WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.899 Okay, so let's dive in. Annie Baker. She's, well, 00:00:04.019 --> 00:00:08.320 arguably one of the most essential, maybe paradoxical... 00:00:09.740 --> 00:00:11.500 American playwrights working today, wouldn't 00:00:11.500 --> 00:00:13.960 you say, over the last, what, 15 years? Oh, absolutely 00:00:13.960 --> 00:00:16.120 essential. And paradoxical is exactly the right 00:00:16.120 --> 00:00:18.160 word. I mean, she's racked up these huge awards 00:00:18.160 --> 00:00:21.420 of Pulitzer, the MacArthur Genius Grant, Obies. 00:00:21.519 --> 00:00:23.620 Right, the list goes on. But here's the kicker, 00:00:23.640 --> 00:00:27.000 the paradox you mentioned. She got all this acclaim 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:30.500 by deliberately trying to make theater that feels, 00:00:30.820 --> 00:00:33.899 well, she's quoted as saying, as untheatrical 00:00:33.899 --> 00:00:36.299 as possible. Which, it's just fascinating, isn't 00:00:36.299 --> 00:00:39.679 it? Making theater by almost not making theater 00:00:39.679 --> 00:00:41.140 in the conventional sense. It's a remarkable 00:00:41.140 --> 00:00:43.259 contradiction, yeah. And it makes her such a 00:00:43.259 --> 00:00:45.560 compelling figure in contemporary art. She, you 00:00:45.560 --> 00:00:47.399 know, slows everything down on stage, makes us 00:00:47.399 --> 00:00:49.340 really sit with silence, focuses on the totally 00:00:49.340 --> 00:00:52.479 mundane. The everyday stuff. Exactly. But somehow, 00:00:52.579 --> 00:00:55.020 through that really intense observation, she 00:00:55.020 --> 00:00:57.759 uncovers something profound. You could argue 00:00:57.759 --> 00:01:00.159 she's really shifted what audiences even consider 00:01:00.159 --> 00:01:02.439 drama. She's been at the forefront of that change. 00:01:02.700 --> 00:01:05.120 So that's our mission. for this deep dive and 00:01:05.120 --> 00:01:07.920 we want to trace that journey look at her background 00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:11.599 really get into dissecting that signature anti 00:01:11.599 --> 00:01:14.359 -theatrical style that shook things up and also 00:01:14.359 --> 00:01:16.159 touch on her more recent move which is pretty 00:01:16.159 --> 00:01:19.099 significant into directing feature films we want 00:01:19.099 --> 00:01:23.140 to give you the listener the full picture of 00:01:23.140 --> 00:01:24.939 an artist who didn't just challenge expectations 00:01:24.939 --> 00:01:28.379 but you know totally succeeded because of it 00:01:28.569 --> 00:01:30.469 And we should probably dig into her methods, 00:01:30.549 --> 00:01:32.810 her inspirations. But maybe before we get into 00:01:32.810 --> 00:01:36.209 the the real high art stagecraft, we should start 00:01:36.209 --> 00:01:38.409 with this little detail from her early days. 00:01:38.489 --> 00:01:40.590 Oh, yes. This is brilliant. It's kind of unexpected, 00:01:40.829 --> 00:01:43.090 but it really sets the stage, so to speak, for 00:01:43.090 --> 00:01:45.409 understanding her whole commitment to authenticity 00:01:45.409 --> 00:01:48.950 later on. A unique perspective on reality versus, 00:01:48.989 --> 00:01:52.209 well, manufactured reality. OK, lay it on us. 00:01:52.269 --> 00:01:53.810 This is one of my favorite bits from the sources. 00:01:54.030 --> 00:01:56.569 Before she was the queen of hypernaturalism off 00:01:56.569 --> 00:01:59.370 Broadway. What was she doing? Well, according 00:01:59.370 --> 00:02:01.489 to our sources, one of her early jobs was working 00:02:01.489 --> 00:02:03.969 as a guest wrangler. A guest wrangler. Yeah. 00:02:04.170 --> 00:02:06.969 Helping manage the contestants on, wait for it, 00:02:07.049 --> 00:02:09.949 the reality TV show The Bachelor. No way. The 00:02:09.949 --> 00:02:12.250 Bachelor. That's almost performance art in itself. 00:02:12.330 --> 00:02:14.750 The contrast. Yeah. Talk about a clash of worlds. 00:02:14.969 --> 00:02:17.729 Couldn't script it better, could you? Right. 00:02:17.810 --> 00:02:19.710 So let's unpack her background a bit because 00:02:19.710 --> 00:02:23.419 knowing where she came from, her... her academic 00:02:23.419 --> 00:02:26.960 path, it helps make sense of why she maybe felt 00:02:26.960 --> 00:02:28.900 the need to break the rules so thoroughly later. 00:02:29.039 --> 00:02:30.840 Okay. She was born in Cambridge, Massachusetts, 00:02:31.039 --> 00:02:33.800 April 81, but actually grew up mostly in Amherst, 00:02:33.800 --> 00:02:35.460 Massachusetts. Amherst. Okay. So like classic 00:02:35.460 --> 00:02:38.060 New England intellectual hub vibe. Exactly. And 00:02:38.060 --> 00:02:40.159 her family fits right into that. Her father, 00:02:40.340 --> 00:02:42.979 Con Nugent, he was an administrator for the five 00:02:42.979 --> 00:02:45.099 colleges consortium there. Pretty prestigious. 00:02:45.340 --> 00:02:48.080 Right. And her mother, Linda Baker, was a psychology 00:02:48.080 --> 00:02:51.639 doctoral student. So you've got academia, analysis, 00:02:51.939 --> 00:02:55.199 observation, baked right in. Yeah, you can see 00:02:55.199 --> 00:02:57.020 how an environment like that might prize, you 00:02:57.020 --> 00:02:59.860 know, careful observation, language, how people 00:02:59.860 --> 00:03:02.419 pick. Definitely. And there's clearly a strong 00:03:02.419 --> 00:03:05.000 literary thing going on, too. We should note 00:03:05.000 --> 00:03:08.500 her background is mixed Irish Catholic father, 00:03:08.719 --> 00:03:11.620 Jewish mother, and her brother, Benjamin Baker 00:03:11.620 --> 00:03:15.280 Nugent, he's an author, too. Ah, okay. So writing, 00:03:15.439 --> 00:03:18.860 scrutinizing human behavior. It was kind of the 00:03:18.860 --> 00:03:21.650 family business in a way. Seems like it. But 00:03:21.650 --> 00:03:24.250 it wasn't just osmosis. Her formal training was 00:03:24.250 --> 00:03:27.710 rigorous, very focused on dramatic writing structure, 00:03:27.930 --> 00:03:30.469 which is interesting given how she later dismantled 00:03:30.469 --> 00:03:33.189 it. Where did she study? She got her BFA from 00:03:33.189 --> 00:03:35.389 the Department of Dramatic Writing at NYU's Tisch 00:03:35.389 --> 00:03:38.110 School of the Arts, big name program. Okay, solid 00:03:38.110 --> 00:03:40.050 foundation. And she didn't stop there. She followed 00:03:40.050 --> 00:03:42.389 that up with postgraduate work, which feels really 00:03:42.389 --> 00:03:45.009 key. She got her MFA in playwriting from Brooklyn 00:03:45.009 --> 00:03:48.030 College, finished up in 2009. 2009, okay. That 00:03:48.030 --> 00:03:50.330 academic grounding is crucial, I think. It wasn't 00:03:50.330 --> 00:03:52.419 just raw. talent. She really studied dramatic 00:03:52.419 --> 00:03:55.099 form, which means when she started subtracting 00:03:55.099 --> 00:03:57.500 things later, like conventional plots, she knew 00:03:57.500 --> 00:04:00.080 exactly what rules she was breaking and why it 00:04:00.080 --> 00:04:01.879 was intentional. Right. She learned the structure 00:04:01.879 --> 00:04:05.599 to deconstruct it. And that MFA date, 2009, that 00:04:05.599 --> 00:04:07.580 lines up pretty closely with when her first plays 00:04:07.580 --> 00:04:09.580 started getting serious attention. Exactly. Things 00:04:09.580 --> 00:04:11.259 were starting to happen for her right around 00:04:11.259 --> 00:04:13.159 then. But let's just circle back for a second 00:04:13.159 --> 00:04:18.060 to that unexpected early job, the bachelor guest 00:04:18.060 --> 00:04:22.170 wrangler thing, the In contrast with the kind 00:04:22.170 --> 00:04:25.029 of art she's famous for, it's just massive. We 00:04:25.029 --> 00:04:26.490 have to sit with that for a moment. We really 00:04:26.490 --> 00:04:28.769 do. Because think about it. On one hand, you've 00:04:28.769 --> 00:04:31.790 got reality TV. Right. High drama. Highly produced. 00:04:32.189 --> 00:04:35.889 Edited for maximum conflict. Fast cuts. Explicit 00:04:35.889 --> 00:04:39.050 narratives. Producer -driven storylines. Everything 00:04:39.050 --> 00:04:41.069 is ramped up, even if the stakes are totally 00:04:41.069 --> 00:04:43.350 manufactured. To your artifice, basically. And 00:04:43.350 --> 00:04:45.110 then, on the other hand, you have Annie Baker's 00:04:45.110 --> 00:04:47.370 plays, which are praised for being the polar 00:04:47.370 --> 00:04:50.370 opposite. Low stakes, long silences, real -time 00:04:50.370 --> 00:04:53.410 action, deliberately avoiding anything that feels 00:04:53.410 --> 00:04:55.870 like manipulation or fake drama. So connecting 00:04:55.870 --> 00:04:59.730 those dots, being a guest wrangler, the person 00:04:59.730 --> 00:05:01.829 literally managing the contestants in that artificial 00:05:01.829 --> 00:05:05.209 environment, that must have given her this incredibly 00:05:05.209 --> 00:05:09.490 clear, maybe even cynical view of the gap between 00:05:09.490 --> 00:05:12.490 performance, the face people put on under pressure, 00:05:12.569 --> 00:05:16.480 and just... messy, unvarnished reality. You have 00:05:16.480 --> 00:05:18.180 to think so. So when she later writes a play 00:05:18.180 --> 00:05:20.259 like The Flick, where the main action is two 00:05:20.259 --> 00:05:22.980 people silently sweeping up popcorn. Yeah, of 00:05:22.980 --> 00:05:25.519 minutes on end. Right. She's making a conscious, 00:05:25.620 --> 00:05:28.040 artistic choice against the loud, engineered 00:05:28.040 --> 00:05:30.100 narratives of the world she saw in The Bachelor. 00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:32.519 It's a deliberate rejection. So her naturalism 00:05:32.519 --> 00:05:35.310 isn't just... like a style choice. It's almost 00:05:35.310 --> 00:05:38.810 a philosophical commitment to authenticity may 00:05:38.810 --> 00:05:41.189 be born from seeing the extreme opposite up close. 00:05:41.350 --> 00:05:42.889 I think that's a great way to put it. She saw 00:05:42.889 --> 00:05:47.160 performance and she chose quiet truth. Unflinching 00:05:47.160 --> 00:05:49.660 slow truth. Okay, so let's move into that really 00:05:49.660 --> 00:05:52.019 defining early period. This is where her unique 00:05:52.019 --> 00:05:54.360 style gets established and where critics started 00:05:54.360 --> 00:05:56.839 using that term anti -theatrical. We're talking 00:05:56.839 --> 00:05:59.920 about her Shirley VT universe. Right, the fictional 00:05:59.920 --> 00:06:02.300 small town in Vermont that anchors her first 00:06:02.300 --> 00:06:04.540 few major plays. This is crucial for understanding 00:06:04.540 --> 00:06:07.100 how her voice developed. Which plays are we talking 00:06:07.100 --> 00:06:09.300 about specifically in the Shirley series? The 00:06:09.300 --> 00:06:12.139 core ones are Body Awareness, that was 2008, 00:06:12.360 --> 00:06:15.399 her off -Broadway debut, then Circle Mirror Transformation 00:06:15.399 --> 00:06:19.740 in 2009, and The Aliens in 2010. These three 00:06:19.740 --> 00:06:23.019 really laid out her territory. Ordinary people, 00:06:23.300 --> 00:06:26.180 small town, often isolated lives. And what's 00:06:26.180 --> 00:06:28.759 really striking is how quickly the theater world, 00:06:28.920 --> 00:06:31.740 especially regionally, seemed to recognize that 00:06:31.740 --> 00:06:34.160 these plays were connected, that this was a specific 00:06:34.160 --> 00:06:36.420 project. Oh, totally. There was this amazing 00:06:36.420 --> 00:06:39.620 moment, October, November 2010, three Boston 00:06:39.620 --> 00:06:42.360 theater companies all decided to produce these 00:06:42.360 --> 00:06:45.480 three Shirley plays at the same time. Wow. Which 00:06:45.480 --> 00:06:47.079 companies? It was the Huntington Theatre Company, 00:06:47.360 --> 00:06:50.420 Speakeasy Stage, and Company One, a major collaboration. 00:06:50.839 --> 00:06:53.180 It showed this immediate belief in what she was 00:06:53.180 --> 00:06:55.199 doing, this shared sense that her aesthetic was 00:06:55.199 --> 00:06:57.100 something important right from the start. So 00:06:57.100 --> 00:06:59.819 let's nail down that aesthetic. What is it? Why 00:06:59.819 --> 00:07:02.279 did people immediately jump on this anti -theatrical 00:07:02.279 --> 00:07:05.040 idea back in 2008? What does it actually feel 00:07:05.040 --> 00:07:07.000 like for the audience? Well, the critics were 00:07:07.000 --> 00:07:09.819 surprisingly consistent early on. Time Out New 00:07:09.819 --> 00:07:13.100 York, back in 2008, they said she creates normal 00:07:13.100 --> 00:07:15.319 individuals coping with everyday issues in their 00:07:15.319 --> 00:07:18.439 small town lives. And crucially, they noted her 00:07:18.439 --> 00:07:21.480 work aims for sincerity instead of just being 00:07:21.480 --> 00:07:24.180 clever. Sincerity over cleverness. Yeah. That 00:07:24.180 --> 00:07:27.319 feels key. Not witty banter, not shocking twists, 00:07:27.680 --> 00:07:31.230 just... Truthfulness. Exactly. Behavioral truth. 00:07:31.550 --> 00:07:34.209 And that sincerity leads directly to why people 00:07:34.209 --> 00:07:36.430 started calling it anti -theatrical. The New 00:07:36.430 --> 00:07:37.949 Yorker really hit it on the head. They said she 00:07:37.949 --> 00:07:40.050 pioneered a style where life on stage is meant 00:07:40.050 --> 00:07:43.310 to be so vivid, natural and emotionally precise 00:07:43.310 --> 00:07:46.430 that it bleeds into the audience's visceral experience 00:07:46.430 --> 00:07:49.660 of time and space. Wow. So it's theater trying 00:07:49.660 --> 00:07:51.639 not to feel like theater. It wants to merge with 00:07:51.639 --> 00:07:53.720 your own sense of time. Precisely. It refuses 00:07:53.720 --> 00:07:56.160 to perform its theatricality. It's about radical 00:07:56.160 --> 00:07:57.939 observation, like you said. Can you give us a 00:07:57.939 --> 00:08:00.339 concrete example? What's a classic Baker moment 00:08:00.339 --> 00:08:02.699 that illustrates this? Okay, a perfect example, 00:08:02.879 --> 00:08:05.100 again from the flick. There's a stage direction, 00:08:05.420 --> 00:08:07.699 I believe, that basically says a character sweeps 00:08:07.699 --> 00:08:11.540 the floor for three minutes, silently, just sweeping 00:08:11.540 --> 00:08:14.600 popcorn. Three whole minutes of sweeping. Yep. 00:08:15.129 --> 00:08:19.509 In real time. No music, no cutting away. A conventional 00:08:19.509 --> 00:08:21.990 play would speed through that, right? Or use 00:08:21.990 --> 00:08:23.930 it for exposition. Baker makes you sit through 00:08:23.930 --> 00:08:26.350 the sweeping. That insistence on the mundane 00:08:26.350 --> 00:08:29.709 task, on not speeding up time, that's the core 00:08:29.709 --> 00:08:32.909 of it. It challenges you, but it also makes the 00:08:32.909 --> 00:08:35.549 moment incredibly real. Which means the audience 00:08:35.549 --> 00:08:37.769 has to completely recalibrate their expectations. 00:08:38.769 --> 00:08:40.690 The Daily Beast pointed this out. They said her 00:08:40.690 --> 00:08:43.009 skill is making the audience work hard to figure 00:08:43.009 --> 00:08:46.970 things out. It's demanding but enriching. And 00:08:46.970 --> 00:08:49.330 they flat out said her stuff isn't for people 00:08:49.330 --> 00:08:53.169 who want easy A leads to B plots and spoon fed 00:08:53.169 --> 00:08:55.389 meanings. Right. It shifts your focus. You stop 00:08:55.389 --> 00:08:57.549 asking what happens next and start asking what's 00:08:57.549 --> 00:08:59.350 happening right now. Suddenly an awkward silence, 00:08:59.450 --> 00:09:01.610 a nervous glance, a cough that becomes the drama. 00:09:01.830 --> 00:09:04.320 She holds up a mirror. but holds it very still, 00:09:04.399 --> 00:09:06.179 making us look at the parts of life we usually 00:09:06.179 --> 00:09:08.399 edit out. And this challenging style didn't, 00:09:08.399 --> 00:09:11.039 like, bomb. It got rewarded instantly. Circle 00:09:11.039 --> 00:09:13.399 Mirror Transformation and The Aliens. They actually 00:09:13.399 --> 00:09:15.480 shared the Obie Award for Best New American Play 00:09:15.480 --> 00:09:19.340 in 2010. Shared it, which is rare. And The Aliens 00:09:19.340 --> 00:09:21.700 was also a finalist for the Susan Smith Blackburn 00:09:21.700 --> 00:09:24.879 Prize that same year. So major recognition very 00:09:24.879 --> 00:09:28.000 early on. Okay, so she's defined by this hyper 00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:30.720 -contemporary, small -town American naturalism. 00:09:30.990 --> 00:09:33.570 Which makes her next move interesting. Adapting 00:09:33.570 --> 00:09:36.210 a 19th century Russian classic. Seems like a 00:09:36.210 --> 00:09:38.649 jump, right? But actually, it makes perfect sense 00:09:38.649 --> 00:09:40.809 when you think about who she adapted. In 2012, 00:09:41.090 --> 00:09:44.070 she did Anton Chekhov's Uncle Vanya for Soho 00:09:44.070 --> 00:09:46.509 Rep. Ah, Chekhov. Okay, that connection clicks. 00:09:46.789 --> 00:09:49.110 He's the master of characters who talk about 00:09:49.110 --> 00:09:51.450 doing things but never quite manage it, right? 00:09:51.549 --> 00:09:55.029 The famous dramatic inertia. Exactly. Chekhov 00:09:55.029 --> 00:09:57.789 is all about that deep inner life simmering beneath 00:09:57.789 --> 00:10:00.230 the surface. People yearning for Moscow, yearning 00:10:00.230 --> 00:10:03.429 for change, but stuck. Trapped in ennui and stasis. 00:10:03.750 --> 00:10:07.039 Baker is totally his modern air. Translates that 00:10:07.039 --> 00:10:09.600 same profound sadness and longing into contemporary 00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:11.960 American speech patterns. She gets that sometimes 00:10:11.960 --> 00:10:14.039 the hardest thing is just enduring the lack of 00:10:14.039 --> 00:10:16.419 meaning. And her Vanya adaptation, it was directed 00:10:16.419 --> 00:10:18.519 by Sam Gold, right? We'll talk more about him. 00:10:18.860 --> 00:10:22.059 Yes, a crucial collaborator. We'll definitely 00:10:22.059 --> 00:10:24.899 circle back to Gold. Their version was really 00:10:24.899 --> 00:10:27.179 well received. The New York Times called it funky 00:10:27.179 --> 00:10:30.000 fresh, which suggests her ear for natural dialogue 00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:31.940 really worked, even on a classic text. And the 00:10:31.940 --> 00:10:33.899 cast for that was pretty stellar, too, wasn't 00:10:33.899 --> 00:10:36.700 it? Oh, incredible cast. Reed Burney played Vanya. 00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:40.340 Michael Shannon played Astrov. Merritt Weaver 00:10:40.340 --> 00:10:43.059 as Sonya, just top -tier actors drawn to that 00:10:43.059 --> 00:10:45.179 style. I'm just fanning doing Quiet Desperation. 00:10:45.279 --> 00:10:48.100 Yeah, I can picture that. It worked beautifully, 00:10:48.379 --> 00:10:51.519 and Shannon and Weaver both won the Joey Calloway 00:10:51.519 --> 00:10:54.600 Award for their performances in 2012. It really 00:10:54.600 --> 00:10:56.919 proved Baker's approach wasn't just for her original 00:10:56.919 --> 00:10:59.799 material. She could bring that same observational 00:10:59.799 --> 00:11:03.240 intensity to interpreting the classics. Okay, 00:11:03.519 --> 00:11:05.600 so if the Shirley plays established her style, 00:11:05.840 --> 00:11:07.940 the moment it truly broke through, got that major 00:11:07.940 --> 00:11:10.139 national validation, that was definitely the 00:11:10.139 --> 00:11:12.679 flick. This is the play that cemented her as 00:11:12.679 --> 00:11:15.259 a major, major voice. Premiered at Playwrights 00:11:15.259 --> 00:11:17.960 Horizons March 2013. The flick. Right. Set in 00:11:17.960 --> 00:11:19.740 that rundown movie theater. Just three employees, 00:11:19.779 --> 00:11:23.000 right? A projectionist, two cleaners. Yep. And 00:11:23.000 --> 00:11:25.590 they basically just talk. About movies, about 00:11:25.590 --> 00:11:27.649 their lives, about nothing much, all while cleaning 00:11:27.649 --> 00:11:30.789 up popcorn and dealing with this old 35mm projector. 00:11:31.269 --> 00:11:34.590 And famously, it has those really long silences, 00:11:34.690 --> 00:11:37.009 the real -time actions, sweeping, waiting. All 00:11:37.009 --> 00:11:39.909 the Baker hallmarks? Exactly. But the level of 00:11:39.909 --> 00:11:42.850 acclaim it got, especially considering how unconventional 00:11:42.850 --> 00:11:46.250 it is, it was kind of staggering. She won the 00:11:46.250 --> 00:11:48.750 Obie for playwriting in 2013. Okay, that makes 00:11:48.750 --> 00:11:50.669 sense. The Obie's recognized downtown experimental 00:11:50.669 --> 00:11:54.480 work. But then the next year, 2014, she wins 00:11:54.480 --> 00:11:57.539 the Pulitzer Prize for drama. The Pulitzer? For 00:11:57.539 --> 00:12:00.279 the flick? Yeah. That's huge. That's the establishment 00:12:00.279 --> 00:12:03.539 saying this quiet, anti -theatrical style is 00:12:03.539 --> 00:12:06.019 not just valid. It's among the best in American 00:12:06.019 --> 00:12:08.659 drama. Monumental validation. And it kept going. 00:12:08.720 --> 00:12:10.940 It won the Critics Circle Theater Award in London 00:12:10.940 --> 00:12:13.519 for Best New Play in 2016. So it crossed the 00:12:13.519 --> 00:12:16.000 Atlantic, too. It really proved this subtle, 00:12:16.059 --> 00:12:18.059 observational thing could win the biggest prizes, 00:12:18.259 --> 00:12:20.720 reach broad audiences. It changed the landscape. 00:12:21.369 --> 00:12:23.889 Now, you mentioned Sam Gold earlier with Uncle 00:12:23.889 --> 00:12:25.990 Vanya. We really need to underscore that partnership 00:12:25.990 --> 00:12:28.129 here, don't we? Yeah. Because the flick was also 00:12:28.129 --> 00:12:31.049 directed by him. Absolutely. We have to pause 00:12:31.049 --> 00:12:34.769 and give major credit to Sam Gold. Their collaboration, 00:12:35.049 --> 00:12:36.950 starting back with Circle Mirror Transformation 00:12:36.950 --> 00:12:39.909 in 2009, running through Vanya the flick and 00:12:39.909 --> 00:12:42.529 her next play, John. It's incredibly important. 00:12:42.830 --> 00:12:45.409 Because for Baker's writing to land, the direction 00:12:45.409 --> 00:12:47.549 has to be perfectly in sync, right? You need 00:12:47.549 --> 00:12:49.889 someone who understands how to stage stillness, 00:12:50.009 --> 00:12:53.250 how to manage that slow burn tempo without losing 00:12:53.250 --> 00:12:55.769 the audience. Totally. The director has to trust 00:12:55.769 --> 00:12:58.269 the silence, trust the actors, trust the audience. 00:12:58.769 --> 00:13:01.629 Gold clearly speaks Baker's language. He knows 00:13:01.629 --> 00:13:03.769 how to make that quietness resonate. And that 00:13:03.769 --> 00:13:06.250 partnership continued with her next big play, 00:13:06.389 --> 00:13:09.470 John, in 2015. That premiered at the Signature 00:13:09.470 --> 00:13:11.610 Theatre, right? Correct. And that premiere was 00:13:11.610 --> 00:13:13.370 significant in itself. It was the first play 00:13:13.370 --> 00:13:15.490 under the Signature Theatre's Residency 5 program. 00:13:15.690 --> 00:13:18.289 What's that involve? It's a huge deal. It guarantees 00:13:18.289 --> 00:13:20.409 a playwright three world premiere productions 00:13:20.409 --> 00:13:23.889 over five years. So Signature wasn't just saying 00:13:23.889 --> 00:13:25.909 the flick was great. They were saying, we're 00:13:25.909 --> 00:13:27.950 investing long -term in Annie Baker's entire 00:13:27.950 --> 00:13:31.149 way of working. John was the first of those three, 00:13:31.210 --> 00:13:34.309 and The Antipodes followed in 2017. Okay, so 00:13:34.309 --> 00:13:37.730 John. This one moved away from Shirley, Vermont, 00:13:37.909 --> 00:13:40.610 didn't it? Yeah, new setting. A big, maybe slightly 00:13:40.610 --> 00:13:43.110 unsettling, bed and breakfast in Gettysburg, 00:13:43.190 --> 00:13:46.009 Pennsylvania. And it featured amazing actors 00:13:46.009 --> 00:13:49.690 like Lois Smith and Georgia Engel. Georgia Engel, 00:13:49.690 --> 00:13:53.820 wow. But the themes. Still very Baker. Oh, absolutely. 00:13:54.019 --> 00:13:56.419 This is where you see her observational powers 00:13:56.419 --> 00:13:59.559 really crystallize into exploring deep, universal 00:13:59.559 --> 00:14:02.299 themes. The critics zeroed in on it. The New 00:14:02.299 --> 00:14:04.899 York Times called it a haunting and haunted meditation 00:14:04.899 --> 00:14:07.700 on topics she has made so singularly her own. 00:14:07.779 --> 00:14:09.759 Which are? The omnipresence of loneliness in 00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:12.159 human life and the troubled search for love and 00:14:12.159 --> 00:14:14.419 lasting connection. Omnipresence of loneliness. 00:14:14.659 --> 00:14:17.480 That hits hard. And it feels like maybe that's 00:14:17.480 --> 00:14:19.440 why her work connects so deeply, even with the 00:14:19.440 --> 00:14:22.200 slow pace. She lets you witness that quiet isolation, 00:14:22.500 --> 00:14:24.639 those fumbling attempts to connect, things we 00:14:24.639 --> 00:14:26.980 all feel but rarely see portrayed so honestly. 00:14:27.240 --> 00:14:29.580 I think that's exactly right. And that universality 00:14:29.580 --> 00:14:32.259 led to more major acclaim for John. It landed 00:14:32.259 --> 00:14:34.379 on Time magazine's top 10 plays and musicals 00:14:34.379 --> 00:14:37.120 list for 2015. The Hollywood Reporter also ranked 00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:38.679 it as one of the best New York shows that year. 00:14:38.899 --> 00:14:41.840 Okay, strong showing. But then there's this other 00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:43.919 ranking. This one's kind of mind -blowing. Ah, 00:14:44.019 --> 00:14:46.419 you mean the Time Out ranking. Yeah. The play 00:14:46.419 --> 00:14:48.980 goes to the West End, opens at the National Theatre 00:14:48.980 --> 00:14:52.519 in London in 2018, and then anti -propsed at 00:14:52.519 --> 00:14:55.519 Time Out, apparently ranked John as the 40th 00:14:55.519 --> 00:14:59.539 best play ever written. 40? Not top 40 of the 00:14:59.539 --> 00:15:01.480 year or the decade. Ever. That's astonishing. 00:15:01.820 --> 00:15:03.980 For a play written just a few years earlier, 00:15:04.139 --> 00:15:07.320 known for its quiet realism. Putting it out there 00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:10.250 with, like... The historical giants? It's monumental 00:15:10.250 --> 00:15:12.909 praise. What it suggests is that critics saw 00:15:12.909 --> 00:15:15.470 John as addressing something so fundamental about 00:15:15.470 --> 00:15:17.970 the human condition, using such a unique and 00:15:17.970 --> 00:15:20.649 effective method, that it transcended its contemporary 00:15:20.649 --> 00:15:23.610 moment. It's a statement that this theater of 00:15:23.610 --> 00:15:26.450 stillness, of quiet observation, has just as 00:15:26.450 --> 00:15:28.330 much claim to greatness as traditional drama. 00:15:28.570 --> 00:15:30.029 And again, the performances were recognized. 00:15:30.250 --> 00:15:32.769 Georgia Engel won an Obie for her role in John, 00:15:32.830 --> 00:15:35.899 right? She did, a 2016 Obie for performance, 00:15:36.100 --> 00:15:38.159 and the whole production got a special citation 00:15:38.159 --> 00:15:41.220 for collaboration, recognizing Baker, Gold, and 00:15:41.220 --> 00:15:43.840 the design team together. Because creating that 00:15:43.840 --> 00:15:46.720 specific, immersive, slightly unsettling atmosphere, 00:15:47.080 --> 00:15:49.600 that's crucial to her work. It's a total package. 00:15:51.529 --> 00:15:54.190 So moving into more recent years, the 2020s, 00:15:54.190 --> 00:15:56.509 Annie Baker hasn't exactly been resting on her 00:15:56.509 --> 00:15:58.690 laurels. She's continued with stage work, but 00:15:58.690 --> 00:16:00.690 also made this really significant leap into a 00:16:00.690 --> 00:16:03.289 whole new medium. Right. Still writing for the 00:16:03.289 --> 00:16:04.950 stage, though. What's the latest there? Her most 00:16:04.950 --> 00:16:07.049 recent play we have info on is Infinite Life. 00:16:07.190 --> 00:16:09.710 That opened off -Broadway, Atlantic Theatre Company, 00:16:09.929 --> 00:16:13.289 September 2023. And the critics seem to really 00:16:13.289 --> 00:16:16.139 embrace it. descriptions like weird and great 00:16:16.139 --> 00:16:18.220 new play. So still pushing boundaries, still 00:16:18.220 --> 00:16:20.080 surprising people with her approach to structure. 00:16:20.220 --> 00:16:21.879 Weird and great. Yeah. Sounds about right for 00:16:21.879 --> 00:16:24.419 her. But the big news really was the film, wasn't 00:16:24.419 --> 00:16:27.320 it? Janet Planet. Huge news. 2023, her feature 00:16:27.320 --> 00:16:29.840 film directing debut. It's a coming of age story 00:16:29.840 --> 00:16:32.639 produced by A24, which is already a signifier 00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:34.700 of a certain kind of indie sensibility. A24, 00:16:34.940 --> 00:16:37.080 yeah. Yeah. And it premiered at Telluride. Yep, 00:16:37.100 --> 00:16:40.700 the 50th Telluride Film Festival. So, a prestigious 00:16:40.700 --> 00:16:42.960 launch. This is a major shift, obviously, for 00:16:42.960 --> 00:16:45.320 someone so deeply identified with live theater. 00:16:45.580 --> 00:16:47.960 It really is. Moving from that shared space, 00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:50.539 shared time of the theater where the audience 00:16:50.539 --> 00:16:52.919 is kind of captive, physically present for the 00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:56.440 silences, to cinema, which is mediated, framed, 00:16:56.580 --> 00:16:58.720 edited. And she wrote it too, right? Not just 00:16:58.720 --> 00:17:01.000 directed. Wrote and directed. Starring Julia 00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:03.720 Nicholson, Zoe Ziegler, Sofia Canedo. Great cast. 00:17:03.919 --> 00:17:06.579 So the big question everyone had was, Can that 00:17:06.579 --> 00:17:09.819 signature Annie Baker style, the slowness, the 00:17:09.819 --> 00:17:13.539 quiet, the anti -theatrical vibe actually translate 00:17:13.539 --> 00:17:16.319 to film where audiences expect, you know, faster 00:17:16.319 --> 00:17:18.859 cuts, more explicit emotional cues? That was 00:17:18.859 --> 00:17:20.720 the question. And the industry certainly recognized 00:17:20.720 --> 00:17:22.700 the effort and the quality. She got two Independent 00:17:22.700 --> 00:17:24.880 Spirit Award nominations right off the bat, Best 00:17:24.880 --> 00:17:27.539 First Feature and Best First Screenplay. That's 00:17:27.539 --> 00:17:30.539 significant recognition for a debut. OK, so awards 00:17:30.539 --> 00:17:32.640 nominations. What about the critics? How did 00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:34.769 they react to Janet Planet? Well, this is where 00:17:34.769 --> 00:17:36.809 it gets really interesting, because the reception 00:17:36.809 --> 00:17:40.369 was kind of split, but split in a way that perfectly 00:17:40.369 --> 00:17:43.230 reflects the nature of her work. Oh. On the one 00:17:43.230 --> 00:17:45.829 hand, you had reviews like David Rooney's in 00:17:45.829 --> 00:17:48.210 The Hollywood Reporter, totally glowing, called 00:17:48.210 --> 00:17:52.190 it an exquisite debut, an oddball marvel of comparable 00:17:52.190 --> 00:17:55.730 beauty. That suggests, yes, the precision, the 00:17:55.730 --> 00:17:58.869 quiet depth, the long takes, it worked beautifully 00:17:58.869 --> 00:18:01.289 for him. Okay, strong positive. But then you 00:18:01.289 --> 00:18:03.390 had reviews like Thomas Lafley's for The Wrap. 00:18:04.039 --> 00:18:07.160 more mixed, called it textured yet wearisome, 00:18:07.180 --> 00:18:09.579 and specifically said it keeps the viewer at 00:18:09.579 --> 00:18:14.829 arm's length. Wearisome? Ouch. But also... Kind 00:18:14.829 --> 00:18:17.630 of understandable, maybe? Exactly. That criticism, 00:18:17.710 --> 00:18:19.730 wearisome, points directly back to what critics 00:18:19.730 --> 00:18:21.970 have always said about her plays. They're demanding. 00:18:22.049 --> 00:18:24.269 They make you work hard. You go into her film 00:18:24.269 --> 00:18:26.670 expecting a typical movie pace, her commitment 00:18:26.670 --> 00:18:29.250 to real -time observation, her refusal to spell 00:18:29.250 --> 00:18:31.829 things out, it could feel wearisome or distant 00:18:31.829 --> 00:18:33.970 on screen. It's like the audience contract is 00:18:33.970 --> 00:18:36.349 different. In a theater, you've committed, you 00:18:36.349 --> 00:18:38.029 sit in the dark, you wait through the silence. 00:18:38.609 --> 00:18:41.410 Watching a film, especially at home, the temptation 00:18:41.410 --> 00:18:44.630 to speed up, to look away, is... much higher 00:18:44.630 --> 00:18:47.849 and she's refusing to cater to that. She's absolutely 00:18:47.849 --> 00:18:51.089 refusing. She's forcing the film viewer to meet 00:18:51.089 --> 00:18:53.329 her halfway, just like she does with the theater 00:18:53.329 --> 00:18:55.710 audience, but in a medium that's generally much 00:18:55.710 --> 00:18:59.009 less patient. It really shows how deeply committed 00:18:59.009 --> 00:19:01.849 she is to her artistic vision, regardless of 00:19:01.849 --> 00:19:03.890 the format. That's the challenge she faces now, 00:19:03.990 --> 00:19:06.779 isn't it? How to keep that slow, honest integrity 00:19:06.779 --> 00:19:10.059 in film without alienating an audience conditioned 00:19:10.059 --> 00:19:12.299 for speed. It'll be fascinating to see how she 00:19:12.299 --> 00:19:14.359 navigates that. And just a quick side note before 00:19:14.359 --> 00:19:16.079 we move on. She actually acted a little bit, 00:19:16.099 --> 00:19:18.579 too. Right. Way back. Oh, yeah. A small thing. 00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:21.099 Back in 2014, she played a character named Elise 00:19:21.099 --> 00:19:24.380 in Noah Baumbach's film While We're Young. Interesting. 00:19:24.799 --> 00:19:27.180 Another little foray into being in the performance 00:19:27.180 --> 00:19:30.299 world. You know. Looking back at all the awards 00:19:30.299 --> 00:19:32.720 and fellowships she's received, it really drives 00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:36.099 home how much the establishment, the big arts 00:19:36.099 --> 00:19:39.359 institutions, have actively supported her very 00:19:39.359 --> 00:19:41.599 specific, non -traditional approach. It's not 00:19:41.599 --> 00:19:44.700 just praise. It's tangible support. Right. And 00:19:44.700 --> 00:19:46.839 the biggest one has to be the MacArthur Fellowship, 00:19:46.839 --> 00:19:49.640 the Genius Grant in 2017. Absolutely. That's 00:19:49.640 --> 00:19:52.740 $625 ,000 over five years, no strings attached. 00:19:53.140 --> 00:19:56.019 That kind of funding is crucial. It literally 00:19:56.019 --> 00:19:59.069 buys an artist the freedom to... take risks to 00:19:59.069 --> 00:20:01.410 pursue work that isn't necessarily commercial 00:20:01.410 --> 00:20:04.289 to stick to their guns. It's innovation funding 00:20:04.289 --> 00:20:06.349 for the arts. And they came after other major 00:20:06.349 --> 00:20:08.690 financial awards, too, like the Guggenheim Fellowship 00:20:08.690 --> 00:20:11.390 in 2014. And the Steinberg Playwright Award in 00:20:11.390 --> 00:20:14.029 2013, which included a $50 ,000 prize. It's a 00:20:14.029 --> 00:20:16.670 clear pattern. The system recognizing the value 00:20:16.670 --> 00:20:19.349 in her anti -theatrical method and wanting her 00:20:19.349 --> 00:20:20.910 to keep doing it. It wasn't just money either, 00:20:21.029 --> 00:20:22.630 right? Lots of residencies, development labs. 00:20:22.750 --> 00:20:25.269 Oh, yes. Crucial for honing her craft. She was 00:20:25.269 --> 00:20:27.450 at the Sundance Institute Theater Lab. twice, 00:20:27.670 --> 00:20:30.609 2008 and 2014, and that second time she actually 00:20:30.609 --> 00:20:32.490 directed her own play there, The Last of the 00:20:32.490 --> 00:20:34.750 Little Hours. What was that one about? It follows 00:20:34.750 --> 00:20:37.309 the daily routines of Benedictine monks. Again, 00:20:37.369 --> 00:20:40.150 you see that focus on quiet discipline, the observation 00:20:40.150 --> 00:20:43.150 of the mundane, the ritualistic. Makes sense. 00:20:43.369 --> 00:20:46.940 Monks and silent movie theater workers. Maybe 00:20:46.940 --> 00:20:49.500 not so different in her eyes. Could be. She also 00:20:49.500 --> 00:20:52.460 had multiple McDowell Colony fellowships, and 00:20:52.460 --> 00:20:54.779 she was a fellow at the New York Public Library's 00:20:54.779 --> 00:20:58.059 Cullman Center. So recognition across the board, 00:20:58.180 --> 00:21:00.900 from theater development to broader humanities 00:21:00.900 --> 00:21:04.480 institutions, it shows her work is seen as having 00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:07.279 real intellectual weight. And beyond creating 00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:09.900 her own work, she's clearly very invested in 00:21:09.900 --> 00:21:11.980 teaching and shaping the next wave of writers. 00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:14.599 Hugely invested. Her teaching record is expensive. 00:21:14.779 --> 00:21:17.380 She teaches playwriting at NYU, Barnard College, 00:21:17.660 --> 00:21:20.140 the MFA programs at Stony Brook, Southampton 00:21:20.140 --> 00:21:22.759 and Hunter College. Wow. Quite a list. And she's 00:21:22.759 --> 00:21:24.480 currently an associate professor of practice 00:21:24.480 --> 00:21:26.960 at the University of Texas at Austin in their 00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:30.200 MFA playwriting directing program. So she's not 00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:32.099 just influential through her play. She's actively 00:21:32.099 --> 00:21:34.880 involved in training writers, passing on that 00:21:34.880 --> 00:21:37.099 rigorous approach to making theater that feels 00:21:37.099 --> 00:21:40.759 incredibly real, helping to codify hypernaturalism, 00:21:40.779 --> 00:21:43.059 maybe. Finally, we should probably touch on her 00:21:43.059 --> 00:21:45.779 public engagement as well. Based on the sources, 00:21:46.039 --> 00:21:48.980 it seems like that commitment she has artistically 00:21:48.980 --> 00:21:53.640 to witnessing things honestly, exploring connection, 00:21:53.940 --> 00:21:56.480 it sometimes extends into public advocacy. It 00:21:56.480 --> 00:21:58.339 does appear that way. And we'll just report these 00:21:58.339 --> 00:22:00.900 instances factually as part of the overall portrait 00:22:00.900 --> 00:22:03.200 without taking any stance ourselves. Right. Just 00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:06.329 the facts from the sources. So in July 2017, 00:22:06.789 --> 00:22:09.630 she was one of about 60 artists who signed an 00:22:09.630 --> 00:22:11.730 open letter. It was organized by a group called 00:22:11.730 --> 00:22:15.390 Adala NY, and it asked Lincoln Center to cancel 00:22:15.390 --> 00:22:17.650 performances of a play that was sponsored by 00:22:17.650 --> 00:22:19.809 the Israeli government. Okay. And more recently? 00:22:19.809 --> 00:22:22.690 More recently, in 2023, she was among a group 00:22:22.690 --> 00:22:24.849 of Jewish American writers who signed another 00:22:24.849 --> 00:22:27.210 open letter, this one addressed to President 00:22:27.210 --> 00:22:30.859 Biden, asking for a ceasefire. Got it. So instances 00:22:30.859 --> 00:22:33.119 where she's joined with others to voice concerns 00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:36.400 on larger political or human rights issues. It 00:22:36.400 --> 00:22:38.880 does seem consistent in a way with a playwright 00:22:38.880 --> 00:22:41.579 whose work is so focused on observing human situations, 00:22:41.720 --> 00:22:44.440 whether micro level loneliness or macro level 00:22:44.440 --> 00:22:47.680 conflict. So if we try to wrap this up, synthesized 00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:50.259 her career so far, Annie Baker's really unique 00:22:50.259 --> 00:22:52.779 contribution, it seems, isn't just that she wrote 00:22:52.779 --> 00:22:54.660 brilliant plays. It's that she fundamentally 00:22:54.660 --> 00:22:56.980 changed the conversation about what theater. 00:22:57.500 --> 00:23:01.180 is or can be she insisted on using raw almost 00:23:01.180 --> 00:23:04.380 overheard dialogue this intense naturalism yeah 00:23:04.380 --> 00:23:06.299 that demands patience from the audience it does 00:23:06.299 --> 00:23:09.839 but it rewards that patience with this incredibly 00:23:09.839 --> 00:23:14.079 deep resonance by slowing down time by focusing 00:23:14.079 --> 00:23:16.640 on what critics call that omnipresence of loneliness 00:23:16.640 --> 00:23:19.839 she just holds up this incredibly clear mirror 00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:22.299 to our own inner lives our own quiet moments 00:23:22.299 --> 00:23:25.539 our own clumsy attempts at connection she proves 00:23:25.539 --> 00:23:27.549 that massive drama doesn't always need shouting 00:23:27.549 --> 00:23:30.190 or spectacle. It can exist in the pauses, in 00:23:30.190 --> 00:23:32.769 the silences between the words. It's about authentic 00:23:32.769 --> 00:23:36.390 human feeling. Exactly. Great theater as sincere 00:23:36.390 --> 00:23:38.789 human connection, not just entertainment. Which 00:23:38.789 --> 00:23:40.430 leads us to a final thought, maybe a question 00:23:40.430 --> 00:23:43.190 for you, a listener to chew on. Given that she 00:23:43.190 --> 00:23:45.069 has had this critical success, even if it was 00:23:45.069 --> 00:23:47.829 mixed, translating that very distinctive, anti 00:23:47.829 --> 00:23:50.529 -theatrical stage voice into her film debut, 00:23:50.750 --> 00:23:53.109 Janet Planet. How is this dual identity going 00:23:53.109 --> 00:23:55.670 to play out? She's a Pulitzer -winning playwright 00:23:55.670 --> 00:23:58.569 who makes audiences sent through minutes of silence, 00:23:58.789 --> 00:24:01.069 and she's now an acclaimed film director working 00:24:01.069 --> 00:24:03.750 in a medium that usually hates silence and loves 00:24:03.750 --> 00:24:06.990 speed. How will she keep challenging the boundaries 00:24:06.990 --> 00:24:10.289 of engaging drama across both stage and screen? 00:24:10.809 --> 00:24:13.309 That's the big question, isn't it? Which medium 00:24:13.309 --> 00:24:15.609 is ultimately the better fit for her particular 00:24:15.609 --> 00:24:19.349 brand of slow, quiet, observational genius? Or 00:24:19.349 --> 00:24:21.450 can she make both work on her own terms? Something 00:24:21.450 --> 00:24:23.210 to definitely keep an eye on. It'll be fascinating 00:24:23.210 --> 00:24:24.150 to see what she does next.