WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.620 Welcome to the Deep Dive. Today we're looking 00:00:02.620 --> 00:00:05.480 at a real musical enigma, someone whose fingerprints 00:00:05.480 --> 00:00:08.380 are all over modern music, but who often seems, 00:00:08.439 --> 00:00:11.199 well, almost invisible himself. Yeah, a legend 00:00:11.199 --> 00:00:13.220 hiding in plain sight, you could say. We're talking 00:00:13.220 --> 00:00:16.280 about Nicholas Drainlow. Exactly. Born in 1949, 00:00:16.579 --> 00:00:20.280 a key figure in British music for, gosh, over 00:00:20.280 --> 00:00:22.940 five decades now. His story is fascinating because 00:00:22.940 --> 00:00:25.910 his songs... often way more famous than he is. 00:00:26.010 --> 00:00:29.129 It's that paradox, isn't it? The ultimate songwriter 00:00:29.129 --> 00:00:31.449 and producer whose biggest fear, he actually 00:00:31.449 --> 00:00:33.729 said this, was sticking with what you did when 00:00:33.729 --> 00:00:35.990 you were famous. That's our mission today then, 00:00:36.090 --> 00:00:38.509 to unpack the career of this guy who deliberately 00:00:38.509 --> 00:00:41.170 swerved away from easy fame. We're going to cover 00:00:41.170 --> 00:00:43.880 his journey through pub rock. New Wave, Power 00:00:43.880 --> 00:00:46.060 Pop. And he wasn't just a writer or producer. 00:00:46.299 --> 00:00:49.340 He's a genuine multi -instrumentalist. Vocals, 00:00:49.340 --> 00:00:52.619 bass, guitar, keyboards, the whole package. But 00:00:52.619 --> 00:00:54.840 it's that fear of becoming a nostalgia act, that 00:00:54.840 --> 00:00:57.280 drive to keep changing, that's really the key 00:00:57.280 --> 00:00:59.799 to understanding him, I think. Absolutely. He 00:00:59.799 --> 00:01:02.939 starts as this architect of New Wave, gets this 00:01:02.939 --> 00:01:05.599 nickname Basher, and then completely reinvents 00:01:05.599 --> 00:01:08.140 himself later on. So let's start there, with 00:01:08.140 --> 00:01:10.920 the Basher era. How did he even get into the 00:01:10.920 --> 00:01:13.450 music scene? Well, his journey really kicks off 00:01:13.450 --> 00:01:16.769 back in 1967. He was in a band called Kippington 00:01:16.769 --> 00:01:19.409 Lodge with his school friend Brinsley Schwartz. 00:01:19.450 --> 00:01:21.709 They even put out a few singles on Parlophone. 00:01:21.890 --> 00:01:23.829 Pretty standard start, really. Parlophone. Wow. 00:01:24.030 --> 00:01:27.109 So early days. But then Kippington Lodge morphs 00:01:27.109 --> 00:01:30.030 into Brinsley Schwartz the band in late 69. Right. 00:01:30.109 --> 00:01:33.239 And this is where things get, well... Interesting. 00:01:33.379 --> 00:01:36.280 Kind of disastrous initially. They shifted towards 00:01:36.280 --> 00:01:38.719 country and blues rock. And their management 00:01:38.719 --> 00:01:41.799 had this grand plan, didn't they? The infamous... 00:01:42.090 --> 00:01:44.609 plane stunt oh yeah fame pushers ltd they had 00:01:44.609 --> 00:01:48.390 this frankly bonkers idea fly a whole plane load 00:01:48.390 --> 00:01:50.730 of british music journalists the really cynical 00:01:50.730 --> 00:01:53.390 london crowd all the way to new york to see their 00:01:53.390 --> 00:01:55.650 debut at the film war east that sounds incredibly 00:01:55.650 --> 00:01:58.510 high risk the pressure exactly the logistics 00:01:58.510 --> 00:02:01.769 the cost it was meant to be this huge manufactured 00:02:01.769 --> 00:02:04.750 event make them instant stars but it didn't quite 00:02:04.750 --> 00:02:06.959 work out that way Not even close. The sources 00:02:06.959 --> 00:02:09.219 say the stunt just completely backfired, the 00:02:09.219 --> 00:02:11.580 band wasn't ready, the hype felt forced, and 00:02:11.580 --> 00:02:13.479 the journalists basically savaged them. They 00:02:13.479 --> 00:02:15.979 became a laughingstock, is the phrase used. Ouch. 00:02:16.159 --> 00:02:19.409 Yeah. So instant notoriety. But for all the wrong 00:02:19.409 --> 00:02:21.689 reasons, how did they recover from that? They 00:02:21.689 --> 00:02:23.770 had to ditch the hype and earn it the hard way. 00:02:23.810 --> 00:02:26.030 They hit the London pub rock circuit. This was, 00:02:26.030 --> 00:02:28.069 you know, the early 70s, a real reaction against 00:02:28.069 --> 00:02:31.250 bloated prog rock. Right. Back to basics. Strip 00:02:31.250 --> 00:02:34.110 down rock and roll and sweaty pubs. Precisely. 00:02:34.310 --> 00:02:37.030 Playing constant gigs, building a real following 00:02:37.030 --> 00:02:39.789 based on performance, not hype. That whole pub 00:02:39.789 --> 00:02:43.030 rock scene was crucial. It valued energy, authenticity, 00:02:43.370 --> 00:02:45.969 stuff that definitely influenced Lowe's later. 00:02:46.069 --> 00:02:48.639 You can see the seeds of punk. new wave and that 00:02:48.639 --> 00:02:51.620 whole ethos that makes sense that raw no frills 00:02:51.620 --> 00:02:54.580 approach must have stuck with him so brinsley 00:02:54.580 --> 00:02:56.599 schwartz runs its course dissolves around 75 00:02:56.599 --> 00:03:00.240 and then comes stiff records yes this is the 00:03:00.240 --> 00:03:04.500 pivotal moment 1976 lowe's moves from being in 00:03:04.500 --> 00:03:07.240 the band to being the guy shaping the sound and 00:03:07.240 --> 00:03:10.039 the very first single ever released on stiff 00:03:10.039 --> 00:03:13.800 records it was his wasn't it yep August 1976. 00:03:14.340 --> 00:03:16.400 So it goes on the A side, heart of the city, 00:03:16.479 --> 00:03:19.120 on the B side, history right there. And the label 00:03:19.120 --> 00:03:21.800 itself started on a shoestring. The funding story 00:03:21.800 --> 00:03:25.120 is amazing. It really is. Just 400 pounds. That's 00:03:25.120 --> 00:03:27.759 all they had to start Stiff Records. A loan from 00:03:27.759 --> 00:03:30.300 Leigh Brulot, the singer from Dr. Feelgood. 400 00:03:30.300 --> 00:03:33.060 quid to launch a label that basically defined 00:03:33.060 --> 00:03:37.099 UK Indian New Wave. Incredible. It speaks volumes 00:03:37.099 --> 00:03:39.740 about the DIY spirit, doesn't it? And Lowe wasn't 00:03:39.740 --> 00:03:41.620 just the first artist, he became the in -house 00:03:41.620 --> 00:03:44.120 producer. This is where he earns the nickname 00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:46.620 Basher. Okay, Basher. Let's unpack that. Why 00:03:46.620 --> 00:03:49.139 Basher? It came from his production style. It 00:03:49.139 --> 00:03:51.939 was fast, efficient, no nonsense, rough and ready. 00:03:52.180 --> 00:03:54.680 The story goes, his instructions to bands were 00:03:54.680 --> 00:03:57.060 basically, bash it out now, we'll tart it up 00:03:57.060 --> 00:03:59.439 later. Huh. Get the energy down first, worry 00:03:59.439 --> 00:04:01.979 about the polish after. Exactly. It was perfect 00:04:01.979 --> 00:04:03.960 for the punk bands who had loads of energy, but 00:04:03.960 --> 00:04:06.860 maybe not much studio time or budget. Capture 00:04:06.860 --> 00:04:09.300 that raw, spontaneous feel. Don't overthink it. 00:04:09.379 --> 00:04:11.599 And he used that Basher style on some absolutely 00:04:11.599 --> 00:04:14.460 landmark records, defining records. Totally. 00:04:14.520 --> 00:04:17.939 He produced the Dam's first single, New Rose. 00:04:18.240 --> 00:04:22.959 Think about that. October 1976. Widely considered 00:04:22.959 --> 00:04:26.089 the very first proper... English punk single. 00:04:26.329 --> 00:04:28.529 Before the Sex Pistols, Big Splat. Months before 00:04:28.529 --> 00:04:31.670 Anarchy in the UK. So Lowe is right there at 00:04:31.670 --> 00:04:34.050 ground zero. He also produced their whole first 00:04:34.050 --> 00:04:37.250 album, Damn Damned Classic Punk Sound. But he 00:04:37.250 --> 00:04:39.470 wasn't just punk, was he? His biggest production 00:04:39.470 --> 00:04:41.529 relationship was probably with Elvis Costello. 00:04:41.730 --> 00:04:44.470 Oh, absolutely fundamental. Lowe produced Costello's 00:04:44.470 --> 00:04:49.329 first five albums. Five. From 1977 to 1981. We're 00:04:49.329 --> 00:04:51.850 talking My Aim is True, This Year's Model, Armed 00:04:51.850 --> 00:04:55.009 Forces, Game Changing Records. What was it about 00:04:55.009 --> 00:04:57.250 the low sound that worked so well for Costello? 00:04:57.290 --> 00:04:59.449 What did he bring? It was that basher clarity, 00:04:59.569 --> 00:05:02.029 but refined for Costello's more intricate songwriting. 00:05:02.069 --> 00:05:04.350 You get these really dry, punchy drums, driving 00:05:04.350 --> 00:05:06.389 bass lines, often low, playing bass himself. 00:05:06.550 --> 00:05:08.470 And everything's mixed, so Costello's vocals 00:05:08.470 --> 00:05:10.410 and those incredibly sharp lyrics just slice 00:05:10.410 --> 00:05:13.779 right through. Tight, focused. No fat. Exactly. 00:05:14.060 --> 00:05:17.040 It proved rock could be smart, angry, and concise. 00:05:17.480 --> 00:05:20.420 Power pop perfection, really. He just had this 00:05:20.420 --> 00:05:23.279 knack for bringing out the best in these literate, 00:05:23.279 --> 00:05:26.040 slightly udgy songwriters. And he was busy beyond 00:05:26.040 --> 00:05:28.199 Costello, too, right? Still working with other 00:05:28.199 --> 00:05:31.420 stiff acts? Oh, yeah. He produced stuff for Reckless 00:05:31.420 --> 00:05:34.839 Eric. you know whole wide world and bands like 00:05:34.839 --> 00:05:36.959 alberto he lost trios paranoias who were more 00:05:36.959 --> 00:05:39.600 on the satirical side of punk plus guys like 00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:42.339 mickey jupp more roots rocker and outside stiff 00:05:42.339 --> 00:05:45.399 he branched out crucially he produced the pretenders 00:05:45.399 --> 00:05:49.290 debut single in 1978. stop your sobbing Huge 00:05:49.290 --> 00:05:52.230 song. Introduced Chrissy Hine to the world. Yeah, 00:05:52.290 --> 00:05:54.810 with that distinctive low punch. And he worked 00:05:54.810 --> 00:05:56.689 with Graham Parker, too. Produced his first and 00:05:56.689 --> 00:05:59.029 third albums. Parker was part of that same wave 00:05:59.029 --> 00:06:01.850 of smart, articulate songwriters. And Dr. Feelgood. 00:06:01.889 --> 00:06:03.670 He produced them, too, didn't he? Kind of paying 00:06:03.670 --> 00:06:05.810 back that initial loan. Metaphorically, yeah. 00:06:06.230 --> 00:06:08.629 He produced the album Sneak and Suspicion for 00:06:08.629 --> 00:06:10.870 them, and later Be Seeing You, which had their 00:06:10.870 --> 00:06:13.670 biggest hit single, Milk and Alcohol. And guess 00:06:13.670 --> 00:06:15.759 who co -wrote that song? Had to be low. Yeah. 00:06:15.860 --> 00:06:18.300 Nick Lowe, he was just everywhere, shaping the 00:06:18.300 --> 00:06:20.699 sound, writing the hits. It's kind of staggering 00:06:20.699 --> 00:06:23.420 when you list it all out. It really is. Which 00:06:23.420 --> 00:06:25.800 brings us perfectly into this core paradox we 00:06:25.800 --> 00:06:27.839 mentioned. He's the guy behind the scenes, the 00:06:27.839 --> 00:06:31.040 basher, the producer. But often, his biggest 00:06:31.040 --> 00:06:34.319 impact, certainly financially, came when other 00:06:34.319 --> 00:06:37.180 people sang his songs. Yeah, his own chart success 00:06:37.180 --> 00:06:40.889 as a solo artist was... Well, it was there, but 00:06:40.889 --> 00:06:42.910 relatively modest compared to his influence. 00:06:43.089 --> 00:06:46.149 He did have a couple of notable UK hits. I Love 00:06:46.149 --> 00:06:48.389 the Sound of Breaking Glass was one, right? Top 00:06:48.389 --> 00:06:50.870 Ten? That's the one. Reached number seven in 00:06:50.870 --> 00:06:54.209 the UK in 1978. It was actually a bit different 00:06:54.209 --> 00:06:56.910 for him musically. A bit more art rock, less 00:06:56.910 --> 00:06:59.329 raw power pop. But the big one, the one everyone 00:06:59.329 --> 00:07:01.430 kind of knows, even if they don't place the name. 00:07:01.629 --> 00:07:04.410 Has to be Cruel to be Kind. That's his signature 00:07:04.410 --> 00:07:07.089 tune as a performer, surely. For sure. Co -written 00:07:07.089 --> 00:07:09.949 way back with Ian Gomm from Brinsley Schwartz. 00:07:10.089 --> 00:07:11.970 The hit version, the one everyone knows from 00:07:11.970 --> 00:07:14.709 1979, was actually a re -recording by his band 00:07:14.709 --> 00:07:17.670 Rockpile. Ah, okay, so not even his solo recording 00:07:17.670 --> 00:07:19.730 technically. Well, it was on his album Labor 00:07:19.730 --> 00:07:22.689 of Lust, but Rockpile played on it. The song 00:07:22.689 --> 00:07:25.310 was massive worldwide, though. Number 12 in the 00:07:25.310 --> 00:07:28.670 UK, the US Billboard chart, Canada, Australia, 00:07:29.189 --> 00:07:32.339 everywhere. And that album, Labor of Lust. Did 00:07:32.339 --> 00:07:35.500 well, too. Yeah, went gold in Canada. So he definitely 00:07:35.500 --> 00:07:37.339 had his moments in the spotlight as an artist. 00:07:37.420 --> 00:07:40.540 But the real story, the reason his songs are 00:07:40.540 --> 00:07:43.480 just part of the cultural furniture is the cover 00:07:43.480 --> 00:07:46.420 versions. This is the real deep dive nugget for 00:07:46.420 --> 00:07:48.660 you. OK, let's get into it. The big one has to 00:07:48.660 --> 00:07:52.209 be. What's so funny about peace, love, and understanding, 00:07:52.430 --> 00:07:54.949 right? Absolutely. The prime example. He wrote 00:07:54.949 --> 00:07:57.189 and recorded it with Brinsley Schwartz way back 00:07:57.189 --> 00:08:00.230 in 74. Kind of a heartfelt, slightly pleading 00:08:00.230 --> 00:08:02.430 song. Then Elvis Costello picks it up. Costello 00:08:02.430 --> 00:08:05.009 and the Attractions covered it in 1979, often 00:08:05.009 --> 00:08:07.509 as a B -sider bonus track initially, but it became 00:08:07.509 --> 00:08:10.029 one of their anthems. Really powerful version, 00:08:10.170 --> 00:08:13.009 much more urgent. That gave it a big boost in 00:08:13.009 --> 00:08:14.649 the new wave era. But that's not even the biggest 00:08:14.649 --> 00:08:16.810 version, is it? Not by a long shot. Get this. 00:08:17.230 --> 00:08:20.110 In 1992, the singer Curtis Stigers covered it 00:08:20.110 --> 00:08:21.850 for the soundtrack of the movie The Bodyguard. 00:08:21.949 --> 00:08:24.329 The Bodyguard. The Whitney Houston movie. That's 00:08:24.329 --> 00:08:28.350 the one. And that soundtrack. Well, it's one 00:08:28.350 --> 00:08:30.490 of the biggest selling albums of all time. Sold 00:08:30.490 --> 00:08:33.909 something like 44 million copies globally. 44 00:08:33.909 --> 00:08:37.730 million. Wow. So think about that journey. A 00:08:37.730 --> 00:08:40.649 song written by a pub rocker in the early 70s, 00:08:40.649 --> 00:08:44.129 popularized by a new wave icon in the late 70s, 00:08:44.149 --> 00:08:47.129 ends up being heard by tens of millions of people 00:08:47.129 --> 00:08:49.549 worldwide in the 90s because it was on a Whitney 00:08:49.549 --> 00:08:52.690 Houston movie soundtrack. That's insane. Most 00:08:52.690 --> 00:08:54.730 people hearing that song would have zero idea 00:08:54.730 --> 00:08:57.350 it was a Nick Lowe composition originally. Exactly. 00:08:57.529 --> 00:09:00.350 It's the ultimate example of the song totally 00:09:00.350 --> 00:09:03.389 eclipsing the songwriter's fame. His work embedded 00:09:03.389 --> 00:09:05.590 itself in global culture. There are other big 00:09:05.590 --> 00:09:07.820 covers too, right? He seemed happy to let his 00:09:07.820 --> 00:09:09.899 bandmates have hits with his songs. Yeah, like 00:09:09.899 --> 00:09:12.460 I Knew the Bride when she used to rock and roll. 00:09:12.539 --> 00:09:15.000 Great tune. Became a signature hit for Dave Edmonds, 00:09:15.100 --> 00:09:17.000 his bandmate in Rock Pile. Sister of a songwriter. 00:09:17.220 --> 00:09:19.000 Definitely seemed that way. And then there's 00:09:19.000 --> 00:09:21.299 the Johnny Cash connection. Cash covered The 00:09:21.299 --> 00:09:24.419 Beast in Me. Such a brilliant dark song. Perfect 00:09:24.419 --> 00:09:27.000 for Cash. It really was. And it shows the breadth 00:09:27.000 --> 00:09:29.620 of Lowe's writing, you know. He could do punchy 00:09:29.620 --> 00:09:32.700 power pop, but also these really deep, soulful 00:09:32.700 --> 00:09:35.600 country ballads. That Cash cover is definitive. 00:09:36.190 --> 00:09:38.049 And we mentioned the Dr. Feelgood hits he co 00:09:38.049 --> 00:09:40.720 -wrote, Milk and Alcohol. That's it. I quit. 00:09:40.820 --> 00:09:43.759 He was just churning out quality material. Absolutely. 00:09:44.179 --> 00:09:46.440 Beyond the hooks, though, you have to appreciate 00:09:46.440 --> 00:09:49.379 his lyrical skill. He had this real wit, this 00:09:49.379 --> 00:09:53.100 love of wordplay, puns, clever turns of phrase. 00:09:53.299 --> 00:09:55.639 The novelty songs, as the sources call them. 00:09:55.740 --> 00:09:57.659 Yeah, though novelty might undersell them a bit. 00:09:57.740 --> 00:09:59.879 They're clever, often quite cutting. Think of 00:09:59.879 --> 00:10:02.620 titles like All Men Are Liars. Uh -huh. Yeah, 00:10:02.679 --> 00:10:04.960 pretty direct. Or Time Wounds All Heels, which 00:10:04.960 --> 00:10:06.759 he wrote with Carlene Carter. Just brilliant. 00:10:06.840 --> 00:10:09.159 Flipping that old saying. Yeah. He loved messed 00:10:09.159 --> 00:10:11.539 up. with cliches and expectations. And that early 00:10:11.539 --> 00:10:14.879 track, I Love My Label, under a fake name. Oh, 00:10:14.879 --> 00:10:17.879 that's pure low cheekiness. Recorded as Terry 00:10:17.879 --> 00:10:20.740 Modern of the Tartan Horde. It was basically 00:10:20.740 --> 00:10:23.080 a love song to United Artists, the label he'd 00:10:23.080 --> 00:10:25.500 left, released on Stiff, the label he'd founded 00:10:25.500 --> 00:10:27.919 to get away from labels like UA. That's layers 00:10:27.919 --> 00:10:30.539 of irony right there. Totally. And it makes sense 00:10:30.539 --> 00:10:32.820 that bands like Wilco covered I Love My Label 00:10:32.820 --> 00:10:35.279 years later. You know, artists who appreciate 00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:38.019 that kind of clever, slightly insider songwriting 00:10:38.019 --> 00:10:40.360 craft. That focus on craft and collaboration 00:10:40.360 --> 00:10:42.960 really defines his middle period too, especially 00:10:42.960 --> 00:10:45.639 with Rock Pile. Let's talk about that band dynamic. 00:10:45.919 --> 00:10:49.279 Okay, Rock Pile. On paper, low on bass, Dave 00:10:49.279 --> 00:10:51.879 Edmonds on guitar, Billy Bremner also on guitar, 00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:55.570 Terry Williams on drums. By all accounts... absolutely 00:10:55.570 --> 00:10:59.009 killer live band, super tight, energetic, mixing 00:10:59.009 --> 00:11:01.769 rockabilly, pub rock, power pop. But legally, 00:11:01.870 --> 00:11:04.690 a total mess. A complete nightmare. They played 00:11:04.690 --> 00:11:07.309 together constantly from about 75 to 80. Alo 00:11:07.309 --> 00:11:09.269 and Edmonds were signed to different record labels, 00:11:09.429 --> 00:11:12.210 had different managers. It was contractual chaos. 00:11:12.669 --> 00:11:14.429 So they couldn't release albums as Rockpile? 00:11:14.590 --> 00:11:16.870 Hardly ever. There's only one official studio 00:11:16.870 --> 00:11:19.470 album credited solely to Rockpile, and that's 00:11:19.470 --> 00:11:21.990 Seconds of Pleasure from 1980. Great record, 00:11:22.129 --> 00:11:24.429 includes tracks like When I Write the Book and 00:11:24.490 --> 00:11:26.990 heart. That wasn't all their work together, was 00:11:26.990 --> 00:11:30.090 it? This is the confusing part. Not at all. This 00:11:30.090 --> 00:11:32.230 is the key thing you need to know. Lowe's album, 00:11:32.389 --> 00:11:34.549 Labor of Lust, the one with Cruel to Be Kind, 00:11:34.750 --> 00:11:37.529 and Dave Edmonds' album, Repeat When Necessary, 00:11:37.590 --> 00:11:41.129 they were effectively rock pile albums. So same 00:11:41.129 --> 00:11:43.990 band. Just released under either Lowe's or Edmund's 00:11:43.990 --> 00:11:46.350 name to get around the label issues. Exactly. 00:11:46.429 --> 00:11:48.830 If you bought Labor of Lust, you got Lowe's singing, 00:11:48.889 --> 00:11:51.549 but it was Edmund's, Bremner, and Williams playing. 00:11:51.830 --> 00:11:53.889 Same for Edmund's record. It was the only way 00:11:53.889 --> 00:11:55.370 they could release the music they were making 00:11:55.370 --> 00:11:58.110 together. Man, the music business. Always finding 00:11:58.110 --> 00:12:00.029 ways to make things difficult. Tell me about 00:12:00.029 --> 00:12:01.970 it. It's classic Lowe's again, though, isn't 00:12:01.970 --> 00:12:04.789 it? Brilliant music, slightly obscured by these 00:12:04.789 --> 00:12:07.490 weird logistical hurdles. And that collaborative 00:12:07.490 --> 00:12:10.429 spirit bled into his personal life, too, leading 00:12:10.429 --> 00:12:12.389 to that really interesting connection with the 00:12:12.389 --> 00:12:14.570 carter cash family yeah this is quite a story 00:12:14.570 --> 00:12:18.509 in 1979 nick lowe marries carlene carter daughter 00:12:18.509 --> 00:12:21.330 of june carter cash and carl smith stepdaughter 00:12:21.330 --> 00:12:24.149 of johnny cash country music royalty right so 00:12:24.149 --> 00:12:28.190 suddenly this english new wave guy is part of 00:12:28.190 --> 00:12:30.549 one of the most legendary families in american 00:12:30.549 --> 00:12:34.149 music history they were married until 1990. must 00:12:34.149 --> 00:12:36.210 have been quite the culture clash or maybe synergy 00:12:36.679 --> 00:12:38.919 Seems like synergy, artistically at least. Lowe 00:12:38.919 --> 00:12:41.720 produced Carleen's album Musical Shapes, which, 00:12:41.799 --> 00:12:43.899 surprise, surprise, was basically a rock pile 00:12:43.899 --> 00:12:47.279 album. You got it. Blurring those lines again 00:12:47.279 --> 00:12:50.919 between rock and country, UK and US sounds. And 00:12:50.919 --> 00:12:54.860 here's a sweet detail. The promo video for Cruel 00:12:54.860 --> 00:12:58.600 to be Kind, it uses footage from Nick and Carleen's 00:12:58.600 --> 00:13:01.019 actual wedding. Oh, that's cool. A real home 00:13:01.019 --> 00:13:04.009 movie vibe. Yeah. And the family connection lasted 00:13:04.009 --> 00:13:06.690 beyond the marriage. He adopted Carlene's daughter, 00:13:06.809 --> 00:13:09.309 Tiffany. He stayed close with Johnny in June, 00:13:09.509 --> 00:13:12.169 played with Johnny, recorded with him. And Cash 00:13:12.169 --> 00:13:14.289 covering The Beast in Me came out of that relationship. 00:13:14.610 --> 00:13:17.490 For sure. Lowe even produced a single for Johnny 00:13:17.490 --> 00:13:20.570 Cash in 1980, Without Love. It just shows how 00:13:20.570 --> 00:13:22.470 respected Lowe's songwriting was that it could 00:13:22.470 --> 00:13:24.889 cross genres and generations like that. Even 00:13:24.889 --> 00:13:27.279 the man in black was a fan. Beyond Rock Pile 00:13:27.279 --> 00:13:29.159 and the family stuff, did he keep forming bands? 00:13:29.519 --> 00:13:31.860 He did. He had touring bands like Noise To Go 00:13:31.860 --> 00:13:34.419 and later The Cowboy Outfit. That band actually 00:13:34.419 --> 00:13:37.039 featured Paul Carrick on keyboards. Paul Carrick, 00:13:37.139 --> 00:13:39.360 great singer and musician. Yeah, from Squeeze, 00:13:39.700 --> 00:13:42.639 Mike, plus The Mechanics. And again, Lo helped 00:13:42.639 --> 00:13:44.980 him out, wrote songs for Carrick's solo career 00:13:44.980 --> 00:13:48.000 like I Live on a Battlefield and I Need You, 00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:50.460 always supporting his mates. Then there was Little 00:13:50.460 --> 00:13:52.799 Village, right? That sounded like a potential 00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:55.360 supergroup. It really did, on paper. Low on bass, 00:13:55.539 --> 00:13:58.240 John Hyatt on guitar and vocals, Ry Cooter on 00:13:58.240 --> 00:14:01.960 guitar, Jim Keltner on drums. Legends, all of 00:14:01.960 --> 00:14:04.159 them. How did that come about? They first got 00:14:04.159 --> 00:14:06.659 together as the backing band for John Hyatt's 00:14:06.659 --> 00:14:10.259 amazing 1987 album, Bring the Family. Recorded 00:14:10.259 --> 00:14:12.399 it super fast, incredible chemistry. So they 00:14:12.399 --> 00:14:14.620 thought, hey, let's be a proper band. But it 00:14:14.620 --> 00:14:16.840 didn't quite take off. They released one self 00:14:16.840 --> 00:14:19.950 -titled album in 1992. It was good stuff, but 00:14:19.950 --> 00:14:22.230 maybe the expectations were just too high for 00:14:22.230 --> 00:14:24.330 a band with that kind of pedigree. It's pretty 00:14:24.330 --> 00:14:26.850 short -lived. So after all this intense collaboration, 00:14:27.230 --> 00:14:28.950 did he start winding down the production work 00:14:28.950 --> 00:14:31.950 too? The basher role? Yeah, he became much more 00:14:31.950 --> 00:14:34.389 selective about producing from the mid -80s onwards. 00:14:34.750 --> 00:14:37.529 He did reunite with Elvis Costello to produce 00:14:37.529 --> 00:14:40.169 Blood and Chocolate in 1986, which was a return 00:14:40.169 --> 00:14:43.269 to a more raw sound for Costello. A final blast 00:14:43.269 --> 00:14:46.049 from the basher. Kind of. But after producing 00:14:46.049 --> 00:14:48.159 an album for a band called The Katie Diz, In 00:14:48.159 --> 00:14:51.320 1990, he pretty much hung up his producer hat 00:14:51.320 --> 00:14:53.460 for other artists. Declared retirement from the 00:14:53.460 --> 00:14:56.480 desk. Essentially. There was one tiny exception 00:14:56.480 --> 00:14:58.779 he got talked into producing one track for the 00:14:58.779 --> 00:15:00.879 Mavericks for the Apollo 13 soundtrack in 95. 00:15:01.320 --> 00:15:03.320 But other than that, yeah, Nick Lowe, the producer, 00:15:03.419 --> 00:15:05.700 was basically done. Which leads us neatly into 00:15:05.700 --> 00:15:09.440 that final fascinating chapter. The reinvention. 00:15:09.480 --> 00:15:12.139 The basher becomes the balladeer. This is where 00:15:12.139 --> 00:15:14.519 he directly confronts that fear of getting stuck, 00:15:14.519 --> 00:15:16.769 right? Absolutely. This wasn't just a gradual 00:15:16.769 --> 00:15:19.350 drift, it was a conscious, philosophical choice. 00:15:19.710 --> 00:15:22.250 He actively decided to move away from the sound 00:15:22.250 --> 00:15:24.029 he'd helped create. That quote you mentioned 00:15:24.029 --> 00:15:25.929 earlier really says it all. I didn't want to 00:15:25.929 --> 00:15:28.009 become one of those thinning -haired, jolly old 00:15:28.009 --> 00:15:30.190 geezers who still does the same shtick. They 00:15:30.190 --> 00:15:32.070 did when they were young, slim, and beautiful. 00:15:32.590 --> 00:15:35.929 That's revolting and rather tragic. Brutal honesty, 00:15:36.169 --> 00:15:38.610 isn't it? But it shows his artistic integrity. 00:15:39.029 --> 00:15:41.409 He wanted to age gracefully, musically speaking. 00:15:42.190 --> 00:15:45.360 Avoid becoming a parody. Exactly. So he moved 00:15:45.360 --> 00:15:47.799 out of what he called ironic pop and animated 00:15:47.799 --> 00:15:50.620 rock, you know, the fast, witty stuff, and deliberately 00:15:50.620 --> 00:15:54.080 cultivated this new persona, a worldly balladeer. 00:15:54.200 --> 00:15:56.720 Focusing on grave vocals and graceful tunes. 00:15:57.399 --> 00:16:00.519 It's quite a shift. A massive shift. And technically, 00:16:00.559 --> 00:16:03.120 it involved what he brilliantly called escaping 00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:05.919 the tyranny of the snare drum. He said that in 00:16:05.919 --> 00:16:08.960 a No Depression interview around 2001. Escaping 00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:11.399 the tyranny of the snare drum. I love that. What 00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:13.980 does that mean in practice? Less frantic drumming. 00:16:14.120 --> 00:16:16.679 Precisely. Think about power pop. The snare drum 00:16:16.679 --> 00:16:18.840 is often really loud, hitting on beats two and 00:16:18.840 --> 00:16:21.259 four, driving the song forward relentlessly. 00:16:21.299 --> 00:16:23.580 It dictates the energy, the pace. Right, it forces 00:16:23.580 --> 00:16:25.840 you into that high gear. Yeah. So by escaping 00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:28.299 it, he meant allowing the rhythm to be subtler, 00:16:28.360 --> 00:16:30.960 using brushes instead of sticks, maybe letting 00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:33.200 the acoustic guitar or a simple bass line carry 00:16:33.200 --> 00:16:35.840 the rhythm. It allowed space. Space for what? 00:16:35.960 --> 00:16:38.279 Space for him to sing differently. to sing more 00:16:38.279 --> 00:16:40.980 quietly explore the nuances of his voice as it 00:16:40.980 --> 00:16:44.299 aged critics noted he found these deeper nooks 00:16:44.299 --> 00:16:47.399 and crannies in his mature voice he wasn't shouting 00:16:47.399 --> 00:16:50.019 over a loud band anymore he could be more expressive 00:16:50.019 --> 00:16:53.600 more intimate exactly This new sound really started 00:16:53.600 --> 00:16:56.360 to emerge on the album The Impossible Bird in 00:16:56.360 --> 00:16:59.940 1994. And then he refined it on subsequent albums 00:16:59.940 --> 00:17:03.320 like Dig My Mood, The Convincer, At My Age, right 00:17:03.320 --> 00:17:05.099 up to The Old Magic. They're all part of this 00:17:05.099 --> 00:17:07.019 later phase. And musically, what was he drawing 00:17:07.019 --> 00:17:09.690 on for this sound? Deep American roots music. 00:17:09.890 --> 00:17:12.990 You hear vintage country textures, a lot of soul 00:17:12.990 --> 00:17:16.210 and R &B influence, gospel harmonies sometimes, 00:17:16.670 --> 00:17:19.970 think upright bass, maybe some pedal steel, tasteful 00:17:19.970 --> 00:17:22.769 arrangements. It's much slower, more reflective. 00:17:23.150 --> 00:17:24.730 The songs themselves change too, presumably. 00:17:25.009 --> 00:17:27.690 Less witty cynicism. Yeah, the lyrics became 00:17:27.690 --> 00:17:30.890 more about observation, aging, the complexities 00:17:30.890 --> 00:17:33.630 of relationships viewed from a distance. Still 00:17:33.630 --> 00:17:37.680 clever, but less overtly jokey. More... Elegant, 00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:39.759 I suppose. It's the sound of someone comfortable 00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:41.859 in their own skin not needing to impress with 00:17:41.859 --> 00:17:44.160 speed or volume. Like he finally allowed himself 00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:46.380 to slow down. It's a remarkable artistic evolution. 00:17:46.700 --> 00:17:49.099 It really is. But the interesting thing is, even 00:17:49.099 --> 00:17:51.339 though he wasn't chasing hits anymore, his influence 00:17:51.339 --> 00:17:53.400 continued. Younger artists were still paying 00:17:53.400 --> 00:17:55.400 attention. Like Alex Turner from Arctic Monkeys. 00:17:55.619 --> 00:17:58.339 Yeah, Turner's a great example. He cited Lowe 00:17:58.339 --> 00:18:01.299 as one of his favorite lyricists. Said Lowe's 00:18:01.299 --> 00:18:04.480 songwriting sent him back to square one. That's 00:18:04.480 --> 00:18:07.450 high praise. Suggest Low made him rethink his 00:18:07.450 --> 00:18:09.829 whole approach to writing lyrics. It does. It 00:18:09.829 --> 00:18:12.109 shows the enduring quality of the craftsmanship, 00:18:12.210 --> 00:18:14.869 doesn't it? That a modern songwriter known for 00:18:14.869 --> 00:18:17.569 his own sharp lyrics would look back to Low like 00:18:17.569 --> 00:18:20.130 that. And Low himself hasn't just stopped, has 00:18:20.130 --> 00:18:22.349 he? He's kept working, kept touring in this later 00:18:22.349 --> 00:18:24.769 style. Not at all. He even released a Christmas 00:18:24.769 --> 00:18:28.329 album in 2013, Quality Street, with his typical 00:18:28.329 --> 00:18:30.650 wit, of course. Of course. And touring. He's 00:18:30.650 --> 00:18:33.250 toured quite a bit. often with sympathetic collaborators. 00:18:33.650 --> 00:18:36.349 He did tours with Wilco, which makes total sense 00:18:36.349 --> 00:18:39.029 musically. And for years now, he's frequently 00:18:39.029 --> 00:18:41.029 toured with Lost Straight Jackets. The instrumental 00:18:41.029 --> 00:18:43.630 band who wear Mexican wrestling masks. That's 00:18:43.630 --> 00:18:46.369 them. It's a brilliant pairing, actually. They 00:18:46.369 --> 00:18:49.430 provide this fantastic, versatile backing, very 00:18:49.430 --> 00:18:52.670 respectful of the songs, and their whole masked 00:18:52.670 --> 00:18:55.690 schtick kind of fits Lowe's own preference for 00:18:55.690 --> 00:18:57.730 letting the music do the talking. And he's still 00:18:57.730 --> 00:18:59.990 showing up in interesting places. Newport Folk 00:18:59.990 --> 00:19:02.880 Festival recently. Yeah. Yeah, July 2024, according 00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:05.160 to the source material, helped close the festival, 00:19:05.319 --> 00:19:07.380 shared the stage with Conan O 'Brien, of all 00:19:07.380 --> 00:19:10.319 people. Still relevant, still respected. From 00:19:10.319 --> 00:19:13.079 pub rock to folk festival headliner, quite a 00:19:13.079 --> 00:19:15.200 journey. So just to round off the personal picture, 00:19:15.339 --> 00:19:17.220 he's based in London now. Lives in Brentford, 00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:20.240 yep. Married again in 2010 to a designer named 00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:22.519 Peter Waddington. And they have a son together. 00:19:22.900 --> 00:19:25.859 Seems like a settled, contented later life. Okay, 00:19:25.900 --> 00:19:27.839 so let's... Try and pull all these threads together. 00:19:28.079 --> 00:19:30.920 We've traced this incredible five -decade path 00:19:30.920 --> 00:19:33.720 of Nick Lowe. We started with Basher, the Stiff 00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:36.039 Records house producer, launching punk and new 00:19:36.039 --> 00:19:39.539 wave on that tiny 400 -pound loan, defining that 00:19:39.539 --> 00:19:41.920 raw, energetic sound. Then we looked at the songwriter 00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:44.059 paradox, at the guy whose songs were often huge 00:19:44.059 --> 00:19:46.259 hits for other people. Yeah. What's so funny 00:19:46.259 --> 00:19:49.299 about peace, love, and understanding being the 00:19:49.299 --> 00:19:51.839 ultimate example, reaching millions via the bodyguard? 00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:54.640 We untangled the Rockpile years, that amazing 00:19:54.640 --> 00:19:56.980 band hampered by a record company of politics, 00:19:57.220 --> 00:19:59.579 and his fascinating connection into the Carter 00:19:59.579 --> 00:20:01.920 Cash dynasty. Yeah, the British New Waiver marrying 00:20:01.920 --> 00:20:05.099 into American country royalty. And finally, we 00:20:05.099 --> 00:20:08.339 saw his deliberate, graceful shift away from 00:20:08.339 --> 00:20:10.720 pop stardom, escaping the tyranny of the snare 00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:14.099 drum, to become this respected, worldly balladeer, 00:20:14.119 --> 00:20:16.759 actively choosing reinvention over nostalgia. 00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:21.269 So now when you hear Cruel to be Kind or peace, 00:20:21.410 --> 00:20:23.890 love, and understanding, or even the beast in 00:20:23.890 --> 00:20:26.509 me, you know the full story behind the man who 00:20:26.509 --> 00:20:29.829 wrote them. You understand the why behind his 00:20:29.829 --> 00:20:31.890 career choices. And it brings us back to that 00:20:31.890 --> 00:20:34.829 central paradox. His work is arguably much better 00:20:34.829 --> 00:20:37.190 known than his name or face. Which leads to our 00:20:37.190 --> 00:20:39.509 final thought for you. In today's world, everyone 00:20:39.509 --> 00:20:41.769 seems obsessed with personal branding, with being 00:20:41.769 --> 00:20:43.930 famous for being famous, you know, constantly 00:20:43.930 --> 00:20:45.750 seeking the spotlight. Yeah, it's all about visibility. 00:20:46.539 --> 00:20:48.619 So here's the question. Is there maybe a different 00:20:48.619 --> 00:20:50.859 kind of success, perhaps even a quieter kind 00:20:50.859 --> 00:20:54.319 of victory, in what Nick Lowe achieved? Letting 00:20:54.319 --> 00:20:57.099 your actual work, the songs, the craft, become 00:20:57.099 --> 00:20:59.880 globally famous and enduring, while you yourself 00:20:59.880 --> 00:21:02.599 managed to retain a degree of anonymity, stepping 00:21:02.599 --> 00:21:04.980 back from the fame game. Is there something more 00:21:04.980 --> 00:21:07.799 lasting, maybe more artistically pure, in having 00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:10.259 the art transcend the artist? Nick Lowe's career 00:21:10.259 --> 00:21:12.180 certainly makes you wonder. Something to think 00:21:12.180 --> 00:21:12.420 about.