WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.780 Welcome back to the Deep Dive. This is where 00:00:01.780 --> 00:00:04.179 we cut through all the media noise and really 00:00:04.179 --> 00:00:06.780 try to give you a solid understanding of all 00:00:06.780 --> 00:00:08.839 the people actually building modern pop culture. 00:00:08.960 --> 00:00:12.000 That's right. And today we're diving into someone 00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:15.859 whose impact is, well, it's huge. Robert Kirkman. 00:00:15.960 --> 00:00:19.399 Exactly. A writer, a publisher, a producer. He 00:00:19.399 --> 00:00:21.379 didn't just join the party in comics and horror. 00:00:21.679 --> 00:00:24.199 He basically rewrote the rulebook for creator 00:00:24.199 --> 00:00:26.699 ownership. Yeah. If you've watched, you know, 00:00:26.699 --> 00:00:29.399 those big prestige horror shows on TV or maybe 00:00:29.399 --> 00:00:32.899 that really smart kind of brutal superhero cartoon, 00:00:33.140 --> 00:00:35.719 you felt his work. We're looking at the engine 00:00:35.719 --> 00:00:39.140 behind franchises that have, frankly, defined 00:00:39.140 --> 00:00:41.840 the last 20 years or so. And what's really fascinating 00:00:41.840 --> 00:00:44.159 about Kirkman, I think, isn't just the writing, 00:00:44.280 --> 00:00:46.320 which is great, obviously. It's his strategic 00:00:46.320 --> 00:00:49.119 mind, how he built this whole empire skybound, 00:00:49.179 --> 00:00:52.000 dedicated to keeping control. control of his 00:00:52.000 --> 00:00:54.420 own ideas. Okay, so let's unpack that. Our mission 00:00:54.420 --> 00:00:56.659 for you today is basically to follow Kirkman's 00:00:56.659 --> 00:00:58.859 journey. Right from the start, like self -publishing 00:00:58.859 --> 00:01:01.859 this wild parody comic. Gotta poke. Navigating 00:01:01.859 --> 00:01:03.880 the whole image comic scene, which was super 00:01:03.880 --> 00:01:06.299 competitive. Oh, yeah. And then finally setting 00:01:06.299 --> 00:01:08.819 up Skybound Entertainment, which is now this 00:01:08.819 --> 00:01:12.420 massive multimedia company. It's quite the story. 00:01:12.640 --> 00:01:14.859 It really is the modern creator -owned success 00:01:14.859 --> 00:01:18.159 story. Built on talent, sure, but also on some 00:01:18.159 --> 00:01:21.180 incredibly sharp business moves. Quick facts 00:01:21.180 --> 00:01:23.480 for everyone listening. Robert Kirkman, born 00:01:23.480 --> 00:01:26.640 November 30, 1978, Lexington, Kentucky. Right. 00:01:26.760 --> 00:01:28.780 And today, yeah, he's known as a writer, producer. 00:01:29.400 --> 00:01:32.260 But his other hat is just as important. He's 00:01:32.260 --> 00:01:34.219 one of the five partners at Image Comics. And 00:01:34.219 --> 00:01:37.299 not just a partner. He's the COO. Right. Chief 00:01:37.299 --> 00:01:40.439 Operating Officer. Exactly. That COO role is 00:01:40.439 --> 00:01:43.319 key. It says a lot. He's not just some writer 00:01:43.319 --> 00:01:45.379 they brought in. He's literally one of the leaders 00:01:45.379 --> 00:01:48.200 steering the ship at Image. And it's worth remembering 00:01:48.200 --> 00:01:50.340 he's the only one of those five partners who 00:01:50.340 --> 00:01:52.799 wasn't an original Image co -founder. Which means 00:01:52.799 --> 00:01:55.560 his success, his leverage was so undeniable, 00:01:55.579 --> 00:01:57.180 they basically had to give him a seat at that 00:01:57.180 --> 00:02:00.439 table alongside the guys who, like... built the 00:02:00.439 --> 00:02:02.819 company? Absolutely speaks volumes. And the work 00:02:02.819 --> 00:02:04.599 we're talking about, I mean, the list is huge. 00:02:04.719 --> 00:02:07.379 The Walking Dead changed zombies forever. Invisible 00:02:07.379 --> 00:02:09.780 totally flipped the superhero script. Then his 00:02:09.780 --> 00:02:12.759 Marvel stuff, Marvel zombies, Irredeemable Ant 00:02:12.759 --> 00:02:17.080 -Man. Plus Outcast, Firepower. And now this massive 00:02:17.080 --> 00:02:21.139 new thing, the Energon universe. Yeah, it definitely 00:02:21.139 --> 00:02:22.939 warrants a deep dive. Okay, let's start at the 00:02:22.939 --> 00:02:26.430 beginning. Ground Zero, Kentucky. Kirkman grew 00:02:26.430 --> 00:02:29.110 up in Cynthiana. Right. And you can really see 00:02:29.110 --> 00:02:31.229 how his early interests, you know, the stuff 00:02:31.229 --> 00:02:33.810 he was into as a kid, just laid the tracks for 00:02:33.810 --> 00:02:36.189 everything later. Lots of pulp. Lots of horror. 00:02:36.449 --> 00:02:38.110 He was a big horror movie fan, right? Oh, yeah. 00:02:38.729 --> 00:02:41.330 Documented. Loved the classics. The really visceral 00:02:41.330 --> 00:02:44.129 stuff. He specifically mentioned George Romero's 00:02:44.129 --> 00:02:46.469 Night of the Living Dead series, obviously. But 00:02:46.469 --> 00:02:50.569 also, like, European gore fests, like Fulci's 00:02:50.569 --> 00:02:52.789 Zombie 2. You can definitely see that influence 00:02:52.789 --> 00:02:55.719 in The Walking Dead. The grit. The action. Totally. 00:02:56.020 --> 00:02:58.159 And it wasn't just movies. He was also into the 00:02:58.159 --> 00:03:00.819 newer horror wave, like video games. He cited 00:03:00.819 --> 00:03:03.060 Resident Evil, the whole survival horror vibe. 00:03:03.280 --> 00:03:05.219 So he was soaking it all up across different 00:03:05.219 --> 00:03:08.439 formats right from the start. Exactly. And interestingly, 00:03:08.780 --> 00:03:11.719 he channeled that passion into his first actual 00:03:11.719 --> 00:03:14.719 comic, which was, well, it wasn't serious horror 00:03:14.719 --> 00:03:18.300 at all. It was Battle Pope back in 2000. A superhero 00:03:18.300 --> 00:03:21.419 parody. Super satirical. Tell us about Battle 00:03:21.419 --> 00:03:23.159 Pope. That sounds like the definition of indie 00:03:23.159 --> 00:03:25.620 hustle. Oh, it was pure DIY. He did it with artist 00:03:25.620 --> 00:03:28.180 Tony Moore, who later co -created Walking Dead 00:03:28.180 --> 00:03:30.419 with him. Right. And they self -published it 00:03:30.419 --> 00:03:33.099 under this amazing zero -budget label called 00:03:33.099 --> 00:03:36.080 Funkotron. Funkotron. Love it. The premise alone, 00:03:36.379 --> 00:03:39.460 this... badass fighting pope who's also a superhero 00:03:39.460 --> 00:03:43.939 it just screams indie attitude from that era 00:03:43.939 --> 00:03:46.240 and it wasn't just a one -off thing no not at 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:49.219 all it ran for 14 issues between 2000 and 2002 00:03:49.219 --> 00:03:52.400 and it actually got enough buzz enough heat to 00:03:52.400 --> 00:03:54.939 get adapted later on an adaptation pretty early 00:03:54.939 --> 00:03:57.500 on too yeah relatively way before the tv mega 00:03:57.500 --> 00:04:00.680 success in 2008 battle pope got turned into eight 00:04:00.680 --> 00:04:04.219 animated webisodes For Spike TV's website, believe 00:04:04.219 --> 00:04:06.460 it or not. So even back then, right at the start, 00:04:06.520 --> 00:04:08.240 he was already thinking about moving his creations 00:04:08.240 --> 00:04:10.259 into other media. Seems like it. That instinct 00:04:10.259 --> 00:04:13.340 was there early. Okay, so how does a guy making 00:04:13.340 --> 00:04:17.040 a satirical Pope comic under Funkotron end up 00:04:17.040 --> 00:04:19.720 at Image Comics? You know, the house that McFarlane 00:04:19.720 --> 00:04:21.759 and Liefeld and those guys built? Classic story, 00:04:22.060 --> 00:04:24.740 really. Persistence pays off. He pitched this 00:04:24.740 --> 00:04:27.579 other idea he had called Science Dog. Right. 00:04:27.639 --> 00:04:29.480 Science Dog itself didn't get picked up right 00:04:29.480 --> 00:04:31.720 away, but the pitch impressed them enough that 00:04:31.720 --> 00:04:34.160 Image hired Kirkman and another artist, Corey 00:04:34.160 --> 00:04:37.300 Walker, to do a Super Patriot miniseries. Ah, 00:04:37.600 --> 00:04:39.860 the foot in the door. Exactly. That was the key. 00:04:40.720 --> 00:04:42.480 After that he launched his first official image 00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:47.089 series, Tech Jacket, in 2002. EJ Su on art. It 00:04:47.089 --> 00:04:50.230 ran six issues, plus a one -shot called Cloudfall. 00:04:50.470 --> 00:04:52.370 Seems like a pattern. Using one gig delivers 00:04:52.370 --> 00:04:55.470 the next. But Tech Jacket, Super Patriot, those 00:04:55.470 --> 00:04:57.670 were solid, but not the Game Changers. That came 00:04:57.670 --> 00:04:59.610 later. Yeah, 2003. That's the year everything 00:04:59.610 --> 00:05:01.930 really shifted. 2003. You could basically draw 00:05:01.930 --> 00:05:03.649 a line in the sand for Kirkman's career right 00:05:03.649 --> 00:05:05.750 there. Absolutely. Because this is the year he 00:05:05.750 --> 00:05:07.970 launched the two big ones. The properties that 00:05:07.970 --> 00:05:10.870 would become the absolute pillars of Skybound. 00:05:11.350 --> 00:05:14.110 Invincible and The Walking Dead. Let's take Invincible 00:05:14.110 --> 00:05:17.600 first. Launched with Cory Walker, who he'd worked 00:05:17.600 --> 00:05:20.180 with on Super Patriot, this was part of Image 00:05:20.180 --> 00:05:22.420 trying to kind of refresh their superhero lineup. 00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:24.540 That was the idea, and the concept was immediately 00:05:24.540 --> 00:05:28.060 sticky. Mark Grayson, teenager, his dad is Omni 00:05:28.060 --> 00:05:30.680 -Man, basically Superman. Right. And Mark finally 00:05:30.680 --> 00:05:33.019 gets his own powers and becomes invincible. It 00:05:33.019 --> 00:05:35.620 starts off looking like a bright, fun superhero 00:05:35.620 --> 00:05:38.300 thing, a deconstruction maybe. Like it's dark. 00:05:38.540 --> 00:05:41.779 Yes. Oh yeah, it became famous for its, like... 00:05:42.060 --> 00:05:45.060 deep emotional stuff and often really shocking 00:05:45.060 --> 00:05:47.959 violence. It was pitched as this coming of age 00:05:47.959 --> 00:05:50.920 story with capes, but it went places most superhero 00:05:50.920 --> 00:05:53.379 comics just wouldn't. But even with a killer 00:05:53.379 --> 00:05:55.920 concept, keeping a monthly book going is tough. 00:05:56.519 --> 00:05:58.680 And we see a business decision here pretty early 00:05:58.680 --> 00:06:02.379 on. We too. That monthly grind in comics is brutal. 00:06:02.660 --> 00:06:05.120 You absolutely have to hit those deadlines month 00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:07.620 after month to keep readers hooked. And Walker 00:06:07.620 --> 00:06:09.959 couldn't quite keep that pace. Apparently not. 00:06:10.279 --> 00:06:12.759 Cory Walker's art was brilliant, perfect for 00:06:12.759 --> 00:06:14.639 the launch, but keeping up that monthly speed 00:06:14.639 --> 00:06:17.279 was a challenge. Kirkman needed consistency for 00:06:17.279 --> 00:06:20.240 the long haul. So enter Ryan Otley. Exactly. 00:06:20.339 --> 00:06:23.069 A really critical creative shift. Ryan Otley 00:06:23.069 --> 00:06:26.410 came on board as the main artist, and that partnership 00:06:26.410 --> 00:06:28.670 lasted for almost the entire rest of the series, 00:06:28.730 --> 00:06:32.509 like 144 issues worth. That decision, it really 00:06:32.509 --> 00:06:34.750 highlights how sometimes you have to prioritize 00:06:34.750 --> 00:06:37.750 the project's stability, the business side, even 00:06:37.750 --> 00:06:39.850 over maybe a personal artistic preference if 00:06:39.850 --> 00:06:41.449 you want to build something long term. It's a 00:06:41.449 --> 00:06:43.899 tough call, but yeah. The longevity of the IP 00:06:43.899 --> 00:06:46.300 was key. Okay, but the real story of strategic 00:06:46.300 --> 00:06:50.399 genius, maybe, comes with the other pillar launched 00:06:50.399 --> 00:06:53.660 that year. The Walking Dead, co -created with 00:06:53.660 --> 00:06:57.560 Tony Moore, ran for, what, 193 issues? Just insane. 00:06:57.939 --> 00:07:00.180 And became this massive cultural juggernaut. 00:07:00.220 --> 00:07:02.560 The origin story here is kind of legendary in 00:07:02.560 --> 00:07:05.079 comic circles, and it says so much about Kirkman 00:07:05.079 --> 00:07:07.439 knowing how publishing actually works. He pitched 00:07:07.439 --> 00:07:10.740 it to Image, and they weren't keen. They hesitated 00:07:10.740 --> 00:07:12.959 big time. They felt, you know, the market had 00:07:12.959 --> 00:07:15.259 enough horror and they really, really didn't 00:07:15.259 --> 00:07:18.120 want, quote, just another zombie story. Okay, 00:07:18.199 --> 00:07:20.040 so how did he get it past him? This is the famous 00:07:20.040 --> 00:07:21.980 bit, right? This is the famous bit. He basically 00:07:21.980 --> 00:07:24.480 deployed, well, you could call it the most audacious 00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:27.639 fib in modern comics history. He lied. He totally 00:07:27.639 --> 00:07:30.959 lied. He made up this completely fake high concept 00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:33.720 twist just to give the image execs something 00:07:33.720 --> 00:07:36.540 shiny and different. What did he tell them? He 00:07:36.540 --> 00:07:38.560 claimed the zombies were just like, act one. 00:07:39.240 --> 00:07:42.379 And the real story, the big secret, was that 00:07:42.379 --> 00:07:45.779 it was all part of an elaborate alien plot, like 00:07:45.779 --> 00:07:48.660 a sci -fi invasion thing hiding under the zombie 00:07:48.660 --> 00:07:52.040 story. No way. Yes way. He pitched this whole 00:07:52.040 --> 00:07:54.759 complex alien backstory, got the green light 00:07:54.759 --> 00:07:57.660 based on that. And then he immediately went back 00:07:57.660 --> 00:08:00.439 to his original plan, ignored the aliens completely, 00:08:00.600 --> 00:08:03.899 just wrote the grounded, character -driven survival 00:08:03.899 --> 00:08:06.819 horror story he wanted to tell all along. That's, 00:08:06.819 --> 00:08:09.439 wow. That's more than just a white lie. That's 00:08:09.439 --> 00:08:12.220 like strategic maneuvering. Totally. He saw what 00:08:12.220 --> 00:08:14.300 the publisher needed, a hook, something marketable, 00:08:14.300 --> 00:08:16.300 and he gave it to them knowing the actual quality 00:08:16.300 --> 00:08:18.139 of the story would carry it once it was out there. 00:08:18.279 --> 00:08:20.319 He played the game to get his creator -owned 00:08:20.319 --> 00:08:22.839 book published the way he wanted. Exactly. It's 00:08:22.839 --> 00:08:25.600 like the foundational myth of Skybound, almost. 00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:28.800 Success needs smart, creative, and smart business 00:08:28.800 --> 00:08:32.360 strategy. He was a pragmatist. And like Invincible, 00:08:32.580 --> 00:08:35.000 Walking Dead also had an artist change early 00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:38.259 on. Charlie Adler came in. Yeah. Charlie Adler 00:08:38.259 --> 00:08:41.240 took over with issue hashtag seven and his style, 00:08:41.340 --> 00:08:44.240 those heavy blacks, that gritty realism. It. 00:08:45.159 --> 00:08:47.299 completely defined the look and feel of The Walking 00:08:47.299 --> 00:08:50.500 Dead for the next, what, 180 plus issues? Right 00:08:50.500 --> 00:08:53.059 up to the surprise ending in 2019. Tony Moore 00:08:53.059 --> 00:08:55.000 still did covers for a while, though. He did. 00:08:55.139 --> 00:08:57.639 Moore drew the covers up to issue 24, and he 00:08:57.639 --> 00:08:59.759 did the covers for the first four collected editions, 00:08:59.940 --> 00:09:02.559 the trade paperbacks. But yeah, Adler was the 00:09:02.559 --> 00:09:05.179 engine room artist, visually delivering that 00:09:05.179 --> 00:09:07.600 relentless bleakness month after month. Beyond 00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:09.639 those two giants, he was still building other 00:09:09.639 --> 00:09:12.610 stuff at Image, too. Like The Astounding Wolfman 00:09:12.610 --> 00:09:15.090 with Jason Howard. Right. And look how they launched 00:09:15.090 --> 00:09:18.649 that one free comic book day, 2007. Smart. Use 00:09:18.649 --> 00:09:20.950 a big industry event to get maximum eyeballs 00:09:20.950 --> 00:09:23.990 on a new creator -owned book. Exactly. Leveraging 00:09:23.990 --> 00:09:25.789 the system. Again, thinking like a publisher, 00:09:25.809 --> 00:09:28.490 not just a writer. He was also editing Brit around 00:09:28.490 --> 00:09:30.269 then, another character he'd created earlier. 00:09:30.409 --> 00:09:32.830 So you see him moving into that editorial management 00:09:32.830 --> 00:09:35.450 space already. So while he's building this creator 00:09:35.450 --> 00:09:38.779 -owned powerhouse image, he's also... Kind of 00:09:38.779 --> 00:09:40.860 surprisingly, maybe, spending a lot of time writing 00:09:40.860 --> 00:09:42.799 for the big leagues for Marvel Comics. Yeah, 00:09:42.860 --> 00:09:45.360 that's a really important phase. Roughly mid 00:09:45.360 --> 00:09:48.460 -2000s. Started around 2003, actually, same year 00:09:48.460 --> 00:09:50.639 as Invincible and Walking Dead. What did that 00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:53.480 give him, working for Marvel? Two crucial things, 00:09:53.580 --> 00:09:56.679 I think. One, steady paycheck. Let's be honest, 00:09:56.899 --> 00:09:58.840 freelance work funds the creator -owned risks, 00:09:58.980 --> 00:10:01.960 especially early on. Right. And two... invaluable 00:10:01.960 --> 00:10:05.159 experience working with massive iconic legacy 00:10:05.159 --> 00:10:08.259 ip learning how that machine works from the inside 00:10:08.259 --> 00:10:10.980 and he got the full marvel experience right away 00:10:10.980 --> 00:10:13.960 including getting a project cancelled Yeah, pretty 00:10:13.960 --> 00:10:16.679 much. He was supposed to revive this obscure 00:10:16.679 --> 00:10:20.220 90s character Sleepwalker. Oh, I remember Sleepwalker, 00:10:20.379 --> 00:10:22.740 sort of. Well, Marvel shelved it before it came 00:10:22.740 --> 00:10:24.779 out. Yeah. But the work wasn't totally lost. 00:10:24.899 --> 00:10:26.720 The first issue stuff eventually showed up in 00:10:26.720 --> 00:10:29.500 this anthology called Epic Anthology No. 1 in 00:10:29.500 --> 00:10:32.320 2004. Anthologies are often where bits of canceled 00:10:32.320 --> 00:10:35.440 projects end up. But he didn't stay on obscure 00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:38.059 characters for long. He moved up to the A -list 00:10:38.059 --> 00:10:41.720 pretty fast. Oh, definitely. He landed some major 00:10:41.720 --> 00:10:44.580 gigs, did a solid two year run on Ultimate X 00:10:44.580 --> 00:10:46.659 -Men. That's a big team book. Lots of moving 00:10:46.659 --> 00:10:50.179 parts. He wrote the Captain America issues that 00:10:50.179 --> 00:10:53.059 tied into Avengers Disassembled, which was a 00:10:53.059 --> 00:10:56.240 huge. company -wide crossover event that shows 00:10:56.240 --> 00:10:58.659 a lot of editorial trust yeah that's bigger he 00:10:58.659 --> 00:11:01.620 wrote the entire run of marvel team up volume 00:11:01.620 --> 00:11:04.980 three and maybe the most kirkman -esque thing 00:11:04.980 --> 00:11:08.340 he did there was the irredeemable ant -man miniseries 00:11:08.340 --> 00:11:11.519 right that had his kind of dark humor slightly 00:11:11.519 --> 00:11:14.879 off -kilter vibe exactly injecting his voice 00:11:14.879 --> 00:11:17.379 into a known marvel character and of course he 00:11:17.379 --> 00:11:20.080 brought his signature genre zombies to the marvel 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:23.019 universe and it was huge marvel zombies yeah 00:11:23.019 --> 00:11:24.840 that came direct from his known obsession. It 00:11:24.840 --> 00:11:27.019 was basically letting Kirkman loose with his 00:11:27.019 --> 00:11:30.279 specific brand of visceral, relentless horror, 00:11:30.500 --> 00:11:33.179 but using Spider -Man and Captain America. The 00:11:33.179 --> 00:11:35.399 concept alone, Marvel heroes as zombies, was 00:11:35.399 --> 00:11:37.460 just brilliant. And it was a massive hit. It 00:11:37.460 --> 00:11:39.679 proved his genre instincts worked anywhere, even 00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:41.659 inside the walls of established corporate IP. 00:11:41.940 --> 00:11:43.899 So he's doing really well at Marvel, high -profile 00:11:43.899 --> 00:11:46.860 writer. But his heart and his business sense 00:11:46.860 --> 00:11:50.259 were pulling him back to image. End of July 2008, 00:11:50.559 --> 00:11:54.059 his Marvel freelancing stops. Why? Because image 00:11:54.059 --> 00:11:56.679 made him a partner. Wow. That's the most. That's 00:11:56.679 --> 00:11:59.580 the pivot. It signaled like a 100 percent commitment. 00:12:00.000 --> 00:12:02.259 to the creator -owned path, becoming one of only 00:12:02.259 --> 00:12:05.460 five partners and taking on the role of COO, 00:12:05.659 --> 00:12:07.659 Chief Operating Officer. Right, the business 00:12:07.659 --> 00:12:10.039 side again. Yeah. He wasn't just writing at Image 00:12:10.039 --> 00:12:13.440 anymore. He was helping run Image. As COO, he's 00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:15.919 managing the actual business operations of the 00:12:15.919 --> 00:12:18.799 publisher, directly influencing how other creators 00:12:18.799 --> 00:12:20.519 get their deals, how they maintain ownership. 00:12:20.720 --> 00:12:23.379 That's huge. That's incredible leverage. Did 00:12:23.379 --> 00:12:25.139 he wrap up anything else at Marvel after that? 00:12:25.220 --> 00:12:27.639 One last thing. His final published Marvel work 00:12:27.639 --> 00:12:30.320 was a five -issue miniseries in 2009 called The 00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:32.940 Destroyer Vol. 4. He did it with Cory Walker, 00:12:33.179 --> 00:12:36.139 his invincible co -creator, for Marvel's mature 00:12:36.139 --> 00:12:38.960 readers, Max Imprint. So he finished that up. 00:12:39.120 --> 00:12:41.139 And around this time, he wasn't just working 00:12:41.139 --> 00:12:42.779 with Marvel characters. He was collaborating 00:12:42.779 --> 00:12:46.539 with Image Royalty, too. Todd McFarlane on Haunt. 00:12:46.580 --> 00:12:48.899 Yeah, teaming up with an Image co -founder on 00:12:48.899 --> 00:12:52.220 a new book. And he even took over the Top Cow 00:12:52.220 --> 00:12:56.100 Comics pilot season for 2009 -2010, working with 00:12:56.100 --> 00:12:58.480 Mark Silvestri, another Image founder. What was 00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:00.259 pilot season for people who don't know? Oh, it 00:13:00.259 --> 00:13:02.539 was a cool concept. Basically, creators would 00:13:02.539 --> 00:13:04.940 launch a bunch of one -shot pilot issues for 00:13:04.940 --> 00:13:07.620 new series ideas. Okay. And then the readers 00:13:07.620 --> 00:13:09.279 would actually vote on where ones they liked 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:11.620 best, and the winners would get turned into ongoing 00:13:11.620 --> 00:13:15.110 series. So market testing built right. in audience 00:13:15.110 --> 00:13:17.570 feedback. Exactly. Kind of ahead of its time, 00:13:17.570 --> 00:13:20.210 in a way. Shows Kirkman was already thinking 00:13:20.210 --> 00:13:22.850 about engaging the audience directly. And now, 00:13:22.909 --> 00:13:25.789 as COO at Image, he's still shaping that whole 00:13:25.789 --> 00:13:28.269 environment, making sure the company stays focused 00:13:28.269 --> 00:13:31.529 on creator control. Okay, so that move, going 00:13:31.529 --> 00:13:35.029 from writer to partner and COO at Image, that 00:13:35.029 --> 00:13:37.669 really sets the stage for the next massive evolution. 00:13:38.639 --> 00:13:40.820 founding Skybound Entertainment. This is where 00:13:40.820 --> 00:13:42.879 it all comes together, where adaptation isn't 00:13:42.879 --> 00:13:44.980 just hoping some studio options your book, it's 00:13:44.980 --> 00:13:47.620 about managing it yourself. Skybound Entertainment, 00:13:47.899 --> 00:13:50.279 co -founded in 2010. What was the goal here? 00:13:50.600 --> 00:13:52.559 It was specifically built to be more than just 00:13:52.559 --> 00:13:55.419 a comic publisher. It was conceived as an entertainment 00:13:55.419 --> 00:13:58.179 company, dedicated to taking Kirkman's ideas, 00:13:58.460 --> 00:14:01.120 his IP, and developing them across all platforms, 00:14:01.279 --> 00:14:04.659 comics, TV, movies, games, digital, you name 00:14:04.659 --> 00:14:07.820 it. The keyword there seems to be... Absolutely. 00:14:08.340 --> 00:14:10.960 That's the genius of Skybound. It doesn't just 00:14:10.960 --> 00:14:14.220 make the comics. It centrally manages the licensing 00:14:14.220 --> 00:14:17.220 for all the big franchises, making sure that 00:14:17.220 --> 00:14:19.679 The Walking Dead, Invincible, all that stuff 00:14:19.679 --> 00:14:22.360 keeps its integrity no matter the medium. That 00:14:22.360 --> 00:14:24.299 central hub is the big difference, isn't it? 00:14:24.539 --> 00:14:26.700 compared to just selling rights off. Huge difference. 00:14:26.980 --> 00:14:29.500 And they doubled down on that in 2018 by creating 00:14:29.500 --> 00:14:32.399 Skybound Games, a whole division just for making 00:14:32.399 --> 00:14:35.000 video games based on their IP. He clearly understood 00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:37.720 early on that in today's world, the comic book 00:14:37.720 --> 00:14:40.360 is often just the starting point. The real money, 00:14:40.460 --> 00:14:42.960 the real power is in managing how that story 00:14:42.960 --> 00:14:45.220 flows into everything else. Precisely. And the 00:14:45.220 --> 00:14:47.480 prime example, the absolute poster child for 00:14:47.480 --> 00:14:50.019 the Skybound strategy has to be the Walking Dead 00:14:50.019 --> 00:14:52.740 TV universe. He started producing the AMC show 00:14:52.740 --> 00:14:55.830 back in 2010. Pilot directed by Frank Darabont 00:14:55.830 --> 00:14:58.950 famously. And this is where that insistence on 00:14:58.950 --> 00:15:01.049 control really paid off. You know how sometimes 00:15:01.049 --> 00:15:04.049 comic creators get like a token consultant credit 00:15:04.049 --> 00:15:06.009 and that's it? Yeah, happens all the time. Not 00:15:06.009 --> 00:15:08.970 Kirk Mullen. He was deeply involved. He got writing 00:15:08.970 --> 00:15:11.309 or co -writing credits on seven episodes of the 00:15:11.309 --> 00:15:13.889 main show. Including some really key ones. Oh, 00:15:13.889 --> 00:15:16.539 yeah. Like the season two finale, Beside the 00:15:16.539 --> 00:15:18.779 Dying Fire, which he co -wrote with Glenn Mazzara. 00:15:18.940 --> 00:15:22.580 Huge episode. Plus fan favorites like Vatos, 00:15:22.779 --> 00:15:26.580 After, Strangers. His actual presence in the 00:15:26.580 --> 00:15:29.379 writer's room helped ensure the show kept that 00:15:29.379 --> 00:15:32.649 dark. character first tell from the comics. And 00:15:32.649 --> 00:15:34.610 that success wasn't just contained to one show. 00:15:34.850 --> 00:15:38.029 It blew up immediately. Allowed for instant expansion. 00:15:38.350 --> 00:15:40.990 He co -created and executive produced the spinoff, 00:15:41.029 --> 00:15:43.250 Fear the Walking Dead. And again, stayed involved. 00:15:43.409 --> 00:15:45.870 Hands on. Co -wrote the pilot and the season 00:15:45.870 --> 00:15:48.169 one finale, The Good Man, with Dave Erickson, 00:15:48.230 --> 00:15:50.509 the showrunner. It just showed he could manage 00:15:50.509 --> 00:15:53.669 this growing multi -show franchise. That's usually 00:15:53.669 --> 00:15:56.649 like high level studio executive territory. He 00:15:56.649 --> 00:15:59.309 used a similar playbook for his exorcism comic. 00:15:59.629 --> 00:16:03.100 Outcast, right? With Paul Azacita on art. Yeah. 00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:05.100 And the timeline for Outcast is really interesting. 00:16:05.360 --> 00:16:08.120 Cinemax actually bought the TV pilot rights in 00:16:08.120 --> 00:16:11.320 2013. That was a full year before the comic book 00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:14.919 even launched in June 2014. Wow. So they bought 00:16:14.919 --> 00:16:17.840 it based on the concept and Kirkman's name alone? 00:16:18.100 --> 00:16:21.179 Pretty much. It shows how much clout the Kirkman 00:16:21.179 --> 00:16:23.620 brand had by then. The industry had that much 00:16:23.620 --> 00:16:26.000 confidence. And again, he wasn't just handing 00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:28.860 it over. He wrote or co -wrote two episodes of 00:16:28.860 --> 00:16:31.720 the TV show himself, keeping that creative thread 00:16:31.720 --> 00:16:34.419 connected. Okay, let's swing back to Invincible, 00:16:34.500 --> 00:16:37.159 because its road to the screen is like a whole 00:16:37.159 --> 00:16:39.840 saga in itself, a masterclass in holding onto 00:16:39.840 --> 00:16:42.860 your IP. It really is. Multiple attempts over 00:16:42.860 --> 00:16:45.000 more than a decade before the animated show finally 00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:47.259 hit big on Amazon Prime Video. Tell us about 00:16:47.259 --> 00:16:49.429 the first attempt. Way back. It goes all the 00:16:49.429 --> 00:16:52.649 way back to 2005. Paramount Pictures bought the 00:16:52.649 --> 00:16:54.690 film rights. They even hired Kirkman himself 00:16:54.690 --> 00:16:57.330 to write the screenplay. Okay. Sounds promising. 00:16:57.549 --> 00:16:59.669 But here's the crucial part. The studio didn't 00:16:59.669 --> 00:17:01.570 really move forward with it. It sat in development 00:17:01.570 --> 00:17:04.470 hell for years. And because of how the deal was 00:17:04.470 --> 00:17:07.269 structured... The rights eventually reverted. 00:17:07.309 --> 00:17:09.589 They went back entirely to Kirkman. That's not 00:17:09.589 --> 00:17:11.690 typical, is it? Usually studios lock that stuff 00:17:11.690 --> 00:17:14.930 down. Often they do. But this was a key contractual 00:17:14.930 --> 00:17:17.730 point. It protected him. He didn't lose his baby 00:17:17.730 --> 00:17:20.230 just because the studio got cold feet or changed 00:17:20.230 --> 00:17:23.329 priorities. He got invincible back. Ready to 00:17:23.329 --> 00:17:25.829 find a better home. Smart. So what happened next? 00:17:26.009 --> 00:17:28.769 Well, much later in 2017, a live action film 00:17:28.769 --> 00:17:31.029 project got announced, this time with Universal 00:17:31.029 --> 00:17:34.509 Pictures. And get this. Seth Rogen and Evan Goldberg 00:17:34.509 --> 00:17:38.230 attached to write, direct and produce. with Kirkman 00:17:38.230 --> 00:17:40.970 also producing Naturally. Okay, Rojan and Goldberg, 00:17:41.049 --> 00:17:43.349 that's big. Is that still happening? Apparently, 00:17:43.390 --> 00:17:46.630 yes. What's wild is that Kirkman confirmed in 00:17:46.630 --> 00:17:49.329 2021 that this live -action movie is still a 00:17:49.329 --> 00:17:51.890 separate thing moving forward alongside the animated 00:17:51.890 --> 00:17:54.849 series. So potentially two huge adaptations of 00:17:54.849 --> 00:17:56.990 Invincible running at the same time. That seems 00:17:56.990 --> 00:17:59.309 to be the plan, which just speaks to the power 00:17:59.309 --> 00:18:01.490 of the IP. And that brings us to the animated 00:18:01.490 --> 00:18:05.369 series. Amazon Prime Video announced 2018. Yeah, 00:18:05.390 --> 00:18:08.009 with Simon Racioppa as showrunner. And this one 00:18:08.009 --> 00:18:11.970 just exploded. Huge critical hit. Huge fan favorite. 00:18:12.089 --> 00:18:14.369 Got renewed for seasons two and three almost 00:18:14.369 --> 00:18:17.109 immediately in 2021. And Kirkman's involvement 00:18:17.109 --> 00:18:21.009 level. Deep. He's creator, executive producer. 00:18:21.329 --> 00:18:24.569 He personally wrote or co -wrote the series premiere 00:18:24.569 --> 00:18:27.450 episode. He wrote or co -wrote both season one 00:18:27.450 --> 00:18:29.950 and season two finales. He did the Adam Eve special 00:18:29.950 --> 00:18:32.750 episode. And he's credited on two episodes for 00:18:32.750 --> 00:18:35.109 season three already. He is right there making 00:18:35.109 --> 00:18:38.210 sure the core vision stays true. Skybound isn't 00:18:38.210 --> 00:18:40.400 just adapting Kirkman's comics, though. They've 00:18:40.400 --> 00:18:42.519 moved into producing original films, too. Right. 00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:45.359 That shows the diversification. Their first feature 00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:48.880 film as producers was Air, back in 2015, sci 00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:51.440 -fi thriller, starred Norman Reedus from Walking 00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:54.420 Dead, actually, and Jamon Hounsou. And more recently. 00:18:54.829 --> 00:18:57.289 Kirkman himself pitched the original story concept 00:18:57.289 --> 00:19:00.309 for that horror comedy Ranfield in 2023. You 00:19:00.309 --> 00:19:02.170 know, the one about Dracula's assistant with 00:19:02.170 --> 00:19:05.029 Nicholas Holt and Nick Cage. So by generating 00:19:05.029 --> 00:19:07.210 original ideas for Hollywood and putting the 00:19:07.210 --> 00:19:09.349 Skybound name on them, he's really establishing 00:19:09.349 --> 00:19:11.430 the company as a creative engine in its own right, 00:19:11.509 --> 00:19:14.089 not just an IP manager. So Skybound's established. 00:19:14.170 --> 00:19:16.150 The adaptation machine is humming. What's next? 00:19:17.180 --> 00:19:18.960 Kirkme and company seem to be constantly looking 00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:21.960 for new frontiers, global markets, revitalizing 00:19:21.960 --> 00:19:24.660 old IP. Yeah, the global push is really interesting. 00:19:24.779 --> 00:19:27.599 Take a project called Five Year. What was that 00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:30.359 about? It was this ambitious, pre -apocalyptic 00:19:30.359 --> 00:19:33.160 drama designed specifically for the Korean market 00:19:33.160 --> 00:19:36.279 and broader Asian audiences, too. A co -production. 00:19:36.440 --> 00:19:39.519 Exactly. A joint venture between Skybound and 00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:42.099 Viki .com, you know, that big streaming service 00:19:42.099 --> 00:19:44.440 that specializes in Asian dramas and stuff. Right. 00:19:44.519 --> 00:19:46.900 So Five Year was about a family dealing with 00:19:46.900 --> 00:19:49.059 a meteor that's going to hit Earth in five years. 00:19:49.829 --> 00:19:52.369 Planned to be filmed in Korea, streamed globally 00:19:52.369 --> 00:19:55.470 on Viki, they got an initial order for 16 episodes 00:19:55.470 --> 00:19:58.250 with a five -season plan. That shows a really 00:19:58.250 --> 00:20:00.910 aggressive move into international co -production 00:20:00.910 --> 00:20:03.569 and distribution, way beyond just the U .S. comic 00:20:03.569 --> 00:20:05.170 shop. They're definitely expanding the footprint. 00:20:05.430 --> 00:20:07.849 But the biggest recent news, the thing that got 00:20:07.849 --> 00:20:10.450 everyone talking, brings us right back to comics. 00:20:10.650 --> 00:20:13.670 And it signals this huge power shift to the Energon 00:20:13.670 --> 00:20:15.829 universe. Okay, break that down. What is the 00:20:15.829 --> 00:20:18.529 Energon universe? Well, it started kind of sneakily 00:20:18.529 --> 00:20:22.190 in 2020. Kirkman launched a new series with artist 00:20:22.190 --> 00:20:25.210 Lorenzo Di Felici called Void Rivals. Looked 00:20:25.210 --> 00:20:27.289 like a cool original sci -fi thing. But there 00:20:27.289 --> 00:20:30.430 was a twist. Huge twist. Inside the first issue, 00:20:30.569 --> 00:20:34.390 bam, Jetfire shows up. A Transformer. it was 00:20:34.390 --> 00:20:37.470 revealed that void rivals was actually the secret 00:20:37.470 --> 00:20:40.750 launch pad for a whole new shared comic universe 00:20:40.750 --> 00:20:43.829 called the energon universe and it involves in 00:20:43.829 --> 00:20:48.569 june 2023 the full picture emerged skybound kirkman's 00:20:48.569 --> 00:20:50.690 company had secured the comic book publishing 00:20:50.690 --> 00:20:53.930 rights to two of hasbro's absolute biggest most 00:20:53.930 --> 00:20:57.529 iconic properties transformers and gi joe wow 00:20:57.529 --> 00:21:00.170 so the company founded on a zombie comic kirkman 00:21:00.170 --> 00:21:02.970 had to literally lie to get published is now 00:21:02.970 --> 00:21:05.190 the official home for Transformers and G .I. 00:21:05.190 --> 00:21:07.690 Joe comics, linking them together in one universe. 00:21:08.170 --> 00:21:10.789 That's a statement. Massive. But before we get 00:21:10.789 --> 00:21:12.309 too carried away celebrating that, we do need 00:21:12.309 --> 00:21:14.789 to touch on the less glamorous side, the legal 00:21:14.789 --> 00:21:16.829 realities of creation. There was that lawsuit 00:21:16.829 --> 00:21:19.309 with Tony Moore back in 2012. Yeah, I got to 00:21:19.309 --> 00:21:21.190 address that. It's a crucial part of the story, 00:21:21.289 --> 00:21:23.329 even if it's uncomfortable. When something like 00:21:23.329 --> 00:21:25.450 The Walking Dead generates that much money, those 00:21:25.450 --> 00:21:27.529 early agreements, they get put under a microscope. 00:21:27.769 --> 00:21:30.420 So Moore sued Kirkman. He did. It was very public. 00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:33.460 Moore alleged that Kirkman had essentially tricked 00:21:33.460 --> 00:21:35.500 him into signing away his rights to The Walking 00:21:35.500 --> 00:21:39.660 Dead comic and by extension, the TV show Millions 00:21:39.660 --> 00:21:44.029 back in 2005. What was the specific claim? About 00:21:44.029 --> 00:21:46.470 how he was tricked. Moore claimed that Kirkman 00:21:46.470 --> 00:21:48.849 got him to surrender his co -creator rights in 00:21:48.849 --> 00:21:51.170 exchange for certain payments, payments which 00:21:51.170 --> 00:21:54.710 Moore alleged never fully materialized or weren't 00:21:54.710 --> 00:21:57.410 what was promised. Basically, the accusation 00:21:57.410 --> 00:21:59.490 was that Kirkman took advantage when the project 00:21:59.490 --> 00:22:01.670 was young, before anyone knew it would be this 00:22:01.670 --> 00:22:04.809 big. That's a serious allegation. How did Kirkman 00:22:04.809 --> 00:22:06.890 respond? Kirkman's side was that the contracts 00:22:06.890 --> 00:22:09.700 were totally legitimate. that Moore was misrepresenting 00:22:09.700 --> 00:22:12.460 things. He countersued, and his public statements 00:22:12.460 --> 00:22:14.579 basically said, look, we both had lawyers seven 00:22:14.579 --> 00:22:16.859 years ago. Moore initiated and approved this 00:22:16.859 --> 00:22:19.740 contract, and now he's trying to break it. Kirkman 00:22:19.740 --> 00:22:22.039 also argued Moore was paid fairly and continues 00:22:22.039 --> 00:22:24.440 to be paid for his contributions. It got pretty 00:22:24.440 --> 00:22:26.920 messy, played out in the press. It did. Showed 00:22:26.920 --> 00:22:29.660 the harsh side of creator -owned success. When 00:22:29.660 --> 00:22:31.740 the stakes get that high, friendships and partnerships 00:22:31.740 --> 00:22:34.019 can get strained by the financial pressures and 00:22:34.019 --> 00:22:36.680 legal complexities. But it resolved fairly quickly 00:22:36.680 --> 00:22:38.930 in the end. Yes. Surprisingly fast, actually. 00:22:38.930 --> 00:22:41.670 Within a few months, by September 2012, they 00:22:41.670 --> 00:22:44.170 put out a joint statement. Said they'd reached 00:22:44.170 --> 00:22:46.569 a settlement to everyone's mutual satisfaction. 00:22:46.970 --> 00:22:49.549 The terms weren't public. Nope. Confidential. 00:22:49.569 --> 00:22:52.730 As these things usually are. But the whole episode 00:22:52.730 --> 00:22:55.470 really underscores that navigating rights, ownership, 00:22:55.869 --> 00:22:59.269 contracts, it's just a fundamental, unavoidable 00:22:59.269 --> 00:23:02.470 part of being a major creator in the multimedia 00:23:02.470 --> 00:23:05.390 age. Okay. Shifting gears to something less fraught. 00:23:05.710 --> 00:23:08.390 A personal note, Kirkman didn't always live in 00:23:08.390 --> 00:23:10.970 L .A., right? No, he and his wife and son were 00:23:10.970 --> 00:23:14.170 based in Kentucky for years until 2011. And 2011 00:23:14.170 --> 00:23:16.930 is right when the Walking Dead TV show is exploding. 00:23:17.390 --> 00:23:19.569 Skybound is really getting established. Exactly. 00:23:19.750 --> 00:23:22.529 That year, they made the move. Relocated the 00:23:22.529 --> 00:23:24.470 whole family to Los Angeles. Which feels like 00:23:24.470 --> 00:23:26.269 more than just a change of address. It's like 00:23:26.269 --> 00:23:29.750 cementing that shift in identity. Yeah, moving 00:23:29.750 --> 00:23:33.369 from comic book writer in Kentucky to... Major 00:23:33.369 --> 00:23:35.630 player in the entertainment industry, right there 00:23:35.630 --> 00:23:38.789 in the heart of it all in LA. A strategic move, 00:23:38.950 --> 00:23:41.529 you could say, mirroring his professional ascent. 00:23:42.089 --> 00:23:44.549 And Kirkman's impact, it's not just measured 00:23:44.549 --> 00:23:47.329 in deals and dollars, it's reflected in the awards 00:23:47.329 --> 00:23:49.430 and recognition he and his projects have racked 00:23:49.430 --> 00:23:51.789 up. He's gotten some significant individual honors. 00:23:52.410 --> 00:23:55.190 Like the Inkpot Award in 2012. Right. The Inkpot's 00:23:55.190 --> 00:23:57.970 a big deal in the comics and genre world, recognizes 00:23:57.970 --> 00:24:01.349 major contributions. But maybe more telling was 00:24:01.349 --> 00:24:04.009 that Special Innovator Award he got at the Saturn 00:24:04.009 --> 00:24:07.730 Awards, also in 2012. Yeah, because that one 00:24:07.730 --> 00:24:10.259 wasn't just for writing comics. The Saturn Awards 00:24:10.259 --> 00:24:12.859 specifically cited his work adapting his comics 00:24:12.859 --> 00:24:15.420 to the screen and serving as executive producer 00:24:15.420 --> 00:24:18.220 on The Walking Dead. It explicitly recognized 00:24:18.220 --> 00:24:20.839 that bridge he built between comics and TV film 00:24:20.839 --> 00:24:23.259 production. Validating that whole strategy. Exactly. 00:24:23.319 --> 00:24:26.680 And his reputation is global, too. In 2020, he 00:24:26.680 --> 00:24:29.319 got the Faux of Donner, basically a lifetime 00:24:29.319 --> 00:24:31.640 achievement award at the Angoulême International 00:24:31.640 --> 00:24:34.240 Comics Festival in France. That's arguably the 00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:35.980 most prestigious comics festival in the world. 00:24:36.119 --> 00:24:38.759 But the biggest cultural splash, you have to 00:24:38.759 --> 00:24:41.400 say, came from The Walking Dead TV show's success. 00:24:41.619 --> 00:24:44.240 Oh, for sure. I mean, critically, it was huge 00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:47.599 early on. The American Film Institute, AFI, named 00:24:47.599 --> 00:24:50.190 it Television Program of the Year. Not just once, 00:24:50.269 --> 00:24:53.390 but twice. 2010 and 2012. And technically, the 00:24:53.390 --> 00:24:55.430 show delivered on his vision, too. Right. The 00:24:55.430 --> 00:24:58.400 look and feel. Totally. It won two Emmys back 00:24:58.400 --> 00:25:01.519 to back in 2011 and 2012 for outstanding prosthetic 00:25:01.519 --> 00:25:03.440 makeup. That's for making those zombies look 00:25:03.440 --> 00:25:06.859 so horrifically real. That award shows the quality 00:25:06.859 --> 00:25:09.779 of execution. Plus major nominations. Yeah. Nominated 00:25:09.779 --> 00:25:11.920 for Best Television Series Drama by both the 00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:13.660 Writers Guild of America and the Golden Globes 00:25:13.660 --> 00:25:16.740 in 2011. That means his indie horror comic adaptation 00:25:16.740 --> 00:25:18.900 was competing head to head with the biggest, 00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:21.880 most acclaimed dramas on TV. Just incredible 00:25:21.880 --> 00:25:25.240 reach. And to wrap up his bibliography, it's 00:25:25.240 --> 00:25:27.690 important to stress. He didn't just rely on Walking 00:25:27.690 --> 00:25:30.910 Dead and Invincible. He kept creating other long 00:25:30.910 --> 00:25:32.990 -running series. Absolutely. He's a workhorse. 00:25:33.150 --> 00:25:35.369 It's not just about landing two home runs. He 00:25:35.369 --> 00:25:37.910 consistently built other properties for Skybound's 00:25:37.910 --> 00:25:41.029 future. Outkast ran for a healthy 48 issues. 00:25:41.250 --> 00:25:44.519 Oblivion song. 36 issues. His martial arts series 00:25:44.519 --> 00:25:47.380 with Chris Samney, Firepower, just wrapped up 00:25:47.380 --> 00:25:49.900 its planned run after 30 issues. So he's constantly 00:25:49.900 --> 00:25:52.460 developing new IP, keeping that pipeline full. 00:25:52.680 --> 00:25:54.920 It shows he didn't just get lucky with one or 00:25:54.920 --> 00:25:57.480 two hits in coast. Not at all. It's a long -term 00:25:57.480 --> 00:26:00.740 strategy of creation and cultivation. Always 00:26:00.740 --> 00:26:02.720 building the next thing, ready for adaptation. 00:26:03.400 --> 00:26:05.640 Okay, so let's try and synthesize all this. We 00:26:05.640 --> 00:26:07.900 followed Robert Kirkman's whole journey. What's 00:26:07.900 --> 00:26:10.880 the big takeaway here for you listening? What 00:26:10.880 --> 00:26:12.950 does his story tell you? Tell us about building 00:26:12.950 --> 00:26:14.950 creative success today. I think the takeaway 00:26:14.950 --> 00:26:18.269 is it's actually pretty straightforward, but 00:26:18.269 --> 00:26:20.710 incredibly hard to pull off. Kirkman's career 00:26:20.710 --> 00:26:23.509 is basically the modern blueprint for how a creator 00:26:23.509 --> 00:26:26.079 can achieve. like total creative and financial 00:26:26.079 --> 00:26:28.680 control in today's media world. Going from that 00:26:28.680 --> 00:26:31.019 self -published satire, Battle Pope. Right, to 00:26:31.019 --> 00:26:34.279 being a partner and COO at Image and running 00:26:34.279 --> 00:26:36.779 this sprawling global company, Skybound, that 00:26:36.779 --> 00:26:39.299 manages his empire. He proved beyond any doubt 00:26:39.299 --> 00:26:41.960 that original creator -owned ideas can have massive, 00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:44.740 enduring cultural impact. They can compete directly 00:26:44.740 --> 00:26:46.619 with the biggest corporate -owned characters 00:26:46.619 --> 00:26:48.740 out there. He didn't just write a great comic. 00:26:48.920 --> 00:26:51.380 He built the whole system around it to protect 00:26:51.380 --> 00:26:54.539 it, to control it. to make sure the rewards flowed 00:26:54.539 --> 00:26:57.420 back to the source. That's the crux of it. For 00:26:57.420 --> 00:27:00.259 you listening, the lesson is maybe that creative 00:27:00.259 --> 00:27:03.059 leverage. It often boils down to the fine print 00:27:03.059 --> 00:27:05.759 in the contract and the absolute commitment to 00:27:05.759 --> 00:27:08.980 owning your work. That invincible rights reversion 00:27:08.980 --> 00:27:12.140 story is key there. Exactly. Learning that lesson 00:27:12.140 --> 00:27:14.599 that you need safeguards against studio inertia 00:27:14.599 --> 00:27:17.680 or control, that's what fueled the creation of 00:27:17.680 --> 00:27:19.779 Skybound. That control is the difference between 00:27:19.779 --> 00:27:22.579 having a hit comic and having a self -sustaining 00:27:22.579 --> 00:27:24.819 multi -billion dollar media franchise that you 00:27:24.819 --> 00:27:27.440 steer. Which brings us perfectly to our final 00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:30.460 provocative thought for you to mull over. Something 00:27:30.460 --> 00:27:33.039 that connects his early struggles right up to 00:27:33.039 --> 00:27:35.700 his current status. Think about that Energon 00:27:35.700 --> 00:27:38.339 Universe deal. Yeah, really chew on this trajectory. 00:27:38.660 --> 00:27:41.160 The guy who had to literally make up an alien 00:27:41.160 --> 00:27:44.039 invasion story just to get his zombie comic published 00:27:44.039 --> 00:27:46.779 is now the head of the company that Hasbro, a 00:27:46.779 --> 00:27:48.940 giant corporation, has entrusted with the comic 00:27:48.940 --> 00:27:52.059 book futures of Transformers and G .I. Joe. These 00:27:52.059 --> 00:27:54.400 aren't just comics. They're massive, global, 00:27:54.599 --> 00:27:57.299 multi -generational brands. So the question is, 00:27:57.400 --> 00:27:59.980 does this represent the ultimate win for the 00:27:59.980 --> 00:28:03.700 creator -owned model? Is it proof that the independent 00:28:03.700 --> 00:28:06.799 spirit, the success validated by walking dead 00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:10.220 and invincible, is now seen as the best, maybe 00:28:10.220 --> 00:28:13.269 even the safest? place to handle these huge legacy 00:28:13.269 --> 00:28:15.950 properties. Does it suggest that the real innovation, 00:28:16.210 --> 00:28:18.490 the smartest strategic thinking in comics today, 00:28:18.650 --> 00:28:21.250 has actually shifted, moved away from the traditional 00:28:21.250 --> 00:28:24.289 corporate giants and landed firmly with the creators, 00:28:24.369 --> 00:28:27.390 like Kirkman, who fought for and maintained control 00:28:27.390 --> 00:28:30.109 from the very start? It really feels like a monumental 00:28:30.109 --> 00:28:32.309 shift in the landscape. Something to think about 00:28:32.309 --> 00:28:33.789 next time you're looking at the credits page 00:28:33.789 --> 00:28:35.950 of a comic. Definitely. A huge thank you for 00:28:35.950 --> 00:28:38.190 joining us for this deep dive into the rise and 00:28:38.190 --> 00:28:39.769 reign of Robert Kirkman.