WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.600 Welcome back to the Deep Dive. Okay, today we're 00:00:03.600 --> 00:00:06.219 tackling something, well, it's huge, a really 00:00:06.219 --> 00:00:07.900 sprawling mission. Yeah, definitely ambitious. 00:00:08.279 --> 00:00:10.000 We're diving into the Guerrero family, specifically 00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:13.339 two key figures, Chavo Garo Sr., later known 00:00:13.339 --> 00:00:16.320 as Chavo Classic, and his son. Chavo Guerrero 00:00:16.320 --> 00:00:20.519 Jr., father and son, two eras, one massive legacy. 00:00:20.780 --> 00:00:22.699 It's a lot because you're crossing decades, right? 00:00:22.859 --> 00:00:25.300 Chavo, he's pure territory wrestling, a regional 00:00:25.300 --> 00:00:28.620 powerhouse. Then Chavo Jr., he's the whole modern 00:00:28.620 --> 00:00:33.719 wrestling story. WCW, WWE, TNA, Lucha Underground, 00:00:34.240 --> 00:00:38.280 even moving into media now. It's a really complaisant 00:00:38.280 --> 00:00:40.380 narrative to weave together. And the achievements 00:00:40.380 --> 00:00:42.859 alone are kind of staggering. Chavo Jr., what, 00:00:42.920 --> 00:00:46.479 12 major championships? title cruiserweight belts 00:00:46.479 --> 00:00:48.880 all over the place yep but seniors record that 00:00:48.880 --> 00:00:52.859 nwa america's heavyweight title 15 times 15 times 00:00:52.859 --> 00:00:56.359 between 79 and 80 that's just wild it says so 00:00:56.359 --> 00:00:57.939 much about that time it really does and we're 00:00:57.939 --> 00:00:59.579 going to track all of it from seniors classic 00:00:59.579 --> 00:01:02.460 nwa style right through juniors um let's call 00:01:02.460 --> 00:01:04.620 them creative character choices oh yeah pepe 00:01:04.620 --> 00:01:07.140 the hobby horse we absolutely have to talk about 00:01:07.140 --> 00:01:09.909 pepe We do. And the whole Kerwin White situation, 00:01:10.189 --> 00:01:12.189 too. Polarizing doesn't even begin to cover it. 00:01:12.290 --> 00:01:14.150 So the goal here for you listening is to get 00:01:14.150 --> 00:01:16.090 the full picture. We're using all the source 00:01:16.090 --> 00:01:17.829 material we've got. We'll follow the timeline, 00:01:17.989 --> 00:01:19.709 the big moments, the times they teamed up, the 00:01:19.709 --> 00:01:22.290 times they fought. And importantly, that shared 00:01:22.290 --> 00:01:25.510 legal history, the lawsuit against WWE. Right. 00:01:25.750 --> 00:01:28.349 Which makes Chavo Jr.'s recent return in 2025 00:01:28.349 --> 00:01:33.310 even more fascinating. So, yeah, legacy gold 00:01:33.310 --> 00:01:37.060 controversy. Let's get into it. Okay, so Chava 00:01:37.060 --> 00:01:40.659 Sr., Salvador Guerrero Lanz, born 1949, Mexico 00:01:40.659 --> 00:01:43.400 City. He's the oldest son of the legendary Gory 00:01:43.400 --> 00:01:45.500 Guerrero. The patriarch of that whole branch, 00:01:45.719 --> 00:01:48.659 older brother to Mando, Hector, and of course, 00:01:48.659 --> 00:01:51.480 Eddie. Big shoes to fill from the start. Definitely. 00:01:51.500 --> 00:01:53.840 He actually started wrestling a bit later, relatively 00:01:53.840 --> 00:01:57.120 speaking, 1977 for his pro debut. Yeah, but he 00:01:57.120 --> 00:01:58.920 hit the ground running, became a real staple 00:01:58.920 --> 00:02:01.640 of the territory system. NWA, Western States, 00:02:01.859 --> 00:02:04.700 California was his main base though, right? NWA 00:02:04.700 --> 00:02:06.920 Hollywood wrestling, big time wrestling. Exactly. 00:02:07.000 --> 00:02:09.460 NWA Hollywood run by Mike LaBelle back then. 00:02:09.539 --> 00:02:12.900 That territory was his. And that's where he had 00:02:12.900 --> 00:02:15.039 probably the defining feud of his early career. 00:02:15.259 --> 00:02:16.960 Against Roddy Piper. Against Roddy Piper, yeah. 00:02:17.060 --> 00:02:19.620 Over the NWA America's Heavyweight Championship. 00:02:19.719 --> 00:02:22.439 Just brutal stuff. Let's dig into that title 00:02:22.439 --> 00:02:26.740 reign again because 15 times in two years, 1979 00:02:26.740 --> 00:02:30.379 to 1980. How does that even work? What does that 00:02:30.379 --> 00:02:33.300 tell us? Well, two big things, really. One, Chavo 00:02:33.300 --> 00:02:35.719 Sr. was obviously a massive draw. You don't swap 00:02:35.719 --> 00:02:37.639 a title that much unless people are paying to 00:02:37.639 --> 00:02:39.840 see that guy win it back. Right. He moved tickets. 00:02:40.060 --> 00:02:42.620 He absolutely did. And two, it shows how the 00:02:42.620 --> 00:02:45.319 territorial system used championships. It wasn't 00:02:45.319 --> 00:02:48.099 like today where reigns are long to build prestige. 00:02:48.520 --> 00:02:51.759 Back then, it was about driving the weekly gate. 00:02:51.919 --> 00:02:54.539 So hot shotting the title wasn't a sign of weakness. 00:02:54.759 --> 00:02:57.469 It was the business model. Pretty much. Especially 00:02:57.469 --> 00:02:59.889 with a hot feud like him and Piper, fans would 00:02:59.889 --> 00:03:02.009 keep coming back thinking, okay, this is the 00:03:02.009 --> 00:03:04.689 week Chavo gets it back. Or Piper retains or 00:03:04.689 --> 00:03:06.969 whatever. Kept the local interest high. Made 00:03:06.969 --> 00:03:09.509 him like the perpetual hero or villain, depending 00:03:09.509 --> 00:03:12.289 on the week, for that specific audience. Precisely. 00:03:12.289 --> 00:03:14.530 And he wasn't just a singles guy. The records 00:03:14.530 --> 00:03:18.389 show 11 NWA America's Tag Team Championship reigns. 00:03:18.729 --> 00:03:21.569 11. Okay, but the crazy part is who he won them 00:03:21.569 --> 00:03:24.039 with. Right. Ten different partners for those 00:03:24.039 --> 00:03:26.460 11 reigns. That's insane adaptability. Shows 00:03:26.460 --> 00:03:28.699 he could work with anyone. Power guys, speed 00:03:28.699 --> 00:03:31.560 guys, technicians. Didn't matter. And naturally, 00:03:31.819 --> 00:03:33.939 family was often involved. He teamed with his 00:03:33.939 --> 00:03:36.199 dad, Gory. He teamed with his brother, Hector. 00:03:36.259 --> 00:03:38.860 So that tag success was baked into the Guerrero 00:03:38.860 --> 00:03:41.419 identity right from the start. As the 80s moved 00:03:41.419 --> 00:03:43.259 on, he didn't just stay in California, though. 00:03:43.280 --> 00:03:45.430 He went international. Yeah, he was doing tours 00:03:45.430 --> 00:03:47.810 in All Japan Pro Wrestling, worked Mid -South 00:03:47.810 --> 00:03:50.669 Wrestling. Pretty versatile. The Japan stuff 00:03:50.669 --> 00:03:52.569 was pretty significant, wasn't it? Feuding with 00:03:52.569 --> 00:03:56.069 Onida. Oh, yeah. At Sushi Onida, they battled 00:03:56.069 --> 00:03:58.909 over the NWA International Junior Heavyweight 00:03:58.909 --> 00:04:01.909 title. Chabo Sr. actually won that twice. Showed 00:04:01.909 --> 00:04:03.930 he could hang with the intense Japanese Junior 00:04:03.930 --> 00:04:07.370 style. He wasn't just original guy. And the family 00:04:07.370 --> 00:04:11.189 thing continued. Later on, back in Mexico, EMLL. 00:04:11.430 --> 00:04:14.750 He teamed with Mando and Eddie. Yep. won the 00:04:14.750 --> 00:04:17.170 wwa trios championship with his younger brothers 00:04:17.170 --> 00:04:20.290 in the 90s they always always found a way back 00:04:20.290 --> 00:04:22.009 to each other even when they were feuding other 00:04:22.009 --> 00:04:24.689 times the guerrero name was just that powerful 00:04:24.689 --> 00:04:28.089 sadly he passed away in 2017 liver cancer right 00:04:28.089 --> 00:04:31.610 he was 68 yeah a huge loss but his legacy it 00:04:31.610 --> 00:04:34.620 kind of lives on beyond just the match results. 00:04:34.800 --> 00:04:37.220 Like the movie appearance, the one and only with 00:04:37.220 --> 00:04:39.600 Henry Winkler. That's right. Back in 78, played 00:04:39.600 --> 00:04:43.120 a wrestler named Indian Joe. But also more recently, 00:04:43.379 --> 00:04:46.740 the Mountain Goats, the indie band. Oh, yeah. 00:04:46.819 --> 00:04:49.120 They did that song, The Legend of Chavo Guerrero. 00:04:49.439 --> 00:04:52.160 Really cool tribute. Super cool. And maybe more 00:04:52.160 --> 00:04:55.319 mainstream, the Netflix show GLOW. Right. They 00:04:55.319 --> 00:04:57.480 dedicated an episode to him, the seventh one, 00:04:57.579 --> 00:04:59.699 I think, because he was such a big part of that 00:04:59.699 --> 00:05:02.560 whole 80s scene. Exactly. It just shows his impact 00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:04.879 went way beyond the squared circle. He was part 00:05:04.879 --> 00:05:07.459 of the cultural fabric of wrestling in that era. 00:05:07.600 --> 00:05:09.699 Okay, so from Chavo Classic, we jump forward. 00:05:09.959 --> 00:05:13.439 Chavo Guerrero Jr., Salvador Guerrero IV, born 00:05:13.439 --> 00:05:16.860 El Paso, Texas, 1970. And like his dad, gets 00:05:16.860 --> 00:05:19.560 into the family business, starts in Mexico May 00:05:19.560 --> 00:05:23.279 94, does the New Japan tour early on too, competed 00:05:23.279 --> 00:05:25.740 in the Best of the Super Juniors in 96. So got 00:05:25.740 --> 00:05:27.779 that crucial international experience before 00:05:27.779 --> 00:05:29.839 hitting the big time in the U .S., which was 00:05:29.839 --> 00:05:33.959 WCW May 1996. Yep. And it wasn't exactly a smooth 00:05:33.959 --> 00:05:37.879 start. His Nitro debut lost Dean Malenko submission. 00:05:38.480 --> 00:05:42.420 Ouch. Malenko. Yeah, tough draw. Right. And then 00:05:42.420 --> 00:05:44.379 pretty soon after, he gets a U .S. title shot 00:05:44.379 --> 00:05:46.860 against Ric Flair on WCW Saturday night. Lost 00:05:46.860 --> 00:05:49.879 again. Submission. So right away, he's positioned 00:05:49.879 --> 00:05:53.500 as this talented but maybe overwhelmed underdog. 00:05:53.639 --> 00:05:56.639 Good heart, but not quite ready. And a lot of 00:05:56.639 --> 00:05:59.199 that early story revolved around his uncle, Eddie. 00:05:59.360 --> 00:06:01.720 Oh, absolutely. That was the core conflict. Chavo 00:06:01.720 --> 00:06:04.019 Jr. was the, you know, the straight arrow nephew. 00:06:04.180 --> 00:06:07.319 Eddie's constantly pushing him. Lie, cheat, steal. 00:06:07.439 --> 00:06:10.079 Come on. And Bridger's resisting. Trying to do 00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:12.259 things the right way. But Eddie's just kept poking 00:06:12.259 --> 00:06:15.439 and prodding. Until Chavo Jr. just snapped. Went 00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:17.800 crazy, as the storyline put it. And that led 00:06:17.800 --> 00:06:20.639 to, well, one of the most memorable, truly bizarre 00:06:20.639 --> 00:06:24.259 gimmicks WCW ever produced. Pepe. We've arrived 00:06:24.259 --> 00:06:26.660 at Pepe. Pepe the hobby horse. Let's just sit 00:06:26.660 --> 00:06:28.680 with that for a second. A top -tier athletic 00:06:28.680 --> 00:06:31.360 talent whose main character trait was being obsessed 00:06:31.360 --> 00:06:34.329 with a wooden horse on a stick. Oh, was. Something 00:06:34.329 --> 00:06:36.329 else. I mean, how did people even react to that 00:06:36.329 --> 00:06:39.029 back then? Honestly, it got over. It was so weird. 00:06:39.069 --> 00:06:41.829 So unexpected. People kind of had to watch. It 00:06:41.829 --> 00:06:46.050 was peak late 90s WCW creative chaos. Pepe wasn't 00:06:46.050 --> 00:06:48.629 just a prop. He was like Junior's tag partner, 00:06:48.790 --> 00:06:50.949 his best friend. And it all tied into his feud 00:06:50.949 --> 00:06:54.649 with Norman Smiley, which led to the incident. 00:06:54.790 --> 00:06:57.290 The wood chipper incident. Yes. Norman Smiley, 00:06:57.290 --> 00:06:59.870 the heel, takes Pepe. Don't say it. And feeds 00:06:59.870 --> 00:07:02.889 him into a wood chipper. On television. Oh, my 00:07:02.889 --> 00:07:05.269 God. That actually happened. That was the end 00:07:05.269 --> 00:07:08.490 of Pepe. Brutal. And kind of hilarious in a really 00:07:08.490 --> 00:07:10.449 dark way. It really was. It perfectly capped 00:07:10.449 --> 00:07:12.709 off that whole insane gimmick. But the family 00:07:12.709 --> 00:07:14.970 drama wasn't over, even without Pepe. Right. 00:07:15.069 --> 00:07:17.829 Batch of the Beach 98. Hair versus hair match. 00:07:18.269 --> 00:07:20.389 Chavo Jr. versus Eddie. And Chavo Jr. actually 00:07:20.389 --> 00:07:22.589 wins, beats his uncle, gets the big emotional 00:07:22.589 --> 00:07:24.689 victory. Should be the end of it, right? You'd 00:07:24.689 --> 00:07:27.529 think. But this is Chavo Jr. in WCW. What happened 00:07:27.529 --> 00:07:29.750 next? Immediately after, he has this meaningless 00:07:29.750 --> 00:07:32.209 tune -up match against Stevie Ray. Loses on, 00:07:32.269 --> 00:07:34.709 like, a fluke pin. Seriously? Yep. And Chavo 00:07:34.709 --> 00:07:36.889 Jr., completely frustrated, just grabs the clippers 00:07:36.889 --> 00:07:40.790 and shaves his own head. Nope. He won the hair 00:07:40.790 --> 00:07:43.629 match. Didn't matter. He was so mad, so eccentric, 00:07:43.750 --> 00:07:46.250 he just did it anyway. Total self -destruction. 00:07:46.250 --> 00:07:48.730 It was kind of... brilliant in a weird way, defined 00:07:48.730 --> 00:07:51.550 his character perfectly. Okay, so after the psycho 00:07:51.550 --> 00:07:54.209 phase and the self -shaving, where did he go 00:07:54.209 --> 00:07:57.019 from there? He actually landed in a pretty successful 00:07:57.019 --> 00:08:00.279 comedy stable, the Misfits in Action, MIA. Oh, 00:08:00.300 --> 00:08:03.120 yeah. The military gimmick, Hugh Morris was General 00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:06.459 Rection. Right. And Chavo Jr. became Lieutenant 00:08:06.459 --> 00:08:09.420 Loco. It was silly, but it worked for WCW at 00:08:09.420 --> 00:08:10.939 the time. And that's actually where he got his 00:08:10.939 --> 00:08:13.579 first taste of singles gold in WCW. As Lieutenant 00:08:13.579 --> 00:08:16.439 Loco. As Lieutenant Loco, yep. He won the WCW 00:08:16.439 --> 00:08:19.100 Cruiserweight Championship, his first WCW reign, 00:08:19.279 --> 00:08:22.220 beat Daphne in a triangle match that also had 00:08:22.220 --> 00:08:25.860 Disco Inferno. Wow. From Pepe to LT Loco winning 00:08:25.860 --> 00:08:28.699 titles, what a ride. And he won tag gold, too. 00:08:28.839 --> 00:08:32.059 The WCW World Tag Team Championship once with 00:08:32.059 --> 00:08:34.899 Corporal Cajun, who was Lash LaRue, showed he 00:08:34.899 --> 00:08:36.679 could still deliver in the ring, even with the 00:08:36.679 --> 00:08:39.100 goofy gimmicks. So what was his final big act 00:08:39.100 --> 00:08:41.980 in WCW before the company folded? He actually 00:08:41.980 --> 00:08:44.019 won the Cruiserweight title again, beat Mike 00:08:44.019 --> 00:08:46.700 Sanders for it, defended it against Rey Mysterio 00:08:46.700 --> 00:08:48.740 Jr., which was always a great matchup. Always. 00:08:48.840 --> 00:08:52.080 And then he finally lost it to Sugar Shane Helms 00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:55.200 at the Greed pay -per -view in March 2001. And 00:08:55.200 --> 00:08:58.200 that was basically it for Chavo Jr. in WCW. The 00:08:58.200 --> 00:09:00.899 company was bought by WWF just after that. So 00:09:00.899 --> 00:09:04.769 WCW folds. WWF buys it. And Chabot Jr.'s contract 00:09:04.769 --> 00:09:07.230 comes along with the purchase. He shows up in 00:09:07.230 --> 00:09:09.610 WWF initially as part of the alliance. Right. 00:09:09.669 --> 00:09:13.409 The whole WCW ECW invasion angle. He was a heel 00:09:13.409 --> 00:09:15.870 representing the outsiders. Yeah. But that fizzled 00:09:15.870 --> 00:09:17.990 out pretty quick for him. The real game changer 00:09:17.990 --> 00:09:20.409 was getting drafted to SmackDown because that's 00:09:20.409 --> 00:09:22.610 where he reunited with Uncle Eddie. Los Guerreros. 00:09:23.289 --> 00:09:25.570 This time, no conflict. They were on the same 00:09:25.570 --> 00:09:28.649 page. Completely. Chavo Jr. fully bought into 00:09:28.649 --> 00:09:31.409 the family motto now, lie, cheat, and steal. 00:09:31.830 --> 00:09:34.149 And they were so good at it, just natural chemistry, 00:09:34.330 --> 00:09:36.309 brilliant timing. They were supposed to be heels, 00:09:36.409 --> 00:09:38.129 right? Yeah. But the crowd just loved them too 00:09:38.129 --> 00:09:40.649 much. Oh, totally. Their vignettes, the low rider, 00:09:40.870 --> 00:09:43.049 the cheating tactics. It was so entertaining 00:09:43.049 --> 00:09:45.309 that WWE basically had no choice but to turn 00:09:45.309 --> 00:09:47.629 them face. People wanted to cheer for them even 00:09:47.629 --> 00:09:49.730 when they were bending the rules or, you know, 00:09:49.750 --> 00:09:51.909 breaking them outright. And they backed it up 00:09:51.909 --> 00:09:54.889 in the ring. Won the WWE Tag Team titles twice. 00:09:55.330 --> 00:09:58.970 That Survivor Series 2002 match stands out. Huge 00:09:58.970 --> 00:10:01.309 match. Triple threat elimination. Them against 00:10:01.309 --> 00:10:03.669 Kurt Angle and Chris Benoit and Edge and Rey 00:10:03.669 --> 00:10:05.509 Mysterio. The fact doesn't even cover it. And 00:10:05.509 --> 00:10:07.710 Los Guerreros won. That really put them on top 00:10:07.710 --> 00:10:09.990 of the tag division. Won the Wrestling Observer 00:10:09.990 --> 00:10:12.309 Tag Team of the Year that year. Deservedly so. 00:10:12.590 --> 00:10:15.070 It's the Guerreros. Things eventually went south. 00:10:15.470 --> 00:10:17.389 Always seems to happen. Yeah, the sources point 00:10:17.389 --> 00:10:20.190 to jealousy. Eddie was getting massively popular, 00:10:20.230 --> 00:10:22.850 heading towards the WWE Championship. And Chavo 00:10:22.850 --> 00:10:27.929 Jr., well, he resented it. So January 2004, heel 00:10:27.929 --> 00:10:30.570 turn. Attacks Eddie after they lose a tag title 00:10:30.570 --> 00:10:33.629 rematch. Blames him for holding him back. Classic 00:10:33.629 --> 00:10:35.429 wrestling motivation. And then it gets really 00:10:35.429 --> 00:10:37.509 interesting because Chavo Sr. comes back into 00:10:37.509 --> 00:10:40.169 the picture. Chavo Classic arrives. And sides 00:10:40.169 --> 00:10:42.029 with his son against his own brother. Exactly. 00:10:42.049 --> 00:10:44.769 Father and son united against Uncle Eddie. And 00:10:44.769 --> 00:10:47.450 this leads to maybe one of the weirdest Cruiserweight 00:10:47.450 --> 00:10:50.090 title changes ever. Okay, lay it out. No way 00:10:50.090 --> 00:10:53.090 out. 2004, Chavo Jr. beats Rey Mysterio for the 00:10:53.090 --> 00:10:57.009 title. Standard enough. Right. But then, May 00:10:57.009 --> 00:11:00.110 20 at SmackDown. Triple threat match. Chavo Jr. 00:11:00.269 --> 00:11:02.769 defending against Spike Dudley and his own father, 00:11:02.950 --> 00:11:05.169 Chavo Classic. Wait, his dad was in the match. 00:11:05.250 --> 00:11:07.730 Yep. And during the chaos, Chavo Classic somehow 00:11:07.730 --> 00:11:11.000 pins. Chavo Jr., accidentally, supposedly. He 00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:13.240 pinned his own son to win the title. By accident. 00:11:13.580 --> 00:11:16.200 Became the oldest WWE cruiserweight champion 00:11:16.200 --> 00:11:18.980 ever. Just pure Guerrero shenanigans. That is 00:11:18.980 --> 00:11:21.360 amazing. How long did that last? Not long at 00:11:21.360 --> 00:11:24.399 all, actually. Chavo Sr. got fired, like, less 00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:27.179 than a month later, June 2004. Apparently for 00:11:27.179 --> 00:11:29.799 no showing some house shows. So, historic reign, 00:11:29.899 --> 00:11:33.299 but very brief. And a weird ending. So, Chavo 00:11:33.299 --> 00:11:35.600 Jr. loses the title eventually, gets drafted 00:11:35.600 --> 00:11:39.169 to Raw in 2005. And this... This is where things 00:11:39.169 --> 00:11:41.809 take another sharp left turn. Oh, boy. Kerwin 00:11:41.809 --> 00:11:44.210 White. Kerwin White. Okay. Explain this character 00:11:44.210 --> 00:11:46.230 for people who might not remember or maybe wish 00:11:46.230 --> 00:11:49.049 they didn't. Right. So Chavo Jr. completely rejects 00:11:49.049 --> 00:11:51.190 his Hispanic heritage, says he wants to embrace 00:11:51.190 --> 00:11:53.629 the Anglo -American way, dyes his hair blonde, 00:11:53.950 --> 00:11:57.409 wears sweater vests and khakis, drives a golf 00:11:57.409 --> 00:11:59.809 cart to the ring. With a caddy. Played by a very 00:11:59.809 --> 00:12:01.830 young Nick Nemeth. Dolph Ziggler. That's right. 00:12:01.929 --> 00:12:04.610 His catchphrase was, if it's not white, it's 00:12:04.610 --> 00:12:08.169 not right. just aggressively stereotypical middle 00:12:08.169 --> 00:12:11.710 class conservative caricature made derogatory 00:12:11.710 --> 00:12:14.429 comments about other wrestlers, especially Shelton 00:12:14.429 --> 00:12:17.269 Benjamin. It was designed purely to get heat 00:12:17.269 --> 00:12:20.259 through controversy. Maximum heat. And the sources 00:12:20.259 --> 00:12:22.159 say he was willing to push it even further. There's 00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:24.460 that story about his pitch to Vince McMahon. 00:12:24.679 --> 00:12:27.320 Yeah, this is wild. Chavo Jr. himself talked 00:12:27.320 --> 00:12:29.720 about this later. He pitched an idea to Vince 00:12:29.720 --> 00:12:32.620 to get the absolute most heat possible for Kerwin 00:12:32.620 --> 00:12:34.799 White. What was the pitch? He wanted to come 00:12:34.799 --> 00:12:37.480 out dressed as a member of the Ku Klux Klan on 00:12:37.480 --> 00:12:40.659 WWE television. Wow. Seriously, that's incredibly 00:12:40.659 --> 00:12:42.860 extreme. What was his reasoning? He said he wanted 00:12:42.860 --> 00:12:45.159 people to genuinely hate him, to yell we hate 00:12:45.159 --> 00:12:47.720 you at him in public. He saw that level of pure 00:12:47.720 --> 00:12:49.879 hatred as the ultimate sign of success for a 00:12:49.879 --> 00:12:52.220 heel character. He understood that controversy, 00:12:52.539 --> 00:12:55.279 however dangerous, equals attention in wrestling. 00:12:55.519 --> 00:12:58.039 Did Vince go for it? Thankfully, no. According 00:12:58.039 --> 00:13:01.019 to Chavo Jr., Vince rejected it, said it was 00:13:01.019 --> 00:13:03.600 too risque, a little too racist for a network. 00:13:03.919 --> 00:13:05.740 Okay, well, good call there. But the fact that 00:13:05.740 --> 00:13:08.039 it was even pitched tells you a lot about the 00:13:08.039 --> 00:13:10.570 mindset sometimes. Just how far someone might 00:13:10.570 --> 00:13:13.710 be willing to go for heat. Definitely. An intense 00:13:13.710 --> 00:13:16.049 commitment to the gimmick. Maybe to a fault. 00:13:16.250 --> 00:13:18.370 So the Kerwin White experiment, as controversial 00:13:18.370 --> 00:13:21.330 as it was, it didn't actually last that long. 00:13:21.409 --> 00:13:24.049 It was cut short by something far more serious. 00:13:24.389 --> 00:13:26.830 Yeah. Real life tragedy completely changed everything. 00:13:27.009 --> 00:13:30.789 November 13, 2005. The death of Eddie Guerrero. 00:13:30.889 --> 00:13:33.370 And the sources confirmed Chavo Jr. was actually 00:13:33.370 --> 00:13:35.759 the one who... Who found him? He was. They were 00:13:35.759 --> 00:13:38.799 at the same hotel in Minneapolis. Security alerted 00:13:38.799 --> 00:13:41.000 Chavo Jr., and he was the one who went into Eddie's 00:13:41.000 --> 00:13:43.840 room. He was obviously devastated. Appeared at 00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:45.980 the press conference later with Vince. Just a 00:13:45.980 --> 00:13:48.299 horrific situation. And the Kerwin White character, 00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:51.120 gone immediately, right? Instantly dropped. Couldn't 00:13:51.120 --> 00:13:53.039 continue with that after what happened. Chavo 00:13:53.039 --> 00:13:55.299 Jr. came back as himself, wrestling under his 00:13:55.299 --> 00:13:58.299 own name, and turned face, channeling all that 00:13:58.299 --> 00:14:00.120 emotion. He had that really memorable tribute 00:14:00.120 --> 00:14:04.019 match on SmackDown. It's JBL. Yeah, that was 00:14:04.019 --> 00:14:06.539 powerful. Used all of Eddie's signature spots, 00:14:06.820 --> 00:14:09.679 the three amigos, the frog splash. And the finish. 00:14:10.019 --> 00:14:13.399 The chair spot. The ultimate Eddie move. Tossed 00:14:13.399 --> 00:14:15.700 the chair to JBL, dropped down like he'd been 00:14:15.700 --> 00:14:18.720 hit, got JBL disqualified. It was perfect. Playing 00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:21.519 possum, honoring Eddie, not just with the moves, 00:14:21.639 --> 00:14:23.919 but with that Guerrero cunning. Fans really connected 00:14:23.919 --> 00:14:26.379 with that. But the face run didn't last forever. 00:14:26.919 --> 00:14:28.860 The bitterness, maybe the pressure, it came back. 00:14:28.940 --> 00:14:31.019 It did. Heel turn at the Great American Bash 00:14:31.019 --> 00:14:34.220 2006. Cost Ray Mysterio the World Heavyweight 00:14:34.220 --> 00:14:37.139 Championship. Just blasted him with a steel chair. 00:14:37.460 --> 00:14:41.240 Oof. Turning on Ray, Eddie's best friend. That's 00:14:41.240 --> 00:14:44.480 cold. Deeply personal feud. Chavo Jr. accused 00:14:44.480 --> 00:14:47.240 Ray of basically leeching off the Guerrero name 00:14:47.240 --> 00:14:49.639 after Eddie died. It got nasty. And then Vicky 00:14:49.639 --> 00:14:52.169 Guerrero got involved. Eddie's widow. Yeah, she 00:14:52.169 --> 00:14:54.450 sided with Chavo Jr., became his manager, even 00:14:54.450 --> 00:14:56.809 hit Ray with a chair herself. Really amplified 00:14:56.809 --> 00:14:59.330 the family betrayal aspect. How did that feud 00:14:59.330 --> 00:15:02.149 end? It culminated in an I Quit match. Chavo 00:15:02.149 --> 00:15:05.690 Jr. won by targeting Ray's knee, injuring him 00:15:05.690 --> 00:15:07.990 in the storyline. Pretty brutal finish to a very 00:15:07.990 --> 00:15:10.269 personal rivalry. Even as a heel, though, he 00:15:10.269 --> 00:15:13.210 kept finding ways to win gold. Back to the Cruiserweight 00:15:13.210 --> 00:15:17.230 division. Yep. No way out 2007. Won a Cruiserweight 00:15:17.230 --> 00:15:20.230 Open. Pinned Jimmy Wang Yang. That was his fourth 00:15:20.230 --> 00:15:22.950 WWE Cruiserweight title reign. Who did he lose 00:15:22.950 --> 00:15:25.389 it to eventually? Hornswoggle. Hornswoggle. And 00:15:25.389 --> 00:15:27.909 another Cruiserweight Open. Yeah, that happened. 00:15:28.090 --> 00:15:31.269 Okay, then. Around this time, though, 2007, he 00:15:31.269 --> 00:15:33.629 also faced a setback outside the ring. Right. 00:15:33.690 --> 00:15:36.629 He got suspended for violating the WWE wellness 00:15:36.629 --> 00:15:39.049 policy. Had to take time off. Do the sources 00:15:39.049 --> 00:15:42.129 specify what for? They do. It lists some atropine, 00:15:42.190 --> 00:15:45.379 nandrolone, and inatrazol. Received between April 00:15:45.379 --> 00:15:49.620 2005 and May 2006. So growth hormone, an anabolic 00:15:49.620 --> 00:15:52.659 steroid, and an anti -estrogen. That period, 00:15:52.860 --> 00:15:55.940 2005 -2006, was right in that intense post -Eddie 00:15:55.940 --> 00:15:58.440 time frame leading into the heel turn. Exactly. 00:15:58.440 --> 00:16:00.539 It just underlines the physical pressures these 00:16:00.539 --> 00:16:02.960 guys were under, the demands to maintain a certain 00:16:02.960 --> 00:16:05.159 physique, to perform at that level constantly. 00:16:05.399 --> 00:16:07.600 It points to the environment back then. When 00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:09.240 he came back from suspension, where did he end 00:16:09.240 --> 00:16:12.629 up? They sent him to ECW. The relaunched WWE 00:16:12.629 --> 00:16:15.450 version of ECW. And he joined that big heel group, 00:16:15.570 --> 00:16:17.750 La Familia. With Edge and Vickie Guerrero running 00:16:17.750 --> 00:16:20.529 things. Right. And that alliance paid off almost 00:16:20.529 --> 00:16:23.529 immediately. January 2008, he beat CM Punk for 00:16:23.529 --> 00:16:28.029 the ECW championship. Wow. ECW champion. Beat 00:16:28.029 --> 00:16:30.269 Punk for it. That's a huge deal. Absolutely. 00:16:30.309 --> 00:16:34.110 Finally got a world title in WWE. But the reign 00:16:34.110 --> 00:16:36.250 didn't exactly last long. How long are we talking? 00:16:36.350 --> 00:16:38.909 We're talking about WrestleMania XF4. He defended 00:16:38.909 --> 00:16:42.620 the title against Kane. The match lasted 11 seconds? 00:16:42.860 --> 00:16:46.340 11 seconds. King comes out, chokeslam, pin, new 00:16:46.340 --> 00:16:49.240 champion, done. Oh, my God. That has to be one 00:16:49.240 --> 00:16:51.159 of the shortest world title reigns ever, especially 00:16:51.159 --> 00:16:53.960 losing at a WrestleMania like that. Brutal. Talk 00:16:53.960 --> 00:16:56.679 about peaking and crashing hard. Wins it from 00:16:56.679 --> 00:16:59.379 a future legend, loses it in literal seconds 00:16:59.379 --> 00:17:02.379 on the biggest show. That's Travo Jr.'s WWE career 00:17:02.379 --> 00:17:05.000 in a nutshell sometimes, just unpredictable swings. 00:17:05.700 --> 00:17:07.920 So what happened in his last few years there? 00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:10.279 Things seemed to kind of peter out. Yeah, the 00:17:10.279 --> 00:17:12.440 momentum really stalled. The sources point to 00:17:12.440 --> 00:17:15.160 that feud he had with Hornswoggle in 2009. Okay, 00:17:15.259 --> 00:17:17.720 not Hornswoggle again. Yeah. That feud actually 00:17:17.720 --> 00:17:20.660 won the Wrestling Observer Award for Worst Feud 00:17:20.660 --> 00:17:23.539 of the Year and the Gooker Award for the absolute 00:17:23.539 --> 00:17:25.980 worst thing in wrestling that year. Yikes. Hey. 00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:28.500 That's not how you want to be remembered. Definitely 00:17:28.500 --> 00:17:31.380 not. So after that, it wasn't too surprising 00:17:31.380 --> 00:17:34.099 when he asked for his release. Got it in June 00:17:34.099 --> 00:17:37.259 2011, 10 years in WWE, and that was the end of 00:17:37.259 --> 00:17:39.980 that chapter. Okay, so 2011, Chavo Jr. is out 00:17:39.980 --> 00:17:43.000 of WWE. Where does he go next? He hits the global 00:17:43.000 --> 00:17:46.480 circuit. First big stop was TNA, Total Non -Stop 00:17:46.480 --> 00:17:49.240 Action Wrestling. Showed up there in 2012. And 00:17:49.240 --> 00:17:51.839 right away, he's back in his element, tag team 00:17:51.839 --> 00:17:54.410 wrestling. Paired up with Hernandez. Yep, big 00:17:54.410 --> 00:17:56.150 powerhouse Hernandez. And they clicked pretty 00:17:56.150 --> 00:17:58.390 well. Won the TNA World Tag Team Championship 00:17:58.390 --> 00:18:01.589 twice. Chavo just always seemed comfortable and 00:18:01.589 --> 00:18:04.009 effective in a tag setting. So successful run 00:18:04.009 --> 00:18:07.430 in TNA then. Well, it ended in a very TNA way. 00:18:07.509 --> 00:18:09.250 You remember the Feast or Fired match? Well, 00:18:09.250 --> 00:18:11.309 yeah. The briefcase is one has a title shot, 00:18:11.430 --> 00:18:13.130 one has a tag title shot, one has a ping slip. 00:18:13.309 --> 00:18:15.410 Guess which one Chavo Jr. grabbed in December 00:18:15.410 --> 00:18:19.259 2013. No. The pink slip. The pink slip. Got the 00:18:19.259 --> 00:18:21.480 briefcase that fired him from the company. His 00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:23.359 profile vanished from their website pretty quick 00:18:23.359 --> 00:18:25.819 after that. A truly bizarre way to get released. 00:18:25.980 --> 00:18:29.619 Only in TNA. Okay, so after that, Lucha Underground. 00:18:30.140 --> 00:18:33.000 lucha underground which was such a different 00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:36.279 beast very cinematic very story driven he debuted 00:18:36.279 --> 00:18:39.160 there in 2014 and immediately went back to his 00:18:39.160 --> 00:18:41.380 heel roots instantly turned on his own partner 00:18:41.380 --> 00:18:45.480 sexy star attacked the legend blue demon jr just 00:18:45.480 --> 00:18:47.980 established himself as this conniving dangerous 00:18:47.980 --> 00:18:51.559 veteran figure right away it fit the lu vibe 00:18:51.559 --> 00:18:54.420 perfectly did he win gold there too he did won 00:18:54.420 --> 00:18:57.680 the gift of the gods championship in 2016 which 00:18:57.680 --> 00:18:59.359 is kind of like their secondary title guarantee 00:18:59.500 --> 00:19:01.180 he's a shot at the main belt. And didn't his 00:19:01.180 --> 00:19:04.140 dad show up in L .U.? Like, one last appearance. 00:19:04.359 --> 00:19:06.799 He did. Chavo Classic appeared during one of 00:19:06.799 --> 00:19:08.819 Junior's matches against Rey Mysterio. It was 00:19:08.819 --> 00:19:12.380 a Loser Leaves Lucha Underground match. Oh, wow. 00:19:12.650 --> 00:19:15.089 High stakes. Huge stakes. And Sr. interfered, 00:19:15.089 --> 00:19:17.529 tried to help his son win, turned on Ray. Just 00:19:17.529 --> 00:19:19.730 classic Guerrero tactics one last time. So did 00:19:19.730 --> 00:19:22.589 it work? Nope. The authority figure, Dario Cueto, 00:19:22.690 --> 00:19:24.910 saw it happen, restarted the match, and Chavo 00:19:24.910 --> 00:19:27.190 Jr. ended up losing anyway. Had to leave the 00:19:27.190 --> 00:19:29.529 temple. A really dramatic exit with his dad trying 00:19:29.529 --> 00:19:32.650 to save him at the very end. Man. So after LU, 00:19:32.849 --> 00:19:35.390 what was next? He tried promoting, right? Yeah. 00:19:35.450 --> 00:19:39.630 He co -founded Nason Lucha Libre, NLL, with Alberto 00:19:39.630 --> 00:19:44.059 El Patron in 2019. Got on Mexican TV. But it 00:19:44.059 --> 00:19:46.599 didn't last long. No, unfortunately. Sources 00:19:46.599 --> 00:19:49.440 say it folded by January 2020. Tough business. 00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:51.940 Promoting. He popped up in AEW for a bit too, 00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:54.039 didn't he? Managing Andrade. Executive consultant, 00:19:54.279 --> 00:19:56.759 technically. Yeah, brief run there. And managed 00:19:56.759 --> 00:19:59.240 Bandido for a bit in Ring of Honor. Kept his 00:19:59.240 --> 00:20:01.420 name out there. But the really significant shift, 00:20:01.500 --> 00:20:04.519 it seems, was moving behind the camera. Using 00:20:04.519 --> 00:20:06.279 all that wrestling knowledge in a different way. 00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:09.099 Absolutely. This became his major pivot. Fight 00:20:09.099 --> 00:20:11.599 coordinator, wrestling consultant for TV and 00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:14.779 movies. That became his new niche. The GLOW connection 00:20:14.779 --> 00:20:16.799 is pretty cool. Fight coordinator for the Netflix 00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:20.079 show. Yeah, 2017, 2018. And like you said earlier, 00:20:20.220 --> 00:20:23.140 his uncle Mando trained the original GLOW wrestlers 00:20:23.140 --> 00:20:25.220 back in the 80s, so Chavo Jr. working on the 00:20:25.220 --> 00:20:27.720 show about them. Nice little historical echo 00:20:27.720 --> 00:20:29.700 there. Helped make the wrestling look authentic. 00:20:30.079 --> 00:20:32.299 He did Young Rock too, right? Wrestling coordinator 00:20:32.299 --> 00:20:34.880 for the show about the Rock's life. Yep, in 2021. 00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:38.220 And then a really high -profile gig, consultant 00:20:38.220 --> 00:20:40.579 on the movie The Iron Claw. The Von Erich story. 00:20:40.799 --> 00:20:42.980 He also played the Sheik in the film. So he's 00:20:42.980 --> 00:20:45.740 really carved out this space as the go -to wrestling 00:20:45.740 --> 00:20:48.000 guy for Hollywood projects. Plus acting roles 00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:49.599 here and there. Yeah, played a character called 00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:52.019 El Mayor Domo on Grimm, was on an investigation 00:20:52.019 --> 00:20:54.920 discovery show, and other ventures, too. Did 00:20:54.920 --> 00:20:57.319 a comic book series, Chaboguro's Warrior's Creed, 00:20:57.400 --> 00:20:59.880 even has his own craft beer, Los Guerreros beer. 00:21:00.180 --> 00:21:02.819 Gizzy guy. Diversifying beyond just taking bumps. 00:21:02.940 --> 00:21:05.680 Smart move. Looking back at both careers, senior 00:21:05.680 --> 00:21:08.140 and junior, all those matches, all those bumps, 00:21:08.240 --> 00:21:10.220 the travel, you have to think about the physical 00:21:10.220 --> 00:21:12.819 toll. Absolutely. Which brings us to a really 00:21:12.819 --> 00:21:15.519 significant and kind of difficult part of their 00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:18.220 shared story. Yeah. The legal battle against 00:21:18.220 --> 00:21:21.579 WWE. Right. This is crucial. Both Chavo Sr. and 00:21:21.579 --> 00:21:24.140 Chavo Jr. were plaintiffs in that big class action 00:21:24.140 --> 00:21:27.160 lawsuit filed against WWE back in July 2016. 00:21:27.660 --> 00:21:29.460 And the core of that lawsuit was about brain 00:21:29.460 --> 00:21:32.250 injuries, wasn't it? alleging WWE concealed the 00:21:32.250 --> 00:21:35.150 risks of things like CTE. Exactly. Traumatic 00:21:35.150 --> 00:21:37.390 brain injuries, the long -term effects. It was 00:21:37.390 --> 00:21:39.529 a major challenge to the company, involving dozens 00:21:39.529 --> 00:21:42.130 of former wrestlers. And having both father and 00:21:42.130 --> 00:21:45.589 son involved. That really highlights the generational 00:21:45.589 --> 00:21:48.049 aspect of the physical sacrifice in this business. 00:21:48.230 --> 00:21:50.549 Definitely. Filed while Junior was active post 00:21:50.549 --> 00:21:53.849 -WWE and while Senior was still alive, put them 00:21:53.849 --> 00:21:56.210 shoulder to shoulder legally, confronting the 00:21:56.210 --> 00:21:58.789 potential costs of their careers. What was the 00:21:58.789 --> 00:22:02.000 outcome of the lawsuit? Ultimately, it was dismissed 00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:04.779 by a federal judge in September 2018. Didn't 00:22:04.779 --> 00:22:06.460 go forward. But the fact that they were a part 00:22:06.460 --> 00:22:09.019 of it, their names are tied to that fight for 00:22:09.019 --> 00:22:11.140 wrestler welfare. That's part of their legacy 00:22:11.140 --> 00:22:13.380 now. Which makes the latest chapter really, really 00:22:13.380 --> 00:22:15.920 interesting. Because despite that history, despite 00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:20.059 the lawsuit, Chavo Jr. came back to WWE in 2025. 00:22:20.539 --> 00:22:22.900 Yeah, that's the big twist, isn't it? After being 00:22:22.900 --> 00:22:25.460 gone since 2011, after being part of that lawsuit. 00:22:26.059 --> 00:22:28.619 He shows up, first just seen in the crowd at 00:22:28.619 --> 00:22:31.640 a Worlds Collide show in July 2025. First time 00:22:31.640 --> 00:22:34.259 back in any official capacity in over a decade. 00:22:34.440 --> 00:22:36.200 Right, and then it became clear it wasn't just 00:22:36.200 --> 00:22:38.460 a one -off appearance. Reports confirmed he'd 00:22:38.460 --> 00:22:40.779 be working with WWE again. And then he actually 00:22:40.779 --> 00:22:42.980 appeared in the ring later that year, at another 00:22:42.980 --> 00:22:45.920 Worlds Collide. Yep, September 2025 in Las Vegas. 00:22:46.160 --> 00:22:49.190 He came out holding a banner. Honoring Eddie 00:22:49.190 --> 00:22:51.289 Guerrero's work in AAA, the Mexican promotion. 00:22:51.630 --> 00:22:54.329 Wow. So his big return moment wasn't about him. 00:22:54.369 --> 00:22:56.450 It was about honoring Eddie. Seems that way. 00:22:56.509 --> 00:23:00.420 A really powerful, maybe symbolic gesture. Coming 00:23:00.420 --> 00:23:02.319 back to the company where he had so many ups 00:23:02.319 --> 00:23:04.720 and downs, where his family achieved so much, 00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:07.480 and using that platform to highlight his uncle's 00:23:07.480 --> 00:23:10.319 legacy suggests some kind of reconciliation, 00:23:10.460 --> 00:23:13.500 maybe? It's complex. Definitely complex. Yeah. 00:23:13.619 --> 00:23:15.259 So let's just quickly recap the hardware they 00:23:15.259 --> 00:23:16.900 collected between them. It's a mountain of titles. 00:23:17.019 --> 00:23:20.000 It really is. Junior ECW title, six Cruiserweight 00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:22.759 reigns across WWE and WCW, those two WWE tag 00:23:22.759 --> 00:23:25.480 titles with Eddie, two TNA tag titles with Hernandez, 00:23:25.779 --> 00:23:28.650 the LU gift of the gods. And Senior. The foundational 00:23:28.650 --> 00:23:32.190 stuff. 15 NWA America's Heavyweight Reigns. 11 00:23:32.190 --> 00:23:36.109 NWA America's Tag Reigns. Two NWA World Junior 00:23:36.109 --> 00:23:39.170 Heavyweight titles. And that one, a memorable 00:23:39.170 --> 00:23:41.430 WWE Cruiserweight run. It just shows incredible 00:23:41.430 --> 00:23:43.769 range across different styles, different eras, 00:23:43.769 --> 00:23:45.509 different types of promotions. And different 00:23:45.509 --> 00:23:48.069 types of characters, too. From the series competitor 00:23:48.069 --> 00:23:52.359 to... Pepe, to Kerwin White, to the beloved Los 00:23:52.359 --> 00:23:54.380 Guerreros member. They could really do it all. 00:23:54.539 --> 00:23:57.319 That's the Guerrero hallmark, isn't it? Mastery 00:23:57.319 --> 00:24:00.579 of character alongside the in -ring skill. Balancing 00:24:00.579 --> 00:24:02.980 that authentic family connection people loved 00:24:02.980 --> 00:24:05.440 with, you know, sometimes really out there or 00:24:05.440 --> 00:24:08.200 controversial gimmicks. Plus, dealing with the 00:24:08.200 --> 00:24:10.519 physical risks that led to that lawsuit. It's 00:24:10.519 --> 00:24:12.559 a hell of a story. The loyalty to the business, 00:24:12.680 --> 00:24:15.000 the family bond, the willingness to cheat, the 00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:18.180 physical cost, the legal fights, and now, the 00:24:18.180 --> 00:24:21.450 return. Yeah, seeing Chavo Jr. back in WWE after 00:24:21.450 --> 00:24:23.529 everything, especially after being in that lawsuit 00:24:23.529 --> 00:24:26.150 with his father, it really speaks volumes about 00:24:26.150 --> 00:24:28.589 how deep wrestling runs in that family's blood. 00:24:28.789 --> 00:24:30.609 Which leads us right to our final thought for 00:24:30.609 --> 00:24:32.470 you, the listener. Considering everything we've 00:24:32.470 --> 00:24:34.289 talked about, the triumphs, the tragedies, the 00:24:34.289 --> 00:24:36.990 gimmicks, the lawsuit, the return, when a family's 00:24:36.990 --> 00:24:39.509 history is so deeply woven into the fabric of 00:24:39.509 --> 00:24:42.630 pro wrestling, the good and the bad, what does 00:24:42.630 --> 00:24:45.329 it truly take for a legacy to reconcile the financial 00:24:45.329 --> 00:24:48.089 rewards of the past with the physical costs of 00:24:48.089 --> 00:24:50.619 the future? Something to chew on. Thanks for 00:24:50.619 --> 00:24:51.799 joining us for the deep dive.