WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.180 Welcome back to the Deep Dive. We are here to 00:00:02.180 --> 00:00:05.299 really dismantle and analyze some of the biggest, 00:00:05.379 --> 00:00:07.879 most complicated structures in culture and business. 00:00:08.119 --> 00:00:10.599 We take the sources you provide, extract the 00:00:10.599 --> 00:00:13.519 core intelligence, basically, so you can truly 00:00:13.519 --> 00:00:15.660 understand the mechanisms driving these huge 00:00:16.089 --> 00:00:18.550 global industries. And today we are plunging 00:00:18.550 --> 00:00:20.989 into something massive, a creative, technical, 00:00:21.250 --> 00:00:24.309 economic structure. It's well, it's gargantuan. 00:00:24.329 --> 00:00:27.030 It literally redefined Hollywood blockbuster 00:00:27.030 --> 00:00:29.070 strategy. We're talking, of course, about the 00:00:29.070 --> 00:00:31.910 Marvel Cinematic Universe. Exactly. The MCU. 00:00:32.600 --> 00:00:35.079 And to really grasp the scale here, let's start 00:00:35.079 --> 00:00:37.939 with the fundamentals. I mean, the MCU is, at 00:00:37.939 --> 00:00:41.219 its core, this meticulously planned series of 00:00:41.219 --> 00:00:43.640 American superhero films. They're produced by 00:00:43.640 --> 00:00:46.340 Marvel Studios, obviously based on Marvel Comics 00:00:46.340 --> 00:00:49.060 characters. But it's way beyond just a successful 00:00:49.060 --> 00:00:51.240 film series, isn't it? Statistically, it is the 00:00:51.240 --> 00:00:53.939 single highest grossing film franchise of all 00:00:53.939 --> 00:00:56.759 time, period. That scale. Yeah. It's just breathtaking. 00:00:56.859 --> 00:00:59.219 Yeah. It really demands focus. Absolutely. Since 00:00:59.219 --> 00:01:00.979 production formally kicked off, what was it, 00:01:00.979 --> 00:01:04.120 2007, Marvel Studios has produced and released 00:01:04.120 --> 00:01:09.299 37 films. And their collective global gross revenues, 00:01:09.599 --> 00:01:15.109 get this, exceed $32 .4 billion worldwide. Wow. 00:01:15.230 --> 00:01:17.109 I mean, to put that in perspective, that number 00:01:17.109 --> 00:01:20.349 starts rivaling the GDP of like a midsize nation. 00:01:20.450 --> 00:01:22.450 It's not just big. It's become this permanent 00:01:22.450 --> 00:01:25.890 fixture in global finance. It's huge. And we 00:01:25.890 --> 00:01:28.189 have to anchor this discussion to its high watermark, 00:01:28.310 --> 00:01:32.010 right? Avengers. Endgame. It didn't just break 00:01:32.010 --> 00:01:34.370 records. Upon release, it became the highest 00:01:34.370 --> 00:01:37.329 grossing film of all time. It fundamentally proved 00:01:37.329 --> 00:01:40.290 that this whole interconnected, serialized storytelling 00:01:40.290 --> 00:01:44.890 model was. feasible, scalable, and, well, wildly 00:01:44.890 --> 00:01:46.609 profitable. It really did. This is franchise 00:01:46.609 --> 00:01:48.989 creation at a level that it just never existed 00:01:48.989 --> 00:01:50.930 before Iron Man kicked it off. So our mission 00:01:50.930 --> 00:01:53.530 today, for you listening, is to look beyond the 00:01:53.530 --> 00:01:55.310 spectacle. You know, beyond the capes and the 00:01:55.310 --> 00:01:57.250 CGI. Right. We want to extract those crucial 00:01:57.250 --> 00:01:59.989 data points, the strategic decisions, and frankly, 00:02:00.109 --> 00:02:02.750 the cold, hard financial and contractual realities 00:02:02.750 --> 00:02:05.069 that actually built this universe. So you, the 00:02:05.069 --> 00:02:07.709 learner, get a comprehensive shortcut to understanding 00:02:07.709 --> 00:02:10.710 the how and the why behind this behemoth. And 00:02:10.710 --> 00:02:13.629 the structure is absolutely key here. You have 00:02:13.629 --> 00:02:15.629 to understand the structure. These films aren't 00:02:15.629 --> 00:02:18.409 released randomly. They're intentionally grouped 00:02:18.409 --> 00:02:20.990 into these self -contained narrative blocks. 00:02:21.229 --> 00:02:23.819 They call them phases. Right, the phases. Which, 00:02:23.900 --> 00:02:27.699 in turn, combine into larger, overarching, multi 00:02:27.699 --> 00:02:30.680 -year narratives known as sagas. Okay, let's 00:02:30.680 --> 00:02:34.419 unpack this then. Starting with those two grand 00:02:34.419 --> 00:02:36.560 narrative arcs that have defined everything so 00:02:36.560 --> 00:02:39.280 far. We have the foundational one, the Infinity 00:02:39.280 --> 00:02:41.780 Saga, which successfully built the whole universe. 00:02:41.860 --> 00:02:43.919 Your golden age, really. And then the current, 00:02:43.939 --> 00:02:46.360 more expansive narrative, the Multiverse Saga, 00:02:46.479 --> 00:02:49.000 which is attempting to expand it into, well, 00:02:49.039 --> 00:02:51.219 wholly new dimensions, literally. The Infinity 00:02:51.219 --> 00:02:53.379 Saga, yeah. That's what everyone remembers as 00:02:53.379 --> 00:02:56.080 the franchise's founding decade. It spanned phase 00:02:56.080 --> 00:02:59.180 one, phase two, and phase three. Ran from 2008 00:02:59.180 --> 00:03:02.000 right through 2019. That was the blueprint, wasn't 00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:04.860 it? Executed with remarkable precision. It really 00:03:04.860 --> 00:03:07.199 was. And phase one specifically that defined 00:03:07.199 --> 00:03:10.599 the entire operation. 2008 to 2012. Six founding 00:03:10.599 --> 00:03:13.979 films. Crucially, starting with Iron Man in 2008, 00:03:14.259 --> 00:03:16.780 that was the proof of concept, right? Because 00:03:16.780 --> 00:03:19.159 nobody was sure an interconnected superhero film 00:03:19.159 --> 00:03:21.800 could even work. Let alone five of them building 00:03:21.800 --> 00:03:24.550 to a conclusion. Exactly. And what's absolutely 00:03:24.550 --> 00:03:27.289 fascinating here is that phase one immediately 00:03:27.289 --> 00:03:30.050 established the essential strategic rhythm of 00:03:30.050 --> 00:03:32.909 the entire universe. You had individual character 00:03:32.909 --> 00:03:36.030 films, Iron Man, Thor, Captain America. Building 00:03:36.030 --> 00:03:37.650 toward something bigger. Building toward that 00:03:37.650 --> 00:03:40.770 big giant linchpin event film, which in this 00:03:40.770 --> 00:03:43.590 case was The Avengers in 2012. And that crossover 00:03:43.590 --> 00:03:45.990 model wasn't accidental, was it? Not at all. 00:03:46.030 --> 00:03:48.310 It was a direct calculated strategy, basically 00:03:48.310 --> 00:03:52.090 mimicking the successful serialized release rhythm 00:03:52.090 --> 00:03:55.909 you see in comics. It guaranteed built -in sequels 00:03:55.909 --> 00:03:57.909 for the characters, kept them alive, and then 00:03:57.909 --> 00:04:00.069 delivered a massive payday for the big event 00:04:00.069 --> 00:04:03.150 film. Smart. It proved the concept could work, 00:04:03.169 --> 00:04:06.360 which allowed them to move into Phase 2. Running 00:04:06.360 --> 00:04:10.000 from 2013 to 2015. Another six films. Right. 00:04:10.060 --> 00:04:12.259 But these served more as the bridge, didn't they? 00:04:12.319 --> 00:04:14.180 They were designed to take some calculated risks, 00:04:14.259 --> 00:04:16.920 expand the concept beyond just Earth. Precisely. 00:04:17.019 --> 00:04:21.060 Phase two was notable for, well, necessary sequels 00:04:21.060 --> 00:04:24.189 like Iron Man 3 and Thor. The Dark World. Yeah. 00:04:24.250 --> 00:04:26.230 You had to keep the core characters relevant. 00:04:26.350 --> 00:04:29.250 Sure. Keep the engine running. But it also bravely 00:04:29.250 --> 00:04:33.610 introduced entirely new kind of esoteric franchises 00:04:33.610 --> 00:04:35.649 like Guardians of the Galaxy and Ant -Man. And 00:04:35.649 --> 00:04:37.990 that was phase two, proving the formula was infinitely 00:04:37.990 --> 00:04:40.990 expandable. It showed the audience trusted the 00:04:40.990 --> 00:04:42.990 Marvel brand enough to follow them into deep 00:04:42.990 --> 00:04:46.250 space or tiny quantum realms. They built that 00:04:46.250 --> 00:04:49.209 trust. That successful expansion led directly 00:04:49.209 --> 00:04:52.069 into phase three, 2015 to 2019. This was the 00:04:52.069 --> 00:04:54.110 dramatic conclusion to the whole Infinity Saga. 00:04:54.209 --> 00:04:57.009 Yeah. Frequent MCU director Joe Russo, he actually 00:04:57.009 --> 00:04:59.389 described this era as the deconstruction phase. 00:04:59.610 --> 00:05:01.670 Interesting. Why deconstruction? Well, it began 00:05:01.670 --> 00:05:03.850 not with a team up, but with a conflict, right? 00:05:04.439 --> 00:05:06.660 The fracturing events of Captain America, Civil 00:05:06.660 --> 00:05:08.639 War, tearing them apart before bringing them 00:05:08.639 --> 00:05:11.379 together. Ah, right. Building the tension. Building 00:05:11.379 --> 00:05:13.800 the tension perfectly, leading, of course, to 00:05:13.800 --> 00:05:16.439 the two colossal concluding films, Avengers, 00:05:16.759 --> 00:05:19.920 Infinity War in 2018. And Avengers, Endgame in 00:05:19.920 --> 00:05:22.839 2019. And we have to underline the significance 00:05:22.839 --> 00:05:26.240 of Endgame. It wasn't just another sequel. It 00:05:26.240 --> 00:05:28.560 delivered what the source materials called a 00:05:28.560 --> 00:05:31.920 definitive end. to all the preceding storylines, 00:05:32.000 --> 00:05:35.600 all 22 films. 22 films, that's unheard of. Providing 00:05:35.600 --> 00:05:38.560 closure on a scale modern franchises rarely dare 00:05:38.560 --> 00:05:41.180 to attempt. It really is. But that incredible 00:05:41.180 --> 00:05:43.279 sense of closure, though, it raised a massive 00:05:43.279 --> 00:05:45.899 question, didn't it? Where do you possibly go 00:05:45.899 --> 00:05:48.980 from the definitive end? Exactly. Which brings 00:05:48.980 --> 00:05:51.100 us to where we are now, the multiverse saga. 00:05:51.600 --> 00:05:55.199 covering Phase 4, 5, and 6, projected to run 00:05:55.199 --> 00:05:59.160 from 2021 through, what, 2027? Yeah, 2027. And 00:05:59.160 --> 00:06:01.740 this transition, it was a huge strategic challenge. 00:06:01.899 --> 00:06:04.759 I mean, after the success and the emotional finality 00:06:04.759 --> 00:06:07.879 of Endgame, Marvel president Kevin Feige initially 00:06:07.879 --> 00:06:10.139 considered, well, he thought about abandoning 00:06:10.139 --> 00:06:11.860 the whole phase grouping altogether. Really? 00:06:11.980 --> 00:06:13.920 Wow. Perhaps fearing the structure felt too rigid 00:06:13.920 --> 00:06:16.279 after such a big finale, but, you know, the lure 00:06:16.279 --> 00:06:18.680 of a new, even grander narrative, the multiverse, 00:06:18.759 --> 00:06:20.980 it prevailed. And the new structure was a... 00:06:20.970 --> 00:06:24.230 officially revealed in 2022. So phase four, 2021, 00:06:24.709 --> 00:06:28.129 2022. That served as the sprawling and frankly, 00:06:28.250 --> 00:06:31.029 somewhat complex entry point into this new era, 00:06:31.149 --> 00:06:32.990 didn't it? It really did. Very different from 00:06:32.990 --> 00:06:36.470 phase one's focus start. This time we had seven 00:06:36.470 --> 00:06:38.410 films starting with Black Widow, Running Through 00:06:38.410 --> 00:06:41.129 Black Panther, Wakanda Forever. But the key strategic 00:06:41.129 --> 00:06:43.250 shift was also in the delivery mechanism, right? 00:06:43.310 --> 00:06:45.350 It wasn't just movies anymore. Not at all. Phase 00:06:45.350 --> 00:06:47.649 four incorporated eight dedicated television 00:06:47.649 --> 00:06:50.750 series and two special presentations, all debuting 00:06:50.750 --> 00:06:54.050 on Disney Plus. Wow. Eight series plus specials. 00:06:54.050 --> 00:06:57.310 Yeah. And that shift fundamentally changed the 00:06:57.310 --> 00:06:59.829 audience commitment required. It was just a rapid 00:06:59.829 --> 00:07:03.490 flood of content designed supposedly to plant 00:07:03.490 --> 00:07:06.269 clues about the next saga's heading. But critics 00:07:06.269 --> 00:07:08.250 noted it kind of diluted the narrative focus, 00:07:08.389 --> 00:07:10.649 didn't they? Compared to the really tight buildup 00:07:10.649 --> 00:07:12.829 of the Infinity Saga. They did. It felt much 00:07:12.829 --> 00:07:15.649 less focused. And we're now currently navigating 00:07:15.649 --> 00:07:19.949 Phase 5, 2023 -2025, which continues that heavy 00:07:19.949 --> 00:07:23.910 content load. Six announced films, plus a truly 00:07:23.910 --> 00:07:26.509 dense nine seasons of TV content slated for Disney 00:07:26.509 --> 00:07:29.329 Plus Nord. The pace is just unrelenting. It really 00:07:29.329 --> 00:07:32.430 is. And, you know, maintaining that initial blueprint 00:07:32.430 --> 00:07:34.889 rhythm, the future of the multiverse saga is 00:07:34.889 --> 00:07:37.689 already mapped out through Phase 6. Projected 00:07:37.689 --> 00:07:40.069 to end in 2027. So they've announced the ending 00:07:40.069 --> 00:07:42.449 already. Pretty much. We know the announced finale 00:07:42.449 --> 00:07:45.569 will consist of four films, culminating in two 00:07:45.569 --> 00:07:48.310 back -to -back major crossover events, kind of 00:07:48.310 --> 00:07:50.990 bookends for this saga. Which are? Avengers, 00:07:51.310 --> 00:07:54.730 Doomsday in December 2026, and then Avengers, 00:07:55.050 --> 00:07:59.250 Secret Wars in December 2027. Wow. So the sheer 00:07:59.250 --> 00:08:01.689 ambition, even with the recent strategic shifts 00:08:01.689 --> 00:08:04.209 we're about to discuss, it remains sky high. 00:08:04.410 --> 00:08:06.649 Absolutely. Planning years in advance. Okay, 00:08:06.670 --> 00:08:09.019 that. dizzying volume of content, especially 00:08:09.019 --> 00:08:12.180 in phase four, leads us directly into the massive 00:08:12.180 --> 00:08:14.920 economic engine that underpins this whole structure. 00:08:15.420 --> 00:08:17.240 Let's shift gears now and look at the engine 00:08:17.240 --> 00:08:19.980 room in section three, the economics of scale 00:08:19.980 --> 00:08:22.720 and the very recent, very dramatic strategic 00:08:22.720 --> 00:08:25.519 shifts now governing production. Right. The production 00:08:25.519 --> 00:08:28.319 core, it maintains a single key figure, Kevin 00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:30.860 Feige. He's produced every single film in the 00:08:30.860 --> 00:08:33.120 franchise. That consistency at the top is remarkable, 00:08:33.340 --> 00:08:35.740 isn't it? It really is. However, the initial 00:08:35.740 --> 00:08:39.399 films, they needed outside support. Avi Arad 00:08:39.399 --> 00:08:42.039 produced the first two Iron Man films. Gayle 00:08:42.039 --> 00:08:44.860 Ann Hurd worked on The Incredible Hulk. And the 00:08:44.860 --> 00:08:46.899 complexity continues to grow now, right? Yeah. 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:50.299 With the Russo Brothers company, AGBO, co -producing 00:08:50.299 --> 00:08:53.740 the concluding Behemoths, Avengers, Doomsday 00:08:53.740 --> 00:08:56.779 in Secret Wars. Exactly. And as we know, the 00:08:56.779 --> 00:08:59.899 Spider -Man films introduced that unique, complicated 00:08:59.899 --> 00:09:02.519 co -production layer with Amy Pascal at Sony. 00:09:02.659 --> 00:09:04.879 Right. And the recent credits for Deadpool and 00:09:04.879 --> 00:09:07.159 Wolverine included Lauren Schiller Donner, Ryan 00:09:07.159 --> 00:09:09.919 Reynolds, Sean Levy. It's a massive logistical 00:09:09.919 --> 00:09:12.679 machine. It requires not just consistency, but 00:09:12.679 --> 00:09:15.659 fresh partnerships and, frankly, highly skilled 00:09:15.659 --> 00:09:18.299 negotiators. So let's rewind a bit. We must remember 00:09:18.299 --> 00:09:20.460 the historical context of the initial development 00:09:20.460 --> 00:09:23.740 strategy, say 2005 to 2014. because it was based 00:09:23.740 --> 00:09:26.379 on one of the greatest financial gambles in recent 00:09:26.379 --> 00:09:28.820 Hollywood history. Oh, yeah. In 2007, Marvel 00:09:28.820 --> 00:09:32.480 Studios secured a staggering $525 million revolving 00:09:32.480 --> 00:09:34.539 credit facility from Merrill Lynch. Wait, let's 00:09:34.539 --> 00:09:36.500 just pause on that number. Half a billion dollars 00:09:36.500 --> 00:09:39.240 as a credit line. That's an insane amount of 00:09:39.240 --> 00:09:42.360 risk for a company that had, up till then, only 00:09:42.360 --> 00:09:44.440 licensed its characters out to other studios. 00:09:45.460 --> 00:09:48.559 What exactly were they risking? Everything. They 00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:51.159 were betting the farm on themselves. To secure 00:09:51.159 --> 00:09:55.340 that $525 million, Marvel leveraged the actual 00:09:55.340 --> 00:09:58.000 film rights to 10 core characters they hadn't 00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:00.659 yet sold off. Like who? Names like Captain America, 00:10:00.919 --> 00:10:04.159 Thor, Black Panther, and of course, the big one, 00:10:04.299 --> 00:10:07.159 Iron Man. So if Iron Man had failed in 2008? 00:10:07.539 --> 00:10:09.559 The studio could have lost the film rights to 00:10:09.559 --> 00:10:11.700 their most valuable remaining characters right 00:10:11.700 --> 00:10:13.779 back to the bank. It was a high -stakes, all 00:10:13.779 --> 00:10:15.759 -or -nothing move to produce their own content 00:10:15.759 --> 00:10:18.799 independently. Wow. That gamble, well, paid off 00:10:18.799 --> 00:10:21.059 spectacularly, didn't it? Yeah. Validating that 00:10:21.059 --> 00:10:24.059 initial concept. Individual character films merging 00:10:24.059 --> 00:10:26.600 for a massive crossover. Exactly. And that allowed 00:10:26.600 --> 00:10:29.100 Fage to develop a philosophy early on to fight 00:10:29.100 --> 00:10:31.940 off what he called superhero fatigue. Ah, the 00:10:31.940 --> 00:10:34.539 treaded fatigue. How did he plan to fight it? 00:10:34.620 --> 00:10:36.840 His production rhythm, as he called it, was genius 00:10:36.840 --> 00:10:39.639 in its simplicity. Aim for one existing character 00:10:39.639 --> 00:10:42.519 film and one new character film per year. Okay, 00:10:42.559 --> 00:10:44.919 so maintain familiarity but introduce novelty. 00:10:45.500 --> 00:10:48.210 Precisely. He argued that variety was the defense 00:10:48.210 --> 00:10:51.070 against saturation. He explicitly pointed out 00:10:51.070 --> 00:10:54.399 that their 2016 releases, Captain America, Civil 00:10:54.399 --> 00:10:57.440 War and Doctor Strange, despite both featuring 00:10:57.440 --> 00:10:59.840 superheroes, were completely different movies 00:10:59.840 --> 00:11:02.879 in tone, in scope. Makes sense. Kept things fresh. 00:11:03.100 --> 00:11:05.419 This strategy kept the audience engaged by offering 00:11:05.419 --> 00:11:07.960 different flavors, different genres almost, within 00:11:07.960 --> 00:11:10.399 the superhero framework. But that variety, you 00:11:10.399 --> 00:11:12.600 could argue, started to dilute when the sheer 00:11:12.600 --> 00:11:15.480 volume exploded during the multiverse saga. Absolutely. 00:11:15.580 --> 00:11:19.580 Which leads directly to what Disney CEO Bob Iger 00:11:19.580 --> 00:11:22.299 announced recently, the recent strategic reduction. 00:11:22.600 --> 00:11:24.620 Right. Tell us about that. that. Well, in May 00:11:24.620 --> 00:11:27.779 2024, Iger announced a major structural shift. 00:11:27.980 --> 00:11:30.799 The company plans to reduce Marvel film output 00:11:30.799 --> 00:11:32.860 from the four films they produced in some recent 00:11:32.860 --> 00:11:35.240 years, which felt like a lot. It was a lot down 00:11:35.240 --> 00:11:38.159 to just two or at most three films per year. 00:11:38.279 --> 00:11:41.779 This is a clear top down mandate. decrease content 00:11:41.779 --> 00:11:44.799 volume, and critically focus on quality after 00:11:44.799 --> 00:11:47.860 some perceived dips in consistency. And Iger 00:11:47.860 --> 00:11:49.860 wasn't exactly subtle about this, was he? He 00:11:49.860 --> 00:11:52.399 cited Thunderbolts as the first and best example 00:11:52.399 --> 00:11:55.830 of this refocusing effort. Yeah, a mid -level 00:11:55.830 --> 00:11:59.029 team -up film relies less on massive cosmic spectacle, 00:11:59.309 --> 00:12:02.049 maybe more on character drama, signaling the 00:12:02.049 --> 00:12:04.009 new direction. Although they've already scheduled 00:12:04.009 --> 00:12:07.269 four films for both 2025 and 2026, haven't they? 00:12:07.330 --> 00:12:09.710 So the reduction isn't immediate. No, those were 00:12:09.710 --> 00:12:12.590 likely already too far down the pipeline. But 00:12:12.590 --> 00:12:15.629 Phage anticipates starting only two films a year 00:12:15.629 --> 00:12:19.570 from 2026 onward. This pivot is a direct, data 00:12:19.570 --> 00:12:22.629 -driven response to market saturation and, crucially, 00:12:22.830 --> 00:12:25.100 cost inflation. OK, and here's where it gets 00:12:25.100 --> 00:12:27.559 really interesting, you said, because that focus 00:12:27.559 --> 00:12:31.179 on quality is inextricably tied to some surprising 00:12:31.179 --> 00:12:33.940 cost control measures. It absolutely is. Page 00:12:33.940 --> 00:12:37.019 announced in July 2025 that Marvel is actively 00:12:37.019 --> 00:12:39.860 reducing film budgets. He noted they had inflated 00:12:39.860 --> 00:12:41.899 significantly since Endgame. We need to unpack 00:12:41.899 --> 00:12:43.940 why they inflated, though. Was it just pandemic 00:12:43.940 --> 00:12:46.980 related costs or something deeper going on? It 00:12:46.980 --> 00:12:49.279 seems like a combination of factors. Pandemic 00:12:49.279 --> 00:12:51.620 costs played a role, sure. But also, sources 00:12:51.620 --> 00:12:54.100 point to unchecked expenditure in visual effects 00:12:54.100 --> 00:12:56.759 and escalating star salaries post -Endgame, post 00:12:56.759 --> 00:13:00.220 -pandemic. So the success may be bred some complacency 00:13:00.220 --> 00:13:02.809 on spending. Possibly. The source materials indicate 00:13:02.809 --> 00:13:06.149 that the budgets for their 2024 and 2025 films 00:13:06.149 --> 00:13:09.149 are planned to be a full third lower than the 00:13:09.149 --> 00:13:11.470 enormous costs associated with films made just 00:13:11.470 --> 00:13:15.190 back in 2022 and 2023. A third lower. Yeah. That 00:13:15.190 --> 00:13:19.100 is a drastic cut. That's not trimming. That's 00:13:19.100 --> 00:13:22.000 major surgery. It's a structural reduction. Yeah. 00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:24.120 And to achieve that, they must be fundamentally 00:13:24.120 --> 00:13:26.480 changing how they approach production. How are 00:13:26.480 --> 00:13:28.860 they doing that? Well, they are. In a fascinating 00:13:28.860 --> 00:13:31.419 move that really exemplifies the strategic shift, 00:13:31.759 --> 00:13:34.580 Marvel executives actually met with the creative 00:13:34.580 --> 00:13:37.139 team behind the creator. The Gareth Edwards sci 00:13:37.139 --> 00:13:39.840 -fi film from 2023. That's a one. It received 00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:42.340 critical acclaim for pulling off massive high 00:13:42.340 --> 00:13:45.000 concept special effects on a relatively minuscule 00:13:45.000 --> 00:13:48.350 $80 million budget. $80 million. For that scale, 00:13:48.509 --> 00:13:50.710 wow. Exactly. So Marvel is studying those techniques. 00:13:50.750 --> 00:13:52.870 They're learning how to produce their own huge 00:13:52.870 --> 00:13:55.590 spectacles with greater efficiency, trying to 00:13:55.590 --> 00:13:57.870 find those savings. So the company that basically 00:13:57.870 --> 00:14:01.090 defined the massive budget blockbuster is now 00:14:01.090 --> 00:14:03.950 learning efficiency from the high concept, lower 00:14:03.950 --> 00:14:07.450 budget indie sci -fi model. That is a fundamental 00:14:07.450 --> 00:14:10.179 reversal, isn't it? It really is. And it also 00:14:10.179 --> 00:14:12.539 means shifting production locations based on 00:14:12.539 --> 00:14:15.159 tax incentives and overall cost. Where are they 00:14:15.159 --> 00:14:17.940 moving? Marvel is now utilizing Pinewood Studios 00:14:17.940 --> 00:14:20.299 in the UK more frequently, apparently because 00:14:20.299 --> 00:14:23.230 the UK had become cheaper for them. While simultaneously 00:14:23.230 --> 00:14:25.990 moving away from their heavy reliance on Georgia, 00:14:26.169 --> 00:14:29.409 where costs were rising, they're also utilizing 00:14:29.409 --> 00:14:31.730 New York for its highly attractive production 00:14:31.730 --> 00:14:34.629 tax credits. So this strategic budget cutting 00:14:34.629 --> 00:14:37.490 is literally changing the geography of Marvel 00:14:37.490 --> 00:14:40.110 filmmaking. They're chasing the savings. OK, 00:14:40.190 --> 00:14:42.269 so the production complexity is one half of the 00:14:42.269 --> 00:14:44.190 story. The financial control is another part 00:14:44.190 --> 00:14:46.950 of the strategy. But the other, perhaps more 00:14:46.950 --> 00:14:50.799 convoluted half, is distribution. which requires 00:14:50.799 --> 00:14:53.779 navigating this truly Byzantine web of historic 00:14:53.779 --> 00:14:56.740 rights and complex co -production deals. Oh, 00:14:56.740 --> 00:14:59.340 yeah. Let's enter the distribution maze in Section 00:14:59.340 --> 00:15:01.820 4, because this is where the franchise's long 00:15:01.820 --> 00:15:04.440 history comes back to really complicate its present 00:15:04.440 --> 00:15:07.580 and future. So initially, distribution was fractured, 00:15:07.580 --> 00:15:09.580 right? Paramount Pictures handled most of Phase 00:15:09.580 --> 00:15:12.519 1. That's right. The Iron Man films, the first 00:15:12.519 --> 00:15:15.919 Thor, first Captain America. But Universal Pictures, 00:15:16.100 --> 00:15:18.299 they handled The Incredible Hulk back in 2008. 00:15:18.940 --> 00:15:21.200 But then Disney stepped in. Right. The consolidation 00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:24.100 began pretty quickly. Walt Disney Studios' motion 00:15:24.100 --> 00:15:26.019 pictures began distributing with the pivotal 00:15:26.019 --> 00:15:29.500 film The Avengers in 2012. And then by 2013, 00:15:29.759 --> 00:15:32.559 Disney strategically spent capital to acquire 00:15:32.559 --> 00:15:35.200 the distribution rights back from Paramount for 00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:38.299 Iron Man, Iron Man 2, Thor, and Captain America, 00:15:38.539 --> 00:15:40.639 the first Avengers. So they consolidated the 00:15:40.639 --> 00:15:43.220 majority of Phase 1 films under the Disney banner. 00:15:43.480 --> 00:15:46.389 Smart move. Very smart. But one film remained 00:15:46.389 --> 00:15:49.889 an outlier for years. And this is a key aha moment 00:15:49.889 --> 00:15:52.509 for you listening. The Incredible Hulk. Ah, the 00:15:52.509 --> 00:15:55.980 Hulk rights. Always complicated. Extremely. So 00:15:55.980 --> 00:15:58.279 we knew Marvel Studios owned the actual film 00:15:58.279 --> 00:15:59.879 rights. That's why Hulk could appear in Avengers 00:15:59.879 --> 00:16:02.500 films. But Universal retained the crucial distribution 00:16:02.500 --> 00:16:05.159 rights. And even more importantly, the right 00:16:05.159 --> 00:16:07.840 of first refusal to distribute any future Hulk 00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:10.139 solo films. What does right of first refusal 00:16:10.139 --> 00:16:12.899 actually mean in practice? That distinction is 00:16:12.899 --> 00:16:15.620 critical. It meant Marvel owned the character. 00:16:15.799 --> 00:16:18.460 They could use him in team ups. But Universal 00:16:18.460 --> 00:16:22.200 owned the veto power over a solo release. So 00:16:22.200 --> 00:16:24.700 Marvel couldn't. risk making a solo Hulk film 00:16:24.700 --> 00:16:27.659 for years exactly because Universal could just 00:16:27.659 --> 00:16:30.519 step in distribute it themselves and take a large 00:16:30.519 --> 00:16:33.139 share of the profits it was an active legal limitation 00:16:33.139 --> 00:16:36.259 on marvel's ability to fully utilize one of their 00:16:36.259 --> 00:16:39.500 founding avengers in his own movie but that legal 00:16:39.500 --> 00:16:41.840 obstacle was only removed recently wasn't it 00:16:41.840 --> 00:16:45.559 very recently in june 2023 those distribution 00:16:45.559 --> 00:16:48.080 rights for the incredible hulk finally reverted 00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:50.539 fully back to marvel studios and disney which 00:16:50.539 --> 00:16:52.559 is why we finally saw the film pop up on disney 00:16:52.559 --> 00:16:55.240 plus precisely this full rights reversion removes 00:16:55.240 --> 00:16:58.110 a significant historical obstacle and You know, 00:16:58.149 --> 00:17:00.450 it opens the door for potential future solo Hulk 00:17:00.450 --> 00:17:03.210 projects under Disney's full control. They choose 00:17:03.210 --> 00:17:05.990 to do one. Interesting. OK, the other major complexity, 00:17:06.089 --> 00:17:08.769 which is ongoing and constantly evolving, is 00:17:08.769 --> 00:17:11.240 the Sony Spider -Man co -production model. Ah, 00:17:11.299 --> 00:17:13.759 yes, Spidey. This is not a full ownership deal 00:17:13.759 --> 00:17:16.900 for Marvel Disney. It's a tight, carefully negotiated 00:17:16.900 --> 00:17:20.559 contractual collaboration that is, well, perpetually 00:17:20.559 --> 00:17:23.140 up for renegotiation, it seems. So just to clarify 00:17:23.140 --> 00:17:25.480 for everyone, Sony Pictures retains ownership, 00:17:25.799 --> 00:17:28.160 financing, and distribution control of the Spider 00:17:28.160 --> 00:17:30.559 -Man films featuring Tom Holland. Correct. But 00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:33.640 Marvel Studios, under Kevin Feige, co -produces 00:17:33.640 --> 00:17:36.019 them creatively. Can you break down the initial 00:17:36.019 --> 00:17:38.759 financial terms of that first deal back in 2015? 00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:41.079 What does Marvel get out of it? Well, the initial 00:17:41.079 --> 00:17:44.180 2015 deal, it favored Marvel creatively and commercially, 00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:47.220 but mostly in non -film aspects. Marvel gained 00:17:47.220 --> 00:17:49.220 full control of the merchandising rights for 00:17:49.220 --> 00:17:52.220 Spider -Man. Which is huge. Toys, shirts, everything. 00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:54.740 Massive revenue stream. In terms of the film 00:17:54.740 --> 00:17:57.019 itself, Marvel received only a small percentage, 00:17:57.140 --> 00:18:00.039 just 5 % of the film's first dollar gross. And 00:18:00.039 --> 00:18:02.180 Sony paid Marvel an undisclosed producer fee 00:18:02.180 --> 00:18:04.240 for Phage's services. So it was really about 00:18:04.240 --> 00:18:07.279 getting Spidey in the MCU creatively and controlling 00:18:07.279 --> 00:18:10.079 the merch, not about sharing box office profits 00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:12.480 initially. Exactly. For Disney, it was about 00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:15.019 creative access and merchandising control back 00:18:15.019 --> 00:18:18.259 then. But that financial model, that led to the 00:18:18.259 --> 00:18:22.339 infamous 2019 standoff, right? When it looked 00:18:22.339 --> 00:18:24.339 like Spider -Man might leave the MCU. Oh, yeah. 00:18:24.619 --> 00:18:27.299 Disney realized the immense value of the collaboration 00:18:27.299 --> 00:18:30.200 after Far From Home, and they wanted a much bigger 00:18:30.200 --> 00:18:33.579 slice of the pie. They sought a 50 -50 co -financing 00:18:33.579 --> 00:18:36.319 split for future films. Which Sony flatly rejected. 00:18:36.579 --> 00:18:38.859 They did. The negotiation impasse was very public, 00:18:38.900 --> 00:18:41.500 very dramatic. Fans were freaking out. I remember. 00:18:41.819 --> 00:18:44.220 The resolution, however, established the new, 00:18:44.339 --> 00:18:46.940 much more financially significant model for Disney. 00:18:47.160 --> 00:18:50.140 For Spider -Man. No way home, Disney agreed to 00:18:50.140 --> 00:18:52.599 co -finance... 25 % of the production costs. 00:18:52.759 --> 00:18:55.680 And in return, they receive 25 % of the film's 00:18:55.680 --> 00:18:58.019 profits while still retaining those critical 00:18:58.019 --> 00:19:00.119 merchandising rights. That's a massive jump. 00:19:00.500 --> 00:19:03.980 From 5 % of first dollar gross to 25 % of net 00:19:03.980 --> 00:19:07.140 profits. A huge difference. Absolutely. The agreement 00:19:07.140 --> 00:19:09.319 also includes Tom Holland's Spider -Man appearing 00:19:09.319 --> 00:19:12.759 in one future Marvel Studios team -up film. Though, 00:19:12.779 --> 00:19:14.619 as you say, the clock is ticking on that specific 00:19:14.619 --> 00:19:16.380 contractual window. We don't know which film 00:19:16.380 --> 00:19:18.960 that will be yet. And looking ahead, the upcoming 00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:22.640 Sony film, Spider -Man, Brand New Day, which 00:19:22.640 --> 00:19:25.940 is slated for 2026. That's already expected to 00:19:25.940 --> 00:19:28.319 feature team -ups with existing MCU characters. 00:19:28.660 --> 00:19:31.220 That's the report, yeah. Specifically, Bruce 00:19:31.220 --> 00:19:33.759 Banner Hulk and Frank Castle Punisher are rumored, 00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:36.420 which demonstrates the continued creative trust 00:19:36.420 --> 00:19:38.740 and partnership necessary to make these complex 00:19:38.740 --> 00:19:42.119 contracts function smoothly day -to -day. Speaking 00:19:42.119 --> 00:19:44.640 of seamless connection, or maybe seems showing. 00:19:45.230 --> 00:19:48.470 The central concept driving the current era is 00:19:48.470 --> 00:19:52.190 the literal inter -franchise multiverse. Spider 00:19:52.190 --> 00:19:55.089 -Man. No Way Home explicitly broke down the walls, 00:19:55.170 --> 00:19:57.549 didn't it? It blew them wide open, allowing characters 00:19:57.549 --> 00:20:00.289 from entirely separate non -MCU franchises, Tobey 00:20:00.289 --> 00:20:02.430 Maguire and Andrew Garfield's Spider -Man, all 00:20:02.430 --> 00:20:04.509 those villains from the older Sony films to cross 00:20:04.509 --> 00:20:06.569 over directly into the MCU. And the coordination 00:20:06.569 --> 00:20:08.890 extends right down to Sony's other separate cinematic 00:20:08.890 --> 00:20:11.769 universe, the SSU, right? With Venom. Yes. There 00:20:11.769 --> 00:20:13.910 was explicit coordination between the teams behind 00:20:13.910 --> 00:20:16.470 Sony's Venom. Let there be carnage in Marvel's 00:20:16.470 --> 00:20:18.369 No Way Home. How did that work? Well, remember 00:20:18.369 --> 00:20:21.390 the post -credits scene in Venom 2? Eddie Brock 00:20:21.390 --> 00:20:24.549 and Venom get zapped into the MCU by Doctor Strange's 00:20:24.549 --> 00:20:27.690 spell. Then, in the No Way Home post -credits, 00:20:27.690 --> 00:20:30.809 they get zapped back out. But crucially, they 00:20:30.809 --> 00:20:33.049 leave that little piece of the Venom symbiote 00:20:33.049 --> 00:20:36.670 behind in the MCU. Ah, right. setting up future 00:20:36.670 --> 00:20:39.569 MCU storylines potentially involving the symbiote. 00:20:39.730 --> 00:20:43.049 Exactly. That is the ultimate strategic handshake 00:20:43.049 --> 00:20:45.990 between studios, coordinating post -credit scenes 00:20:45.990 --> 00:20:48.630 across different franchises. But there are still 00:20:48.630 --> 00:20:50.509 firm limits, aren't there? It's not a free -for 00:20:50.509 --> 00:20:53.150 -all. Absolutely not. Phage was explicit. Apparently, 00:20:53.150 --> 00:20:56.529 Sony told Marvel Studios to stay away from the 00:20:56.529 --> 00:20:59.170 fan -favorite character Miles Morales. Really? 00:20:59.309 --> 00:21:02.329 Stay away? Yeah. Indicating very clear boundaries 00:21:02.329 --> 00:21:04.670 remain on character usage while Sony develops 00:21:04.670 --> 00:21:06.589 its own animated spider -verse film starring 00:21:06.589 --> 00:21:09.269 miles it's a highly detailed shared universe 00:21:09.269 --> 00:21:11.910 but only where the contracts specifically allow 00:21:11.910 --> 00:21:13.970 it it's fascinating how they manage that it is 00:21:13.970 --> 00:21:16.390 and interestingly sony's own universe materials 00:21:16.390 --> 00:21:19.029 they refer to the mcu not just as another universe 00:21:19.029 --> 00:21:21.849 but specifically as earth one nine nine nine 00:21:21.849 --> 00:21:24.529 nine nine wow that's specific yeah showing this 00:21:24.529 --> 00:21:26.849 mapping is highly detailed and presumably agreed 00:21:26.849 --> 00:21:30.740 upon by both studios behind the scenes okay Now 00:21:30.740 --> 00:21:33.420 that we've established the enormous complex structure 00:21:33.420 --> 00:21:36.539 and these fraught legal agreements, let's get 00:21:36.539 --> 00:21:39.160 into the hard numbers in Section 5, analyzing 00:21:39.160 --> 00:21:42.380 performance, because ultimately, the box office 00:21:42.380 --> 00:21:45.289 results the audience scores. That's what drove 00:21:45.289 --> 00:21:47.529 Iger's mandate and the budget adjustments we 00:21:47.529 --> 00:21:49.569 just discussed. Right. And the box office power 00:21:49.569 --> 00:21:52.710 historically remains unparalleled. The total 00:21:52.710 --> 00:21:55.769 cumulative growth stands over $32 .4 billion, 00:21:56.089 --> 00:21:59.269 cementing its status as the highest grossing 00:21:59.269 --> 00:22:01.650 film franchise globally. And we should note the 00:22:01.650 --> 00:22:03.750 recent release of Deadpool and Wolverine alone. 00:22:04.460 --> 00:22:06.460 That made over a billion dollars itself, didn't 00:22:06.460 --> 00:22:08.880 it? It did, and that pushed the entire franchise 00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:11.359 past the $30 billion mark. Just a staggering 00:22:11.359 --> 00:22:13.220 achievement for any media property. But when 00:22:13.220 --> 00:22:15.480 you look at the economics, some of these individual 00:22:15.480 --> 00:22:18.859 films were truly massive financial bets, even 00:22:18.859 --> 00:22:21.650 before the recent inflation. Oh, yeah. Avengers. 00:22:21.910 --> 00:22:24.470 Age of Ultron, for example, had a reported budget 00:22:24.470 --> 00:22:27.769 ranging wildly from $250 million up to a massive, 00:22:27.829 --> 00:22:30.869 complicated $444 million, depending on how you 00:22:30.869 --> 00:22:32.970 factor in things like pre -production costs and 00:22:32.970 --> 00:22:35.269 residuals. That's a huge range. Very complex 00:22:35.269 --> 00:22:38.029 accounting. More recently, Ant -Man and the Wasp. 00:22:38.470 --> 00:22:41.009 Quantumania had a highly complex reported budget 00:22:41.009 --> 00:22:45.910 of $388 .4 million. Nearly $400 million for an 00:22:45.910 --> 00:22:48.349 Ant -Man movie. Those numbers show a budget creep 00:22:48.349 --> 00:22:51.019 that clearly became unsustainable. leads us directly 00:22:51.019 --> 00:22:53.380 to the crucial case study and inconsistency, 00:22:53.500 --> 00:22:55.900 the performance of the Marvel. Ah, yes. What 00:22:55.900 --> 00:22:57.460 happened there? Well, this film had a reported 00:22:57.460 --> 00:23:00.920 budget of $375 million before UK tax rebates, 00:23:01.019 --> 00:23:04.259 so enormous cost. Yet, it resulted in a comparatively 00:23:04.259 --> 00:23:07.319 catastrophic worldwide gross of just $206 .1 00:23:07.319 --> 00:23:10.799 million. Let's stop and digest that. A $375 million 00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:13.160 investment returning barely half that at the 00:23:13.160 --> 00:23:14.960 global box office. It's dark. That's a fundamental 00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:16.960 business anomaly for Marvel Studios, isn't it? 00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:20.069 It's a disaster, financially speaking. That kind 00:23:20.069 --> 00:23:22.609 of financial misfire is precisely the kind of 00:23:22.609 --> 00:23:25.750 data point that drove Disney CEO Iger's decision 00:23:25.750 --> 00:23:29.069 to mandate that total production overhaul. Focus 00:23:29.069 --> 00:23:31.849 on efficiency. Focus on quality control. Because 00:23:31.849 --> 00:23:34.170 the spectacle wasn't translating to profit on 00:23:34.170 --> 00:23:36.250 that scale anymore. Something had to change. 00:23:36.490 --> 00:23:39.410 Exactly. So how has the audience responded over 00:23:39.410 --> 00:23:42.029 time? Not just critics, but the paying audience. 00:23:42.170 --> 00:23:44.789 Critically, the franchise hit... Incredible highs, 00:23:44.970 --> 00:23:48.250 didn't it? Films like Black Panther, 96 % on 00:23:48.250 --> 00:23:50.410 Rotten Tomatoes. The founding film Iron Man, 00:23:50.569 --> 00:23:54.309 94%. Considered masterpieces of the genre by 00:23:54.309 --> 00:23:57.009 many. True. But the deeper measure of audience 00:23:57.009 --> 00:23:59.450 happiness, especially for a fan -driven franchise 00:23:59.450 --> 00:24:01.670 like this, is probably the cinema score data. 00:24:01.849 --> 00:24:03.890 That's audience polling immediately after they 00:24:03.890 --> 00:24:05.950 see the film. Right. What does that show? That 00:24:05.950 --> 00:24:08.529 data shows phenomenal loyalty historically. The 00:24:08.529 --> 00:24:10.890 Avengers, Endgame, Black Panther, No Way Home, 00:24:11.049 --> 00:24:14.029 they all received the top A -plus grade. A -plus 00:24:14.029 --> 00:24:17.589 egg. That's rare. Extremely rare. It indicates 00:24:17.589 --> 00:24:20.170 not just critical success, but extremely positive, 00:24:20.369 --> 00:24:23.369 immediate, and statistically validated fan responses. 00:24:23.630 --> 00:24:25.970 When Marvel gets it right, the audience absolutely 00:24:25.970 --> 00:24:29.809 loves it unconditionally. However, that strategic 00:24:29.809 --> 00:24:32.250 pivot we talked about, the reduction in volume, 00:24:32.329 --> 00:24:34.910 it's impossible to ignore. And the recent critical 00:24:34.910 --> 00:24:37.150 and audience data provides the context for this 00:24:37.150 --> 00:24:39.519 correction, doesn't it? It really does. Films 00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:41.700 in Phase 4 and 5 started showing a significant 00:24:41.700 --> 00:24:44.859 divergence from that earlier Phase success. Critics 00:24:44.859 --> 00:24:47.259 and audiences started reacting less favorably, 00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:49.920 more inconsistently. Like which films? Well, 00:24:49.940 --> 00:24:51.960 we saw films like Eternals sink dramatically 00:24:51.960 --> 00:24:55.539 to a 47 % Rotten Tomatoes score, and crucially, 00:24:55.640 --> 00:24:59.440 only a mid -range B Cinema score. Ouch. A B is 00:24:59.440 --> 00:25:01.900 not good for a blockbuster. No, for these budgets, 00:25:01.960 --> 00:25:04.539 a B is worrying. Ant -Man and the Wasp, Quantumania 00:25:04.539 --> 00:25:08.200 performed similarly, 46 % RT, also a B cinema 00:25:08.200 --> 00:25:10.559 score. So consistency is dropping. And even the 00:25:10.559 --> 00:25:13.319 forthcoming Captain America. Brave New World 00:25:13.319 --> 00:25:15.640 reports suggest it's tracking low based on early 00:25:15.640 --> 00:25:18.960 screenings, 46 % RT again, and potentially a 00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:22.039 B cinema score. B minus. Yeah, that would terrify 00:25:22.039 --> 00:25:25.200 executives. Absolutely. This lack of consistency, 00:25:25.400 --> 00:25:28.119 especially hitting that B or B cinema score range. 00:25:28.329 --> 00:25:31.309 that provided the clear impetus for Iger's mandate 00:25:31.309 --> 00:25:35.069 to pull back, refocus, and ensure quality. But 00:25:35.069 --> 00:25:36.890 there was a recent positive exception, right? 00:25:36.990 --> 00:25:39.470 One that proved the formula still works, provided 00:25:39.470 --> 00:25:41.930 the quality, and maybe the uniqueness is there. 00:25:42.089 --> 00:25:45.569 Yes, Deadpool and Wolverine. It achieved a solid 00:25:45.569 --> 00:25:48.329 78 % Rotten Tomatoes score, which is good for 00:25:48.329 --> 00:25:50.869 that type of film. But critically, it got an 00:25:50.869 --> 00:25:53.289 audience -affirming... a cinema score and it 00:25:53.289 --> 00:25:56.490 made a ton of money a massive 1 .338 billion 00:25:56.490 --> 00:25:59.250 dollars worldwide gross it shows that unique 00:25:59.250 --> 00:26:02.049 well -received properties maybe ones with a distinct 00:26:02.049 --> 00:26:04.910 voice they still resonate strongly and profitably 00:26:04.910 --> 00:26:07.410 but the scattershot approach of phase four and 00:26:07.410 --> 00:26:09.789 five clearly necessitated a strategic correction 00:26:09.789 --> 00:26:12.670 quality over quantity had to become the mantra 00:26:12.670 --> 00:26:15.230 again so the performance data forces a complete 00:26:15.230 --> 00:26:17.660 production correction Now we look ahead to Section 00:26:17.660 --> 00:26:20.619 6, the blueprint for the future, post -2027, 00:26:20.880 --> 00:26:23.160 where we see the immediate slate is already being 00:26:23.160 --> 00:26:25.599 adjusted to reflect this new quality control 00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:28.559 mandate. Right. One notable adjustment is Armor 00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:29.900 Wars. Remember, that was originally announced 00:26:29.900 --> 00:26:32.559 as a Disney Plus series. Yeah, starring Don Cheadle. 00:26:32.700 --> 00:26:34.779 Well, it was quietly reworked into a feature 00:26:34.779 --> 00:26:38.119 film instead, still starring Don Cheadle as James 00:26:38.119 --> 00:26:40.500 Rhodes' war machine. And this project is now 00:26:40.500 --> 00:26:42.660 confirmed to be set after the events of the Secret 00:26:42.660 --> 00:26:45.519 Invasion series. So, shifting from TV back to 00:26:45.519 --> 00:26:48.000 film. Is that part of the strategy? It seems 00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:50.779 so. Producer Nate Moore openly noted that this 00:26:50.779 --> 00:26:53.180 slowing down of projects and the shift from TV 00:26:53.180 --> 00:26:56.180 to film for some was part of the studio's efforts 00:26:56.180 --> 00:26:58.920 to reduce content output and focus resources 00:26:58.920 --> 00:27:01.740 on fewer, higher quality theatrical products. 00:27:01.980 --> 00:27:04.559 Makes sense. What else is on the immediate horizon? 00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:07.440 We also have Black Panther 3 in active development. 00:27:07.619 --> 00:27:09.700 That's obviously a major anchor for the future 00:27:09.700 --> 00:27:12.519 slate. Ryan Coogler is confirmed as the director. 00:27:12.740 --> 00:27:14.720 Is he working on it now? Active work will apparently 00:27:14.720 --> 00:27:17.299 begin after he completes his current non -Marvel 00:27:17.299 --> 00:27:20.279 film, Sinners. But importantly, Denzel Washington 00:27:20.279 --> 00:27:22.660 has been confirmed to be cast in a role in the 00:27:22.660 --> 00:27:25.660 third installment. Wow, Denzel Washington joining 00:27:25.660 --> 00:27:28.059 the MCU. Yeah, shows they are still attracting 00:27:28.059 --> 00:27:31.059 absolute top -tier talent, even amidst these 00:27:31.059 --> 00:27:33.910 shifts. But the biggest future focus... the character 00:27:33.910 --> 00:27:36.670 properties that will likely define the next saga 00:27:36.670 --> 00:27:40.089 after the multiverse. That's the untitled X -Men 00:27:40.089 --> 00:27:42.809 film, isn't it? Absolutely. Following the massive 00:27:42.809 --> 00:27:45.150 narrative reset that's expected after Avengers, 00:27:45.529 --> 00:27:48.630 Secret Wars, Phage confirmed this film will feature 00:27:48.630 --> 00:27:51.869 a completely recast X -Men team, starting fresh 00:27:51.869 --> 00:27:55.230 within the MCU. This is huge. This marks the 00:27:55.230 --> 00:27:57.109 start of the long view, doesn't it? Phage confirmed 00:27:57.109 --> 00:28:00.059 Marvel Studios has a plan stretching out. How 00:28:00.059 --> 00:28:03.799 far? Seven years through 2032. Wow. And the next 00:28:03.799 --> 00:28:06.700 large saga post -multiverse is expected to focus 00:28:06.700 --> 00:28:09.220 heavily on those characters inherited from the 00:28:09.220 --> 00:28:12.039 21st century Fox acquisition, specifically the 00:28:12.039 --> 00:28:14.480 X -Men and presumably the Fantastic Four as well. 00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:17.019 So the Fox characters are the next big pillar. 00:28:17.119 --> 00:28:20.029 Seems that way. Phage reportedly has a detailed, 00:28:20.130 --> 00:28:23.490 like, 10 -year plan specifically just for integrating 00:28:23.490 --> 00:28:26.190 the X -Men into the MCU continuity, indicating 00:28:26.190 --> 00:28:28.410 this is the next foundational build, similar 00:28:28.410 --> 00:28:30.829 to how Phase 1 built the Avengers. And the casting 00:28:30.829 --> 00:28:32.990 decision for this initial X -Men film is also 00:28:32.990 --> 00:28:35.369 highly strategic, isn't it? What's the plan there? 00:28:35.589 --> 00:28:38.670 It's planned to be a very youth -oriented, focused, 00:28:38.710 --> 00:28:42.210 and cast movie, with Jake Schreier, who directed 00:28:42.210 --> 00:28:44.950 Thunderbolts recently, confirmed to direct this 00:28:44.950 --> 00:28:47.559 one too. Youth oriented. So they're looking for 00:28:47.559 --> 00:28:50.640 the next generation. Exactly. That focus on youth 00:28:50.640 --> 00:28:52.859 suggests Marvel is looking to establish the next 00:28:52.859 --> 00:28:55.079 decade of stars, just like they did with Chris 00:28:55.079 --> 00:28:57.480 Evans, Chris Hemsworth, Scarlett Johansson way 00:28:57.480 --> 00:29:00.859 back in phase one. Build a new core. Are there 00:29:00.859 --> 00:29:03.279 any other long term projects bubbling under the 00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:06.279 surface? Yeah, a few fascinating ones that reflect 00:29:06.279 --> 00:29:08.700 the ongoing relationships Marvel is maintaining. 00:29:09.019 --> 00:29:11.759 There's still an unknown top secret project with 00:29:11.759 --> 00:29:14.059 Scarlett Johansson attached, but serving as a 00:29:14.059 --> 00:29:16.809 producer this time. Interesting. Not Black Widow 00:29:16.809 --> 00:29:19.710 related. Presumably not. The work on that was 00:29:19.710 --> 00:29:23.549 paused due to the 2023 WGA strike. Its status 00:29:23.549 --> 00:29:25.970 is a bit unclear, but it's still listed as in 00:29:25.970 --> 00:29:28.650 development. OK. And Ryan Reynolds, he's also 00:29:28.650 --> 00:29:31.069 independently exploring script treatments for 00:29:31.069 --> 00:29:33.589 an ensemble film centered on three or four X 00:29:33.589 --> 00:29:36.410 -Men characters alongside Deadpool. So Reynolds 00:29:36.410 --> 00:29:38.190 might be bringing some X -Men into his corner 00:29:38.190 --> 00:29:40.369 of the universe, too. Seems like key creative 00:29:40.369 --> 00:29:42.690 talent like Reynolds is being empowered to help 00:29:42.690 --> 00:29:45.349 shepherd these newly acquired properties, which 00:29:45.349 --> 00:29:48.250 could be smart. So the future clearly hinges 00:29:48.250 --> 00:29:52.170 on two central tensions, doesn't it? First, successfully 00:29:52.170 --> 00:29:55.210 integrating these massive legacy Fox properties, 00:29:55.329 --> 00:29:58.890 the X -Men, Fantastic Four. And second, maintaining 00:29:58.890 --> 00:30:01.529 this newfound financial discipline and focus 00:30:01.529 --> 00:30:04.670 on quality mandated by Disney leadership. That's 00:30:04.670 --> 00:30:06.849 it, exactly. And what stands out here when you 00:30:06.849 --> 00:30:09.210 synthesize it all is that constant difficult 00:30:09.210 --> 00:30:11.650 tension. It's always there between creative momentum 00:30:11.650 --> 00:30:15.950 and financial or strategic limits. Well... Marvel 00:30:15.950 --> 00:30:18.009 built the franchise by thinking like a comic 00:30:18.009 --> 00:30:19.990 book company, right? Individual stories occasionally 00:30:19.990 --> 00:30:22.809 merging for big events, smart, focused. But when 00:30:22.809 --> 00:30:25.230 they scaled up to like four films and eight TV 00:30:25.230 --> 00:30:27.650 shows in a single phase. Yeah, phase four felt 00:30:27.650 --> 00:30:29.869 overwhelming. The quality and the consistency 00:30:29.869 --> 00:30:31.930 suffered. You saw it in the reviews, the audience 00:30:31.930 --> 00:30:34.490 scores. And that led directly to the necessary 00:30:34.490 --> 00:30:37.190 intervention from Bob Iger to scale back the 00:30:37.190 --> 00:30:40.150 volume, cut the cost drastically. It was a correction. 00:30:40.529 --> 00:30:42.789 So we've covered this staggering transition of 00:30:42.789 --> 00:30:45.230 the MCU. We've seen it evolve from the... a really 00:30:45.230 --> 00:30:48.710 tightly wound six film per phase infinity saga 00:30:48.710 --> 00:30:51.589 where almost every plot thread felt essential. 00:30:51.829 --> 00:30:55.109 Very interconnected. Into the expansive, sometimes 00:30:55.109 --> 00:30:58.369 maybe bloated multiverse saga. Characterized 00:30:58.369 --> 00:31:01.349 by enormous overall financial success, yes, but 00:31:01.349 --> 00:31:05.089 requiring this sharp self -correction in output 00:31:05.089 --> 00:31:07.410 quantity and budget recently. And we know Marvel 00:31:07.410 --> 00:31:09.990 has contingency plans for everything. I mean, 00:31:09.990 --> 00:31:11.890 they managed to deal with securing the Spider 00:31:11.890 --> 00:31:14.549 -Man rights mid -saga. They navigated. a global 00:31:14.549 --> 00:31:17.549 pandemic. They plan for disruptions. Right. But 00:31:17.549 --> 00:31:20.470 sometimes those plans or just the internal priorities 00:31:20.470 --> 00:31:24.089 mean beloved creative ideas get shelved. Yeah. 00:31:24.170 --> 00:31:26.549 And that's not always a strategic decision based 00:31:26.549 --> 00:31:28.910 purely on interconnected plots or story necessity, 00:31:29.269 --> 00:31:31.589 is it? Yeah, let me give an example. Well, consider 00:31:31.589 --> 00:31:33.390 the Sheld Runaways phone project from years ago. 00:31:33.880 --> 00:31:36.059 Serves as a perfect example of internal friction, 00:31:36.180 --> 00:31:37.960 maybe. Runaways. I remember hearing about that. 00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:40.920 Brian K. Vaughn's comic. That's the one. Apparently, 00:31:40.920 --> 00:31:43.339 it had a solid script. It was envisioned as this 00:31:43.339 --> 00:31:46.940 fantastic, grounded, John Hughes -style teen 00:31:46.940 --> 00:31:49.480 movie within the Marvel Universe. Really unique. 00:31:49.660 --> 00:31:51.460 Sounds great. So why didn't it happen? Well, 00:31:51.480 --> 00:31:54.579 the project was shelved. First, in favor of pushing 00:31:54.579 --> 00:31:57.500 all resources entirely toward making the Avengers 00:31:57.500 --> 00:32:00.599 the biggest success possible. Understandable, 00:32:00.599 --> 00:32:03.279 maybe. OK, prioritizing the big team up. But 00:32:03.279 --> 00:32:06.140 later, the sources suggest, it stayed shelved 00:32:06.140 --> 00:32:08.539 because this centralized creative committee within 00:32:08.539 --> 00:32:11.599 Marvel at the time. They worry that the characters, 00:32:11.799 --> 00:32:14.880 these runaway teens, wouldn't fit the ideal demographic 00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:17.700 necessary to sell toys successfully. Wait, hold 00:32:17.700 --> 00:32:20.119 on. You mean a specific internal committee whose 00:32:20.119 --> 00:32:22.339 main priorities were merchandising potential 00:32:22.339 --> 00:32:25.859 and target demographics? They overrode a creatively 00:32:25.859 --> 00:32:28.720 sound, unique film project based on toy sales. 00:32:29.059 --> 00:32:31.240 That's what the reporting suggests. It implies 00:32:31.240 --> 00:32:33.039 the financial tail or maybe the merchandising 00:32:33.039 --> 00:32:35.660 tail was wagging the creative dog even back in 00:32:35.660 --> 00:32:38.460 those seemingly golden early days. Wow. That 00:32:38.460 --> 00:32:40.740 suggests the power was highly centralized and 00:32:40.740 --> 00:32:43.079 maybe prioritized marketing synergy over taking 00:32:43.079 --> 00:32:45.359 a creative risk on something different. Exactly. 00:32:45.420 --> 00:32:47.500 And this raises an important question for you, 00:32:47.519 --> 00:32:49.319 the listener, as we move forward into this new 00:32:49.319 --> 00:32:53.019 era. Given the new strict focus on budget reduction, 00:32:53.240 --> 00:32:56.160 the mandated search for efficiency, like studying 00:32:56.160 --> 00:32:58.799 the creator for tips and this top -down quality 00:32:58.799 --> 00:33:02.509 control. Are we watching Marvel Studios return 00:33:02.509 --> 00:33:06.349 to an era where maybe financial projections and 00:33:06.349 --> 00:33:08.809 merchandising potential start dictating creative 00:33:08.809 --> 00:33:11.450 choices more heavily again? More heavily perhaps 00:33:11.450 --> 00:33:14.549 than that initial thrill of discovery that launched 00:33:14.549 --> 00:33:16.829 the entire franchise. You know, the thrill that 00:33:16.829 --> 00:33:19.730 came from a grounded, ambitious, character -focused 00:33:19.730 --> 00:33:23.289 movie about a billionaire in a metal suit that 00:33:23.289 --> 00:33:25.619 nobody was sure would work. That tension between 00:33:25.619 --> 00:33:27.779 art and commerce, it's the very core of this 00:33:27.779 --> 00:33:29.859 entire business structure, isn't it? It absolutely 00:33:29.859 --> 00:33:31.799 is. And it's something to consider as we brace 00:33:31.799 --> 00:33:34.000 for the final, presumably budget -controlled 00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:36.440 conclusions to the saga in Doomsday and Secret 00:33:36.440 --> 00:33:39.700 Wars coming in 2026 and 2027. We'll definitely 00:33:39.700 --> 00:33:41.539 be here to track those budgets and the creative 00:33:41.539 --> 00:33:43.140 swings every step of the way.