WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.379 Welcome back to The Deep Dive. If you're looking 00:00:02.379 --> 00:00:05.379 for maybe a shortcut to understanding filmmakers 00:00:05.379 --> 00:00:08.820 who, you know, don't rely on big spectacle, but 00:00:08.820 --> 00:00:11.759 more on that raw, sometimes painful, often really 00:00:11.759 --> 00:00:14.980 funny observation, well, you've come to the right 00:00:14.980 --> 00:00:17.519 place. Definitely. Today we are taking a really 00:00:17.519 --> 00:00:20.460 fascinating deep dive into the world of director 00:00:20.460 --> 00:00:23.519 and screenwriter Nicole Holofcener. Yeah, Nicole 00:00:23.519 --> 00:00:27.699 Holofcener, born March 22, 1960, in New York 00:00:27.699 --> 00:00:31.640 City. And she holds this really unique space 00:00:31.640 --> 00:00:33.719 in modern film, doesn't she? She really does. 00:00:34.020 --> 00:00:36.539 She's known for these intimate, character -driven 00:00:36.539 --> 00:00:38.820 indie films. You know, the ones that really get 00:00:38.820 --> 00:00:40.659 into middle -class American life, the Neuroses. 00:00:40.840 --> 00:00:43.539 But at the same time, she's also achieved this 00:00:43.539 --> 00:00:46.899 major success as an award -winning screenwriter, 00:00:47.020 --> 00:00:49.920 tackling huge adaptations. And when we say major 00:00:49.920 --> 00:00:52.100 success, we're talking top -tier industry recognition. 00:00:52.200 --> 00:00:53.600 I mean, you have to start right at the top. Can 00:00:53.600 --> 00:00:56.500 you ever forgive me in 2018? Her work on that. 00:00:57.200 --> 00:00:59.700 It wasn't just praised by critics. She got an 00:00:59.700 --> 00:01:01.899 Academy Award nomination, a BAFTA nomination, 00:01:02.219 --> 00:01:04.519 and actually won the Writers Guild of America 00:01:04.519 --> 00:01:07.359 Award for Best Adapted Screenplay. Shared it 00:01:07.359 --> 00:01:10.620 with Jeff Witte. Which is huge. Yeah. And that 00:01:10.620 --> 00:01:13.500 kind of dual career, it's fascinating. Mastering 00:01:13.500 --> 00:01:17.359 her own deeply personal indie stuff and the really 00:01:17.359 --> 00:01:21.480 technical structured adaptations. That really 00:01:21.480 --> 00:01:23.359 sets the stage for what we want to do today. 00:01:23.500 --> 00:01:26.299 Right. Our goal here is to trace how she got 00:01:26.299 --> 00:01:28.760 there. You know, from being a kid on Woody Allen 00:01:28.760 --> 00:01:31.659 sets, through studying to Scorsese, all the way 00:01:31.659 --> 00:01:33.780 to her recent films like You Hurt My Feelings. 00:01:33.920 --> 00:01:36.140 We want to understand how she built that signature 00:01:36.140 --> 00:01:38.739 style, right? That human comedy thing she does 00:01:38.739 --> 00:01:41.500 so well. Exactly. Capturing the messy, sometimes 00:01:41.500 --> 00:01:44.459 really awkward realities of everyday life. We 00:01:44.459 --> 00:01:46.159 need to get beyond just the labels and see how 00:01:46.159 --> 00:01:48.680 these films actually work. How she pulls it off. 00:01:48.900 --> 00:01:51.040 Okay, so let's unpack that foundation. Because 00:01:51.040 --> 00:01:53.120 it feels absolutely critical to understanding 00:01:53.120 --> 00:01:55.909 the texture, the feel of her later work. It's 00:01:55.909 --> 00:01:59.230 this foundation steeped in, like, classic East 00:01:59.230 --> 00:02:01.670 Coast intellectual Hollywood, even though her 00:02:01.670 --> 00:02:04.549 films feel so indie. Hashtag tech tie eye. The 00:02:04.549 --> 00:02:06.730 Educational and Hollywood Foundation. Well, she 00:02:06.730 --> 00:02:09.110 was born into this culturally Jewish family in 00:02:09.110 --> 00:02:12.289 New York. Very artistic. Her dad, Lawrence Hall 00:02:12.289 --> 00:02:15.110 of Senior, was an artist. And her mom, Carol 00:02:15.110 --> 00:02:18.110 Jaffa, a set decorator. Right. So art and visuals 00:02:18.110 --> 00:02:20.090 were there from the start. Definitely. You get 00:02:20.090 --> 00:02:23.110 that sense of a home focused on culture, on storytelling 00:02:23.110 --> 00:02:26.620 through images. But things changed pretty dramatically. 00:02:26.620 --> 00:02:28.680 And early on, her parents divorced when she was 00:02:28.680 --> 00:02:32.199 only one. Yeah. And the really pivotal moment, 00:02:32.259 --> 00:02:34.219 the one that seems career defining, came when 00:02:34.219 --> 00:02:36.889 she was eight. Her mom remarried. Right. To the 00:02:36.889 --> 00:02:38.830 film producer, Charles H. Jaffa. And they moved 00:02:38.830 --> 00:02:40.569 the whole family from New York out to Hollywood. 00:02:40.650 --> 00:02:42.930 And Charles H. Jaffa. I mean, that's the connection, 00:02:43.050 --> 00:02:45.949 the direct link to big time filmmaking. Oh, absolutely. 00:02:46.150 --> 00:02:48.009 He produced pretty much all of Woody Allen's 00:02:48.009 --> 00:02:50.990 films back then. So young Nicole Holofcener gets 00:02:50.990 --> 00:02:55.169 this just incredible direct pipeline into how 00:02:55.169 --> 00:02:57.409 movies are actually made. It wasn't just visiting 00:02:57.409 --> 00:02:59.909 sets. She was on them. She was an extra in early 00:02:59.909 --> 00:03:03.960 Allen films like Take the Money and Run. Which 00:03:03.960 --> 00:03:06.479 is cool. Being an extra is one thing, but Jaffe 00:03:06.479 --> 00:03:09.020 was key in getting her actual industry jobs too, 00:03:09.099 --> 00:03:12.560 right? Yeah. He got her first proper gig, a production 00:03:12.560 --> 00:03:15.080 assistant role. On a Midsummer Night's Sex Comedy, 00:03:15.240 --> 00:03:18.639 1982, Woody Allen again. Exactly. And this is 00:03:18.639 --> 00:03:20.860 where it shifts, I think, from just watching 00:03:20.860 --> 00:03:24.460 to actually doing building skills. After the 00:03:24.460 --> 00:03:26.699 PA job, she moved into the editing room. She 00:03:26.699 --> 00:03:28.759 was an apprentice editor on Hannah and Her Sisters, 00:03:28.900 --> 00:03:32.729 1986. Wow. Hannah and her sisters. I mean, think 00:03:32.729 --> 00:03:35.889 about that film. It's a masterclass in weaving 00:03:35.889 --> 00:03:37.909 together all these different character stories, 00:03:38.009 --> 00:03:39.849 these intimate narratives. Precisely the kind 00:03:39.849 --> 00:03:42.569 of thing Holofcener would become known for in 00:03:42.569 --> 00:03:45.250 her own ensemble films, like Friends With Money. 00:03:45.449 --> 00:03:48.949 So she was absorbing the rhythms of that intellectual 00:03:48.949 --> 00:03:51.710 character -focused filmmaking from a really young 00:03:51.710 --> 00:03:54.310 age. Deeply absorbing it, yeah. It's funny, though, 00:03:54.310 --> 00:03:56.449 because despite being immersed in all this Hollywood 00:03:56.449 --> 00:03:59.090 stuff, she didn't initially jump at filmmaking 00:03:59.090 --> 00:04:01.930 herself. No, her first idea was art, like her 00:04:01.930 --> 00:04:04.129 father. She went to Sonoma State University to 00:04:04.129 --> 00:04:09.090 pursue that. But she felt... What? That she wasn't 00:04:09.090 --> 00:04:10.810 quite good enough. Yeah, she felt she lacked 00:04:10.810 --> 00:04:13.129 that, you know, special talent compared to the 00:04:13.129 --> 00:04:15.710 other students. Which is interesting. How so? 00:04:16.069 --> 00:04:19.009 That feeling. That sense of being maybe just 00:04:19.009 --> 00:04:22.069 good enough, but not brilliant. That's something 00:04:22.069 --> 00:04:23.730 you see in a lot of her characters later on. 00:04:23.850 --> 00:04:26.910 That kind of insecurity. Huh. Yeah, I can see 00:04:26.910 --> 00:04:28.689 that. But it pushed her toward film courses. 00:04:29.579 --> 00:04:31.839 And that led her down the formal academic route, 00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:34.459 getting the structure maybe the sets didn't provide. 00:04:34.720 --> 00:04:38.699 She got a BFA from NYU's Tisch School. And then 00:04:38.699 --> 00:04:41.199 an MFA from Columbia. Right. And the mentorship 00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:43.920 she got at Columbia. It's pretty staggering. 00:04:44.139 --> 00:04:47.279 Yeah. Who taught her? Martin Scorsese. Wow. Scorsese. 00:04:47.279 --> 00:04:50.740 I mean, he's a master of pace, editing, using 00:04:50.740 --> 00:04:52.879 film language to show what's going on inside 00:04:52.879 --> 00:04:55.079 someone's head. Exactly. So if Joff and Alan 00:04:55.079 --> 00:04:58.129 gave her the context, the milieu. Scorsese gave 00:04:58.129 --> 00:05:00.430 her the technical tools to express it. But the 00:05:00.430 --> 00:05:03.649 path wasn't smooth sailing, even then. There's 00:05:03.649 --> 00:05:05.810 that story about her stepfather. Oh, yeah, the 00:05:05.810 --> 00:05:08.750 anecdote where Jaffe saw one of her student films 00:05:08.750 --> 00:05:11.629 from NYU. And basically told her maybe she should 00:05:11.629 --> 00:05:14.709 think about a different career. Yeah. Imagine 00:05:14.709 --> 00:05:16.829 hearing that from the producer of Woody Allen. 00:05:17.029 --> 00:05:21.110 Like, maybe this isn't your thing. Ouch. That's 00:05:21.110 --> 00:05:24.129 rough. Super rough. And the source says she was... 00:05:24.279 --> 00:05:26.040 you know understandably pretty crushed by that 00:05:26.040 --> 00:05:28.319 she actually worked for a bit as a clerk in a 00:05:28.319 --> 00:05:30.600 video store you're kidding yeah before she sort 00:05:30.600 --> 00:05:33.259 of regrouped got into columbia's grad program 00:05:33.259 --> 00:05:36.600 and well ultimately proved him wrong that video 00:05:36.600 --> 00:05:39.800 store detour it feels significant like a moment 00:05:39.800 --> 00:05:42.759 of hitting pause and then really committing shows 00:05:42.759 --> 00:05:45.519 her perseverance it really does and the commitment 00:05:45.519 --> 00:05:47.839 paid off especially in the indie world pretty 00:05:47.839 --> 00:05:52.259 quickly despite the setbacks the doubts She made 00:05:52.259 --> 00:05:54.480 two short films that got praised at Sundance, 00:05:54.620 --> 00:05:59.319 Angry and It's Richard I Love. So she found her 00:05:59.319 --> 00:06:02.000 footing. She did. And the source is clear. By 00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:04.060 the time her stepfather passed away in 2008, 00:06:04.279 --> 00:06:06.379 he'd become, quote, one of the most ardent fans 00:06:06.379 --> 00:06:08.879 of his stepdaughter's work. Wow, that's a full 00:06:08.879 --> 00:06:13.250 circle. From doubt to ardent fan. That really 00:06:13.250 --> 00:06:15.110 highlights how intense that Hollywood foundation 00:06:15.110 --> 00:06:18.370 was, both the support and the pressure. Hashtag 00:06:18.370 --> 00:06:21.230 tag tag to to defining the Hall of Senior style 00:06:21.230 --> 00:06:24.170 and themes. OK, so she's got this foundation, 00:06:24.329 --> 00:06:26.750 the Woody Allen influence, the Scorsese training. 00:06:27.069 --> 00:06:29.790 But when she starts making her own films, she 00:06:29.790 --> 00:06:31.930 develops what everyone now calls the Hall of 00:06:31.930 --> 00:06:34.519 Senior style. Let's really try to pin this down. 00:06:34.639 --> 00:06:37.920 What defines this human comedy style? Well, fundamentally, 00:06:38.060 --> 00:06:40.220 it comes from her being an indie filmmaker, right? 00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:42.699 Even when her film started making money. Okay. 00:06:42.779 --> 00:06:45.319 Her work always uses those indie conventions. 00:06:45.660 --> 00:06:49.379 It looks realistic, grounded, often shot in location. 00:06:49.480 --> 00:06:51.639 The camera feels intimate. It feels, you know, 00:06:51.639 --> 00:06:53.959 lived in. Not glossy or manufactured. And that 00:06:53.959 --> 00:06:55.699 lived in feel goes right into the stories themselves, 00:06:55.939 --> 00:06:57.839 the structure. That seems key. Absolutely key. 00:06:57.959 --> 00:07:00.959 Her films often deliberately sidestep a neat, 00:07:01.040 --> 00:07:03.279 tidy plot structure. You know, the classic three 00:07:03.279 --> 00:07:05.740 acts. Right. Goal, obstacle, resolution. Yeah, 00:07:05.759 --> 00:07:07.540 she kind of rejects that. Her characters aren't 00:07:07.540 --> 00:07:09.879 always clearly stating a goal, fighting obvious 00:07:09.879 --> 00:07:12.300 obstacles, and then succeeding or failing decisively 00:07:12.300 --> 00:07:16.100 at the end. So the source uses this term obscure 00:07:16.100 --> 00:07:18.860 plot structure. What exactly does that mean? 00:07:18.920 --> 00:07:21.240 It doesn't mean confusing, right? No, not confusing 00:07:21.240 --> 00:07:24.399 or like super experimental. It means the emotional 00:07:24.399 --> 00:07:28.120 stakes are incredibly high. Okay. But the external 00:07:28.120 --> 00:07:31.279 plot stakes are often deliberately quite low. 00:07:31.680 --> 00:07:34.379 So instead of, I don't know, finding lost treasure, 00:07:34.600 --> 00:07:37.579 the characters are maybe trying to achieve self 00:07:37.579 --> 00:07:40.019 -acceptance or figure out an ethical problem 00:07:40.019 --> 00:07:43.579 or just manage to say something really uncomfortable 00:07:43.579 --> 00:07:46.379 to a friend. The big conflicts are internal, 00:07:46.639 --> 00:07:49.060 relational. Not external and dramatic. So the 00:07:49.060 --> 00:07:51.560 plot feels obscured because we're so focused 00:07:51.560 --> 00:07:54.160 on the characters' inner lives, their messy relationships. 00:07:54.639 --> 00:07:56.639 Exactly. Which brings us right to our main theme. 00:07:56.990 --> 00:07:59.509 that focus on typical, everyday, middle -class 00:07:59.509 --> 00:08:02.029 people. Why middle class, specifically? What's 00:08:02.029 --> 00:08:03.850 the draw there? Well, I think it's because the 00:08:03.850 --> 00:08:06.050 middle class often carries this specific set 00:08:06.050 --> 00:08:08.389 of anxieties, right? You've got some economic 00:08:08.389 --> 00:08:10.569 insecurity, maybe mixed with social expectations. 00:08:10.689 --> 00:08:14.069 Huge status anxiety, yeah. And lots of ethical 00:08:14.069 --> 00:08:16.629 gymnastics trying to balance it all. Holoxener 00:08:16.629 --> 00:08:19.910 zooms in on the small, often really cringe -worthy 00:08:19.910 --> 00:08:23.050 mistakes these people make about money, friendship, 00:08:23.350 --> 00:08:26.939 family, guilt. Can you give us a specific example? 00:08:27.019 --> 00:08:30.939 Like, how does this human comedy actually play 00:08:30.939 --> 00:08:33.740 out in a film? Okay, sure. Think about Please 00:08:33.740 --> 00:08:37.139 Give. 2010. The main characters are this couple 00:08:37.139 --> 00:08:39.299 in Manhattan. They have a vintage furniture store. 00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:41.179 Right. Buying stuff from people who've recently 00:08:41.179 --> 00:08:43.919 died. Exactly. And they're doing OK financially, 00:08:44.100 --> 00:08:45.840 but they're wrestling with the morality of it. 00:08:45.960 --> 00:08:48.100 And the husband wants to expand their apartment 00:08:48.100 --> 00:08:50.419 by taking space from their elderly neighbor. 00:08:50.620 --> 00:08:52.240 Well, the neighbor's granddaughter is basically 00:08:52.240 --> 00:08:54.159 just waiting for her to die so they can sell 00:08:54.159 --> 00:08:56.259 the place. Right. It's not some big, dramatic 00:08:56.259 --> 00:08:59.620 crime plot. It's this agonizing, slow burn, ethical 00:08:59.620 --> 00:09:02.820 mess. It's fueled by ambition and that sort of 00:09:02.820 --> 00:09:05.379 middle class. entitlement, but it's all masked 00:09:05.379 --> 00:09:08.279 by this layer of liberal guilt. And the comedy 00:09:08.279 --> 00:09:10.879 isn't laugh out loud jokes. No, not at all. The 00:09:10.879 --> 00:09:13.259 comedy comes from watching these characters try 00:09:13.259 --> 00:09:16.759 so hard and mostly fail to be good people while 00:09:16.759 --> 00:09:19.259 they're simultaneously benefiting from someone 00:09:19.259 --> 00:09:21.440 else's misfortune or waiting for it. That's a 00:09:21.440 --> 00:09:23.500 key distinction. It's comedy from uncomfortable 00:09:23.500 --> 00:09:26.200 recognition. You watch them try to square that 00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:29.190 circle, wanting more. But wanting to feel morally 00:09:29.190 --> 00:09:32.190 okay about it. Yes. And that focus on what's 00:09:32.190 --> 00:09:34.909 going on inside, the complex relationships, it 00:09:34.909 --> 00:09:37.409 ties right into her character focus, too. Her 00:09:37.409 --> 00:09:40.110 films nearly always have a female lead. Exploring 00:09:40.110 --> 00:09:43.470 sisterhood, motherhood, friendship. Yeah, professional 00:09:43.470 --> 00:09:46.000 struggles, too. And this consistent perspective, 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:48.580 combined with her really sharp understanding 00:09:48.580 --> 00:09:51.159 of modern women often juggling careers and personal 00:09:51.159 --> 00:09:53.919 lives, it made her a natural fit for directing 00:09:53.919 --> 00:09:56.440 female -centric TV early on. And we have to talk 00:09:56.440 --> 00:09:58.120 about Catherine Keener here. She's in four of 00:09:58.120 --> 00:09:59.899 the first five films Hall of Senior directed. 00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:02.840 Why was Keener such a perfect collaborator for 00:10:02.840 --> 00:10:05.919 this style? Oh, Keener just embodies that mix, 00:10:06.019 --> 00:10:08.100 doesn't she? Intelligence, vulnerability, but 00:10:08.100 --> 00:10:11.509 also this very palpable neurosis. She's brilliant 00:10:11.509 --> 00:10:14.809 at showing huge internal struggles with just 00:10:14.809 --> 00:10:18.129 a look or an awkward pause, not big emotional 00:10:18.129 --> 00:10:20.889 outbursts. Right. Subtle. Very subtle. Keanu 00:10:20.889 --> 00:10:23.429 or Lett Hall have seen her really lean into nuance 00:10:23.429 --> 00:10:26.909 and subtext. She wasn't playing these idealized 00:10:26.909 --> 00:10:29.429 Hollywood heroines. She was playing women whose 00:10:29.429 --> 00:10:32.590 lives felt a bit frayed, maybe a little cynical, 00:10:32.750 --> 00:10:35.190 but still searching for something real. She was 00:10:35.190 --> 00:10:37.909 the perfect vessel for those everyday ethical 00:10:37.909 --> 00:10:40.899 struggles and failures. Okay, so we've kind of 00:10:40.899 --> 00:10:43.179 defined the style. Now we can trace how it developed 00:10:43.179 --> 00:10:45.179 through the seven features she wrote and directed, 00:10:45.240 --> 00:10:47.360 starting back in 96. Right, with Walking and 00:10:47.360 --> 00:10:49.580 Talking. That was her debut, and it really set 00:10:49.580 --> 00:10:51.440 the template, didn't it? Critically acclaimed 00:10:51.440 --> 00:10:53.980 right away. It did. Focus entirely on female 00:10:53.980 --> 00:10:55.899 friendship, the anxieties around turning 30. 00:10:56.039 --> 00:10:58.740 And Catherine Keener was the lead. That immediately 00:10:58.740 --> 00:11:00.580 signaled this wasn't going to be some glossy 00:11:00.580 --> 00:11:03.399 rom -com. No, it was about real messy relationships. 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:06.779 And the cast she assembled, Anne Hesch, Todd 00:11:06.779 --> 00:11:09.340 Field, Liev Schreiber, Kevin Corrigan, it showed 00:11:09.340 --> 00:11:11.299 she could handle an ensemble. Yeah, where the 00:11:11.299 --> 00:11:14.440 chemistry, the awkward silences were just as 00:11:14.440 --> 00:11:16.860 important as the dialogue. Then five years later, 00:11:17.039 --> 00:11:20.940 2001, Lovely and Amazing comes out. And this 00:11:20.940 --> 00:11:23.480 one went deeper into female relationships, I 00:11:23.480 --> 00:11:26.110 think. focused on a mother and her three daughters, 00:11:26.289 --> 00:11:29.990 all dealing with body image issues, self -worth, 00:11:30.169 --> 00:11:33.350 love lives. Another critical hit. And this one 00:11:33.350 --> 00:11:35.190 did well at the box office, too, which is important. 00:11:35.470 --> 00:11:38.250 It is. It showed her observational indie style 00:11:38.250 --> 00:11:40.269 could actually connect with a broader audience. 00:11:40.629 --> 00:11:43.470 She still had Keener, but also Brenda Bluthin, 00:11:43.529 --> 00:11:46.070 Emily Mortimer. Then comes Friends With Money 00:11:46.070 --> 00:11:49.590 in 2006, premiered at Sundance. This one really 00:11:49.590 --> 00:11:51.830 zeroed in on that friction when friends have 00:11:51.830 --> 00:11:53.870 different amounts of money. Yeah, a theme she 00:11:53.870 --> 00:11:56.669 returns to. And the cast here was seriously high 00:11:56.669 --> 00:12:00.070 profile. Jennifer Aniston, Joan Cusack, Frances 00:12:00.070 --> 00:12:02.330 McDormand, and Keener again. But the core theme 00:12:02.330 --> 00:12:04.809 was pure Hall of Senior, wasn't it? How class 00:12:04.809 --> 00:12:06.970 differences, that status anxiety we talked about, 00:12:07.029 --> 00:12:09.370 can sort of poison friendships. Absolutely. And 00:12:09.370 --> 00:12:11.309 the industry noticed. It got an Independent Spirit 00:12:11.309 --> 00:12:13.659 Award nomination for the screenplay. And Frances 00:12:13.659 --> 00:12:16.220 McDormand won Best Supporting Female at the Spirits. 00:12:16.259 --> 00:12:19.059 Right. That indie spirit validation is significant. 00:12:19.159 --> 00:12:21.820 It's peer recognition from the indie community 00:12:21.820 --> 00:12:24.580 saying, yes, she's channeling our ethos, even 00:12:24.580 --> 00:12:27.460 with big stars like Aniston involved. Her fourth 00:12:27.460 --> 00:12:31.259 film, Please Give, from 2010, really cemented 00:12:31.259 --> 00:12:33.679 her critical reputation. Premiered at Sundance 00:12:33.679 --> 00:12:36.500 again, played Berlin, Tribeca. This was the one 00:12:36.500 --> 00:12:39.259 we discussed earlier. Dealing so directly with 00:12:39.259 --> 00:12:41.980 those urban, affluent, ethical dilemmas. And 00:12:41.980 --> 00:12:44.620 this film got her specific recognition as a director. 00:12:45.019 --> 00:12:47.019 She won the Robert Altman Award at the Independent 00:12:47.019 --> 00:12:49.139 Spirit Awards. Which goes to the director, casting 00:12:49.139 --> 00:12:51.120 director, and the whole ensemble cast, right? 00:12:51.159 --> 00:12:52.940 Exactly. It's a prize that honors that specific 00:12:52.940 --> 00:12:55.720 skill of casting perfectly and orchestrating 00:12:55.720 --> 00:12:58.580 the group dynamic. All those characters wrestling 00:12:58.580 --> 00:13:01.679 with guilt and privilege. Keener was there again 00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:04.360 with Oliver Platt, Rebecca Hall, Amanda Peete. 00:13:04.539 --> 00:13:06.820 Okay, now we get to what feels like the commercial 00:13:06.820 --> 00:13:10.039 breakthrough. Enough Said in 2013, premiered 00:13:10.039 --> 00:13:12.580 at Toronto, still her biggest box office success. 00:13:12.879 --> 00:13:14.899 Yeah, and what's so smart about Enough Said is 00:13:14.899 --> 00:13:17.480 how she blended her signature style with a more 00:13:17.480 --> 00:13:20.559 accessible concept, the rom -com. Starring Julia 00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:23.080 Lee Dreyfuss, who is just perfect for that kind 00:13:23.080 --> 00:13:25.860 of neurotic comedy. Absolutely, and James Gandolfini 00:13:25.860 --> 00:13:29.259 in one of his last roles. The plot is pure Hall 00:13:29.259 --> 00:13:32.809 of Senior, though. A divorced woman, Eva, starts 00:13:32.809 --> 00:13:35.809 dating this great guy. Only to find out he's 00:13:35.809 --> 00:13:38.149 the ex -husband her new friend, played by Keener, 00:13:38.289 --> 00:13:40.389 naturally constantly complains about. Right. 00:13:40.470 --> 00:13:43.149 And the tension isn't external. It's all internal. 00:13:43.409 --> 00:13:47.070 It comes from Eva's failure, her inability to 00:13:47.070 --> 00:13:48.909 just tell the truth in this incredibly awkward 00:13:48.909 --> 00:13:51.700 situation. It's the ultimate human comedy setup. 00:13:51.919 --> 00:13:54.940 The obstacle to happiness is just social awkwardness 00:13:54.940 --> 00:13:57.860 and dishonesty. Pretty much. Yeah. And its success 00:13:57.860 --> 00:14:00.200 proved her nuanced style could hit the mainstream, 00:14:00.539 --> 00:14:03.000 especially with stars people recognized and loved. 00:14:03.159 --> 00:14:05.299 After that big success, she seemed to return 00:14:05.299 --> 00:14:08.080 to more intimate stories, still writing, directing, 00:14:08.279 --> 00:14:10.940 and producing. 2018 gave us the land of steady 00:14:10.940 --> 00:14:13.340 habits. Yeah, another character study. Midlife 00:14:13.340 --> 00:14:15.440 crisis, consequences of blowing up your life 00:14:15.440 --> 00:14:18.330 for freedom. Classic Holocene territory. And 00:14:18.330 --> 00:14:20.429 then most recently, as of when the source material 00:14:20.429 --> 00:14:23.409 was gathered, 2023's You Hurt My Feelings. Right, 00:14:23.470 --> 00:14:25.870 teaming up with Julia Louis -Dreyfus again. This 00:14:25.870 --> 00:14:29.830 one explored marriage, honesty, the little white 00:14:29.830 --> 00:14:32.789 lies. Premiered at Sundance, distributed by A24, 00:14:33.110 --> 00:14:35.350 which signals she's still very much relevant 00:14:35.350 --> 00:14:37.730 in that top tier of indie film. It looks at how 00:14:37.730 --> 00:14:40.049 just one small moment of overhearing something 00:14:40.049 --> 00:14:42.789 can potentially unravel a whole relationship 00:14:42.789 --> 00:14:46.039 built on mutual support. or perceived support. 00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:48.659 Yeah, that delicate balance. Yeah. Hashtag, hashtag 00:14:48.659 --> 00:14:50.679 AV, the acclaimed screenwriter in collaborative 00:14:50.679 --> 00:14:53.700 works. So those seven films really define her 00:14:53.700 --> 00:14:55.559 as a writer -director, but there's this whole 00:14:55.559 --> 00:14:58.539 other major track to her career. the collaborative 00:14:58.539 --> 00:15:00.899 work, especially adapted screenplays. Right, 00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:02.919 and this is where she got the most sort of official 00:15:02.919 --> 00:15:05.700 industry hardware, the awards. It shows a different 00:15:05.700 --> 00:15:08.419 skill set, not just the personal voice, but master 00:15:08.419 --> 00:15:10.460 craftswoman of structure. And the prime example 00:15:10.460 --> 00:15:13.480 has to be Can You Ever Forgive Me? in 2018, adapting 00:15:13.480 --> 00:15:16.259 Lee Israel's memoir. She co -wrote that with 00:15:16.259 --> 00:15:18.759 Jeff Witte. Yeah, and that's a tricky story. 00:15:18.860 --> 00:15:22.019 A complex, dark character, a cynical literary 00:15:22.019 --> 00:15:25.299 forger. You need a really careful touch to balance 00:15:25.299 --> 00:15:28.500 the misanthropy with humor. and maybe some pathos. 00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:30.500 And this project had some behind -the -scenes 00:15:30.500 --> 00:15:32.679 drama regarding who would direct, didn't it? 00:15:32.759 --> 00:15:35.299 It did. It's fascinating. The original plan was 00:15:35.299 --> 00:15:38.279 for Holocener herself to direct it, and Julianne 00:15:38.279 --> 00:15:41.259 Moore was cast as Lee Israel. Okay. But then, 00:15:41.379 --> 00:15:43.539 the source notes, later that year, Moore was 00:15:43.539 --> 00:15:46.600 fired by Holocener. Wow. And then after that, 00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:49.639 Holocener herself decided to step away from directing 00:15:49.639 --> 00:15:52.139 the film. Wait, she fired a huge star and then 00:15:52.139 --> 00:15:54.740 left the project herself? That says a lot. About 00:15:54.740 --> 00:15:58.019 creative conviction, maybe, or rigidity. It definitely 00:15:58.019 --> 00:16:01.019 suggests she has a very clear, maybe non -negotiable 00:16:01.019 --> 00:16:03.679 vision for her work. The exact reasons aren't 00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:06.279 public, but it points to someone willing to walk 00:16:06.279 --> 00:16:09.460 rather than compromise on the core tone or performance 00:16:09.460 --> 00:16:12.379 she wanted. So who ended up directing? Marielle 00:16:12.379 --> 00:16:14.440 Heller directed it, and Melissa McCarthy ended 00:16:14.440 --> 00:16:17.460 up starring. But crucially, Hollis -Cener's adapted 00:16:17.460 --> 00:16:20.379 screenplay stayed. the writing itself was seen 00:16:20.379 --> 00:16:22.720 as essential. And that writing won big time. 00:16:22.840 --> 00:16:25.299 Despite all the director changes, her script 00:16:25.299 --> 00:16:28.139 got that huge wave of recognition. Oscar nom, 00:16:28.460 --> 00:16:31.519 BAFTA nom, Critics' Choice nom, and the wins 00:16:31.519 --> 00:16:34.120 at the WGA Awards and Satellite Awards for Best 00:16:34.120 --> 00:16:36.919 Adapted Screenplay. Yeah. And if we link this 00:16:36.919 --> 00:16:39.059 back to what we said earlier about her obscure 00:16:39.059 --> 00:16:42.539 plot structures in her own films, this win... 00:16:42.779 --> 00:16:45.220 for Can You Ever Forgive Me, really confirmed 00:16:45.220 --> 00:16:48.019 something important. When she's adapting complex 00:16:48.019 --> 00:16:51.100 source material, like a memoir, she absolutely 00:16:51.100 --> 00:16:54.460 can impose perfect, tight narrative structure. 00:16:54.759 --> 00:16:58.240 Lee Israel's messy life needed that clear, purposeful 00:16:58.240 --> 00:17:00.919 script. So the awards prove she has that technical 00:17:00.919 --> 00:17:04.099 mastery of shaping a story. Does that success 00:17:04.099 --> 00:17:06.799 as an adapter maybe free her up to be more loose, 00:17:06.900 --> 00:17:09.339 more obscure when she's creating her own original 00:17:09.339 --> 00:17:11.039 stuff? It seems like an interesting balance. 00:17:11.380 --> 00:17:13.599 It really suggests a certain confidence, doesn't 00:17:13.599 --> 00:17:16.180 it? She knows she can nail the rigorous structured 00:17:16.180 --> 00:17:18.920 work that Hollywood often demands. Maybe that 00:17:18.920 --> 00:17:20.960 gives her the freedom, the permission to explore 00:17:20.960 --> 00:17:23.700 the messier, less structured side of character 00:17:23.700 --> 00:17:25.859 in her own films. And what's also striking is 00:17:25.859 --> 00:17:28.079 how quickly she followed that adaptation success 00:17:28.079 --> 00:17:31.299 by showing incredible range in scale and genre. 00:17:31.420 --> 00:17:34.400 I mean, the last duel in 2021. Whoa. Yeah. A 00:17:34.400 --> 00:17:36.359 medieval epic. Yeah. Directed by Ridley Scott. 00:17:36.440 --> 00:17:38.380 That's about as far from Please Give's Manhattan 00:17:38.380 --> 00:17:40.640 Apartments as you can get. Totally. And she's 00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:42.819 credited as a writer and producer on it, working 00:17:42.819 --> 00:17:45.259 alongside Matt Damon and Ben Affleck. It really 00:17:45.259 --> 00:17:47.839 shows she can bring her core sensibility that 00:17:47.839 --> 00:17:50.640 focus on character dynamics, complex motivations, 00:17:50.920 --> 00:17:54.079 believable dialogue, even to a massive historical 00:17:54.079 --> 00:17:57.119 film about, you know, assault, honor, systemic 00:17:57.119 --> 00:18:00.519 injustice. The scale is huge, but her involvement 00:18:00.519 --> 00:18:02.440 likely helped ensure the female perspective, 00:18:02.799 --> 00:18:05.039 Marguerite de Carrouges' story, was handled with 00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:07.619 nuance. Yeah, bringing that holopscener touch 00:18:07.619 --> 00:18:10.240 to a different kind of story. And she also had 00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:13.220 an earlier writing -only credit on a 2014 film 00:18:13.220 --> 00:18:15.980 called Every Secret Thing. So her career really 00:18:15.980 --> 00:18:18.559 does have these two strong currents, the intimate, 00:18:18.680 --> 00:18:21.059 observational director of her own stories and 00:18:21.059 --> 00:18:23.700 the technically skilled adapter. Hashtag hashtag 00:18:23.700 --> 00:18:26.759 V. television versatility, and specific directing 00:18:26.759 --> 00:18:29.440 highlights. That film sensibility she has, understanding 00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:32.299 modern women, tricky ethical spots, social dynamics, 00:18:32.559 --> 00:18:33.759 it made her really appealing for television, 00:18:33.940 --> 00:18:36.220 didn't it? Especially smart, character -focused 00:18:36.220 --> 00:18:39.200 shows. Oh, absolutely. She became this go -to 00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:42.400 director for prestige TV with strong female characters 00:18:42.400 --> 00:18:44.599 pretty early on. Yeah. Because she's so good 00:18:44.599 --> 00:18:47.119 at directing actors through that emotional subtext, 00:18:47.160 --> 00:18:49.359 the unspoken stuff. Like Sex and the City, she 00:18:49.359 --> 00:18:51.799 directed four episodes back between 98 and 2000. 00:18:52.809 --> 00:18:55.630 including key ones like Are We Sluts? and Bay 00:18:55.630 --> 00:18:57.910 of Married Pigs. Yeah, and Sex and the City, 00:18:57.990 --> 00:19:00.690 while it looks glamorous, those episodes really 00:19:00.690 --> 00:19:03.990 hinge on uncomfortable, complex conversations 00:19:03.990 --> 00:19:08.319 about social rules, female friendship. Independence. 00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:11.220 Hall of Seniors knack for capturing awkward moments 00:19:11.220 --> 00:19:13.180 must have been perfect for that. Totally perfect. 00:19:13.400 --> 00:19:15.220 And the common thread in her TV work is that 00:19:15.220 --> 00:19:17.539 ability to quickly establish character dynamics 00:19:17.539 --> 00:19:20.859 and ground difficult emotional stuff. She also 00:19:20.859 --> 00:19:22.859 directed an episode of Gilmore Girls in 2002, 00:19:23.339 --> 00:19:26.019 Secrets and Loans, handling that mother -daughter 00:19:26.019 --> 00:19:27.880 drama. And she didn't just stick to relationship 00:19:27.880 --> 00:19:30.619 comedy drama. She tackled serious prestige drama, 00:19:30.819 --> 00:19:33.420 too, like Six Feet Under. Right. Two episodes 00:19:33.420 --> 00:19:37.680 between 2003 and 2004, Bomb Shelter. and timing 00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:39.819 and space. And directing Six Feet Under, that's 00:19:39.819 --> 00:19:42.779 a whole different emotional world. Grief, existential 00:19:42.779 --> 00:19:45.400 stuff, the quiet failures within the Fisher family. 00:19:45.700 --> 00:19:48.579 Exactly. Her moving from the kind of anxiety 00:19:48.579 --> 00:19:51.460 in Sex and the City to the deep sadness in Six 00:19:51.460 --> 00:19:54.119 Feet Under just shows her core strength isn't 00:19:54.119 --> 00:19:56.740 really about genre. It's about emotional truth. 00:19:57.079 --> 00:19:59.079 She gets to the heart of the characters quickly. 00:19:59.299 --> 00:20:01.380 That versatility just kept going, especially 00:20:01.380 --> 00:20:03.940 into comedy and pilots. She directed the pilot 00:20:03.940 --> 00:20:06.849 for a leap of faith. Which shows trust, right? 00:20:06.930 --> 00:20:09.609 Setting the tone for a whole series. Yeah, definitely. 00:20:09.829 --> 00:20:12.609 And then in 2015, she directed the pilot and 00:20:12.609 --> 00:20:15.609 more episodes of Amazon's One Mississippi. Which 00:20:15.609 --> 00:20:18.029 was created by Tig Notaro and Diablo Cody. That's 00:20:18.029 --> 00:20:20.589 quite a lineup. It is. And One Mississippi is 00:20:20.589 --> 00:20:22.990 that blend of dark comedy and memoir dealing 00:20:22.990 --> 00:20:26.500 with grief. Awkward family stuff, themes right 00:20:26.500 --> 00:20:29.059 in her wheelhouse. She also directed episodes 00:20:29.059 --> 00:20:30.900 of other really distinctive comedies around that 00:20:30.900 --> 00:20:33.640 time. Bored to Death, Togetherness, Unbreakable 00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:36.519 Kimmy Schmidt, Inside Amy Schumer. We definitely 00:20:36.519 --> 00:20:38.599 have to mention her work on Parks and Recreation, 00:20:38.619 --> 00:20:41.819 too, for episodes, including the Pawnee Eagleton 00:20:41.819 --> 00:20:44.599 tip -off classic and the very emotional Jerry's 00:20:44.599 --> 00:20:47.279 Retirement. Yeah, and Parks and Rec needed a 00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:49.140 slightly different touch, maybe. Yeah. It's a 00:20:49.140 --> 00:20:51.740 broader satire. But Holocener's direction helped 00:20:51.740 --> 00:20:54.730 keep the humor grounded. real emotion, making 00:20:54.730 --> 00:20:57.069 sure characters like Leslie or Jerry felt like 00:20:57.069 --> 00:20:59.509 actual people you cared about, not just joke 00:20:59.509 --> 00:21:03.049 machines. She brought her realism into that stylized 00:21:03.049 --> 00:21:05.289 comedy world. And she's still directing in the 00:21:05.289 --> 00:21:08.170 prestige streaming era, which shows amazing longevity 00:21:08.170 --> 00:21:11.890 and adaptability. Recently, episodes of Extrapolations, 00:21:11.890 --> 00:21:14.309 that climate change drama. Right, serious stuff. 00:21:14.589 --> 00:21:17.250 And multiple episodes of Lucky Hank with Bob 00:21:17.250 --> 00:21:20.240 Odenkirk in 2023. The sheer range of those TV 00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:22.799 credits is incredible. High drama, relationship 00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:26.119 comedy, workplace satire. It just underlines 00:21:26.119 --> 00:21:28.079 that if a show needs someone to handle complex, 00:21:28.140 --> 00:21:30.519 often uncomfortable human interactions with a 00:21:30.519 --> 00:21:33.000 sensitive touch, Holocener's name is clearly 00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:35.819 high on the list. Hashtag, hashtag, outro. So 00:21:35.819 --> 00:21:38.160 if we try to pull it all together, Nicole Holocener's 00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:40.519 career, it feels deeply rooted in observational 00:21:40.519 --> 00:21:42.519 cinema, doesn't it? Absolutely. She took those 00:21:42.519 --> 00:21:45.420 early influences, the urban neuroses of Woody 00:21:45.420 --> 00:21:48.039 Allen's world. maybe, and combine them with the 00:21:48.039 --> 00:21:50.579 technical skills she honed under Scorsese. And 00:21:50.579 --> 00:21:53.059 her big contribution is that human comedy style. 00:21:53.599 --> 00:21:56.599 Films driven by character, focused on the messy, 00:21:56.740 --> 00:21:59.819 complicated, sometimes ethically murky lives 00:21:59.819 --> 00:22:02.440 of middle -class people, especially women. Yeah, 00:22:02.480 --> 00:22:05.160 people who are trying, and often failing, to 00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:07.920 be decent while also navigating their own desires 00:22:07.920 --> 00:22:10.779 and status concerns. Her work really does hold 00:22:10.779 --> 00:22:13.069 up a mirror, I think. Whether it's dealing with 00:22:13.069 --> 00:22:14.990 friendship and getting older and walking and 00:22:14.990 --> 00:22:18.069 talking or the really uncomfortable mix of money, 00:22:18.170 --> 00:22:21.390 guilt and secrets and friends with money or you 00:22:21.390 --> 00:22:23.970 hurt my feelings. She's constantly showing us 00:22:23.970 --> 00:22:26.410 those small everyday moments and choices that 00:22:26.410 --> 00:22:28.470 actually reveal so much about who we are and 00:22:28.470 --> 00:22:29.990 what we worry about. And we keep coming back 00:22:29.990 --> 00:22:32.769 to that fascinating dual identity she has. On 00:22:32.769 --> 00:22:34.789 one hand, the intimate writer -director making 00:22:34.789 --> 00:22:37.789 original films with those obscure plots focused 00:22:37.789 --> 00:22:39.990 on internal life. And on the other hand, the 00:22:39.990 --> 00:22:41.859 award -winning adapter who can... take a really 00:22:41.859 --> 00:22:44.900 complex, established story like Lee Israel's 00:22:44.900 --> 00:22:48.519 life and shape it into this perfect, tight, acclaimed 00:22:48.519 --> 00:22:51.460 screenplay. Okay, so here's a final thought for 00:22:51.460 --> 00:22:54.019 you, the listener, to consider. We've talked 00:22:54.019 --> 00:22:56.859 about how her original films often feel loose, 00:22:56.960 --> 00:23:00.700 exploratory, not bound by typical plots. Yet 00:23:00.700 --> 00:23:03.359 her biggest awards, that major industry validation, 00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:06.779 came from mastering the very structured demands 00:23:06.779 --> 00:23:10.519 of adaptation. So does that proven ability to 00:23:10.519 --> 00:23:13.539 succeed in the mainstream structured world, the 00:23:13.539 --> 00:23:16.079 acclaim she got for shaping someone else's story 00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:19.460 so effectively, does that actually free her creatively 00:23:19.460 --> 00:23:22.119 when she goes back to her own original work? 00:23:22.259 --> 00:23:25.299 Does it let her be more experimental, more obscure? 00:23:25.640 --> 00:23:27.880 What can we learn from a filmmaker who navigates 00:23:27.880 --> 00:23:30.619 that line so well, balancing that deep Hollywood 00:23:30.619 --> 00:23:33.019 foundation, the Joffie Allen connection, with 00:23:33.019 --> 00:23:35.039 the fierce independence of her observational 00:23:35.039 --> 00:23:37.420 style? It really feels like a career built on... 00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:39.480 showing us that the small stuff, the quiet failures, 00:23:39.640 --> 00:23:42.359 the awkward silences, the tiny betrayals, that's 00:23:42.359 --> 00:23:44.759 where the real, often painful comedy of being 00:23:44.759 --> 00:23:45.720 human actually resides.