WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.759 Welcome back to The Deep Dive. Today, we're really 00:00:02.759 --> 00:00:05.580 getting into the weeds on one of American entertainment's 00:00:05.580 --> 00:00:09.419 most, let's say, paradoxical figures, Billy Bob 00:00:09.419 --> 00:00:11.419 Thornton. Yeah. I mean, this is the guy who, 00:00:11.480 --> 00:00:14.679 within maybe 10 years, wins an Oscar for writing, 00:00:14.859 --> 00:00:18.219 fronts a rock band, and gets famous for wearing 00:00:18.219 --> 00:00:20.859 blood in a locket. It's quite a mix. Exactly. 00:00:21.079 --> 00:00:23.980 Actor, filmmaker, musician, songwriter. He's 00:00:23.980 --> 00:00:26.519 a true multi -hyphenate. And when you dig into 00:00:26.519 --> 00:00:29.710 the sources, you see his personal life. Which, 00:00:29.829 --> 00:00:32.429 OK, yes, it made headlines, but it also directly 00:00:32.429 --> 00:00:35.170 feeds these incredibly memorable characters he 00:00:35.170 --> 00:00:37.109 plays, often pretty malicious ones, too. Right. 00:00:37.189 --> 00:00:39.329 So our mission today is really to sift through 00:00:39.329 --> 00:00:42.490 all that, the career paths, the personal stuff, 00:00:42.609 --> 00:00:45.070 and get a sense of the complex artist behind 00:00:45.070 --> 00:00:48.609 that famous drawl and maybe the notorious image. 00:00:48.829 --> 00:00:50.549 And that central paradox you mentioned is just 00:00:50.549 --> 00:00:52.649 so fascinating. Here's someone who very openly 00:00:52.649 --> 00:00:55.130 says he dislikes celebrity culture, tries to 00:00:55.130 --> 00:00:56.829 stay out of the limelight. Actively avoids it, 00:00:56.890 --> 00:00:59.939 yeah. Yet. He maintains this critically acclaimed 00:00:59.939 --> 00:01:03.079 career for decades. It's like he's the ultimate 00:01:03.079 --> 00:01:05.819 Hollywood outsider who somehow keeps ending up 00:01:05.819 --> 00:01:08.340 center stage, especially now with prestige TV. 00:01:08.519 --> 00:01:10.200 We're definitely going to track that whole journey, 00:01:10.299 --> 00:01:12.620 starting with, you know, his beginnings in Arkansas, 00:01:12.799 --> 00:01:15.840 which were pretty tough, really humble. Then 00:01:15.840 --> 00:01:18.799 we'll look at Slang Blade. That huge turning 00:01:18.799 --> 00:01:21.000 point where he basically created his own breakout 00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:23.700 moment. Yeah. Wrote himself into the game. Exactly. 00:01:24.019 --> 00:01:27.780 And how that success kind of led to a decade 00:01:27.780 --> 00:01:31.200 of being typecast, you know, culminating in Bad 00:01:31.200 --> 00:01:34.019 Santa, which was just like a cultural lightning 00:01:34.019 --> 00:01:37.200 rod. Oh, yeah. And importantly, we're to spend 00:01:37.200 --> 00:01:40.719 some real time on the. The specific details of 00:01:40.719 --> 00:01:42.799 his health, his diagnosed conditions, these severe 00:01:42.799 --> 00:01:45.299 phobias he has. Which sound kind of quirky, but 00:01:45.299 --> 00:01:47.519 they're not just quirks, are they? No, not at 00:01:47.519 --> 00:01:49.459 all. The sources suggest they're almost like 00:01:49.459 --> 00:01:51.579 blueprints for some of his most famous characters. 00:01:51.939 --> 00:01:55.459 Yeah. It's wild. So what we want you, the listener, 00:01:55.599 --> 00:01:58.359 to get from this deep dive is a really solid, 00:01:58.420 --> 00:02:00.579 detailed understanding of what makes this guy 00:02:00.579 --> 00:02:03.359 tick. You'll know the career milestones, sure, 00:02:03.519 --> 00:02:06.700 but you'll also understand why, say, a fear of 00:02:06.700 --> 00:02:09.150 antique French furniture might actually... inform 00:02:09.150 --> 00:02:11.590 his art. Yeah, it connects in surprising ways. 00:02:11.870 --> 00:02:14.430 Okay, let's untack this. Because to really get 00:02:14.430 --> 00:02:15.990 the artist, you have to start where he started. 00:02:16.370 --> 00:02:20.009 Before the Oscars, the fame, the marriages. Billy 00:02:20.009 --> 00:02:23.370 Bob Thornton, born August 4th, 1955, Hot Springs, 00:02:23.569 --> 00:02:26.270 Arkansas. And right away, his upbringing hints 00:02:26.270 --> 00:02:28.830 at that tension we see later. Totally. The family 00:02:28.830 --> 00:02:33.110 background is... Immediately interesting. His 00:02:33.110 --> 00:02:35.150 dad, William Raymond Thornton, Billy Ray. He 00:02:35.150 --> 00:02:36.750 was a high school history teacher, basketball 00:02:36.750 --> 00:02:38.669 coach. You know, a real pillar of that Southern 00:02:38.669 --> 00:02:41.210 small town life. Structured discipline. Right. 00:02:41.349 --> 00:02:43.689 But then his mom, Virginia Roberta Faulkner, 00:02:43.789 --> 00:02:46.330 she was a self -proclaimed psychic. Wow. So you've 00:02:46.330 --> 00:02:48.789 got the grounded coach on one hand and the, well, 00:02:48.849 --> 00:02:51.090 maybe the ethereal, the slightly strange influence 00:02:51.090 --> 00:02:53.650 on the other. That mix of the practical and the 00:02:53.650 --> 00:02:56.789 peculiar seems like baked into him from the start. 00:02:57.069 --> 00:02:59.090 And it wasn't like he grew up in one place. The 00:02:59.090 --> 00:03:02.509 family moved around a lot within Arkansas, Alpine, 00:03:02.789 --> 00:03:06.110 Malvern, Mount Holly. He was raised Methodist, 00:03:06.110 --> 00:03:08.409 went to Malvern High. But those early school 00:03:08.409 --> 00:03:11.289 years, they weren't easy. No, the source material 00:03:11.289 --> 00:03:13.849 is clear. He really struggled academically. And 00:03:13.849 --> 00:03:16.110 it turns out it was because of dyslexia. Ah. 00:03:16.509 --> 00:03:19.189 But here's the thing. It wasn't properly diagnosed 00:03:19.189 --> 00:03:23.189 until he was much, much older. So imagine going 00:03:23.189 --> 00:03:26.550 through school trying to learn, read, everything 00:03:26.550 --> 00:03:29.449 with this constant confusing hurdle that nobody's 00:03:29.449 --> 00:03:31.289 named yet. That's got to build some frustration. 00:03:31.349 --> 00:03:33.449 Absolutely. And on top of that, he almost went 00:03:33.449 --> 00:03:35.050 down a completely different path. He was actually 00:03:35.050 --> 00:03:36.750 a really good baseball player in high school. 00:03:36.909 --> 00:03:38.930 Yeah. Good enough to try out for the Kansas City 00:03:38.930 --> 00:03:42.490 Royals. A real shot. Yeah. An injury. Got that 00:03:42.490 --> 00:03:45.349 dream short. Yeah. So no pro baseball career. 00:03:45.650 --> 00:03:48.610 Man. So sports are out. School's a struggle. 00:03:49.479 --> 00:03:51.860 What happens then? Well, he graduates high school 00:03:51.860 --> 00:03:54.680 in 73, does a very brief stint at Henderson State 00:03:54.680 --> 00:03:57.520 University, studied psychology for like two semesters, 00:03:57.560 --> 00:04:00.080 then drops out. And that's when the really tough 00:04:00.080 --> 00:04:03.620 jobs started. The sources mention him laying 00:04:03.620 --> 00:04:05.879 asphalt for the Arkansas State Transportation 00:04:05.879 --> 00:04:09.840 Department. Laying asphalt in Arkansas. That's 00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:12.900 a world away from Hollywood. Gives you a sense 00:04:12.900 --> 00:04:15.000 of the grind. Absolutely. It's the kind of hard 00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:17.879 physical labor that either grounds you or makes 00:04:17.879 --> 00:04:19.779 you really desperate for something else. And 00:04:19.779 --> 00:04:23.040 he chose something else. Yeah. Mid 80s, he makes 00:04:23.040 --> 00:04:25.779 the big move to Los Angeles with Tom Epperson, 00:04:26.019 --> 00:04:28.620 his friend who became his writing partner. But, 00:04:28.680 --> 00:04:30.639 you know, moving to L .A. doesn't magically pay 00:04:30.639 --> 00:04:33.000 the bills. Right. The classic Hollywood struggle 00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:35.439 story. Totally. He was doing those soul crushing 00:04:35.439 --> 00:04:39.350 jobs just to survive while auditioning. Telemarketing, 00:04:39.350 --> 00:04:42.230 offshore wind farming, fast food management. 00:04:42.350 --> 00:04:44.490 I mean, these aren't just jobs. They're experiences 00:04:44.490 --> 00:04:46.589 that probably sharpen your eye for the absurd, 00:04:46.769 --> 00:04:49.089 maybe build up some cynicism. Sure. And it was 00:04:49.089 --> 00:04:51.050 during this time, right, that the famous Billy 00:04:51.050 --> 00:04:54.250 Wilder story happened. Yes. This anecdote feels 00:04:54.250 --> 00:04:56.329 absolutely pivotal. He's working as a waiter 00:04:56.329 --> 00:04:59.110 at some industry function, and he ends up serving 00:04:59.110 --> 00:05:02.629 Billy Wilder. The Billy Wilder. Sunset boulevards, 00:05:02.649 --> 00:05:06.089 some like it hot. The legend himself. And Vorton 00:05:06.089 --> 00:05:08.579 apparently gets up the nerve. to talk to him, 00:05:08.660 --> 00:05:11.639 express his frustrations about not getting acting 00:05:11.639 --> 00:05:14.759 gigs. Wow, imagine that conversation. And Wilder, 00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:17.439 maybe seeing something in him or just being pragmatic, 00:05:17.720 --> 00:05:20.800 gives him this piece of advice that basically 00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:23.420 changes everything. He tells him, look, if they're 00:05:23.420 --> 00:05:25.899 not casting you, stop waiting for them. Write 00:05:25.899 --> 00:05:27.620 your own roles. Write your own material. Create 00:05:27.620 --> 00:05:30.399 your own vehicle. Exactly. That conversation, 00:05:30.680 --> 00:05:34.170 that advice, seems to be the spark. His failure 00:05:34.170 --> 00:05:36.670 to break through purely as an actor forced him 00:05:36.670 --> 00:05:39.329 to become a writer, a creator. And that ultimately 00:05:39.329 --> 00:05:42.449 turned out to be where his real power lay. And 00:05:42.449 --> 00:05:44.170 what's really striking is how quickly things 00:05:44.170 --> 00:05:46.990 started to shift once he took that advice, once 00:05:46.990 --> 00:05:48.949 he started writing from his own unique place. 00:05:49.069 --> 00:05:51.250 His first credited role was actually playing 00:05:51.250 --> 00:05:53.610 a character named Billy Bob in Hunter's Blood, 00:05:53.829 --> 00:05:56.310 where he was also a stand -in. Super humble start. 00:05:56.470 --> 00:05:58.949 Yeah, really paying his dues. And he did have 00:05:58.949 --> 00:06:01.810 those smaller but noticeable parts in the late 00:06:01.810 --> 00:06:04.990 80s, early 90s in Beeson Proposal. On Deadly 00:06:04.990 --> 00:06:07.269 Ground, he was the guy who wasn't Johnny Ringo 00:06:07.269 --> 00:06:09.889 in Tombstone. Right, building a resume. But The 00:06:09.889 --> 00:06:14.550 Big Leap was co -writing One False Move in 1992, 00:06:15.009 --> 00:06:17.009 critically acclaimed thriller. And he played 00:06:17.009 --> 00:06:19.269 the villain in it too, right? He did, which showed 00:06:19.269 --> 00:06:21.170 right away he could write this dark, intense 00:06:21.170 --> 00:06:24.519 stuff and embody it. He was feeding both sides 00:06:24.519 --> 00:06:26.959 of his ambition, the writer and the actor. That 00:06:26.959 --> 00:06:28.860 must have given him some stability because then 00:06:28.860 --> 00:06:31.040 he lands a regular gig on that sitcom Hearts 00:06:31.040 --> 00:06:34.319 of Fire. Yeah, from 92 to 95. Yeah. Steady work. 00:06:34.620 --> 00:06:36.899 But you can feel everything was building towards 00:06:36.899 --> 00:06:39.379 him taking full control, becoming an auteur. 00:06:39.819 --> 00:06:42.319 And that moment, obviously, was Sling Blade in 00:06:42.319 --> 00:06:45.800 1996. Which is just such a singular achievement. 00:06:45.939 --> 00:06:48.319 He wrote it, directed it, starred in it based 00:06:48.319 --> 00:06:50.399 on his own short film. And the character Carl 00:06:50.399 --> 00:06:52.920 Childers, I mean, that performance is... unforgettable. 00:06:53.019 --> 00:06:56.160 Absolutely. The premise itself is intense. A 00:06:56.160 --> 00:06:58.420 man with intellectual disabilities released after 00:06:58.420 --> 00:07:01.319 killing his mother and her lover years ago. But 00:07:01.319 --> 00:07:04.079 how he portrayed Carl? It's all in the specifics. 00:07:04.279 --> 00:07:07.220 That low, gravelly voice, the way he holds himself, 00:07:07.420 --> 00:07:10.160 that slight hunch. It's not showy acting. It's 00:07:10.160 --> 00:07:13.899 this quiet. coiled intensity. You feel like Thornton 00:07:13.899 --> 00:07:16.420 poured all his own specific anxieties, maybe 00:07:16.420 --> 00:07:19.540 even that diagnosed OCD, into crafting Carl's 00:07:19.540 --> 00:07:22.199 mannerisms. He understood that character from 00:07:22.199 --> 00:07:24.160 the inside out. And the film was just executed 00:07:24.160 --> 00:07:27.379 so perfectly. It got huge critical acclaim. Huge. 00:07:27.560 --> 00:07:29.819 This was his big arrival, Oscar win for Best 00:07:29.819 --> 00:07:31.720 Adapted Screenplay, Writers Guild Award, Edgar 00:07:31.720 --> 00:07:34.459 Award. And on top of that, nominations for Best 00:07:34.459 --> 00:07:36.459 Actor at the Oscars and the Screen Actors Guild 00:07:36.459 --> 00:07:38.620 Awards. Nominated for writing and acting for 00:07:38.620 --> 00:07:41.199 the same film he directed. That's rarefied. He 00:07:41.199 --> 00:07:43.620 basically forced Hollywood to recognize him on 00:07:43.620 --> 00:07:45.839 his own terms. Totally. And after Sling Blade, 00:07:46.019 --> 00:07:48.100 the doors flew open. He had this incredible run 00:07:48.100 --> 00:07:51.240 from about 1998 to 2004. Got another Oscar nomination 00:07:51.240 --> 00:07:53.579 right away. That's supporting actor for A Simple 00:07:53.579 --> 00:07:55.600 Plan. Which is such a great dark, twisty movie. 00:07:55.860 --> 00:07:58.740 Very Coen Brothers -esque. Definitely. And he 00:07:58.740 --> 00:08:01.199 really cemented this screen persona. The media 00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:04.360 called him the tattooed hirsute man's man. Yeah. 00:08:04.480 --> 00:08:06.600 Often playing these smart, cynical, maybe world 00:08:06.600 --> 00:08:09.120 -weary guys. The range in that period is amazing, 00:08:09.220 --> 00:08:11.699 though. He's... the James Carville type political 00:08:11.699 --> 00:08:14.019 strategist in Primary Colors. Hilarious in that. 00:08:14.120 --> 00:08:16.500 He's in the blockbuster Armageddon. He does incredible 00:08:16.500 --> 00:08:18.480 work with the Coen brothers and the man who wasn't 00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:21.800 there. And then Monsters Ball. Two really nuanced 00:08:21.800 --> 00:08:24.800 powerful performances back to back in 2001. But 00:08:24.800 --> 00:08:27.300 he wasn't just doing heavy drama. He also popped 00:08:27.300 --> 00:08:29.959 up in the Coen's Intolerable Cruelty as this 00:08:29.959 --> 00:08:33.220 slick oil millionaire. Right. And maybe the biggest 00:08:33.220 --> 00:08:36.220 surprise playing the kind of sleazy womanizing 00:08:36.220 --> 00:08:40.529 U .S. president love. Actually, in 2003, a huge 00:08:40.529 --> 00:08:43.070 global hit rom -com. So he's showing all this 00:08:43.070 --> 00:08:46.409 versatility, but then comes the role that maybe 00:08:46.409 --> 00:08:48.909 defined him in the public eye more than any other 00:08:48.909 --> 00:08:51.850 and led to that typecasting you mentioned. We 00:08:51.850 --> 00:08:54.769 got to talk Bad Santa. Oh, Bad Santa, 2003. It's 00:08:54.769 --> 00:08:56.929 iconic because he commits so fully to Willie 00:08:56.929 --> 00:08:59.450 Soak. It's dark, it's profane, it's hilarious, 00:08:59.710 --> 00:09:02.970 but he's genuinely awful, the ultimate anti -Christmas 00:09:02.970 --> 00:09:05.110 character. And the stories around the filming, 00:09:05.230 --> 00:09:07.409 like him admitting he was actually drunk for 00:09:07.409 --> 00:09:09.029 some reason. scenes yeah that just added to the 00:09:09.029 --> 00:09:11.450 legend like he achieved peak miserable realism 00:09:11.450 --> 00:09:14.929 but that character willie soak was so strong 00:09:14.929 --> 00:09:18.210 so specific that it kind of stuck to him right 00:09:18.210 --> 00:09:21.149 it really did thornton himself said that after 00:09:21.149 --> 00:09:23.690 bad santa casting directors would just call him 00:09:23.690 --> 00:09:27.309 up whenever they needed quote an he noted how 00:09:27.309 --> 00:09:29.970 narrow the imagination in hollywood can be sometimes 00:09:29.970 --> 00:09:32.929 he created this incredibly successful specific 00:09:32.929 --> 00:09:35.629 thing and they wanted him to just keep doing 00:09:35.629 --> 00:09:37.750 it Which seems like exactly the kind of thing 00:09:37.750 --> 00:09:39.710 that would frustrate him, given his need for 00:09:39.710 --> 00:09:42.350 control. Absolutely. And you see that frustration 00:09:42.350 --> 00:09:44.950 reflected in his directing career, or lack thereof, 00:09:44.950 --> 00:09:47.730 for a while. Yeah. He adapted Cormac McCarthy's 00:09:47.730 --> 00:09:50.850 All the Pretty Horses in 2000. Big, ambitious 00:09:50.850 --> 00:09:54.090 project. Yeah, I remember that. Matt Damon, Penelope 00:09:54.090 --> 00:09:56.730 Cruz. Right. But the experience turned sour. 00:09:57.629 --> 00:10:00.309 The studio, Miramax at the time, apparently forced 00:10:00.309 --> 00:10:02.669 him to cut over an hour from his preferred director's 00:10:02.669 --> 00:10:05.529 cut. Ouch. Over an hour? Yeah. And for someone 00:10:05.529 --> 00:10:07.529 like Thornton, who seems to need that artistic 00:10:07.529 --> 00:10:10.309 control, that was devastating. He felt his vision 00:10:10.309 --> 00:10:12.470 was totally compromised. So much so that he basically 00:10:12.470 --> 00:10:16.490 swore off directing? Pretty much. He said afterward 00:10:16.490 --> 00:10:18.350 that because of that experience, he'd probably 00:10:18.350 --> 00:10:21.419 never direct again. Now, he did eventually direct 00:10:21.419 --> 00:10:23.960 a couple more films, Daddy and Them, Jay Mansfield's 00:10:23.960 --> 00:10:27.139 car. But that initial strong reaction tells you 00:10:27.139 --> 00:10:30.259 how deeply he resists having his creative vision 00:10:30.259 --> 00:10:32.860 messed with by the powers that be. OK, so this 00:10:32.860 --> 00:10:34.320 is where it gets really interesting, I think. 00:10:34.649 --> 00:10:37.330 The movie typecasting, the frustration with studio 00:10:37.330 --> 00:10:39.889 interference, and then comes the rise of what 00:10:39.889 --> 00:10:42.350 people call peak TV. Right, the golden age of 00:10:42.350 --> 00:10:44.889 television. And for an actor like Thornton, the 00:10:44.889 --> 00:10:48.110 long -form storytelling of TV offered this amazing 00:10:48.110 --> 00:10:51.490 new playground. How so? How did it fit him? Well, 00:10:51.490 --> 00:10:53.870 think about it. Future films often require certain 00:10:53.870 --> 00:10:56.129 compression, maybe sanding off the rough edges 00:10:56.129 --> 00:10:58.970 for mass appeal. But these high -end cable and 00:10:58.970 --> 00:11:01.029 streaming shows, they allowed for deep dives 00:11:01.029 --> 00:11:03.769 into really complex, morally ambiguous characters. 00:11:03.950 --> 00:11:06.950 over, you know, 10, 12 hours a season. That's 00:11:06.950 --> 00:11:09.129 perfect for Thornton's brand of nuanced cynicism. 00:11:09.289 --> 00:11:11.769 He had room to breathe, basically. Exactly. And 00:11:11.769 --> 00:11:14.009 the first big splash in this new era was Fargo 00:11:14.009 --> 00:11:17.129 in 2014, the FX series based on the Coen brothers' 00:11:17.289 --> 00:11:20.509 world. Oh, man. He was incredible in that first 00:11:20.509 --> 00:11:23.789 season. Lorne Malvo. Chilling. Just absolutely 00:11:23.789 --> 00:11:27.009 chilling. He plays this sociopathic hitman who 00:11:27.009 --> 00:11:30.090 drifts into this small Minnesota town and just... 00:11:31.140 --> 00:11:33.200 unravels everything, particularly for Martin 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:36.110 Freeman's character Lester Nygaard. Malvo wasn't 00:11:36.110 --> 00:11:38.509 like a typical villain. He seemed almost philosophical 00:11:38.509 --> 00:11:41.370 about the chaos he caused. That's what made him 00:11:41.370 --> 00:11:43.690 terrifying. He wasn't really motivated by money 00:11:43.690 --> 00:11:46.769 or revenge. It seemed more like he was just curious, 00:11:46.970 --> 00:11:48.870 like he wanted to poke things and see what happened. 00:11:49.070 --> 00:11:51.769 Pure disruption delivered with this detached, 00:11:51.970 --> 00:11:54.649 almost amused intelligence. It was a masterclass. 00:11:54.909 --> 00:11:57.049 And it totally revitalized his career in a way, 00:11:57.090 --> 00:11:58.610 right? Brought him back into the awards conversation. 00:11:59.190 --> 00:12:01.309 Big time. Won the Golden Globe for Best Actor 00:12:01.309 --> 00:12:03.629 in a Miniseries. It reminded everyone just how 00:12:03.629 --> 00:12:06.090 potent he could be. when given the right material, 00:12:06.350 --> 00:12:08.870 show that Edge hadn't dulled at all. And right 00:12:08.870 --> 00:12:11.809 after Fargo, he jumps into another major TV role, 00:12:11.929 --> 00:12:14.350 this time as the lead in Goliath for Amazon. 00:12:14.710 --> 00:12:17.889 Yeah, starting in 2016, he plays Billy McBride. 00:12:17.970 --> 00:12:20.690 And the setup is classic Thornton territory. 00:12:21.090 --> 00:12:24.070 A once brilliant, high -powered lawyer who's 00:12:24.070 --> 00:12:26.889 now totally washed up, alcoholic, working out 00:12:26.889 --> 00:12:29.590 of a motel. The ultimate underdog lawyer trope. 00:12:29.870 --> 00:12:32.610 but with his specific flavor. Exactly. He uses 00:12:32.610 --> 00:12:34.649 that scream persona perfectly. The world weariness, 00:12:34.730 --> 00:12:37.470 the cynicism, but then these flashes of the old 00:12:37.470 --> 00:12:39.870 brilliance, the sharp legal mind underneath the 00:12:39.870 --> 00:12:43.490 booze and regret. It's an anti -hero arc, but 00:12:43.490 --> 00:12:46.409 grounded in his specific kind of believable misery. 00:12:46.690 --> 00:12:48.409 And the show really let that character develop 00:12:48.409 --> 00:12:50.669 over multiple seasons. Yeah, it ran until 2021. 00:12:51.389 --> 00:12:53.590 It gave him the space to peel back the layers 00:12:53.590 --> 00:12:55.850 of McBride, explore his addictions, his past 00:12:55.850 --> 00:12:58.210 failures, while still letting him fight the good 00:12:58.210 --> 00:13:00.149 fight so to speak. It was another sustained success 00:13:00.149 --> 00:13:02.710 for him on TV. And another Golden Globe win, 00:13:02.830 --> 00:13:05.690 right, for best actor in a TV drama. Yep, his 00:13:05.690 --> 00:13:08.610 second Globe. It really cemented his place as 00:13:08.610 --> 00:13:10.990 a major player in this new television landscape. 00:13:11.269 --> 00:13:13.330 The industry clearly trusted him to carry these 00:13:13.330 --> 00:13:15.990 complex, long -running shows. And he's still 00:13:15.990 --> 00:13:18.049 going strong. The sources mention he started 00:13:18.049 --> 00:13:21.850 a new show in 2024, Landman on Paramount +, still 00:13:21.850 --> 00:13:23.929 doing serious drama. Seems like he's found a 00:13:23.929 --> 00:13:26.230 really good fit in television. Looking back, 00:13:26.470 --> 00:13:29.470 it's quite a career arc. He got his star on the 00:13:29.470 --> 00:13:31.850 Hollywood Walk of Fame way back in 2004. Yeah, 00:13:31.889 --> 00:13:34.070 that was during that post -Sling Blade, pre -Bad 00:13:34.070 --> 00:13:37.710 Santa peak. But then you add the Emmys, the multiple 00:13:37.710 --> 00:13:40.470 Golden Globes across different eras. It shows 00:13:40.470 --> 00:13:43.950 real longevity, a sustained level of quality 00:13:43.950 --> 00:13:47.090 work, even as the industry changed around him. 00:13:47.250 --> 00:13:50.070 It's not just one flashpoint. It's consistency 00:13:50.070 --> 00:13:53.009 within his own very specific lane. Definitely. 00:13:53.090 --> 00:13:56.289 He found a way to keep being Billy Bob Thornton, 00:13:56.330 --> 00:13:59.720 essentially. make it work across decades. So 00:13:59.720 --> 00:14:02.019 if we're trying to get the full picture of this 00:14:02.019 --> 00:14:04.460 guy, we absolutely have to talk about the music 00:14:04.460 --> 00:14:06.820 because it's not just a side gig. It's not like, 00:14:06.840 --> 00:14:09.159 oh, another actor deciding to sing. Right. It 00:14:09.159 --> 00:14:11.019 feels much more fundamental to him. Exactly. 00:14:11.220 --> 00:14:13.559 It's like a whole separate parallel career. And 00:14:13.559 --> 00:14:15.539 understanding his dedication to music actually 00:14:15.539 --> 00:14:18.480 gives you really important context for why he 00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:20.539 seems to dislike the Hollywood game so much, 00:14:20.659 --> 00:14:23.320 why he needs validation on his own terms. And 00:14:23.320 --> 00:14:25.639 music came first for him, didn't it? Way first. 00:14:25.840 --> 00:14:28.580 Back in the 70s, before L .A., before acting 00:14:28.580 --> 00:14:31.159 was even really on the radar, he was the drummer 00:14:31.159 --> 00:14:33.759 in a blues rock band called Tres Hombres. Tres 00:14:33.759 --> 00:14:35.679 Hombres, okay. And they weren't just messing 00:14:35.679 --> 00:14:38.759 around. Apparently, Billy Gibbons from ZZ Top 00:14:38.759 --> 00:14:41.220 called them the best little cover band in Texas. 00:14:41.620 --> 00:14:45.220 High praise. Wow. And Thornton still carries 00:14:45.220 --> 00:14:48.279 that idea physically. He literally has a tattoo 00:14:48.279 --> 00:14:49.940 of the band's name. It's part of who he is. So 00:14:49.940 --> 00:14:52.159 he was a musician before he was an actor. Yeah. 00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:54.820 And that musician part never went away. Even 00:14:54.820 --> 00:14:56.899 as his film career took off, he kept recording. 00:14:57.019 --> 00:14:59.000 He actually did an album with a South African 00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:02.759 band called Jack Hammer back in 86. Huh. Didn't 00:15:02.759 --> 00:15:05.639 know that. But then when he hit big with Sling 00:15:05.639 --> 00:15:08.059 Blade and everything after, he launched a solo 00:15:08.059 --> 00:15:11.009 music career. Pretty much simultaneously. It 00:15:11.009 --> 00:15:12.909 felt like a statement, like, don't just define 00:15:12.909 --> 00:15:14.809 me by the movies. And what kind of music was 00:15:14.809 --> 00:15:17.149 he making solo? It was mostly alternative country. 00:15:17.529 --> 00:15:20.809 He released four albums between 2001 and 2007 00:15:20.809 --> 00:15:23.269 on Lost Highway Records albums, like Private 00:15:23.269 --> 00:15:27.309 Radio, Hobo. The sound is very much him, often 00:15:27.309 --> 00:15:30.570 kind of melancholic, reflective, definitely rooted 00:15:30.570 --> 00:15:32.870 in that Southern storytelling vibe that gave 00:15:32.870 --> 00:15:34.370 us Sling Blade. And he worked with some pretty 00:15:34.370 --> 00:15:36.470 respected names in that world. Right. He did 00:15:36.470 --> 00:15:39.450 a song for a Warren Zevon tribute album. He covered 00:15:39.450 --> 00:15:41.730 Johnny Cash's Ring of Fire with the legendary 00:15:41.730 --> 00:15:44.110 Earl Scruggs. This wasn't just phoning it in. 00:15:44.169 --> 00:15:46.690 He was engaging with the genre seriously, collaborating 00:15:46.690 --> 00:15:49.409 with icons. Okay, so he's got the solo stuff, 00:15:49.509 --> 00:15:51.750 and then he formed a band later on. Right. In 00:15:51.750 --> 00:15:55.450 2007, he formed the Boxmasters. with J .D. Andrew. 00:15:55.830 --> 00:15:57.950 More of a rock sound. And they're still active. 00:15:57.990 --> 00:16:00.350 They tour a lot. But it was the Boxmasters, wasn't 00:16:00.350 --> 00:16:03.029 it, that led to that infamous interview incident? 00:16:03.210 --> 00:16:07.070 Oh boy, yes. The 2009 CBC radio interview. This 00:16:07.070 --> 00:16:09.830 is like the perfect storm of his anti -celebrity 00:16:09.830 --> 00:16:12.409 stance clashing with media expectations. Set 00:16:12.409 --> 00:16:14.309 the scene for us. What happened? Okay, so the 00:16:14.309 --> 00:16:16.809 band is touring, promoting their music. They're 00:16:16.809 --> 00:16:18.370 scheduled to appear on this well -known Canadian 00:16:18.370 --> 00:16:21.309 radio show called Q, hosted by Jan Gomeshi at 00:16:21.309 --> 00:16:24.169 the time. Right. And here's the crucial bit. 00:16:24.950 --> 00:16:27.309 Thornton's team specifically told the producers 00:16:27.309 --> 00:16:30.409 beforehand, do not ask him about his movie career. 00:16:30.850 --> 00:16:34.710 He's here as a musician for the Boxmasters. He 00:16:34.710 --> 00:16:37.169 wanted the music judged on its own, separate 00:16:37.169 --> 00:16:39.470 from Billy Bob the movie star. Okay, makes sense 00:16:39.470 --> 00:16:42.970 from his perspective. But yeah. The host, probably 00:16:42.970 --> 00:16:44.649 just trying to give context for listeners who 00:16:44.649 --> 00:16:46.929 might only know him from films, mentions his 00:16:46.929 --> 00:16:48.990 acting career in the introduction. And Thornton 00:16:48.990 --> 00:16:51.230 did not react well. That's putting it mildly. 00:16:52.059 --> 00:16:55.559 He basically shut down. But in this really bizarre, 00:16:55.679 --> 00:16:59.059 passive aggressive way, he became like persistently 00:16:59.059 --> 00:17:01.700 unintelligible, gave one word answers, pretended 00:17:01.700 --> 00:17:04.660 not to understand simple questions, acted profoundly 00:17:04.660 --> 00:17:07.299 bored or confused. It was incredibly awkward 00:17:07.299 --> 00:17:10.019 to listen to. Just painful radio. Totally. The 00:17:10.019 --> 00:17:12.380 tension was immense. And then he famously delivered 00:17:12.380 --> 00:17:14.119 that line complaining that Canadian audiences 00:17:14.119 --> 00:17:16.279 were like mashed potatoes without the gravy. 00:17:16.460 --> 00:17:19.299 Oof. That's not going over well. No kidding. 00:17:19.759 --> 00:17:22.039 The interview went viral, huge backlash, people 00:17:22.039 --> 00:17:23.920 thought he was being incredibly rude and bizarre. 00:17:24.259 --> 00:17:26.119 And shortly after, the rest of their Canadian 00:17:26.119 --> 00:17:28.319 tour was cancelled. The official reason given 00:17:28.319 --> 00:17:32.019 was, like, band members having the flu. But the 00:17:32.019 --> 00:17:34.779 timing was suspicious? Very. It was this really 00:17:34.779 --> 00:17:37.500 public, strange meltdown, but you can kind of 00:17:37.500 --> 00:17:40.220 see the root of it. His intense need for his 00:17:40.220 --> 00:17:43.000 music to be taken seriously, completely separate 00:17:43.000 --> 00:17:45.059 from the Hollywood fame he often seems to resent. 00:17:45.450 --> 00:17:48.549 It was that internal contradiction, hating celebrity 00:17:48.549 --> 00:17:51.269 culture, but needing the media platform just 00:17:51.269 --> 00:17:54.650 exploding outwards. OK, let's pivot to look behind 00:17:54.650 --> 00:17:56.630 the curtain a bit more, because for a guy who 00:17:56.630 --> 00:17:59.250 clearly dislikes the spotlight, his personal 00:17:59.250 --> 00:18:00.869 life has definitely drawn a lot of attention 00:18:00.869 --> 00:18:03.549 over the years, particularly his relationships. 00:18:03.730 --> 00:18:07.279 Yeah, the marital history is. Complex. Six marriages 00:18:07.279 --> 00:18:09.519 in total. Four kids with three different women. 00:18:09.759 --> 00:18:12.019 It points to a certain, let's say, turbulence 00:18:12.019 --> 00:18:14.380 in his romantic life. Walk us through it briefly. 00:18:14.700 --> 00:18:17.279 Okay, first marriage, Melissa Lee Gatlin, back 00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:19.940 in 78, didn't last long. Then Tony Lawrence. 00:18:20.279 --> 00:18:22.619 Then he married Cinda Williams, the actress he 00:18:22.619 --> 00:18:24.779 actually cast in One False Move, his writing 00:18:24.779 --> 00:18:28.359 debut. Ah, okay. That ended. Then came his marriage 00:18:28.359 --> 00:18:31.279 to Pietra Dawn Cherniak, a former Playboy model, 00:18:31.480 --> 00:18:35.349 from 93 to 97. That one ended very publicly and 00:18:35.349 --> 00:18:38.069 contentiously with accusations of abuse leveled 00:18:38.069 --> 00:18:40.650 against him. So that added a really difficult, 00:18:40.789 --> 00:18:43.910 dark layer to his public persona at the time. 00:18:43.970 --> 00:18:46.009 Right. That was a tough period. And then, of 00:18:46.009 --> 00:18:47.849 course, the one that everyone remembers, the 00:18:47.849 --> 00:18:51.230 one that was pure tabloid gold, Angelina Jolie. 00:18:51.390 --> 00:18:55.109 Absolutely. From 2000 to 2003, she was almost 00:18:55.109 --> 00:18:56.809 20 years younger than him. Both of them were 00:18:56.809 --> 00:18:59.990 at peak fame levels. It was just. A media magnet. 00:19:00.170 --> 00:19:02.829 And they leaned into the eccentricity, didn't 00:19:02.829 --> 00:19:04.930 they? The whole blood vial thing. Oh, yeah. That 00:19:04.930 --> 00:19:07.390 story dominated. The media reported they wore 00:19:07.390 --> 00:19:09.309 vials of each other's blood around their necks. 00:19:09.329 --> 00:19:12.829 It instantly cemented them as this, like, gothy, 00:19:12.849 --> 00:19:15.369 intense, maybe slightly weird Hollywood power 00:19:15.369 --> 00:19:17.529 couple. He did clarify that later, though, right? 00:19:17.630 --> 00:19:19.450 It wasn't quite as gruesome as it sounded. He 00:19:19.450 --> 00:19:21.710 did. He said they were actually small lockets, 00:19:21.710 --> 00:19:23.789 and each contained just a single drop of blood, 00:19:23.829 --> 00:19:26.329 like from a finger prick. Still eccentric, maybe, 00:19:26.430 --> 00:19:28.470 but definitely less vampire chic than the headlines 00:19:28.470 --> 00:19:31.069 made it seem. But the sensationalism took over. 00:19:31.150 --> 00:19:33.670 That relationship also involved an adoption announcement, 00:19:33.789 --> 00:19:36.250 I recall. Yes. They announced they were adopting 00:19:36.250 --> 00:19:38.890 a child from Cambodia together. Yeah. But they 00:19:38.890 --> 00:19:42.309 separated pretty soon after, in 2002, divorced 00:19:42.309 --> 00:19:46.490 in 2003, and ultimately, Jolie adopted her son, 00:19:46.710 --> 00:19:49.500 Maddox, as a single parent. So that chapter closed 00:19:49.500 --> 00:19:51.900 quite dramatically. And after all that, he actually 00:19:51.900 --> 00:19:53.980 did get married again, despite saying he probably 00:19:53.980 --> 00:19:56.019 wouldn't. Right, he'd said marriage doesn't work 00:19:56.019 --> 00:19:58.980 for him. But then in 2014, he quietly married 00:19:58.980 --> 00:20:01.720 Connie Angland, who works in makeup effects. 00:20:01.900 --> 00:20:03.880 They have a daughter together. It seems like 00:20:03.880 --> 00:20:06.880 a much more low -key, stable relationship, far 00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:09.599 from the paparazzi glare. Okay, shifting gears 00:20:09.599 --> 00:20:11.859 from relationships to health, this also seems 00:20:11.859 --> 00:20:15.140 really key to understanding his intensity. Definitely. 00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:17.440 The sources mention that back when he was struggling 00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:19.720 in L .A., he ended up in the hospital and got 00:20:19.720 --> 00:20:21.740 diagnosed with myocarditis. A heart condition. 00:20:22.019 --> 00:20:24.240 Yeah, a serious one. And it was thought to be 00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:26.259 brought on by his diet back then, the stress. 00:20:26.559 --> 00:20:28.839 A real wake -up call. And how did he respond? 00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:32.279 With typical Thornton intensity, it seems. He 00:20:32.279 --> 00:20:34.460 apparently completely overhauled his lifestyle, 00:20:34.740 --> 00:20:37.740 now follows a strict vegan diet, avoids wheat 00:20:37.740 --> 00:20:40.680 and dairy he calls himself extremely healthy 00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:43.859 it shows that same dedication that need for control 00:20:43.859 --> 00:20:46.579 applying to his physical well -being okay but 00:20:46.579 --> 00:20:49.579 now let's get to the really fascinating stuff 00:20:49.579 --> 00:20:53.480 the quirks the phobias the sources mention ocd 00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:56.180 and dyslexia which we touched on But the specific 00:20:56.180 --> 00:20:59.460 phobias are just wow. Right. This is where you 00:20:59.460 --> 00:21:01.500 really see the connection between the man and 00:21:01.500 --> 00:21:03.799 the work. These aren't just little anxieties. 00:21:03.900 --> 00:21:06.640 They're powerful, specific, psychological things 00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:09.059 he deals with. Let's start with the antique furniture 00:21:09.059 --> 00:21:12.220 phobia. It's so specific. It really is. He has 00:21:12.220 --> 00:21:14.380 this deep -seated fear. He says he gets genuinely 00:21:14.380 --> 00:21:16.759 creeped out by antique furniture, but not just 00:21:16.759 --> 00:21:20.130 any old stuff. Specifically... French Louis IV 00:21:20.130 --> 00:21:23.410 style furniture. Like the big ornate gold velvet 00:21:23.410 --> 00:21:26.069 stuff. Exactly that. Those heavy imposing gilded 00:21:26.069 --> 00:21:28.690 chairs and things. He finds them deeply unsettling. 00:21:28.789 --> 00:21:30.890 And he claims he can tell real antiques from 00:21:30.890 --> 00:21:33.890 fakes. Yeah. He said the imitations have a different 00:21:33.890 --> 00:21:36.809 vibe, not as much dust. It's like he has this 00:21:36.809 --> 00:21:40.170 almost supernatural sensitivity to the history, 00:21:40.289 --> 00:21:42.490 the weight of these objects. Why Louis IV safe 00:21:42.490 --> 00:21:44.109 though? What does that represent? Well, think 00:21:44.109 --> 00:21:46.029 about it. It's the polar opposite of his Arkansas 00:21:46.029 --> 00:21:48.970 roots, right? It's old, incredibly. opulent, 00:21:49.009 --> 00:21:51.829 aristocratic, maybe feels pretentious or decayed. 00:21:52.009 --> 00:21:54.789 It's everything his grounded, dusty southern 00:21:54.789 --> 00:21:57.309 background isn't. It could represent a kind of 00:21:57.309 --> 00:22:00.130 historical baggage or phoniness that repels him. 00:22:00.230 --> 00:22:02.069 And this isn't just a personal quirk he keeps 00:22:02.069 --> 00:22:04.410 private. He put it directly into Sling Blade. 00:22:04.589 --> 00:22:07.589 Right into the script. Dwight Yoakam's character, 00:22:07.789 --> 00:22:10.490 the abusive Doyle Hargraves, shares that exact 00:22:10.490 --> 00:22:13.710 same phobia of antique furniture. Thornton literally 00:22:13.710 --> 00:22:16.329 wrote his own neurosis into his Oscar -winning 00:22:16.329 --> 00:22:18.660 screenplay. That's incredible. What about the 00:22:18.660 --> 00:22:21.079 silverware phobia? Another hyper -specific one. 00:22:21.180 --> 00:22:23.380 A fear of certain kinds of silverware, particularly 00:22:23.380 --> 00:22:26.140 heavy, real silver forks and knives. Again, notice 00:22:26.140 --> 00:22:28.680 the association with formality, wealth, and the 00:22:28.680 --> 00:22:31.819 old traditions. Not just any spoon. Nope. And 00:22:31.819 --> 00:22:35.160 again, he used it. His character in Monster's 00:22:35.160 --> 00:22:38.480 Ball, Hank Grotowski, famously insists on eating 00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:40.839 his ice cream with a plastic spoon, even though 00:22:40.839 --> 00:22:43.539 there's proper silverware available. It's a tiny 00:22:43.539 --> 00:22:45.480 detail, but it comes directly from Thornton's 00:22:45.480 --> 00:22:48.670 own life. his own anxieties. He uses these things 00:22:48.670 --> 00:22:50.670 as building blocks for character. It's like his 00:22:50.670 --> 00:22:53.910 neuroses are his toolkit. Pretty much. And just 00:22:53.910 --> 00:22:55.910 to round out the picture, he has these deep, 00:22:55.930 --> 00:23:00.029 unwavering passions to huge baseball fans, specifically 00:23:00.029 --> 00:23:01.789 the St. Louis Cardinals. To the point where it's 00:23:01.789 --> 00:23:05.029 in his contracts. Yep. requires a TV with a satellite 00:23:05.029 --> 00:23:06.789 dish and his movie trailers so he doesn't miss 00:23:06.789 --> 00:23:08.970 Cardinals games. It's like this anchor, this 00:23:08.970 --> 00:23:11.670 piece of home and ritual he needs amidst the 00:23:11.670 --> 00:23:13.910 chaos of filming. It tells you something about 00:23:13.910 --> 00:23:16.349 his need for control and routine. And finally, 00:23:16.410 --> 00:23:19.630 his take on faith. Fits the persona. He says 00:23:19.630 --> 00:23:21.329 he's not traditionally religious, though he went 00:23:21.329 --> 00:23:23.970 to Methodist church growing up. He distrusts 00:23:23.970 --> 00:23:26.849 certainty. He's quoted as saying, anybody who 00:23:26.849 --> 00:23:29.289 says, I know what happens, I don't believe them. 00:23:29.660 --> 00:23:32.059 That's kind of my religion. It's that agnostic 00:23:32.059 --> 00:23:34.900 questioning viewpoint you see in so many of his 00:23:34.900 --> 00:23:37.460 characters. So, okay, when you pull all these 00:23:37.460 --> 00:23:41.250 threads together, what do you get? You really 00:23:41.250 --> 00:23:44.150 see an artist whose success seems directly linked 00:23:44.150 --> 00:23:46.670 to his ability to tap into his deepest, most 00:23:46.670 --> 00:23:49.390 specific anxieties and personal experience. Yeah, 00:23:49.410 --> 00:23:51.329 the stuff that makes him tick, the neuroses, 00:23:51.450 --> 00:23:53.930 the phobias, that's the raw material. Exactly. 00:23:53.970 --> 00:23:57.230 The guy who hates old, heavy, gilded French furniture 00:23:57.230 --> 00:23:59.609 ends up being brilliant at playing these kind 00:23:59.609 --> 00:24:02.109 of... dusty, dark, classic American figures. 00:24:02.289 --> 00:24:04.589 It's fascinating. His whole career feels less 00:24:04.589 --> 00:24:06.950 like a climb up the traditional Hollywood ladder, 00:24:07.029 --> 00:24:08.950 which, you know, he seems to despise anyway, 00:24:09.049 --> 00:24:12.029 and more like this path carved out of sheer creative 00:24:12.029 --> 00:24:15.400 necessity. Right. His struggles gave his writing 00:24:15.400 --> 00:24:18.039 texture. His phobias became character traits, 00:24:18.140 --> 00:24:20.700 plot points even. He kind of reverse engineered 00:24:20.700 --> 00:24:24.359 his success by creating roles that resonated 00:24:24.359 --> 00:24:27.200 with his own complex psychology, whether that's 00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:29.660 hating velvet chairs or having a cynical view 00:24:29.660 --> 00:24:31.920 of the world. He's the ultimate anti -celebrity 00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:34.660 celebrity, found a way to win Oscars while seemingly 00:24:34.660 --> 00:24:37.700 wanting to be left alone. And that journey, you 00:24:37.700 --> 00:24:39.519 know, from serving Billy Wilder to directing 00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:41.900 his own films and then hitting that wall with 00:24:41.900 --> 00:24:44.589 studio interference. Yeah. It shows that constant 00:24:44.589 --> 00:24:47.990 battle for artistic control, which maybe explains 00:24:47.990 --> 00:24:50.049 why he found such a good home in long -form TV 00:24:50.049 --> 00:24:52.869 later on. Yeah, more room to execute his vision 00:24:52.869 --> 00:24:54.789 without those same kinds of compromises. You 00:24:54.789 --> 00:24:57.309 could develop those intense, specific characters 00:24:57.309 --> 00:24:59.670 over time. Which brings us to our final provocative 00:24:59.670 --> 00:25:02.309 thought for you, the listener. Think about this. 00:25:02.569 --> 00:25:05.210 Billy Bob Thornton actively dislikes old stuff, 00:25:05.390 --> 00:25:08.210 right? Finds antique furniture, creepy, dusty, 00:25:08.430 --> 00:25:10.710 maybe representing an oppressive past. Yet... 00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:13.559 So much of his career is built on revisiting 00:25:13.559 --> 00:25:16.319 and embodying these classic, sometimes pretty 00:25:16.319 --> 00:25:19.220 worn out American archetypes. The Western heavy, 00:25:19.380 --> 00:25:22.019 the cynical coach, the broken down lawyer. Yeah, 00:25:22.039 --> 00:25:23.339 characters that feel like they have some dust 00:25:23.339 --> 00:25:25.839 on them. So here's a question. Is his creative 00:25:25.839 --> 00:25:28.720 process, his writing, his directing, his acting 00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:31.940 fundamentally an attempt to take those old, maybe 00:25:31.940 --> 00:25:35.160 dusty Hollywood stories and archetypes and polish 00:25:35.160 --> 00:25:38.079 them, adapt them, make them feel new and vital 00:25:38.079 --> 00:25:41.460 again? Is he trying to clean off the dust he 00:25:41.460 --> 00:25:43.759 dislikes in real life by reimagining these figures? 00:25:43.980 --> 00:25:46.759 Like, could his own neurosis, that aversion to 00:25:46.759 --> 00:25:49.099 the old and decaying, actually be the engine 00:25:49.099 --> 00:25:51.420 driving him to constantly reinvent these classic 00:25:51.420 --> 00:25:53.380 American stories, making his biggest fear his 00:25:53.380 --> 00:25:55.700 most valuable creative tool? Something to chew 00:25:55.700 --> 00:25:55.940 on.