WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.919 Welcome to the Deep Dive. Today, we're really 00:00:03.919 --> 00:00:06.799 getting into someone foundational, you know, 00:00:06.860 --> 00:00:10.820 Louis Knox Barlow, a key figure really in alternative 00:00:10.820 --> 00:00:13.640 and indie rock history. Foundational is definitely 00:00:13.640 --> 00:00:15.119 the word. I mean, we're not just talking about 00:00:15.119 --> 00:00:16.739 someone who is in a couple of important bands. 00:00:16.920 --> 00:00:20.059 This is someone credited like explicitly with 00:00:20.059 --> 00:00:22.339 helping architect a whole sound. Right. The whole 00:00:22.339 --> 00:00:24.280 lo -fi movement. It's fascinating because it 00:00:24.280 --> 00:00:26.300 seems born directly out of conflict, doesn't 00:00:26.300 --> 00:00:28.519 it? Getting kicked out of one band. Yeah. The 00:00:28.519 --> 00:00:31.280 incredibly loud Dinosaur Jr. And then turning 00:00:31.280 --> 00:00:34.600 inward, creating this super intimate. quiet music 00:00:34.600 --> 00:00:37.460 on cassette tapes. That's kind of the core mission 00:00:37.460 --> 00:00:40.600 here, right? To unpack that journey, that duality. 00:00:40.780 --> 00:00:42.979 Absolutely. The abrasive noise versus the quiet 00:00:42.979 --> 00:00:46.259 confession. And then sort of weirdly, this massive 00:00:46.259 --> 00:00:48.240 commercial hit pops up in the middle of it all. 00:00:48.280 --> 00:00:50.100 It's quite a story. It really is. It shows how 00:00:50.100 --> 00:00:52.140 sometimes getting pushed out is the best thing 00:00:52.140 --> 00:00:53.840 that can happen creatively, maybe. Could be. 00:00:53.899 --> 00:00:57.240 It forces invention. Okay. So the basics, just 00:00:57.240 --> 00:01:01.109 to set the scene. Born July 17, 1966, Dayton, 00:01:01.250 --> 00:01:04.469 Ohio. And the genres he's associated with, it's 00:01:04.469 --> 00:01:06.609 quite a list. You've got alternative rock, indie 00:01:06.609 --> 00:01:08.969 rock, obviously slacker rock. And even hardcore 00:01:08.969 --> 00:01:11.790 punk, going way back. And instruments. He seems 00:01:11.790 --> 00:01:13.879 to play pretty much everything. Vocals, guitar, 00:01:14.219 --> 00:01:16.340 bass are the main ones. But yeah, percussion, 00:01:16.700 --> 00:01:21.159 keyboards, drums, and famously the ukulele later 00:01:21.159 --> 00:01:23.400 on. Ukulele. Okay, we have to circle back to 00:01:23.400 --> 00:01:25.359 that. So let's start at the beginning. Massachusetts, 00:01:25.819 --> 00:01:27.799 right? That's where the music stuff really kicks 00:01:27.799 --> 00:01:30.500 off. That's right. He grew up partly in Jackson, 00:01:30.599 --> 00:01:32.379 Michigan, but then Westfield, Massachusetts. 00:01:32.980 --> 00:01:36.680 And yeah, things started fast and very loud. 00:01:36.840 --> 00:01:39.969 With hardcore punk. Deep wound. Exactly. High 00:01:39.969 --> 00:01:42.469 school band formed with Scott Helland. This is 00:01:42.469 --> 00:01:46.349 1982 to 84, roughly. Prime time for that early 00:01:46.349 --> 00:01:49.689 American hardcore sound. Think speed, aggression. 00:01:49.769 --> 00:01:52.310 And this is where the big relationship starts. 00:01:52.549 --> 00:01:56.159 Jay Mashes. It is. They needed a drummer who 00:01:56.159 --> 00:01:58.900 could play incredibly fast. Found Mashies through 00:01:58.900 --> 00:02:01.739 an ad. The ad specifically said drummer wanted 00:02:01.739 --> 00:02:04.340 to play really fast. Ah, no messing around there. 00:02:04.560 --> 00:02:07.140 None at all. United by speed. But, you know, 00:02:07.159 --> 00:02:09.400 that unity didn't last long within the hardcore 00:02:09.400 --> 00:02:12.800 framework. Deep Wound breaks up in 84. Why? Well, 00:02:12.860 --> 00:02:15.099 the sources point to them feeling kind of hemmed 00:02:15.099 --> 00:02:18.580 in by hardcore, disillusioned with the, I guess, 00:02:18.580 --> 00:02:21.360 the rules, the stylistic constraints of the genre. 00:02:21.539 --> 00:02:23.840 They wanted something more. Okay, so they break 00:02:23.840 --> 00:02:26.280 up Deep Wound. And almost immediately, like the 00:02:26.280 --> 00:02:29.280 same year, Mashie's and Barlow form Dinosaur. 00:02:29.710 --> 00:02:32.090 Which, of course, becomes Dinosaur Jr. pretty 00:02:32.090 --> 00:02:34.490 quickly due to another band called Dinosaur. 00:02:34.610 --> 00:02:37.229 Right. But if they left hardcore to escape constraints, 00:02:37.569 --> 00:02:39.710 didn't they just like walk straight into a different 00:02:39.710 --> 00:02:42.189 kind of problem? The personality clashes? Oh, 00:02:42.250 --> 00:02:44.210 absolutely. That's the defining narrative of 00:02:44.210 --> 00:02:46.050 early Dinosaur Jr., isn't it? The sources are 00:02:46.050 --> 00:02:47.710 really clear on this. Right from the beginning, 00:02:47.770 --> 00:02:50.389 massive personality and creative conflicts between 00:02:50.389 --> 00:02:53.370 Mashies and Barlow. It wasn't just musical differences. 00:02:53.389 --> 00:02:56.620 It was... deeper how did that play out in the 00:02:56.620 --> 00:02:59.439 music itself because those first albums dinosaur 00:02:59.439 --> 00:03:01.879 you're living all over me bug they're incredible 00:03:01.879 --> 00:03:04.800 that sound is so unique it is and the tension 00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:09.340 is in the sound you know mashy's with his walls 00:03:09.340 --> 00:03:12.520 of marshall stacks the super loud fuzzed out 00:03:12.520 --> 00:03:15.539 guitar kind of languid solos but also sheer noise 00:03:15.539 --> 00:03:18.550 almost overwhelming volume Totally. And then 00:03:18.550 --> 00:03:20.590 Barlow's bass playing wasn't just holding down 00:03:20.590 --> 00:03:23.189 the rhythm. He was often playing these really 00:03:23.189 --> 00:03:26.090 melodic lines high up on the neck, almost like 00:03:26.090 --> 00:03:28.610 a second guitar riff. It felt like he was fighting 00:03:28.610 --> 00:03:31.650 to be heard through Mashes' wall of sound. So 00:03:31.650 --> 00:03:34.550 not complimenting, but competing. Competing is 00:03:34.550 --> 00:03:36.650 a good word for it. It was a sonic battle in 00:03:36.650 --> 00:03:39.770 a way. That push and pull, Mashes' kind of detached 00:03:39.770 --> 00:03:42.509 fuzz, and Barlow's more punk, driving urgency. 00:03:42.870 --> 00:03:45.009 That's what made those records so electric. But 00:03:45.009 --> 00:03:47.020 yeah, personally, it was... Apparently brutal. 00:03:47.219 --> 00:03:50.759 Which leads us to the big split after the Bug 00:03:50.759 --> 00:03:54.919 album in 1988 and the tour. He's out. Explicitly 00:03:54.919 --> 00:03:57.879 kicked out. Not mutual. A firing. It's become 00:03:57.879 --> 00:04:00.159 one of those legendary indie rock breakups, really. 00:04:00.300 --> 00:04:02.939 And that moment, that firing, it changes everything, 00:04:03.080 --> 00:04:05.379 doesn't it? Forces his hand. Completely. It's 00:04:05.379 --> 00:04:07.840 the pivot. He's suddenly cut loose from the band 00:04:07.840 --> 00:04:09.780 he co -founded, the loud rock thing he helped 00:04:09.780 --> 00:04:12.780 create. No band, probably not much money. What 00:04:12.780 --> 00:04:15.020 do you do? You go home and record. Exactly. You 00:04:15.020 --> 00:04:17.540 turn inward. And that's where Sebado, which had 00:04:17.540 --> 00:04:19.759 kind of started already, becomes the main focus. 00:04:19.980 --> 00:04:22.139 And that's where lo -fi, as we know it, really 00:04:22.139 --> 00:04:24.740 takes shape. Without that conflict, without that 00:04:24.740 --> 00:04:28.279 firing, the whole landscape of 90s indie music 00:04:28.279 --> 00:04:30.519 could look really different. Okay, so the Dinosaur 00:04:30.519 --> 00:04:34.230 Jr. door slams shut. And the Sebadur door swings 00:04:34.230 --> 00:04:36.970 wide open. He throws himself into this project 00:04:36.970 --> 00:04:39.449 he started earlier with Eric Gaffney. Yeah, and 00:04:39.449 --> 00:04:41.490 it's immediately a reaction, isn't it? A reaction 00:04:41.490 --> 00:04:44.250 against the volume, the band dynamic, maybe even 00:04:44.250 --> 00:04:47.490 the expectations. Sebadur comes the vehicle for 00:04:47.490 --> 00:04:51.850 this new or maybe newly necessary approach. Lofi, 00:04:51.889 --> 00:04:53.550 let's unpack that term a bit. We hear it all 00:04:53.550 --> 00:04:55.490 the time, but what did it actually mean then? 00:04:55.790 --> 00:04:57.910 Well, fundamentally, it meant low fidelity. It 00:04:57.910 --> 00:05:00.209 was about the recording process itself, using 00:05:00.209 --> 00:05:02.829 cheap, accessible gear. Primarily, we're talking 00:05:02.829 --> 00:05:05.189 about four -track cassette recorders, your Tascam 00:05:05.189 --> 00:05:08.670 Porta Studio, maybe a Fostex. So recording literally 00:05:08.670 --> 00:05:11.490 in a bedroom, maybe with one cheap microphone, 00:05:11.610 --> 00:05:14.129 onto a cassette. Pretty much. Straight onto tape. 00:05:14.410 --> 00:05:16.689 You get that tape hiss, the kind of murky sound, 00:05:16.829 --> 00:05:19.329 maybe instruments bleeding into each other, unstable 00:05:19.329 --> 00:05:22.209 mixes. It wasn't always intentional aesthetically 00:05:22.209 --> 00:05:24.649 at first. It was just what was available and 00:05:24.649 --> 00:05:26.649 affordable when you didn't have studio money. 00:05:26.810 --> 00:05:28.689 Which he wouldn't have had right after Dinosaur 00:05:28.689 --> 00:05:31.579 Jr. Exactly. But that necessity quickly became 00:05:31.579 --> 00:05:34.079 the aesthetic, and it perfectly suited Barlow's 00:05:34.079 --> 00:05:36.240 songwriting, which shifted dramatically. Suddenly, 00:05:36.500 --> 00:05:39.319 it's super personal, confessional, vulnerable, 00:05:39.639 --> 00:05:43.360 a huge contrast to Mashie's more oblique lyrics. 00:05:43.620 --> 00:05:45.500 And you had Gaffney's contributions too, right? 00:05:45.759 --> 00:05:47.860 which were different again. Yeah, Gaffney brought 00:05:47.860 --> 00:05:50.839 this sort of experimental, noisy, discordant 00:05:50.839 --> 00:05:54.060 element. Noise collages, really strange sonic 00:05:54.060 --> 00:05:56.540 textures. So Sebadeau wasn't just quiet folk. 00:05:56.600 --> 00:05:59.300 It had this abrasive, weird undercurrent too. 00:05:59.519 --> 00:06:01.439 It sounds like the recording quality matched 00:06:01.439 --> 00:06:05.000 the emotional rawness. No polish, just... Exposed. 00:06:05.000 --> 00:06:08.180 Perfectly put. And the band really solidifies 00:06:08.180 --> 00:06:10.920 its classic form in 1989 when Jason Lowenstein 00:06:10.920 --> 00:06:13.600 joins on bass, also contributing songs. So the 00:06:13.600 --> 00:06:15.759 early releases start defining this sound. The 00:06:15.759 --> 00:06:19.180 Freedman in 89, Weedforeson in 90. Right. Both 00:06:19.180 --> 00:06:22.100 compiling a lot of this early, super raw, home 00:06:22.100 --> 00:06:25.040 -recorded material. Weed Forreston getting a 00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:27.579 proper release on Homestead Records was a big 00:06:27.579 --> 00:06:30.480 step, kind of validating this approach. But the 00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:32.579 landmark album, the one everyone points to, is 00:06:32.579 --> 00:06:35.720 cementing the lo -fi genre and being a cornerstone 00:06:35.720 --> 00:06:39.800 of 90s indie? That's Sebado III in 1991. Sebado 00:06:39.800 --> 00:06:42.639 III, yeah. That title always felt a little bit 00:06:42.639 --> 00:06:44.839 like a subtle nod, didn't it? Like, here's my 00:06:44.839 --> 00:06:47.620 third act, but it's completely different. And 00:06:47.620 --> 00:06:50.279 sonically, worlds apart from Dinosaur Jr.'s bug. 00:06:50.439 --> 00:06:53.720 Oh, absolutely. Sebado III became the platonic 00:06:53.720 --> 00:06:56.220 ideal of lo -fi indie rock. It showed that you 00:06:56.220 --> 00:06:59.000 didn't need a big studio budget. You needed honesty, 00:06:59.199 --> 00:07:02.180 a few good songs, and a four -track. It empowered 00:07:02.180 --> 00:07:04.379 a whole generation of musicians, basically. And 00:07:04.379 --> 00:07:07.240 it showcased all three songwriters, Barlow, Gaffney 00:07:07.240 --> 00:07:09.519 Loewenstein really well, didn't it? Gave it that 00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:12.600 sprawling, diverse feel. Definitely. It's messy, 00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:15.279 but in the best way. Genius, really. And even 00:07:15.279 --> 00:07:17.399 as Sebadeau got bigger, signed to Sub Pop, started 00:07:17.399 --> 00:07:19.660 using studios more in the 90s. He kept something 00:07:19.660 --> 00:07:21.240 else going on the side, didn't he? Something 00:07:21.240 --> 00:07:24.699 even more lo -fi. Yeah, Centrito, which was basically 00:07:24.699 --> 00:07:28.060 just Lou Barlow solo recording at home, even 00:07:28.060 --> 00:07:30.360 less consistent sound quality sometimes than 00:07:30.360 --> 00:07:33.180 the early Sebado stuff, like pure, unfiltered 00:07:33.180 --> 00:07:36.360 musical diary entries. Released on cassette initially. 00:07:36.779 --> 00:07:39.060 Mostly, yeah. There was a series of cassette 00:07:39.060 --> 00:07:41.100 -only albums on Schrimper Records in the early 00:07:41.100 --> 00:07:43.620 90s. Some of that material got compiled later 00:07:43.620 --> 00:07:47.439 onto CDs and vinyl like Winning Losers and another 00:07:47.439 --> 00:07:49.680 collection of home recordings. Essential stuff 00:07:49.680 --> 00:07:51.839 for understanding the core lo -fi aesthetic. 00:07:52.139 --> 00:07:54.459 And this ties into that whole Slacker Rock idea, 00:07:54.639 --> 00:07:57.259 right? That early 90s post -grunge vibe. Totally. 00:07:57.500 --> 00:07:59.500 Sabado and Centrito were kind of the soundtrack 00:07:59.500 --> 00:08:02.579 for that. If grunge was loud alienation, Slacker 00:08:02.579 --> 00:08:05.720 Rock was more about maybe... Embracing the aimlessness, 00:08:05.899 --> 00:08:08.339 the self -deprecation, making a virtue out of 00:08:08.339 --> 00:08:10.300 necessity, recording cheap because you had to. 00:08:10.480 --> 00:08:12.800 Which brings us to the Losercore single. Ah, 00:08:13.100 --> 00:08:17.040 yes. Losercore, released in 1993 on Smells Like 00:08:17.040 --> 00:08:19.360 Records. Steve Shelley from Sonic Youth's label. 00:08:19.480 --> 00:08:21.879 Exactly. Which is interesting in itself, right? 00:08:21.939 --> 00:08:24.699 The ultimate lo -fi anthem, titled Losercore, 00:08:24.839 --> 00:08:26.819 being released by a member of one of the biggest 00:08:26.819 --> 00:08:29.860 alternative bands around. And Barlow apparently 00:08:29.860 --> 00:08:33.000 called it the most finely executed of all my 00:08:33.000 --> 00:08:36.549 releases. How does that work? A lo -fi song being 00:08:36.549 --> 00:08:39.149 finally executed? Seems like a contradiction. 00:08:39.429 --> 00:08:41.309 It does, but I think it speaks to that transition 00:08:41.309 --> 00:08:44.429 point. The song might be lo -fi in spirit and 00:08:44.429 --> 00:08:46.950 sound, but the release itself was handled professionally 00:08:46.950 --> 00:08:50.070 by Shelley. Good mastering, good pressing, good 00:08:50.070 --> 00:08:52.730 packaging. It wasn't just a dubbed cassette anymore. 00:08:52.950 --> 00:08:55.009 Ah, so it's about the presentation elevating 00:08:55.009 --> 00:08:57.309 the raw material. I think so. It's the moment 00:08:57.309 --> 00:08:59.690 lo -fi stops being just a necessity and gets 00:08:59.690 --> 00:09:02.730 treated as a legitimate artistic choice worthy 00:09:02.730 --> 00:09:05.389 of professional presentation. It's taking the 00:09:05.389 --> 00:09:07.309 bedroom tape and putting it on the main stage 00:09:07.309 --> 00:09:09.590 almost. It validated the aesthetic in a different 00:09:09.590 --> 00:09:11.950 way. So he's basically defined his genre, become 00:09:11.950 --> 00:09:14.669 this icon of indie introspection. Yeah. And then 00:09:14.669 --> 00:09:16.450 what happens? He has a massive pop hit. Kind 00:09:16.450 --> 00:09:19.269 of, yeah. It's another sharp turn. The folk implosion, 00:09:19.330 --> 00:09:22.929 or TFI, formed in 94 with John Davis. And this 00:09:22.929 --> 00:09:25.600 sounds different from Sebado. Oh, yeah. If Sebadeau 00:09:25.600 --> 00:09:28.519 was often fractured and acoustic, TFI was smoother, 00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:31.279 moodier, more rhythmic, still had that emotional 00:09:31.279 --> 00:09:33.620 core, but channeled differently, more structured 00:09:33.620 --> 00:09:36.860 maybe. And this leads to Natural One in 1995. 00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:39.960 Yeah. Cop 40 hit, which is wild. Think about 00:09:39.960 --> 00:09:41.940 where he came from musically. It's totally wild. 00:09:42.059 --> 00:09:44.580 And it's inextricably linked to the movie Kids. 00:09:44.820 --> 00:09:46.899 Larry Clark's film. Very controversial, very 00:09:46.899 --> 00:09:48.919 talked about at the time. Hugely. And Natural 00:09:48.919 --> 00:09:51.019 One just captured the film's vibe perfectly. 00:09:51.179 --> 00:09:53.700 That sort of detached, melancholic, slightly 00:09:53.700 --> 00:09:56.419 unnerving. mood. Sonically, it was almost trip 00:09:56.419 --> 00:09:58.860 -hoppy in its beat, very bass -driven, atmospheric, 00:09:59.299 --> 00:10:02.860 worlds away from Dinosaur Jr.'s Noise or Sebado's 00:10:02.860 --> 00:10:04.899 Hiss. It proved he could do polished, right? 00:10:05.419 --> 00:10:07.240 That he wasn't just the lo -fi guy or the loud 00:10:07.240 --> 00:10:09.580 bass guy. Absolutely. It introduced Lou Barlow 00:10:09.580 --> 00:10:11.820 to a massive audience that probably had no idea 00:10:11.820 --> 00:10:14.179 who Sebado or Dinosaur Jr. even were. It's the 00:10:14.179 --> 00:10:16.539 song many people know him for. And TFI continued 00:10:16.539 --> 00:10:19.059 after that. They did. Released the album One 00:10:19.059 --> 00:10:21.899 Part Lullaby in 1999 and then reformed later, 00:10:22.059 --> 00:10:25.679 around 2003, as the new folk implosion with Imad 00:10:25.679 --> 00:10:28.440 Wasif and Sebado's drummer Russ Pollard. So that 00:10:28.440 --> 00:10:30.860 project had legs too. But beyond these main bands, 00:10:30.940 --> 00:10:34.000 he was also just constantly busy, wasn't he? 00:10:34.220 --> 00:10:36.120 collaborating, appearing on other people's record. 00:10:36.279 --> 00:10:38.679 Totally. A true lifer, like you said. Always 00:10:38.679 --> 00:10:41.259 working. You see these threads connecting him 00:10:41.259 --> 00:10:43.539 across the indie scene throughout the late 90s 00:10:43.539 --> 00:10:45.799 and 2000s. Like the instrumental album with Rudy 00:10:45.799 --> 00:10:49.240 Trouvé, Subsonic Six. Yeah, from 2000. Exploring 00:10:49.240 --> 00:10:51.480 different textures, moving away from vocals for 00:10:51.480 --> 00:10:54.240 a bit, shows that restlessness. He also popped 00:10:54.240 --> 00:10:56.600 up in a movie, not just on a soundtrack, playing 00:10:56.600 --> 00:10:59.159 a musician in Laurel Canyon in 2003. And lending 00:10:59.159 --> 00:11:01.899 his voice out too. Yep. Sang on a Sharon Stone 00:11:01.899 --> 00:11:04.679 track in 95, popped up on a couple of production 00:11:04.679 --> 00:11:07.779 club songs in 2003, sang on that sixth song in 00:11:07.779 --> 00:11:09.779 The City in the Rain. He also played bass on 00:11:09.779 --> 00:11:12.299 a Supreme Dicks track back in 93. Right. Strange 00:11:12.299 --> 00:11:15.460 song. It just shows how embedded he was in that 00:11:15.460 --> 00:11:18.059 whole ecosystem, not just focusing on his main 00:11:18.059 --> 00:11:20.580 things, but constantly contributing, playing 00:11:20.580 --> 00:11:23.460 bass here, singing harmonies there, knitting 00:11:23.460 --> 00:11:26.100 the scene together in a way. It paints a picture 00:11:26.100 --> 00:11:28.059 of someone just constantly creating, regardless 00:11:28.059 --> 00:11:30.460 of the banner it's under. Exactly. Exactly. No 00:11:30.460 --> 00:11:33.039 downtime, creatively speaking. Which makes the 00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:35.519 next phase even more interesting. Right. The 00:11:35.519 --> 00:11:39.419 2000s onward. This brings two massive developments. 00:11:39.820 --> 00:11:42.639 His solo career really taking shape with higher 00:11:42.639 --> 00:11:45.960 fidelity and the reunions. The solo albums are 00:11:45.960 --> 00:11:48.120 key because they mark a conscious shift away 00:11:48.120 --> 00:11:50.799 from the mandatory lo -fi thing. He starts releasing 00:11:50.799 --> 00:11:53.240 music under his own name and the production values 00:11:53.240 --> 00:11:56.379 noticeably jump up. Starting with Emo in 2005 00:11:56.379 --> 00:11:59.039 on Merge Records. Yeah. And look who he brings 00:11:59.039 --> 00:12:03.259 in. Jason Lowenstein from Sebado. Russ Pollard, 00:12:03.259 --> 00:12:05.639 who drummed with Sebado and TFI. Even his sister 00:12:05.639 --> 00:12:09.100 Abby sings on it. But the sound. It's cleaner. 00:12:09.279 --> 00:12:11.519 Critics noticed that, right? Oh, yeah. Pitchfork 00:12:11.519 --> 00:12:13.759 called it his most consistent work since the 00:12:13.759 --> 00:12:16.139 Folk Implosion hit and specifically said it sounded 00:12:16.139 --> 00:12:18.440 professional, even the home -recorded bits. It's 00:12:18.440 --> 00:12:20.419 like he's taking the intimacy of Centurido but 00:12:20.419 --> 00:12:23.440 giving it a proper studio sheen. So lo -fi becomes 00:12:23.440 --> 00:12:26.200 a choice. Not a limitation anymore. Precisely. 00:12:26.200 --> 00:12:28.059 And that continues with Goodnight Unknown in 00:12:28.059 --> 00:12:30.139 2009. That one's got Andrew Murdoch producing, 00:12:30.299 --> 00:12:32.559 who's known for heavier stuff. And you get guests 00:12:32.559 --> 00:12:35.200 like Dale Crover from the Melvins and Murph from 00:12:35.200 --> 00:12:39.059 Dinosaur Jr. Ah, the plot thickens. The Dinosaur 00:12:39.059 --> 00:12:41.840 Jr. connection reappears. It does. And he actually 00:12:41.840 --> 00:12:44.419 toured supporting the reunited Dinosaur Jr. for 00:12:44.419 --> 00:12:46.480 that album, backed by his band The Missing Men. 00:12:46.620 --> 00:12:48.879 The streams are starting to cross. Then Brace 00:12:48.879 --> 00:12:51.559 the Wave in 2015. Another step in that direction. 00:12:51.899 --> 00:12:55.039 Even more so in some ways. Released on Joyful 00:12:55.039 --> 00:12:58.539 Noise. Recorded super fast, just six days, but 00:12:58.539 --> 00:13:01.480 here's the kicker. Recorded with Justin Pizziferato. 00:13:01.759 --> 00:13:04.740 Dinosaur Jr.'s sound engineer. Exactly, at Sun 00:13:04.740 --> 00:13:07.440 Lab Studios. He's using the technical team behind 00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:10.340 Dinosaur Jr.'s massive sound to record his own, 00:13:10.360 --> 00:13:13.120 much quieter, solo stuff. That's a deliberate 00:13:13.120 --> 00:13:14.980 choice. And what's the instrumentation on that 00:13:14.980 --> 00:13:17.019 one? I remember something specific. Ukulele. 00:13:17.100 --> 00:13:19.519 It features his ukulele playing quite prominently. 00:13:19.960 --> 00:13:22.230 Again, think about the journey. From hardcore 00:13:22.230 --> 00:13:25.769 punk bass, through Dinosaur Jr.'s roar, Sebado's 00:13:25.769 --> 00:13:28.710 hiss, Folk Implosion's groove, to a professionally 00:13:28.710 --> 00:13:31.610 recorded solo album focused on the ukulele. So 00:13:31.610 --> 00:13:33.470 at the ARC, and didn't that album have some quirky 00:13:33.470 --> 00:13:36.210 release thing too? Oh yeah. The VIP vinyl edition 00:13:36.210 --> 00:13:38.889 came with 100 original Polaroid selfies that 00:13:38.889 --> 00:13:41.389 Barlow took himself. That blend again. Professional 00:13:41.389 --> 00:13:44.049 release, but with this super personal, almost 00:13:44.049 --> 00:13:47.190 Centrito -level intimate touch. Classic Barlow, 00:13:47.289 --> 00:13:49.789 maybe? And he kept going with solo releases after 00:13:49.789 --> 00:13:53.090 that. Yep. The Apocalypse Fetish EP in 2016 and 00:13:53.090 --> 00:13:56.350 the album Reason to Live in 2021. Consistent 00:13:56.350 --> 00:13:59.389 output. But all this solo activity is happening 00:13:59.389 --> 00:14:01.450 alongside the thing nobody thought would ever 00:14:01.450 --> 00:14:05.070 happen. The reunions. Plural. Plural. Starting 00:14:05.070 --> 00:14:07.929 with Dinosaur Jr. And the catalyst was apparently. 00:14:08.409 --> 00:14:10.870 Pretty small, almost accidental. I love it. Back 00:14:10.870 --> 00:14:14.129 in 2004, Sebado was doing this turbo -acoustic 00:14:14.129 --> 00:14:17.669 tour, and at one show, somehow, Jay Mashes ended 00:14:17.669 --> 00:14:20.490 up on stage with Barlow, along with Charlie Nakajima, 00:14:20.610 --> 00:14:22.690 the original Deep Wound singer. Wow, what did 00:14:22.690 --> 00:14:24.750 they play? They played a Deep Wound song, Video 00:14:24.750 --> 00:14:27.149 Prick, just this one -off thing. But apparently, 00:14:27.230 --> 00:14:29.370 that little moment, sharing a stage again after, 00:14:29.429 --> 00:14:32.950 what, 16 years of pretty public bad blood, it 00:14:32.950 --> 00:14:35.450 cracked things open. And led to the full Dinosaur 00:14:35.450 --> 00:14:38.529 Jr. original lineup reunion the next year. Barlow, 00:14:38.669 --> 00:14:42.549 Mashies, Murph. Astonishingly, yes. 2005, they're 00:14:42.549 --> 00:14:44.210 back together. And it wasn't tentative. They 00:14:44.210 --> 00:14:46.889 hit the ground running, playing TV shows, like 00:14:46.889 --> 00:14:49.070 doing The Lung on Craig Ferguson's show, touring 00:14:49.070 --> 00:14:50.830 everywhere. The big question must have been, 00:14:50.929 --> 00:14:54.490 will this last? Or will they just implode again? 00:14:54.730 --> 00:14:56.929 Everyone wondered that. But the amazing thing 00:14:56.929 --> 00:15:00.259 is... It has lasted and it's been incredibly 00:15:00.259 --> 00:15:02.440 productive. They didn't just tour the old stuff. 00:15:02.740 --> 00:15:05.539 They reissued the first three albums. Sure. But 00:15:05.539 --> 00:15:07.820 then they started making new records. Five new 00:15:07.820 --> 00:15:10.100 studio albums since their union. Right. Starting 00:15:10.100 --> 00:15:13.559 with Beyond in 2007. Beyond Farm. I bet on Sky. 00:15:13.799 --> 00:15:15.759 Give a glimpse of what you're not and sweep it 00:15:15.759 --> 00:15:18.570 into space just in 2021. That's a whole second 00:15:18.570 --> 00:15:20.429 career for the band, basically. And how does 00:15:20.429 --> 00:15:23.049 the dynamic seem now musically? Is it still that 00:15:23.049 --> 00:15:26.450 same tension? It's still recognizably them. Mashie's 00:15:26.450 --> 00:15:29.190 is still loud. The solo's still sore. Barlow's 00:15:29.190 --> 00:15:33.009 bass is still driving and melodic. But it feels 00:15:33.009 --> 00:15:35.649 maybe less like a fight now, more like they've 00:15:35.649 --> 00:15:37.690 figured out how to make the friction work for 00:15:37.690 --> 00:15:40.049 the songs rather than against each other. There's 00:15:40.049 --> 00:15:42.110 a maturity there, allowing that core dynamic 00:15:42.110 --> 00:15:44.389 to exist without self -destructing. So they found 00:15:44.389 --> 00:15:47.460 an equilibrium. And then, as if reuniting one 00:15:47.460 --> 00:15:49.879 legendary band wasn't enough. He helps reunite 00:15:49.879 --> 00:15:52.240 Sabato, too. The class who'd line up Barlow, 00:15:52.399 --> 00:15:54.659 Lowenstein, and Gaffney got back together in 00:15:54.659 --> 00:15:56.860 2007, first time they'd played together in 14 00:15:56.860 --> 00:15:59.659 years. And same story. Did that lead to new music 00:15:59.659 --> 00:16:01.870 as well? It did. Took a little longer, but in 00:16:01.870 --> 00:16:05.289 2013, they released an EP, their first new music 00:16:05.289 --> 00:16:08.289 in ages, followed by the album Defend Yourself, 00:16:08.289 --> 00:16:11.389 again on J Full Noise. So now he's juggling Active 00:16:11.389 --> 00:16:14.929 Dinosaur Jr., Active Sebado, and his solo career. 00:16:15.690 --> 00:16:18.789 Remarkable, really. Three distinct musical worlds 00:16:18.789 --> 00:16:21.429 all running concurrently. It's kind of staggering. 00:16:21.590 --> 00:16:23.610 Before we try and wrap our heads around what 00:16:23.610 --> 00:16:25.769 it all means, let's just quickly touch on his 00:16:25.769 --> 00:16:27.870 personal life, grounding all this creative chaos. 00:16:28.269 --> 00:16:31.720 Right. Sources mentioned two... First to Kathleen 00:16:31.720 --> 00:16:34.240 Billis. They have two children, Hendrix and Hannelore. 00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:36.700 Cool names. Yeah. And then he remarried in May 00:16:36.700 --> 00:16:39.759 2015 to Adele Louise Berda, who's a knitwear 00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:41.740 designer. They have a daughter together, Izetta. 00:16:42.019 --> 00:16:43.940 Just gives you a sense of the life happening 00:16:43.940 --> 00:16:46.059 alongside the constant touring and recording. 00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:48.279 Definitely helps paint the full picture. Okay, 00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:50.399 so let's try and synthesize this. What's the 00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:52.820 big takeaway from Lou Barlow's journey? It feels 00:16:52.820 --> 00:16:55.419 like it's all about contradiction. Contradiction 00:16:55.419 --> 00:16:57.919 is a huge part of it, yeah. The conflict driving 00:16:57.919 --> 00:17:01.789 creativity. The guy who pioneers lo -fi out of 00:17:01.789 --> 00:17:05.670 necessity, then has a slick top 40 hit. The intense 00:17:05.670 --> 00:17:08.529 band drama versus the solitary bedroom recording. 00:17:08.609 --> 00:17:11.910 The hardcore punk roots leading to ukulele albums. 00:17:12.150 --> 00:17:14.109 He seems to thrive in those opposing forces. 00:17:14.390 --> 00:17:17.250 Or maybe he needs them. That initial rupture 00:17:17.250 --> 00:17:20.009 with Dinosaur Jr. being fired, it forced him 00:17:20.009 --> 00:17:22.839 to invent. He didn't just join another loud rock 00:17:22.839 --> 00:17:25.619 band. He went the opposite way, used the tools 00:17:25.619 --> 00:17:28.059 he had at 4Track and poured all that hurt and 00:17:28.059 --> 00:17:30.920 vulnerability into it. And in doing so, accidentally 00:17:30.920 --> 00:17:33.640 created a blueprint for a generation. And the 00:17:33.640 --> 00:17:36.039 fact that he can now navigate all those worlds, 00:17:36.119 --> 00:17:38.920 the Dinosaur Jr. noise, the Sebado intimacy, 00:17:39.319 --> 00:17:41.859 the polished solo stuff, it shows he didn't just 00:17:41.859 --> 00:17:43.779 survive the conflict, he learned to harness it, 00:17:43.799 --> 00:17:45.950 didn't he? Completely. He absorbed all of it 00:17:45.950 --> 00:17:48.109 and became this incredibly multifaceted artist, 00:17:48.269 --> 00:17:50.170 comfortable moving between high and low fidelity, 00:17:50.529 --> 00:17:53.809 loud and quiet, band and solo. So wrapping this 00:17:53.809 --> 00:17:56.029 up, the crucial point seems to be that Barlow 00:17:56.029 --> 00:17:59.130 wasn't just in Dinosaur Jr. or in Sebato. When 00:17:59.130 --> 00:18:01.009 he got pushed out of the first, he didn't just 00:18:01.009 --> 00:18:03.329 react, he created something entirely new, his 00:18:03.329 --> 00:18:06.630 own lane. He really did. That act of turning 00:18:06.630 --> 00:18:09.609 inward using the four track, it fundamentally 00:18:09.609 --> 00:18:11.829 altered the possibilities for independent music. 00:18:11.849 --> 00:18:15.000 It told people. You don't need the studio. You 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:17.359 don't need the big budget. Your bedroom, your 00:18:17.359 --> 00:18:19.400 experiences, your cheap recorder, that's enough. 00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:21.940 That's incredibly powerful. And that spirit seems 00:18:21.940 --> 00:18:24.240 to run through everything, even the later, more 00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:26.180 polished stuff, right? That constant movement, 00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:28.619 exploring different sounds. I think so. Whether 00:18:28.619 --> 00:18:30.920 it's the feedback of Dinosaur Jr., the sheen 00:18:30.920 --> 00:18:34.200 of Natural One, or the intimacy of a solo ukulele 00:18:34.200 --> 00:18:37.180 track recorded by a pro engineer, it reflects 00:18:37.180 --> 00:18:40.900 this deep -seated artistic restlessness, a need 00:18:40.900 --> 00:18:43.720 to keep exploring, keep creating. using whatever 00:18:43.720 --> 00:18:46.380 tools fit the moment. Which leads us to a final 00:18:46.380 --> 00:18:48.059 thought, maybe a challenge for you, the listener. 00:18:48.259 --> 00:18:51.079 We've traced this path from lo -fi born of necessity 00:18:51.079 --> 00:18:53.779 through commercial success to high -fidelity 00:18:53.779 --> 00:18:56.579 solo work and back to reunions where he embraces 00:18:56.579 --> 00:18:58.940 both noise and polish. So the question becomes, 00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:02.279 what happens to the idea of lo -fi when the artist 00:19:02.279 --> 00:19:04.579 who arguably defined it gains total creative 00:19:04.579 --> 00:19:07.119 and financial freedom when recording on a four 00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:08.880 -track is no longer the only option but just 00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:12.369 one option? Does it lose something? If lo -fi 00:19:12.369 --> 00:19:14.670 was cured because it had to be that way, born 00:19:14.670 --> 00:19:18.309 from conflict and lack of resources, can it still 00:19:18.309 --> 00:19:21.450 have that same raw power when it's just an aesthetic 00:19:21.450 --> 00:19:24.069 choice made by a successful musician? Or is the 00:19:24.069 --> 00:19:26.490 core intimacy, that vulnerability we heard on 00:19:26.490 --> 00:19:28.690 the Centrito tapes, something that transcends 00:19:28.690 --> 00:19:31.609 the recording quality? Can professional polish 00:19:31.609 --> 00:19:34.230 capture that same feeling? Or does it inevitably 00:19:34.230 --> 00:19:36.849 smooth over the very roughness that made it so 00:19:36.849 --> 00:19:38.809 compelling in the first place? It's something 00:19:38.809 --> 00:19:41.230 to think about. We really encourage you. Go listen. 00:19:41.369 --> 00:19:43.869 Put on a track from 7 to the 3rd, maybe something 00:19:43.869 --> 00:19:47.289 really raw, like Spoiled or God Told Me, and 00:19:47.289 --> 00:19:49.680 then listen to a song from Emo. hear the same 00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:52.900 songwriter, the same emotional honesty, but filtered 00:19:52.900 --> 00:19:54.619 through completely different production approaches. 00:19:54.880 --> 00:19:57.259 That contrast really captures the fascinating, 00:19:57.480 --> 00:20:00.460 complex legacy of Lou Barlow, a journey through 00:20:00.460 --> 00:20:04.000 noise, quiet, success, and back again. Thank 00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:05.619 you for joining us for The Deep Dive. Let's see 00:20:05.619 --> 00:20:06.000 you next time.