WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.940 OK let's unpack this. We are embarking on an 00:00:03.940 --> 00:00:08.039 intensive deep dive into the world of Dan Harmon 00:00:08.039 --> 00:00:12.339 complex brilliant often controversial. Absolutely. 00:00:12.580 --> 00:00:15.939 A writer producer comedian. I mean he's really 00:00:15.939 --> 00:00:18.000 shaped a lot of television over the last couple 00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:20.620 of decades. Especially with meta comedy, you 00:00:20.620 --> 00:00:22.660 know, giving us these genre bending classics 00:00:22.660 --> 00:00:25.679 like Community and, of course, the absolute phenomenon 00:00:25.679 --> 00:00:27.839 that is Rick and Morty. Right. And we've got 00:00:27.839 --> 00:00:30.079 a great stack of sources here. They really trace 00:00:30.079 --> 00:00:32.579 his whole journey, you know, from his early days 00:00:32.579 --> 00:00:35.219 in Chicago, sketch comedy. Midwest roots. Yeah. 00:00:35.280 --> 00:00:37.259 All the way up to his current, well, animation 00:00:37.259 --> 00:00:40.030 empire, really. But the real nugget here, the 00:00:40.030 --> 00:00:42.369 thing we really want to dig into for you is the 00:00:42.369 --> 00:00:45.229 technique he uses. This specific method for building 00:00:45.229 --> 00:00:47.630 pretty much every story he tells. Exactly. So 00:00:47.630 --> 00:00:50.409 our mission today isn't just like a biography. 00:00:50.670 --> 00:00:53.829 We need to get under the hood, dissect the engineering 00:00:53.829 --> 00:00:56.149 that makes his stories tick. And that's this 00:00:56.149 --> 00:00:59.670 specific, quite rigid eight step writing framework. 00:00:59.750 --> 00:01:01.750 It's almost like a storytelling cheat code he 00:01:01.750 --> 00:01:03.409 developed. Yeah, the story circle. That's what 00:01:03.409 --> 00:01:05.530 it's called. So for you listening, the idea is 00:01:05.530 --> 00:01:08.879 to go beyond just, you know. enjoying the surface 00:01:08.879 --> 00:01:11.400 chaos of his shows. Right, zaniness. And understand 00:01:11.400 --> 00:01:13.799 the actual structure that holds it all together. 00:01:14.060 --> 00:01:17.260 We're going to explore how this almost compulsive 00:01:17.260 --> 00:01:20.099 drive for structural symmetry. Using his story 00:01:20.099 --> 00:01:22.500 circle. How that became the bedrock for these 00:01:22.500 --> 00:01:25.159 global hits, these really culturally relevant 00:01:25.159 --> 00:01:28.219 shows. It really is a fascinating paradox, isn't 00:01:28.219 --> 00:01:30.299 it? This sort of controlled explosion of creativity. 00:01:30.859 --> 00:01:32.879 Okay, so where do we start? Let's like the fuse. 00:01:33.359 --> 00:01:37.420 Well, Daniel James Harmon. Born January 3rd, 00:01:37.420 --> 00:01:41.519 1973 in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Grew up there, 00:01:41.640 --> 00:01:44.239 soaked in that kind of distinct Midwestern humor. 00:01:44.400 --> 00:01:46.319 Brown Deer High School, then Marquette University 00:01:46.319 --> 00:01:48.159 for a bit. Right. Those are the early years. 00:01:48.280 --> 00:01:52.060 But maybe the single most creatively significant 00:01:52.060 --> 00:01:55.780 biographical stop actually came later and way 00:01:55.780 --> 00:01:58.019 further west. Oh, you're talking about Glendale 00:01:58.019 --> 00:02:01.620 Community College. In California. Exactly. Which 00:02:01.620 --> 00:02:03.219 is just one of those perfect examples, isn't 00:02:03.219 --> 00:02:05.200 it? A writer taking something totally mundane 00:02:05.200 --> 00:02:07.560 from their own life. Yeah. A brief stint at community 00:02:07.560 --> 00:02:11.039 college. And turning it directly into the premise, 00:02:11.159 --> 00:02:14.300 the actual setting for community. Six seasons, 00:02:14.539 --> 00:02:17.259 critically acclaimed, all from that one experience. 00:02:17.680 --> 00:02:19.699 Absolutely. And if you look at the period before 00:02:19.699 --> 00:02:23.819 that, say 1996 through 2008, you can really see 00:02:23.819 --> 00:02:27.310 him laying the groundwork for his. Counterculture 00:02:27.310 --> 00:02:29.409 style. He was really involved in the improv and 00:02:29.409 --> 00:02:31.689 sketch scene back in Milwaukee, right? Deeply 00:02:31.689 --> 00:02:33.889 embedded. He was a member of Comedy Sports, and 00:02:33.889 --> 00:02:35.610 that's where he really teamed up with Rob Schrab, 00:02:35.729 --> 00:02:37.490 his longtime collaborator. And they were in that 00:02:37.490 --> 00:02:39.530 sketch troupe, the Dead Alewives. That's them. 00:02:39.650 --> 00:02:41.969 They even put out an album in 96, Take Down the 00:02:41.969 --> 00:02:44.770 Grandmaster. Really codified their style. We 00:02:44.770 --> 00:02:46.569 probably need to pause here, though, and talk 00:02:46.569 --> 00:02:48.949 about the kind of comedy he was doing, the tone 00:02:48.949 --> 00:02:51.969 he set early on. Oh, yeah. Definitely boundary 00:02:51.969 --> 00:02:54.710 pushing. Our sources point specifically to this 00:02:54.710 --> 00:02:58.469 one routine he did back at Milwaukee's safe house 00:02:58.469 --> 00:03:02.129 free comedy stage. It was. Well, it was a song. 00:03:02.189 --> 00:03:04.990 A very memorable song about masturbation. Yeah. 00:03:05.069 --> 00:03:07.770 Quite graphic. Right. And you can see even then 00:03:07.770 --> 00:03:10.310 he was establishing this thing where his comedy 00:03:10.310 --> 00:03:12.870 wouldn't shy away from the super personal, the 00:03:12.870 --> 00:03:16.780 awkward, the self -loathing. That kind of cringe 00:03:16.780 --> 00:03:19.199 humor. It really sets the stage, doesn't it? 00:03:19.219 --> 00:03:22.439 Yeah. For the kind of painful self -awareness 00:03:22.439 --> 00:03:24.719 you see later in characters like Jeff Winger 00:03:24.719 --> 00:03:26.979 or even Rick Sanchez. Yeah. That vulnerability 00:03:26.979 --> 00:03:30.159 mixed with sharpness. Exactly. But what's interesting 00:03:30.159 --> 00:03:32.819 is while that early stuff was maybe chaotic and 00:03:32.819 --> 00:03:35.240 pushing boundaries. His professional focus pretty 00:03:35.240 --> 00:03:37.759 quickly seemed to shift towards like controlling 00:03:37.759 --> 00:03:39.919 that chaos, putting structure around it. Which 00:03:39.919 --> 00:03:42.919 brings us to Channel 101. Right. The real collaborative 00:03:42.919 --> 00:03:46.009 launchpad. He co -founded that with. Rob Schrab. 00:03:46.189 --> 00:03:48.310 And Channel 101, it wasn't just a website, was 00:03:48.310 --> 00:03:51.229 it? It was more like an alternative TV network, 00:03:51.349 --> 00:03:53.530 a proving ground. Yeah, exactly. Writers, directors, 00:03:53.669 --> 00:03:55.949 they had to create these short pilots. Yeah. 00:03:56.129 --> 00:03:58.750 Like five minutes long every month. And the audience 00:03:58.750 --> 00:04:01.330 voted. Yeah. If they liked it, you got to make 00:04:01.330 --> 00:04:03.969 another episode next month. If not, canceled 00:04:03.969 --> 00:04:06.990 immediately. Wow. Talk about pressure. That's 00:04:06.990 --> 00:04:09.550 like merciless, structured, short form storytelling 00:04:09.550 --> 00:04:12.240 boot camp. It absolutely was. A crucible for 00:04:12.240 --> 00:04:15.039 structure, like you said. And it actually birthed 00:04:15.039 --> 00:04:18.300 some real cult hits. Like Heat Vision and Jack. 00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:21.220 That pilot. That's the most famous one, yeah. 00:04:21.439 --> 00:04:24.500 Starring Jack Black and Owen Wilson. Huge cult 00:04:24.500 --> 00:04:27.339 following. Incredible. And Harmon was also involved 00:04:27.339 --> 00:04:29.259 in other stuff there, like the web series Yacht 00:04:29.259 --> 00:04:31.500 Rock. He actually acted in that one. He did, 00:04:31.540 --> 00:04:35.079 did. What was he? He played this highly fictionalized 00:04:35.079 --> 00:04:37.259 version of the music producer Ted Templeman. 00:04:37.579 --> 00:04:39.259 You know, talking about soft rock history, the 00:04:39.259 --> 00:04:41.459 Doobie Brothers. Okay, that's amazing. But you 00:04:41.459 --> 00:04:43.639 can see how that hyper -specific, disciplined 00:04:43.639 --> 00:04:46.620 approach at Channel 101. It really paved the 00:04:46.620 --> 00:04:49.000 way for more mainstream stuff. Right, because 00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:51.319 then he co -created and was head writer for the 00:04:51.319 --> 00:04:53.839 Sarah Silverman program on Comedy Central for 00:04:53.839 --> 00:04:55.920 a while. Yeah, started flexing those muscles 00:04:55.920 --> 00:04:58.980 in TV. And features, too. He co -wrote the screenplay 00:04:58.980 --> 00:05:01.240 for Monster House. Which got nominated for an 00:05:01.240 --> 00:05:04.509 Oscar, right? For animation. It did. And the 00:05:04.509 --> 00:05:06.709 film work continued in some surprising places. 00:05:06.990 --> 00:05:09.370 He's actually credited with writing part of Rob 00:05:09.370 --> 00:05:12.850 Schrab's comic book series, Scud, The Disposable 00:05:12.850 --> 00:05:15.250 Assassin. Really? The comic book? Yeah, and in 00:05:15.250 --> 00:05:18.449 the spinoff, Lacosa Nostroid. And then kind of 00:05:18.449 --> 00:05:21.029 showing his utility in the studio system, he 00:05:21.029 --> 00:05:23.850 did uncredited work on big movies. Like Kung 00:05:23.850 --> 00:05:28.449 Fu Panda. In 2008. Exactly. So these early years, 00:05:28.589 --> 00:05:31.110 they're not just, you know, a list of jobs. They 00:05:31.110 --> 00:05:33.569 show someone mastering different fields, improv, 00:05:33.930 --> 00:05:36.810 sketch, web series, animation structure. And 00:05:36.810 --> 00:05:38.790 then applying those structural lessons to whatever 00:05:38.790 --> 00:05:41.149 came next, even if it seemed totally different. 00:05:41.350 --> 00:05:43.829 Precisely. That incredible versatility, that 00:05:43.829 --> 00:05:46.589 structural focus, it leads directly into the 00:05:46.589 --> 00:05:49.490 community years. Which is really where his, let's 00:05:49.490 --> 00:05:51.649 say, personal and professional conflicts came 00:05:51.649 --> 00:05:54.250 right out into the open. The high price of being 00:05:54.250 --> 00:05:57.230 the author, the showrunner. Yeah. Community launched 00:05:57.230 --> 00:06:00.610 in 2009 on NBC. Harmon was the showrunner, executive 00:06:00.610 --> 00:06:02.750 producer for those first three seasons. And he 00:06:02.750 --> 00:06:04.490 was just pouring everything into it. The show 00:06:04.490 --> 00:06:06.490 was already meta just by its premise, right? 00:06:06.529 --> 00:06:08.509 His own experience. But he layered on top of 00:06:08.509 --> 00:06:11.850 that just incredible structural complexity, pop 00:06:11.850 --> 00:06:14.550 culture references, self -awareness. It was dense. 00:06:14.850 --> 00:06:17.980 Very dense. Yeah. And while it was a critical 00:06:17.980 --> 00:06:20.100 darling, you know, this phenomenon of intricate 00:06:20.100 --> 00:06:23.240 comedy, it was apparently notoriously difficult 00:06:23.240 --> 00:06:25.660 to make. You hear stories. Harmon's process. 00:06:26.360 --> 00:06:30.399 Sounds like it was intense. Very hands -on. Obsessive, 00:06:30.399 --> 00:06:33.240 maybe? And often combative. Especially with network 00:06:33.240 --> 00:06:36.449 notes, executive oversight. He fought for his 00:06:36.449 --> 00:06:38.709 vision. And that conflict, well, it boiled over 00:06:38.709 --> 00:06:42.029 very publicly, May 2012. Yep. Harmon gets abruptly 00:06:42.029 --> 00:06:44.329 fired from his own show. Yep. The official reason 00:06:44.329 --> 00:06:46.829 given was creative conflicts with Sony executives. 00:06:47.110 --> 00:06:49.290 And for the fans, I mean, the community fan base 00:06:49.290 --> 00:06:53.069 was and is incredibly devoted. That felt like 00:06:53.069 --> 00:06:55.449 it. The darkest timeline had arrived for you. 00:06:55.470 --> 00:06:57.209 It was a huge rupture. Yep. Professionally, personally. 00:06:57.430 --> 00:06:59.389 But what's fascinating is how the narrative that 00:06:59.389 --> 00:07:01.250 followed kind of mirrored the structures he loves. 00:07:01.350 --> 00:07:03.529 How so? Well, the audience, the community around 00:07:03.529 --> 00:07:06.459 the show, they rallied. Yeah. Fiercely. Season 00:07:06.459 --> 00:07:08.779 four without him. It just didn't feel right. 00:07:08.860 --> 00:07:10.600 His absence was obvious. Oh, people noticed. 00:07:10.899 --> 00:07:13.420 Definitely. And then June 2013, he officially 00:07:13.420 --> 00:07:15.560 confirms he's coming back. Co -show running season 00:07:15.560 --> 00:07:18.519 five with Chris McKenna. It was like the darkest 00:07:18.519 --> 00:07:21.180 timeline averted. The brightest timeline restored. 00:07:21.379 --> 00:07:24.439 The hero returns. But even with him back and 00:07:24.439 --> 00:07:27.180 the critics liking it again. NBC still canceled 00:07:27.180 --> 00:07:30.360 it after season five. Right. But then this is 00:07:30.360 --> 00:07:32.480 where the changing media landscape kicks in, 00:07:32.500 --> 00:07:35.540 that fan devotion. It translated into this unusual 00:07:35.540 --> 00:07:40.680 streaming revival. Yahoo. Screen, of all places. 00:07:40.860 --> 00:07:43.060 Yeah, remember Yahoo? Screen. They picked it 00:07:43.060 --> 00:07:46.939 up for a 13 -episode sixth season in 2014. It 00:07:46.939 --> 00:07:48.920 was one of the early, really powerful examples 00:07:48.920 --> 00:07:51.699 of a fan community basically willing a show back 00:07:51.699 --> 00:07:54.810 into existence. Six seasons and a movie. That 00:07:54.810 --> 00:07:57.329 became the rallying cry. And that legacy, that 00:07:57.329 --> 00:08:00.490 phrase, it still fuels hope. Our sources actually 00:08:00.490 --> 00:08:03.370 confirm a 2024 update that the script for the 00:08:03.370 --> 00:08:05.629 long, long promised community movie is apparently 00:08:05.629 --> 00:08:08.110 ready. Wow. So the project is actually in the 00:08:08.110 --> 00:08:10.649 works for real this time. Seems like it. The 00:08:10.649 --> 00:08:12.509 script exists. Things are moving. OK, but let's 00:08:12.509 --> 00:08:14.810 rewind a bit. Back to that crucial time right 00:08:14.810 --> 00:08:16.769 after he got fired in 2012. His professional 00:08:16.769 --> 00:08:19.670 life is in chaos. Right. And he transitions into 00:08:19.670 --> 00:08:22.069 something really interesting. Part therapy, part 00:08:22.069 --> 00:08:24.110 performance art, part another structural experiment. 00:08:24.350 --> 00:08:26.790 The podcast Harmontown. Which had started before, 00:08:26.930 --> 00:08:28.949 hadn't it? Monthly? Yeah, it started back in 00:08:28.949 --> 00:08:31.810 May 2011. Just monthly. But the moment he got 00:08:31.810 --> 00:08:34.990 fired from community, boom. He ramps it up. Weekly. 00:08:35.610 --> 00:08:38.830 Cathartic. Public. With Jeff B. Davis co -hosting. 00:08:38.830 --> 00:08:41.409 It became this sort of public forum for him to 00:08:41.409 --> 00:08:44.250 work through his stuff, his anxieties, his creative 00:08:44.250 --> 00:08:47.450 ideas. Exactly. And what's really crucial about 00:08:47.450 --> 00:08:50.309 Harmontown, especially for his later work, is 00:08:50.309 --> 00:08:52.730 how it cemented the influence of Dungeons & Dragons. 00:08:52.970 --> 00:08:56.210 Ah, the RPG segment. Yeah. Every show had this 00:08:56.210 --> 00:08:59.149 long, extended segment where they played pen 00:08:59.149 --> 00:09:01.350 and paper role playing games, started with D 00:09:01.350 --> 00:09:03.429 &D, then they switched to Shadowrun. With Spencer 00:09:03.429 --> 00:09:05.429 Crittenden as the game master. Right. And this 00:09:05.429 --> 00:09:08.450 wasn't just like a fun diversion. It became a 00:09:08.450 --> 00:09:11.049 core structural element of the podcast itself. 00:09:11.129 --> 00:09:13.509 It gave it a framework, right, for all the spontaneous 00:09:13.509 --> 00:09:16.669 talk and chaos. A necessary, rigid framework 00:09:16.669 --> 00:09:19.629 for spontaneous storytelling. And it got so popular 00:09:19.629 --> 00:09:22.190 that segment directly inspired the animated series 00:09:22.190 --> 00:09:25.100 Harmon Quest. And there's a documentary, too, 00:09:25.179 --> 00:09:27.179 wasn't there? Also called Harmontown. Yeah, that 00:09:27.179 --> 00:09:30.139 followed their tour in early 2013. Premiered 00:09:30.139 --> 00:09:32.960 at South by Southwest in 2014. The podcast itself 00:09:32.960 --> 00:09:35.960 eventually ended in December 2019. But for that 00:09:35.960 --> 00:09:39.480 period after the firing, it was his lifeline. 00:09:39.720 --> 00:09:43.200 A place to channel the chaos into something structured, 00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:45.960 something entertaining. Okay. This brings us 00:09:45.960 --> 00:09:49.200 right to it. The core takeaway. The mechanism, 00:09:49.399 --> 00:09:52.559 the engine that lets all that turbulence, biographical, 00:09:52.720 --> 00:09:55.500 creative resolve into stories that actually work. 00:09:55.639 --> 00:09:58.259 Yes. The story circle. Yes. This is the blueprint, 00:09:58.460 --> 00:10:00.059 the thing you really need to understand about 00:10:00.059 --> 00:10:02.340 how he operates. So where did it come from? It's 00:10:02.340 --> 00:10:04.840 a really elegant piece of structural thinking. 00:10:05.080 --> 00:10:07.519 Harmon developed it back in the late 90s. He 00:10:07.519 --> 00:10:09.240 said he was struggling with a screenplay. And 00:10:09.240 --> 00:10:11.559 he recognized that a lot of the writers and directors 00:10:11.559 --> 00:10:13.679 he worked with, especially maybe at Channel 101 00:10:13.679 --> 00:10:16.460 later. they struggled with traditional narrative 00:10:16.460 --> 00:10:18.700 frameworks. You know, they can feel kind of sprawling, 00:10:18.700 --> 00:10:20.460 intimidating. Like the hero's journey stuff, 00:10:20.659 --> 00:10:22.820 Camel. Exactly. So he wanted to find a simpler, 00:10:22.919 --> 00:10:26.019 more symmetrical way to codify that underlying 00:10:26.019 --> 00:10:28.080 structure. Yeah. The thing that powers all great 00:10:28.080 --> 00:10:30.960 stories, basically. So he took Joseph Campbell's 00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:33.940 hero's journey, which is, you know, deep and 00:10:33.940 --> 00:10:36.460 mythological, but maybe not super practical if 00:10:36.460 --> 00:10:38.240 you're staring at a deadline. Right. It can feel 00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:40.360 overwhelming. And he simplified it, distilled 00:10:40.360 --> 00:10:43.659 it down. Into this accessible eight step. circular 00:10:43.659 --> 00:10:46.960 process designed to reliably crank out coherent 00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:50.379 narratives. Especially useful, he thought, for 00:10:50.379 --> 00:10:52.879 his Channel 101 collaborators who needed practical 00:10:52.879 --> 00:10:56.120 plotting tools fast. He said it was like tattooed 00:10:56.120 --> 00:10:57.860 on his brain, right? Because it applies to everything. 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:00.240 Yeah, it's universality. Any character, any story, 00:11:00.240 --> 00:11:02.759 short sketch, feature film, TV episode, you can 00:11:02.759 --> 00:11:05.340 map it onto the circle. Let's walk through the 00:11:05.340 --> 00:11:07.779 steps. Imagine it like a clock face starting 00:11:07.779 --> 00:11:10.759 at the top, 12 o 'clock. Okay. Step one. A character 00:11:10.759 --> 00:11:13.559 is in a zone of comfort or familiarity. This 00:11:13.559 --> 00:11:16.259 is just the starting point. The status quo. Their 00:11:16.259 --> 00:11:19.080 normal world. Got it. Baseline established. Step 00:11:19.080 --> 00:11:22.100 two. They desire something. There's a need, an 00:11:22.100 --> 00:11:24.379 itch, something they want internally or externally. 00:11:24.740 --> 00:11:27.799 And crucially, this desire upsets the balance 00:11:27.799 --> 00:11:30.419 of step one. It creates the impulse to move. 00:11:30.639 --> 00:11:33.200 Makes sense. Step three. They enter an unfamiliar 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:36.509 situation. This is crossing the threshold, leaving 00:11:36.509 --> 00:11:39.029 the known world, going into the unknown. Sometimes 00:11:39.029 --> 00:11:41.370 it's literal, like jumping through a portal in 00:11:41.370 --> 00:11:43.029 Rick and Morty. Or it could be metaphorical, 00:11:43.049 --> 00:11:44.769 like joining a study group with strangers and 00:11:44.769 --> 00:11:47.610 community. Exactly. Unfamiliar territory. Step 00:11:47.610 --> 00:11:50.470 four, they adapt to that situation. They have 00:11:50.470 --> 00:11:52.710 to learn the rules of this new world, survive 00:11:52.710 --> 00:11:55.889 the initial challenges, overcome hurdles. This 00:11:55.889 --> 00:11:57.370 is often where the character confronts their 00:11:57.370 --> 00:12:00.049 flaws or maybe learns new skills. Okay, adapting. 00:12:00.649 --> 00:12:03.370 Then step five. They get that which they wanted. 00:12:03.450 --> 00:12:05.549 They achieve the goal they set out for back in 00:12:05.549 --> 00:12:08.610 step two. This is often like the midpoint climax 00:12:08.610 --> 00:12:10.750 of the central achievement, a temporary high 00:12:10.750 --> 00:12:14.629 maybe. Success, but then step six. They pay a 00:12:14.629 --> 00:12:16.929 heavy price for it. Ah, yes, the consequence. 00:12:17.210 --> 00:12:19.509 This is often the real climax or the darkest 00:12:19.509 --> 00:12:22.070 point. The true cost of the journey is revealed. 00:12:22.570 --> 00:12:25.610 Moral compromises, painful realizations, actual 00:12:25.610 --> 00:12:28.450 losses. Okay, step seven. The return to their 00:12:28.450 --> 00:12:31.399 familiar situation. The journey back home. Bringing 00:12:31.399 --> 00:12:33.360 the prize or the knowledge or maybe just the 00:12:33.360 --> 00:12:36.399 scars from the ordeal. And finally, step eight. 00:12:36.600 --> 00:12:38.480 They have changed as a result of the journey. 00:12:39.059 --> 00:12:42.909 The circle completes. A new status quo is established, 00:12:43.210 --> 00:12:45.330 but the character isn't quite the same person 00:12:45.330 --> 00:12:48.070 they were back in step one. They've learned something, 00:12:48.289 --> 00:12:51.529 grown, or maybe just been permanently altered. 00:12:51.830 --> 00:12:54.250 Okay, listing the steps is helpful, but let's 00:12:54.250 --> 00:12:56.610 see it in action. Because just knowing the steps 00:12:56.610 --> 00:12:59.309 isn't the same as seeing how he uses it. Like, 00:12:59.309 --> 00:13:01.889 take that famous community episode, Remedial 00:13:01.889 --> 00:13:04.710 Chaos Theory. Oh, perfect example. The one with 00:13:04.710 --> 00:13:06.450 the dice roll creating seven different timelines. 00:13:06.690 --> 00:13:08.610 Yeah. How does the circle apply there, like, 00:13:08.629 --> 00:13:11.279 instantly? Okay, so step one. The comfort zone 00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:13.340 is just the gang hanging out in the apartment. 00:13:13.500 --> 00:13:16.139 Simple gathering. Right. Step two, the desire. 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:17.840 Someone needs to go get the pizza downstairs. 00:13:18.120 --> 00:13:21.620 Simple goal. Then step three, entering the unfamiliar. 00:13:22.539 --> 00:13:24.860 Whichever character the dice chooses leaves the 00:13:24.860 --> 00:13:27.200 room. They enter the unfamiliar situation of 00:13:27.200 --> 00:13:30.159 the hallway or just being separated, initiating 00:13:30.159 --> 00:13:32.200 that timeline's unique chain of events. Okay. 00:13:32.340 --> 00:13:35.970 Step four, adapting. They adapt to whatever chaos 00:13:35.970 --> 00:13:38.330 unfolds in the room while they're gone or deal 00:13:38.330 --> 00:13:40.429 with what happens in the hallway. Step five. 00:13:40.490 --> 00:13:42.450 They get what they wanted. They grab the pizza. 00:13:42.549 --> 00:13:46.529 Got it. Step six. The heavy price. That's the 00:13:46.529 --> 00:13:48.950 timeline collapsing or descending into the darkest 00:13:48.950 --> 00:13:51.289 timeline where everything goes wrong. Pierce 00:13:51.289 --> 00:13:54.230 gets shot. Troy loses his larynx. Right. The 00:13:54.230 --> 00:13:57.629 bad stuff. Step seven. Return. They come back 00:13:57.629 --> 00:13:59.730 into the room, returning to the familiar situation. 00:14:00.230 --> 00:14:04.639 And step eight. The change. Well, in that episode, 00:14:04.799 --> 00:14:08.039 it's often Abed realizing the implications or 00:14:08.039 --> 00:14:10.960 the group collectively understanding the potential 00:14:10.960 --> 00:14:13.509 for that darkest timeline, right? Right. the 00:14:13.509 --> 00:14:15.850 core group is usually reset for the next role. 00:14:16.070 --> 00:14:19.250 Exactly. It's contained. The change allows them 00:14:19.250 --> 00:14:22.350 to maybe avoid the worst outcome next time, but 00:14:22.350 --> 00:14:24.789 the fundamental group dynamic is preserved. It's 00:14:24.789 --> 00:14:27.309 micro -level application over and over. And he's 00:14:27.309 --> 00:14:29.110 talked about the deeper meaning behind this, 00:14:29.129 --> 00:14:31.169 right? Not just the mechanics, but the why, especially 00:14:31.169 --> 00:14:33.509 around entering the unfamiliar part. Oh, yeah. 00:14:33.590 --> 00:14:35.669 He gets quite philosophical. He specifically 00:14:35.669 --> 00:14:37.629 references Campbell again when talking about 00:14:37.629 --> 00:14:39.789 steps three and four, entering that unfamiliar 00:14:39.789 --> 00:14:42.139 situation. And what does Campbell call it? Campbell 00:14:42.139 --> 00:14:44.480 evokes the image of the hero entering a digestive 00:14:44.480 --> 00:14:47.059 tract, the underworld, the belly of the whale. 00:14:47.240 --> 00:14:50.320 Where the hero is broken down, stripped of their 00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:53.240 everyday tools and defenses, their neuroses, 00:14:53.419 --> 00:14:56.519 their fears, their modern comforts, like, you 00:14:56.519 --> 00:14:59.200 know, asthma inhalers, credit cards, cell phones. 00:14:59.559 --> 00:15:01.200 Because none of that stuff works down there. 00:15:01.340 --> 00:15:03.120 Exactly. It can't save him in the unconscious 00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:06.360 basement of the unfamiliar. The purpose of this 00:15:06.360 --> 00:15:09.379 stage, Harmon argues following Campbell, is forced 00:15:09.379 --> 00:15:12.460 simplification. To survive that bottom half of 00:15:12.460 --> 00:15:15.539 the circle, the character has to become refreshingly 00:15:15.539 --> 00:15:18.320 and frighteningly simple. They have to rely on 00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:21.860 core instincts, basic truths. That makes so much 00:15:21.860 --> 00:15:24.740 sense for Rick Sanchez. All his genius tech often 00:15:24.740 --> 00:15:27.100 fails him and he's forced into these really raw, 00:15:27.340 --> 00:15:30.620 simple, emotional or physical fights. Precisely. 00:15:30.879 --> 00:15:33.100 The sci -fi chaos is just the setting for that 00:15:33.100 --> 00:15:35.139 forced digestive process stripping him down. 00:15:35.220 --> 00:15:37.120 And it's not just Campbell influencing him, right? 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:39.259 There are others. Definitely. You can see echoes 00:15:39.259 --> 00:15:41.399 of Christopher Vogler's book, The Writer's Journey. 00:15:41.559 --> 00:15:44.659 Vogler specifically wrote that to translate Campbell's 00:15:44.659 --> 00:15:46.620 ideas for screenwriters. Made it very practical. 00:15:46.779 --> 00:15:49.539 And Sid Field, the classic screenwriting guru. 00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:52.860 Yeah, the influence of Field's structural analysis 00:15:52.860 --> 00:15:55.779 is there too. Harmon absorbed all these ideas 00:15:55.779 --> 00:15:58.500 about acts and plot points and distilled them 00:15:58.500 --> 00:16:00.980 even further into his functional symmetrical 00:16:00.980 --> 00:16:03.860 wheel. He often points to Star Wars as a film 00:16:03.860 --> 00:16:06.659 that consciously uses that hero's journey template. 00:16:06.879 --> 00:16:09.740 Okay, so he has this powerful universal structure, 00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:11.980 but then he makes this really crucial distinction 00:16:11.980 --> 00:16:14.120 about how you apply it differently for movies 00:16:14.120 --> 00:16:17.879 versus TV. This is key. This is, I think, the 00:16:17.879 --> 00:16:20.639 secret to his success and longevity in television. 00:16:20.779 --> 00:16:22.299 So what is the difference? How does he use the 00:16:22.299 --> 00:16:24.159 circle differently? Well, he explained it pretty 00:16:24.159 --> 00:16:27.419 clearly. A feature film's job is basically structural 00:16:27.419 --> 00:16:31.299 completion. It needs, in his words, to send you 00:16:31.299 --> 00:16:34.179 out of the theater on a high in 90 minutes. Right. 00:16:34.299 --> 00:16:36.440 You want that satisfying ending, that permanent 00:16:36.440 --> 00:16:38.559 change in the character after the journey. Step 00:16:38.559 --> 00:16:41.720 eight. needs to feel final exactly the story 00:16:41.720 --> 00:16:44.419 circle achieves its full permanent satisfying 00:16:44.419 --> 00:16:48.340 step eight change in a movie but television especially 00:16:48.340 --> 00:16:50.580 a series that's meant to run for years and years 00:16:50.580 --> 00:16:53.259 its job is different what's its job according 00:16:53.259 --> 00:16:55.519 to harman to keep you glued to the television 00:16:55.519 --> 00:16:58.480 for your entire life his words okay so if the 00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:00.659 show needs to be renewable basically infinite 00:17:01.320 --> 00:17:03.440 You can't let the characters change too much 00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:06.420 or permanently solve their core problems. Exactly 00:17:06.420 --> 00:17:08.900 right. The difference lies almost entirely in 00:17:08.900 --> 00:17:10.839 how you handle step eight for television. So 00:17:10.839 --> 00:17:13.539 how do you handle it? For TV, Harmon argues, 00:17:13.819 --> 00:17:16.279 the focus of step eight is less about permanent 00:17:16.279 --> 00:17:19.259 fundamental character growth, you know, riling 00:17:19.259 --> 00:17:22.279 things up definitively, and more about getting 00:17:22.279 --> 00:17:24.420 things back to where they started, at least emotionally 00:17:24.420 --> 00:17:27.779 or situationally. Ah, the reset button. Kind 00:17:27.779 --> 00:17:30.140 of. The character learns a lesson, maybe, often 00:17:30.140 --> 00:17:33.640 a painful one. But the core conflict, the essential 00:17:33.640 --> 00:17:35.980 flaw or dynamic that drives the whole show's 00:17:35.980 --> 00:17:39.319 premise, that has to remain mostly intact. So 00:17:39.319 --> 00:17:41.460 the circle can begin again next week. So Rick 00:17:41.460 --> 00:17:44.019 and Morty have these insane universe -altering 00:17:44.019 --> 00:17:45.480 adventures. Right. They go through the whole 00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:47.859 circle, pay heavy prices. But at the end of the 00:17:47.859 --> 00:17:50.579 episode, or maybe the season arc, Rick is still 00:17:50.579 --> 00:17:53.619 fundamentally a brilliant, damaged, cynical guy. 00:17:53.779 --> 00:17:56.480 And Morty is still fundamentally his anxious, 00:17:56.680 --> 00:17:59.900 morally conflicted grandson. Pretty much. Step 00:17:59.900 --> 00:18:02.319 eight brings them back, maybe slightly altered, 00:18:02.440 --> 00:18:04.940 maybe with a new memory or trauma, but ready 00:18:04.940 --> 00:18:07.019 for the next cycle. The engine needs to keep 00:18:07.019 --> 00:18:10.140 running. That is structurally brilliant. Kind 00:18:10.140 --> 00:18:12.779 of cynical, maybe, but brilliant. Manipulating 00:18:12.779 --> 00:18:14.980 the final step of the narrative engine to ensure 00:18:14.980 --> 00:18:18.380 episodic stasis or slow change, allowing for 00:18:18.380 --> 00:18:21.480 infinite content. It's incredibly effective for 00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:24.240 long -form serialized storytelling. And that 00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:26.779 approach, that structural thinking, it fueled 00:18:26.779 --> 00:18:29.000 the creation of his animation work, which often 00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:31.440 ran parallel to Community. Right, Starburns Industries. 00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:34.619 Yep. He co -founded that in 2010, actually, during 00:18:34.619 --> 00:18:36.440 the first season of Community. And one of his 00:18:36.440 --> 00:18:39.279 partners was Dino Stamatopoulos. Who played Starburns 00:18:39.279 --> 00:18:41.529 on Community. Of course. Perfect Harmon meta 00:18:41.529 --> 00:18:44.069 touch. Blending the show and the business. Totally. 00:18:44.150 --> 00:18:46.730 And Starburns Industries, they immediately showed 00:18:46.730 --> 00:18:48.690 they could handle complex animation, not just 00:18:48.690 --> 00:18:50.869 live action comedy. They did the stop motion 00:18:50.869 --> 00:18:52.890 community episode, right? The Christmas one. 00:18:53.009 --> 00:18:55.450 Yeah. In their very first year. Yeah. And they 00:18:55.450 --> 00:18:58.410 won an Emmy for it. Outstanding achievement in 00:18:58.410 --> 00:19:01.190 animation right out of the gate. Wow. So they 00:19:01.190 --> 00:19:03.369 became a real player in adult animation pretty 00:19:03.369 --> 00:19:06.170 quickly. A significant engine. They were crucial 00:19:06.170 --> 00:19:08.640 in getting Rick and Morty off the ground. They 00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:11.079 also produced Charlie Kaufman's Anomaliza. The 00:19:11.079 --> 00:19:13.779 stop -motion film. That was them. Yep. Oscar 00:19:13.779 --> 00:19:17.599 -nominated. Highly respected. They also did Bubbles, 00:19:17.720 --> 00:19:20.720 that unproduced script about Michael Jackson's 00:19:20.720 --> 00:19:24.680 chimp, and HarmonQuest, of course, and HBO's 00:19:24.680 --> 00:19:26.900 Animals. So Harmon's structural approach wasn't 00:19:26.900 --> 00:19:29.359 just for writing. It extended to production across 00:19:29.359 --> 00:19:31.740 different animation styles. It seems that way. 00:19:31.779 --> 00:19:34.539 He had this capacity to apply structural thinking 00:19:34.539 --> 00:19:37.380 to the whole creative and production process. 00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:39.960 But that partnership, Starburns, it didn't last 00:19:39.960 --> 00:19:42.420 forever. No, Harmon left the company in 2020. 00:19:42.779 --> 00:19:45.359 And our sources note that the studio's output 00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:48.579 kind of declined steadily after he left. Suggests 00:19:48.579 --> 00:19:50.500 his vision was pretty central to their success, 00:19:50.680 --> 00:19:53.019 even if he wasn't like animating every frame 00:19:53.019 --> 00:19:55.279 himself. Yeah, it seems his creative drive and 00:19:55.279 --> 00:19:58.339 structural oversight were major factors. And 00:19:58.339 --> 00:20:01.000 his focus increasingly pivoted to the absolute 00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:03.259 monster hit of his career. Which actually started 00:20:03.259 --> 00:20:05.539 during that gap year when he was fired from Community. 00:20:05.920 --> 00:20:08.059 Exactly. Rick and Morty. Developed with Justin 00:20:08.059 --> 00:20:11.000 Roiland during that involuntary break, Adult 00:20:11.000 --> 00:20:14.519 Swim ordered the pilot in 2012. Show premieres 00:20:14.519 --> 00:20:18.670 December 2013. And the premise, this. Brilliant 00:20:18.670 --> 00:20:21.670 but totally nihilistic inventor Rick dragging 00:20:21.670 --> 00:20:25.410 his anxious grandson Morty on these insane interdimensional 00:20:25.410 --> 00:20:28.609 adventures. It was the perfect vehicle for infinite 00:20:28.609 --> 00:20:32.289 story circles. Cosmic chaos contained by episodic 00:20:32.289 --> 00:20:34.869 structure. And it just exploded became a cultural 00:20:34.869 --> 00:20:37.950 phenomenon almost instantly. It proved his structure 00:20:37.950 --> 00:20:41.130 could handle like universe level stakes just 00:20:41.130 --> 00:20:43.490 as easily as community college relationship drama. 00:20:43.789 --> 00:20:46.230 Absolutely. And the network's faith in it was 00:20:46.230 --> 00:20:49.259 just massive. Remember in 2018, Adult Swim renewed 00:20:49.259 --> 00:20:53.359 it for 70 more episodes? Unprecedented. 70. That's 00:20:53.359 --> 00:20:55.799 insane commitment. And Harmon voices Bird Person, 00:20:55.900 --> 00:20:58.200 right? It is. Recurring character. Iconic voice. 00:20:58.380 --> 00:21:00.200 There was that Collider interview that really 00:21:00.200 --> 00:21:02.000 nailed the show's success, didn't it? It said 00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:04.119 it was the marriage of two things. Right. Harmon's 00:21:04.119 --> 00:21:06.359 adeptness for structure and character. Providing 00:21:06.359 --> 00:21:08.440 the reliable engine. Combined with co -creator 00:21:08.440 --> 00:21:11.660 Justin Roiland's insanely creative slash sometimes 00:21:11.660 --> 00:21:15.170 insane mind. Yeah. Like Harmon built the perfect 00:21:15.170 --> 00:21:18.789 circular train track and Roiland just threw every 00:21:18.789 --> 00:21:21.910 possible obstacle, monster and alternate dimension 00:21:21.910 --> 00:21:24.549 onto it. That's a great way to put it. And that 00:21:24.549 --> 00:21:27.529 structure that Harmon provided framework really 00:21:27.529 --> 00:21:29.849 proved its resilience recently. You mean with 00:21:29.849 --> 00:21:32.029 the situation with Roiland? Yeah. In January 00:21:32.029 --> 00:21:35.410 2023, Roiland was dismissed from the show following 00:21:35.410 --> 00:21:38.119 domestic violence charges. Harmon became the 00:21:38.119 --> 00:21:40.059 sole showrunner. And we should definitely note, 00:21:40.119 --> 00:21:42.680 just for factual clarity, that Roiland was later 00:21:42.680 --> 00:21:44.819 clear of those charges. The case was dismissed 00:21:44.819 --> 00:21:47.180 due to insufficient evidence. Absolutely critical 00:21:47.180 --> 00:21:49.460 point. But during that period of uncertainty, 00:21:49.839 --> 00:21:52.559 the show continued. The structural stability 00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:55.039 that Harmon provided allowed Rick and Morty to 00:21:55.039 --> 00:21:57.960 keep going, almost without missing a beat, even 00:21:57.960 --> 00:22:00.450 with such a major change. And his work just keeps 00:22:00.450 --> 00:22:02.890 coming. The industry clearly still believes in 00:22:02.890 --> 00:22:04.890 his ability to deliver these structurally sound 00:22:04.890 --> 00:22:07.670 popular shows. He launched Kropopolis recently. 00:22:07.789 --> 00:22:10.650 Right. Set in ancient Greece, Fox greenlit that 00:22:10.650 --> 00:22:13.210 back in 2020. And the commitment from Fox on 00:22:13.210 --> 00:22:15.170 that one is huge too, isn't it? It's immense. 00:22:15.390 --> 00:22:18.609 The show premiered in 2023, but they'd already 00:22:18.609 --> 00:22:20.690 renewed it through season five before season 00:22:20.690 --> 00:22:23.130 three even premiered. Wow. That's betting big 00:22:23.130 --> 00:22:25.500 on the creator. It really cements his position 00:22:25.500 --> 00:22:28.400 as like one of the key structural minds in TV 00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:30.559 right now. No question. We should also quickly 00:22:30.559 --> 00:22:32.099 mention that other project, the Kurt Vonnegut 00:22:32.099 --> 00:22:36.460 adaptation, The Sirens of Titan. Ah, yeah. Announced 00:22:36.460 --> 00:22:39.839 back in 2017. Not many updates since around 2021, 00:22:40.140 --> 00:22:42.420 but the fact he was tackling that book. Which 00:22:42.420 --> 00:22:46.640 is so Vonnegut heavy on fatalism, free will, 00:22:46.880 --> 00:22:50.119 cosmic absurdity, interventions. It just underlines 00:22:50.119 --> 00:22:52.200 the kind of philosophical depth he's always reaching 00:22:52.200 --> 00:22:54.720 for, even within the comedy structures. Fits 00:22:54.720 --> 00:22:57.059 his preoccupations perfectly. So to really get 00:22:57.059 --> 00:22:59.579 the full picture of Harmon's work, we kind of 00:22:59.579 --> 00:23:01.480 have to look at the person behind it, too. The 00:23:01.480 --> 00:23:04.079 writer, the public figure. His creative voice 00:23:04.079 --> 00:23:06.420 seems so tied up with his identity. Very much 00:23:06.420 --> 00:23:08.440 so. And that intersects. where the personal meets 00:23:08.440 --> 00:23:11.039 the artistic, it became really clear when he 00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:12.720 was writing a specific character on community. 00:23:13.160 --> 00:23:16.160 Abed -Nadir. Exactly. While he was developing 00:23:16.160 --> 00:23:18.759 Abed, researching the traits, Harmon started 00:23:18.759 --> 00:23:21.619 to see parallels. He began to suspect he might 00:23:21.619 --> 00:23:23.180 share some of those characteristics himself. 00:23:23.700 --> 00:23:26.240 And he eventually concluded he was on the autism 00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:28.859 spectrum after seeing a doctor? That's right. 00:23:28.960 --> 00:23:31.420 It was a significant self -discovery, and he 00:23:31.420 --> 00:23:33.099 said it was crucial for his understanding of 00:23:33.099 --> 00:23:35.839 himself and his writing. He specifically said, 00:23:35.920 --> 00:23:38.240 I started to discover that I had a lot more in 00:23:38.240 --> 00:23:40.480 common with Abed than I did with Jeff Winger. 00:23:40.740 --> 00:23:44.420 Wow. And you can really feel that insight in 00:23:44.420 --> 00:23:47.400 his work, can't you? The authenticity and portraying 00:23:47.400 --> 00:23:49.579 characters who are maybe brilliant logically, 00:23:49.819 --> 00:23:52.640 but feel kind of emotionally isolated or process 00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:55.319 the world differently. It adds this layer of 00:23:55.319 --> 00:23:57.920 vulnerability. Absolutely. And that complexity, 00:23:58.059 --> 00:24:00.640 that mix of logic and vulnerability, it's also 00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:02.680 reflected in the huge range of things that influenced 00:24:02.680 --> 00:24:05.160 him creatively. It's not just one thing. Yeah, 00:24:05.200 --> 00:24:07.319 the list is pretty wild. High culture, low culture. 00:24:07.460 --> 00:24:09.799 It's a fantastic mix. He talks about classic, 00:24:09.900 --> 00:24:13.119 structurally complex films like Robocop. Love 00:24:13.119 --> 00:24:17.740 Robocop. And Network. Patty Chayefsky. Then foundational 00:24:17.740 --> 00:24:20.880 TV like Cheers. The writing on Cheers is incredible. 00:24:21.160 --> 00:24:23.359 And the surrealism of Twin Peaks. Okay, that 00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:26.630 makes sense. And books. leans towards the absurd, 00:24:26.890 --> 00:24:29.990 the philosophical, Vonnegut. Again, it's Logger 00:24:29.990 --> 00:24:32.089 House 5. And critically for Rick and Morty, The 00:24:32.089 --> 00:24:34.569 Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, he specifically 00:24:34.569 --> 00:24:37.210 cited Adams' work as an influence on the show's 00:24:37.210 --> 00:24:39.710 scale, the interdimensional travel, the tone. 00:24:40.269 --> 00:24:42.390 But then there's really unexpected ones, too. 00:24:42.450 --> 00:24:45.009 Like, didn't he talk about an evolutionary anthropologist? 00:24:45.349 --> 00:24:47.849 Yeah, Elaine Morgan and specifically her work 00:24:47.849 --> 00:24:49.950 on the aquatic ape hypothesis. The what now? 00:24:50.109 --> 00:24:53.410 It's this less mainstream idea about human evolution 00:24:53.410 --> 00:24:55.930 involving an aquatic phase. Carmen called it 00:24:55.930 --> 00:24:58.710 a peaceful. Interesting mythical concept. OK, 00:24:58.769 --> 00:25:00.450 that's definitely esoteric, but it shows how 00:25:00.450 --> 00:25:02.390 he finds inspiration everywhere, right? Pulling 00:25:02.390 --> 00:25:04.470 narrative ideas from science, even French science, 00:25:04.509 --> 00:25:07.750 history, pop culture, building his unique worlds. 00:25:08.009 --> 00:25:11.289 Exactly. But this very public, very complex personality. 00:25:12.029 --> 00:25:14.910 It's also meant he's faced some intense public 00:25:14.910 --> 00:25:18.170 scrutiny over his conduct and how he's handled 00:25:18.170 --> 00:25:20.210 that, how he's addressed accountability. That's 00:25:20.210 --> 00:25:22.210 become part of his public story, too. Right. 00:25:22.349 --> 00:25:24.589 The most significant incident involved Megan 00:25:24.589 --> 00:25:27.420 Gantz, who was a writer on Community. In 2018, 00:25:27.619 --> 00:25:29.779 she spoke about his behavior towards her. Yeah, 00:25:29.819 --> 00:25:32.279 she detailed his inappropriate advances and how 00:25:32.279 --> 00:25:34.539 he treated her after she rejected them. It was 00:25:34.539 --> 00:25:36.700 a really serious situation. And Harmon's response 00:25:36.700 --> 00:25:40.079 was unusual for a public figure, wasn't it? He 00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:42.259 addressed it directly on his podcast, Harmontown. 00:25:42.339 --> 00:25:44.460 He did. He gave this really lengthy, detailed 00:25:44.460 --> 00:25:47.619 apology. Didn't shy away from specifics. He talked 00:25:47.619 --> 00:25:50.359 about making the advances, admitted he mistreated 00:25:50.359 --> 00:25:52.680 her, retaliated professionally because his ego 00:25:52.680 --> 00:25:55.099 was hurt. It was raw, uncomfortable listening. 00:25:55.450 --> 00:25:58.170 But crucially, what was Ganz's reaction to that 00:25:58.170 --> 00:26:01.029 apology? That's the important part. She publicly 00:26:01.029 --> 00:26:04.089 accepted it. She said she felt vindicated by 00:26:04.089 --> 00:26:06.470 him taking responsibility so thoroughly and publicly. 00:26:06.730 --> 00:26:09.549 She actually called it a masterclass in how to 00:26:09.549 --> 00:26:13.450 apologize. So the transparency, however difficult, 00:26:13.690 --> 00:26:16.549 was ultimately seen by the person he harmed as 00:26:16.549 --> 00:26:19.720 a sincere attempt at making amends. Okay. Then 00:26:19.720 --> 00:26:21.299 there was another controversy around the same 00:26:21.299 --> 00:26:24.640 time, 2018, involving an old video resurfacing, 00:26:24.839 --> 00:26:29.319 the Daryl skit from 2009. Ah, yeah. That was 00:26:29.319 --> 00:26:31.839 a parody of the show, Dexter. And it involved 00:26:31.839 --> 00:26:35.440 Harmon simulating. Well... A disturbing scenario 00:26:35.440 --> 00:26:38.359 with a baby doll. It was widely condemned as 00:26:38.359 --> 00:26:40.819 offensive, distasteful. How did he handle that 00:26:40.819 --> 00:26:43.079 one? He responded pretty quickly. Public apology, 00:26:43.299 --> 00:26:45.819 called the content distasteful, said he realized 00:26:45.819 --> 00:26:47.640 it was inappropriate soon after making it and 00:26:47.640 --> 00:26:50.619 had removed it himself back then. Adult Swim, 00:26:50.640 --> 00:26:52.599 his network for Rick and Morty, they criticized 00:26:52.599 --> 00:26:54.299 the video but said they were satisfied with his 00:26:54.299 --> 00:26:56.599 apology. There was some confusion at the time, 00:26:56.599 --> 00:26:58.460 though, about why he deleted his Twitter account 00:26:58.460 --> 00:27:00.599 right around then. People linked it to the skit 00:27:00.599 --> 00:27:04.089 backlash. Right. That was widely reported. But 00:27:04.089 --> 00:27:06.490 incorrectly, it seems. Harmon later clarified 00:27:06.490 --> 00:27:08.930 he actually deleted Twitter in solidarity with 00:27:08.930 --> 00:27:11.650 James Gunn, the director, who'd just been fired 00:27:11.650 --> 00:27:15.009 by Disney over old controversial tweets. So the 00:27:15.009 --> 00:27:17.309 timing was coincidental, according to him. OK, 00:27:17.410 --> 00:27:20.430 so despite all this turbulence, the personal 00:27:20.430 --> 00:27:23.309 controversies, the self -inflicted drama sometimes. 00:27:24.410 --> 00:27:27.509 His actual creative output keeps getting recognized 00:27:27.509 --> 00:27:29.670 at the highest levels. Definitely. The awards 00:27:29.670 --> 00:27:32.029 confirm the impact. His most consistent recent 00:27:32.029 --> 00:27:34.150 recognition has been for Rick and Morty, obviously. 00:27:34.309 --> 00:27:36.289 Two Emmys for Outstanding Animated Program, right? 00:27:36.349 --> 00:27:40.450 2018 and 2020. As executive producer. Yep. Thoroughly 00:27:40.450 --> 00:27:43.049 deserved for the show's quality and impact. But 00:27:43.049 --> 00:27:45.450 what really shows his range, I think, is that 00:27:45.450 --> 00:27:48.210 other Emmy win. Much earlier, much more specific. 00:27:48.230 --> 00:27:51.059 Which one was that? 2009. outstanding original 00:27:51.059 --> 00:27:53.599 music and lyrics for the Hugh Jackman opening 00:27:53.599 --> 00:27:55.819 number at the Oscars. Wait, he wrote the lyrics 00:27:55.819 --> 00:27:57.619 for Hugh Jackman's opening number at the Academy 00:27:57.619 --> 00:27:59.920 Awards? He co -wrote them, yeah. Won an Emmy 00:27:59.920 --> 00:28:01.740 for it. So he's an Emmy -winning comedy writer, 00:28:01.880 --> 00:28:04.339 an Emmy -winning animation producer, and an Emmy 00:28:04.339 --> 00:28:07.539 -winning lyricist. Quite a range. That's incredible 00:28:07.539 --> 00:28:10.400 versatility. And didn't Community get nominated 00:28:10.400 --> 00:28:13.380 for a different kind of major award? Not an Emmy. 00:28:13.559 --> 00:28:15.700 Yeah. He and Chris McKenna were nominated for 00:28:15.700 --> 00:28:18.579 a Hugo Award. That's the big award for science 00:28:18.579 --> 00:28:20.640 fiction and fantasy literature and media. For 00:28:20.640 --> 00:28:23.319 which episode? For writing Remedial Chaos Theory. 00:28:23.700 --> 00:28:26.740 The dice roll episode again. It shows that the 00:28:26.740 --> 00:28:29.380 sci -fi and fantasy community recognized the 00:28:29.380 --> 00:28:32.880 sheer craft and structural gamesmanship in that 00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:36.230 episode as being top -tier genre writing. Wow. 00:28:36.269 --> 00:28:38.349 And just to bring it full circle back to life, 00:28:38.450 --> 00:28:41.349 imitating art or maybe feeling it. He's engaged 00:28:41.349 --> 00:28:43.589 to Cody Heller, another writer. Right. And she 00:28:43.589 --> 00:28:45.609 actually adapted a real life experience she had 00:28:45.609 --> 00:28:49.009 with Harmon into a TV series called Dummy starring 00:28:49.009 --> 00:28:51.430 Anna Kendrick. So once again, for Dan Harmon, 00:28:51.650 --> 00:28:54.049 life is source material. And the story circle 00:28:54.049 --> 00:28:56.089 is probably structuring the narrative of his 00:28:56.089 --> 00:28:58.029 own life, whether he plans it or not. It really 00:28:58.029 --> 00:28:59.730 feels that way sometimes. Yeah. Which brings 00:28:59.730 --> 00:29:01.789 us to the synthesis, pulling it all together. 00:29:01.910 --> 00:29:04.029 Yeah. The big takeaway about Dan Harmon. Which 00:29:04.029 --> 00:29:06.630 is this paradox, right? Exactly. He's this brilliant 00:29:06.630 --> 00:29:10.210 creator who finds incredible success by imposing 00:29:10.210 --> 00:29:13.730 this rigid, almost mythic structure, the story 00:29:13.730 --> 00:29:16.549 circle, onto these premises that are often... 00:29:17.230 --> 00:29:20.730 deeply chaotic, cynical, even nihilistic sometimes, 00:29:20.950 --> 00:29:23.930 like Rick and Morty. His mind somehow finds this 00:29:23.930 --> 00:29:26.890 reliable, repeatable symmetry within existential 00:29:26.890 --> 00:29:29.490 absurdity. It's quite something. So hopefully 00:29:29.490 --> 00:29:31.950 we've given you the map today. You can see now 00:29:31.950 --> 00:29:34.509 how these incredibly successful, complex stories 00:29:34.509 --> 00:29:37.450 aren't just, you know, spontaneous genius. They're 00:29:37.450 --> 00:29:40.910 built on a foundation of these eight simple, 00:29:40.970 --> 00:29:43.049 repeatable steps. The story circle. The story 00:29:43.049 --> 00:29:45.180 circle. And understanding that structure, that 00:29:45.180 --> 00:29:47.700 mechanism, it leads us to our final provocative 00:29:47.700 --> 00:29:49.400 thought for you to chew on. Okay, let's hear 00:29:49.400 --> 00:29:51.500 it. If Harmon's application of the story circle 00:29:51.500 --> 00:29:53.460 to television means that step eight, the change, 00:29:53.579 --> 00:29:56.119 always has to kind of reset things, return the 00:29:56.119 --> 00:29:58.059 character close to where they started, specifically 00:29:58.059 --> 00:30:00.700 to ensure that longevity, that infinite renewability 00:30:00.700 --> 00:30:03.319 over a finite conclusion. Right, keep the show 00:30:03.319 --> 00:30:06.160 going forever. Does that inherently mean that 00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:08.650 the most... commercially successful television 00:30:08.650 --> 00:30:11.430 shows, structurally speaking, are the ones that 00:30:11.430 --> 00:30:13.890 are essentially designed to force their characters, 00:30:14.029 --> 00:30:16.589 like Rick and Morty, to just repeat the same 00:30:16.589 --> 00:30:19.390 fundamental painful lessons over and over and 00:30:19.390 --> 00:30:21.069 over again. Just maybe in a slightly different 00:30:21.069 --> 00:30:23.349 dimension or with slightly different side characters 00:30:23.349 --> 00:30:25.990 forever. Is that the engine of Endless TV?