WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.279 Welcome to the Deep Dive, where we really get 00:00:02.279 --> 00:00:04.419 into the sources. Today we're tackling someone 00:00:04.419 --> 00:00:06.919 you've definitely seen, heard, or read. John 00:00:06.919 --> 00:00:09.900 Hodgman, a guy who seems to be everywhere. He 00:00:09.900 --> 00:00:12.660 really is, and the sources we've gathered paint 00:00:12.660 --> 00:00:15.740 this fascinating picture. Almost a contradiction, 00:00:16.019 --> 00:00:18.730 right? He's known for, well, making things up, 00:00:18.730 --> 00:00:21.969 but he's built this incredibly solid multi -platform 00:00:21.969 --> 00:00:25.870 career. Exactly. So our mission for this deep 00:00:25.870 --> 00:00:28.670 dive is to figure out how that happened. How 00:00:28.670 --> 00:00:31.289 does someone start out as a serious literary 00:00:31.289 --> 00:00:33.770 agent, you know, deep in the book world, and 00:00:33.770 --> 00:00:37.310 end up as this meta -humor personality, the expert 00:00:37.310 --> 00:00:39.250 on things that aren't real? Right. We're trying 00:00:39.250 --> 00:00:41.130 to find that through line. What connects the 00:00:41.130 --> 00:00:43.859 PC guy adds to... The best -selling books, the 00:00:43.859 --> 00:00:46.460 podcast judge, the voice acting, all of it. We 00:00:46.460 --> 00:00:48.259 want to pinpoint those moments where it clicks. 00:00:48.399 --> 00:00:50.619 Yeah, those aha moments for you, the listener. 00:00:50.840 --> 00:00:52.939 And maybe the bigger point here is the irony. 00:00:53.200 --> 00:00:55.979 He got famous dealing in fake facts and absurdity. 00:00:56.259 --> 00:00:58.960 Yet that somehow led to real sustained success. 00:00:59.679 --> 00:01:02.219 And you could argue a kind of genuine authority 00:01:02.219 --> 00:01:04.420 in comedy and storytelling. It really makes you 00:01:04.420 --> 00:01:06.719 think about expertise itself. Okay, so let's 00:01:06.719 --> 00:01:08.359 dig in. To really get the joke, you have to start 00:01:08.359 --> 00:01:10.480 before the joke, right? Back to the beginning. 00:01:11.450 --> 00:01:15.989 John Kellogg Hodgman, born June 3, 1971, Brookline, 00:01:16.049 --> 00:01:19.349 Massachusetts. So he's 54 now, based on our source 00:01:19.349 --> 00:01:21.489 date. And that Brookline setting, that Boston 00:01:21.489 --> 00:01:24.189 area, it's pretty academic. The sources point 00:01:24.189 --> 00:01:27.230 to his family background being quite formative. 00:01:27.329 --> 00:01:31.549 How so? Well, his mother, Eileen Callahan, she 00:01:31.549 --> 00:01:34.560 was a nurse and an educator. Practical. Grounded. 00:01:34.599 --> 00:01:37.140 But his father, John Francis Hodgman, he was 00:01:37.140 --> 00:01:38.959 CEO of the Massachusetts Technology Development 00:01:38.959 --> 00:01:42.459 Corporation and a professor at Tufts. Ah, OK. 00:01:42.560 --> 00:01:45.519 So you've got this mix of like. real -world application 00:01:45.519 --> 00:01:48.359 and high -level academia and business. Precisely. 00:01:48.359 --> 00:01:50.340 It's not just, you know, a comfortable background. 00:01:50.480 --> 00:01:52.959 It's one steeped in thinking, in systems, in 00:01:52.959 --> 00:01:55.439 education. And you see that influence early on. 00:01:55.519 --> 00:01:57.540 He went to Heath School, then Brookline High, 00:01:57.700 --> 00:02:00.060 but it wasn't just about showing up for class. 00:02:00.280 --> 00:02:02.540 No, definitely not. The sources highlight something 00:02:02.540 --> 00:02:05.400 really telling from high school. He edited an 00:02:05.400 --> 00:02:07.840 underground magazine, which, okay, lots of bright 00:02:07.840 --> 00:02:10.800 kids do that. The name. The name, Simizdat. Right. 00:02:11.039 --> 00:02:13.659 Explain that for people who might not know. Simizdat. 00:02:14.090 --> 00:02:17.110 was the term for this incredibly brave grassroots 00:02:17.110 --> 00:02:19.629 movement in the Soviet bloc where people would 00:02:19.629 --> 00:02:22.210 self -publish and secretly circulate writing 00:02:22.210 --> 00:02:24.250 that was banned by the government. Dissident 00:02:24.250 --> 00:02:26.969 literature. So here's this kid in suburban Boston 00:02:26.969 --> 00:02:31.009 naming his high school zine after this very specific, 00:02:31.210 --> 00:02:36.189 very serious act of political and literary defiance 00:02:36.189 --> 00:02:38.389 from behind the Iron Curtain. It's fantastic, 00:02:38.650 --> 00:02:40.830 isn't it? It's such an early sign of his whole 00:02:40.830 --> 00:02:43.409 deal. Taking something obscure, intellectual, 00:02:43.729 --> 00:02:46.349 maybe even a bit pretentious, and using it for 00:02:46.349 --> 00:02:49.870 humor. Claiming this mantle of subversion for, 00:02:49.990 --> 00:02:51.810 you know, probably complaining about the cafeteria 00:02:51.810 --> 00:02:54.050 food. It's that high -low mix that met a commentary 00:02:54.050 --> 00:02:56.030 right from the start. Absolutely. And he wasn't 00:02:56.030 --> 00:02:58.349 just writing. He was already doing audio. Senior 00:02:58.349 --> 00:03:00.430 year of high school, he hosted Radio Consuelo 00:03:00.430 --> 00:03:03.969 on WMFO in Medford, a free -form station. So... 00:03:04.189 --> 00:03:06.129 Shaping content with just his voice, finding 00:03:06.129 --> 00:03:08.370 that persona, even back then. Yeah. Laying the 00:03:08.370 --> 00:03:10.069 groundwork. And that leads right into Yale. He 00:03:10.069 --> 00:03:13.449 graduates in 94, literature degree. But critically, 00:03:13.650 --> 00:03:15.849 the sources emphasize his focus was literary 00:03:15.849 --> 00:03:17.969 criticism. Not just reading books, but taking 00:03:17.969 --> 00:03:21.889 them apart. Exactly. Literary criticism teaches 00:03:21.889 --> 00:03:25.590 you structure, rhetoric, how authors build authority, 00:03:25.830 --> 00:03:29.569 how narrative works, or how it fails. It's analytical 00:03:29.569 --> 00:03:32.210 boot camp, which I imagine is pretty useful if 00:03:32.210 --> 00:03:33.830 you later decide to build your own fictional 00:03:33.830 --> 00:03:36.430 worlds that pretend to have authority. It's essential. 00:03:36.710 --> 00:03:39.270 Yeah. Without that training, the later stuff, 00:03:39.289 --> 00:03:42.379 the almanacs, they could just be like. random 00:03:42.379 --> 00:03:44.780 silliness yeah but because he understands the 00:03:44.780 --> 00:03:47.599 mechanics of authoritative writing his satire 00:03:47.599 --> 00:03:51.020 is structured detailed almost believable in its 00:03:51.020 --> 00:03:52.939 absurdity okay but here's the twist most people 00:03:52.939 --> 00:03:55.740 miss before the fake expert he was a real expert 00:03:55.740 --> 00:03:58.120 or at least a real professional in a related 00:03:58.120 --> 00:04:01.759 field his first major job literary agent right 00:04:01.759 --> 00:04:04.120 at writer's house in new york And not just fetching 00:04:04.120 --> 00:04:06.360 coffee. He was a professional literary agent 00:04:06.360 --> 00:04:09.139 representing actual authors. Like who? People 00:04:09.139 --> 00:04:11.620 like Darren Strauss, Deborah Diggs. Oh, and actor 00:04:11.620 --> 00:04:13.900 Bruce Campbell. Bruce Campbell. Wow. OK, so he 00:04:13.900 --> 00:04:16.360 was deep inside the publishing machine. Contracts, 00:04:16.360 --> 00:04:18.680 pitches, rejections, the whole game. Think about 00:04:18.680 --> 00:04:21.199 the insider knowledge that gives you. The jargon, 00:04:21.220 --> 00:04:23.420 the anxieties, the weird power dynamics of the 00:04:23.420 --> 00:04:25.600 author -agent -publisher triangle. He saw it 00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:28.160 all. He was a gatekeeper of stories. A genuine 00:04:28.160 --> 00:04:30.680 gatekeeper. And then what does he do with this 00:04:30.680 --> 00:04:34.019 very specific, very niche professional experience? 00:04:34.399 --> 00:04:37.399 He turns it into comedy. Immediately. Yeah. He 00:04:37.399 --> 00:04:39.420 mines it for his column at McSweeney's Internet 00:04:39.420 --> 00:04:42.459 Tendency. Ask a former professional literary 00:04:42.459 --> 00:04:45.379 agent. Huh. Perfect. So he takes the kind of 00:04:45.379 --> 00:04:47.360 insider stuff that nobody else would get, all 00:04:47.360 --> 00:04:50.120 the weird details, and makes it funny, relatable, 00:04:50.439 --> 00:04:53.000 self -aware. That's the first big synthesis, 00:04:53.120 --> 00:04:55.819 isn't it? Taking real earned authority in one 00:04:55.819 --> 00:04:58.180 field and twisting it into satire in another. 00:04:58.379 --> 00:05:00.699 It gave him that believable voice. He could sound 00:05:00.699 --> 00:05:02.779 convincing because he had been convincing in 00:05:02.779 --> 00:05:05.699 a serious role. Exactly. That foundation of literary 00:05:05.699 --> 00:05:08.279 world authenticity makes the leap into total 00:05:08.279 --> 00:05:11.180 absurdity work. It makes it funny, not just random. 00:05:11.500 --> 00:05:13.620 Okay, so that leap. Let's talk about the almanacs. 00:05:13.720 --> 00:05:16.240 This is where the fake expert persona really 00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:18.259 takes shape. The Aries of My Expertise comes 00:05:18.259 --> 00:05:21.660 out in 2005. And the concept is just. It's brilliant 00:05:21.660 --> 00:05:24.740 in its commitment. satirical almanac full of 00:05:24.740 --> 00:05:27.540 information except almost none of it is true 00:05:27.540 --> 00:05:30.660 right it's meticulously crafted misinformation 00:05:30.660 --> 00:05:34.259 it wasn't just like a few funny lists it was 00:05:34.259 --> 00:05:38.279 this whole dense interconnected fictional universe 00:05:38.279 --> 00:05:41.360 presented as fact he even did an audiobook version 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:43.899 reading it with this deadpan educational tone 00:05:43.899 --> 00:05:46.100 and the details were incredible the famous one 00:05:46.100 --> 00:05:50.360 the list of 700 hobo names yes john stewart picked 00:05:50.360 --> 00:05:52.660 up on that later these weren't real historical 00:05:52.660 --> 00:05:55.819 names hodgman invented 700 of them each with 00:05:55.819 --> 00:05:58.339 this perfect slightly tragic authentic sounding 00:05:58.339 --> 00:06:01.089 ring Who does that level of detail, that commitment 00:06:01.089 --> 00:06:03.550 to the bit? That's what elevates it. That's the 00:06:03.550 --> 00:06:05.709 key insight, I think, for you listening. This 00:06:05.709 --> 00:06:07.970 wasn't lazy humor. It was high effort fabrication. 00:06:08.430 --> 00:06:10.490 He followed it up with more information than 00:06:10.490 --> 00:06:13.389 you require in 2008. And that is all in 2011. 00:06:13.649 --> 00:06:16.189 The trilogy of fake knowledge. And view together. 00:06:16.730 --> 00:06:18.490 It's his amazing commentary on the information 00:06:18.490 --> 00:06:20.930 age, right? It's burying you in facts, details, 00:06:21.149 --> 00:06:23.310 list charts. But they're all nonsense. It's like 00:06:23.310 --> 00:06:25.589 he's mocking our obsession with data with knowing 00:06:25.589 --> 00:06:28.069 trivia. It's like he's saying, I can be the ultimate 00:06:28.069 --> 00:06:30.410 expert just by sounding like one and overwhelming 00:06:30.410 --> 00:06:33.389 you with sheer volume, confidence over accuracy. 00:06:33.949 --> 00:06:36.290 Totally. And the thing that blasted this whole 00:06:36.290 --> 00:06:39.050 concept into the mainstream was The Daily Show. 00:06:39.430 --> 00:06:43.110 His first appearance was November 16, 2005, to 00:06:43.110 --> 00:06:45.189 promote that first book. And Jon Stewart got 00:06:45.189 --> 00:06:47.790 it immediately. called the book very funny, and 00:06:47.790 --> 00:06:50.509 that hobo name section a certain kind of genius. 00:06:50.910 --> 00:06:53.790 That's huge. Stewart's endorsement basically 00:06:53.790 --> 00:06:57.250 told his massive audience, yes, this weird, nerdy, 00:06:57.269 --> 00:06:59.350 high -concept joke is actually brilliant. You're 00:06:59.350 --> 00:07:01.250 allowed to find this funny. And it wasn't just 00:07:01.250 --> 00:07:03.870 a one -off appearance. Oh, no. That kicked off 00:07:03.870 --> 00:07:05.910 a nine -year run. He became a regular contributor. 00:07:06.029 --> 00:07:09.069 The resident expert appeared 73 times between 00:07:09.069 --> 00:07:13.389 2006 and 2015. Wow, 73 episodes. Yeah. That's 00:07:13.389 --> 00:07:16.319 where he really honed the public persona. The 00:07:16.319 --> 00:07:18.740 glasses, the slightly awkward suit, the absolute 00:07:18.740 --> 00:07:20.879 deadpan delivery of the most bizarre statements, 00:07:21.040 --> 00:07:23.339 the eccentric authority figure. And that persona 00:07:23.339 --> 00:07:25.600 started popping up elsewhere, right? Collaborations. 00:07:25.600 --> 00:07:28.019 Definitely. It bled into music, especially with 00:07:28.019 --> 00:07:31.019 They Might Be Giants. In 2005, he played the 00:07:31.019 --> 00:07:33.500 deranged millionaire on their venue songs project. 00:07:33.639 --> 00:07:35.860 He did these spoken word bits between songs, 00:07:35.920 --> 00:07:37.699 dialogue. He actually co -wrote with the band. 00:07:37.879 --> 00:07:40.860 The deranged millionaire. Another perfect Hodgman 00:07:40.860 --> 00:07:42.860 character name. And what's cool is how these 00:07:42.860 --> 00:07:45.600 things connected. That character. born from the 00:07:45.600 --> 00:07:48.379 TMBG project, later shows up on The Daily Show 00:07:48.379 --> 00:07:52.220 in 2014. He even performed live with TMBG on 00:07:52.220 --> 00:07:54.839 Craig Ferguson's show in 2009. So his fictional 00:07:54.839 --> 00:07:57.220 creations had legs. They could move between platforms. 00:07:57.540 --> 00:07:59.300 Yeah, they had narrative weight, consistency, 00:07:59.660 --> 00:08:03.040 and speaking of music collaborations, you absolutely 00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:06.319 have to mention Jonathan Colton. Ah, the song. 00:08:06.519 --> 00:08:09.509 Furry Old Lobster. based entirely on one of Hodgman's 00:08:09.509 --> 00:08:12.790 elaborate, completely made up and touchingly 00:08:12.790 --> 00:08:15.550 sad stories from his books about this fictional 00:08:15.550 --> 00:08:18.170 species of extinct furry lobsters. I remember 00:08:18.170 --> 00:08:21.029 reading that. It feels so plausible in its melancholy 00:08:21.029 --> 00:08:23.670 weirdness. And that's the formula crystallizing, 00:08:23.670 --> 00:08:26.730 right? Hodgman, the intellectual, invents a ridiculous 00:08:26.730 --> 00:08:29.269 but detailed tragedy. He delivers it with utter 00:08:29.269 --> 00:08:31.689 conviction. Then other talented artists like 00:08:31.689 --> 00:08:34.090 Colton treat the fabrication completely seriously, 00:08:34.409 --> 00:08:36.909 giving it real emotional resonance through music. 00:08:37.129 --> 00:08:39.909 It's this wonderful self -reinforcing cycle of 00:08:39.909 --> 00:08:42.750 meta comedy. OK, so he's built this cult following 00:08:42.750 --> 00:08:45.309 this respected niche in comedy and literature. 00:08:45.389 --> 00:08:49.070 But then comes the explosion into true mainstream 00:08:49.070 --> 00:08:52.129 ubiquity. The thing everyone knows him for, even 00:08:52.129 --> 00:08:55.289 if they don't know his name. The Apple ads. The 00:08:55.289 --> 00:08:59.490 Get a Mac campaign. May. 2006 to 2010, just massive. 00:08:59.570 --> 00:09:02.350 He was the PC. The personification of it. Yeah. 00:09:02.509 --> 00:09:05.870 Stuffy, awkward, prone to viruses, always slightly 00:09:05.870 --> 00:09:08.549 behind the curve. Standing next to Justin Long's 00:09:08.549 --> 00:09:11.389 cool, effortless Mac, Hodgman just nailed that 00:09:11.389 --> 00:09:13.850 character, the corporate drone. Defensive, but 00:09:13.850 --> 00:09:16.799 resigned. But wait, we have to stop here. Because 00:09:16.799 --> 00:09:18.820 the sources give us the punchline to the entire 00:09:18.820 --> 00:09:21.360 campaign. The ultimate irony. Oh, it's beautiful. 00:09:21.620 --> 00:09:24.639 He spent four years as the face of the PC. And 00:09:24.639 --> 00:09:27.000 John Hodgman himself. Had been a Mac user since 00:09:27.000 --> 00:09:30.019 1984. Since 1984. He wasn't just playing a role. 00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:32.220 He was playing the opposite of himself, embodying 00:09:32.220 --> 00:09:34.600 the tech he'd abandoned decades earlier. It's 00:09:34.600 --> 00:09:37.500 just perfect. It speaks volumes about his commitment 00:09:37.500 --> 00:09:41.139 to the bit, his acting chops, and maybe his understanding 00:09:41.139 --> 00:09:44.559 of satire. He was getting paid. very well, I 00:09:44.559 --> 00:09:46.820 assume, to be the butt of the joke about a product 00:09:46.820 --> 00:09:49.679 he didn't even use. And that role just stuck. 00:09:50.220 --> 00:09:53.679 Years later, November 2020, Apple has this virtual 00:09:53.679 --> 00:09:57.720 event. And who makes a surprise cameo? Him. Briefly 00:09:57.720 --> 00:10:00.139 reprising the PC character showed that that role 00:10:00.139 --> 00:10:02.240 wasn't just an ad campaign. It was like part 00:10:02.240 --> 00:10:04.559 of tech history, part of Apple's own story. So 00:10:04.559 --> 00:10:06.759 from that massive visibility, he branches out 00:10:06.759 --> 00:10:08.639 into more acting. And it's interesting to see 00:10:08.639 --> 00:10:10.919 the kinds of roles he gets. Yeah, these sources 00:10:10.919 --> 00:10:14.340 show this pattern. He's often typecast, but in 00:10:14.340 --> 00:10:16.360 a way that plays right into the persona he already 00:10:16.360 --> 00:10:18.899 built. The articulate, slightly odd professional 00:10:18.899 --> 00:10:21.899 type. Like, look at the range, but also the consistency. 00:10:22.779 --> 00:10:26.259 Sci -fi. He's Dr. Girard, a neurosurgeon in Battlestar 00:10:26.259 --> 00:10:28.259 Galactica. And the story behind that is great, 00:10:28.340 --> 00:10:30.840 too. He wasn't just cast. He'd visited the set 00:10:30.840 --> 00:10:33.139 in 2005 to write about the show for the New York 00:10:33.139 --> 00:10:36.019 Times Magazine. No way! Yeah. So he leveraged 00:10:36.019 --> 00:10:38.240 his writing gig, his journalistic access, into 00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:40.139 an acting role in one of the most acclaimed shows 00:10:40.139 --> 00:10:42.860 on TV. Talk about work in the angles. That's 00:10:42.860 --> 00:10:44.820 amazing. Okay, then comedy. Flight of the Conchords, 00:10:44.980 --> 00:10:46.960 he's a greeting card company manager. Perfect. 00:10:47.100 --> 00:10:49.179 And then eight episodes on Bored to Death playing 00:10:49.179 --> 00:10:51.539 Louis Green, a literary reviewer. Back to his 00:10:51.539 --> 00:10:53.639 roots again. Always circling back. And you see 00:10:53.639 --> 00:10:56.500 him playing doctors or experts constantly. A 00:10:56.500 --> 00:10:58.820 psychiatrist on Community. Dr. Heidi, right. 00:10:59.039 --> 00:11:02.019 In that curriculum unavailable episode. And some 00:11:02.019 --> 00:11:05.000 character named Terry on 30 Rock. These roles 00:11:05.000 --> 00:11:07.340 need someone who can deliver potentially absurd 00:11:07.340 --> 00:11:10.440 lines with total seriousness, total precision. 00:11:10.759 --> 00:11:14.379 Not broad comedy. He even did period drama. The 00:11:14.379 --> 00:11:16.600 Nick. Yeah, playing a version of Dr. Henry Cotton, 00:11:16.720 --> 00:11:19.299 the psychiatrist. For three episodes, he just 00:11:19.299 --> 00:11:22.039 fits that slightly stiff, historical, intellectual 00:11:22.039 --> 00:11:24.700 vibe. It's like his core persona is portable 00:11:24.700 --> 00:11:28.039 across genres and time periods. And networks 00:11:28.039 --> 00:11:30.299 started using him as that persona, not just as 00:11:30.299 --> 00:11:32.539 an actor playing a part, like doing color commentary 00:11:32.539 --> 00:11:34.960 for the Emmys in 2009 and 2010. Oh, right, where 00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:37.480 he'd just inject made -up trivia. Exactly. The 00:11:37.480 --> 00:11:40.470 joke is always the same. The delivery is authoritative. 00:11:40.649 --> 00:11:43.389 The information is bogus. It's performance art 00:11:43.389 --> 00:11:46.169 about expertise. And speaking of actual smarts, 00:11:46.169 --> 00:11:48.889 his appearance on the British panel show QI in 00:11:48.889 --> 00:11:52.009 2009. That was a great validation. QI is famously 00:11:52.009 --> 00:11:54.470 highbrow, rewards obscure knowledge. He was the 00:11:54.470 --> 00:11:56.529 first fifth panelist they ever had. And did he 00:11:56.529 --> 00:11:58.860 hold his own? He won. On his first appearance, 00:11:59.039 --> 00:12:01.360 it proved that underneath all the layers of irony 00:12:01.360 --> 00:12:04.340 and fake facts, there's a genuinely sharp, knowledgeable 00:12:04.340 --> 00:12:06.500 mind at work. Which makes sense, given the Yale 00:12:06.500 --> 00:12:08.139 background and everything else. Then there's 00:12:08.139 --> 00:12:09.820 the whole other universe of his voice acting. 00:12:09.940 --> 00:12:12.600 His voice is so distinctive. Instantly recognizable. 00:12:12.879 --> 00:12:16.200 That slightly nasal, very articulate, authoritative, 00:12:16.220 --> 00:12:19.139 but potentially anxious sound. Perfect for animation. 00:12:19.539 --> 00:12:22.360 He was the father, and the other father, in Coraline. 00:12:22.419 --> 00:12:25.120 Oh yeah, fantastic film. And a huge recurring 00:12:25.120 --> 00:12:28.289 role in The Venture Bros. using Snoopy, among 00:12:28.289 --> 00:12:30.950 others, across seven episodes, plus the movie 00:12:30.950 --> 00:12:33.789 that came out in 2023. He seems drawn to these 00:12:33.789 --> 00:12:36.590 projects with really dedicated cult followings. 00:12:36.649 --> 00:12:38.570 He does. He was John D. Rockerduck in The New 00:12:38.570 --> 00:12:40.870 Duck Tales, Billions in Kipo, and The Age of 00:12:40.870 --> 00:12:43.090 Wonder Beasts. Yeah. He did voice work for Minecraft, 00:12:43.409 --> 00:12:46.190 Story Mode back in 2015. Sorin the Architect. 00:12:46.570 --> 00:12:48.690 Right. And the latest source we have mentions 00:12:48.690 --> 00:12:51.690 him as Snobbiest Snee. Oh, what a name. Yeah. 00:12:51.769 --> 00:12:55.529 In the 2024 Star Wars Skeleton Crew series. Snobbiest 00:12:55.529 --> 00:12:58.580 Snee. Okay. That feels right. He's basically 00:12:58.580 --> 00:13:01.379 become the go -to voice for any character who 00:13:01.379 --> 00:13:04.820 is hyper -intelligent, maybe a bit nerdy, possibly 00:13:04.820 --> 00:13:09.220 villainous, across film, TV, games. Pretty much. 00:13:09.220 --> 00:13:11.460 If you need an articulate weirdo, he's your guy. 00:13:11.639 --> 00:13:14.740 So this brings us to what feels like the culmination 00:13:14.740 --> 00:13:17.440 of the fake expert persona but made functional. 00:13:18.200 --> 00:13:20.879 The Judge John Hodgman Podcast. Launched in 2010 00:13:20.879 --> 00:13:23.879 and still going strong. This is, I think, the 00:13:23.879 --> 00:13:25.779 ultimate evolution of everything we've talked 00:13:25.779 --> 00:13:27.899 about. How so? Well, it started small, just segments 00:13:27.899 --> 00:13:30.179 on another podcast, Jordan, Jesse, go. But it 00:13:30.179 --> 00:13:32.549 became its own thing. He takes that authoritative, 00:13:32.730 --> 00:13:35.330 slightly stiff persona he perfected, puts on 00:13:35.330 --> 00:13:37.509 the fictional judge robes. With Jesse Thorne 00:13:37.509 --> 00:13:39.429 as the bailiff. With Jesse Thorne as the essential 00:13:39.429 --> 00:13:42.070 bailiff in comedic foil. And they preside over 00:13:42.070 --> 00:13:44.750 a fake courtroom adjudicating real -life disputes 00:13:44.750 --> 00:13:47.110 submitted by listeners. And these disputes are 00:13:47.110 --> 00:13:49.669 often hilariously small stakes. Oh, perfectly 00:13:49.669 --> 00:13:52.029 mundane, like the example in our notes. Should 00:13:52.029 --> 00:13:54.330 the built -in kitchen sink dispenser have dish 00:13:54.330 --> 00:13:57.110 soap or hand soap? Or can my family please stop 00:13:57.110 --> 00:13:59.129 calling me by my embarrassing childhood nickname? 00:13:59.629 --> 00:14:02.399 Exactly. Yeah. But here's the genius. Hodgman 00:14:02.399 --> 00:14:05.320 treats these tiny conflicts with the utmost seriousness. 00:14:05.720 --> 00:14:09.179 He applies fake legal precedents, uses Latin 00:14:09.179 --> 00:14:11.740 phrases, delivers these incredibly detailed, 00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:14.840 often quite wise, but hilariously overwrought 00:14:14.840 --> 00:14:17.200 rulings. So he's using the performance of judicial 00:14:17.200 --> 00:14:20.220 authority to actually resolve real problems for 00:14:20.220 --> 00:14:22.779 people. Precisely. He's moved beyond just fabricating 00:14:22.779 --> 00:14:25.559 history or facts. Yes. He's fabricating judicial 00:14:25.559 --> 00:14:28.799 process to bring genuine, often funny closure 00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:31.500 to everyday disagreement. He's leveraging the 00:14:31.500 --> 00:14:35.159 fake expertise for a real, oddly helpful function. 00:14:35.320 --> 00:14:37.220 Before the podcast really became the central 00:14:37.220 --> 00:14:39.399 pillar, though, he did have that Netflix special. 00:14:39.440 --> 00:14:42.659 Right. John Hodgman. Ragnarok. Yeah. June 2013. 00:14:43.419 --> 00:14:45.240 Billed as a Netflix original, which was still 00:14:45.240 --> 00:14:46.779 kind of a new thing back then. And that drew 00:14:46.779 --> 00:14:49.220 from his book tour, right? For That Is All. Yeah, 00:14:49.240 --> 00:14:50.840 as a material mostly from that book and a live 00:14:50.840 --> 00:14:53.460 show he did in late 2012, it felt like a bridge 00:14:53.460 --> 00:14:56.179 capturing that specific moment where the Almanac 00:14:56.179 --> 00:14:58.539 era was ending and he was shifting towards something 00:14:58.539 --> 00:15:00.759 else. And part of that something else involved 00:15:00.759 --> 00:15:03.240 taking more creative control behind the scenes, 00:15:03.419 --> 00:15:05.679 like with the show Dicktown. Yeah, the animated 00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:08.279 series he co -created, writes, and executive 00:15:08.279 --> 00:15:11.100 produces with David Rees, premiered in 2020 on 00:15:11.100 --> 00:15:14.730 FXX, now on Hulu too. He voices the main character. 00:15:14.929 --> 00:15:18.889 John Hutchman, who is, surprise, surprise, a 00:15:18.889 --> 00:15:21.590 somewhat down on his luck, but highly intelligent 00:15:21.590 --> 00:15:23.710 private detective in a small town. Feels very 00:15:23.710 --> 00:15:26.629 on brand. Totally. It lets him play with detective 00:15:26.629 --> 00:15:29.750 tropes, genre satire, but still grounded in that 00:15:29.750 --> 00:15:32.830 familiar Hodgman -esque, intellectual, slightly 00:15:32.830 --> 00:15:35.940 melancholic. character type. It's him building 00:15:35.940 --> 00:15:37.960 his own narrative world as a showrunner. But 00:15:37.960 --> 00:15:39.799 maybe the biggest evolution in his own writing 00:15:39.799 --> 00:15:43.059 is the shift towards telling the truth. The memoirs. 00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:45.919 This feels like a really significant turn. After 00:15:45.919 --> 00:15:48.080 building a career on elaborate fictions presented 00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:50.220 as fact, he starts writing actual nonfiction 00:15:50.220 --> 00:15:52.879 about his own life. Vacationland, true stories 00:15:52.879 --> 00:15:55.559 from painful beaches in 2017. Right. Focused 00:15:55.559 --> 00:15:57.460 on his time in western Massachusetts and Maine. 00:15:57.759 --> 00:16:00.179 And the sources note, this wasn't just fluff. 00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:02.610 It was taken seriously. finalist for the Thurber 00:16:02.610 --> 00:16:05.750 Prize for American humor. So real literary recognition 00:16:05.750 --> 00:16:08.590 for his nonfiction. And then medallion status. 00:16:09.470 --> 00:16:13.269 True stories from secret rooms in 2019. It's 00:16:13.269 --> 00:16:15.490 like he realized the persona he'd crafted, that 00:16:15.490 --> 00:16:18.230 articulate, observant, slightly self -deprecating 00:16:18.230 --> 00:16:21.210 voice, was actually perfect for talking about 00:16:21.210 --> 00:16:24.429 his real life, his real anxieties, his observations 00:16:24.429 --> 00:16:27.549 about status and belonging. So he didn't abandon 00:16:27.549 --> 00:16:30.220 the voice, he just pointed inward. Exactly. He 00:16:30.220 --> 00:16:32.440 went from hiding behind fake facts to revealing 00:16:32.440 --> 00:16:35.019 himself, using the same sophisticated tools he'd 00:16:35.019 --> 00:16:37.200 always used. We should also quickly touch on 00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:39.840 that amazing moment of peak establishment recognition, 00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:43.700 but done his way. The Radio and Television Correspondents 00:16:43.700 --> 00:16:47.000 Association dinner speech in 2009. Ah, the nerd 00:16:47.000 --> 00:16:49.059 prom, as he called it. Right. He's the headline 00:16:49.059 --> 00:16:51.720 speaker in front of the president, all of D .C.'s 00:16:51.720 --> 00:16:53.879 media and political elite. And what does he do? 00:16:53.980 --> 00:16:56.480 He uses his platform to declare President Obama 00:16:56.480 --> 00:16:58.980 the first nerd president and then proceeds to 00:16:58.980 --> 00:17:02.120 quiz him live on his knowledge of Frank Herbert's 00:17:02.120 --> 00:17:04.599 Dune. It's brilliant. It's the ultimate Hodgman 00:17:04.599 --> 00:17:07.829 move. taking his niche, geeky knowledge right 00:17:07.829 --> 00:17:11.210 into the heart of power, using it to gently puncture 00:17:11.210 --> 00:17:13.890 the formality, but also as a weird kind of common 00:17:13.890 --> 00:17:16.849 ground. He's the translator between obscure nerd 00:17:16.849 --> 00:17:19.509 culture and the mainstream, even at the highest 00:17:19.509 --> 00:17:21.450 levels. Okay, let's pull back a bit and look 00:17:21.450 --> 00:17:23.809 at the sheer breadth of his contributions. He's 00:17:23.809 --> 00:17:26.609 just... Everywhere in media, especially audio. 00:17:26.829 --> 00:17:29.109 He really is. His adaptability is incredible. 00:17:29.430 --> 00:17:32.190 He's a perfect podcast guest because he can talk 00:17:32.190 --> 00:17:35.150 intelligently or humorously or both about almost 00:17:35.150 --> 00:17:38.130 anything. He slides easily from NPR shows like 00:17:38.130 --> 00:17:40.250 This American Life or Wait, Wait, Don't Tell 00:17:40.250 --> 00:17:42.769 Me. Which require real substance. To something 00:17:42.769 --> 00:17:45.890 like Neil deGrasse Tyson's StarTalk Radio, Talking 00:17:45.890 --> 00:17:47.930 Science or Stuff You Should Know, Diving Into 00:17:47.930 --> 00:17:50.809 Random History. His brand works across all these 00:17:50.809 --> 00:17:52.970 different levels of intellectual heft. And his 00:17:52.970 --> 00:17:54.769 connection to the podcasting world, especially 00:17:54.769 --> 00:17:57.150 the Maximum Fun Network, feels really foundational. 00:17:57.150 --> 00:17:59.029 Obviously, Judge John Hodgman came out of that, 00:17:59.089 --> 00:18:01.490 but also his guest spots on shows like My Brother, 00:18:01.529 --> 00:18:03.329 My Brother and Me. Yeah, he was definitely part 00:18:03.329 --> 00:18:06.609 of shaping that smart, literate, slightly nerdy 00:18:06.609 --> 00:18:10.410 style of indie comedy podcasting that became 00:18:10.410 --> 00:18:13.130 so huge. And his NPR connections are deep, too. 00:18:13.250 --> 00:18:16.190 The City Arts and Lectures events. One where 00:18:16.190 --> 00:18:18.289 he's interviewed by Dave Eggers, another where 00:18:18.289 --> 00:18:20.930 he's interviewing Adam Savage. That duality is 00:18:20.930 --> 00:18:23.579 important. He's respected enough to be the subject 00:18:23.579 --> 00:18:26.299 of a serious interview by a major author and 00:18:26.299 --> 00:18:28.579 also trusted enough to conduct a substantive 00:18:28.579 --> 00:18:31.819 interview with someone like Savage. It shows 00:18:31.819 --> 00:18:33.960 the genuine intellectual respect he commands 00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:37.000 beyond the comedy persona. Let's not forget the 00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:38.900 weirder corners like being a guest player on 00:18:38.900 --> 00:18:41.660 Harmon Quest. The sandwich sorcerer. The sandwich 00:18:41.660 --> 00:18:44.180 sorcerer. Perfect. Even in improvised fantasy 00:18:44.180 --> 00:18:46.720 role -playing, he finds his niche. And while 00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:49.130 he totally conquered digital audio, He never 00:18:49.130 --> 00:18:51.309 really left print behind. No, he kept a foot 00:18:51.309 --> 00:18:53.950 in that world. He oversaw the True Life Tales 00:18:53.950 --> 00:18:56.089 section for the New York Times Magazine for a 00:18:56.089 --> 00:18:58.910 while, curating short nonfiction observational 00:18:58.910 --> 00:19:01.190 pieces. But the current print gig feels like 00:19:01.190 --> 00:19:04.009 the most perfect synthesis of his entire career, 00:19:04.210 --> 00:19:07.730 writing the bonus advice from Judge John Hodgman 00:19:07.730 --> 00:19:10.829 piece that runs alongside Kwame Apia's The Ethicist 00:19:10.829 --> 00:19:13.670 column in the Times Magazine. It's genius pairing. 00:19:14.119 --> 00:19:16.839 You get Appiah, the actual philosopher, giving 00:19:16.839 --> 00:19:19.039 serious ethical advice. And then right next to 00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:21.740 it, you get Judge Hodgman applying his faux judicial 00:19:21.740 --> 00:19:25.000 wisdom to some related, probably much smaller 00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:28.700 dilemma. It's the entire Hodgman brand distilled, 00:19:28.720 --> 00:19:31.779 real expertise immediately followed and gently 00:19:31.779 --> 00:19:34.319 mocked by his pitch perfect imitation of expertise. 00:19:34.700 --> 00:19:36.619 And even the tech world acknowledged him in a 00:19:36.619 --> 00:19:39.160 big way early on. Getting the cover of Wired 00:19:39.160 --> 00:19:42.759 magazine in February 2007. Right. For their what 00:19:42.759 --> 00:19:45.099 we don't know about issue. The ultimate irony. 00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:47.880 The magazine about technology in the future featuring 00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:50.279 the guy whose expertise was based on fabrication. 00:19:50.740 --> 00:19:53.160 They got the joke. They understood his commentary 00:19:53.160 --> 00:19:55.460 on information was valuable. And his connections 00:19:55.460 --> 00:19:58.119 run into music, too, beyond the TMBG and Colton 00:19:58.119 --> 00:20:00.380 stuff. He's popped up on tracks with indie artists. 00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:02.940 Yeah, MC Frontalot's album Zero Day, Jean Grey 00:20:02.940 --> 00:20:05.279 and Quell. Chris's, everything's fine. He lends 00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:07.819 his voice to these projects. And the music videos, 00:20:08.039 --> 00:20:11.440 directed by Tom Sharpling, Ted Leo, the new pornographers, 00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:14.359 Amy Mann. He's like the Zillig figure in that 00:20:14.359 --> 00:20:17.539 specific intersection of indie music, smart comedy, 00:20:17.660 --> 00:20:19.440 and thoughtful writing. He connects those scenes. 00:20:19.640 --> 00:20:22.319 So, wrapping this up. Looking back at our mission, 00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:26.160 that aha moment feels like it's about transformation, 00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:29.519 right? He took real specialized knowledge from 00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:32.019 the literary world, turned it into this elaborate 00:20:32.019 --> 00:20:34.519 performance of fake knowledge for humor, and 00:20:34.519 --> 00:20:36.960 that performance became so convincing, so well 00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:39.339 -crafted, it circled back and gave him actual 00:20:39.339 --> 00:20:42.339 functional authority as a comedian, a writer, 00:20:42.519 --> 00:20:45.259 a judge, a showrunner. Yeah, it's all about synthesis. 00:20:45.420 --> 00:20:48.819 The PC guy, the judge, the memoirist. They all 00:20:48.819 --> 00:20:51.279 stem from his core ability he has to take details, 00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:53.279 whether they're real obscure facts or completely 00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:55.559 invented ones, and weave them into something 00:20:55.559 --> 00:20:57.779 funny, compelling, and surprisingly insightful. 00:20:58.329 --> 00:21:00.410 He's the ultimate learner who figured out that 00:21:00.410 --> 00:21:02.410 how you present knowledge in today's media could 00:21:02.410 --> 00:21:05.309 be just as powerful, maybe even more powerful 00:21:05.309 --> 00:21:07.390 than the knowledge itself. It wasn't just that 00:21:07.390 --> 00:21:09.869 he faked expertise. It was how he did it, with 00:21:09.869 --> 00:21:12.369 the rigor, the detail, the commitment you'd expect 00:21:12.369 --> 00:21:15.490 from a real expert. Exactly. The satire works 00:21:15.490 --> 00:21:17.990 because it mimics the form so perfectly. Yeah. 00:21:18.029 --> 00:21:19.990 He showed that great satire requires immense 00:21:19.990 --> 00:21:22.809 effort, maybe even more than the thing it's satirizing. 00:21:23.069 --> 00:21:25.069 Which leaves us with a final thought, something 00:21:25.069 --> 00:21:28.019 for you, the listener, to chew on. Given John 00:21:28.019 --> 00:21:30.799 Hodgman's incredible, undeniable success across 00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:33.819 basically all media, built largely on a foundation 00:21:33.819 --> 00:21:36.700 of pretending to know things, what does his career 00:21:36.700 --> 00:21:38.920 really tell us about what we value more today? 00:21:39.019 --> 00:21:41.759 Is it verifiable, accurate, specialized knowledge? 00:21:42.079 --> 00:21:44.779 Or is it the ability to craft a really engaging, 00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:46.960 authoritative -sounding story regardless of the 00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:47.460 facts underneath?