WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.779 Okay, today we're doing a deep dive into someone 00:00:02.779 --> 00:00:06.259 really fascinating, the singer -songwriter, the 00:00:06.259 --> 00:00:09.660 author, Mike Doughty. Yeah, his career is, well, 00:00:09.759 --> 00:00:11.839 it's quite a story. Not your typical path at 00:00:11.839 --> 00:00:14.000 all. Definitely not. It's like a series of these 00:00:14.000 --> 00:00:17.039 really dramatic reinventions. And it almost perfectly 00:00:17.039 --> 00:00:19.780 mirrors how music itself has changed over, what, 00:00:19.820 --> 00:00:21.800 the last 30 years? That's a great way to put 00:00:21.800 --> 00:00:25.019 it. His whole journey, it's basically a masterclass 00:00:25.019 --> 00:00:27.780 in how to survive creatively. Yeah. How to adapt. 00:00:28.000 --> 00:00:29.760 Right. So we're going to trace it all, starting 00:00:29.760 --> 00:00:33.060 back in 92 with Soul Coughing. You know, that 00:00:33.060 --> 00:00:35.659 really groundbreaking band he fronted. All the 00:00:35.659 --> 00:00:38.130 way through the... Well, the messy breakup of 00:00:38.130 --> 00:00:40.210 that band. Oh, yeah. The very messy breakup. 00:00:40.210 --> 00:00:42.549 And then how he completely rebuilt everything 00:00:42.549 --> 00:00:45.210 himself, DIY style. And bringing it right up 00:00:45.210 --> 00:00:47.229 to today, which is maybe the most surprising 00:00:47.229 --> 00:00:49.469 part. This full reunion of the original band. 00:00:49.630 --> 00:00:51.490 After all that. It's kind of unbelievable, really. 00:00:51.670 --> 00:00:54.609 Yeah. So for our sources today, we've got a lot 00:00:54.609 --> 00:00:57.689 to draw on. Biographical stuff. Deep dives into 00:00:57.689 --> 00:01:00.469 his discography. And crucially, his own writing. 00:01:00.990 --> 00:01:03.929 His memoirs are incredibly frank. They really 00:01:03.929 --> 00:01:06.510 are. And that's key to our mission here. We want 00:01:06.510 --> 00:01:09.829 to give you, the listener, a really solid understanding 00:01:09.829 --> 00:01:12.469 of this artist. Someone who went from this very 00:01:12.469 --> 00:01:15.010 niche... downtown new york avant -garde scene 00:01:15.010 --> 00:01:19.269 to actual mainstream hits exactly and navigated 00:01:19.269 --> 00:01:21.790 some serious personal stuff addiction recovery 00:01:21.790 --> 00:01:24.870 and then maybe the most talked about thing how 00:01:24.870 --> 00:01:26.890 he basically tried to redefine his relationship 00:01:26.890 --> 00:01:29.290 with his own biggest songs yeah that whole re 00:01:29.290 --> 00:01:31.090 -recording thing we'll definitely get into that 00:01:31.090 --> 00:01:32.709 and we should probably just say up front the 00:01:32.709 --> 00:01:34.810 sheer amount of music this guy has put out since 00:01:34.810 --> 00:01:37.189 going solo oh totally michael ross dowdy born 00:01:37.189 --> 00:01:40.290 1970 by the way his solo work covers so much 00:01:40.290 --> 00:01:45.189 ground All rock. Yeah. But also alternative hip 00:01:45.189 --> 00:01:48.349 hop, electronic stuff, even trip hop. And since 00:01:48.349 --> 00:01:50.769 2000, which is when he got dropped by his label 00:01:50.769 --> 00:01:53.290 after Soul Coughing split. Get this, over 18 00:01:53.290 --> 00:01:56.730 albums, studio albums, live albums, EPs. Yeah. 00:01:56.829 --> 00:01:59.930 Since 2000. That's relentless. It is. And mostly 00:01:59.930 --> 00:02:02.489 independent. That level of sustained output, 00:02:02.650 --> 00:02:05.510 that independence, it's absolutely central to 00:02:05.510 --> 00:02:07.909 who he is as an artist now. OK, so let's start 00:02:07.909 --> 00:02:09.849 at the beginning, because like you said, his 00:02:09.849 --> 00:02:11.949 background is not what you'd expect. It's this 00:02:11.949 --> 00:02:15.449 really stark contrast to the kind of, you know, 00:02:15.449 --> 00:02:18.069 artistic chaos he ended up creating. It really 00:02:18.069 --> 00:02:21.490 is. His father, Robert A. Doughty, was a pretty 00:02:21.490 --> 00:02:24.110 prominent military historian, an officer in the 00:02:24.110 --> 00:02:26.509 U .S. Army. Right. So you picture the guy behind 00:02:26.509 --> 00:02:30.129 Super Bon Bon maybe coming from some artsy bohemian 00:02:30.129 --> 00:02:33.009 family. Nope, not at all. He grew up surrounded 00:02:33.009 --> 00:02:36.199 by serious structure. Army bases, Fort Knox, 00:02:36.539 --> 00:02:39.699 Fort Hood, Fort Leavenworth. These were his childhood 00:02:39.699 --> 00:02:41.840 homes. And it gets even more intense in his teens. 00:02:42.039 --> 00:02:44.099 He actually lived on the grounds of West Point, 00:02:44.219 --> 00:02:46.759 the United States Military Academy. His dad taught 00:02:46.759 --> 00:02:49.000 there. Think about that environment, discipline, 00:02:49.300 --> 00:02:52.419 rules, hierarchy. It's the absolute opposite 00:02:52.419 --> 00:02:54.300 of the downtown New York music scene he dove 00:02:54.300 --> 00:02:55.939 into. You have to assume that was something he 00:02:55.939 --> 00:02:58.000 was consciously pushing against escaping from. 00:02:58.159 --> 00:03:01.500 Oh, definitely. So age 19, he makes this huge 00:03:01.500 --> 00:03:04.150 shift, moves to New York City. And what does 00:03:04.150 --> 00:03:07.430 he study? Poetry at the New School. Trading the 00:03:07.430 --> 00:03:09.189 uniform for free verse, basically. Pretty much. 00:03:09.349 --> 00:03:11.810 Structured history for, well, spontaneous creation. 00:03:12.169 --> 00:03:14.449 And even in that poetry class, he was an interesting 00:03:14.449 --> 00:03:17.490 company. The sources mention this specific course, 00:03:17.710 --> 00:03:20.469 The Shape and Nature of Things to Come, taught 00:03:20.469 --> 00:03:23.189 by Siku Sundiata. Yeah, and check this out. One 00:03:23.189 --> 00:03:26.680 of his classmates, Ani DeFranco. Wow. OK, so 00:03:26.680 --> 00:03:30.039 even before the music really took off, he was 00:03:30.039 --> 00:03:33.379 already moving in these high caliber, fiercely 00:03:33.379 --> 00:03:36.360 independent artistic circles. Exactly. He wasn't 00:03:36.360 --> 00:03:38.520 playing professionally yet, but he was honing 00:03:38.520 --> 00:03:41.340 that voice, that kind of lyrical stream of consciousness 00:03:41.340 --> 00:03:44.439 thing that became such a signature for soul coughing. 00:03:44.479 --> 00:03:46.860 But the jump from poetry student to musician. 00:03:47.400 --> 00:03:49.699 That happened because of a specific place, right? 00:03:49.800 --> 00:03:52.039 The knitting factory. Absolutely pivotal. The 00:03:52.039 --> 00:03:54.479 knitting factory in the early 90s, it was just 00:03:54.479 --> 00:03:56.960 ground zero for avant -garde jazz, all sorts 00:03:56.960 --> 00:03:59.520 of experimental downtown music. A real hotbed. 00:03:59.680 --> 00:04:01.639 And he wasn't just hanging out there. He worked 00:04:01.639 --> 00:04:04.439 there as a doorman. Yeah, which is crucial. He 00:04:04.439 --> 00:04:07.060 wasn't passive. He was there night after night 00:04:07.060 --> 00:04:09.759 soaking it all in. The noise, the energy, the 00:04:09.759 --> 00:04:12.439 weirdness, frankly. Well, the guys who became 00:04:12.439 --> 00:04:14.379 Solkoff, they were all part of that scene, too. 00:04:14.539 --> 00:04:17.579 All of them. Dowdy, Mark Degley -Antoni on keys 00:04:17.579 --> 00:04:20.600 and sampler, Sebastian Steinberg on bass, Yuval 00:04:20.600 --> 00:04:23.259 Gabay on drums. They were all regulars there. 00:04:23.620 --> 00:04:26.100 That environment is literally where the band 00:04:26.100 --> 00:04:29.160 came together in 92. Let's dig into that scene 00:04:29.160 --> 00:04:32.660 a bit. What exactly was this avant -garde jazz 00:04:32.660 --> 00:04:35.120 like at the knitting factory then? How did that 00:04:35.120 --> 00:04:37.199 influence a rock band? Well, it was all about 00:04:37.199 --> 00:04:39.839 pushing boundaries. Lots of dissonance. Improvisation 00:04:39.839 --> 00:04:42.399 was key. And they definitely threw traditional 00:04:42.399 --> 00:04:44.779 song structures out the window. Okay. Rhythm 00:04:44.779 --> 00:04:47.579 sections were really fluid, complex time signatures, 00:04:47.660 --> 00:04:50.120 playing with textures instead of just keeping 00:04:50.120 --> 00:04:52.279 a simple beat. Right. So for Soul Coughing, you 00:04:52.279 --> 00:04:55.420 had Steinberg's bass lines, these walking, sometimes 00:04:55.420 --> 00:04:58.379 really jarring, almost atonal lines. And Gabby's 00:04:58.379 --> 00:04:59.920 drumming was super rough. restless very jazz 00:04:59.920 --> 00:05:02.060 influenced that created this incredibly loose 00:05:02.060 --> 00:05:04.879 improvisational bed and dowdy's spoken word poetry 00:05:04.879 --> 00:05:07.560 thing went on top of that exactly that and degland 00:05:07.560 --> 00:05:09.860 tony's samples yeah layered over this constantly 00:05:09.860 --> 00:05:12.120 shifting soundscape which brings us right into 00:05:12.120 --> 00:05:15.160 soul coughing the band part two basically they're 00:05:15.160 --> 00:05:18.519 run from 92 to 2000 unique sound some real success 00:05:18.519 --> 00:05:22.860 but volatile uh unique might be an understatement 00:05:23.160 --> 00:05:25.620 All music nailed it pretty well, I think. They 00:05:25.620 --> 00:05:28.819 called it a willfully idiosyncratic mix of improvisational 00:05:28.819 --> 00:05:32.319 jazz grooves, oddball samples, hip -hop, electronics, 00:05:32.720 --> 00:05:35.699 and noisy experimentalism. That's a mouthful. 00:05:35.800 --> 00:05:38.439 It is. But Doughty himself summed it up perfectly. 00:05:38.579 --> 00:05:41.779 He called it deep slacker jazz. Deep slacker 00:05:41.779 --> 00:05:44.240 jazz. I love that. It really does capture the 00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:46.279 contradiction, doesn't it? Totally. The deep 00:05:46.279 --> 00:05:50.040 jazz part is that complex, serious musical foundation. 00:05:50.300 --> 00:05:53.980 But then you have the slacker overlay his very 00:05:53.980 --> 00:05:56.500 laid back, almost rambling stream of consciousness 00:05:56.500 --> 00:05:59.480 lyrics. So how did his vocal style actually mesh 00:05:59.480 --> 00:06:01.759 with the band's playing, technically speaking? 00:06:02.100 --> 00:06:04.300 Well, that was the genius, but also eventually. 00:06:05.439 --> 00:06:07.819 The source of a lot of the tension. Dowdy's layers, 00:06:07.899 --> 00:06:09.360 they demand your attention. They're narrative 00:06:09.360 --> 00:06:11.920 specific. Right. But De 'Lan Tony was building 00:06:11.920 --> 00:06:14.139 these dense rhythmic landscapes out of samples, 00:06:14.300 --> 00:06:16.420 sometimes weird samples, sometimes snippets of 00:06:16.420 --> 00:06:19.019 things, often fragmented. On the early stuff, 00:06:19.220 --> 00:06:21.300 his samples weren't just decoration. Sometimes 00:06:21.300 --> 00:06:23.509 they were the main rhythm. So Doughty had to 00:06:23.509 --> 00:06:26.230 fit his free -flowing words into these rigid, 00:06:26.350 --> 00:06:29.230 often kind of strange, sample loops? Pretty much. 00:06:29.370 --> 00:06:31.930 It forced his natural verbal rhythm into these 00:06:31.930 --> 00:06:35.329 tight, unusual structures. The result was... 00:06:35.709 --> 00:06:38.230 Yeah, structured chaos. It worked, but you can 00:06:38.230 --> 00:06:40.350 see how it might create friction. And it worked 00:06:40.350 --> 00:06:42.009 commercially, at least for a while. They got 00:06:42.009 --> 00:06:43.930 signed pretty quickly to Slash, which was part 00:06:43.930 --> 00:06:46.029 of Warner Brothers then. Yeah, after that first 00:06:46.029 --> 00:06:50.310 gig in June 92, initially billed as M. Dowdy's 00:06:50.310 --> 00:06:53.350 Soul Coughing, things moved fast. They put out 00:06:53.350 --> 00:06:55.709 three studio albums that built momentum. Let's 00:06:55.709 --> 00:06:58.230 track that rise. First up was Ruby Vroom in 94. 00:06:58.550 --> 00:07:01.740 Right. Ruby Vroom was raw. Really experimental. 00:07:02.019 --> 00:07:04.959 It laid down that unique sound blueprint. Then 00:07:04.959 --> 00:07:07.699 came Irresistible Bliss in 96. And this is where 00:07:07.699 --> 00:07:09.360 they started to show they could maybe package 00:07:09.360 --> 00:07:11.480 that weirdness into something more like pop songs. 00:07:11.720 --> 00:07:13.540 Exactly. And it started to connect commercially. 00:07:14.259 --> 00:07:16.720 Irresistible Bliss hit 136 on the Billboard 200 00:07:16.720 --> 00:07:20.000 chart. Not huge, but significant. And you started 00:07:20.000 --> 00:07:21.980 hearing them on the radio more. Soundtrack to 00:07:21.980 --> 00:07:23.959 Mary got some traction on alternative radio. 00:07:24.220 --> 00:07:26.800 Peaked at 37 on the U .S. alt chart, yeah. And 00:07:26.800 --> 00:07:29.480 then the big one from that album, Super Bon Bon. 00:07:29.660 --> 00:07:31.480 Ah, Super Bon Bon. That was the breakthrough, 00:07:31.639 --> 00:07:34.319 definitely. Kit number 27, if you listen to that 00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:37.079 track, it's like the perfect soul -coughing formula. 00:07:37.439 --> 00:07:40.579 How so? You've got that driving, repetitive sample 00:07:40.579 --> 00:07:44.920 loop, kind of funky, but strange. And then Dowdy's 00:07:44.920 --> 00:07:48.860 very distinctive vocal delivery over it. It felt 00:07:48.860 --> 00:07:51.339 accessible, but it was still completely weird. 00:07:52.120 --> 00:07:53.939 That's a hard trick to pull off. And they didn't 00:07:53.939 --> 00:07:57.519 stop there. The sound kept evolving. 1998, El 00:07:57.519 --> 00:08:00.759 Oso. So to say this one had a lot more drum and 00:08:00.759 --> 00:08:02.740 bass influence. Yeah, they were definitely incorporating 00:08:02.740 --> 00:08:05.040 more sophisticated electronic sounds, faster 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:07.420 breakbeats. It was a natural progression, folding 00:08:07.420 --> 00:08:09.199 in what was happening in electronic music at 00:08:09.199 --> 00:08:11.240 the time. And El Oso was their biggest commercial 00:08:11.240 --> 00:08:14.220 success, right? By far. Reached number 49 on 00:08:14.220 --> 00:08:16.879 the Billboard 200. Pretty impressive for a band 00:08:16.879 --> 00:08:19.740 that weird. And this album had the hit Circles. 00:08:20.430 --> 00:08:22.670 circles. You couldn't escape that song. Peaked 00:08:22.670 --> 00:08:23.949 at number eight on the Billboard alternative 00:08:23.949 --> 00:08:26.790 chart. That's a proper hit single. And a huge 00:08:26.790 --> 00:08:29.430 part of why it was inescapable was where it showed 00:08:29.430 --> 00:08:31.889 up. That Cartoon Network commercial. Oh yeah. 00:08:32.320 --> 00:08:34.259 The one making fun of the repeating backgrounds 00:08:34.259 --> 00:08:37.559 in old cartoons. Using circles for that was genius. 00:08:37.779 --> 00:08:40.480 It just cemented them in the late 90s pop culture 00:08:40.480 --> 00:08:42.399 landscape. And it wasn't just Cartoon Network. 00:08:42.480 --> 00:08:44.799 They were all over soundtracks around that. Everywhere. 00:08:44.879 --> 00:08:47.200 It showed their versatility or maybe just how 00:08:47.200 --> 00:08:49.519 much their unique sound fit the vibe of the late 00:08:49.519 --> 00:08:52.840 90s. Let's tick some off. The X -Files soundtrack. 00:08:53.779 --> 00:08:56.720 Songs in the key of X. Yep. Unmarked Helicopters. 00:08:57.100 --> 00:09:00.769 1996. Then big movies. Batman and Robin. The 00:09:00.769 --> 00:09:02.789 Bug. The Spawn soundtrack, that collaboration 00:09:02.789 --> 00:09:05.409 with Roni Sykes. A plane scraped its belly on 00:09:05.409 --> 00:09:08.669 a sooty yellow moon. Great title. And showed 00:09:08.669 --> 00:09:10.850 their connection to that UK drum and bass scene. 00:09:11.049 --> 00:09:13.490 And even video games. Gran Turismo 2 had Super 00:09:13.490 --> 00:09:16.370 Bon Bon. Right, 1999. So yeah, they were kind 00:09:16.370 --> 00:09:18.710 of in this sweet spot. Critics liked them, alternative 00:09:18.710 --> 00:09:21.509 radio played them, and Hollywood used their music. 00:09:21.570 --> 00:09:23.710 Pretty unique trajectory for a band born out 00:09:23.710 --> 00:09:25.370 of that experimental knitting factory scene. 00:09:25.710 --> 00:09:27.289 Just as they're hitting this commercial peak, 00:09:27.470 --> 00:09:29.629 things are falling apart internally. The band 00:09:29.629 --> 00:09:32.590 breaks up in 2000. This is where it shifts from 00:09:32.590 --> 00:09:36.029 creative sparks to, well, bad blood. Yeah, and 00:09:36.029 --> 00:09:38.389 this is where Dowdy's own words, especially in 00:09:38.389 --> 00:09:41.450 his 2012 memoir, The Book of Drugs, become really 00:09:41.450 --> 00:09:43.950 crucial. He didn't just say they had disagreements. 00:09:43.990 --> 00:09:47.690 He called the band dynamic a dark, abusive marriage. 00:09:48.029 --> 00:09:51.230 Wow, that's... Strong language. It really is. 00:09:51.269 --> 00:09:53.090 It suggests that struggle, the constant push 00:09:53.090 --> 00:09:56.429 and pull between his vision and the band's improvisational 00:09:56.429 --> 00:09:59.649 approach, wasn't just creative tension. It became 00:09:59.649 --> 00:10:02.769 toxic. Damaging. And it wasn't just artistic 00:10:02.769 --> 00:10:06.450 fights. His personal life was spiraling. Massively. 00:10:06.549 --> 00:10:09.190 The memoir is brutally honest about his addiction 00:10:09.190 --> 00:10:12.309 issues. Opiate painkillers, heroin, alcohol. 00:10:12.610 --> 00:10:14.750 He makes it clear that his addiction was a huge 00:10:14.750 --> 00:10:17.620 factor in the band's volatility and why... Ultimately, 00:10:17.740 --> 00:10:19.980 it just couldn't continue. So the breakup wasn't 00:10:19.980 --> 00:10:21.919 just, we decided to go our separate ways. It 00:10:21.919 --> 00:10:23.960 sounds like it was almost a necessary implosion. 00:10:24.019 --> 00:10:26.200 For his own survival, maybe. That's how he frames 00:10:26.200 --> 00:10:28.799 it. An act of self -preservation. But when the 00:10:28.799 --> 00:10:31.240 band did end in 2000, it triggered this immediate 00:10:31.240 --> 00:10:33.879 professional and personal crisis for him. A total 00:10:33.879 --> 00:10:35.840 reset was forced upon him. And the consequences 00:10:35.840 --> 00:10:39.139 were immediate. Brutal. Even though El Oso and 00:10:39.139 --> 00:10:41.440 Circles had been successful, Warner Brothers 00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:45.250 dropped him. Just like that. Why? Didn't they 00:10:45.250 --> 00:10:47.929 see potential in him as a solo artist? Apparently 00:10:47.929 --> 00:10:51.210 not. They'd signed Soul Coughing, the unit. The 00:10:51.210 --> 00:10:53.350 label seemed to have zero interest in the front 00:10:53.350 --> 00:10:56.289 man, especially one who was newly sober and, 00:10:56.450 --> 00:10:58.889 you know, clearly damaged goods in their eyes. 00:10:59.029 --> 00:11:01.409 So rejected by the institution, that must have 00:11:01.409 --> 00:11:04.009 been rough. Rough, but maybe also the best thing 00:11:04.009 --> 00:11:05.470 that could have happened for his next chapter. 00:11:05.809 --> 00:11:08.629 It forced him to completely reinvent himself, 00:11:08.809 --> 00:11:11.950 strip everything back. And that rebirth starts 00:11:11.950 --> 00:11:14.330 with an album called Skittish. Right. The Skittish 00:11:14.330 --> 00:11:16.129 story is fascinating. It really sums up that 00:11:16.129 --> 00:11:18.370 theme of rejection, doesn't it? Totally. Because 00:11:18.370 --> 00:11:21.110 Skittish wasn't new material recorded after the 00:11:21.110 --> 00:11:23.590 breakup. It was an acoustic album he'd actually 00:11:23.590 --> 00:11:26.309 recorded way back in 1996. While soul coughing 00:11:26.309 --> 00:11:29.190 was still going strong. Exactly. But Warner Brothers 00:11:29.190 --> 00:11:31.529 rejected it back then. They wanted the electronic, 00:11:31.809 --> 00:11:34.750 sample -heavy band sound, not some stripped -down 00:11:34.750 --> 00:11:37.470 acoustic stuff. So after the split, he digs up 00:11:37.470 --> 00:11:40.950 this rejected album. And turns it into his first 00:11:40.950 --> 00:11:43.529 statement of independence. He didn't shop it 00:11:43.529 --> 00:11:45.570 around. He just started burning it onto CD -Rs 00:11:45.570 --> 00:11:48.690 himself. Plain white sleeves, super basic. Wow. 00:11:49.029 --> 00:11:52.230 The packaging, or lack thereof, was part of the 00:11:52.230 --> 00:11:55.330 message. This is just me, direct, no filter, 00:11:55.549 --> 00:11:58.190 my terms. And he didn't just release it. He took 00:11:58.190 --> 00:12:00.730 it on the road in a pretty extreme way. Oh, yeah. 00:12:00.870 --> 00:12:03.750 This is the legendary grassroots phase. Here's 00:12:03.750 --> 00:12:05.769 a guy who had played huge venues open for Dave 00:12:05.769 --> 00:12:07.990 Matthews at Madison Square Garden. Right. And 00:12:07.990 --> 00:12:10.230 now he's renting a car, driving himself across 00:12:10.230 --> 00:12:13.830 the country. His first solo acoustic tour covered 00:12:13.830 --> 00:12:18.840 9 ,000 miles. 9 ,000 miles. That's a serious 00:12:18.840 --> 00:12:20.840 commitment. It's the definition of grind. He 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:22.740 was doing everything, booking the gigs, driving, 00:12:22.899 --> 00:12:25.120 performing, and then after the show. Selling 00:12:25.120 --> 00:12:27.600 the CDs. Selling the CDs himself. Literally sitting 00:12:27.600 --> 00:12:29.659 at the edge of the stage, talking to people, 00:12:29.740 --> 00:12:31.500 selling these hand -burned copies of Skittish. 00:12:31.639 --> 00:12:34.320 No merch table, just direct interaction. That 00:12:34.320 --> 00:12:36.200 must have been such a contrast to the dynamics 00:12:36.200 --> 00:12:38.740 he described in the band, like direct connection 00:12:38.740 --> 00:12:42.080 versus that abusive marriage. You have to think 00:12:42.080 --> 00:12:44.710 it was therapeutic in a way. And incredibly effective. 00:12:44.970 --> 00:12:47.929 It took about three years of this constant touring. 00:12:48.070 --> 00:12:50.990 Three years? Yeah, relentless road work. But 00:12:50.990 --> 00:12:54.470 over that time, he sold 20 ,000 copies of Skittish, 00:12:54.529 --> 00:12:58.129 hand to hand. 20 ,000, independently? Independently. 00:12:58.210 --> 00:13:00.649 He built this whole new audience, people who 00:13:00.649 --> 00:13:03.549 knew him just as Mike Dowdy, the solo guy, completely 00:13:03.549 --> 00:13:06.110 separate from Soul Coffee. He proved he could 00:13:06.110 --> 00:13:09.210 exist and thrive on his own. Does that kind of 00:13:09.210 --> 00:13:13.190 intense DIY experience change how an artist views 00:13:13.190 --> 00:13:16.309 their own work? Like, does managing the business 00:13:16.309 --> 00:13:19.269 side force you to be constantly creating? I think 00:13:19.269 --> 00:13:21.789 it has to. When you are the label, the distributor, 00:13:21.830 --> 00:13:24.230 the whole operation, your relationship with your 00:13:24.230 --> 00:13:26.350 output becomes very direct. You learn exactly 00:13:26.350 --> 00:13:28.230 what connects with your audience, what keeps 00:13:28.230 --> 00:13:30.509 the whole thing afloat. It definitely fostered 00:13:30.509 --> 00:13:32.389 that habit of constant creation we see later. 00:13:32.590 --> 00:13:34.330 And even during this rebuilding phase, he was 00:13:34.330 --> 00:13:36.409 still doing some other stuff, like that BT track. 00:13:36.769 --> 00:13:39.879 Right. Never gonna come back down from BT's 1999 00:13:39.879 --> 00:13:43.039 album Movement in Still Life. Yeah. Dowdy did 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:45.399 the lyrics and vocals. It's a good reminder that 00:13:45.399 --> 00:13:47.340 even while he was grinding it out acoustically, 00:13:47.419 --> 00:13:49.399 he still had that connection to the electronic 00:13:49.399 --> 00:13:52.659 world. Okay, so that intense DIY period, the 00:13:52.659 --> 00:13:56.600 9 ,000 mile tours, it eventually leads to a comeback 00:13:56.600 --> 00:13:59.360 moment. Yeah. Part four, right. A chance encounter 00:13:59.360 --> 00:14:02.379 changes things again. Exactly. The turning point 00:14:02.379 --> 00:14:05.879 was the Bonnaroo Festival in 2004. Gowdy's there, 00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:07.919 still mostly doing his independent thing, and 00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:10.419 he bumps into Dave Matthews. Who, as we mentioned, 00:14:10.519 --> 00:14:12.320 was a big soul coughing fan back in the day. 00:14:12.419 --> 00:14:15.539 A huge fan. Had them open for him twice. including 00:14:15.539 --> 00:14:19.159 those MSG shows. And crucially, Matthews tells 00:14:19.159 --> 00:14:21.340 Dowdy he's actually a fan of his solo stuff, 00:14:21.419 --> 00:14:23.879 too. Specifically mentions the Rockety Roll EP 00:14:23.879 --> 00:14:27.259 and the song 27 Jennifers. Wow. That must have 00:14:27.259 --> 00:14:29.980 felt like huge validation. Proof that the grassroots 00:14:29.980 --> 00:14:32.120 effort was actually reaching people, even at 00:14:32.120 --> 00:14:34.659 that level. For sure. And Dowdy, being smart, 00:14:34.820 --> 00:14:36.740 didn't waste the opportunity. He had some rough 00:14:36.740 --> 00:14:38.500 mixes of an album he'd been working on in Minneapolis. 00:14:38.899 --> 00:14:41.179 Minneapolis. Interesting. Yeah, with producer 00:14:41.179 --> 00:14:43.200 Dan Wilson. They'd been connected by their manager, 00:14:43.299 --> 00:14:46.740 Jim Grant. So Dowdy gives these rough mixes to 00:14:46.740 --> 00:14:48.919 Matthews right there at Bonnaroo. And Matthews 00:14:48.919 --> 00:14:51.519 liked them. Loved them, apparently. Because he 00:14:51.519 --> 00:14:54.179 ended up signing Dowdy to his label, ATO Records, 00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:57.279 and released the album. Which became Hottie Melodic. 00:14:57.399 --> 00:14:59.899 Hottie Melodic, famously an anagram of Michael 00:14:59.899 --> 00:15:03.100 Dowdy. Ha! I never knew that. That's great. It's 00:15:03.100 --> 00:15:04.779 like stamping his own name on it, literally. 00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:08.059 It really symbolized that embrace of his solo 00:15:08.059 --> 00:15:10.759 identity. And the album did well. Singles like 00:15:10.759 --> 00:15:13.080 Looking at the Worlds from the Bottom of a Well 00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:16.279 and I Hear the Bells got significant exposure. 00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:19.720 Where do they pop up? TV shows, mainly. Grey's 00:15:19.720 --> 00:15:21.940 Anatomy, Veronica Mars, big shows at the time. 00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:24.139 That really pushed him back into the mainstream 00:15:24.139 --> 00:15:26.120 consciousness. And the ultimate proof he was 00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:28.740 back? Appearing on Letterman, the late show with 00:15:28.740 --> 00:15:31.299 David Letterman. That's a huge leap from selling 00:15:31.299 --> 00:15:34.299 CD -Rs off the stage edge. Absolutely. So post 00:15:34.299 --> 00:15:36.639 -Hottie Melodic, the floodgates kind of open 00:15:36.639 --> 00:15:40.039 in terms of output, right? Totally. This is where 00:15:40.039 --> 00:15:43.480 the sheer volume becomes undeniable. He puts 00:15:43.480 --> 00:15:47.220 out more mainstream -ish singer -songwriter albums 00:15:47.220 --> 00:15:49.980 like Golden Delicious in 2008, Sad Man, Happy 00:15:49.980 --> 00:15:53.220 Man in 2009. Consistent quality stuff. But he 00:15:53.220 --> 00:15:55.299 didn't just stick to that one sound. He kept 00:15:55.299 --> 00:15:58.240 experimenting. What about that album Dubious 00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:00.960 Luxury from 2011? That sounds different. It was 00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:02.960 different. That was him diving back into electronic 00:16:02.960 --> 00:16:05.919 music, sampling, chopping things up. Kind of 00:16:05.919 --> 00:16:07.919 like the soul -coughing aesthetic. But this time 00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:10.620 he was completely in control. doing all the production, 00:16:10.740 --> 00:16:12.960 the sonic manipulation himself. So proving he 00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:15.340 could do that weird stuff on his own terms. Exactly. 00:16:15.559 --> 00:16:18.059 It showed that even with the singer -songwriter's 00:16:18.059 --> 00:16:21.059 success, he still needed that experimental outlet. 00:16:21.389 --> 00:16:23.350 And alongside the official albums, he did these 00:16:23.350 --> 00:16:25.450 other releases that really connected with his 00:16:25.450 --> 00:16:27.909 core fans, right? Like that live album, Busking. 00:16:27.990 --> 00:16:30.049 Oh, Busking is amazing. Limited edition, only 00:16:30.049 --> 00:16:32.269 sold at shows. And it was recorded, get this, 00:16:32.409 --> 00:16:35.370 during an actual busking session in the 14th 00:16:35.370 --> 00:16:37.669 Street subway station in New York City in 2007. 00:16:38.090 --> 00:16:39.970 Seriously? He went back to playing in the subway 00:16:39.970 --> 00:16:43.179 after being on Letterman. Yep. Talk about contrast, 00:16:43.360 --> 00:16:46.120 right? Former major label star, West Point kid, 00:16:46.340 --> 00:16:50.000 now back playing for commuters. It speaks volumes 00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:53.169 about his connection to that direct. unmediated 00:16:53.169 --> 00:16:54.950 performance style. It feels like performance 00:16:54.950 --> 00:16:57.610 art almost on top of just playing music. It really 00:16:57.610 --> 00:17:00.509 does. And that direct engagement continued. He 00:17:00.509 --> 00:17:03.370 did the Question Jar show in 2012, an album based 00:17:03.370 --> 00:17:05.150 on his tours where he'd answer audience questions 00:17:05.150 --> 00:17:07.349 written on slips of paper. Super interactive. 00:17:07.630 --> 00:17:09.869 And maybe the peak of that direct to fan model 00:17:09.869 --> 00:17:12.750 was the Lo -Fi Lodge. The Lo -Fi Lodge. Also 00:17:12.750 --> 00:17:16.009 2012. That was wild. A subscription thing. He 00:17:16.009 --> 00:17:18.630 promised and delivered. 32 tracks over the year. 00:17:18.990 --> 00:17:21.829 Acoustic versions, demos, rarities. One track 00:17:21.829 --> 00:17:24.130 every single week. That's a demanding schedule. 00:17:24.890 --> 00:17:27.029 For him and the fans. It established this really 00:17:27.029 --> 00:17:29.369 intense, ongoing relationship with his core audience, 00:17:29.589 --> 00:17:32.109 which leads perfectly into how he started funding 00:17:32.109 --> 00:17:34.529 things. Right, the crowdfunding. He really embraced 00:17:34.529 --> 00:17:37.369 that early on. He was a pioneer, really. Used 00:17:37.369 --> 00:17:39.289 platforms like Pledge Music very effectively 00:17:39.289 --> 00:17:42.690 for multiple albums, Stellar Motel live at Ken's, 00:17:42.769 --> 00:17:45.069 and the big one, the Soul Coffee Rerecordings 00:17:45.069 --> 00:17:47.130 project. And wasn't he also doing Patreon pretty 00:17:47.130 --> 00:17:50.089 early? Yeah, using Patreon to release a new song 00:17:50.089 --> 00:17:52.609 every week for subscribers. Just five bucks a 00:17:52.609 --> 00:17:55.569 month. He essentially built his own self -sustaining 00:17:55.569 --> 00:17:59.210 creative engine funded directly by fans. No label 00:17:59.210 --> 00:18:02.049 gatekeepers needed. That freedom, financial and 00:18:02.049 --> 00:18:04.309 artistic must have been what allowed him to tackle 00:18:04.309 --> 00:18:07.529 the most charged project of his career. Definitely. 00:18:07.789 --> 00:18:11.390 Which brings us to part five, rewriting the past. 00:18:12.009 --> 00:18:14.730 Or at least re -recording it. 2013. Circles, 00:18:14.809 --> 00:18:17.930 Super Bon Bon, and the very best of soul coughing. 00:18:18.210 --> 00:18:21.950 The title alone is a statement. It's pure defiance. 00:18:22.089 --> 00:18:23.910 This wasn't just, here are some new versions. 00:18:24.009 --> 00:18:26.329 He explicitly said he was recording the songs 00:18:26.329 --> 00:18:29.009 the way he originally intended them. Before, 00:18:29.130 --> 00:18:31.789 in his view, the band altered or damaged them. 00:18:31.890 --> 00:18:33.839 Okay, but let's push on that. He called the band 00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:37.220 a dark, abusive marriage for years. Then he re 00:18:37.220 --> 00:18:39.339 -records the hits from that era, calls it his 00:18:39.339 --> 00:18:42.180 best of, and sells it. Isn't he still cashing 00:18:42.180 --> 00:18:44.160 in on the success created during that abusive 00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:46.640 period? Isn't he relying on that very catalog? 00:18:46.859 --> 00:18:48.460 That's the absolute crux of the controversy. 00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:51.160 It's the unavoidable ethical tightrope. So how 00:18:51.160 --> 00:18:54.160 did he justify it? His argument, laid out extensively 00:18:54.160 --> 00:18:56.819 in the book of drugs, was essentially therapeutic 00:18:56.819 --> 00:19:00.279 and artistic reclamation. He felt the songs themselves. 00:19:01.049 --> 00:19:03.710 His lyrics, his melodies, had been twisted by 00:19:03.710 --> 00:19:06.309 that negative environment. Re -recording them 00:19:06.309 --> 00:19:09.309 was, for him, about restoring their integrity, 00:19:09.549 --> 00:19:12.569 asserting ownership. So the memoir kind of served 00:19:12.569 --> 00:19:15.230 as the manifesto, justifying the musical act 00:19:15.230 --> 00:19:17.650 that followed. Pretty much. It framed the narrative. 00:19:17.849 --> 00:19:20.329 And how did his core fans react? Yeah, did they 00:19:20.329 --> 00:19:22.529 buy it? Literally and figuratively. Well, the 00:19:22.529 --> 00:19:24.450 Pledge Music campaign for the re -recordings 00:19:24.450 --> 00:19:27.430 was funded almost instantly. Hit 100 % in just 00:19:27.430 --> 00:19:30.829 a few hours. Wow, okay. So clearly, his dedicated 00:19:30.829 --> 00:19:33.089 fan base, the ones who'd have followed his solo 00:19:33.089 --> 00:19:35.609 journey and read the memoir, they supported his 00:19:35.609 --> 00:19:37.950 right to do it. They validated his version of 00:19:37.950 --> 00:19:40.329 events. And he treated these new versions as 00:19:40.329 --> 00:19:42.509 the definitive ones going forward. Absolutely. 00:19:42.529 --> 00:19:45.009 He toured behind them heavily, even put out another 00:19:45.009 --> 00:19:48.650 live album in 2014, Live at Ken's House, featuring 00:19:48.650 --> 00:19:50.910 only the re -recorded versions. So if you went 00:19:50.910 --> 00:19:53.269 to see Mike Dowdy solo then, you heard his versions, 00:19:53.410 --> 00:19:55.869 not the ones from the 90s albums. Exactly. It 00:19:55.869 --> 00:19:57.950 was the ultimate statement. This is how these 00:19:57.950 --> 00:20:00.259 songs are meant to be. sound now. A complete 00:20:00.259 --> 00:20:03.059 rebellion against his own recorded history. And 00:20:03.059 --> 00:20:04.980 all this was happening while he was also putting 00:20:04.980 --> 00:20:06.940 out books, right? Solidifying his narrative. 00:20:07.220 --> 00:20:10.880 Yep. Slanky. Poems and Songs in 2012 and The 00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:13.339 Book of Drugs the same year, which laid all the 00:20:13.339 --> 00:20:14.900 groundwork we've been discussing. And he wrote 00:20:14.900 --> 00:20:17.740 another memoir later, too. Yeah. I Die Each Time 00:20:17.740 --> 00:20:21.079 I Hear the Sound in 2020. That one focused more 00:20:21.079 --> 00:20:23.900 on his musical influences, how his tastes developed. 00:20:24.220 --> 00:20:26.859 His writing is crucial to understanding how he 00:20:26.859 --> 00:20:29.259 frames his entire career. He wasn't just sticking 00:20:29.259 --> 00:20:31.799 to music and books either. He did a rock opera. 00:20:32.039 --> 00:20:34.160 Based on the book of Revelation, yeah. Called 00:20:34.160 --> 00:20:36.819 Revelation in 2014. Always exploring different 00:20:36.819 --> 00:20:38.779 formats. And he physically moved away from the 00:20:38.779 --> 00:20:41.039 New York scene too. Moved to Memphis in 2015. 00:20:41.500 --> 00:20:43.759 Kind of reinforcing that identity as an independent 00:20:43.759 --> 00:20:46.160 artist operating outside the traditional industry 00:20:46.160 --> 00:20:49.000 centers. But even with all this focus on his 00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:51.839 own path, he did eventually circle back to the 00:20:51.839 --> 00:20:54.200 soul coughing material even before the reunion. 00:20:54.460 --> 00:20:57.559 That Ruby Vroom anniversary tour. Right, 2019. 00:20:58.119 --> 00:21:00.140 25th anniversary, played the whole album. That 00:21:00.140 --> 00:21:03.799 felt like maybe a sign. A controlled re -engagement, 00:21:03.819 --> 00:21:06.140 still on his terms, but maybe hinting that some 00:21:06.140 --> 00:21:08.500 healing was possible. Which sets the stage for 00:21:08.500 --> 00:21:11.859 the final act, part six, the new band, and then 00:21:11.859 --> 00:21:14.519 the completely unexpected reunion. Before the 00:21:14.519 --> 00:21:16.200 big reunion, though, there's Ghost of Vroom. 00:21:16.339 --> 00:21:19.059 His project with Andrew Scrapp Livingston, his 00:21:19.059 --> 00:21:22.180 longtime collaborator, announced in August 2020. 00:21:22.579 --> 00:21:24.789 What's the sound like there? It definitely leans 00:21:24.789 --> 00:21:27.250 back into that electronic hip hop influenced 00:21:27.250 --> 00:21:30.349 sample heavy style. It feels like a dedicated 00:21:30.349 --> 00:21:32.750 space for him to create new music in that vein. 00:21:32.890 --> 00:21:35.009 Yeah. Separate from the soul coughing legacy. 00:21:35.130 --> 00:21:37.089 And they've been pretty active. Oh, yeah. An 00:21:37.089 --> 00:21:40.849 EP in 2020, Ghost of Room 2. Then albums in 2021, 00:21:41.190 --> 00:21:44.269 Ghost of Room 1. And 2023, Ghost of Room 3. And 00:21:44.269 --> 00:21:46.430 consistent production, too. All produced by Mario 00:21:46.430 --> 00:21:49.339 Coldato Jr. Gives them a really unified, polished, 00:21:49.480 --> 00:21:51.660 modern sound. Interesting detail about the release 00:21:51.660 --> 00:21:53.680 order. Yeah, Ghost of Room 1 was actually recorded 00:21:53.680 --> 00:21:55.900 first, but they held it back until COVID touring 00:21:55.900 --> 00:21:58.500 restrictions eased up. Because for Dowdy, the 00:21:58.500 --> 00:22:01.660 live show, that direct connection is still paramount. 00:22:01.779 --> 00:22:04.259 The album release needed to coincide with being 00:22:04.259 --> 00:22:06.740 able to play it for people. That DIY grassroots 00:22:06.740 --> 00:22:09.339 ethos is still there. Okay, so Ghost of Room 00:22:09.339 --> 00:22:12.259 is bubbling along, and then the first crack in 00:22:12.259 --> 00:22:14.259 the ice between the old bandmates appears. The 00:22:14.259 --> 00:22:18.319 first real shockwave. February 2022. Dowdy and 00:22:18.319 --> 00:22:20.759 Sebastian Steinberg, the bassist from Soul Coughing, 00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:23.740 actually performed together. Where? How? It was 00:22:23.740 --> 00:22:25.559 during Steinberg's set with the Watkins Family 00:22:25.559 --> 00:22:28.519 Hour in L .A. They did Super Bon Bon and True 00:22:28.519 --> 00:22:30.779 Dreams of Wichita. First time any of them had 00:22:30.779 --> 00:22:33.799 shared a stage in 22 years. Wow. Just those two. 00:22:34.019 --> 00:22:36.660 Just those two. But it was huge. A public signal 00:22:36.660 --> 00:22:39.380 that maybe, just maybe, things were thawing after 00:22:39.380 --> 00:22:42.279 decades of frost. And that small step led to 00:22:42.279 --> 00:22:45.880 the big one in 2024. The massive news. June 2024. 00:22:46.380 --> 00:22:49.720 Soul Coughing officially reforms all four original 00:22:49.720 --> 00:22:52.859 members. Dowdy, Degley and Tony, Steinberg, Gabay, 00:22:52.900 --> 00:22:54.960 back together. After everything written in the 00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:57.140 memoir, after the re -recording, this is genuinely 00:22:57.140 --> 00:23:00.539 stunning. Monumental is the word. And they didn't 00:23:00.539 --> 00:23:03.259 just announce it, they announced a tour. September, 00:23:03.259 --> 00:23:06.900 October 2024. Their first tour as Soul Coughing 00:23:06.900 --> 00:23:10.380 in 25 years. This wasn't a quiet reconciliation. 00:23:11.160 --> 00:23:12.920 It was very public. And they went straight back 00:23:12.920 --> 00:23:15.039 into the spotlight, too, right? The TV appearance. 00:23:15.240 --> 00:23:17.559 Yep. Celebrated the 30th anniversary of Ruby 00:23:17.559 --> 00:23:20.119 Vroom by playing Super Bon Bon on Jimmy Kimmel 00:23:20.119 --> 00:23:23.400 Live in September. First TV appearance in decades. 00:23:23.619 --> 00:23:26.099 They fully embraced the reunion publicly. And 00:23:26.099 --> 00:23:28.619 it seems like it's a real ongoing thing, not 00:23:28.619 --> 00:23:31.059 just a one -off tour. Looks that way. They've 00:23:31.059 --> 00:23:34.019 already announced a live album, Live 2024, coming 00:23:34.019 --> 00:23:37.240 out in April 2025. That suggests this is a functioning 00:23:37.240 --> 00:23:39.799 professional band again. So wrapping this all 00:23:39.799 --> 00:23:42.359 up, Mike Dowdy's career is this incredible story 00:23:42.359 --> 00:23:44.500 of two identities almost. Totally. You've got 00:23:44.500 --> 00:23:47.220 the visionary, sometimes difficult leader of 00:23:47.220 --> 00:23:50.200 this cult groundbreaking band. Who then had to 00:23:50.200 --> 00:23:51.900 completely break away from it. Right. And then 00:23:51.900 --> 00:23:54.700 becomes a super resourceful DIY solo artist who 00:23:54.700 --> 00:23:57.519 masters connecting directly with fans, crowdfunding, 00:23:57.680 --> 00:24:00.220 building a whole career on his own terms. It's 00:24:00.220 --> 00:24:03.289 an amazing arc. From West Point Kid to Knitting 00:24:03.289 --> 00:24:06.769 Factory Doorman to Unlikely Pop Star to hitting 00:24:06.769 --> 00:24:09.589 rock bottom and then this painstaking rebuild. 00:24:09.890 --> 00:24:12.049 That rebuild phase is just incredible. The 9 00:24:12.049 --> 00:24:14.970 ,000 miles in the rental car, selling 20 ,000 00:24:14.970 --> 00:24:17.750 CDs out of the trunk, basically. That's pure 00:24:17.750 --> 00:24:19.859 creative survival. And we should definitely remember 00:24:19.859 --> 00:24:22.500 how important some specific places were for him, 00:24:22.500 --> 00:24:24.920 like Minneapolis. Oh, absolutely. Soul Coughing 00:24:24.920 --> 00:24:26.799 was apparently massive there, way bigger than 00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:28.720 in other cities, largely thanks to the radio 00:24:28.720 --> 00:24:30.859 station Rev 105 playing them constantly. They 00:24:30.859 --> 00:24:32.940 could play huge shows there. Yeah, five, ten 00:24:32.940 --> 00:24:35.839 times the size of shows elsewhere. And that connection 00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:37.640 was made permanent when they got a star on the 00:24:37.640 --> 00:24:40.200 First Avenue mural. The iconic club in Minneapolis. 00:24:40.539 --> 00:24:43.779 Wow. Yeah, a huge honor. It shows he wasn't just 00:24:43.779 --> 00:24:46.480 an NYC phenomenon. He had these... deep regional 00:24:46.480 --> 00:24:49.079 roots too he took all that rejection all the 00:24:49.079 --> 00:24:52.559 personal struggles and somehow spun it into this 00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:55.279 incredibly diverse sustainable creative life 00:24:55.279 --> 00:24:59.259 the 18 plus solo albums the memoirs ghost of 00:24:59.259 --> 00:25:02.059 room the core theme feels like self -reclamation 00:25:02.059 --> 00:25:05.160 doesn't it taking control of his story his music 00:25:05.160 --> 00:25:08.940 exactly he weaponized the trauma of soul coughing 00:25:09.279 --> 00:25:11.660 Using it as fuel for his fiercely independent 00:25:11.660 --> 00:25:14.539 solo identity. Which makes this 2024 reunion 00:25:14.539 --> 00:25:18.259 just so... fascinatingly complex especially for 00:25:18.259 --> 00:25:20.500 you the listener who might know the history right 00:25:20.500 --> 00:25:23.660 because he spent years telling everyone how bad 00:25:23.660 --> 00:25:25.480 it was how the original songs were compromised 00:25:25.480 --> 00:25:28.940 he literally re -recorded them to fix them framing 00:25:28.940 --> 00:25:32.019 his whole solo thing as a rebellion against that 00:25:32.019 --> 00:25:34.599 past so now they're all back together all four 00:25:34.599 --> 00:25:37.599 original guys playing those original songs presumably 00:25:37.599 --> 00:25:39.880 closer to the original versions which leaves 00:25:39.880 --> 00:25:41.880 us with this really provocative question doesn't 00:25:41.880 --> 00:25:45.299 it after an artist goes to such lengths to defy 00:25:45.299 --> 00:25:47.500 and redefine their own history, their own hits. 00:25:47.640 --> 00:25:49.039 What does it sound like when they reconcile? 00:25:49.099 --> 00:25:52.440 How does the sound of this 2024 reunion square 00:25:52.440 --> 00:25:54.440 up against the sound of rebellion that defined 00:25:54.440 --> 00:25:57.259 him for so long? That contrast. That's something 00:25:57.259 --> 00:25:59.819 you, the listener, really have to hear and grapple 00:25:59.819 --> 00:26:01.980 with yourself. Is it closure? Is it compromise? 00:26:02.339 --> 00:26:04.440 What does reconciliation sound like after all 00:26:04.440 --> 00:26:04.599 that?