WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.100 Welcome to the Deep Dive, your shortcut to, well, 00:00:03.220 --> 00:00:05.540 getting under the skin of the figures and ideas 00:00:05.540 --> 00:00:08.740 shaping our culture. Even the ones, maybe especially 00:00:08.740 --> 00:00:11.800 the ones, who are quietly reshaping things from 00:00:11.800 --> 00:00:14.400 the underground up. And today we're tackling 00:00:14.400 --> 00:00:17.199 a big one. An American cartoonist you might recognize 00:00:17.199 --> 00:00:21.199 the name of, but whose career arc, it's something 00:00:21.199 --> 00:00:23.359 else entirely. We're talking about Peter Bagg. 00:00:23.679 --> 00:00:26.239 That's bag pronounced like the word bag B -A. 00:00:26.399 --> 00:00:29.179 Good to get that right up front because understanding 00:00:29.179 --> 00:00:32.340 this guy, this underground legend, it starts 00:00:32.340 --> 00:00:35.640 there. Yeah. Peter Badge, born 1957. He's really 00:00:35.640 --> 00:00:38.539 famous for this totally unique visual style he 00:00:38.539 --> 00:00:42.820 has. It's like a mix of really dark black humor 00:00:42.820 --> 00:00:45.560 with these incredibly exaggerated, almost frantic 00:00:45.560 --> 00:00:47.780 cartoons. Hyperkinetic, I think, is the word 00:00:47.780 --> 00:00:49.960 often used. Exactly. It looks like pure anxiety. 00:00:50.759 --> 00:00:52.579 slashed onto the page so what we really want 00:00:52.579 --> 00:00:54.799 to dig into today is you know how did he make 00:00:54.799 --> 00:00:57.329 this huge shift How did the guy who basically 00:00:57.329 --> 00:01:00.250 defined the whole grunge era slacker thing, you 00:01:00.250 --> 00:01:02.590 know, the reduced expectations of middle class 00:01:02.590 --> 00:01:04.629 American youth. Right. And stuff like need stuff 00:01:04.629 --> 00:01:07.409 and especially hate. That was his big one. Exactly. 00:01:07.430 --> 00:01:10.109 Hate. How did that guy pivot? How did he become 00:01:10.109 --> 00:01:14.510 this leading voice in really meticulous fact 00:01:14.510 --> 00:01:17.890 based comics? Stuff like journalism, biographies, 00:01:17.890 --> 00:01:20.170 history. It's honestly one of the most fascinating 00:01:20.170 --> 00:01:23.269 turns in like modern comics history. Yeah. His 00:01:23.269 --> 00:01:25.959 early stuff, the fiction. It got him so much 00:01:25.959 --> 00:01:27.840 attention, so much cultural weight. Remember 00:01:27.840 --> 00:01:30.540 those two Harvey Awards back in 91? Yeah, Best 00:01:30.540 --> 00:01:32.760 Cartoonist and Best New Series for Hate. That 00:01:32.760 --> 00:01:35.420 was a big deal. Huge. But now, fast forward to 00:01:35.420 --> 00:01:38.599 the 21st century, the same hand that drew Buddy 00:01:38.599 --> 00:01:43.799 Bradley freaking out. It's drawing detailed science 00:01:43.799 --> 00:01:47.359 histories for Discover Magazine. And doing political 00:01:47.359 --> 00:01:49.939 commentary for reason, writing these big graphic 00:01:49.939 --> 00:01:51.799 novel biographies, it's gone from being this 00:01:51.799 --> 00:01:55.099 voice of a generation to almost like a historical 00:01:55.099 --> 00:01:57.140 documentarian. It's quite the journey. Okay, 00:01:57.219 --> 00:01:59.019 so let's unpack that. Let's go back. Trace the 00:01:59.019 --> 00:02:00.939 roots of that style, that kinetic energy. He 00:02:00.939 --> 00:02:03.739 was born December 11, 1957, Peekskill, New York, 00:02:03.859 --> 00:02:05.879 grew up in the NYC suburbs. And you really have 00:02:05.879 --> 00:02:07.400 to start there with the childhood environment 00:02:07.400 --> 00:02:09.159 to get where that nervous energy comes from. 00:02:09.199 --> 00:02:11.219 Right. What do we know about that? Well, from 00:02:11.219 --> 00:02:14.740 his own words, it sounds complicated, maybe a 00:02:14.740 --> 00:02:17.389 bit chaotic. His dad was military. Yeah. And 00:02:17.389 --> 00:02:20.310 he described his Catholic household having lots 00:02:20.310 --> 00:02:23.789 of drunken fights about money. Wow. Okay. Yeah. 00:02:23.969 --> 00:02:27.169 And he said that whole situation basically made 00:02:27.169 --> 00:02:29.889 them the weirdo outcast kids of the neighborhood. 00:02:30.050 --> 00:02:34.150 That feeling, you know, being the outsider, maybe 00:02:34.150 --> 00:02:36.270 a bit alienated. That seems crucial. It feels 00:02:36.270 --> 00:02:38.490 like the engine behind so many of his characters, 00:02:38.629 --> 00:02:40.849 especially Buddy Bradley. Absolutely. That sort 00:02:40.849 --> 00:02:43.169 of inherent alienation, always feeling like you're 00:02:43.169 --> 00:02:45.949 outside the norm. It drives the psychology. And 00:02:45.949 --> 00:02:48.189 even the little personal details are fascinating, 00:02:48.330 --> 00:02:50.370 aren't they? Like his confirmation name. Oh, 00:02:50.370 --> 00:02:53.129 yeah. Peter Christian Paul Bagg. And the Paul 00:02:53.129 --> 00:02:55.449 part, it's an homage to Paul McCartney. No way. 00:02:55.569 --> 00:02:58.289 Seriously. Yeah. So right there, you've got this 00:02:58.289 --> 00:03:01.310 mix, right? Deep personal fandom, suburban religious 00:03:01.310 --> 00:03:03.610 background, and this undercurrent of needing 00:03:03.610 --> 00:03:07.330 something else. An escape, maybe. That search 00:03:07.330 --> 00:03:10.330 for escape, for definition. It naturally pulls 00:03:10.330 --> 00:03:13.319 him towards the city. New York City, mid -1970s. 00:03:13.319 --> 00:03:15.180 That's where the action was. He dipped his toe 00:03:15.180 --> 00:03:17.360 into formal education, right? School of Visual 00:03:17.360 --> 00:03:22.360 Arts. Briefly. Three semesters in 77. But he 00:03:22.360 --> 00:03:24.460 figured out pretty quick that wasn't his path. 00:03:24.860 --> 00:03:26.919 Dropped out. And went straight into. Straight 00:03:26.919 --> 00:03:28.879 into the thick of it. Yeah. Working on Punk Magazine. 00:03:29.159 --> 00:03:32.280 Yeah. Plunging right into that raw sort of anti 00:03:32.280 --> 00:03:34.479 -establishment scene. And that really sets the 00:03:34.479 --> 00:03:36.599 tone, doesn't it? Working for Punk. It leads 00:03:36.599 --> 00:03:38.819 him right into the comics underground. early 00:03:38.819 --> 00:03:41.680 80s, he's doing what a lot of aspiring artists 00:03:41.680 --> 00:03:43.979 did back then. Yeah, contributing wherever he 00:03:43.979 --> 00:03:46.780 could, underground newspapers, famously, even 00:03:46.780 --> 00:03:50.039 pornography magazines. It was a kind of necessary 00:03:50.039 --> 00:03:52.879 apprenticeship, right? Right. Gritty, but common 00:03:52.879 --> 00:03:55.159 for the time. But this is where the key connection 00:03:55.159 --> 00:03:57.319 happens, the one that really changes things for 00:03:57.319 --> 00:03:59.680 him. Right. He teams up with some old punk magazine 00:03:59.680 --> 00:04:02.780 folks, John Holmstrom included. They put out 00:04:02.780 --> 00:04:06.159 this short -lived comics tabloid. Comical Funnies, 00:04:06.259 --> 00:04:10.560 1980, 81. A real DIY effort. Totally. And here's 00:04:10.560 --> 00:04:14.039 the kicker. Bag just sends copies to Arkrum. 00:04:14.180 --> 00:04:17.480 The Arkrum, the godfather of underground comics. 00:04:17.759 --> 00:04:19.779 The man himself just sends them copies. That 00:04:19.779 --> 00:04:22.459 takes guts. It really does. And guess what? It 00:04:22.459 --> 00:04:25.250 worked. Crum liked it. Liked Bag's stuff enough 00:04:25.250 --> 00:04:27.769 to start publishing his strips in Weirdo. Weirdo 00:04:27.769 --> 00:04:30.610 magazine. That was huge. A massive platform in 00:04:30.610 --> 00:04:32.410 that world. Oh, absolutely. And Bag became a 00:04:32.410 --> 00:04:34.730 real fixture there. Did a lot of strips, often 00:04:34.730 --> 00:04:37.089 illustrating stories by Dave Carino. But the 00:04:37.089 --> 00:04:41.509 real symbolic moment, that came in 84. What happened 00:04:41.509 --> 00:04:44.009 then? Crum was ready to step back from editing 00:04:44.009 --> 00:04:47.529 Weirdo. And he handed the reins to Peter Bag. 00:04:47.730 --> 00:04:50.110 Wow. That's not just a job offer. That's like 00:04:50.110 --> 00:04:52.939 a... coronation it really was a passing of the 00:04:52.939 --> 00:04:55.660 torch you know from that first generation of 00:04:55.660 --> 00:04:58.160 underground legends to the next wave the alternative 00:04:58.160 --> 00:05:01.420 scene bag edited it for three really important 00:05:01.420 --> 00:05:04.540 years stepped away then came back for one guest 00:05:04.540 --> 00:05:09.040 issue in 89 so Editing Weirdo cemented his place 00:05:09.040 --> 00:05:11.699 as a voice, but his style, the way his drawings 00:05:11.699 --> 00:05:13.560 looked, that's what made him totally original. 00:05:13.779 --> 00:05:16.100 Let's talk about that elastic, kinetic art style. 00:05:16.360 --> 00:05:17.959 Yeah, you see a bag panel, you know it's bag. 00:05:18.259 --> 00:05:20.040 The characters, they look like they're about 00:05:20.040 --> 00:05:22.480 to just fly apart, all limbs and bulging eyes. 00:05:22.639 --> 00:05:24.439 So where does that come from? It's so distinctive. 00:05:24.819 --> 00:05:26.959 Okay, this is the surprising part. He traces 00:05:26.959 --> 00:05:29.420 it back directly to his childhood obsession with 00:05:29.420 --> 00:05:32.199 1940s Warner Brothers cartoons. Looney Tunes. 00:05:32.500 --> 00:05:35.139 Seriously. Specifically, the ones directed by 00:05:35.139 --> 00:05:38.560 Bob Clampett. That's the DNA. That's the source 00:05:38.560 --> 00:05:40.939 code for all that manic energy on the page. That 00:05:40.939 --> 00:05:44.199 feels counterintuitive. His characters feel so 00:05:44.199 --> 00:05:47.899 modern, so cynical, like pure 90s angst. But 00:05:47.899 --> 00:05:50.500 the technique comes from classic, almost joyful 00:05:50.500 --> 00:05:53.279 animation. That's the genius of it, isn't it? 00:05:53.319 --> 00:05:55.720 He took that clamping energy, the stretching, 00:05:55.839 --> 00:05:58.360 the squash and stretch, the sheer speed, and 00:05:58.360 --> 00:06:01.029 tried to capture it. In a static drawing. Exactly, 00:06:01.089 --> 00:06:03.310 on a comic book page. He said his goal was to 00:06:03.310 --> 00:06:05.990 get that sense of movement and exaggeration into 00:06:05.990 --> 00:06:08.050 a format where things don't actually move. So 00:06:08.050 --> 00:06:09.709 the characters look like they're vibrating, like 00:06:09.709 --> 00:06:11.610 their bodies can't contain their own anxiety. 00:06:12.029 --> 00:06:15.310 Precisely. That frantic, almost painful elasticity. 00:06:15.509 --> 00:06:18.350 Yeah. It became the perfect visual language for 00:06:18.350 --> 00:06:20.269 the kind of characters he was drawing. People 00:06:20.269 --> 00:06:22.389 full of tension, dealing with, like we said, 00:06:22.430 --> 00:06:24.449 those reduced expectations. It wasn't just funny 00:06:24.449 --> 00:06:27.470 drawing. It was drawing internal chaos. A visual 00:06:27.470 --> 00:06:29.930 metaphor for the times. Okay, so he's got the 00:06:29.930 --> 00:06:32.430 style, he's got the underground cred, then comes 00:06:32.430 --> 00:06:35.269 the long -term home for that vision, Fantagraphics. 00:06:35.430 --> 00:06:38.829 Right. He starts his long association with Fantagraphics 00:06:38.829 --> 00:06:42.529 in 1985, and that's where his first solo series 00:06:42.529 --> 00:06:46.430 launches. Neat stuff. Neat stuff. 1985 to 89, 00:06:46.589 --> 00:06:48.689 this was like the laboratory, right, where he 00:06:48.689 --> 00:06:50.889 developed his whole universe. Absolutely. All 00:06:50.889 --> 00:06:52.649 the key players start showing up here. You've 00:06:52.649 --> 00:06:55.910 got Girly Girl Jr., Studs Kirby. The Bradleys. 00:06:56.399 --> 00:06:58.699 That wonderfully dysfunctional family. Them too. 00:06:59.079 --> 00:07:02.160 And crucially, the guy who would come to define 00:07:02.160 --> 00:07:05.420 Begg's work for the next decade, Buddy Bradley. 00:07:05.680 --> 00:07:07.800 For anyone wanting to track those origins, the 00:07:07.800 --> 00:07:09.660 neat stuff material got collected later, right? 00:07:09.740 --> 00:07:12.879 The Bradleys, Des Kirby Jr., and other losers. 00:07:13.139 --> 00:07:15.480 Yeah, those collections pulled the key storylines 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:18.120 together. But the real earthquake was the sequel 00:07:18.120 --> 00:07:22.180 series, the one everyone knows, Hate. Hate. Launched 00:07:22.180 --> 00:07:25.439 in 1990, ran till 98. This was the 90s alternative 00:07:25.439 --> 00:07:27.339 comic, wasn't it? Pretty much. It just hit the 00:07:27.339 --> 00:07:29.240 nail on the head. It captured the whole zeitgeist 00:07:29.240 --> 00:07:31.660 perfectly. Whether Buddy was stuck back in Jersey 00:07:31.660 --> 00:07:33.639 or, you know, famously moved out to Seattle. 00:07:33.860 --> 00:07:35.800 Right in the heart of Grunge Central. He was 00:07:35.800 --> 00:07:38.680 the absolute icon of that post -Reagan disappointment. 00:07:39.500 --> 00:07:42.980 Terrible jobs, awful apartments, messy relationships. 00:07:43.480 --> 00:07:46.420 Just this overwhelming feeling that life wasn't 00:07:46.420 --> 00:07:48.740 adding up. That theme you mentioned, the reduced 00:07:48.740 --> 00:07:51.199 expectations of middle class American youth, 00:07:51.339 --> 00:07:54.639 hate just drilled down on it with this incredibly 00:07:54.639 --> 00:07:57.920 sharp black humor. And it got noticed. Big time. 00:07:58.019 --> 00:07:59.860 We already mentioned the Harvey Awards in 91. 00:08:00.240 --> 00:08:03.180 Best new series for hate. Best cartoonist for 00:08:03.180 --> 00:08:05.579 bag himself. And it wasn't just a flash in the 00:08:05.579 --> 00:08:08.699 pan. That quality, that relevance, it lasted 00:08:08.699 --> 00:08:10.819 the whole decade. The source material points 00:08:10.819 --> 00:08:13.019 out hate was getting hearty nominations almost 00:08:13.019 --> 00:08:16.040 every single year. From 1990 right through to 00:08:16.040 --> 00:08:18.980 1999. That's incredible consistency. It shows 00:08:18.980 --> 00:08:21.399 it wasn't just trendy. It was consistently seen 00:08:21.399 --> 00:08:23.839 as top tier work by his peers. And Buddy Bradley 00:08:23.839 --> 00:08:26.540 himself became this international figure in a 00:08:26.540 --> 00:08:29.379 way. He won the UK Comic Art Award for Best Character 00:08:29.379 --> 00:08:31.500 in 91. People connected with him everywhere. 00:08:31.680 --> 00:08:33.679 Even after the main series ended in 98. Buddy 00:08:33.679 --> 00:08:35.639 lived on, right? Yeah, Bag kept checking in on 00:08:35.639 --> 00:08:37.559 him with the hate annuals. Those came out between 00:08:37.559 --> 00:08:40.759 2000 and 2010. Fans loved him. And for anyone 00:08:40.759 --> 00:08:44.070 wanting the definitive experience now. There's 00:08:44.070 --> 00:08:47.269 the complete hate came out in 2020. Right. Collected 00:08:47.269 --> 00:08:50.610 everything. All 40 original issues plus the annuals. 00:08:50.610 --> 00:08:53.610 A massive undertaking. And that collection itself 00:08:53.610 --> 00:08:57.490 won an Eisner Award in 2021. Best archival collection, 00:08:57.730 --> 00:09:00.470 which is kind of perfect, isn't it? The ultimate 00:09:00.470 --> 00:09:03.269 slacker comic gets the ultimate historical preservation 00:09:03.269 --> 00:09:06.029 award. It really does validate it as this key 00:09:06.029 --> 00:09:09.340 cultural document. But here's the thing. Just 00:09:09.340 --> 00:09:11.399 as Buddy's story was kind of winding down in 00:09:11.399 --> 00:09:13.940 those annuals, Bag was already deep into that 00:09:13.940 --> 00:09:15.759 major pivot we talked about, the shift towards 00:09:15.759 --> 00:09:17.940 fact -based work. Yeah, this is where his career 00:09:17.940 --> 00:09:20.059 path gets really fascinating because it wasn't 00:09:20.059 --> 00:09:22.059 like flipping a switch from fiction to nonfiction. 00:09:22.159 --> 00:09:25.899 There was this intense period of experimentation 00:09:25.899 --> 00:09:28.820 first. Right. He really dives into comics journalism. 00:09:29.080 --> 00:09:31.639 Started around 98. Maybe a piece for Details 00:09:31.639 --> 00:09:34.000 magazine. But it really ramps up between 2000 00:09:34.000 --> 00:09:36.960 and 2002. And he was rating while drawing about 00:09:36.960 --> 00:09:39.220 everything. He was incredibly prolific and showing 00:09:39.220 --> 00:09:41.360 right away that his style could work for reporting. 00:09:41.440 --> 00:09:44.179 He covered a ton of stuff, mostly for that early, 00:09:44.279 --> 00:09:46.720 really influential website, Suck .com. What kind 00:09:46.720 --> 00:09:50.259 of topics? Oh, all sorts. Politics, the weirdness 00:09:50.259 --> 00:09:52.940 of bar culture. He went to the Miss America pageant, 00:09:52.960 --> 00:09:56.600 looked at Christian Rock, the Oscars, applying 00:09:56.600 --> 00:09:59.750 that bag lens to real world stuff. So using that 00:09:59.750 --> 00:10:02.909 same frantic, exaggerated style, but now to observe 00:10:02.909 --> 00:10:06.470 reality instead of Buddy's internal state, it 00:10:06.470 --> 00:10:09.230 gave this unique, cynical take on modern life. 00:10:09.470 --> 00:10:11.830 And he wasn't just on Suck .com. He was doing 00:10:11.830 --> 00:10:14.350 short pieces from AD Magazine, too. And he had 00:10:14.350 --> 00:10:16.669 a regular strip in the Weekly World News. The 00:10:16.669 --> 00:10:19.429 Weekly World News. Seriously. Batboy. Adventures 00:10:19.429 --> 00:10:21.490 of Batboy. He did like a hundred of them. They 00:10:21.490 --> 00:10:24.389 collected it all in 2011. His range, even doing 00:10:24.389 --> 00:10:27.169 tabloid parody. Okay, so during this phase, experimenting 00:10:27.169 --> 00:10:29.690 with journalism parody, he also brushed up against 00:10:29.690 --> 00:10:31.909 the mainstream superhero world. Yeah, a couple 00:10:31.909 --> 00:10:34.730 of notable projects. He did his take on Spider 00:10:34.730 --> 00:10:37.129 -Man for Marvel back in 2002. And wasn't there 00:10:37.129 --> 00:10:39.470 a Hulk story? One that got kind of lost? Ah, 00:10:39.470 --> 00:10:42.549 yes. The incorrigible Hulk. Great story behind 00:10:42.549 --> 00:10:44.789 that. Bag finished the whole thing, totally infused 00:10:44.789 --> 00:10:47.549 with his style. But then, management changed 00:10:47.549 --> 00:10:49.409 at Marvel. Oh, no. Yeah, the project got shelved. 00:10:49.759 --> 00:10:52.840 Just sat there unreleased for years. Classic 00:10:52.840 --> 00:10:55.899 corporate chaos. Messing with creator vision. 00:10:56.220 --> 00:10:58.500 Did it ever see the light of day? Thankfully, 00:10:58.600 --> 00:11:02.940 yes. It finally got serialized in 2009 in a miniseries 00:11:02.940 --> 00:11:04.759 called Strange Tales Under the Marvel Knights 00:11:04.759 --> 00:11:07.379 Imprint. So you can actually see Bags Hulk now. 00:11:07.639 --> 00:11:09.960 It's wild. Good to know it wasn't lost forever. 00:11:10.159 --> 00:11:12.750 He worked with DC too, right? He did. wrote a 00:11:12.750 --> 00:11:15.970 series called, yeah, from 1999 to 2000, All Ages 00:11:15.970 --> 00:11:18.730 book about an all -girl rock band drawn by the 00:11:18.730 --> 00:11:21.210 amazing Gilbert Hernandez. Oh, wow. That's a 00:11:21.210 --> 00:11:23.889 team up. Right. Yeah. And then in 2003, he did 00:11:23.889 --> 00:11:26.470 Sweatshop for DC. And this one was interesting 00:11:26.470 --> 00:11:28.809 technically because unlike Hate, where he did 00:11:28.809 --> 00:11:31.529 almost everything, Sweatshop used an art team. 00:11:31.980 --> 00:11:34.740 Guys like Jim Blanchard, Bill Ray. Oh, so exploring 00:11:34.740 --> 00:11:36.960 collaboration, too. Sweatshop was about the comics 00:11:36.960 --> 00:11:39.379 industry itself, wasn't it? Ran for six issues. 00:11:39.659 --> 00:11:41.500 Yeah, but I'm at a commentary there. So you see 00:11:41.500 --> 00:11:43.740 him just testing all these boundaries. Mainstream, 00:11:43.879 --> 00:11:48.100 all ages, art teams, journalism, satire. But 00:11:48.100 --> 00:11:50.159 look closely at his fiction from around the mid 00:11:50.159 --> 00:11:52.919 -2000s. You start to see the pull towards history, 00:11:52.980 --> 00:11:55.700 towards research, becoming really strong. How 00:11:55.700 --> 00:11:59.500 so? Take Apocalypse Nerd. Ran from 2005 to 2007, 00:11:59.759 --> 00:12:03.789 the main story. Classic bag. Two average guys 00:12:03.789 --> 00:12:05.929 trying to survive after a nuclear attack hits 00:12:05.929 --> 00:12:09.570 the Pacific Northwest. Cynical, funny, bleak. 00:12:09.590 --> 00:12:11.250 That sounds about right. But here's the key detail. 00:12:11.409 --> 00:12:14.490 The backup stories in Apocalypse Nerd. The sources 00:12:14.490 --> 00:12:17.070 confirm they were historically researched anecdotal 00:12:17.070 --> 00:12:19.850 tales of America's founding fathers. Ah, there 00:12:19.850 --> 00:12:22.169 it is. The research bug biting right there in 00:12:22.169 --> 00:12:24.110 the back pages of his fiction. Exactly. He feels 00:12:24.110 --> 00:12:26.789 like a dry run for the biographies to come. Then 00:12:26.789 --> 00:12:29.129 he followed that with Other Lives in 2010, which 00:12:29.129 --> 00:12:31.830 was super ahead of its time, looking at how people's 00:12:31.830 --> 00:12:34.269 real lives and online lives clash. Very relevant 00:12:34.269 --> 00:12:38.110 now. And Reset in 2012, about a washed up actor 00:12:38.110 --> 00:12:41.019 reliving his life virtually. So still exploring 00:12:41.019 --> 00:12:42.759 modern anxieties. Right. But that definitive 00:12:42.759 --> 00:12:44.759 shift, it really locks in with his science history 00:12:44.759 --> 00:12:47.019 work. Right, for Discover Magazine, starting 00:12:47.019 --> 00:12:49.759 in 2009. Yeah, and this wasn't just a one -off. 00:12:49.799 --> 00:12:51.720 It became a regular gig, a continuing series 00:12:51.720 --> 00:12:54.320 of comics about the history of science. Applying 00:12:54.320 --> 00:12:56.419 that unmistakable bag style, the energy, the 00:12:56.419 --> 00:12:59.000 exaggeration, not to Buddy Bradley, but to key 00:12:59.000 --> 00:13:01.159 scientists and moments in scientific discovery. 00:13:01.399 --> 00:13:03.480 So he's proving the comics medium can handle 00:13:03.480 --> 00:13:05.700 this, right? It's not just for subjective angst. 00:13:05.700 --> 00:13:08.220 It can be for rigorous, factual storytelling, 00:13:08.399 --> 00:13:11.070 too. Absolutely. He's using caricature and dynamic 00:13:11.070 --> 00:13:14.690 layouts to make potentially dry historical facts 00:13:14.690 --> 00:13:17.190 engaging memorable. Which leads us squarely into 00:13:17.190 --> 00:13:20.429 the next major phase, the biography triptych. 00:13:20.570 --> 00:13:23.090 This feels like a really significant turn focusing 00:13:23.090 --> 00:13:26.470 on these major historical women. It really is. 00:13:26.570 --> 00:13:29.889 A huge shift away from the male -centric world 00:13:29.889 --> 00:13:33.190 of hate. towards these deep complex historically 00:13:33.190 --> 00:13:36.509 grounded profiles of important and often controversial 00:13:36.509 --> 00:13:38.889 female figures the first one was woman rebel 00:13:38.889 --> 00:13:42.059 the margaret sanger story 2013. Correct. About 00:13:42.059 --> 00:13:44.379 the birth control advocate. And Sanger is not 00:13:44.379 --> 00:13:46.480 a simple figure. Her story is full of social 00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:48.639 upheaval, legal fights, ethical complexities. 00:13:48.980 --> 00:13:51.139 Bagg had to bring his style to bear on really 00:13:51.139 --> 00:13:54.240 serious, nuanced history. And it worked, critically 00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:56.940 speaking. It definitely did. Woman Rebel got 00:13:56.940 --> 00:13:59.740 an Eisner nomination in 2014 for best reality 00:13:59.740 --> 00:14:01.960 -based work. It was huge validation. It showed 00:14:01.960 --> 00:14:04.039 he'd successfully made the transition and was 00:14:04.039 --> 00:14:06.139 being recognized for it. Then came Zora Neale 00:14:06.139 --> 00:14:10.039 Hurston. Fire. The Zora Neale Hurston Story, 00:14:10.240 --> 00:14:14.419 2017. Profiling the incredible writer, anthropologist, 00:14:14.600 --> 00:14:17.700 icon of the Harlem Renaissance. Again, navigating 00:14:17.700 --> 00:14:20.299 really complex cultural history, literary impact, 00:14:20.679 --> 00:14:23.299 biographical detail. The research had to be spot 00:14:23.299 --> 00:14:26.940 on. And the third in the series. Credo. The Rose 00:14:26.940 --> 00:14:30.100 Wilder Lane Story from 2019. Lane, the author, 00:14:30.139 --> 00:14:32.399 political thinker, daughter of Laura Ingalls 00:14:32.399 --> 00:14:34.799 Wilder. and a really key figure in the development 00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:36.779 of American libertarian thought. OK, so these 00:14:36.779 --> 00:14:38.700 aren't just simple biographies. They're tackling 00:14:38.700 --> 00:14:41.759 figures with really significant, sometimes contentious 00:14:41.759 --> 00:14:44.820 legacies. Exactly. And he brings that same meticulous 00:14:44.820 --> 00:14:46.720 research approach he honed on the science trips 00:14:46.720 --> 00:14:49.340 to these lives. It shows this commitment to presenting 00:14:49.340 --> 00:14:52.419 the facts, even about controversial people, which... 00:14:52.669 --> 00:14:54.690 naturally connects to his own political identity. 00:14:54.830 --> 00:14:56.690 Right. We should touch on that. Bagg's been openly 00:14:56.690 --> 00:14:58.909 libertarian for a long time, and it often surfaces 00:14:58.909 --> 00:15:01.509 in his work, usually through that cynical observational 00:15:01.509 --> 00:15:04.169 humor. Yeah, especially since 2003, when he started 00:15:04.169 --> 00:15:06.350 contributing to Reason magazine, the libertarian 00:15:06.350 --> 00:15:08.649 publication. He does prose pieces and comics 00:15:08.649 --> 00:15:11.450 commentary for them. So looking at his politics, 00:15:11.710 --> 00:15:14.769 the sources paint a picture of someone pretty, 00:15:14.950 --> 00:15:18.470 independent minded. Very. And we should just 00:15:18.470 --> 00:15:20.110 report this impartially because it does shed 00:15:20.110 --> 00:15:22.590 light on his perspective. You can see why he 00:15:22.590 --> 00:15:25.850 captured that alienated 90s vibe and maybe why 00:15:25.850 --> 00:15:27.830 he's drawn to complex figures. For instance, 00:15:27.970 --> 00:15:30.470 he strongly opposed the Iraq War, very critical 00:15:30.470 --> 00:15:32.889 of George W. Bush. But his voting record isn't 00:15:32.889 --> 00:15:35.049 straight ticket libertarian, is it? Not at all. 00:15:35.090 --> 00:15:38.009 It's fascinatingly pragmatic or maybe contrarian. 00:15:38.190 --> 00:15:41.110 In 2000, yes, he voted for the libertarian candidate, 00:15:41.269 --> 00:15:44.889 Harry Brown. OK. But then in 2004. He voted for 00:15:44.889 --> 00:15:47.789 Democrat John Kerry. His stated reason, simply, 00:15:47.889 --> 00:15:50.889 I wanted to fire Bush. So strategic voting over 00:15:50.889 --> 00:15:53.210 ideological purity there. It was like it. In 00:15:53.210 --> 00:15:55.169 2008 was similar. He talked about voting for 00:15:55.169 --> 00:15:57.870 Bob Barr, the libertarian, as a protest. Unless 00:15:57.870 --> 00:16:00.149 the polls were close in his state, then maybe 00:16:00.149 --> 00:16:02.990 Obama to stop McCain, who he saw as incompetent. 00:16:03.029 --> 00:16:05.149 So what does he end up doing? He confirmed later 00:16:05.149 --> 00:16:07.450 in reason that he did vote for Barr. And he added, 00:16:07.590 --> 00:16:10.350 kind of defiantly, I stand by that vote more 00:16:10.350 --> 00:16:12.750 now than I did then. Interesting. It definitely 00:16:12.750 --> 00:16:15.210 suggests someone who values independent thought 00:16:15.210 --> 00:16:18.830 and distrusts established power more than sticking 00:16:18.830 --> 00:16:21.990 to one party line. Exactly. And that critical, 00:16:22.149 --> 00:16:25.309 skeptical viewpoint is what fuels his comics 00:16:25.309 --> 00:16:28.629 journalism and, you know, arguably informs how 00:16:28.629 --> 00:16:31.210 he approaches these complex historical biographies. 00:16:31.289 --> 00:16:33.389 A lot of that political work, especially the 00:16:33.389 --> 00:16:35.649 reason strips, got collected, didn't it? Yep. 00:16:35.690 --> 00:16:38.610 In a 2009 book called Everybody is Stupid Except 00:16:38.610 --> 00:16:41.480 for Me. and other astute observations. The title 00:16:41.480 --> 00:16:44.100 says it all, really. It perfectly captures that 00:16:44.100 --> 00:16:47.440 specific brand of bag cynicism, whether he's 00:16:47.440 --> 00:16:50.700 aiming it at Buddy Bradley's world or Washington, 00:16:50.860 --> 00:16:52.980 D .C. And we should quickly mention his wife, 00:16:53.120 --> 00:16:55.000 Joanne, is a key part of the process, right? 00:16:55.159 --> 00:16:57.080 Especially later on. Absolutely. She does a lot 00:16:57.080 --> 00:16:58.940 of the coloring work on his publications, including 00:16:58.940 --> 00:17:01.039 the biographies. It's very much a collaborative 00:17:01.039 --> 00:17:03.100 effort behind the scenes. Okay, so let's pull 00:17:03.100 --> 00:17:05.500 back and look at the overall recognition. This 00:17:05.500 --> 00:17:08.359 career. It's not just about hate. It's about 00:17:08.359 --> 00:17:11.539 sustained impact across different genres for 00:17:11.539 --> 00:17:13.920 decades. The longevity is really impressive. 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:17.160 We mentioned the early RVs in 91. But those nine 00:17:17.160 --> 00:17:20.279 subsequent years of hate nominations, that shows 00:17:20.279 --> 00:17:22.940 real staying power. And the Eisner Awards track 00:17:22.940 --> 00:17:25.799 his whole journey. Nominations for writing and 00:17:25.799 --> 00:17:27.839 drawing hate in the 90s. Then the nomination 00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:30.839 for Woman Rebel as reality -based work in 2014. 00:17:31.319 --> 00:17:34.319 And finally, the win for the Complete Hate Archive 00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:38.299 in 2021. His career arc is literally mapped out 00:17:38.299 --> 00:17:40.460 in those awards. Plus international recognition, 00:17:40.680 --> 00:17:44.049 like that UK Comic Art Award back in 1990. and 00:17:44.049 --> 00:17:47.289 the Inkpot Award in 2010 from Comic -Con, which 00:17:47.289 --> 00:17:49.730 is basically a lifetime achievement award for 00:17:49.730 --> 00:17:52.009 comics and related fields. And it goes beyond 00:17:52.009 --> 00:17:55.069 just comics awards, too. He's gotten major institutional 00:17:55.069 --> 00:17:57.829 recognition. Yeah, like being named a Rockefeller 00:17:57.829 --> 00:18:00.150 Fellow for Literature and receiving a United 00:18:00.150 --> 00:18:03.109 States Artist's Award in 2014. That's serious 00:18:03.109 --> 00:18:05.470 validation, placing comics firmly in the realm 00:18:05.470 --> 00:18:07.769 of legitimate literature and art. His influence 00:18:07.769 --> 00:18:10.130 also spilled over into other media, even if briefly. 00:18:10.700 --> 00:18:12.799 animation right he did those animated commercials 00:18:12.799 --> 00:18:15.440 for round table pizza his style just lends itself 00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:17.480 to movement and wasn't there an early internet 00:18:17.480 --> 00:18:21.400 cartoon yeah back in 2001 working with comedian 00:18:21.400 --> 00:18:24.500 dana gould it was a macromedia flash cartoon 00:18:24.500 --> 00:18:28.279 called marie wilson rock and roll dad for icebox 00:18:28.279 --> 00:18:31.460 .com wow early web animation so he was experimenting 00:18:31.460 --> 00:18:33.519 there too just like with journalism he seems 00:18:33.519 --> 00:18:35.940 to always be exploring the edges and don't forget 00:18:35.940 --> 00:18:38.920 music oh yeah he was in bands play drums in a 00:18:38.920 --> 00:18:42.420 seattle power pop band the action suits and guitar 00:18:42.420 --> 00:18:45.059 and another one can you imagine that kinetic 00:18:45.059 --> 00:18:47.259 energy it wasn't just in the drawings it makes 00:18:47.259 --> 00:18:50.000 sense a restless creative energy and finally 00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:52.420 people are starting to study him seriously academically 00:18:52.420 --> 00:18:54.890 definitely Tomorrow's Publishing did a whole 00:18:54.890 --> 00:18:56.990 book on him in their Comics Introspective series 00:18:56.990 --> 00:18:59.650 back in 2007. And the University Press of Mississippi 00:18:59.650 --> 00:19:02.789 published Peter Badge. Conversations in 2015 00:19:02.789 --> 00:19:05.730 collecting 30 years of interviews. His legacy 00:19:05.730 --> 00:19:08.309 is being documented. So wrapping this all up, 00:19:08.369 --> 00:19:10.569 the core story here is that transition, isn't 00:19:10.569 --> 00:19:12.890 it? From nailing that counterculture frustration 00:19:12.890 --> 00:19:15.609 in fiction. To meticulously documenting history 00:19:15.609 --> 00:19:18.690 and biography. All while keeping that same signature 00:19:18.690 --> 00:19:21.809 over the top, kinetic style. He basically proved 00:19:21.809 --> 00:19:25.200 comics could do both. raw satire, and rigorous 00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:27.259 fact. So the takeaway for you, the listener, 00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:30.099 Bagg's career is exhibit A for the flexibility 00:19:30.099 --> 00:19:33.660 of the comics medium. It can handle deeply personal 00:19:33.660 --> 00:19:36.900 anarchic humor and serious historical research, 00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:41.200 complex political ideas, all within one artist's 00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:43.900 very recognizable voice. You don't have to change 00:19:43.900 --> 00:19:45.759 your style to change your subject matter. Which 00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:47.680 leaves us with a final thought for you to chew 00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:49.619 on. Remember, way back at the beginning, we talked 00:19:49.619 --> 00:19:53.160 about his goal. capturing that wild, bob -clamping 00:19:53.160 --> 00:19:56.019 cartoon energy in a static drawing. Yeah, that 00:19:56.019 --> 00:19:58.720 elasticity. Right. So when he takes that same 00:19:58.720 --> 00:20:01.339 commitment to maximalist energy, that elasticity, 00:20:01.579 --> 00:20:05.000 and applies it to serious fact -based biographies. 00:20:05.059 --> 00:20:07.259 Think about Margaret Sanger, Zora Neale Hurston, 00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:09.859 these complex, controversial women. Does that 00:20:09.859 --> 00:20:12.220 visual elasticity maybe translate into a kind 00:20:12.220 --> 00:20:15.019 of elasticity of perspective, too? A willingness, 00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:18.000 maybe even a necessity, to embrace ambiguity 00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:19.980 in different viewpoints when looking at history? 00:20:20.119 --> 00:20:22.299 Does the style influence the substance, even 00:20:22.299 --> 00:20:24.819 in nonfiction? A great question to ponder. Thanks 00:20:24.819 --> 00:20:25.859 for diving deep with us today.