WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.399 Welcome back to the Deep Dive. Today we're undertaking 00:00:03.399 --> 00:00:06.940 something that's, well, it's messy, definitely 00:00:06.940 --> 00:00:10.179 challenging, but really essential, I think. We're 00:00:10.179 --> 00:00:12.380 unpacking the life and work of Aliyah Kazan. 00:00:12.480 --> 00:00:15.019 And, you know, this is a director the New York 00:00:15.019 --> 00:00:17.699 Times described as, what was the exact phrase? 00:00:18.039 --> 00:00:20.699 One of the most honored and influential directors 00:00:20.699 --> 00:00:22.739 in Broadway and Hollywood history. That's the 00:00:22.739 --> 00:00:26.109 one. A man whose artistic genius. You know, it 00:00:26.109 --> 00:00:29.190 really did fundamentally reshape American performance. 00:00:29.429 --> 00:00:31.329 But you just can't separate that legacy, can 00:00:31.329 --> 00:00:33.929 you? I mean, it's huge, monumental even, but 00:00:33.929 --> 00:00:37.490 it's tied directly to this profound political 00:00:37.490 --> 00:00:39.869 controversy. Exactly. It defined, really, the 00:00:39.869 --> 00:00:41.850 second half of his life. Yeah, he's such a study 00:00:41.850 --> 00:00:44.229 in contrast, this visionary director, nurturing 00:00:44.229 --> 00:00:46.490 the absolute greatest talents, you know, Hoffman, 00:00:46.549 --> 00:00:49.310 De Niro, Pacino, later influenced by his whole 00:00:49.310 --> 00:00:51.229 approach. Right. And then there's the other side, 00:00:51.390 --> 00:00:55.090 the political informer, his 1952 testimony. It 00:00:55.090 --> 00:00:57.250 left scars, real scars on people he knew, people 00:00:57.250 --> 00:00:59.929 he worked with. Absolutely. Yeah. And our sources 00:00:59.929 --> 00:01:02.609 today, they really demand we look at this whole 00:01:02.609 --> 00:01:05.790 picture with clear eyes, you know, acknowledge 00:01:05.790 --> 00:01:08.489 the brilliance, the miracles he created on screen, 00:01:08.670 --> 00:01:11.829 but also the personal betrayals that kind of 00:01:11.829 --> 00:01:14.129 cast a shadow over everything. So our mission 00:01:14.129 --> 00:01:16.870 today for you listening is to try and grasp the 00:01:16.870 --> 00:01:19.439 full sweep of the Kazan story. Right. We'll start 00:01:19.439 --> 00:01:22.299 with his foundations, American theater, the group 00:01:22.299 --> 00:01:25.019 theater, the birth of method acting. That's huge 00:01:25.019 --> 00:01:27.019 in itself. Then we'll get into his film career, 00:01:27.140 --> 00:01:30.519 which was just explosive, defined by these really 00:01:30.519 --> 00:01:34.079 tough social issue subjects and his incredible 00:01:34.079 --> 00:01:36.629 eye for talent. Discovering stars. Unmatched, 00:01:36.670 --> 00:01:40.310 really. Truly. But then we have to talk about 00:01:40.310 --> 00:01:43.349 the political shadow, the HUAC testimony. It's 00:01:43.349 --> 00:01:45.430 unavoidable. Can't ignore it. And finally, we'll 00:01:45.430 --> 00:01:47.769 look at the dynasty he left behind. A whole family, 00:01:47.829 --> 00:01:51.569 multigenerational of writers, actors, still working 00:01:51.569 --> 00:01:53.909 today, still shaping stories. It's fascinating. 00:01:54.030 --> 00:01:56.329 So the big question, the one hanging over all 00:01:56.329 --> 00:01:59.349 of this. Yeah. It's maybe the central challenge 00:01:59.349 --> 00:02:01.409 when we look at art, isn't it? Yeah. How do you 00:02:01.409 --> 00:02:04.310 reconcile this transformative artistic legacy? 00:02:05.200 --> 00:02:07.939 I mean, genuinely game changing with an act of 00:02:07.939 --> 00:02:10.879 political compliance of person betrayal that 00:02:10.879 --> 00:02:13.099 had such devastating consequences. That's the 00:02:13.099 --> 00:02:15.560 tightrope. Let's let's try and unpack it. OK, 00:02:15.659 --> 00:02:19.060 so to really get Kazan to understand the intensity 00:02:19.060 --> 00:02:21.000 in his work, you have to start with his identity, 00:02:21.219 --> 00:02:24.780 where he came from. He was born Elias Kazantzoglu 00:02:24.780 --> 00:02:28.060 in Constantinople, which is now Istanbul, of 00:02:28.060 --> 00:02:31.560 course. 1909. His parents were Cappadocian Greeks. 00:02:31.740 --> 00:02:34.639 And this wasn't just like. a biographical footnote, 00:02:34.699 --> 00:02:38.020 was it? His roots, his heritage, they were fundamental 00:02:38.020 --> 00:02:41.080 to how he saw the world, how he directed. Absolutely 00:02:41.080 --> 00:02:44.219 fundamental. He came to the U .S. in 1913, just 00:02:44.219 --> 00:02:46.639 four years old, raised Greek Orthodox, pretty 00:02:46.639 --> 00:02:48.639 strict household. And he talked a lot about feeling 00:02:48.639 --> 00:02:51.120 like an outsider, didn't he? That sense of alienation. 00:02:51.719 --> 00:02:53.539 caught between his immigrant parents' traditions 00:02:53.539 --> 00:02:56.939 and mainstream American culture. He really did. 00:02:57.060 --> 00:02:59.280 That tension, that feeling of being displaced, 00:02:59.500 --> 00:03:02.199 it's arguably the bedrock of his whole directorial 00:03:02.199 --> 00:03:04.159 voice. You feel it in the films. Which leads 00:03:04.159 --> 00:03:05.780 us straight into what he considered his most 00:03:05.780 --> 00:03:08.879 personal work. Exactly. His autobiographical 00:03:08.879 --> 00:03:11.259 novel and then the film he made from it, Americas. 00:03:12.730 --> 00:03:15.889 America, 1963. Ah, yeah. This film tells the 00:03:15.889 --> 00:03:18.490 story he grew up hearing about his uncle's journey, 00:03:18.650 --> 00:03:21.009 desperate journey, really, escaping Kirky, trying 00:03:21.009 --> 00:03:25.120 to get to America, sacrificing, well... Almost 00:03:25.120 --> 00:03:27.199 everything compromising his morals sometimes 00:03:27.199 --> 00:03:30.039 just to get here. And our sources, they really 00:03:30.039 --> 00:03:33.020 emphasize this Kazan called America, America, 00:03:33.300 --> 00:03:35.939 his favorite of all the films I've made. Which 00:03:35.939 --> 00:03:37.819 is saying something considering the classics 00:03:37.819 --> 00:03:40.500 he'd already directed by 63. Right. Waterfront, 00:03:40.560 --> 00:03:43.259 Streetcar, East of Eden. Yeah. He said it was 00:03:43.259 --> 00:03:46.520 the first film that was entirely mine. That tells 00:03:46.520 --> 00:03:48.699 you everything about how deeply that immigrant 00:03:48.699 --> 00:03:51.479 narrative resonated with him, capturing the desperation, 00:03:51.759 --> 00:03:53.840 the hope, the complexity of the American dream. 00:03:54.180 --> 00:03:55.919 There's that story about the ending, too, isn't 00:03:55.919 --> 00:03:57.960 there? The character gets to New York. Oh, yeah. 00:03:58.259 --> 00:04:01.000 Powerful stuff. Near the Statue of Liberty, he 00:04:01.000 --> 00:04:03.840 kneels down and kisses the ground. Passionately. 00:04:03.919 --> 00:04:06.060 Critics apparently thought it was, what, too 00:04:06.060 --> 00:04:08.740 sentimental? Yeah. Naive. Something like that. 00:04:08.879 --> 00:04:12.840 But Kazan defended it fiercely. He said, and 00:04:12.840 --> 00:04:14.819 this is a direct quote, to oppressed people, 00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:18.620 America is still a dream. He wasn't just directing 00:04:18.620 --> 00:04:21.279 a scene. He was directing his own family history, 00:04:21.500 --> 00:04:25.420 his own emotional truth. Wow. So before he's 00:04:25.420 --> 00:04:28.339 Kazan the director, he's Elias the student. Williams 00:04:28.339 --> 00:04:31.819 College, graduates, cum laude. But he wasn't 00:04:31.819 --> 00:04:33.980 exactly privileged, right? Not at all. Worked 00:04:33.980 --> 00:04:36.439 his way through bartender, washed dishes. That's 00:04:36.439 --> 00:04:38.939 where he got the nickname Gaj, short for gadget. 00:04:39.199 --> 00:04:42.279 Why Gaj? Apparently because he was seen as small, 00:04:42.339 --> 00:04:46.500 compact, and handy to have around. Gaj. It stuck, 00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:48.519 didn't it? Kind of fits that image of focused 00:04:48.519 --> 00:04:51.480 intensity. Useful. It really does. Then came 00:04:51.480 --> 00:04:54.040 Yale School of Drama. And after that, the place 00:04:54.040 --> 00:04:56.259 that truly forged him, the group theater he joined 00:04:56.259 --> 00:04:58.620 in 1932. And the story goes they initially told 00:04:58.620 --> 00:05:00.509 him he wasn't cut out for acting. Yeah, something 00:05:00.509 --> 00:05:02.089 like he might have talent for something, but 00:05:02.089 --> 00:05:04.529 it's certainly not acting. Imagine. But the group 00:05:04.529 --> 00:05:07.370 became, in his own words, his first strong sense 00:05:07.370 --> 00:05:10.129 of self in America. It was his artistic home, 00:05:10.230 --> 00:05:12.509 his family, really. And for you listening, it's 00:05:12.509 --> 00:05:15.250 crucial to get this. The group theater wasn't 00:05:15.250 --> 00:05:17.850 just another theater company. It was, well, it 00:05:17.850 --> 00:05:20.660 was a revolution back then. Absolutely. Founded 00:05:20.660 --> 00:05:22.980 by Lee Strasberg, Harold Klerman, Cheryl Crawford 00:05:22.980 --> 00:05:26.339 during the Depression. Their whole mission was 00:05:26.339 --> 00:05:29.240 social commentary, intense psychological realism 00:05:29.240 --> 00:05:32.180 on stage. Zan thrived there. He became known 00:05:32.180 --> 00:05:34.980 as the proletarian Thunderbolt after his performance 00:05:34.980 --> 00:05:38.180 in Waiting for Lefty. 1935, yeah. Playing a strike 00:05:38.180 --> 00:05:40.860 -leading taxi driver. That intensity, that raw 00:05:40.860 --> 00:05:43.720 energy, it came straight from what would become 00:05:43.720 --> 00:05:46.730 The Method. And Strasberg and Klerman were key 00:05:46.730 --> 00:05:48.949 figures for him there. Father figures, he called 00:05:48.949 --> 00:05:51.709 them. Definitely. Especially Strasberg. Kazan 00:05:51.709 --> 00:05:55.050 describes Strasberg's influence as almost mystical. 00:05:55.430 --> 00:05:57.769 Said he had the aura of a prophet, a magician, 00:05:57.990 --> 00:05:59.949 a witch doctor, a psychoanalyst, and a feared 00:05:59.949 --> 00:06:02.329 father. Wow, that's intense. It sounds less like 00:06:02.329 --> 00:06:04.589 an acting class and more like group therapy or 00:06:04.589 --> 00:06:06.910 something. It kind of was, in a way, a deep psychological 00:06:06.910 --> 00:06:09.569 workshop. So let's pause on the method itself. 00:06:09.889 --> 00:06:12.569 We hear the term all the time. What exactly was 00:06:12.569 --> 00:06:14.910 it? And what was Kazan's role in bringing it 00:06:14.910 --> 00:06:17.750 forward? How did it break from older acting styles? 00:06:18.009 --> 00:06:21.290 OK, so the method drawing heavily from Stanislavski 00:06:21.290 --> 00:06:24.360 system from Russia. Fundamentally, it was about 00:06:24.360 --> 00:06:27.100 stopping pretending to feel things on stage and 00:06:27.100 --> 00:06:29.040 starting to actually feel them. Moving beyond 00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:31.259 just gestures and reciting lines beautifully. 00:06:31.519 --> 00:06:34.300 Exactly. Moving away from that external rhetorical 00:06:34.300 --> 00:06:37.620 style towards internal psychological truth. It 00:06:37.620 --> 00:06:40.879 required actors to dig deep, use their own memories, 00:06:41.060 --> 00:06:44.319 sensory experiences, even their traumas to connect 00:06:44.319 --> 00:06:46.779 with the character's reality. That's deeply personal, 00:06:46.920 --> 00:06:49.740 which makes Kazan's later comment, every film 00:06:49.740 --> 00:06:52.279 is autobiographical, hit even harder, doesn't 00:06:52.279 --> 00:06:55.250 it? It really does. He demanded that same vulnerability 00:06:55.250 --> 00:06:58.009 from his actors that he poured into his own most 00:06:58.009 --> 00:07:01.189 personal work, like America. And Kazan's genius 00:07:01.189 --> 00:07:03.610 initially was taking that intensity from the 00:07:03.610 --> 00:07:06.029 sort of radical fringe of the group theater. 00:07:06.290 --> 00:07:08.709 Which produced amazing talents like Lee J. Cobb, 00:07:08.870 --> 00:07:11.410 John Garfield. Right. And bring it into the mainstream 00:07:11.410 --> 00:07:13.709 American theater. His directing successes were 00:07:13.709 --> 00:07:16.329 huge. Thornton Wilder's The Skin of Our Teeth 00:07:16.329 --> 00:07:18.970 in 42. Pulitzer winner. And then the big ones. 00:07:19.370 --> 00:07:22.350 Arthur Miller's Death of a Salesman. Tennessee 00:07:22.350 --> 00:07:26.790 Williams is a streetcar named Desire. These cemented 00:07:26.790 --> 00:07:29.269 him. He was the director on Broadway in the 1940s. 00:07:29.269 --> 00:07:31.430 No question. And he made sure this approach, 00:07:31.569 --> 00:07:34.879 this school of thought. would survive he co -founded 00:07:34.879 --> 00:07:37.819 the actor's studio in 1947 with robert lewis 00:07:37.819 --> 00:07:40.620 and cheryl crawford right now kazan was key in 00:07:40.620 --> 00:07:42.800 starting it but it was really lee strasburg who 00:07:42.800 --> 00:07:44.980 took over later and kind of codified the method 00:07:44.980 --> 00:07:47.620 made it the dominant force the sort of psychological 00:07:47.620 --> 00:07:50.699 and behavioral faith as one source puts it that 00:07:50.699 --> 00:07:53.100 would transform post -war hollywood acting which 00:07:53.100 --> 00:07:55.639 perfectly sets the stage for kazan's next act 00:07:55.639 --> 00:07:58.420 yeah moving into cinema yeah taking these techniques 00:07:58.420 --> 00:08:01.019 this intensity onto the big screen so kazan was 00:08:01.019 --> 00:08:03.259 to film and that philosophy that intense personal 00:08:03.259 --> 00:08:05.699 realism, it just gets amplified. He felt the 00:08:05.699 --> 00:08:07.819 camera was actually a better tool for digging 00:08:07.819 --> 00:08:10.540 into that psychological truth he was after. His 00:08:10.540 --> 00:08:13.259 core principle was choosing subjects rooted in 00:08:13.259 --> 00:08:15.920 personal or social issues. He said flat out, 00:08:16.019 --> 00:08:18.199 I don't move unless I have some empathy with 00:08:18.199 --> 00:08:20.939 the basic theme. That insistence on empathy, 00:08:21.139 --> 00:08:24.189 on realism. It led him away from the typical 00:08:24.189 --> 00:08:26.730 Hollywood look, didn't it? The polished studio 00:08:26.730 --> 00:08:29.430 bound aesthetic. Completely. He was actively 00:08:29.430 --> 00:08:32.570 seeking cinematic realism. So how did he achieve 00:08:32.570 --> 00:08:35.330 that practically? Good question. Well, he literally 00:08:35.330 --> 00:08:37.690 took the camera out of the studio, out onto the 00:08:37.690 --> 00:08:40.769 streets. He was a real pioneer of location shooting. 00:08:40.889 --> 00:08:43.730 He wanted accuracy, grit, intensity, something 00:08:43.730 --> 00:08:45.789 that felt almost like a documentary. Like panic 00:08:45.789 --> 00:08:49.440 in the streets. Perfect example. 1950. shot entirely 00:08:49.440 --> 00:08:52.600 on location in new orleans he used a style almost 00:08:52.600 --> 00:08:54.879 cinema verite that just wasn't common in big 00:08:54.879 --> 00:08:57.519 features then real people real places sometimes 00:08:57.519 --> 00:09:01.879 handheld cameras it gave the drama this raw immediate 00:09:01.879 --> 00:09:04.720 feeling unavoidable it sounds like the visual 00:09:04.720 --> 00:09:06.940 equivalent of the method acting he championed 00:09:06.940 --> 00:09:09.620 the actor digs for internal truth The camera 00:09:09.620 --> 00:09:11.440 digs for external truth. That's a great way to 00:09:11.440 --> 00:09:14.240 put it, precisely. And this whole quest for authenticity 00:09:14.240 --> 00:09:17.000 profoundly shaped how he cast his films. He wasn't 00:09:17.000 --> 00:09:19.419 big on the established star system, was he? Notoriously 00:09:19.419 --> 00:09:22.179 skeptical. He said casting was 90 % of success, 00:09:22.440 --> 00:09:25.460 and he strongly preferred unknowns. Why unknowns? 00:09:26.019 --> 00:09:28.059 What was his reasoning? It was pretty blunt, 00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:30.779 actually. He claimed big stars are barely trained 00:09:30.779 --> 00:09:32.820 or not very well trained. They also have bad 00:09:32.820 --> 00:09:36.039 habits. They're not pliable anymore. Pliable? 00:09:36.620 --> 00:09:39.139 That word really stands out. It suggests he needed 00:09:39.139 --> 00:09:43.620 actors who were, well, moldable, maybe without 00:09:43.620 --> 00:09:45.759 the defenses or habits of established stars. 00:09:45.919 --> 00:09:48.480 Yeah, actors he could shape, maybe even manipulate, 00:09:48.679 --> 00:09:51.659 frankly. Our sources talk about his very intimate 00:09:51.659 --> 00:09:54.179 psychological approach, taking actors to dinner, 00:09:54.340 --> 00:09:57.259 meeting their families, finding the human material, 00:09:57.279 --> 00:09:59.320 as he put it, that he needed to work with or 00:09:59.320 --> 00:10:01.539 maybe exploit. Which brings us right to the star 00:10:01.539 --> 00:10:03.779 -making legacy. It's incredible. Let's start 00:10:03.779 --> 00:10:07.100 with the obvious one. Marlon Brando. Kazan had 00:10:07.100 --> 00:10:09.460 already directed him on stage in Streetcar, but 00:10:09.460 --> 00:10:13.419 the 1951 film version, that cemented Brando and 00:10:13.419 --> 00:10:16.340 the method on screen forever. And Brando himself, 00:10:16.480 --> 00:10:18.399 what did he say about Kazan? He called him gaj. 00:10:18.559 --> 00:10:20.659 Yeah, he did. And he was incredibly complimentary, 00:10:20.899 --> 00:10:23.399 called Kazan the best actor's director by far. 00:10:23.539 --> 00:10:25.600 The only one who ever really stimulated me. High 00:10:25.600 --> 00:10:28.879 praise. But there's a catch, isn't there? Brando 00:10:28.879 --> 00:10:31.360 also called him an arch manipulator of actors' 00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:33.669 feelings. There's the dichotomy again. What did 00:10:33.669 --> 00:10:35.610 that manipulation actually look like on set? 00:10:35.809 --> 00:10:38.669 How did Kazan operate? It was very conscious, 00:10:38.870 --> 00:10:41.769 a psychological technique. He knew method acting 00:10:41.769 --> 00:10:44.690 often involved accessing real emotional pain, 00:10:44.870 --> 00:10:48.110 real vulnerabilities. And he wasn't afraid to 00:10:48.110 --> 00:10:50.929 find those triggers. So for Brando, for example. 00:10:51.169 --> 00:10:53.450 He'd identify Brando's personal tensions, maybe 00:10:53.450 --> 00:10:55.769 his issues with authority, things from his past. 00:10:55.830 --> 00:10:58.529 And then he'd subtly or sometimes not so subtly 00:10:58.529 --> 00:11:01.110 bring those tensions into the rehearsal room. 00:11:01.559 --> 00:11:04.279 Or even right before a take. Wow. So he wasn't 00:11:04.279 --> 00:11:06.440 just directing the scene. He was kind of directing 00:11:06.440 --> 00:11:08.600 the actor's real life into the scene. You could 00:11:08.600 --> 00:11:11.000 say that. He was almost psychoanalyzing them 00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:13.639 and then strategically provoking a reaction he 00:11:13.639 --> 00:11:16.279 needed for the camera. That's ruthless. That 00:11:16.279 --> 00:11:19.039 willingness to cross personal lines for the art, 00:11:19.120 --> 00:11:21.860 that's where the genius and maybe the problematic 00:11:21.860 --> 00:11:24.179 side really meet. It certainly illuminates that 00:11:24.179 --> 00:11:26.000 central conflict we talked about. I mean, look 00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:29.480 at James Dean in East of Eden, 1955. Kazan saw 00:11:29.480 --> 00:11:31.840 that film as deeply autobiographical, didn't 00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:34.179 he? About his own father. Yeah, my father and 00:11:34.179 --> 00:11:37.000 me, he said. He cast Dean, this volatile unknown, 00:11:37.279 --> 00:11:40.100 precisely because he saw the alienation the character 00:11:40.100 --> 00:11:42.340 needed. He saw it in Dean. Kazan's description 00:11:42.340 --> 00:11:46.440 of Dean is just raw. calling him an extreme grotesque 00:11:46.440 --> 00:11:48.779 of a boy, a twisted boy, because of a denial 00:11:48.779 --> 00:11:51.259 of love. It sounds less like director -actor, 00:11:51.379 --> 00:11:53.940 more like therapist -patient, almost. It really 00:11:53.940 --> 00:11:56.039 does. And the intensity was apparently off the 00:11:56.039 --> 00:11:58.539 charts. Kazan had to practically babysit Dean. 00:11:58.779 --> 00:12:01.940 They had trailers side by side. Kazan was constantly 00:12:01.940 --> 00:12:05.259 afraid Dean would just bolt. Really? Yeah. He 00:12:05.259 --> 00:12:07.820 had to manage Dean's real -life feelings of being 00:12:07.820 --> 00:12:11.259 an outcast, his insecurities, to fuel that performance 00:12:11.259 --> 00:12:15.389 of Caltrask. He was exhausting. But it resulted 00:12:15.389 --> 00:12:18.169 in an Oscar nomination for Dean's very first 00:12:18.169 --> 00:12:21.190 major film role. Incredible. And it wasn't just 00:12:21.190 --> 00:12:23.330 the intense young man he discovered or shaped. 00:12:23.470 --> 00:12:26.360 Right. Eva Marie Saint. Great example. One best 00:12:26.360 --> 00:12:28.480 supporting actress for On the Waterfront, her 00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:30.759 screen debut. How did he find her? The story 00:12:30.759 --> 00:12:34.100 is fantastic. He had her do a surprise improvisation 00:12:34.100 --> 00:12:36.960 with Brando, threw them together, and watching 00:12:36.960 --> 00:12:39.659 them, Kazan instantly saw this chemistry, this 00:12:39.659 --> 00:12:41.919 tension. He knew she had the vulnerability, but 00:12:41.919 --> 00:12:44.120 also the underlying strength. Cast her right 00:12:44.120 --> 00:12:47.019 there. Pure instinct. Amazing. No resume needed. 00:12:47.179 --> 00:12:49.559 Just that raw connection. Then you've got Warren 00:12:49.559 --> 00:12:52.039 Beatty and Natalie Wood in Splendor in the Grass, 00:12:52.220 --> 00:12:54.740 1961. He introduced Beatty to the screen in that 00:12:54.740 --> 00:12:57.659 one. Yep. Saw this certain confidence in Beatty, 00:12:57.740 --> 00:13:00.240 the street spy, he called it. Beatty later said 00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:03.299 Kazan gave him his most important break. He always 00:13:03.299 --> 00:13:07.259 credited Kazan. And Natalie Wood. She was considered 00:13:07.259 --> 00:13:09.379 kind of washed up at that point, wasn't she? 00:13:09.559 --> 00:13:11.700 Despite being so young. Industry perception, 00:13:12.019 --> 00:13:15.059 yeah. A few bad film choices, but Kazan looked 00:13:15.059 --> 00:13:17.820 past that. He cast her and, according to critics, 00:13:18.019 --> 00:13:20.460 got the greatest emotional heights of her entire 00:13:20.460 --> 00:13:22.840 career out of her in that film. The results just 00:13:22.840 --> 00:13:25.230 speak for themselves. His actors. What was the 00:13:25.230 --> 00:13:28.029 total? 24 Oscar nominations. 24 nominations, 00:13:28.370 --> 00:13:31.450 nine wins. That statistic alone tells you everything 00:13:31.450 --> 00:13:33.590 about his power as an actor's director. The best 00:13:33.590 --> 00:13:36.529 of his era, arguably. And let's not forget, he 00:13:36.529 --> 00:13:38.409 was an actor's director for the writers, too. 00:13:38.690 --> 00:13:41.389 Tennessee Williams, Arthur Miller. bud schulberg 00:13:41.389 --> 00:13:43.990 he was instrumental in their careers on stage 00:13:43.990 --> 00:13:46.730 and screen absolutely his relationship with tennessee 00:13:46.730 --> 00:13:49.789 williams was particularly deep williams called 00:13:49.789 --> 00:13:52.389 kazan his most loyal and understanding friend 00:13:52.389 --> 00:13:54.870 there's that letter williams wrote him yeah 1959 00:13:54.870 --> 00:13:58.049 williams wrote someday you will know how much 00:13:58.049 --> 00:14:00.529 i value the great things you did with my work 00:14:00.529 --> 00:14:03.129 how you lifted it above its measure by your great 00:14:03.129 --> 00:14:07.320 gift wow high praise indeed Kazan was the bridge, 00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:09.779 wasn't he? Translating that complex literary 00:14:09.779 --> 00:14:12.460 drama into something visceral, something human, 00:14:12.600 --> 00:14:16.000 on screen and stage. He really was. But that 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:18.620 ability to access deep truth, it came with complications. 00:14:19.179 --> 00:14:21.460 Which leads us to the next unavoidable part of 00:14:21.460 --> 00:14:23.220 the story. Okay, so now we have to turn to the 00:14:23.220 --> 00:14:26.200 part of Kazan's legacy that, well... It just 00:14:26.200 --> 00:14:28.059 complicates everything, the political reality. 00:14:28.100 --> 00:14:30.580 This is where the director, obsessed with truth, 00:14:30.700 --> 00:14:33.600 becomes this major political lightning rod. We're 00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:35.299 talking about the Hollywood blacklist era, the 00:14:35.299 --> 00:14:39.019 Red Scare. And specifically, April 1952, Kazan 00:14:39.019 --> 00:14:41.559 testifies before the House Un -American Activities 00:14:41.559 --> 00:14:44.960 Committee, HUAC. Right. And the context is key. 00:14:45.399 --> 00:14:47.919 He had been a member of the Communist Party USA. 00:14:48.879 --> 00:14:51.980 but only for a short time, about two years, back 00:14:51.980 --> 00:14:55.240 in the mid -1930s. Now, when he first went before 00:14:55.240 --> 00:14:58.100 HUAC, he actually refused to name names. He was 00:14:58.100 --> 00:15:00.820 under immense pressure, obviously, but he went 00:15:00.820 --> 00:15:03.419 back later that same month. And this time he 00:15:03.419 --> 00:15:06.620 cooperated. Fully, as a friendly witness. He 00:15:06.620 --> 00:15:08.399 named eight people he knew from his group theater 00:15:08.399 --> 00:15:10.919 days who had also been party members, including 00:15:10.919 --> 00:15:13.379 some big names like the playwright Clifford Odets 00:15:13.379 --> 00:15:16.940 and actors Morris Karnofsky and Art Smith. An 00:15:16.940 --> 00:15:19.159 act that was instantly divisive. And Kazan spent 00:15:19.159 --> 00:15:20.899 the rest of his life defending it, didn't he? 00:15:20.940 --> 00:15:23.480 He did. He framed it as choosing the only the 00:15:23.480 --> 00:15:26.019 more tolerable of two alternatives, admitting 00:15:26.019 --> 00:15:28.700 both were painful and wrong. But what really 00:15:28.700 --> 00:15:30.580 set his case apart, what made it such a political 00:15:30.580 --> 00:15:32.779 flashpoint, was what he did next. And his paper 00:15:32.779 --> 00:15:35.419 ad. Exactly. He took out a full page ad in the 00:15:35.419 --> 00:15:37.879 New York Times. times it was defiant. He urged 00:15:37.879 --> 00:15:40.840 other people to cooperate with HUAC. He laid 00:15:40.840 --> 00:15:43.539 out his own anti -communist stance and then came 00:15:43.539 --> 00:15:45.720 that infamous line. I would rather hurt them 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:49.759 a little than hurt myself a lot. Yeah. That line, 00:15:49.759 --> 00:15:52.980 it shifted his action from just self -preservation, 00:15:53.159 --> 00:15:56.500 which many others did quietly, to this very public, 00:15:56.519 --> 00:15:59.200 almost aggressive advocacy for naming names. 00:15:59.460 --> 00:16:01.899 And our sources trace the roots of this intense 00:16:01.899 --> 00:16:04.490 anti -communism. Back to his time in the group 00:16:04.490 --> 00:16:06.429 theater, right? Yeah. Something happened there 00:16:06.429 --> 00:16:08.529 in the 30s. That seems to be a key part of his 00:16:08.529 --> 00:16:11.490 justification, yes. He felt betrayed by the Communist 00:16:11.490 --> 00:16:14.330 Party years earlier. Apparently, the party leadership 00:16:14.330 --> 00:16:17.330 wanted him to engineer a strike within the group 00:16:17.330 --> 00:16:19.789 theater itself. Against the group's leadership, 00:16:20.029 --> 00:16:23.090 Strasberg and Klerman. Seems so. And Kazan refused. 00:16:23.529 --> 00:16:26.389 He felt it would be behaving treacherously towards 00:16:26.389 --> 00:16:28.870 what he considered his artistic family. So he 00:16:28.870 --> 00:16:31.110 felt the party itself had demanded a betrayal 00:16:31.110 --> 00:16:33.789 first. That was his narrative. He resented the 00:16:33.789 --> 00:16:36.389 party's demands for rigid discipline, for ideological 00:16:36.389 --> 00:16:39.049 purity, for what he called confession and self 00:16:39.049 --> 00:16:41.690 -humbling. He saw it as the opposite of the artistic 00:16:41.690 --> 00:16:44.470 freedom the group represented. So decades later, 00:16:44.549 --> 00:16:46.990 when Heat UAC came knocking, that old bitterness, 00:16:47.190 --> 00:16:49.169 that sense of having been manipulated by the 00:16:49.169 --> 00:16:51.750 party himself, seems to have fueled his decision 00:16:51.750 --> 00:16:54.690 and his defiance. But regardless of his personal 00:16:54.690 --> 00:16:57.230 motivations, the consequences for the people 00:16:57.230 --> 00:17:00.370 he named were devastating. Immediate and severe. 00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:03.240 Their names went on the blacklist. Their careers 00:17:03.240 --> 00:17:06.380 were, as one source puts it, damaged if not shattered. 00:17:06.940 --> 00:17:09.339 Art Smith, a really respected actor, couldn't 00:17:09.339 --> 00:17:12.000 get significant work for years. The human cost 00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:15.099 was enormous. And it fractured relationships 00:17:15.099 --> 00:17:20.200 permanently. Arthur Miller, his friend, his collaborator. 00:17:20.339 --> 00:17:22.859 Miller's reflection on it is just chilling. He 00:17:22.859 --> 00:17:24.799 said his feelings were complex, but he admitted 00:17:24.799 --> 00:17:27.339 seeing a side of Kazan that scared him. He believed 00:17:27.339 --> 00:17:29.759 Kazan would have sacrificed me as well. Wow. 00:17:30.220 --> 00:17:32.240 That just underscores the depth of the betrayal 00:17:32.240 --> 00:17:34.900 people felt, the breakdown of trust. It does. 00:17:34.940 --> 00:17:36.960 And, you know, Orson Welles had that famous quote 00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:38.660 that sort of sums up the whole dilemma, doesn't 00:17:38.660 --> 00:17:40.839 it? What was that? He called Kazan a traitor, 00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:43.240 but then immediately added he is a very good 00:17:43.240 --> 00:17:46.019 director. Genius versus moral compromise right 00:17:46.019 --> 00:17:48.960 there. You can't deny the talent, but the label 00:17:48.960 --> 00:17:51.500 traitor just sticks. And that tension never went 00:17:51.500 --> 00:17:54.279 away. It exploded again almost 50 years later 00:17:54.279 --> 00:17:57.420 in 1999 when the Academy decided to give Kazan 00:17:57.420 --> 00:18:00.670 an honorary Oscar. That was hugely controversial. 00:18:00.930 --> 00:18:03.750 I remember seeing it. Protests outside the ceremony. 00:18:03.990 --> 00:18:06.529 Oh yeah, about 250 demonstrators picketing. And 00:18:06.529 --> 00:18:10.210 inside, the atmosphere was electric when Kazan 00:18:10.210 --> 00:18:13.150 came on stage. You could see it on TV. The audience 00:18:13.150 --> 00:18:15.710 was completely split. Some people sitting stone 00:18:15.710 --> 00:18:18.690 -faced, arms crossed. Ed Harris, Nick Nolte, 00:18:18.829 --> 00:18:22.970 Ian McKellen, just refusing to clap. A silent 00:18:22.970 --> 00:18:25.849 protest against his H -UAC testimony, right there 00:18:25.849 --> 00:18:27.849 in the middle of the Oscars. But then others 00:18:27.849 --> 00:18:30.759 stood up. Meryl Streep, Karl Malden, who was 00:18:30.759 --> 00:18:33.680 in Waterfront, and streetcar Warren Beatty, they 00:18:33.680 --> 00:18:36.140 gave him a standing ovation. Why did they say 00:18:36.140 --> 00:18:37.940 they stood? What was the justification? Well, 00:18:37.940 --> 00:18:40.319 George Stevens Jr., another director who applauded, 00:18:40.339 --> 00:18:42.880 he sort of articulated that side, saying they 00:18:42.880 --> 00:18:45.400 stood out of regard for the creativity, the stamina, 00:18:45.460 --> 00:18:47.359 and the many fierce battles and lonely nights 00:18:47.359 --> 00:18:49.579 that had gone into the man's 20 motion pictures, 00:18:49.819 --> 00:18:52.799 recognizing the work. So it was Hollywood publicly 00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:55.420 grappling with its own history. The honor wasn't 00:18:55.420 --> 00:18:57.700 just for the films, it was for, as someone put 00:18:57.700 --> 00:19:00.789 it, the totality of what he represents, controversy 00:19:00.789 --> 00:19:03.670 included. Exactly. The division was stark. But 00:19:03.670 --> 00:19:07.039 even that controversy, that deep split. It hasn't 00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:09.480 stopped Kazan's influence from continuing. Like 00:19:09.480 --> 00:19:12.019 Martin Scorsese. Perfect example. Scorsese co 00:19:12.019 --> 00:19:14.559 -directed that documentary, A Letter to Alia, 00:19:14.700 --> 00:19:17.960 in 2010. It's a really personal tribute. Scorsese 00:19:17.960 --> 00:19:20.519 credits Kazan as a massive inspiration for his 00:19:20.519 --> 00:19:23.039 own filmmaking. The style, the realism, the psychology. 00:19:23.299 --> 00:19:25.920 All of it. That foundation Kazan laid, particularly 00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:28.140 with the method and his approach to realism, 00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:30.900 it's still fundamental to American cinema. Even 00:19:30.900 --> 00:19:33.450 if the man himself remains, you know... deeply 00:19:33.450 --> 00:19:36.569 complicated. So Elie Kazan passes away in 2003. 00:19:36.730 --> 00:19:40.190 But that artistic force, that intense focus on 00:19:40.190 --> 00:19:42.829 the personal, the psychological truth, it didn't 00:19:42.829 --> 00:19:45.210 just disappear, did it? It seems like it flowed 00:19:45.210 --> 00:19:47.329 right into his family. Yeah. Creating this really 00:19:47.329 --> 00:19:50.529 fascinating multi -generational dynasty. It really 00:19:50.529 --> 00:19:52.990 did. And you have to start with his first wife, 00:19:53.190 --> 00:19:55.450 Molly Day Thatcher Kazan. She wasn't just the 00:19:55.450 --> 00:19:57.890 wife. She was a significant figure herself. A 00:19:57.890 --> 00:20:00.309 playwright. Yeah. A dramatist, a playwright, 00:20:00.490 --> 00:20:03.750 graduated Vassar. to Yale Drama School. That's 00:20:03.750 --> 00:20:06.289 where she met Ilya. She was active professionally, 00:20:06.549 --> 00:20:08.750 even headed the playwriting division at the actor's 00:20:08.750 --> 00:20:11.910 studio for a while until 62. So she was involved 00:20:11.910 --> 00:20:14.069 in that world, professionally influential on 00:20:14.069 --> 00:20:16.990 him even. Seems likely, yes. Although their marriage 00:20:16.990 --> 00:20:19.910 was reportedly very difficult, strained by his 00:20:19.910 --> 00:20:23.009 constant affairs, including, famously, with Marilyn 00:20:23.009 --> 00:20:25.789 Monroe. Right. And Molly had a role in the political 00:20:25.789 --> 00:20:28.019 side too, didn't she? according to some sources. 00:20:28.200 --> 00:20:30.500 That's the interesting part. Sources describe 00:20:30.500 --> 00:20:33.480 her as an especially bitter anti -communist, 00:20:33.519 --> 00:20:36.240 and some even suggest she was the main author, 00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:38.559 or at least heavily involved in writing, that 00:20:38.559 --> 00:20:41.440 controversial New York Times ad where Elia defended 00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:44.660 his testimony. Wow. So the political drama wasn't 00:20:44.660 --> 00:20:46.880 just his, it was potentially a shared stance 00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:48.819 within the immediate family. It adds another 00:20:48.819 --> 00:20:51.450 layer, doesn't it? Now, this intensity, maybe 00:20:51.450 --> 00:20:54.049 this complexity, too, seems to have passed down 00:20:54.049 --> 00:20:56.690 to their son, Nicholas Kazan. Who became a successful 00:20:56.690 --> 00:20:59.730 screenwriter, producer, director himself. Absolutely. 00:20:59.950 --> 00:21:02.269 Kept that family tradition going, focusing on 00:21:02.269 --> 00:21:05.410 complex characters. He got Oscar and Golden Globe 00:21:05.410 --> 00:21:08.289 nominations for Best Adapted Screenplay for Reversal 00:21:08.289 --> 00:21:10.849 of Fortune. The Claus von Bilo story. That was 00:21:10.849 --> 00:21:13.750 huge in 1990. Yeah. And he wrote Francis before 00:21:13.750 --> 00:21:17.200 that, another intense biographical drama. He 00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:20.099 clearly had that knack for sharp, character -driven 00:21:20.099 --> 00:21:22.440 stories. You see the lineage from his father 00:21:22.440 --> 00:21:24.839 that focus on the interior lives. And Nicholas 00:21:24.839 --> 00:21:28.099 married Robin Swickord, creating a real Hollywood 00:21:28.099 --> 00:21:30.619 power couple. Definitely. Robin Swickord is a 00:21:30.619 --> 00:21:33.640 major talent, screenwriter, director, particularly 00:21:33.640 --> 00:21:36.299 known for literary adaptations. She directed 00:21:36.299 --> 00:21:38.579 the Jane Austen Book Club. And her screenwriting 00:21:38.579 --> 00:21:41.740 credits are amazing. Little Women from 94. Memoirs 00:21:41.740 --> 00:21:45.180 of a Geisha, Matilda. She got an Oscar nomination 00:21:45.180 --> 00:21:47.740 for the story credit on The Curious Case of Benjamin 00:21:47.740 --> 00:21:50.440 Button. So talented. And she and Nicholas collaborated 00:21:50.440 --> 00:21:52.700 on Matilda, right? Adapting Roald Dahl. They 00:21:52.700 --> 00:21:55.440 did. It really shows how that passion for storytelling, 00:21:55.599 --> 00:21:57.859 for screenwriting, became a family business in 00:21:57.859 --> 00:22:00.119 a way. And Robin Swickard is still very active, 00:22:00.200 --> 00:22:01.980 serves on the Board of Governors for the Academy. 00:22:02.339 --> 00:22:04.339 Okay, so that brings us to the third generation, 00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:07.059 the grandchildren. And this is where it gets 00:22:07.059 --> 00:22:09.099 really interesting, with the continuation of 00:22:09.099 --> 00:22:12.380 that artistic spirit. Zoe Kazan, Nicholas, and 00:22:12.380 --> 00:22:15.000 Robin's daughter. Right, and Zoe embodies that 00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:18.099 multi -talented spirit, maybe most clearly. She's 00:22:18.099 --> 00:22:19.920 highly accomplished as both an actress and a 00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:22.859 writer. Moves between stage and screen just like 00:22:22.859 --> 00:22:25.460 her grandfather did, in a way. She made her Broadway 00:22:25.460 --> 00:22:28.619 debut back in 2008, got an Emmy nomination for 00:22:28.619 --> 00:22:31.119 all of Kitteridge. Fantastic miniseries. But 00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:33.990 what's really striking is how she also... takes 00:22:33.990 --> 00:22:36.609 control of the narrative, much like Elia did 00:22:36.609 --> 00:22:39.490 with America. She writes her own material. Absolutely. 00:22:39.569 --> 00:22:42.089 She wrote and starred in Ruby Sparks. That was 00:22:42.089 --> 00:22:44.690 a big indie hit in 2012. Love that film. And 00:22:44.690 --> 00:22:47.609 she co -wrote Wildlife in 2018, which was critically 00:22:47.609 --> 00:22:50.569 acclaimed. Plus, she's continued acting in major 00:22:50.569 --> 00:22:53.230 stuff like The Big Sick, The Plot Against America. 00:22:53.549 --> 00:22:56.369 She clearly has that drive to write, to perform, 00:22:56.569 --> 00:22:58.589 to shape her own path. It seems like a direct 00:22:58.589 --> 00:23:01.480 inheritance. And her sister, Maya Kazan. Also 00:23:01.480 --> 00:23:03.400 an actress, carrying on that performance tradition, 00:23:03.660 --> 00:23:06.420 she's probably best known for TV roles like Eleanor 00:23:06.420 --> 00:23:08.839 Gallinger in The Nick. Oh, right. And Mabel Thompson 00:23:08.839 --> 00:23:11.019 in Boardwalk Empire. Exactly. And she's done 00:23:11.019 --> 00:23:13.599 acclaimed stage work, too. Critics praised her 00:23:13.599 --> 00:23:16.079 in The Winter's Tale for her natural radiance, 00:23:16.160 --> 00:23:18.880 unassuming intelligence and gentleness. It's 00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:21.079 pretty remarkable, isn't it? How that intensity, 00:23:21.200 --> 00:23:24.420 that focus needed for both writing and performing, 00:23:24.539 --> 00:23:27.180 which was so central to Aaliyah Kazan's genius, 00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:29.319 seems to have been passed down through three 00:23:29.319 --> 00:23:32.380 generations. It really is. The legacy isn't just 00:23:32.380 --> 00:23:34.619 about a specific style, maybe, but about that 00:23:34.619 --> 00:23:37.210 deep dedication to finding emotional truth. truth, 00:23:37.289 --> 00:23:39.650 whatever the medium. Hashtag, tag, tag, outro, 00:23:39.809 --> 00:23:41.950 outro. So as we wrap up this deep dive, we're 00:23:41.950 --> 00:23:45.430 left reflecting on Ilya Kazan. I mean, what a 00:23:45.430 --> 00:23:47.950 force. His relentless drive to put personal experience 00:23:47.950 --> 00:23:50.529 on screen, his own background, his conflicts, 00:23:50.710 --> 00:23:53.569 his fears. He gave us these absolute masterpieces. 00:23:53.690 --> 00:23:56.130 On the waterfront, east of Eden, a streetcar 00:23:56.130 --> 00:23:58.849 named Desire. Gentleman's Agreement 2. Right. 00:23:59.339 --> 00:24:01.779 He truly defines so much of mid -20th century 00:24:01.779 --> 00:24:04.079 American culture, artistically just immense. 00:24:04.420 --> 00:24:06.859 And that's why he remains so studied, so debated. 00:24:07.079 --> 00:24:09.019 I mean, think about Dustin Hoffman saying he 00:24:09.019 --> 00:24:11.279 doubted whether he, De Niro, or Pacino would 00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:13.319 have even become actors without DeSantis' influence. 00:24:13.559 --> 00:24:17.240 That's huge. The method, that dive into psychological 00:24:17.240 --> 00:24:20.519 realism, that's his undeniable gift to acting, 00:24:20.640 --> 00:24:23.319 to filmmaking. But the political shadow, the 00:24:23.319 --> 00:24:27.000 HUAC testimony, that remains the cost, the complication. 00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:29.579 And that cost, that whole tangled legacy of loyalty, 00:24:29.779 --> 00:24:33.819 betrayal, art. politics, it's actually being 00:24:33.819 --> 00:24:36.319 revisited right now in a uniquely personal way 00:24:36.319 --> 00:24:38.400 by the next generation. Yeah, this is fascinating. 00:24:38.559 --> 00:24:41.299 Remember how Alia Kazan felt East of Eden was 00:24:41.299 --> 00:24:45.019 so deeply autobiographical? That story of fathers 00:24:45.019 --> 00:24:47.559 and sons, rejection, acceptance. Claimed it was 00:24:47.559 --> 00:24:49.119 the story of him and his own father. Exactly. 00:24:49.119 --> 00:24:51.380 Well, guess who's writing and executive producing 00:24:51.380 --> 00:24:54.299 a brand new seven episode TV adaptation of East 00:24:54.299 --> 00:24:56.839 of Eden right now? Granddaughter. Zoe Kazan. 00:24:56.880 --> 00:24:59.460 Zoe Kazan. She is actively reshaping the very 00:24:59.460 --> 00:25:01.579 narrative her grandfather called his most personal. 00:25:01.680 --> 00:25:03.559 That connection is just incredibly powerful, 00:25:03.559 --> 00:25:05.920 isn't it? The dynasty revisiting its foundational 00:25:05.920 --> 00:25:09.240 text, in a way, a text loaded with themes of 00:25:09.240 --> 00:25:12.240 family, loyalty, betrayal, all the baggage of 00:25:12.240 --> 00:25:14.680 Elia's own life. It really is. So it leaves us 00:25:14.680 --> 00:25:16.380 with a pretty provocative question, something 00:25:16.380 --> 00:25:19.299 for you, the listener, to think about. As this 00:25:19.299 --> 00:25:22.039 Kazan dynasty takes on this crucial story again. 00:25:22.779 --> 00:25:24.720 What new truths, what different perspectives, 00:25:24.980 --> 00:25:26.779 maybe what kind of reckoning about the American 00:25:26.779 --> 00:25:29.380 dream, about ambition, about family secrets, 00:25:29.559 --> 00:25:33.720 what will this generation choose to reveal? Especially 00:25:33.720 --> 00:25:35.960 given they've inherited both the artistic gifts 00:25:35.960 --> 00:25:38.799 and the moral complexities of that Kazan name. 00:25:39.000 --> 00:25:41.599 What will their East of Eden tell us? That deep 00:25:41.599 --> 00:25:43.640 dive, as you say, is definitely still in progress. 00:25:43.960 --> 00:25:45.779 Indeed it is. We'll leave you chewing on that. 00:25:46.220 --> 00:25:47.900 Thanks for joining us for this deep dive.