WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.060 Welcome to the Deep Dive. Today we're really 00:00:03.060 --> 00:00:05.700 immersing ourselves in the world of an artist 00:00:05.700 --> 00:00:08.439 who, well, she operates entirely on her own terms. 00:00:08.560 --> 00:00:10.880 Completely. Blurring the lines between classical 00:00:10.880 --> 00:00:13.740 composition, sprawling literary fiction, and 00:00:13.740 --> 00:00:17.280 this really experimental folk music. Joanna Newsom. 00:00:17.640 --> 00:00:22.120 The voice, the harpist, the wizard of these incredibly 00:00:22.120 --> 00:00:25.510 long narrative songs. That's her. So our mission 00:00:25.510 --> 00:00:27.870 for this deep dive is, I think, pretty crucial. 00:00:27.929 --> 00:00:30.329 We're not just summarizing her career. Oh, not 00:00:30.329 --> 00:00:32.530 at all. We need to synthesize the information, 00:00:32.750 --> 00:00:35.549 really try to explore the central paradox about 00:00:35.549 --> 00:00:38.850 her. Exactly. How did an artist defined by such 00:00:38.850 --> 00:00:41.570 like. intensely complex, highly intellectual 00:00:41.570 --> 00:00:44.170 music. Right, coming from this very strict, almost 00:00:44.170 --> 00:00:46.789 media -free classical background. How did she 00:00:46.789 --> 00:00:49.329 become so well integrated into mainstream American 00:00:49.329 --> 00:00:51.350 culture? You know, collaborating with hip -hop 00:00:51.350 --> 00:00:53.750 icons, starring in Paul Thomas Anderson films. 00:00:53.829 --> 00:00:56.049 And marrying a huge mainstream comedian. It's 00:00:56.049 --> 00:00:58.710 quite the journey. It really is. So let's start 00:00:58.710 --> 00:01:00.649 with the basics, the vital statistics that kind 00:01:00.649 --> 00:01:03.390 of frame this unique path. Joanna Newsom, born 00:01:03.390 --> 00:01:07.790 January 18, 1982, Grass Valley, California. Okay. 00:01:07.909 --> 00:01:10.290 Her main occupations listed are singer -songwriter 00:01:10.290 --> 00:01:13.349 and actress. Her music, well, it defies easy 00:01:13.349 --> 00:01:15.650 categorization, doesn't it? Oh, completely. You've 00:01:15.650 --> 00:01:17.769 got progressive folk, chamber folk, baroque pop, 00:01:18.030 --> 00:01:21.349 indie folk. It's a mix. All centered around her 00:01:21.349 --> 00:01:23.849 signature instrument, the harp. She's got four 00:01:23.849 --> 00:01:27.010 key studio albums. The Milk -Eyed Mender from 00:01:27.010 --> 00:01:31.549 2004, Yawns in 2006, Have One on Me in 2010, 00:01:31.870 --> 00:01:35.269 and then Divers in 2015. A really solid body 00:01:35.269 --> 00:01:37.829 of work there. And yes, the connection we mentioned 00:01:37.829 --> 00:01:40.450 since 2013, married to comedian and actor Andy 00:01:40.450 --> 00:01:43.310 Samberg. That whole high art, low art thing isn't 00:01:43.310 --> 00:01:46.370 just like a fun fact. No, it feels central, doesn't 00:01:46.370 --> 00:01:48.430 it? Especially to her more recent career. It's 00:01:48.430 --> 00:01:50.349 kind of the defining theme we need to unpack. 00:01:50.549 --> 00:01:52.769 And to really get into that paradox, you have 00:01:52.769 --> 00:01:54.709 to start right at the beginning. The source, 00:01:54.870 --> 00:01:58.310 that highly controlled, almost utopian environment 00:01:58.310 --> 00:02:01.209 of her childhood. Nevada City, California. Right. 00:02:01.250 --> 00:02:03.709 Her parents, both doctors, described as progressive 00:02:03.709 --> 00:02:06.209 minded professionals. And kind of idealists. 00:02:06.230 --> 00:02:08.569 That idealism wasn't just theoretical. It created 00:02:08.569 --> 00:02:12.169 this really specific media blackout. Yeah, the 00:02:12.169 --> 00:02:14.710 sources detail that so clearly. It's fascinating. 00:02:14.930 --> 00:02:18.590 She was basically not allowed to watch television 00:02:18.590 --> 00:02:20.830 or listen to the radio. Think about that. Growing 00:02:20.830 --> 00:02:23.509 up in the 80s and 90s in the U .S. without TV 00:02:23.509 --> 00:02:26.870 or radio. It's almost unimaginable now. Her parents 00:02:26.870 --> 00:02:29.879 were hoping to. Protect us from bad influences 00:02:29.879 --> 00:02:32.560 like violent movies or stupid stuff. So he created 00:02:32.560 --> 00:02:35.800 this huge void where pop culture usually sits 00:02:35.800 --> 00:02:38.159 for a kid. And when you take away that constant 00:02:38.159 --> 00:02:41.180 stream of, you know, easily digestible stuff, 00:02:41.400 --> 00:02:43.379 you're almost forcing the child to build their 00:02:43.379 --> 00:02:46.479 own world inside. Exactly. Develop complex narratives, 00:02:46.580 --> 00:02:49.280 internal rhythms, instead of just reacting to 00:02:49.280 --> 00:02:51.580 whatever's on TV. Right. But the house wasn't 00:02:51.580 --> 00:02:54.340 silent, was it? No, far from it. It was filled 00:02:54.340 --> 00:02:56.360 with music, but it was performed music, live 00:02:56.360 --> 00:02:58.639 music in the home, not mass -produced stuff piped 00:02:58.639 --> 00:03:01.560 in. Her father played guitar. Okay. And her mother 00:03:01.560 --> 00:03:04.460 was a classically trained pianist, but also played 00:03:04.460 --> 00:03:06.900 things like the hammer dulcimer, the auto harp, 00:03:07.060 --> 00:03:09.500 even conga drums. Wow, quite a range. So she 00:03:09.500 --> 00:03:12.900 was steeped in this foundation of multi -instrumentalism, 00:03:12.919 --> 00:03:16.879 classical structure from day one, but totally 00:03:16.879 --> 00:03:19.460 shielded from the standard three -minute pop 00:03:19.460 --> 00:03:22.360 song structure. Which leads directly to the harp, 00:03:22.520 --> 00:03:25.360 doesn't it? Such a defining choice. A technically 00:03:25.360 --> 00:03:27.520 demanding instrument historically narrative. 00:03:27.840 --> 00:03:29.800 And she didn't just stumble into it later. She 00:03:29.800 --> 00:03:32.840 wanted it early on. How early? She asked to learn 00:03:32.840 --> 00:03:36.680 the harp at five years old. Five. It just speaks 00:03:36.680 --> 00:03:38.800 to this immediate pull towards something unique 00:03:38.800 --> 00:03:41.430 and challenging. Did she start right away? Well, 00:03:41.469 --> 00:03:43.430 the local instructor actually suggested she start 00:03:43.430 --> 00:03:45.389 with piano first, you know, get the basics down. 00:03:45.509 --> 00:03:47.590 Makes sense. She did that, but then quickly moved 00:03:47.590 --> 00:03:50.270 to the harp. And she said she loved it from the 00:03:50.270 --> 00:03:53.009 first lesson onward. And it wasn't just a casual 00:03:53.009 --> 00:03:55.770 hobby. Oh, no. This is where you see the commitment. 00:03:56.349 --> 00:03:59.129 She progressed really rapidly from the smaller 00:03:59.129 --> 00:04:01.990 Celtic harps, the ones with levers, to a full 00:04:01.990 --> 00:04:04.469 -size pedal harp by the seventh grade. A pedal 00:04:04.469 --> 00:04:07.009 harp. Okay, explain why that jump is so significant. 00:04:07.050 --> 00:04:09.520 What's the difference? Well, it's massive. The 00:04:09.520 --> 00:04:12.259 Celtic harp is mostly diatonic, limited to certain 00:04:12.259 --> 00:04:15.379 keys unless you manually flip levers. It's more 00:04:15.379 --> 00:04:18.600 of a folk instrument in a way. The pedal harp 00:04:18.600 --> 00:04:23.100 is a full classical orchestral instrument. Huge, 00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:25.899 incredibly complex. It uses seven foot pedals 00:04:25.899 --> 00:04:28.399 that change the pitch of the strings, letting 00:04:28.399 --> 00:04:31.279 the harpist play in any key, play fully chromatic 00:04:31.279 --> 00:04:35.060 music. instantly. Mastering that by age 12 or 00:04:35.060 --> 00:04:38.339 13, that requires serious, demanding classical 00:04:38.339 --> 00:04:41.680 training, high physical coordination, deep theoretical 00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:44.000 understanding. It's like the difference between 00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:46.399 learning a few guitar chords and playing classical 00:04:46.399 --> 00:04:48.660 concertos. So it gave her a compositional tool 00:04:48.660 --> 00:04:50.860 way beyond what most singer -songwriters ever 00:04:50.860 --> 00:04:53.420 have access to. Exactly. And that rigor, that 00:04:53.420 --> 00:04:55.240 discipline, it was mirrored in her education 00:04:55.240 --> 00:04:57.600 too, especially the focus on narrative and literature. 00:04:57.939 --> 00:04:59.560 She went to a Waldorf school, right? Yeah. And 00:04:59.560 --> 00:05:01.699 Waldorf schools are known for that intense focus 00:05:01.699 --> 00:05:04.800 on arts, crafts, and crucially, narrative memorization. 00:05:04.920 --> 00:05:06.980 She studied theater there. And learned to memorize 00:05:06.980 --> 00:05:10.399 and recite long poems. Long, often classical 00:05:10.399 --> 00:05:13.199 poems. When you look at her later work, those 00:05:13.199 --> 00:05:17.279 15, 17 -minute songs on Wise, the two -hour sprawl 00:05:17.279 --> 00:05:20.300 of Have One on Me, that Waldorf Foundation seems 00:05:20.300 --> 00:05:23.079 absolutely core. It's like the scaffolding for 00:05:23.079 --> 00:05:25.120 her songwriting. She wasn't thinking in three 00:05:25.120 --> 00:05:27.420 -minute verses. No, she was building these epic 00:05:27.420 --> 00:05:30.519 multi -part poems and setting them to incredibly 00:05:30.519 --> 00:05:32.660 complex music. And she carried that high art 00:05:32.660 --> 00:05:35.240 focus into college, studying composition and 00:05:35.240 --> 00:05:37.579 creative writing at Mills College. Mills College, 00:05:37.740 --> 00:05:40.120 yeah. And it's worth noting, Mills isn't your 00:05:40.120 --> 00:05:42.199 standard conservatory. It has this reputation 00:05:42.199 --> 00:05:45.279 for being avant -garde, experimental. So choosing 00:05:45.279 --> 00:05:47.420 Mills suggests she wasn't just looking to perfect 00:05:47.420 --> 00:05:50.759 classical technique, but maybe... break the rules 00:05:50.759 --> 00:05:53.279 with. I think so. Blend that training with new 00:05:53.279 --> 00:05:56.399 experimental forms. She did end up dropping out, 00:05:56.459 --> 00:05:58.680 though. Why was that? Not for lack of ability, 00:05:58.920 --> 00:06:01.279 it seems. More because she needed to focus entirely 00:06:01.279 --> 00:06:04.160 on her music, her performance career. Okay. And 00:06:04.160 --> 00:06:06.259 her literary influences really underscore this 00:06:06.259 --> 00:06:08.879 depth, don't they? Oh, yeah. Vladimir Nabokov, 00:06:08.939 --> 00:06:11.339 known for that maximalist, intricate, almost 00:06:11.339 --> 00:06:14.220 Baroque prose. And Ernest Hemingway. Famous for 00:06:14.220 --> 00:06:17.319 the exact opposite. Minimalist, pared down, concise. 00:06:18.110 --> 00:06:21.170 So drawing from those two extremes, what does 00:06:21.170 --> 00:06:23.649 that suggest to you? It suggests she's aiming 00:06:23.649 --> 00:06:27.689 for a synthesis, maybe maximizing the scope and 00:06:27.689 --> 00:06:30.509 the language like Nabokov, but trying to keep 00:06:30.509 --> 00:06:32.910 an essential clarity of emotion and theme like 00:06:32.910 --> 00:06:35.610 Hemingway. It's ambitious. It really is. Her 00:06:35.610 --> 00:06:38.470 whole world seems built on this deep, structured. 00:06:38.970 --> 00:06:41.490 artistic expression now before we get to her 00:06:41.490 --> 00:06:43.310 professional career there's one more interesting 00:06:43.310 --> 00:06:46.769 background detail that connection to the california 00:06:46.769 --> 00:06:49.449 establishment ah right the gavin newsom connection 00:06:49.449 --> 00:06:51.850 she's his second cousin twice removed it's a 00:06:51.850 --> 00:06:54.029 great bit of trivia isn't it but maybe more than 00:06:54.029 --> 00:06:57.129 a footnote how so well it just reinforces that 00:06:57.129 --> 00:07:00.209 she comes from this you know deeply rooted professionally 00:07:00.209 --> 00:07:02.490 and politically established california family 00:07:02.490 --> 00:07:05.610 even while she herself was operating way out 00:07:05.610 --> 00:07:08.029 on the experimental fringes of the music scene 00:07:08.029 --> 00:07:10.970 another layer to that paradox the background 00:07:10.970 --> 00:07:14.110 of a political legacy family but her art is just 00:07:14.110 --> 00:07:17.189 uncompromisingly anti -establishment okay so 00:07:17.189 --> 00:07:20.129 that rigorous early life clearly set the stage 00:07:20.129 --> 00:07:22.290 yeah because her career ascent wasn't exactly 00:07:22.290 --> 00:07:25.470 slow was it it feels like it happened quite suddenly 00:07:26.230 --> 00:07:29.029 Driven by the sheer force of her music, she drops 00:07:29.029 --> 00:07:32.029 out of mills, embraces the indie world. Starting 00:07:32.029 --> 00:07:35.569 with that classic DIY approach. Recorded two 00:07:35.569 --> 00:07:38.410 EPs herself, Walnut Whales and Yarn and Glue, 00:07:38.610 --> 00:07:41.649 around 2002 -2003. And these weren't intended 00:07:41.649 --> 00:07:44.149 as big releases? No, apparently they were really 00:07:44.149 --> 00:07:46.709 just meant as personal documents. You know, capturing 00:07:46.709 --> 00:07:49.189 her early songs. She sold a few burned CD copies 00:07:49.189 --> 00:07:51.730 at shows. So how did they get out there? Purely 00:07:51.730 --> 00:07:54.230 through the Organic Indie Network. A friend, 00:07:54.310 --> 00:07:56.810 Adam Klein, from the band Golden Shoulders, just 00:07:56.810 --> 00:07:59.449 happened to pass a CD to Will Oldham, you know, 00:07:59.509 --> 00:08:01.990 Bonnie Prince Billy, after a local show in Nevada 00:08:01.990 --> 00:08:04.730 City. Wow, that's a huge connection. Will Oldham 00:08:04.730 --> 00:08:07.110 is legendary in that scene. Immense, and Oldham 00:08:07.110 --> 00:08:09.250 immediately asked her to tour with him. That's 00:08:09.250 --> 00:08:11.230 major validation right there. And crucially, 00:08:11.310 --> 00:08:13.569 Oldham didn't just keep it to himself. No, he 00:08:13.569 --> 00:08:15.790 gave the CD to the owner of Drag City, his own 00:08:15.790 --> 00:08:18.379 label. Highly respected independent label out 00:08:18.379 --> 00:08:20.439 of Chicago. Drag City is perfect for her, isn't 00:08:20.439 --> 00:08:22.720 it? Their whole thing is supporting these unique 00:08:22.720 --> 00:08:25.839 kind of anti -commercial artists. Totally. They 00:08:25.839 --> 00:08:28.939 released stuff by Palace Brothers, Smog, Gastrodale 00:08:28.939 --> 00:08:31.920 Soul. I mean, they gave Newsome a home that valued 00:08:31.920 --> 00:08:34.220 her uniqueness, didn't try to smooth it out for 00:08:34.220 --> 00:08:36.059 the mainstream. And that led directly to her 00:08:36.059 --> 00:08:38.379 debut album, The Milk -Eyed Mender, in 2004. 00:08:39.049 --> 00:08:41.370 Which just immediately clicked with the underground 00:08:41.370 --> 00:08:43.370 music world. It really captured something about 00:08:43.370 --> 00:08:45.929 that moment, that sort of burgeoning neofolk 00:08:45.929 --> 00:08:48.990 scene. And its impact was serious and lasting. 00:08:49.490 --> 00:08:52.730 John Morich called it a neofolk benchmark just 00:08:52.730 --> 00:08:55.750 a few years later. NME eventually named it the 00:08:55.750 --> 00:08:58.610 12th best folk album of all time. Yeah, it achieved 00:08:58.610 --> 00:09:01.029 this kind of canonical status within the genre 00:09:01.029 --> 00:09:03.509 almost instantly. And it sold, too. By 2010, 00:09:03.789 --> 00:09:06.950 that debut had sold 200 ,000 copies. Which really 00:09:06.950 --> 00:09:09.009 showed there was an audience hungry for music 00:09:09.009 --> 00:09:10.990 that demanded a bit more from them. Definitely. 00:09:11.070 --> 00:09:13.830 And speaking of Reach, you see that first surprising 00:09:13.830 --> 00:09:16.789 mainstream crossover with a song from that album, 00:09:16.889 --> 00:09:19.230 right? Sprout and the Bean? Oh, yeah. In the 00:09:19.230 --> 00:09:21.889 horror film The Strangers in 2008. That was such 00:09:21.889 --> 00:09:24.759 a jarring placement. It really was. Her delicate, 00:09:24.919 --> 00:09:28.139 really unique sound against this brutal contemporary 00:09:28.139 --> 00:09:31.220 horror backdrop, it kind of proves that even 00:09:31.220 --> 00:09:34.460 her early stuff had this versatile, almost uncanny 00:09:34.460 --> 00:09:36.840 quality that could work outside its expected 00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:40.220 genre. But the real move into, well, epic territory 00:09:40.220 --> 00:09:42.629 came with the second album. Wise pronounced ease, 00:09:42.830 --> 00:09:45.929 right? That's the one. Released in 2006. And 00:09:45.929 --> 00:09:48.830 this definitely achieved wider exposure, got 00:09:48.830 --> 00:09:51.230 a shortlist music prize nomination, charted on 00:09:51.230 --> 00:09:53.629 the Billboard 200. We're not really just talking 00:09:53.629 --> 00:09:55.889 folk music anymore here. No, this feels like 00:09:55.889 --> 00:09:58.509 structured composition. Structurally, Wise is 00:09:58.509 --> 00:10:00.950 just staggering. It's only five tracks long. 00:10:01.149 --> 00:10:03.610 Only five. Yeah, but some of them go for like... 00:10:04.029 --> 00:10:07.210 17 minutes. This is where that Waldorf trainee 00:10:07.210 --> 00:10:09.970 in long form narrative probably comes into full 00:10:09.970 --> 00:10:12.389 bloom, I think. It's an album that requires commitment 00:10:12.389 --> 00:10:14.370 from the listener. You have to sit down, pay 00:10:14.370 --> 00:10:17.110 attention, follow the journey. Absolutely. And 00:10:17.110 --> 00:10:20.169 the defining feature musically is those elaborate, 00:10:20.269 --> 00:10:23.009 almost Baroque orchestrations handled by the 00:10:23.009 --> 00:10:25.789 legendary Van Dyke Parks. How did that collaboration 00:10:25.789 --> 00:10:28.429 come about? It was actually her then -boyfriend, 00:10:28.590 --> 00:10:31.549 the musician Bill Callahan, who recommended Parks' 00:10:31.730 --> 00:10:35.889 iconic 1967 album Song Cycle. Which is itself 00:10:35.889 --> 00:10:39.570 a masterpiece of complex, ornate pop orchestration. 00:10:39.690 --> 00:10:42.690 Exactly. So Newsom heard that and specifically 00:10:42.690 --> 00:10:45.649 sought out Parks to arrange her already dense 00:10:45.649 --> 00:10:49.049 harp compositions. It was a perfect fit, conceptually. 00:10:49.110 --> 00:10:51.149 But the production team on Wise is kind of a 00:10:51.149 --> 00:10:53.210 paradox itself, isn't it? It really is, and it 00:10:53.210 --> 00:10:55.620 says so much. about Newsom's control over her 00:10:55.620 --> 00:10:58.120 sound. On one hand, you've got Van Dyke Parks 00:10:58.120 --> 00:11:00.960 doing these lush, highly composed classical arrangements. 00:11:01.279 --> 00:11:03.600 Maximum complexity. But then the album was engineered 00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:06.120 by Steve Albini. Steve Albini. Known for the 00:11:06.120 --> 00:11:08.919 exact opposite approach, right? That anti -production 00:11:08.919 --> 00:11:12.059 ethos, recording Nirvana, Pixies, super raw and 00:11:12.059 --> 00:11:15.039 direct. Precisely. Minimal interference, vouchering 00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:17.240 the natural sound of the room, rejecting studio 00:11:17.240 --> 00:11:19.879 gloss. So why pair those two? Maximalist arrangements 00:11:19.879 --> 00:11:22.440 recorded with minimalist techniques. I think 00:11:22.440 --> 00:11:24.820 it speaks to her wanting absolute artistic purity. 00:11:25.019 --> 00:11:27.460 She wanted the complex, formal beauty of the 00:11:27.460 --> 00:11:29.679 arrangements, yes. But she needed them to sound 00:11:29.679 --> 00:11:33.200 immediate, raw, true to the instruments, not 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:36.620 slick or overproduced or sentimental. Albini 00:11:36.620 --> 00:11:39.679 provided that clarity, that sharpness. It stopped 00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:42.120 the dense compositions from just turning into 00:11:42.120 --> 00:11:45.019 mush. So the result is massive in scope. But 00:11:45.019 --> 00:11:47.700 still acoustically precise. You hear everything. 00:11:47.899 --> 00:11:50.679 Exactly. And the scope was so grand, she actually 00:11:50.679 --> 00:11:53.940 performed the whole album live in 2008 with full 00:11:53.940 --> 00:11:56.940 classical ensembles. Wow. Like who? The Brooklyn 00:11:56.940 --> 00:11:59.360 Philharmonic in New York, the Sydney Symphony 00:11:59.360 --> 00:12:02.259 Orchestra in Australia. So it wasn't just critics 00:12:02.259 --> 00:12:04.259 calling it classical. She was literally presenting 00:12:04.259 --> 00:12:08.279 it as modern chamber music. Absolutely. Which 00:12:08.279 --> 00:12:10.340 brings us to the next level of scale. Have one 00:12:10.340 --> 00:12:12.440 on me in 2010. This wasn't just long. It was 00:12:12.440 --> 00:12:15.600 a triple album, a triple album in 2010. Recorded 00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:19.379 in Tokyo in 2009. Over two hours of songs. I 00:12:19.379 --> 00:12:21.500 mean, in an era where music consumption was getting 00:12:21.500 --> 00:12:24.019 faster and more fragmented, putting out a two 00:12:24.019 --> 00:12:26.960 hour triple album. That's a profoundly defiant 00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:29.440 statement, isn't it? Just pure artistic self 00:12:29.440 --> 00:12:31.139 -belief and faith that your audience will commit. 00:12:31.259 --> 00:12:33.279 Completely. And the critics seem to recognize 00:12:33.279 --> 00:12:35.679 that ambition. And Powers at the L .A. Times 00:12:35.679 --> 00:12:37.889 had a really insightful take. What was that? 00:12:38.070 --> 00:12:40.830 She praised its variety, but specifically interpreted 00:12:40.830 --> 00:12:43.990 how Newsome used the songwriter's default mode, 00:12:44.090 --> 00:12:47.110 which is love, to explore how traditional love, 00:12:47.149 --> 00:12:49.490 especially for women, can be both the beginning 00:12:49.490 --> 00:12:52.370 and the end of possibility. That's powerful. 00:12:52.529 --> 00:12:55.409 It shifts the focus from just the technical complexity 00:12:55.409 --> 00:12:58.600 to the meaning. The themes. Yes. Her music isn't 00:12:58.600 --> 00:13:00.779 just intricate sounds. It's grappling with these 00:13:00.779 --> 00:13:04.399 huge literary, often feminine themes across this 00:13:04.399 --> 00:13:07.480 vast canvas. It really cemented her role, not 00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:09.539 just as a musician, but as a major narrative 00:13:09.539 --> 00:13:12.080 voice. And surprisingly, perhaps, the commercial 00:13:12.080 --> 00:13:15.259 success kept building. It culminated with Divers 00:13:15.259 --> 00:13:18.419 in 2015. Her biggest commercial success so far, 00:13:18.539 --> 00:13:20.860 actually, peaked at number one on the Billboard 00:13:20.860 --> 00:13:23.620 Alternative Albums chart. Number one. Wow. And 00:13:23.620 --> 00:13:26.139 notably, Divers for Speaks sales actually topped 00:13:26.139 --> 00:13:29.440 the debut week of Wivers, which shows her audience 00:13:29.440 --> 00:13:32.379 didn't just stick around. It grew and solidified. 00:13:32.559 --> 00:13:34.720 Even with the demands of the music, what was 00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:37.299 the concept behind Divers? Well, the title track 00:13:37.299 --> 00:13:39.440 apparently evolved from a song she'd performed 00:13:39.440 --> 00:13:42.960 live, tentatively called The Diver's Wife, described 00:13:42.960 --> 00:13:45.850 as this. detailed love story about pearl hunting. 00:13:45.990 --> 00:13:48.529 Pearl hunting. That's specific. Right. A diving 00:13:48.529 --> 00:13:51.049 bell used to get pearls. A diver separated from 00:13:51.049 --> 00:13:54.850 his wife. It's classic Newsome. Using these incredibly 00:13:54.850 --> 00:13:58.129 particular, almost historical narratives to explore 00:13:58.129 --> 00:14:02.889 universal stuff. Time, separation, love, memory. 00:14:03.129 --> 00:14:05.009 So if we dig a bit deeper into the technical 00:14:05.009 --> 00:14:08.330 side, the musical style itself. Yeah. Those official 00:14:08.330 --> 00:14:10.970 labels highlight the blend, right? Progressive 00:14:10.970 --> 00:14:13.429 folk, chamber folk, indie folk. Baroque pop. 00:14:13.590 --> 00:14:15.289 Yeah, it's never just one thing. And she was 00:14:15.289 --> 00:14:17.549 heavily linked, especially by journalists back 00:14:17.549 --> 00:14:20.070 in the early 2000s with that whole freak folk 00:14:20.070 --> 00:14:23.049 movement. Ah, yes. Freak folk characterized by 00:14:23.049 --> 00:14:26.690 eccentricity, experimental sounds, moving away 00:14:26.690 --> 00:14:28.929 from traditional folk. But she pushed back against 00:14:28.929 --> 00:14:30.950 that label pretty strongly, didn't she? She did. 00:14:31.190 --> 00:14:33.649 And that says a lot about her need for independence, 00:14:33.889 --> 00:14:35.870 I think. Even though she was often called one 00:14:35.870 --> 00:14:37.990 of its most prominent members, she stated very 00:14:37.990 --> 00:14:40.289 plainly she claims no ties to any particular 00:14:40.289 --> 00:14:43.080 music scene. Which makes sense. For someone who 00:14:43.080 --> 00:14:45.519 put so much work into classical rigor and formal 00:14:45.519 --> 00:14:48.620 composition, being lumped under a loose, sometimes 00:14:48.620 --> 00:14:51.299 kind of dismissive label like freak folk. It 00:14:51.299 --> 00:14:54.000 probably felt reductive. Yeah. Especially given 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:56.700 the complexity she was aiming for. Speaking of 00:14:56.700 --> 00:14:59.100 which, her early work was really defined by some 00:14:59.100 --> 00:15:02.480 sophisticated theory, particularly polyrhythms. 00:15:02.620 --> 00:15:05.419 Right. Explain polyrhythms again quickly. Basically, 00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:08.419 it's when you play two or more independent, conflicting 00:15:08.419 --> 00:15:11.179 rhythms at the same time. It creates this really 00:15:11.179 --> 00:15:14.139 complex, sometimes dizzying texture. It's a sign 00:15:14.139 --> 00:15:16.740 of high -level compositional skill. But she moved 00:15:16.740 --> 00:15:19.919 away from that. She did, quite publicly. After 00:15:19.919 --> 00:15:22.500 Riai, she said, polyrhythms stopped being fascinating 00:15:22.500 --> 00:15:25.159 to me and started feeling wanky. Wanky, that's 00:15:25.159 --> 00:15:27.940 such a great revealing word choice, like complexity 00:15:27.940 --> 00:15:31.039 just for the sake of showing off. Exactly. It 00:15:31.039 --> 00:15:33.110 suggests she felt the technique. was becoming 00:15:33.110 --> 00:15:35.870 gratuitous, overshadowing the actual substance, 00:15:36.070 --> 00:15:38.990 the story, the melody, the emotion. It was a 00:15:38.990 --> 00:15:41.450 conscious shift away from purely mechanical difficulty 00:15:41.450 --> 00:15:44.049 towards semantic depth. Which explains why she'd 00:15:44.049 --> 00:15:46.710 cite influences as diverse as the avant -garde 00:15:46.710 --> 00:15:50.009 Prague rock band Henry Cow. Who were known for 00:15:50.009 --> 00:15:53.409 free improvisation and super intellectual challenging 00:15:53.409 --> 00:15:55.710 structures. While also incorporating elements 00:15:55.710 --> 00:15:58.230 of really simple traditional Appalachian music 00:15:58.230 --> 00:16:01.389 and its shape note notation. That range is just 00:16:01.389 --> 00:16:04.549 radical, isn't it? Avant -garde, prog rock, and 00:16:04.549 --> 00:16:06.889 basic folk notation. Her sources aren't just 00:16:06.889 --> 00:16:09.710 wide, they actively conflict sometimes, forcing 00:16:09.710 --> 00:16:13.049 her into this unique synthesis. Okay, let's move 00:16:13.049 --> 00:16:16.909 to probably the most discussed, maybe most polarizing 00:16:16.909 --> 00:16:21.029 element of her art. The voice itself. Ah, yes. 00:16:21.389 --> 00:16:23.870 The soprano voice. Her delivery, especially early 00:16:23.870 --> 00:16:26.149 on, definitely drew a lot of commentary. Critics 00:16:26.149 --> 00:16:28.470 often called it childlike. Which is a loaded 00:16:28.470 --> 00:16:30.470 term, isn't it? It implies a lack of maturity, 00:16:30.710 --> 00:16:33.990 maybe even technique. And Newsom, understandably, 00:16:34.070 --> 00:16:35.889 expressed real disappointment with that label. 00:16:36.070 --> 00:16:38.350 She preferred to call her style untrainable. 00:16:38.970 --> 00:16:40.889 Untrainable. What's the distinction there? Well, 00:16:40.970 --> 00:16:43.570 untrainable suggests something innate, idiosyncratic, 00:16:43.649 --> 00:16:45.970 an instrument that just resists conforming to 00:16:45.970 --> 00:16:48.049 standard vocal coaching rather than simply being 00:16:48.049 --> 00:16:50.350 unsophisticated. It highlights that her voice 00:16:50.350 --> 00:16:52.870 is fundamentally unique, not easily replicated 00:16:52.870 --> 00:16:55.789 or slotted into neat categories. What's fascinating, 00:16:55.929 --> 00:16:58.490 though, is that her voice did change. It physically 00:16:58.490 --> 00:17:01.490 transformed, forcing an evolution in her sound 00:17:01.490 --> 00:17:04.509 that critics noticed almost immediately on Have 00:17:04.509 --> 00:17:07.150 One On Me. That's right. And this wasn't a stylistic 00:17:07.150 --> 00:17:09.859 choice. It was medical. In 2009, she developed 00:17:09.859 --> 00:17:12.700 vocal cord nodules. A common issue for professional 00:17:12.700 --> 00:17:14.880 singers, unfortunately. Yeah, but hers were severe 00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:16.960 enough that she couldn't speak or sing at all 00:17:16.960 --> 00:17:19.640 for two months, just silence. Wow. And the recovery 00:17:19.640 --> 00:17:22.480 process, plus some subsequent vocal modifications 00:17:22.480 --> 00:17:26.299 she undertook, it fundamentally changed her physical 00:17:26.299 --> 00:17:29.559 instrument. So that richer, maybe deeper tone 00:17:29.559 --> 00:17:32.460 people heard on her later work wasn't her deciding 00:17:32.460 --> 00:17:34.859 to sound different, but a direct result of healing 00:17:34.859 --> 00:17:37.319 and physical changes. Essentially, yes. Yeah. 00:17:37.690 --> 00:17:39.470 How was that change received then? Did people 00:17:39.470 --> 00:17:41.970 see it as her maturing or did they miss the old 00:17:41.970 --> 00:17:44.970 sound? Generally, I think it was seen as a maturation. 00:17:45.089 --> 00:17:48.349 While that really high -pitched, maybe polarizing 00:17:48.349 --> 00:17:51.690 quality softened, her ability for complex phrasing, 00:17:51.690 --> 00:17:54.289 for sustained narrative, that all remained. So 00:17:54.289 --> 00:17:56.730 the core newsomeness was still there. Exactly. 00:17:56.849 --> 00:17:59.210 It resulted in a voice that was maybe lower, 00:17:59.309 --> 00:18:01.970 richer, perhaps more traditionally palatable 00:18:01.970 --> 00:18:04.450 for some folks, but it still had that essential 00:18:04.450 --> 00:18:07.460 eccentricity and narrative power. It's a really 00:18:07.460 --> 00:18:09.859 interesting case study in how an artist's sound 00:18:09.859 --> 00:18:12.640 can be totally redefined by something involuntary, 00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:14.880 pushing them into new territory. And looking 00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:17.420 ahead, despite the long gaps between albums, 00:18:17.700 --> 00:18:20.059 it sounds like she is actively working on new 00:18:20.059 --> 00:18:22.759 stuff. Definitely. After nearly a decade since 00:18:22.759 --> 00:18:25.170 Divers, we've got... solid proof of new songs 00:18:25.170 --> 00:18:28.049 being played live. In 2023, she did a surprise 00:18:28.049 --> 00:18:31.170 opening set for Fleet Foxes. Oh, right. And debuted 00:18:31.170 --> 00:18:34.450 five new songs with tentative titles like Bombs 00:18:34.450 --> 00:18:36.710 Are Whistling, Marie at the Mill, Little Hand 00:18:36.710 --> 00:18:39.589 the Air Again, and No Wonder. Five new songs. 00:18:39.710 --> 00:18:42.309 That's significant. And then in 2024, during 00:18:42.309 --> 00:18:45.390 a concert residency, she debuted two more originals, 00:18:45.450 --> 00:18:49.809 Home Economics and Rovensheer. Okay, so that's 00:18:49.809 --> 00:18:52.369 seven new songs debuted in about a year. That 00:18:52.369 --> 00:18:55.210 strongly suggests a fifth studio album must be, 00:18:55.210 --> 00:18:57.789 well, pretty far along in development, continuing 00:18:57.789 --> 00:19:00.529 that legacy of complex storytelling. Which leads 00:19:00.529 --> 00:19:03.230 us perfectly into the final and maybe most contradictory 00:19:03.230 --> 00:19:06.210 piece of her career puzzle. How this artist of 00:19:06.210 --> 00:19:09.069 such intense internal rigor has so successfully 00:19:09.069 --> 00:19:12.190 embraced collaborations and roles way outside 00:19:12.190 --> 00:19:15.069 her initial niche. It confunds that paradox we 00:19:15.069 --> 00:19:17.369 started with. Yeah, her collaboration list is 00:19:17.369 --> 00:19:19.710 surprisingly wide ranging. It really shows her 00:19:19.710 --> 00:19:21.410 willingness to just cross artistic boundaries 00:19:21.410 --> 00:19:24.150 without blinking. Early on, sure, she worked 00:19:24.150 --> 00:19:26.549 with experimental acts like Nervous Cop, Vetiver. 00:19:26.750 --> 00:19:28.750 Right, kind of expected. And she contributed 00:19:28.750 --> 00:19:30.890 to the work of the legendary folk revivalist 00:19:30.890 --> 00:19:34.069 Vashti Bunyan. But then things take a sharp turn 00:19:34.069 --> 00:19:36.230 into mainstream comedy and even hip hop. The 00:19:36.230 --> 00:19:38.789 comedy links are amazing. She provided vocals 00:19:38.789 --> 00:19:41.430 for the Lonely Island song Rastret. Which is 00:19:41.430 --> 00:19:43.890 hilarious. And appeared in the MGMT music video 00:19:43.890 --> 00:19:47.509 for kids playing the mom. Yeah. Here's this artist 00:19:47.509 --> 00:19:50.220 citing Nabokov. studying polyrhythms, and she's 00:19:50.220 --> 00:19:52.859 happily playing the mom in a big indie pop video 00:19:52.859 --> 00:19:55.740 and singing on comedy rap tracks. It shows a 00:19:55.740 --> 00:19:57.720 great self -awareness, doesn't it? A playful 00:19:57.720 --> 00:20:00.839 attitude about her own high art image. Like, 00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:02.799 she doesn't take that pedestal too seriously. 00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:05.279 Totally. And the range just keeps going. She 00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:07.500 worked with Thou and the Get Down, Stay Down. 00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:09.980 And maybe most surprisingly, she was a guest 00:20:09.980 --> 00:20:12.779 composer on the Roots -acclaimed 2010 album How 00:20:12.779 --> 00:20:15.079 I Got Over. The Roots? I mean, they're known 00:20:15.079 --> 00:20:17.480 for their musical sophistication, bridging hip 00:20:17.480 --> 00:20:19.730 -hop and jazz. with real compositional depth 00:20:19.730 --> 00:20:22.589 her contributing there really places her as a 00:20:22.589 --> 00:20:25.119 serious sought -after composer regardless of 00:20:25.119 --> 00:20:27.640 genre lines. That flexibility is just astounding. 00:20:27.740 --> 00:20:29.960 But maybe the biggest pivot was her move into 00:20:29.960 --> 00:20:32.380 acting and not just cameos. She took a really 00:20:32.380 --> 00:20:35.640 substantial, vital role in Paul Thomas Anderson's 00:20:35.640 --> 00:20:39.279 2014 film Inherent Vice. Adapting Thomas Pynchon, 00:20:39.299 --> 00:20:41.380 no less. She played Sordalus, right? And narrated 00:20:41.380 --> 00:20:43.099 the whole film. Yeah, she basically functions 00:20:43.099 --> 00:20:46.140 as this ethereal guide through Pynchon's notoriously 00:20:46.140 --> 00:20:48.720 dense rambling story. Choosing her voice for 00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:51.769 that role was just a brilliant move by PTA. absolutely 00:20:51.769 --> 00:20:54.730 her unique vocal sound combined with that innate 00:20:54.730 --> 00:20:57.769 ability she has to deliver complex wordy material 00:20:57.769 --> 00:21:00.990 with clarity and feeling she was the perfect 00:21:00.990 --> 00:21:03.430 sonic anchor for that kind of challenging film 00:21:03.430 --> 00:21:06.089 peter travers at rolling stone called her narration 00:21:06.860 --> 00:21:09.180 gorgeously rendered. It really confirmed that 00:21:09.180 --> 00:21:11.619 her instrument, her voice, is incredibly compelling 00:21:11.619 --> 00:21:14.119 for storytelling, whether it's sung or spoken. 00:21:14.259 --> 00:21:16.400 Definitely. And her other acting roles lean right 00:21:16.400 --> 00:21:18.380 into that comedy world connection we talked about. 00:21:18.539 --> 00:21:21.400 She showed up as a harpist in Portlandia. Of 00:21:21.400 --> 00:21:24.059 course. A steampunk doctor in the Lonely Islands 00:21:24.059 --> 00:21:28.220 movie Popstar. Never stop, never stopping. Perfect. 00:21:28.339 --> 00:21:30.460 And even had a role as Caroline Saint -Jacques 00:21:30.460 --> 00:21:32.559 Renard in the final episode of Brooklyn Nine 00:21:32.559 --> 00:21:35.359 -Nine. She's fully embedded in that whole comedy 00:21:35.359 --> 00:21:38.039 ecosystem now. Which brings us, naturally, to 00:21:38.039 --> 00:21:39.759 the personal context that kind of frames this 00:21:39.759 --> 00:21:42.599 whole paradox. She dated musician Bill Callahan 00:21:42.599 --> 00:21:44.799 for a few years, right? He sang on Wise. Yeah, 00:21:44.839 --> 00:21:48.400 from about 2004 to 2007. He provided guest vocals 00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:51.319 on that massive track, Only Skin. But then she 00:21:51.319 --> 00:21:53.779 met Andy Samberg in 2006, actually at one of 00:21:53.779 --> 00:21:55.809 her concerts. Well, he was a fan. Apparently 00:21:55.809 --> 00:21:59.049 so. And their relationship grew, leading to their 00:21:59.049 --> 00:22:01.750 marriage in Big Sur back in 2013. And that pairing 00:22:01.750 --> 00:22:03.470 is just the perfect symbol of the whole thing, 00:22:03.470 --> 00:22:06.230 isn't it? The ultimate meeting of high art complexity 00:22:06.230 --> 00:22:09.990 and literary depth with massive mainstream broadcast 00:22:09.990 --> 00:22:13.670 comedy success. The intellectual musician marrying 00:22:13.670 --> 00:22:16.410 the star of SNL in Brooklyn Nine -Nine. It's 00:22:16.410 --> 00:22:19.130 such a fascinating merger of sensibilities. And 00:22:19.130 --> 00:22:21.329 even their real estate choices seem to reflect 00:22:21.329 --> 00:22:23.950 this blend, the intellectual bohemian meeting 00:22:23.950 --> 00:22:27.630 Hollywood success. They bought the historic Moorcrest 00:22:27.630 --> 00:22:30.529 estate in L .A.'s Beachwood Canyon. Which has 00:22:30.529 --> 00:22:32.769 serious old Hollywood history, right? Yeah, owned 00:22:32.769 --> 00:22:35.630 by silent film star Mary Astor's parents, rented 00:22:35.630 --> 00:22:37.950 by Charlie Chaplin. It's like the serious artist, 00:22:38.109 --> 00:22:40.869 composer of two -hour poetic albums, inheriting 00:22:40.869 --> 00:22:43.130 this piece of classic Hollywood glamour through 00:22:43.130 --> 00:22:45.309 her connection to a mainstream cultural figure. 00:22:45.549 --> 00:22:46.990 They also have a place in New York, right? Yeah. 00:22:47.009 --> 00:22:49.440 West Village. all this creative work and this 00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:51.339 high profile life, they seem to have maintained 00:22:51.339 --> 00:22:53.619 a pretty stable family life. They had their first 00:22:53.619 --> 00:22:56.799 child, a daughter, in 2017. And a second child 00:22:56.799 --> 00:22:59.799 was reported in 2023. So this deep commitment 00:22:59.799 --> 00:23:02.420 to home life exists right alongside maintaining 00:23:02.420 --> 00:23:04.779 one of the most intellectually demanding and 00:23:04.779 --> 00:23:08.240 unique careers in contemporary music. So if we 00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:10.380 tie this all back together, thinking about her 00:23:10.380 --> 00:23:14.160 overall impact, the critical recognition is undeniable 00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:17.019 and lasting, isn't it? Absolutely. Looking back, 00:23:17.160 --> 00:23:20.000 NPR included two of her songs, Sapokanakin from 00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:23.319 Divers and the much earlier Peach Plum Pear from 00:23:23.319 --> 00:23:26.380 her first EP in their big list of the 200 greatest 00:23:26.380 --> 00:23:30.119 songs by 21st century women, number 129 and number 00:23:30.119 --> 00:23:32.680 80. That's serious validation across her career. 00:23:33.069 --> 00:23:35.410 It confirms her output isn't just seen as eccentric 00:23:35.410 --> 00:23:38.509 or niche anymore. It's canonical. Her whole path 00:23:38.509 --> 00:23:40.589 is defined by these incredible contradictions, 00:23:40.630 --> 00:23:42.890 isn't it? Totally. Coming from classical rigor 00:23:42.890 --> 00:23:45.450 and literary depth, enduring a physical vocal 00:23:45.450 --> 00:23:48.250 injury that forced an evolution, actively rejecting 00:23:48.250 --> 00:23:51.529 easy labels like Freak Folk. Yet achieving mainstream 00:23:51.529 --> 00:23:53.809 recognition through these critically adored complex 00:23:53.809 --> 00:23:56.990 albums and through these really visible, often 00:23:56.990 --> 00:23:59.789 funny roles in Hollywood. She manages to be intensely 00:23:59.789 --> 00:24:02.480 specific and deeply integrated all at once. brings 00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:04.440 us to the final thought for you, the listener, 00:24:04.539 --> 00:24:06.680 to really consider as you maybe go back and listen 00:24:06.680 --> 00:24:09.339 to her work. Think about how Joanna Newsom pulls 00:24:09.339 --> 00:24:12.180 this off. How does she maintain this intensely 00:24:12.180 --> 00:24:15.480 complex, literary, unique musical voice, remember, 00:24:15.559 --> 00:24:19.359 she called polyrhythms wanky, and cited experimentalists 00:24:19.359 --> 00:24:22.079 like Henry Cow. While simultaneously contributing 00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:25.799 key elements to mainstream comedy and film, what 00:24:25.799 --> 00:24:28.299 does that incredibly diverse yet deeply focused 00:24:28.299 --> 00:24:31.160 career tell us about what it means to be an enduring, 00:24:31.279 --> 00:24:34.759 serious artist in the 21st century? Maybe it 00:24:34.759 --> 00:24:37.220 shows that high art ambition and surprising mainstream 00:24:37.220 --> 00:24:40.140 visibility aren't necessarily opposites? Perhaps 00:24:40.140 --> 00:24:42.140 by strategically engaging with the mainstream, 00:24:42.299 --> 00:24:44.930 but always on her own terms, she actually uses 00:24:44.930 --> 00:24:47.349 that visibility to reinforce and sustain her 00:24:47.349 --> 00:24:50.309 intensely unique, uncompromising artistic vision. 00:24:50.470 --> 00:24:52.549 It's quite remarkable when you lay it all out.