WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.100 Welcome back to the Deep Dive, where we tear 00:00:02.100 --> 00:00:04.919 through a stack of sources and pull out the essential 00:00:04.919 --> 00:00:08.660 knowledge nuggets customized just for you. Today, 00:00:08.839 --> 00:00:12.140 we're tackling a figure who has built this really 00:00:12.140 --> 00:00:16.280 extraordinary career, sort of mastering a tightrope 00:00:16.280 --> 00:00:19.760 walk. Definitely. Between being an esteemed journalist, 00:00:19.899 --> 00:00:23.000 a hugely influential activist. And arguably maybe 00:00:23.000 --> 00:00:25.179 the most abrasive cultural provocateur of his 00:00:25.179 --> 00:00:27.199 generation. Yeah, that feels about right. We 00:00:27.199 --> 00:00:29.239 are deep diving into the life and work of Dan 00:00:29.239 --> 00:00:31.399 Savage. It's quite a career to unpack. It's truly 00:00:31.399 --> 00:00:34.799 sprawling. Yeah. Multifaceted. Born in 1964, 00:00:35.299 --> 00:00:38.119 Savage basically channeled his sex advice column, 00:00:38.280 --> 00:00:41.079 Savage Love, into this massive global platform. 00:00:41.399 --> 00:00:44.259 Books, TV, social campaigns. Right. And our mission 00:00:44.259 --> 00:00:46.119 today really is to understand the mechanics of 00:00:46.119 --> 00:00:48.679 that. How did he leverage talking frankly about 00:00:48.679 --> 00:00:51.740 sex and relationships into, well, a tool? A tool 00:00:51.740 --> 00:00:55.299 for progressive politics, for LGBTQ rights advocacy. 00:00:55.539 --> 00:00:57.240 And just, you know, relentless public debate, 00:00:57.399 --> 00:00:59.759 often very controversial debate. And when you 00:00:59.759 --> 00:01:01.520 look at the evidence, I mean, the success of 00:01:01.520 --> 00:01:04.040 that platform is just undeniable. Before we even 00:01:04.040 --> 00:01:05.900 get into the controversies or the whole media 00:01:05.900 --> 00:01:10.000 empire thing, let's try and nail down his core 00:01:10.000 --> 00:01:12.340 identity, his major achievements. Yeah, the writing 00:01:12.340 --> 00:01:14.950 and punditry are vital, sure. But you're right. 00:01:15.010 --> 00:01:16.950 The activism really defines him in many ways. 00:01:17.150 --> 00:01:19.069 So where do we start with that? What's the cornerstone? 00:01:19.250 --> 00:01:21.689 I think that has to be the starting point. The 00:01:21.689 --> 00:01:24.609 single most visible, most defining achievement 00:01:24.609 --> 00:01:28.189 of his activism is co -founding the It Gets Better 00:01:28.189 --> 00:01:30.950 project. Right. In 2010 with his husband, Terry 00:01:30.950 --> 00:01:34.689 Miller. Exactly. And this was a direct. digital 00:01:34.689 --> 00:01:37.709 intervention aimed squarely at preventing suicide 00:01:37.709 --> 00:01:41.150 among LGBTQ youth who were facing bullying. And 00:01:41.150 --> 00:01:43.090 that project, it really shifted the conversation, 00:01:43.310 --> 00:01:46.349 didn't it? Fundamentally, yeah. How society addresses 00:01:46.349 --> 00:01:50.650 queer youth, isolation, mental health. It was 00:01:50.650 --> 00:01:53.290 huge. An incredible achievement. Digital advocacy 00:01:53.290 --> 00:01:56.170 at its most impactful, really. And then like 00:01:56.170 --> 00:01:57.829 on the complete opposite end of the spectrum, 00:01:57.930 --> 00:01:59.549 but still talking cultural impact. You have to 00:01:59.549 --> 00:02:02.109 mention the language. Yes. His influence on just 00:02:02.109 --> 00:02:04.620 everyday sexual language. Yeah. The sources are 00:02:04.620 --> 00:02:07.200 clear. Savage and his readership, they officially 00:02:07.200 --> 00:02:12.020 coined the neologism pegging back in 2001. Defining 00:02:12.020 --> 00:02:15.400 a woman anally penetrating a man with his strap 00:02:15.400 --> 00:02:18.729 on dildo. Correct. And that word, it didn't just 00:02:18.729 --> 00:02:20.610 stay niche, did it? It wasn't just in the alt 00:02:20.610 --> 00:02:23.909 weeklies. No, not at all. It pretty quickly infiltrated 00:02:23.909 --> 00:02:27.110 mainstream sexual vocabulary. You hear it everywhere 00:02:27.110 --> 00:02:30.110 now. It's amazing. It is. And that little linguistic 00:02:30.110 --> 00:02:32.930 act, it kind of perfectly encapsulates his specific 00:02:32.930 --> 00:02:35.789 genius, I think. How so? Well, he treats sex 00:02:35.789 --> 00:02:38.210 advice seriously, right? Yeah. But he does it 00:02:38.210 --> 00:02:41.750 in a way that generates real cultural, even linguistic 00:02:41.750 --> 00:02:45.319 gravity. He turns these private. intimate things 00:02:45.319 --> 00:02:48.060 into public political discussion often with really 00:02:48.060 --> 00:02:50.719 surprising far -reaching results okay so let's 00:02:50.719 --> 00:02:52.960 unpack the origins then yeah because it's kind 00:02:52.960 --> 00:02:54.860 of hard to imagine the guy behind savage love 00:02:54.860 --> 00:02:57.139 starting out yeah well where he did yeah it's 00:02:57.139 --> 00:02:59.719 quite a journey how does a kid from chicago who 00:02:59.719 --> 00:03:02.400 is seriously considering the priesthood end up 00:03:02.400 --> 00:03:04.800 creating a sex advice empire right that brings 00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:07.759 us to section one the unexpected path to advice 00:03:07.759 --> 00:03:10.719 columnist so chicago native Savage. Yeah, Daniel 00:03:10.719 --> 00:03:14.139 Keenan Savage. Born in Chicago, October 7, 1964. 00:03:14.979 --> 00:03:18.580 And raised strictly Roman Catholic. Ah, okay. 00:03:18.680 --> 00:03:20.800 That upbringing, that's got to be a foundational 00:03:20.800 --> 00:03:23.379 layer, right? Even though he later moved away 00:03:23.379 --> 00:03:25.620 from it. Absolutely. He later identified more 00:03:25.620 --> 00:03:28.860 as an atheist, or maybe his term, a wishy -washy 00:03:28.860 --> 00:03:30.979 agnostic. But he still called himself culturally 00:03:30.979 --> 00:03:33.300 Catholic. You can almost feel that tension in 00:03:33.300 --> 00:03:35.639 his writing sometimes. You really can. That exploration 00:03:35.639 --> 00:03:39.789 of sin, morality, challenging dogma. It's all 00:03:39.789 --> 00:03:42.469 there. Baked in from the start. And his high 00:03:42.469 --> 00:03:44.969 school choice kind of reinforces this early religious 00:03:44.969 --> 00:03:48.069 path. He attended Quigley Preparatory Seminary 00:03:48.069 --> 00:03:50.889 North. Which was specifically for? For boys considering 00:03:50.889 --> 00:03:54.509 the priesthood. So a deep immersion in that formal 00:03:54.509 --> 00:03:57.229 religious structure, the rhetoric. It surely 00:03:57.229 --> 00:04:00.689 influenced his later style. His very formal rhetorical 00:04:00.689 --> 00:04:03.090 style sometimes. Definitely. But clearly the 00:04:03.090 --> 00:04:05.610 path shifted. Towards performance. It did. Big 00:04:05.610 --> 00:04:07.930 shift. He got a Bachelor of Fine Arts and acting 00:04:07.930 --> 00:04:10.370 degree from the University of Illinois at Urbana 00:04:10.370 --> 00:04:12.349 -Champaign. Okay, the acting background. That 00:04:12.349 --> 00:04:14.849 feels critical. It's hugely important. He wasn't 00:04:14.849 --> 00:04:17.430 just a writer. He was a performer. Yeah. He understood 00:04:17.430 --> 00:04:21.930 staging, rhetoric, shock value, how to grab public 00:04:21.930 --> 00:04:24.069 attention. You see it in his media appearances. 00:04:24.350 --> 00:04:27.089 Totally. And remember, he later worked as a theater 00:04:27.089 --> 00:04:30.089 director sometimes. Use the name Keenan Hollihan. 00:04:30.620 --> 00:04:33.319 His whole public persona has this theatrical, 00:04:33.519 --> 00:04:36.720 very intentional quality. Right. It's the performance 00:04:36.720 --> 00:04:39.800 degree that maybe makes him a media pundit, not 00:04:39.800 --> 00:04:43.180 just a journalist. Good point. So that performative 00:04:43.180 --> 00:04:45.139 flair, it eventually lands him in the right place, 00:04:45.180 --> 00:04:49.160 right time, early 90s. Where was he when Savage 00:04:49.160 --> 00:04:52.399 Love started bubbling up around 1991? He was 00:04:52.399 --> 00:04:55.819 in Madison, Wisconsin. working as the night manager 00:04:55.819 --> 00:04:58.220 at a video store. A video store? What kind? Called 00:04:58.220 --> 00:05:01.160 Four Star Fiction and Video, specialized in independent 00:05:01.160 --> 00:05:03.980 films. And crucially, this is where he befriended 00:05:03.980 --> 00:05:06.800 Tim Keck. Ah, Tim Keck of the Onion fame. One 00:05:06.800 --> 00:05:08.600 of the original co -founders, yeah. And then 00:05:08.600 --> 00:05:11.500 Keck makes the move, Seattle. Right, Keck moved 00:05:11.500 --> 00:05:13.819 to Seattle to start a new alternative weekly, 00:05:14.040 --> 00:05:16.160 The Stranger, and Savage gave him some advice. 00:05:16.420 --> 00:05:18.180 What was the advice? Savage told him the paper 00:05:18.180 --> 00:05:20.560 had to have an advice column. Said something 00:05:20.560 --> 00:05:23.160 like, everybody claims to hate him, but everybody 00:05:23.160 --> 00:05:27.000 seems to read him. Probably true. So Savage pitched 00:05:27.000 --> 00:05:29.899 himself, wrote a sample column. Keck was apparently 00:05:29.899 --> 00:05:31.980 blown away. Offered him the job. Offered him 00:05:31.980 --> 00:05:34.819 the job. Savage moved to Seattle, and that decision, 00:05:35.019 --> 00:05:37.720 as Savage himself said, forever altered his life 00:05:37.720 --> 00:05:41.180 path. A total pivot. So the column wasn't just 00:05:41.180 --> 00:05:45.279 like... A gig. He was conceived as cultural commentary 00:05:45.279 --> 00:05:48.139 from day one. Absolutely. What was the core idea, 00:05:48.279 --> 00:05:50.500 the philosophy behind it? It was provocative 00:05:50.500 --> 00:05:52.920 right out of the gate. Savage's stated intention 00:05:52.920 --> 00:05:57.060 was basically to provide mocking advice to heterosexuals. 00:05:57.060 --> 00:05:59.680 Mocking them? Why? He felt that the established, 00:05:59.699 --> 00:06:02.459 you know, street advice columnists were often 00:06:02.459 --> 00:06:05.040 judgmental or just clueless when they tried to 00:06:05.040 --> 00:06:07.439 answer letters from gay people. Ah, so he flipped 00:06:07.439 --> 00:06:10.240 the script. Exactly. Took a deliberately confrontational 00:06:10.240 --> 00:06:13.449 stance. to turn the tables on what he saw as 00:06:13.449 --> 00:06:16.350 the clueless cultural norm. And this leads directly 00:06:16.350 --> 00:06:20.269 to one of his most, let's say, infamous rhetorical 00:06:20.269 --> 00:06:22.529 moves, right in the formatting of the column 00:06:22.529 --> 00:06:25.509 itself, the salutation. Oh, yeah. His initial 00:06:25.509 --> 00:06:28.069 idea, which the editor shot down, was to call 00:06:28.069 --> 00:06:30.870 the whole column, hey, faggot. Oh. He wanted 00:06:30.870 --> 00:06:32.810 to reclaim the hate word. That was the idea. 00:06:33.310 --> 00:06:37.069 Editor said no to the title. But. For several 00:06:37.069 --> 00:06:39.889 years, he successfully used, hey, faggot, as 00:06:39.889 --> 00:06:42.810 the salutation at the start of every single printed 00:06:42.810 --> 00:06:45.870 letter. That is astonishing. For a newspaper 00:06:45.870 --> 00:06:48.990 column, that level of provocation. Right. He 00:06:48.990 --> 00:06:51.709 used that framing until 1999. That's nearly a 00:06:51.709 --> 00:06:54.209 decade. Why does he stop? He claimed he retired 00:06:54.209 --> 00:06:56.529 it only when he felt the reclamation had been 00:06:56.529 --> 00:06:58.769 successful, or maybe just when the shock value 00:06:58.769 --> 00:07:00.709 wasn't as useful anymore. What does that tell 00:07:00.709 --> 00:07:03.699 you, though? about his early strategy. It tells 00:07:03.699 --> 00:07:06.519 you Savage understood very early on that progressive 00:07:06.519 --> 00:07:09.139 social change could be driven by really aggressive, 00:07:09.319 --> 00:07:11.920 attention -grabbing confrontation. His column 00:07:11.920 --> 00:07:13.819 was engineered for that. Totally. Engineered 00:07:13.819 --> 00:07:16.079 as a vehicle for cultural critique, not just 00:07:16.079 --> 00:07:19.259 relationship help. Designed to force discomfort, 00:07:19.579 --> 00:07:22.699 make people notice. Well, that framing certainly 00:07:22.699 --> 00:07:25.959 worked to build an audience, which takes us right 00:07:25.959 --> 00:07:28.959 into section two, building the media platform. 00:07:29.819 --> 00:07:33.180 Once Savage Love found that defiant voice, it 00:07:33.180 --> 00:07:35.579 didn't stay local in Seattle for long. No, it 00:07:35.579 --> 00:07:37.220 blew up pretty quickly. It became internationally 00:07:37.220 --> 00:07:40.319 syndicated, popping up in alt weeklies all over 00:07:40.319 --> 00:07:43.319 the U .S., Canada, eventually further afield. 00:07:43.420 --> 00:07:45.779 But he wasn't just mailing it in from afar, right? 00:07:46.220 --> 00:07:48.680 He was involved with The Stranger. Deeply involved. 00:07:48.800 --> 00:07:50.920 He eventually became editor -in -chief and then 00:07:50.920 --> 00:07:53.259 editorial director there. Which gave him significant 00:07:53.259 --> 00:07:56.199 local political influence in Seattle. Huge clout, 00:07:56.220 --> 00:07:58.620 yeah. And while he's primarily known as an LGBTQ 00:07:58.620 --> 00:08:02.290 advocate, he was smart. He broadened his focus 00:08:02.290 --> 00:08:04.670 to what he called straight rights issues. Yeah, 00:08:04.730 --> 00:08:07.129 arguing that the sort of political war on sex 00:08:07.129 --> 00:08:09.689 was universal. How did he frame that? He basically 00:08:09.689 --> 00:08:12.990 made the case that the right -wingers and the 00:08:12.990 --> 00:08:15.649 fundies and the sexphobes, as he put it, weren't 00:08:15.649 --> 00:08:17.250 just targeting the queer community. They were 00:08:17.250 --> 00:08:20.220 coming for your asses, too. Exactly. His words. 00:08:20.279 --> 00:08:23.160 He focused on conservative opposition to things 00:08:23.160 --> 00:08:26.259 like the HPV vaccine, the morning after pill, 00:08:26.379 --> 00:08:29.040 stuff that affects everyone. So by fighting for 00:08:29.040 --> 00:08:31.800 access to mainstream sexual health stuff. He 00:08:31.800 --> 00:08:34.639 positioned sex positivity as a necessary defense 00:08:34.639 --> 00:08:37.860 for everyone against, you know, prudish government 00:08:37.860 --> 00:08:40.500 control over people's bodies and lives. It's 00:08:40.500 --> 00:08:42.980 actually a really brilliant way to broaden the 00:08:42.980 --> 00:08:45.779 political base for sexual freedom. Makes it universal. 00:08:46.350 --> 00:08:49.110 Totally. And that philosophy, that sex is universal, 00:08:49.389 --> 00:08:52.590 it translated perfectly into audio with the Savage 00:08:52.590 --> 00:08:55.490 Lovecast. Ah, yes, the podcast. Let's do a real 00:08:55.490 --> 00:08:57.490 deep dive here. How does the Lovecast actually 00:08:57.490 --> 00:09:00.450 work? So it's a weekly audio podcast, basically 00:09:00.450 --> 00:09:02.730 an extension of the column. But what makes it 00:09:02.730 --> 00:09:05.250 unique is how he gets the questions. How's that? 00:09:05.669 --> 00:09:07.950 Callers leave anonymous questions on a dedicated 00:09:07.950 --> 00:09:10.309 voice recorder, like an old school answering 00:09:10.309 --> 00:09:12.629 machine, essentially. OK. And then he answers 00:09:12.629 --> 00:09:14.769 them on the show. Right. And unlike typical radio 00:09:14.769 --> 00:09:16.620 call -in shows, he... he often actually returns 00:09:16.620 --> 00:09:19.659 the calls. So the live recorded conversation 00:09:19.659 --> 00:09:21.980 becomes part of the show itself. Oh, interesting. 00:09:22.500 --> 00:09:25.000 That must create a different kind of feel, more 00:09:25.000 --> 00:09:27.440 immediate. It really does. It creates this sense 00:09:27.440 --> 00:09:30.659 of intimacy, authenticity, and the structure 00:09:30.659 --> 00:09:33.519 is dynamic, you know? It's funny, it's serious. 00:09:33.840 --> 00:09:36.399 But he's careful with the advice, right? Especially 00:09:36.399 --> 00:09:39.000 medical stuff. Yeah, that's crucial. He's very 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:41.879 responsible about expertise. For questions that 00:09:41.879 --> 00:09:44.879 are complex or medical, he often consults doctors, 00:09:45.019 --> 00:09:48.179 sex therapists, relationship experts, sometimes 00:09:48.179 --> 00:09:50.360 calls them live on the show. And he'll say it's 00:09:50.360 --> 00:09:53.600 above my pay grade. Explicitly, yeah. He's the 00:09:53.600 --> 00:09:55.820 funny, frank guide who knows exactly when to 00:09:55.820 --> 00:09:57.600 turn in the science or the therapy professional. 00:09:58.019 --> 00:10:00.840 The combination must be key to its success. I 00:10:00.840 --> 00:10:04.299 think so. That blend of, like, frank comedy and 00:10:04.299 --> 00:10:06.899 responsible fact -checking. It's why the Lovecast 00:10:06.899 --> 00:10:09.200 is consistently recognized. It's huge, right? 00:10:09.789 --> 00:10:12.090 Top of the iTunes charts in health. Routinely. 00:10:12.289 --> 00:10:14.509 Yeah. And often in the top 20 podcasts overall. 00:10:14.750 --> 00:10:17.110 Got nods from the AV Club, The Atlantic. It's 00:10:17.110 --> 00:10:19.610 a massive media success. Proving that whole alt 00:10:19.610 --> 00:10:22.070 -weekly vibe could really thrive in the digital 00:10:22.070 --> 00:10:24.970 age. Definitely. And beyond the core column in 00:10:24.970 --> 00:10:27.529 the podcast, he became a pretty central figure 00:10:27.529 --> 00:10:30.190 in broader media too. He certainly did. He had 00:10:30.190 --> 00:10:32.309 an early call -in show, Savage Love Live, way 00:10:32.309 --> 00:10:35.870 back 94 to 97. And an online column for ABC News. 00:10:36.090 --> 00:10:40.149 Yeah. Dear Dan, 98 -2000. He became a familiar 00:10:40.149 --> 00:10:42.720 voice on public radio, too. frequent contributor 00:10:42.720 --> 00:10:45.940 to This American Life. And politically on TV. 00:10:46.200 --> 00:10:49.120 He was a real -time, real reporter on HBO's Real 00:10:49.120 --> 00:10:51.399 Time with Bill Maher for a while. Always in the 00:10:51.399 --> 00:10:53.399 mix. And we can't forget those acting roots. 00:10:53.519 --> 00:10:55.279 You mentioned the theater work he did under the 00:10:55.279 --> 00:10:57.240 name Kenan Hollihan. Right, that acting background 00:10:57.240 --> 00:11:00.299 wasn't just history. It led him to found Seattle's 00:11:00.299 --> 00:11:03.139 Greek Active Theater. What was their thing? Known 00:11:03.139 --> 00:11:05.580 for taking classic works and giving them these 00:11:05.580 --> 00:11:09.059 queer interpretations. Staging a tragicomic Macbeth, 00:11:09.080 --> 00:11:11.840 for instance. playing with gender roles. It's 00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:14.200 that kind of theatrical impulse reinterpreting 00:11:14.200 --> 00:11:16.919 classics that you see in his cultural critiques 00:11:16.919 --> 00:11:19.519 later. Totally connects. Although, as our sources 00:11:19.519 --> 00:11:22.399 note, his own attempt at playwriting, Letters 00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:24.919 from the Earth in 2003. Oh yeah, what happened 00:11:24.919 --> 00:11:27.980 there? It got an absolutely scathing review from 00:11:27.980 --> 00:11:30.679 his own paper at The Stranger. Ouch, that's got 00:11:30.679 --> 00:11:34.720 a sting. Famously brutal, but also kind of self 00:11:34.720 --> 00:11:37.179 -aware for the paper, it highlighted that alt 00:11:37.179 --> 00:11:40.000 -weakly philosophy. Critique has to be ruthless, 00:11:40.220 --> 00:11:43.179 applied equally, even to the boss. Fair enough. 00:11:43.320 --> 00:11:45.419 Okay, let's shift to his television work. He 00:11:45.419 --> 00:11:48.879 had that MTV series, Savage U. But the really 00:11:48.879 --> 00:11:51.759 significant TV project was The Real O 'Neils 00:11:51.759 --> 00:11:53.480 on ABC, right? Yeah, that was a bigger deal. 00:11:53.580 --> 00:11:55.419 Savage was an executive producer on that, ran 00:11:55.419 --> 00:11:57.840 for two seasons on network TV. And it was based 00:11:57.840 --> 00:12:00.860 on his idea. Based on his concept, yeah. About 00:12:00.860 --> 00:12:04.200 this seemingly perfect, tight -knit, Irish -American 00:12:04.200 --> 00:12:07.259 Catholic family in Chicago. Whose secrets all 00:12:07.259 --> 00:12:10.100 come tumbling out. Exactly. Triggered when the 00:12:10.100 --> 00:12:12.759 middle child comes out as gay. This feels like 00:12:12.759 --> 00:12:15.240 his core political work smuggled onto mainstream 00:12:15.240 --> 00:12:19.259 TV. Like a Trojan horse. It really kind of is. 00:12:19.460 --> 00:12:22.580 The show reveals, okay, the middle kid's gay. 00:12:23.230 --> 00:12:25.389 The oldest daughter is anorexic. The youngest 00:12:25.389 --> 00:12:28.490 is maybe an atheist running some scam. And the 00:12:28.490 --> 00:12:30.950 parents want a divorce but are hiding it. Wow. 00:12:31.090 --> 00:12:33.809 All the secrets. It takes all that deeply personal 00:12:33.809 --> 00:12:36.269 pain and complexity, especially for queer youth 00:12:36.269 --> 00:12:38.870 in strict religious homes, and puts it right 00:12:38.870 --> 00:12:41.970 into a primetime network comedy. That's a deliberate 00:12:41.970 --> 00:12:45.309 act of normalization using major media exposure. 00:12:45.570 --> 00:12:48.629 Absolutely. That move from private pain to public 00:12:48.629 --> 00:12:51.269 platform, that's the perfect bridge to Section 00:12:51.269 --> 00:12:54.879 3. The blending of private life and public activism. 00:12:55.840 --> 00:12:58.240 Savage's personal life, it seems, has never really 00:12:58.240 --> 00:13:00.419 been separate from his political mission. No, 00:13:00.519 --> 00:13:02.519 they're completely intertwined. His own family 00:13:02.519 --> 00:13:04.919 life is totally central to his advocacy work. 00:13:05.240 --> 00:13:08.159 So he and Terry Miller, his husband, they married 00:13:08.159 --> 00:13:11.149 early, right? Before it was widely legal. They 00:13:11.149 --> 00:13:13.370 did. They first married in Vancouver, Canada 00:13:13.370 --> 00:13:16.629 back in 2005, long before same -sex marriage 00:13:16.629 --> 00:13:19.210 was recognized across most of the U .S. Just 00:13:19.210 --> 00:13:21.110 going to Canada to get married back then was 00:13:21.110 --> 00:13:23.549 a political act in itself. It absolutely was 00:13:23.549 --> 00:13:26.409 a form of protest, a statement. And then when 00:13:26.409 --> 00:13:28.690 Washington state finally legalized same -sex 00:13:28.690 --> 00:13:30.330 marriage, they made sure their commitment was 00:13:30.330 --> 00:13:32.830 highly visible. When it became legal in Washington 00:13:32.830 --> 00:13:35.950 in 2012, they were among the very first couples 00:13:35.950 --> 00:13:38.029 to get state marriage licenses. They got married 00:13:38.029 --> 00:13:40.350 publicly. Yeah, at Seattle City Hall, December 00:13:40.350 --> 00:13:43.429 9, 2012, along with other couples. It was a very 00:13:43.429 --> 00:13:45.889 calculated, very public declaration of equality. 00:13:46.450 --> 00:13:49.129 And the couple also adopted a son around 1998. 00:13:49.450 --> 00:13:52.149 Yeah, adopted their son DJ as an infant around 00:13:52.149 --> 00:13:55.450 1998. And Savage was incredibly public about 00:13:55.450 --> 00:13:57.250 that whole process. He wrote a book about it, 00:13:57.269 --> 00:13:59.690 didn't he? He did. Chronicled that whole intense 00:13:59.690 --> 00:14:03.509 personal journey in his 1999 book, The Kid. What 00:14:03.509 --> 00:14:05.629 happened after my boyfriend and I decided to 00:14:05.629 --> 00:14:07.960 go get pregnant? That book must have been really 00:14:07.960 --> 00:14:10.799 important for normalizing queer families. Hugely 00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:13.299 important. Showed the emotional side, the logistical 00:14:13.299 --> 00:14:16.659 hurdles, the legal realities of gay couples building 00:14:16.659 --> 00:14:19.580 a family through adoption. It basically turned 00:14:19.580 --> 00:14:22.240 their private story into foundational reading 00:14:22.240 --> 00:14:25.360 for the movement. OK, let's pivot to the It Gets 00:14:25.360 --> 00:14:28.419 Better project. The name itself is now like a 00:14:28.419 --> 00:14:31.200 global mantra. What was the specific tragedy 00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:33.460 that kicked it off? The project was founded September 00:14:33.460 --> 00:14:37.340 21st, 2010. Directly in response to the suicide 00:14:37.340 --> 00:14:40.000 of a 15 -year -old named Billy Lucas. Who was 00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:41.980 bullied. Relentlessly bullied, yeah, for his 00:14:41.980 --> 00:14:44.700 perceived sexual orientation. Savage and Miller 00:14:44.700 --> 00:14:47.259 saw this awful tragedy and just felt they had 00:14:47.259 --> 00:14:49.159 to do something. Leverage their platforms. And 00:14:49.159 --> 00:14:52.299 the idea was simple, but powerful. Incredibly 00:14:52.299 --> 00:14:55.690 effective. Just ask adults. queer straight famous 00:14:55.690 --> 00:14:59.990 regular folks to submit video testimonials messages 00:14:59.990 --> 00:15:03.509 assuring lgbtq youth that life absolutely gets 00:15:03.509 --> 00:15:05.610 better after the hell of high school bullying 00:15:05.610 --> 00:15:08.309 and isolation flood the internet with hope basically 00:15:08.309 --> 00:15:11.700 that was the goal and the response was just The 00:15:11.700 --> 00:15:13.620 scale tells you how desperately that message 00:15:13.620 --> 00:15:16.159 was needed. How big did it get? By November 2013, 00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:18.740 so just about three years later, the project 00:15:18.740 --> 00:15:22.480 had over 50 ,000 user -created videos, testimonials, 00:15:22.559 --> 00:15:27.090 and over 50 million views combined. Wow. That's 00:15:27.090 --> 00:15:28.909 incredible velocity from a heartfelt response 00:15:28.909 --> 00:15:30.950 to this massive digital movement. And it got 00:15:30.950 --> 00:15:33.730 major recognition to awards. Yeah. Won a Webby 00:15:33.730 --> 00:15:36.850 Award for special achievement in 2011 and significantly 00:15:36.850 --> 00:15:39.570 the Emmy Governor's Award in 2012. The Governor's 00:15:39.570 --> 00:15:41.289 Award. That's a big deal. It's for achievements 00:15:41.289 --> 00:15:44.129 beyond standard TV categories. Exactly. It's 00:15:44.129 --> 00:15:46.549 cemented. It gets better and not just as successful 00:15:46.549 --> 00:15:49.129 activism, but as like essential public service 00:15:49.129 --> 00:15:52.350 media. Really profound impact. OK, so moving 00:15:52.350 --> 00:15:56.840 from life saving activism to. Well, something 00:15:56.840 --> 00:15:59.899 very different. Boundary -pushing art. We have 00:15:59.899 --> 00:16:02.679 to talk about the annual HMP film festival that 00:16:02.679 --> 00:16:05.379 Savage coordinates. Right. The juxtaposition 00:16:05.379 --> 00:16:08.299 is classic Savage. That cognitive dissonance 00:16:08.299 --> 00:16:10.720 he relies on to keep everyone talking. It feels 00:16:10.720 --> 00:16:13.799 like a radical move. What exactly is HGMP? It's 00:16:13.799 --> 00:16:16.120 an annual pornography festival. It showcases 00:16:16.120 --> 00:16:19.100 short five -minute porn clips submitted by viewers. 00:16:19.519 --> 00:16:22.279 Basically, anyone can submit on any pornographic 00:16:22.279 --> 00:16:24.860 topic they want. And it's successful? It tours. 00:16:25.059 --> 00:16:27.279 Hugely successful. Tours theaters across the 00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:29.720 country every year. But the curation, the philosophy 00:16:29.720 --> 00:16:31.720 behind it, that's the key part, right? It's not 00:16:31.720 --> 00:16:35.720 just random homemade porn. No, exactly. The unique 00:16:35.720 --> 00:16:37.340 element, and this is the political statement, 00:16:37.519 --> 00:16:39.659 is the mixing. The winning submissions are all 00:16:39.659 --> 00:16:42.360 shown together. Mixing what? Deliberately mixing 00:16:42.360 --> 00:16:46.340 straight porn, gay male porn, bi, lesbian fetish 00:16:46.340 --> 00:16:49.440 stuff, all one after another in the same program. 00:16:49.639 --> 00:16:51.720 Ah, okay, breaking down the silos. Right. It 00:16:51.720 --> 00:16:53.919 challenges the traditional, highly segregated 00:16:53.919 --> 00:16:56.799 way the porn industry usually works, suggests 00:16:56.799 --> 00:16:59.159 all kinds of sexual experiences deserve space 00:16:59.159 --> 00:17:02.230 on the screen, together. And there's that final 00:17:02.230 --> 00:17:05.130 crucial detail. What happens to the films afterwards? 00:17:05.549 --> 00:17:07.789 Savage publicly destroys all the submissions 00:17:07.789 --> 00:17:10.910 after the tour ends. Destroys them. Why? It acts 00:17:10.910 --> 00:17:13.170 as a kind of protective mechanism for the filmmakers. 00:17:13.549 --> 00:17:16.869 By destroying the tapes, he ensures this ephemeral 00:17:16.869 --> 00:17:20.309 homemade art isn't permanently exploited or leaked 00:17:20.309 --> 00:17:22.589 outside the festival context. Is the amateur 00:17:22.589 --> 00:17:25.390 participants a layer of security? Exactly. Security 00:17:25.390 --> 00:17:27.910 that traditional commercial porn definitely doesn't 00:17:27.910 --> 00:17:31.460 offer. It's performance art, sure. but layered 00:17:31.460 --> 00:17:33.740 with these ethical considerations for the people 00:17:33.740 --> 00:17:36.460 involved. It really seems like Savage has this 00:17:36.460 --> 00:17:40.000 history of not just writing about things, but 00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:42.539 outright weaponizing language for his campaigns, 00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:46.059 which takes us perfectly into section four, campaigns 00:17:46.059 --> 00:17:48.859 and controversial neologisms. We absolutely have 00:17:48.859 --> 00:17:51.279 to start with the infamous Santorum campaign, 00:17:51.599 --> 00:17:54.119 2003. Yeah, that one's legendary. The catalyst 00:17:54.119 --> 00:17:56.809 was then U .S. Senator Rick Santorum. He gave 00:17:56.809 --> 00:17:59.789 this interview comparing homosexual sex to bestiality 00:17:59.789 --> 00:18:03.289 and incest. Awful stuff. Truly egregious. And 00:18:03.289 --> 00:18:06.529 Savage felt the attack was so harmful, so beyond 00:18:06.529 --> 00:18:09.210 the pale, that he needed a response beyond just 00:18:09.210 --> 00:18:12.410 a column. He launched a campaign, a cultural 00:18:12.410 --> 00:18:14.930 sabotage campaign, really. He sponsored a contest, 00:18:15.029 --> 00:18:17.589 right, to redefine Santorum's last name. Correct. 00:18:17.710 --> 00:18:20.450 Held a contest among his readers. And the result 00:18:20.450 --> 00:18:23.869 was coining the term centaurum. Defined as? Defined 00:18:23.869 --> 00:18:27.829 as the frothy mixture of lube and fecal matter 00:18:27.829 --> 00:18:30.410 that is sometimes the byproduct of anal sex. 00:18:30.670 --> 00:18:33.529 Oh, my God. And he didn't just coin it. He successfully 00:18:33.529 --> 00:18:36.910 leveraged the Internet, set up a dedicated website 00:18:36.910 --> 00:18:40.220 spreading centaurum .com, I think it was. publicized 00:18:40.220 --> 00:18:42.900 the definition relentlessly. With the specific 00:18:42.900 --> 00:18:45.220 goal of dominating search engine results for 00:18:45.220 --> 00:18:47.460 the senator's name. Exactly. It was a modern, 00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:50.400 aggressive form of political action, using digital 00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:53.500 media, using gross -out humor, shock value, to 00:18:53.500 --> 00:18:55.819 inflict a very specific kind of reputational 00:18:55.819 --> 00:18:58.119 damage. And it worked, didn't it? Incredibly 00:18:58.119 --> 00:19:01.319 effective. Saravage essentially turned the senator's 00:19:01.319 --> 00:19:04.019 name into this widely known scatological joke. 00:19:04.220 --> 00:19:06.440 It overshadowed a lot of his political messaging 00:19:06.440 --> 00:19:08.400 for years. Did he ever offer to take it down? 00:19:08.700 --> 00:19:11.759 He did in 2010. But with the political price 00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:14.539 tag, he said he'd remove the website if Santorum 00:19:14.539 --> 00:19:17.380 donated $5 million to Freedom to Marry, the gay 00:19:17.380 --> 00:19:19.500 rights organization. Which Santorum obviously 00:19:19.500 --> 00:19:21.940 didn't do. He condemned the campaign. Of course. 00:19:22.200 --> 00:19:25.940 Called it hateful, disgusting. Savage, in response, 00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:28.559 basically argued that his campaign, while aggressive, 00:19:28.819 --> 00:19:31.680 was nonviolent. And it was a direct response 00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:34.579 to Santorum propagating real discrimination and 00:19:34.579 --> 00:19:37.059 harm. And that website or the definition, it's 00:19:37.059 --> 00:19:39.670 still out there. A permanent digital scar. It 00:19:39.670 --> 00:19:42.950 really proved the long -lasting power of a successfully 00:19:42.950 --> 00:19:46.109 weaponized neologism in the Internet age. And 00:19:46.109 --> 00:19:47.890 it wasn't a one -off strategy for him, was it? 00:19:47.970 --> 00:19:51.470 He used the same playbook in 2009 with the saddlebacking 00:19:51.470 --> 00:19:53.250 protest. Right, saddlebacking. That was aimed 00:19:53.250 --> 00:19:55.410 at Pastor Rick Warren, head of Saddleback Church. 00:19:55.690 --> 00:19:58.130 Why Warren? Warren was a very vocal supporter 00:19:58.130 --> 00:20:00.930 of California's Proposition 8, the ballot measure 00:20:00.930 --> 00:20:02.869 that banned same -sex marriage. And was there 00:20:02.869 --> 00:20:06.210 controversy because Obama invited it to the inauguration? 00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:09.259 Exactly. That heightened it. President Obama 00:20:09.259 --> 00:20:11.700 invited Warren to give the invocation at his 00:20:11.700 --> 00:20:14.920 first inauguration. Savage used the neologism 00:20:14.920 --> 00:20:17.980 to protest both Warren's politics and Obama's 00:20:17.980 --> 00:20:20.079 association with him. So what was the definition 00:20:20.079 --> 00:20:23.599 this time? Equally provocative. Oh yeah. It defined 00:20:23.599 --> 00:20:26.680 saddlebacking as the phenomenon of Christian 00:20:26.680 --> 00:20:30.039 teens engaging in unprotected anal sex to preserve 00:20:30.039 --> 00:20:34.099 their virginities. Wow. Okay. Linkey perceived 00:20:34.099 --> 00:20:36.799 hypocrisy about abstinence -only preaching. with 00:20:36.799 --> 00:20:39.400 specific, often undiscussed sexual behaviors 00:20:39.400 --> 00:20:42.180 among some religious youth, designed purely to 00:20:42.180 --> 00:20:44.980 provoke and critique. This kind of activism sometimes 00:20:44.980 --> 00:20:47.450 had consequences for him, though. Didn't a paper 00:20:47.450 --> 00:20:50.269 drop his column over Prop 8? Yeah, the sources 00:20:50.269 --> 00:20:52.490 mentioned that the Salt Lake City Weekly dropped 00:20:52.490 --> 00:20:55.309 Savage Love after he vowed to boycott Utah because 00:20:55.309 --> 00:20:57.529 of the strong Mormon church support for Prop 00:20:57.529 --> 00:20:59.970 8 there. So he was willing to take the hit. Seemed 00:20:59.970 --> 00:21:01.970 to be, yeah. If the goal was applying political 00:21:01.970 --> 00:21:04.549 pressure, and beyond these big national language 00:21:04.549 --> 00:21:07.630 -based campaigns, Savage was also a really powerful 00:21:07.630 --> 00:21:10.250 voice in local Seattle politics, mostly through 00:21:10.250 --> 00:21:12.509 The Stranger. What was his big local fight? His 00:21:12.509 --> 00:21:15.049 most high -profile local battle was against the 00:21:15.049 --> 00:21:17.650 Seattle Teen Dancers. ordinance, and the related 00:21:17.650 --> 00:21:20.569 crackdowns on all ages, music venues, and events. 00:21:20.809 --> 00:21:23.819 Fighting the no fun police. Basically. It was 00:21:23.819 --> 00:21:26.700 a fight against what he saw as moral panic disguised 00:21:26.700 --> 00:21:29.920 as city governance. Savage argued pretty forcefully 00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:32.819 that closing down supervised venues, places like 00:21:32.819 --> 00:21:36.119 Ground Zero or the Kirkland Teen Center, it didn't 00:21:36.119 --> 00:21:38.319 stop teenagers from getting together. It just 00:21:38.319 --> 00:21:40.240 pushed them somewhere else. Exactly. Pushed them 00:21:40.240 --> 00:21:43.000 into unsupervised, potentially more dangerous 00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:46.599 situations. He specifically cited like 7 -Eleven 00:21:46.599 --> 00:21:50.299 parking lots or unsupervised houses where boredom 00:21:50.299 --> 00:21:52.680 and lack of structure can lead to reckless behavior. 00:21:52.880 --> 00:21:55.259 It's the classic savage move, isn't it? Defend 00:21:55.259 --> 00:21:57.819 youth, defend fun, defend sex or dancing. And 00:21:57.819 --> 00:22:00.339 use that as a wedge issue to fight broader government 00:22:00.339 --> 00:22:03.779 control and, you know, moral prudishness. Looking 00:22:03.779 --> 00:22:06.500 at the pattern, national or local, he consistently 00:22:06.500 --> 00:22:09.319 frames these fights against sexphobes as fights 00:22:09.319 --> 00:22:12.319 for freedom, for self -determination. And often, 00:22:12.380 --> 00:22:14.799 crucially, for the physical safety and well -being 00:22:14.799 --> 00:22:17.240 of young people. That consistency, though, it 00:22:17.240 --> 00:22:20.539 brings us to Section 5, the hot zones of viewpoints 00:22:20.539 --> 00:22:23.859 and controversy. Because while Savage is generally 00:22:23.859 --> 00:22:26.420 seen as liberal, the source is making clear he 00:22:26.420 --> 00:22:29.440 has this fierce contrarian streak. Oh, definitely. 00:22:29.740 --> 00:22:31.720 Which sometimes led him to attack his own allies 00:22:31.720 --> 00:22:34.460 or use language that just generated huge backlash. 00:22:34.900 --> 00:22:37.759 His politics are, yeah, broadly liberal, but 00:22:37.759 --> 00:22:40.700 with these really undeniable libertarian and 00:22:40.700 --> 00:22:43.960 contrarian impulses just woven through. He constantly 00:22:43.960 --> 00:22:46.660 used his column to push readers, encourage them 00:22:46.660 --> 00:22:49.380 to voice opinions on politicians, get active, 00:22:49.420 --> 00:22:52.269 not passive. An early sign of that libertarian 00:22:52.269 --> 00:22:55.450 side was his opposition to laws banning the sale 00:22:55.450 --> 00:22:58.130 of sex toys. Yeah, that came up. When an adult 00:22:58.130 --> 00:23:00.309 video store owner in Mississippi got arrested 00:23:00.309 --> 00:23:03.130 after some local journalist did an expose. What 00:23:03.130 --> 00:23:05.490 did Savage do? He satirically suggested that 00:23:05.490 --> 00:23:07.630 his readers should mail all their unwanted sex 00:23:07.630 --> 00:23:09.710 toys directly to the journalist who wrote the 00:23:09.710 --> 00:23:12.569 story, Candace Krohn. Huh. Turned the moral enforcement 00:23:12.569 --> 00:23:15.289 into a logistical nightmare. Exactly. Use humor 00:23:15.289 --> 00:23:17.430 and absurdity to push back against what he saw 00:23:17.430 --> 00:23:19.930 as prudish overreach. Okay, but now we need - 00:23:19.950 --> 00:23:21.950 to get into the comments where his aggressive 00:23:21.950 --> 00:23:25.069 style really backfired, where he had to issue 00:23:25.069 --> 00:23:27.990 public apologies. Let's start with that 2006 00:23:27.990 --> 00:23:30.390 comment about the Green Party candidate Carl 00:23:30.390 --> 00:23:33.470 Romanelli. Right. Savage believed Romanelli was 00:23:33.470 --> 00:23:36.309 basically a spoiler candidate funded by Republicans 00:23:36.309 --> 00:23:39.650 to siphon votes. And in an interview, his rhetoric 00:23:39.650 --> 00:23:43.339 just went. Way over the top. Way over. He suggested 00:23:43.339 --> 00:23:45.740 Romanelli should be dragged behind a pickup truck 00:23:45.740 --> 00:23:47.799 until there's nothing left but the rope or just 00:23:47.799 --> 00:23:50.519 run over. I mean, that's extreme language, even 00:23:50.519 --> 00:23:53.019 for him. Absolutely extreme. And the condemnation 00:23:53.019 --> 00:23:55.920 was swift and widespread. Savage had to immediately 00:23:55.920 --> 00:23:59.359 issue a regret and an apology. Calling it? Calling 00:23:59.359 --> 00:24:01.700 the truck metaphor stupid, rude, thoughtless. 00:24:01.900 --> 00:24:04.359 He emphasized he didn't mean the threat literally 00:24:04.359 --> 00:24:06.440 at all, but it really highlighted the risks of 00:24:06.440 --> 00:24:09.220 using that kind of violent hyperbole in political 00:24:09.220 --> 00:24:12.359 talk. It wasn't an isolated incident. A few years 00:24:12.359 --> 00:24:14.940 later, 2011, he did something similar on real 00:24:14.940 --> 00:24:18.640 time with Bill Maher during that tense debt negotiation 00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:21.579 period. That's right. He was expressing his utter 00:24:21.579 --> 00:24:23.180 frustration with the congressional Republicans 00:24:23.180 --> 00:24:26.420 blocking things, and he just blurted out, I wish 00:24:26.420 --> 00:24:28.680 the Republicans were all fucking dead. Another 00:24:28.680 --> 00:24:31.579 immediate walk back required. Yep. Had to apologize 00:24:31.579 --> 00:24:34.519 quickly later that night on his blog. Said he 00:24:34.519 --> 00:24:36.960 didn't actually feel that way. Call it a flubbed 00:24:36.960 --> 00:24:39.819 expression of disgust. These moments really show 00:24:39.819 --> 00:24:42.420 that constant tension in his work. Between wanting 00:24:42.420 --> 00:24:45.220 to use shocking language for effect. And the 00:24:45.220 --> 00:24:48.000 literal harm or offense such language can actually 00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:50.880 cause, even if not intended literally. But maybe 00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:53.720 the most audacious and personally consequential 00:24:53.720 --> 00:24:56.779 act of political provocateurism came much earlier. 00:24:56.960 --> 00:25:00.259 The 2000 Iowa caucuses incident. Oh yeah, that 00:25:00.259 --> 00:25:03.559 story's wild. Savage went to Iowa to cover the 00:25:03.559 --> 00:25:06.480 caucuses for Salon magazine. And he was initially 00:25:06.480 --> 00:25:09.259 going to write about Gary Bauer. The conservative 00:25:09.259 --> 00:25:11.559 candidate. Yeah. He apparently intended to write 00:25:11.559 --> 00:25:14.420 a sort of humanizing piece on Bauer. But then 00:25:14.420 --> 00:25:17.339 Bauer's anti same sex marriage comments just 00:25:17.339 --> 00:25:20.299 enraged Savage so much that he abandoned the 00:25:20.299 --> 00:25:22.539 whole journalistic approach completely. And what 00:25:22.539 --> 00:25:25.019 he claimed he did next was just shocking. What 00:25:25.019 --> 00:25:27.450 do you claim? He'd been sick with the flu. So 00:25:27.450 --> 00:25:30.130 he claimed he volunteered for the Bauer campaign 00:25:30.130 --> 00:25:32.910 specifically to try and spread the flu to Bauer 00:25:32.910 --> 00:25:36.009 and his staff. Good out. He claimed he licked 00:25:36.009 --> 00:25:38.609 doorknobs, coffee cups, other surfaces in the 00:25:38.609 --> 00:25:42.150 campaign office. And the most infamous detail 00:25:42.150 --> 00:25:46.009 allegedly coated a pen in his saliva right before 00:25:46.009 --> 00:25:48.730 handing it directly to Gary Bauer himself. He 00:25:48.730 --> 00:25:51.390 claimed he licked a pen and gave it to a presidential 00:25:51.390 --> 00:25:54.410 candidate. That's that's next level provocation. 00:25:54.490 --> 00:25:57.119 It truly is. And the description. when published 00:25:57.119 --> 00:25:59.380 in Salon led to immediate and harsh criticism. 00:25:59.880 --> 00:26:02.900 Camille Paclia, who also wrote for Salon, called 00:26:02.900 --> 00:26:05.960 the described behavior sociopathic. Did Savage 00:26:05.960 --> 00:26:08.380 stand by the story? He later clarified, said 00:26:08.380 --> 00:26:10.480 the story was highly exaggerated for comedic 00:26:10.480 --> 00:26:12.759 effect, more like journalistic performance art, 00:26:12.900 --> 00:26:15.039 claimed the doorknob licking was made up and 00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:17.039 insisted he was actually no longer contagious 00:26:17.039 --> 00:26:19.160 by the time he joined the campaign team. But 00:26:19.160 --> 00:26:21.559 the controversy didn't stop with just the sensational 00:26:21.559 --> 00:26:24.480 claims, did it? There were actual legal consequences 00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:26.920 from that Iowa trip. That's right. It wasn't 00:26:26.920 --> 00:26:29.220 just performance. While he was there, Savage 00:26:29.220 --> 00:26:31.339 illegally registered and voted in the Republican 00:26:31.339 --> 00:26:34.210 caucus. He actually voted illegally. He did, 00:26:34.349 --> 00:26:36.450 and he later pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor 00:26:36.450 --> 00:26:39.170 charge. Fraudulent voting. What was the penalty? 00:26:39.450 --> 00:26:42.309 Got probation, had to do community service, and 00:26:42.309 --> 00:26:44.549 pay a fine. It's kind of a sobering reminder 00:26:44.549 --> 00:26:46.849 that pushing boundaries with performance art 00:26:46.849 --> 00:26:49.509 journalism can have very real, tangible costs. 00:26:49.869 --> 00:26:52.670 Definitely. Okay, let's pivot a bit to his views 00:26:52.670 --> 00:26:57.230 on social issues, sexuality itself. He's described 00:26:57.230 --> 00:27:00.509 his approach to family as conservative, which 00:27:00.509 --> 00:27:03.250 seems... counterintuitive given his public image 00:27:03.250 --> 00:27:05.690 yeah it sounds odd but his point is that he values 00:27:05.690 --> 00:27:08.369 commitment building a stable family unit, which 00:27:08.369 --> 00:27:10.269 is conservative in that traditional structural 00:27:10.269 --> 00:27:13.109 sense. Okay. However, he is deeply skeptical 00:27:13.109 --> 00:27:15.650 of what he calls simplistic views of monogamy. 00:27:15.829 --> 00:27:18.549 His column has consistently been a space to discuss, 00:27:18.769 --> 00:27:21.009 explore, and frankly normalize non -monogamy 00:27:21.009 --> 00:27:23.490 and polyamory for his readers, pushing boundaries 00:27:23.490 --> 00:27:26.230 there constantly. And he caused a huge stir back 00:27:26.230 --> 00:27:29.430 in 1997 with a very blunt take on the AIDS crisis. 00:27:29.690 --> 00:27:32.230 Oh, yeah. A reader wrote in and asked, simply, 00:27:32.329 --> 00:27:35.269 is the AIDS crisis over? And Savage answered. 00:27:35.329 --> 00:27:38.609 Just answered, yes. One word. Wow. That must 00:27:38.609 --> 00:27:40.829 have generated some heat. It generated weeks 00:27:40.829 --> 00:27:43.210 of intense discussion and debate right there 00:27:43.210 --> 00:27:46.849 in his column. His argument, contextually, was 00:27:46.849 --> 00:27:49.289 based on the medical reality emerging then. The 00:27:49.289 --> 00:27:51.190 new treatments. Right, the arrival of effective 00:27:51.190 --> 00:27:54.089 antiretroviral combination therapies. They were 00:27:54.089 --> 00:27:56.109 transforming HIV aids, at least in developed 00:27:56.109 --> 00:27:58.349 countries with access, from a near certain death 00:27:58.349 --> 00:28:00.650 sentence into a manageable chronic condition. 00:28:01.009 --> 00:28:03.089 So he was saying the crisis of mass death was 00:28:03.089 --> 00:28:05.500 ending. That was his point. Acknowledging the 00:28:05.500 --> 00:28:07.599 shift in the medical paradigm in places like 00:28:07.599 --> 00:28:10.000 the U .S., of course, it was hugely controversial 00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:13.099 given the ongoing global pandemic, the high transmission 00:28:13.099 --> 00:28:16.440 rates, the lack of access elsewhere. But he was 00:28:16.440 --> 00:28:18.920 forcing his readers to confront that specific 00:28:18.920 --> 00:28:21.519 medical shift. He seems willing to push against 00:28:21.519 --> 00:28:24.380 orthodoxy from any direction, left or right, 00:28:24.500 --> 00:28:26.819 which leads us, I think, to the most complex 00:28:26.819 --> 00:28:30.049 area of controversy surrounding him. His repeated 00:28:30.049 --> 00:28:32.930 clashes with parts of the LGBTQ plus community 00:28:32.930 --> 00:28:36.609 itself and allies, specifically around transgender 00:28:36.609 --> 00:28:39.049 issues. Yeah, this is a significant and recurring 00:28:39.049 --> 00:28:41.730 point of friction in the sources. Savage has 00:28:41.730 --> 00:28:44.450 faced repeated sustained criticism for his use 00:28:44.450 --> 00:28:46.390 of slurs targeting the transgender community. 00:28:46.630 --> 00:28:50.029 Slurs like? Specifically the word tranny. And 00:28:50.029 --> 00:28:52.470 also for other remarks on trans issues, like 00:28:52.470 --> 00:28:55.190 jokingly suggesting former Washington Attorney 00:28:55.190 --> 00:28:58.289 General Rob McKenna was a transgender man, just 00:28:58.289 --> 00:29:01.470 generally seen as insensitive or harmful comments. 00:29:01.730 --> 00:29:03.829 And these comments didn't just stay in the column, 00:29:03.910 --> 00:29:06.210 did they? They spilled out into real world protests. 00:29:06.490 --> 00:29:09.289 They did. Most famously, he was glitter bombed 00:29:09.289 --> 00:29:11.970 three times. Glitter bombed. Yeah. Protesters 00:29:11.970 --> 00:29:13.930 threw glitter on him during public appearances 00:29:13.930 --> 00:29:18.759 twice in 2011, once in 2012. explicitly alleging 00:29:18.759 --> 00:29:21.400 that his column and comments promoted transphobia. 00:29:21.539 --> 00:29:23.960 And the controversy really came to a head during 00:29:23.960 --> 00:29:26.279 a seminar at the University of Chicago in 2014. 00:29:26.680 --> 00:29:29.359 That was a major flashpoint. Savage was there, 00:29:29.480 --> 00:29:31.339 talking about his own history with using the 00:29:31.339 --> 00:29:34.160 word tranny, discussing the idea of reclaiming 00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:37.160 slurs. And a student objected. A student asked 00:29:37.160 --> 00:29:39.759 him to please use the term T -slur instead of 00:29:39.759 --> 00:29:42.220 saying the actual word. Savage objected to that, 00:29:42.240 --> 00:29:44.720 the policing of language, he felt. And to make 00:29:44.720 --> 00:29:47.519 his point about discussing slurs openly, he apparently 00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:49.839 listed examples of various other slurs. Which 00:29:49.839 --> 00:29:53.220 did not go over well. No. Some students in the 00:29:53.220 --> 00:29:55.400 room claim they felt threatened, deeply uncomfortable, 00:29:55.680 --> 00:29:59.140 targeted by his use of those words. even as examples. 00:29:59.440 --> 00:30:01.940 It illustrates that central paradox of his whole 00:30:01.940 --> 00:30:04.599 career, doesn't it? Perfectly. His goal, presumably, 00:30:04.819 --> 00:30:08.079 was to talk about repurposing hurtful words for 00:30:08.079 --> 00:30:10.359 empowerment, something he genuinely believes 00:30:10.359 --> 00:30:12.920 in and practiced with faggot. Exactly. That was 00:30:12.920 --> 00:30:15.759 his defense. A university representative backed 00:30:15.759 --> 00:30:18.299 him up, saying he was clearly discussing the 00:30:18.299 --> 00:30:20.579 process of reclaiming language, not directing 00:30:20.579 --> 00:30:22.880 slurs at anyone in the room. But the impact was 00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:24.940 different for some listeners. Right. And Savage 00:30:24.940 --> 00:30:27.240 himself later demanded a public apology from 00:30:27.240 --> 00:30:29.220 the students or critics who had accused him of 00:30:29.220 --> 00:30:32.380 actual hatred. It just perfectly captures how 00:30:32.380 --> 00:30:34.960 volatile using abrasive language for progressive 00:30:34.960 --> 00:30:38.220 aims can be. The attempt to reclaim can simultaneously 00:30:38.220 --> 00:30:41.660 cause genuine offense and alienate the very allies 00:30:41.660 --> 00:30:44.019 you might need. OK, we also need to touch on 00:30:44.019 --> 00:30:46.200 his controversial comments from back in 2001 00:30:46.200 --> 00:30:49.079 about child sexuality. This is obviously an extremely 00:30:49.079 --> 00:30:52.049 sensitive area. Extremely. And the context is 00:30:52.049 --> 00:30:55.150 absolutely crucial here. Savage was arguing against 00:30:55.150 --> 00:30:57.410 what he saw as cultural hysteria surrounding 00:30:57.410 --> 00:31:00.009 children. Saying society assumes what? Saying 00:31:00.009 --> 00:31:02.289 society wrongly assumes children have absolutely 00:31:02.289 --> 00:31:05.309 no sexual agency or desire, that childhood is 00:31:05.309 --> 00:31:07.630 completely asexual, which he disputed. Okay. 00:31:07.950 --> 00:31:10.289 But then he brought Anambita into it. Yes. And 00:31:10.289 --> 00:31:12.049 this is where it got really complicated and drew 00:31:12.049 --> 00:31:15.089 criticism. He critiqued Ambele, the North American 00:31:15.089 --> 00:31:17.829 man -boy love association, saying that group 00:31:17.829 --> 00:31:20.549 packages potentially reasonable arguments about 00:31:20.549 --> 00:31:23.390 teen sexuality and age of consent laws alongside 00:31:23.390 --> 00:31:26.130 irrational, insane arguments about seven -year 00:31:26.130 --> 00:31:28.470 -olds. And that mixing, even just to critique 00:31:28.470 --> 00:31:32.269 Ambele, muddied the waters. Hugely. Savage argued 00:31:32.269 --> 00:31:34.609 that because of Anambita's toxic association 00:31:34.609 --> 00:31:37.210 with pedophilia, any rational public discussion 00:31:37.230 --> 00:31:39.630 about acknowledging teen sexuality or debating 00:31:39.630 --> 00:31:41.769 age of consent laws becomes impossible. It just 00:31:41.769 --> 00:31:44.410 gets simply shouted down. Yeah. So he was trying 00:31:44.410 --> 00:31:46.230 to distinguish between acknowledging healthy 00:31:46.230 --> 00:31:49.250 teen sexuality and protecting children from abuse. 00:31:49.549 --> 00:31:53.190 But the mere proximity of his critique to NMBLA, 00:31:53.349 --> 00:31:57.009 even to condemn their conflation, drew immediate 00:31:57.009 --> 00:32:00.069 and intense backlash. Very difficult territory. 00:32:00.549 --> 00:32:02.349 Another major moment of public confrontation 00:32:02.349 --> 00:32:04.730 happened during an anti -bullying speech he gave 00:32:04.730 --> 00:32:07.140 in 2012. Right. He was... Speaking to the National 00:32:07.140 --> 00:32:09.319 High School Journalism Convention. High school 00:32:09.319 --> 00:32:11.940 students. And during the speech, he encouraged 00:32:11.940 --> 00:32:15.119 them to. He encouraged the students to learn 00:32:15.119 --> 00:32:17.880 to ignore the bullshit in the Bible about gay 00:32:17.880 --> 00:32:20.960 people. Okay. That's direct. Very direct. And 00:32:20.960 --> 00:32:23.339 it prompted a walkout by some Christian students 00:32:23.339 --> 00:32:26.420 and advisors in the audience. How did Savage 00:32:26.420 --> 00:32:28.980 react to the walkout? His immediate reaction 00:32:28.980 --> 00:32:31.579 was apparently to call the walkout a pansy -assed 00:32:31.579 --> 00:32:34.279 move. He later apologized specifically for that 00:32:34.279 --> 00:32:36.359 comment, for the name -calling. But not for the 00:32:36.359 --> 00:32:39.099 core message? No. He stood firmly by the central 00:32:39.099 --> 00:32:41.420 point of his speech, which was anti -bullying 00:32:41.420 --> 00:32:43.619 and challenging religious justifications for 00:32:43.619 --> 00:32:46.299 bigotry against gay people. His contrarian streak, 00:32:46.440 --> 00:32:48.920 like you said, even hit close to home, inside 00:32:48.920 --> 00:32:51.220 his own newspaper. We have to mention the criticism 00:32:51.220 --> 00:32:53.539 he got from his colleague Lindy West about fat 00:32:53.539 --> 00:32:56.279 shaming. Yeah, that's an important one. In 2011, 00:32:56.740 --> 00:32:59.519 Lindy West, who worked with Savage at The Stranger 00:32:59.519 --> 00:33:02.460 Them, published this really powerful piece directly 00:33:02.460 --> 00:33:05.240 criticizing him. For what specifically? For repeated 00:33:05.240 --> 00:33:07.380 comments he'd made in his columns. about fat 00:33:07.380 --> 00:33:10.220 people, saying things like, rolls of exposed 00:33:10.220 --> 00:33:13.559 flesh are unsightly, just casual digs. And West's 00:33:13.559 --> 00:33:17.099 argument was? That this was just a cruel, subjective 00:33:17.099 --> 00:33:20.259 opinion, and she called the act of shaming an 00:33:20.259 --> 00:33:23.960 already marginalized and shamed population shameful, 00:33:24.380 --> 00:33:27.089 especially coming from someone like Savage. And 00:33:27.089 --> 00:33:29.430 this internal friction, this disagreement within 00:33:29.430 --> 00:33:31.650 the progressive media world there, it was later 00:33:31.650 --> 00:33:34.309 fictionalized, right? Yeah, it became a significant 00:33:34.309 --> 00:33:37.349 storyline in the Hulu series Shrill, which was 00:33:37.349 --> 00:33:39.849 based on West's memoir. It really shows that 00:33:39.849 --> 00:33:42.490 even Savage's closest colleagues and allies sometimes 00:33:42.490 --> 00:33:45.130 felt compelled to publicly challenge his rhetorical 00:33:45.130 --> 00:33:47.349 choices and blind spots. Okay, finally on the 00:33:47.349 --> 00:33:49.670 controversy front. Yeah. How did he respond in 00:33:49.670 --> 00:33:52.349 2017 to the allegations against Kevin Spacey? 00:33:52.599 --> 00:33:54.680 That was a moment where he applied his sharp 00:33:54.680 --> 00:33:57.539 moral line very clearly. When Kevin Spacey put 00:33:57.539 --> 00:34:00.279 out that statement, coming out as gay almost 00:34:00.279 --> 00:34:02.480 simultaneously with Anthony Rapp accusing him 00:34:02.480 --> 00:34:04.900 of assault when Rapp was only 14, Savage's reaction 00:34:04.900 --> 00:34:07.940 was quick and unequivocal. He tweeted something 00:34:07.940 --> 00:34:10.500 like, There's no amount of drunk or closeted 00:34:10.500 --> 00:34:13.880 that excuses or explains away assaulting a 14 00:34:13.880 --> 00:34:16.260 year old child. Drawing a very bright line. Yeah. 00:34:16.380 --> 00:34:19.179 Using his platform instantly to say basically 00:34:19.179 --> 00:34:22.320 child abuse is child abuse. Full stop. Regardless 00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:24.619 of the alleged perpetrator's sexual orientation 00:34:24.619 --> 00:34:27.340 or status or whatever else was in that messy 00:34:27.340 --> 00:34:30.300 statement. OK. Wow. So we have covered a lot 00:34:30.300 --> 00:34:33.139 of ground here. Video stores, Catholic seminary, 00:34:33.159 --> 00:34:36.679 search engine warfare, Emmy Awards. Glitter bombs. 00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:38.739 It's time to try and pull this all together. 00:34:38.900 --> 00:34:40.760 Yeah, synthesize it. What's the essential summary? 00:34:41.219 --> 00:34:44.199 Savage's impact, his legacy as seen through these 00:34:44.199 --> 00:34:46.599 sources. I think Savage's career is uniquely 00:34:46.599 --> 00:34:49.699 defined by these three simultaneous and often 00:34:49.699 --> 00:34:52.139 really contradictory pillars. Okay, pillar one. 00:34:52.219 --> 00:34:53.840 First, he's the essential guide, the voice of 00:34:53.840 --> 00:34:56.960 reason, science, empathy, and savage love, the 00:34:56.960 --> 00:34:59.480 person people turn to for actual advice. Pillar 00:34:59.480 --> 00:35:02.510 two. Second, he's the massively successful activist, 00:35:02.670 --> 00:35:04.889 the co -founder of the Emmy -winning, genuinely 00:35:04.889 --> 00:35:08.530 life -saving It Gets Better project. That's undeniable 00:35:08.530 --> 00:35:12.429 impact. And pillar three, the messy one. Third, 00:35:12.449 --> 00:35:14.809 and maybe the most defining, yeah, he's the relentless 00:35:14.809 --> 00:35:18.889 cultural provocateur. The guy who invented Santorum, 00:35:19.050 --> 00:35:21.769 who claimed he licked pens for political protests, 00:35:22.050 --> 00:35:25.550 who constantly uses abrasive, shocking language 00:35:25.550 --> 00:35:28.429 to force difficult conversations into the public 00:35:28.429 --> 00:35:31.710 square. Like her or not. His career really feels 00:35:31.710 --> 00:35:34.489 like the ultimate test case for blending radical 00:35:34.489 --> 00:35:37.389 sex positivity with super aggressive political 00:35:37.389 --> 00:35:39.969 commentary and highly visible public advocacy. 00:35:40.170 --> 00:35:42.349 He didn't wait for change. He instigated it using 00:35:42.349 --> 00:35:44.409 every single medium available to him. And his 00:35:44.409 --> 00:35:46.710 influence, it's recognized well beyond just the 00:35:46.710 --> 00:35:49.809 alt -weekly world or the LGBTQ community. Oh, 00:35:49.829 --> 00:35:52.090 yeah. The awards for his books alone show that. 00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:54.519 The kid won a Penn and West Award back in 99. 00:35:54.780 --> 00:35:56.980 Skipping Towards Gamora won a Lambda Literary 00:35:56.980 --> 00:35:59.380 Award in 2002. And he got that Humanist of the 00:35:59.380 --> 00:36:01.460 Year Award. Right, from the American Humanist 00:36:01.460 --> 00:36:05.260 Association in 2013, specifically for his advocacy 00:36:05.260 --> 00:36:07.980 of church -state separation and, crucially, his 00:36:07.980 --> 00:36:11.400 work for LGBTQ youth. He has a legitimate claim, 00:36:11.480 --> 00:36:13.039 I think, to being one of the most culturally 00:36:13.039 --> 00:36:15.679 influential columnists of the last, what, 30 00:36:15.679 --> 00:36:18.480 years? He really does. Yeah. But the sources 00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:21.099 also consistently show that his specific method, 00:36:21.239 --> 00:36:25.119 that enthusiastic, hypercharged, abrasive language, 00:36:25.260 --> 00:36:28.980 even when used arguably in the name of reclaiming 00:36:28.980 --> 00:36:32.460 slurs or advancing progressive causes, it frequently 00:36:32.460 --> 00:36:35.739 led to public apologies or intensified scrutiny, 00:36:35.940 --> 00:36:38.559 not just from opponents, but often from allies. 00:36:39.150 --> 00:36:41.989 That paradox is what defines him. Savage proved 00:36:41.989 --> 00:36:44.750 that shock tactics absolutely generate visibility. 00:36:45.130 --> 00:36:47.309 They can win campaigns like the Santorum effort 00:36:47.309 --> 00:36:50.230 undeniably. The cost. The cost, as we saw with 00:36:50.230 --> 00:36:52.269 the transgender controversies, the fat shaming 00:36:52.269 --> 00:36:54.989 critiques, is often paid in trust, in alliance. 00:36:55.090 --> 00:36:57.889 Within the very coalition he was at least ostensibly 00:36:57.889 --> 00:37:00.280 trying to build or support. Which brings us perfectly 00:37:00.280 --> 00:37:02.480 to our final provocative thought for you, the 00:37:02.480 --> 00:37:04.500 listener, to maybe chew on. When you're navigating 00:37:04.500 --> 00:37:07.119 these really complex cultural and political issues, 00:37:07.320 --> 00:37:09.960 especially ones that require huge shifts in public 00:37:09.960 --> 00:37:13.340 opinion, is the success of a movement better 00:37:13.340 --> 00:37:17.360 served by, well, Savage's signature style? That 00:37:17.360 --> 00:37:20.079 enthusiastic, abrasive provocation that grabs 00:37:20.079 --> 00:37:23.380 attention dominates headlines. Or is it better 00:37:23.380 --> 00:37:25.840 served by more measured, maybe more careful language? 00:37:26.510 --> 00:37:29.750 Language that deliberately seeks to avoid alienating 00:37:29.750 --> 00:37:33.050 potential allies, that prioritizes building broader, 00:37:33.170 --> 00:37:36.050 even if maybe slower, coalitions. Savage's entire 00:37:36.050 --> 00:37:38.369 legacy forces us to confront that fundamental 00:37:38.369 --> 00:37:41.409 choice, rhetorical velocity versus rhetorical 00:37:41.409 --> 00:37:44.050 patience. It's a powerful dilemma, a really potent 00:37:44.050 --> 00:37:46.090 question to leave you with. We've covered everything 00:37:46.090 --> 00:37:48.369 from seminary to sovereignty, from scandal to 00:37:48.369 --> 00:37:51.010 success, and that's our deep dive into the complicated 00:37:51.010 --> 00:37:53.210 career of Dan Savage. Thank you for joining us. 00:37:53.369 --> 00:37:54.369 Dive deeper next time.