northwest sound. 00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:34.880 The authentic heart of it. By showing that you 00:20:34.880 --> 00:20:38.079 can maintain integrity maybe through just consistency. 00:20:38.279 --> 00:20:40.700 Yeah. Sticking around. Choosing to support the 00:20:40.700 --> 00:20:43.059 scene. Yeah. Even managing the warehouse instead 00:20:43.059 --> 00:20:45.599 of just chasing the spotlight. Exactly. His whole 00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:48.599 career path. The steady job versus the totally 00:20:48.599 --> 00:20:51.779 uncompromising music. It offers this different 00:20:51.779 --> 00:20:54.460 model for how to have a long creative life in 00:20:54.460 --> 00:20:57.099 rock. When it isn't just about hitting hashtag 00:20:57.099 --> 00:20:59.210 one or burning. He picked the scene over the 00:20:59.210 --> 00:21:01.529 stadium, basically. And that choice seems to 00:21:01.529 --> 00:21:04.009 have let him stay creative and true to himself 00:21:04.009 --> 00:21:07.049 for like 40 years without answering to a sales 00:21:07.049 --> 00:21:09.190 report. So here's the question for you listening 00:21:09.190 --> 00:21:11.589 to this deep dive. Considering everything Green 00:21:11.589 --> 00:21:14.670 River, Mudhoney, Sub Pop, all the side projects, 00:21:14.869 --> 00:21:19.759 his actual job. Is Mark Arm's role as this constant, 00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:23.420 maybe overlooked, grounding figure? Both artistically, 00:21:23.460 --> 00:21:26.019 with the music, and professionally with the job. 00:21:26.220 --> 00:21:28.619 Is that maybe more influential on the long -term 00:21:28.619 --> 00:21:30.940 health of that scene than some of the shorter, 00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:34.019 brighter, more famous careers of his peers? It's 00:21:34.019 --> 00:21:36.380 something to think about, right? His influence 00:21:36.380 --> 00:21:39.500 isn't just loud, it's deep and lasting. We definitely 00:21:39.500 --> 00:21:41.960 suggest you go explore the music. Check out The 00:21:41.960 --> 00:21:44.099 Monkey Wrench. Or that new Strychnine's album, 00:21:44.259 --> 00:21:47.059 The Sonics Covers. Hear the history he's so connected 00:21:47.059 --> 00:21:49.660 to. Explore the work of the guy who didn't just 00:21:49.660 --> 00:21:52.400 make the noise, but stuck around to, well, literally 00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:54.539 manage the records. He defined the sound, then 00:21:54.539 --> 00:21:57.000 went back to work. That's something else. That 00:21:57.000 --> 00:21:59.039 is a deep dive. We'll catch you next time.