WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.960 Welcome to the Deep Dive. Our mission here is, 00:00:03.140 --> 00:00:05.919 well, it's to take these huge, sometimes sprawling 00:00:05.919 --> 00:00:08.699 source materials. Could be geopolitics, could 00:00:08.699 --> 00:00:11.720 be... you know, 11 seasons of a TV show and really 00:00:11.720 --> 00:00:13.720 break them down for you. We want to deliver the 00:00:13.720 --> 00:00:17.920 key insights, the drama behind the scenes, the 00:00:17.920 --> 00:00:20.320 surprising technical stuff, basically the things 00:00:20.320 --> 00:00:22.600 that take you from just watching to really understanding. 00:00:22.899 --> 00:00:24.679 And today, yeah, we are definitely strapping 00:00:24.679 --> 00:00:27.160 in. We're doing a forensic deep dive into, I 00:00:27.160 --> 00:00:30.420 mean, a true giant of cable television. AMC's 00:00:30.420 --> 00:00:32.420 The Walking Dead. This show is just a juggernaut. 00:00:32.500 --> 00:00:36.859 It ran for 11 seasons, 177 episodes, kicked off 00:00:36.859 --> 00:00:39.520 on Halloween, October 31st. first 2010, which 00:00:39.520 --> 00:00:41.200 is fitting, right? Very fitting. And it ran all 00:00:41.200 --> 00:00:43.759 the way through November 20th, 2022. And it's 00:00:43.759 --> 00:00:45.679 all based, of course, on those incredible graphic 00:00:45.679 --> 00:00:47.780 novels by Robert Kirkman, Tony Moore and Charlie 00:00:47.780 --> 00:00:50.009 Adler. Now, we're not just going to give you 00:00:50.009 --> 00:00:52.810 a like a season by season plot summary here, 00:00:52.909 --> 00:00:55.229 because honestly, the story of The Walking Dead 00:00:55.229 --> 00:00:57.149 is so much bigger than just what happened on 00:00:57.149 --> 00:00:59.310 screen. We're here to look at how the story itself 00:00:59.310 --> 00:01:02.729 evolved, dig into the production side, which 00:01:02.729 --> 00:01:05.170 was pretty turbulent at times, and maybe most 00:01:05.170 --> 00:01:07.810 importantly, unpack these like really astonishing 00:01:07.810 --> 00:01:10.310 financial and legal fights that were going on 00:01:10.310 --> 00:01:12.310 completely behind the scenes of this massive 00:01:12.310 --> 00:01:14.689 hit. Right. But first, just to set the scene 00:01:14.689 --> 00:01:18.670 for anyone maybe less familiar. The basic setup 00:01:18.670 --> 00:01:22.010 involves two major constant conflicts. First, 00:01:22.209 --> 00:01:24.719 obviously the immediate danger. The zombies, 00:01:24.859 --> 00:01:26.900 or walkers as the survivors call them. Walkers, 00:01:26.920 --> 00:01:29.260 yeah. They're your classic slow -moving horror 00:01:29.260 --> 00:01:32.780 type, drawn to noise, drawn to scent. And the 00:01:32.780 --> 00:01:34.739 only way to really stop them for good is, well, 00:01:34.840 --> 00:01:36.739 destroy the brain. And there's that extra layer 00:01:36.739 --> 00:01:38.700 of dread, isn't there? That idea established 00:01:38.700 --> 00:01:41.079 pretty early on, it's never fully confirmed maybe, 00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:43.980 but everyone operates as if it's true, that everyone 00:01:43.980 --> 00:01:46.159 is infected. Exactly. That's the kicker. You 00:01:46.159 --> 00:01:48.340 die for any reason, walker bite, gunshot, heart 00:01:48.340 --> 00:01:50.239 attack, whatever, you come back. Yeah. Unless 00:01:50.239 --> 00:01:52.900 the brain's destroyed first. It just ramps up 00:01:52.900 --> 00:01:55.560 the tension constantly. Survival isn't just about 00:01:55.560 --> 00:01:58.500 avoiding bites. It's about managing death itself. 00:01:58.980 --> 00:02:01.700 Every single death. Which naturally leads to 00:02:01.700 --> 00:02:04.859 the second and arguably more interesting conflict 00:02:04.859 --> 00:02:08.000 over time. Right. The human element. Once society 00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:10.520 just collapses, people have to form new groups. 00:02:10.719 --> 00:02:12.780 Sometimes it's small families. Sometimes it's 00:02:12.780 --> 00:02:15.560 these big fortified towns. And inevitably, they 00:02:15.560 --> 00:02:19.310 clash. Over food, over land, over, well, just 00:02:19.310 --> 00:02:21.789 fundamentally different ideas about how to live 00:02:21.789 --> 00:02:25.009 now, what rules apply, what morals. And it all 00:02:25.009 --> 00:02:27.870 kicks off, as most people know, with our protagonist, 00:02:28.110 --> 00:02:30.530 Sheriff's Deputy Rick Grimes. Wakes up from a 00:02:30.530 --> 00:02:32.310 coma, King County, Georgia. Finds the world's 00:02:32.310 --> 00:02:34.569 completely changed, utter chaos. And so begins 00:02:34.569 --> 00:02:37.270 this, like, incredibly long, desperate, often 00:02:37.270 --> 00:02:39.930 really brutal journey to find his family. And 00:02:39.930 --> 00:02:41.770 that search, that journey, pretty much defined 00:02:41.770 --> 00:02:43.770 the next decade of the show. You know, if you 00:02:43.770 --> 00:02:46.129 look at the show's arc. Not just like season 00:02:46.129 --> 00:02:48.349 one, season two, etc. But think about what they 00:02:48.349 --> 00:02:50.449 were fighting for at different stages. What kind 00:02:50.449 --> 00:02:52.310 of security they were searching for. You can 00:02:52.310 --> 00:02:54.530 actually map out the big thematic shifts pretty 00:02:54.530 --> 00:02:57.050 clearly across the whole run. Okay, I like that 00:02:57.050 --> 00:02:59.310 framing. Let's try that. So the first couple 00:02:59.310 --> 00:03:02.629 of seasons, S1 and S2, that feels like the search 00:03:02.629 --> 00:03:05.009 and loss arc, maybe. Yeah, I think that works. 00:03:05.569 --> 00:03:08.860 Rick finds his group near Atlanta. Right. Lori, 00:03:09.000 --> 00:03:12.520 Carl, Shane. And they make that desperate trip 00:03:12.520 --> 00:03:15.159 to the CDC, the Centers for Disease Control. 00:03:15.439 --> 00:03:18.099 Hoping for answers. Right. And all they find 00:03:18.099 --> 00:03:21.439 is that chilling confirmation. No cure yet. Basically, 00:03:21.479 --> 00:03:23.860 the world is gone. Which sends them looking for 00:03:23.860 --> 00:03:26.919 shelter, leading to season two and Herschel Green's 00:03:26.919 --> 00:03:31.979 farm. And that farm represents this sort of false 00:03:31.979 --> 00:03:34.400 sense of security. But it's where the internal 00:03:34.400 --> 00:03:36.699 drama really starts to cook. Right. You've got 00:03:36.699 --> 00:03:38.580 the whole search for Sophia, Carol's daughter. 00:03:38.699 --> 00:03:41.180 The love triangle, basically, between Rick, Lori, 00:03:41.340 --> 00:03:43.639 and Shane, which gets incredibly volatile. And 00:03:43.639 --> 00:03:45.560 Lori's pregnant in the middle of all this. Yeah. 00:03:45.680 --> 00:03:47.719 And then there's Herschel's conflict. He's keeping 00:03:47.719 --> 00:03:49.979 walkers locked up in his barn. Including Sophia, 00:03:50.219 --> 00:03:52.819 as it turns out. Including Sophia, because he 00:03:52.819 --> 00:03:55.560 believed, or maybe just desperately hoped, they 00:03:55.560 --> 00:03:58.300 could be cured somehow. Finding Sophia in that 00:03:58.300 --> 00:04:01.520 barn, and then Rick having to kill Shane, who'd 00:04:01.520 --> 00:04:04.129 completely gone off the rails. That just shattered 00:04:04.129 --> 00:04:06.909 any illusion of safety there. Absolutely. Force 00:04:06.909 --> 00:04:09.849 them out. Force them to accept the harsh reality, 00:04:10.069 --> 00:04:13.030 which pushes them into, let's call it the next 00:04:13.030 --> 00:04:15.870 phase, establishment and external war, seasons 00:04:15.870 --> 00:04:19.149 three and four. The prison era. Exactly. After 00:04:19.149 --> 00:04:21.029 eight months on the road, they find and secure 00:04:21.029 --> 00:04:24.550 that prison. It feels like, finally, a defensible 00:04:24.550 --> 00:04:27.290 position. But stability is short -lived, because 00:04:27.290 --> 00:04:30.160 then comes... The governor. Ah, the governor. 00:04:30.279 --> 00:04:34.480 Their first major human antagonist leading Woodbury. 00:04:34.620 --> 00:04:36.720 That seemingly perfect little town. Which was 00:04:36.720 --> 00:04:39.000 anything but. Oh, totally rotten underneath. 00:04:39.199 --> 00:04:41.680 And that conflict, that war with Woodbury, it 00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:44.560 cost them so much. Laurie dies during childbirth, 00:04:44.579 --> 00:04:46.360 an emergency C -section, right? Yeah, brutal. 00:04:46.560 --> 00:04:49.680 Which sends Rick spiraling, seeing hallucinations 00:04:49.680 --> 00:04:52.019 of her. And Andre dies in the final conflict 00:04:52.019 --> 00:04:54.680 with the governor, too. Woodbury Falls, its people 00:04:54.680 --> 00:04:57.079 joined the prison group, but the cost was immense. 00:04:57.439 --> 00:04:59.860 And even after winning that war, the threats 00:04:59.860 --> 00:05:02.800 just keep coming. Season four reminds them that 00:05:02.800 --> 00:05:05.040 it's not just other people. The killer flu. Yeah, 00:05:05.079 --> 00:05:07.639 that deadly flu rips through the prison population, 00:05:07.959 --> 00:05:10.639 shows how vulnerable they still are, even behind 00:05:10.639 --> 00:05:13.300 walls. And then the governor comes back, like 00:05:13.300 --> 00:05:16.800 a bad penny. He does. For one last devastating 00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:19.980 attack, he kills Herschel. Oh, Herschel's death. 00:05:20.040 --> 00:05:22.199 That was a gut punch. Right in front of everyone. 00:05:22.360 --> 00:05:24.639 It really was. That attack basically destroyed 00:05:24.639 --> 00:05:27.540 the prison as a safe haven. The group gets scattered 00:05:27.540 --> 00:05:29.819 to the winds, all heading supposedly towards 00:05:29.819 --> 00:05:33.279 this place called Terminus. Ah, Terminus. Those 00:05:33.279 --> 00:05:36.879 who arrive, survive. Which leads us into the 00:05:36.879 --> 00:05:40.920 next era. Maybe The Human Extremes, seasons five 00:05:40.920 --> 00:05:43.120 and six. I think that fits. Because Terminus, 00:05:43.120 --> 00:05:45.680 well, Terminus wasn't a sanctuary. No, they were 00:05:45.680 --> 00:05:48.199 cannibals. Yep. The residents were luring people 00:05:48.199 --> 00:05:50.699 in and eating them. Just horrific. And Carol, 00:05:50.740 --> 00:05:52.879 again, steps up massively there. Leads the charge 00:05:52.879 --> 00:05:55.060 to free everyone. She really became formidable, 00:05:55.199 --> 00:05:57.319 didn't she? That whole experience, escaping Terminus, 00:05:57.420 --> 00:05:59.600 it pushes them towards Virginia and eventually 00:05:59.600 --> 00:06:02.540 Alexandria. Alexandria safe zone. Looks perfect, 00:06:02.740 --> 00:06:06.639 right? Walls, houses. Looks perfect. But the 00:06:06.639 --> 00:06:09.800 people inside are soft. They've been protected. 00:06:09.920 --> 00:06:11.959 They haven't faced the real world out there. 00:06:12.379 --> 00:06:16.089 They're naive. Dangerously so. And Rick sees 00:06:16.089 --> 00:06:18.149 that immediately. He clashes with them, especially 00:06:18.149 --> 00:06:20.089 with Pete, Jesse Anderson's abusive husband. 00:06:20.329 --> 00:06:23.189 Right. And that culminates in Deanna Monroe, 00:06:23.449 --> 00:06:26.769 the leader, basically giving Rick the order or 00:06:26.769 --> 00:06:30.129 maybe the permission to kill Pete. That felt 00:06:30.129 --> 00:06:32.089 like a turning point. Rick essentially taking 00:06:32.089 --> 00:06:34.870 control, imposing his harder view of the world 00:06:34.870 --> 00:06:37.350 on Alexandria. It was. He knew they weren't ready. 00:06:37.629 --> 00:06:40.490 And season six proves him right. Alexandria's 00:06:40.490 --> 00:06:42.980 fragility just... Shatters. It's the wolves attack. 00:06:43.319 --> 00:06:45.439 Using a massive walker horde as cover. Yeah. 00:06:45.579 --> 00:06:47.800 The Anna dies. The Anderson family dies. It's 00:06:47.800 --> 00:06:50.040 chaos. And then just when they start to maybe 00:06:50.040 --> 00:06:52.660 recover. Yeah. They run into the savior. The 00:06:52.660 --> 00:06:55.439 saviors. Led by Negan. This is the next big external 00:06:55.439 --> 00:06:56.839 threat, but different for the governor. They're 00:06:56.839 --> 00:06:58.639 not about taking over. They're about extortion. 00:06:58.720 --> 00:07:01.339 Give us half your stuff. Basically. Yeah. Absolute 00:07:01.339 --> 00:07:04.240 rule through fear and brutality, which leads 00:07:04.240 --> 00:07:07.939 directly to that infamous season six finale cliffhanger. 00:07:09.279 --> 00:07:12.139 Someone's going to die. That wait was agonizing, 00:07:12.160 --> 00:07:14.420 which sets up totalitarian rule and revolution 00:07:14.420 --> 00:07:16.860 season seven and eight. Season seven opens with 00:07:16.860 --> 00:07:21.379 just pure brutality. Negan kills Abraham and 00:07:21.379 --> 00:07:24.160 Glenn, bashes their heads in with his bat -loose 00:07:24.160 --> 00:07:27.040 seal. It was shocking. Controversial, even. So 00:07:27.040 --> 00:07:29.800 graphic. Absolutely. And it works, initially. 00:07:30.120 --> 00:07:33.180 Rick submits. He's broken. But not for long. 00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:35.870 Michonne pushes him, right? Tells him this isn't 00:07:35.870 --> 00:07:38.930 living. She does. And slowly, they start to build 00:07:38.930 --> 00:07:42.189 resistance. They form alliances with Hilltop, 00:07:42.230 --> 00:07:45.009 with the kingdom. King Ezekiel and Shiva the 00:07:45.009 --> 00:07:47.769 tiger. Can't forget Shiva. And even reluctantly 00:07:47.769 --> 00:07:50.370 with the scavengers, they prepare for war. Season 00:07:50.370 --> 00:07:53.430 8 is just all -out war. Constant battles, shifting 00:07:53.430 --> 00:07:56.009 tides. Alexandria falls at one point. Huge losses 00:07:56.009 --> 00:07:58.370 on both sides. But the real turning point, the 00:07:58.370 --> 00:08:00.610 moral one, comes late in the season. Carl. Carl 00:08:00.610 --> 00:08:03.529 gets bitten by a walker. Wasn't even in a big 00:08:03.529 --> 00:08:06.089 fight, just... Bad luck. And before he dies, 00:08:06.189 --> 00:08:09.269 he makes Rick promise. Yeah. His dying wish is 00:08:09.269 --> 00:08:11.990 for Rick to find a way to make peace, to stop 00:08:11.990 --> 00:08:14.670 the killing. My mercy prevails over my wrath. 00:08:14.990 --> 00:08:17.230 That changes everything for Rick. It leads to 00:08:17.230 --> 00:08:19.670 Eugene sabotaging the Savior's bullets. Right, 00:08:19.730 --> 00:08:21.949 makes their guns backfire. And in the final confrontation, 00:08:22.350 --> 00:08:26.750 Rick wounds Negan, but he doesn't kill him. He 00:08:26.750 --> 00:08:29.509 spares him, cuts his throat, but saves his life, 00:08:29.610 --> 00:08:33.129 then imprisons him, honoring Carl's wish. trying 00:08:33.129 --> 00:08:35.389 to build something resembling civilization again. 00:08:35.490 --> 00:08:38.210 Which sets the stage for the final act, Collapse 00:08:38.210 --> 00:08:40.889 and Rebuilding, seasons 9 through 11. Season 00:08:40.889 --> 00:08:44.149 9 starts 18 months later. Rick's trying to build 00:08:44.149 --> 00:08:46.830 bridges, literally and figuratively, between 00:08:46.830 --> 00:08:49.389 the communities. But it's fragile, and it leads 00:08:49.389 --> 00:08:52.549 to Rick's, well, his supposed death, blowing 00:08:52.549 --> 00:08:54.809 up that bridge to save the others. Right. We 00:08:54.809 --> 00:08:57.110 know now he survived, taken away in a helicopter. 00:08:57.570 --> 00:09:00.389 But for the characters, he was gone. And that 00:09:00.389 --> 00:09:02.389 leads to a six -year time jump. And when we come 00:09:02.389 --> 00:09:05.269 back, the communities are estranged, isolated, 00:09:05.590 --> 00:09:08.470 and there's a new threat lurking. The Whisperers, 00:09:08.490 --> 00:09:11.929 led by Alpha. This was a really different kind 00:09:11.929 --> 00:09:14.330 of enemy. Creepy as hell. Wearing walker skins, 00:09:14.570 --> 00:09:16.970 moving among the dead, controlling huge hordes. 00:09:17.129 --> 00:09:19.450 They were terrifying. And Alpha was ruthless. 00:09:19.629 --> 00:09:22.610 That massacre at the fair. Putting heads on pikes 00:09:22.610 --> 00:09:24.970 to mark her territory. After her daughter, Lydia, 00:09:25.169 --> 00:09:27.669 chose to stay with the communities. Just brutal. 00:09:27.830 --> 00:09:30.429 Their threat really dominated Season 10. Carol 00:09:30.429 --> 00:09:33.210 uses Negan. Basically lets him out. To infiltrate 00:09:33.210 --> 00:09:35.570 the Whisperers. Yeah, and he does. He kills Alpha, 00:09:35.750 --> 00:09:39.009 which was, you know, complicated but effective. 00:09:39.389 --> 00:09:41.409 Then they deal with Beta, Alpha's second -in 00:09:41.409 --> 00:09:43.789 -command, and the rest of the Horde. A huge final 00:09:43.789 --> 00:09:46.629 battle. Yep. And also in Season 10, Michonne 00:09:46.629 --> 00:09:49.309 finds proof that Rick might still be alive and 00:09:49.309 --> 00:09:51.809 leaves to find him, setting up their own spinoff 00:09:51.809 --> 00:09:54.269 later. Right. Which brings us to the final season, 00:09:54.490 --> 00:09:57.769 Season 11, and the Commonwealth. The Commonwealth, 00:09:57.789 --> 00:10:00.389 this huge advanced community, almost like the 00:10:00.389 --> 00:10:04.850 Old World. But deeply flawed. A rigid class system, 00:10:04.929 --> 00:10:07.090 corruption at the top with Governor Pamela Milton. 00:10:07.370 --> 00:10:09.549 Exactly. So the final conflict isn't against 00:10:09.549 --> 00:10:12.129 walkers or psychos. It's a revolution against 00:10:12.129 --> 00:10:15.769 a corrupt system. Our group, the Coalition, leads 00:10:15.769 --> 00:10:18.129 the charge. The series wraps up with some big 00:10:18.129 --> 00:10:21.070 moments. Rosita dies saving her daughter. That 00:10:21.070 --> 00:10:25.070 was rough. Yeah, really tragic. But also, Maggie 00:10:25.070 --> 00:10:28.730 finally kind of accepts Negan as an ally. A huge 00:10:28.730 --> 00:10:30.960 moment of growth for her. Ezekiel becomes the 00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:33.360 new, hopefully better, governor of the Commonwealth. 00:10:33.700 --> 00:10:36.399 And Daryl. Oh, well, Daryl heads off on his own 00:10:36.399 --> 00:10:39.340 to see who else is out there. Which, of course, 00:10:39.399 --> 00:10:41.519 leads directly into a spinoff. A neat way to 00:10:41.519 --> 00:10:43.879 end the main story while throwing the doors open 00:10:43.879 --> 00:10:46.559 for the future of the franchise. Okay, thinking 00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:49.000 about moments like Carl dying or Rick leaving. 00:10:49.500 --> 00:10:52.360 It really highlights something core to this show, 00:10:52.440 --> 00:10:55.700 doesn't it? The constant churn of the cast. People 00:10:55.700 --> 00:10:59.759 died. A lot. Oh, absolutely. For a survival horror 00:10:59.759 --> 00:11:03.039 show to work, the stakes have to be real. Characters 00:11:03.039 --> 00:11:05.899 you love have to die, often shockingly. But at 00:11:05.899 --> 00:11:07.960 the same time, you need anchors, right? Characters 00:11:07.960 --> 00:11:09.639 who stick around and give the audience someone 00:11:09.639 --> 00:11:11.919 to root for long term. Definitely. And when you 00:11:11.919 --> 00:11:13.980 talk about the anchors of The Walking Dead, two 00:11:13.980 --> 00:11:16.539 names immediately jump out. Norman Reedus as 00:11:16.539 --> 00:11:18.879 Daryl Dixon. Fan favorite from day one, pretty 00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:21.519 much. Totally. The quiet competence, the crossbow, 00:11:21.720 --> 00:11:24.460 Rick's right -hand man. He just embodied survival 00:11:24.460 --> 00:11:27.000 skill. And the other one has to be Melissa McBride 00:11:27.000 --> 00:11:29.840 as Carol Pelletier. Carol's journey is maybe 00:11:29.840 --> 00:11:31.659 the most incredible transformation in the entire 00:11:31.659 --> 00:11:35.120 series. Season one, she's this meek, abused woman 00:11:35.120 --> 00:11:37.960 by the end. She's one of the most capable, ruthless, 00:11:38.220 --> 00:11:41.480 and complice survivors there is, making impossible 00:11:41.480 --> 00:11:45.080 decisions. Exactly. Her arc really shows how 00:11:45.080 --> 00:11:47.000 the apocalypse fundamentally changes people, 00:11:47.200 --> 00:11:50.039 sometimes strengthening them, even if it means... 00:11:50.429 --> 00:11:52.389 You know, breaking bad sometimes. Now, speaking 00:11:52.389 --> 00:11:55.389 of Daryl, this is where the show's relationship 00:11:55.389 --> 00:11:57.250 with the comics gets really interesting, isn't 00:11:57.250 --> 00:12:00.350 it? Because Daryl... He's not in the comics. 00:12:00.470 --> 00:12:03.230 Mm -hmm. At all. Created entirely for the show. 00:12:03.429 --> 00:12:05.649 Which was kind of a masterstroke, looking back. 00:12:05.909 --> 00:12:08.470 Oh, absolutely. The producers said it themselves. 00:12:08.870 --> 00:12:11.970 Having a major, beloved character with no comic 00:12:11.970 --> 00:12:14.289 book counterpart meant nobody knew what would 00:12:14.289 --> 00:12:17.409 happen to him. Even hardcore comic readers couldn't 00:12:17.409 --> 00:12:19.860 predict his fate. Kept everyone guessing. Total 00:12:19.860 --> 00:12:22.000 unpredictability. But they also play games the 00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:24.500 other way, right? Taking deaths from the comics 00:12:24.500 --> 00:12:26.259 but giving them to different characters on the 00:12:26.259 --> 00:12:28.000 show. Yeah, they called it transferring deaths. 00:12:28.360 --> 00:12:30.980 It was clever. They knew a certain death had 00:12:30.980 --> 00:12:33.320 a huge impact in the comics, but maybe they wanted 00:12:33.320 --> 00:12:35.399 to keep that comic character alive on the show 00:12:35.399 --> 00:12:38.320 for longer or maybe give that impactful death 00:12:38.320 --> 00:12:41.379 to a character the show's audience was more invested 00:12:41.379 --> 00:12:44.000 in. Like Herschel. Herschel's death is the prime 00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:47.379 example. In the comics, it's Tyrese who the governor 00:12:47.379 --> 00:12:49.779 publicly executes like that. Right. The beheading. 00:12:49.779 --> 00:12:53.360 Yeah. But on the show, giving that horrific death 00:12:53.360 --> 00:12:57.919 to Herschel, this kind, moral father figure played 00:12:57.919 --> 00:13:00.879 so well by Scott Wilson, it just landed with 00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:03.320 incredible emotional weight for the TV audience. 00:13:03.440 --> 00:13:06.159 Made the governor seem even more monstrous. And 00:13:06.159 --> 00:13:08.539 sometimes characters who are huge in the comics 00:13:08.539 --> 00:13:11.919 just didn't last as long on screen. Like Andrea 00:13:11.919 --> 00:13:15.169 or Sophia. Right. Both had much longer, more 00:13:15.169 --> 00:13:17.409 significant arcs in the comics. Andrea especially 00:13:17.409 --> 00:13:20.370 becomes a major leader. But the show took them 00:13:20.370 --> 00:13:22.190 in different directions, killed them off much 00:13:22.190 --> 00:13:24.149 earlier. And then Carol is the opposite. Her 00:13:24.149 --> 00:13:26.669 comic counterpart died way earlier. Way earlier, 00:13:26.909 --> 00:13:29.330 yeah. Her transformation into the powerhouse 00:13:29.330 --> 00:13:32.679 we saw on TV is purely a show invention. So this 00:13:32.679 --> 00:13:35.120 constant remixing kept even comic fans on their 00:13:35.120 --> 00:13:38.159 toes. No one was truly safe. But people didn't 00:13:38.159 --> 00:13:40.759 just leave because a walker got them or a villain 00:13:40.759 --> 00:13:43.559 showed up. There were major exits driven by real 00:13:43.559 --> 00:13:46.080 world stuff, too. For sure. Contract negotiations, 00:13:46.379 --> 00:13:48.299 actors wanting to do other projects, personal 00:13:48.299 --> 00:13:50.860 reasons. The biggest one, obviously, Andrew Lincoln 00:13:50.860 --> 00:13:53.059 leaving as Rick Grimes in season nine. Yeah, 00:13:53.159 --> 00:13:55.580 that was huge. And he was pretty upfront about 00:13:55.580 --> 00:13:58.580 it. Filming for... Six, seven months a year in 00:13:58.580 --> 00:14:01.279 the Georgia heat? Being away from his young family 00:14:01.279 --> 00:14:05.519 back in the UK? It just became too much. Understandable, 00:14:05.559 --> 00:14:08.440 really. Totally. But his exit caused a huge stir. 00:14:09.159 --> 00:14:12.100 AMC immediately tried to manage it by promising 00:14:12.100 --> 00:14:15.100 Rick would return in, like, a trilogy of theatrical 00:14:15.100 --> 00:14:18.179 movies. Which never happened. No, those plans 00:14:18.179 --> 00:14:22.279 kept shifting. Eventually, by July 2022, they 00:14:22.279 --> 00:14:24.100 announced it would be a six -episode limited 00:14:24.100 --> 00:14:27.950 series instead. The Ones Who Live. reuniting 00:14:27.950 --> 00:14:30.850 him with Danai Gurira's Michonne. Right, because 00:14:30.850 --> 00:14:33.429 she also left the main show in season 10. Yeah, 00:14:33.450 --> 00:14:35.250 she had other acting projects, writing opportunities. 00:14:35.610 --> 00:14:37.809 Another major departure the show had to navigate. 00:14:38.049 --> 00:14:39.990 And sometimes actors didn't leave the universe 00:14:39.990 --> 00:14:42.370 entirely, they just moved house, so to speak. 00:14:42.610 --> 00:14:44.730 Exactly. Lenny James, who played Morgan Jones 00:14:44.730 --> 00:14:46.470 right back in the pilot. Then came back later. 00:14:46.509 --> 00:14:48.370 Then came back, yeah. He was the first big one 00:14:48.370 --> 00:14:50.610 to cross over, moving his character over to spin 00:14:50.610 --> 00:14:53.470 -off Fear the Walking Dead after season 8 of 00:14:53.470 --> 00:14:55.850 the main show. And Austin Emilio, who played 00:14:55.850 --> 00:14:58.659 Dwight. followed him over there later too. Mm 00:14:58.659 --> 00:15:01.679 -hmm. It showed AMC was thinking about this as 00:15:01.679 --> 00:15:04.480 a connected universe early on. And you also had 00:15:04.480 --> 00:15:07.120 cases like Lauren Cohan, Maggie. She left for 00:15:07.120 --> 00:15:09.659 a bit, didn't she? She did. There was reportedly 00:15:09.659 --> 00:15:12.559 a contract dispute, and she went off to star 00:15:12.559 --> 00:15:15.639 in another show, Whiskey Cavalier. Which didn't 00:15:15.639 --> 00:15:18.379 last long, I remember that. No. And so she was 00:15:18.379 --> 00:15:20.399 able to return to The Walking Dead as a series 00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:23.580 regular for the final season, season 11. But 00:15:23.580 --> 00:15:26.200 it just shows even core characters weren't always 00:15:26.200 --> 00:15:28.659 locked in. Network TV business still applied. 00:15:29.500 --> 00:15:31.860 Fascinating. One last little casting tidbit. 00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:34.720 The Frank Darabont connection, the first showrunner. 00:15:34.799 --> 00:15:36.580 Oh, yeah. Darabont definitely liked working with 00:15:36.580 --> 00:15:39.039 people he knew. He brought several actors over 00:15:39.039 --> 00:15:41.559 from his movie The Mist. Laurie Holden, who played 00:15:41.559 --> 00:15:43.740 Andrea. Jeffrey DeMunn, who played Dale. And 00:15:43.740 --> 00:15:46.279 Melissa McBride, Carol herself. All three were 00:15:46.279 --> 00:15:47.960 in The Mist. It was like it's a little apocalypse 00:15:47.960 --> 00:15:50.720 repertory company. And the biggest what if, Thomas 00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:52.799 Jane was originally going to be Rick Grimes. 00:15:53.240 --> 00:15:55.379 That's the story, yeah. When Darabont was first 00:15:55.379 --> 00:15:57.220 developing the show, apparently pitching it to 00:15:57.220 --> 00:16:00.320 HBO before it landed at AMC, Thomas Jane was 00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:02.820 attached to play Rick. Wow. It's almost impossible 00:16:02.820 --> 00:16:05.039 to imagine anyone but Andrew Lincoln in that 00:16:05.039 --> 00:16:06.700 role now. The whole feel of the show might have 00:16:06.700 --> 00:16:09.559 been different. Completely different. Crazy to 00:16:09.559 --> 00:16:12.399 think about. Okay, so shifting gears from the 00:16:12.399 --> 00:16:15.570 actors and characters to the actual... like nuts 00:16:15.570 --> 00:16:18.009 and bolts of making this thing. The production 00:16:18.009 --> 00:16:21.029 itself was a massive, complex machine. And one 00:16:21.029 --> 00:16:23.309 defined, especially early on, by some serious 00:16:23.309 --> 00:16:26.190 turbulence at the top. The showrunner carousel, 00:16:26.190 --> 00:16:28.330 you could call it. Right. Frank Darabont, who 00:16:28.330 --> 00:16:30.970 developed it, wrote and directed the pilot. Brilliant 00:16:30.970 --> 00:16:33.429 start. But he was fired halfway through filming 00:16:33.429 --> 00:16:36.250 season two. And it wasn't amicable, was it? Not 00:16:36.250 --> 00:16:38.870 at all. It got very messy, very public later 00:16:38.870 --> 00:16:42.870 on. Disputes over budget cuts AMC wanted. Darabont 00:16:42.870 --> 00:16:44.769 feeling the network was undermining the show's 00:16:44.769 --> 00:16:48.289 quality and, as we'll get into, serious claims 00:16:48.289 --> 00:16:50.669 about shady business practices. So Darabont's 00:16:50.669 --> 00:16:53.450 out. Who steps in? Glenn Mazzara took over for 00:16:53.450 --> 00:16:56.269 the rest of season two and season three. He oversaw 00:16:56.269 --> 00:16:58.809 the transition to the prison, but then he stepped 00:16:58.809 --> 00:17:02.370 down too. Why? The official line was a difference 00:17:02.370 --> 00:17:05.549 of opinion with AMC about the show's direction 00:17:05.549 --> 00:17:08.069 moving forward. Seemed like a pattern developing. 00:17:08.430 --> 00:17:11.809 Then came Scott M. Gimple. Gimple took over from 00:17:11.809 --> 00:17:14.150 season four all the way through season eight. 00:17:14.250 --> 00:17:16.609 He really steered the ship through that whole 00:17:16.609 --> 00:17:19.569 middle period, including the rise of Negan and 00:17:19.569 --> 00:17:22.490 the all -out war arc. He provided some stability. 00:17:22.730 --> 00:17:25.490 And then for the final stretch. Angela Kang came 00:17:25.490 --> 00:17:28.670 in for seasons nine through 11, and she got a 00:17:28.670 --> 00:17:31.910 lot of credit. critically for revitalizing the 00:17:31.910 --> 00:17:34.549 show after Rick left, dealing with the Whisperers, 00:17:34.609 --> 00:17:36.890 bringing it home. And Gimple didn't just disappear, 00:17:37.009 --> 00:17:39.069 did he? He got promoted. Right. He became the 00:17:39.069 --> 00:17:41.230 chief content officer for the entire Walking 00:17:41.230 --> 00:17:44.089 Dead universe, which tells you a lot about AMC's 00:17:44.089 --> 00:17:46.250 strategy. They weren't just making a show anymore. 00:17:46.390 --> 00:17:48.230 They were building a franchise and they wanted 00:17:48.230 --> 00:17:50.410 one person overseeing it all. Makes sense. But 00:17:50.410 --> 00:17:53.089 OK, beyond the showrunners, the real visual signature 00:17:53.089 --> 00:17:54.930 of the show, the thing that made it work was 00:17:54.930 --> 00:17:57.829 the walkers, the makeup effects. Oh, absolutely 00:17:57.829 --> 00:18:00.420 critical. That was largely down to Greg Nicotero, 00:18:00.539 --> 00:18:03.160 legend in the special effects makeup world, who 00:18:03.160 --> 00:18:05.640 was also an executive producer, directed a ton 00:18:05.640 --> 00:18:08.900 of episodes. But his core contribution was making 00:18:08.900 --> 00:18:11.920 those walkers look so terrifyingly real. And 00:18:11.920 --> 00:18:13.980 he took it seriously. They had zombie school, 00:18:14.119 --> 00:18:16.119 right? They did. You couldn't just show up and 00:18:16.119 --> 00:18:19.000 wander around groaning. Actors hired to be walkers 00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:22.680 went through training, how to move, how to hold 00:18:22.680 --> 00:18:25.559 themselves, that specific shambling gate. Walker 00:18:25.559 --> 00:18:27.839 etiquette. Don't blink too much. Exactly. Keep 00:18:27.839 --> 00:18:30.079 your eyes kind of unfocused. It was all about 00:18:30.079 --> 00:18:32.559 creating that consistent, unnerving presence, 00:18:32.759 --> 00:18:35.660 whether it was one walker or a hundred. And the 00:18:35.660 --> 00:18:38.319 makeup itself was tiered, wasn't it? For practical 00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:40.700 reasons. Yeah, had to be. You couldn't possibly 00:18:40.700 --> 00:18:43.660 give every single walker in a giant horde the 00:18:43.660 --> 00:18:46.140 full treatment. Too expensive, too time -consuming. 00:18:46.279 --> 00:18:48.500 So they had levels. What were they? You had your 00:18:48.500 --> 00:18:50.319 hero walkers. These are the ones giving the close 00:18:50.319 --> 00:18:52.200 -ups, doing the biting, the main action. They 00:18:52.200 --> 00:18:55.160 got the full works, detailed prosthetics, rotting 00:18:55.160 --> 00:18:58.319 teeth, cloudy contact lenses, intricate skin 00:18:58.319 --> 00:19:00.859 decay. Yeah. Hours in the makeup chair. Okay. 00:19:01.079 --> 00:19:04.000 Then mid -ground walkers. They'd be in the, well, 00:19:04.039 --> 00:19:06.799 the middle distance. Maybe get some basic facial 00:19:06.799 --> 00:19:09.259 appliances, highlights and shadows to make them 00:19:09.259 --> 00:19:11.859 look gone, some blood splatter, enough to sell 00:19:11.859 --> 00:19:14.000 it from 10 feet away. And the background, guys. 00:19:14.140 --> 00:19:16.660 Deep background, way in the back of the hoard. 00:19:16.900 --> 00:19:20.160 Often they just wore pre -made latex masks, maybe 00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:22.900 some basic distressing on their clothes, relied 00:19:22.900 --> 00:19:25.740 on sheer numbers and distance to blend in. It 00:19:25.740 --> 00:19:28.059 was a smart, efficient system. Allowed them to 00:19:28.059 --> 00:19:30.460 create that epic scale without breaking the bank 00:19:30.460 --> 00:19:34.049 on makeup every single day. Smart. Very. And 00:19:34.049 --> 00:19:36.289 speaking of budget and logistics, the decision 00:19:36.289 --> 00:19:38.970 to film almost entirely in Georgia was huge. 00:19:39.210 --> 00:19:42.049 Tax incentives, right? Absolutely. Georgia offered. 00:19:42.430 --> 00:19:45.170 and still offers really significant tax breaks 00:19:45.170 --> 00:19:48.029 for major film and TV productions. It's been 00:19:48.029 --> 00:19:49.730 a core part of their economy since the early 00:19:49.730 --> 00:19:52.089 2000s. The Walking Dead took full advantage. 00:19:52.390 --> 00:19:54.009 Season one was more Atlanta -based, I remember. 00:19:54.150 --> 00:19:56.130 Lots of city shots. Yeah, which involved major 00:19:56.130 --> 00:19:58.829 coordination, shutting down streets, big logistical 00:19:58.829 --> 00:20:02.190 hurdles. So as the show got bigger, they moved 00:20:02.190 --> 00:20:04.589 operations primarily to Riverwood Studios, which 00:20:04.589 --> 00:20:06.970 is near the town of Sonoya, Georgia. And that 00:20:06.970 --> 00:20:09.289 place became their base camp. Totally. It was 00:20:09.289 --> 00:20:12.619 this massive 120 -acre... private studio lot. 00:20:12.940 --> 00:20:15.779 AMC eventually bought it outright in 2017. It 00:20:15.779 --> 00:20:17.619 gave them complete control. And allowed them 00:20:17.619 --> 00:20:20.579 to build those iconic permanent sets, like the 00:20:20.579 --> 00:20:23.299 Alexandria walls. Exactly. The Alexandria safe 00:20:23.299 --> 00:20:26.319 zone walls, the hilltop mansion exterior, the 00:20:26.319 --> 00:20:29.519 sanctuary complex, even the heaps of trash for 00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:32.640 the scavenger's junkyard. These were real standing 00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:34.980 sets built on the lot. Gave the show incredible 00:20:34.980 --> 00:20:37.559 production value. And they were smart about reusing 00:20:37.559 --> 00:20:40.059 things, too. Oh, yeah. Incredibly resourceful. 00:20:40.099 --> 00:20:42.900 The sound stages they used for the prison interiors 00:20:42.900 --> 00:20:45.640 in seasons three and four, they later redressed 00:20:45.640 --> 00:20:48.779 and reconfigured those exact same sets to become 00:20:48.779 --> 00:20:51.460 the dark industrial corridors of the Savior's 00:20:51.460 --> 00:20:54.000 Sanctuary. In season seven. Wow, I never realized 00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:56.240 that. Saved a ton of money and time. And they 00:20:56.240 --> 00:20:58.299 did it with locations, too. Remember Father Gabriel's 00:20:58.299 --> 00:21:00.140 church from season five? Yeah. Later on, they 00:21:00.140 --> 00:21:01.779 cleared out that exact same spot in the woods, 00:21:01.839 --> 00:21:03.960 and that became the clearing where Negan lined 00:21:03.960 --> 00:21:06.079 everyone up in the season seven premiere. They 00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:08.420 knew that Georgia location inside and out. Okay, 00:21:08.500 --> 00:21:10.339 another technical thing. The look of the show 00:21:10.339 --> 00:21:12.019 changed towards the end, didn't it? It always 00:21:12.019 --> 00:21:15.359 had that gritty film look. It did. For almost 00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:17.880 its entire run, seasons 1 through 10, basically, 00:21:18.059 --> 00:21:21.759 they shot on 16mm film. That was a deliberate 00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:24.240 choice by Darabont initially, and they stuck 00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:27.700 with it. Gave it that grainy, slightly desaturated 00:21:27.700 --> 00:21:30.220 cinematic texture. But the last season or so 00:21:30.220 --> 00:21:33.880 felt different, cleaner. It did. For the final 00:21:33.880 --> 00:21:36.200 block of episodes, the last 30, they switched 00:21:36.200 --> 00:21:39.119 to digital cameras. Part of the reason was practical 00:21:39.119 --> 00:21:41.700 during the COVID -19 pandemic. Digital workflow 00:21:41.700 --> 00:21:44.339 meant fewer physical touch points, handling film 00:21:44.339 --> 00:21:47.480 cans, etc. Made sense for safety. Yeah, but it 00:21:47.480 --> 00:21:49.440 definitely changed the aesthetic. The final season 00:21:49.440 --> 00:21:52.220 looks sharper, cleaner, less gritty. Some fans 00:21:52.220 --> 00:21:54.660 loved it, some missed the old film look. It was 00:21:54.660 --> 00:21:56.769 noticeable. And one last production point. They 00:21:56.769 --> 00:21:58.809 actually tried to be green on a zombie show. 00:21:59.089 --> 00:22:01.650 Surprisingly, yeah. Executive producer Gail Ann 00:22:01.650 --> 00:22:04.250 Hurd was a big champion for sustainability on 00:22:04.250 --> 00:22:06.789 set. They were one of the first big shows to 00:22:06.789 --> 00:22:09.150 really embrace digital workflows using an app 00:22:09.150 --> 00:22:11.029 called Dottle for call sheets, schedule scripts, 00:22:11.309 --> 00:22:13.990 basically going paperless. Which saves trees, 00:22:14.069 --> 00:22:15.630 obviously, but probably helped with logistics, 00:22:15.730 --> 00:22:19.069 too. And security, Hurd argued. Less chance of 00:22:19.069 --> 00:22:21.170 sensitive scripts or schedules being left lying 00:22:21.170 --> 00:22:23.450 around if it's all on people's phones or tablets. 00:22:23.670 --> 00:22:26.279 Smart. They also did other things, used energy 00:22:26.279 --> 00:22:28.900 -efficient lighting like compact fluorescents 00:22:28.900 --> 00:22:31.059 where possible, recycled tons of set materials, 00:22:31.339 --> 00:22:34.140 used hybrid vehicles for transport. It proved 00:22:34.140 --> 00:22:36.339 you could make a massive action horror show and 00:22:36.339 --> 00:22:38.220 still be mindful of your environmental impact 00:22:38.220 --> 00:22:41.359 and often save money doing it. Okay, so we've 00:22:41.359 --> 00:22:44.099 got this incredibly complex, sometimes turbulent, 00:22:44.200 --> 00:22:46.359 but ultimately successful production machine. 00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:50.079 And for years, that machine was fueled by just... 00:22:51.069 --> 00:22:54.250 Insane ratings success, right? This show was 00:22:54.250 --> 00:22:57.230 a monster for AMC. Oh, it was the show for AMC, 00:22:57.329 --> 00:23:00.170 their absolute flagship. After a solid start 00:23:00.170 --> 00:23:02.529 in season one, averaging around 5 million viewers, 00:23:02.670 --> 00:23:05.369 the numbers just exploded. From season three 00:23:05.369 --> 00:23:07.150 right through season seven, you're talking 10 00:23:07.150 --> 00:23:09.730 to 17 million viewers per episode, consistently. 00:23:10.049 --> 00:23:12.650 For basic cable, that was just unheard of. And 00:23:12.650 --> 00:23:14.109 that season five premiere, that was the peak, 00:23:14.150 --> 00:23:18.720 wasn't it? Record -breaking. October 2014. 17 00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:22.859 .3 million total viewers. At the time, that was 00:23:22.859 --> 00:23:25.059 the single most watched episode of any series 00:23:25.059 --> 00:23:27.599 in basic cable history. Wow. And critically, 00:23:27.799 --> 00:23:30.480 it wasn't just total viewers. It dominated the 00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:33.559 18 to 49 demographic, the one advertisers crave. 00:23:33.779 --> 00:23:36.000 It was beating pretty much everything on broadcast 00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:38.940 and cable during its run. It was a phenomena. 00:23:39.519 --> 00:23:41.759 But, like, nothing stays at that level forever, 00:23:42.039 --> 00:23:44.279 right? The ratings did eventually start to slide. 00:23:44.480 --> 00:23:46.740 They did. After the peak around season five and 00:23:46.740 --> 00:23:48.759 holding strong through seven, you started to 00:23:48.759 --> 00:23:51.440 see a noticeable, steady decline. By the end 00:23:51.440 --> 00:23:53.319 of season nine, the numbers were back down to 00:23:53.319 --> 00:23:55.299 levels closer to season one or two. Why do you 00:23:55.299 --> 00:23:57.660 think that happened? Viewer fatigue? Partly, 00:23:57.680 --> 00:24:00.599 maybe. Eleven seasons is a long time. But a lot 00:24:00.599 --> 00:24:02.619 of it was attributed to specific creative choices. 00:24:03.259 --> 00:24:05.500 The Negan storyline in Season 7, particularly 00:24:05.500 --> 00:24:07.640 the premiere violence, was really controversial 00:24:07.640 --> 00:24:10.599 and turned some viewers off. It felt grim, maybe 00:24:10.599 --> 00:24:12.960 even nihilistic for a while. And losing major 00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:15.059 characters definitely hurt, too. Rick's departure, 00:24:15.319 --> 00:24:17.960 especially. Absolutely. Losing your central protagonist 00:24:17.960 --> 00:24:19.920 after nine seasons is bound to have an impact. 00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:23.180 But credit where it's due, creatively, they managed 00:24:23.180 --> 00:24:25.460 to bounce back somewhat, didn't they? Critics 00:24:25.460 --> 00:24:28.440 seemed to like Season 9. They really did. While 00:24:28.440 --> 00:24:30.960 season 7 and 8 got pretty mixed reviews, people 00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:33.680 called the violence in the S7 premiere gratuitous, 00:24:33.740 --> 00:24:37.599 the war arc felt drawn out to some. Season 9, 00:24:37.700 --> 00:24:41.240 under Angela Kang, was widely praised. Critics 00:24:41.240 --> 00:24:43.680 said it felt refreshed, more alive than ever, 00:24:43.759 --> 00:24:46.400 even without Rick, so they could still deliver 00:24:46.400 --> 00:24:48.180 quality. Okay, but now we need to get into the 00:24:48.180 --> 00:24:50.480 really juicy stuff. The deep dives behind the 00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:53.839 curtain, the legal battles and this concept of 00:24:53.839 --> 00:24:55.920 vertical integration. Right. This is where the 00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:58.200 business side gets fascinating. And frankly. 00:24:58.670 --> 00:25:01.589 Pretty ruthless. It all stems from how AMC set 00:25:01.589 --> 00:25:03.630 itself up as both a production company and the 00:25:03.630 --> 00:25:05.650 network airing the show. Explain that. How does 00:25:05.650 --> 00:25:08.049 vertical integration work here? OK, so typically 00:25:08.049 --> 00:25:10.450 a network like AMC buys a show from an outside 00:25:10.450 --> 00:25:13.009 production studio, right? They pay that studio 00:25:13.009 --> 00:25:15.730 a license fee per episode. The studio makes its 00:25:15.730 --> 00:25:17.650 money. The network makes its money from ads. 00:25:17.930 --> 00:25:20.549 Standard model. Right. But with The Walking Dead, 00:25:20.750 --> 00:25:23.049 AMC owned the network and the production arm, 00:25:23.150 --> 00:25:25.630 AMC Studios. They were essentially making the 00:25:25.630 --> 00:25:28.660 show in -house. OK, so they're paying. Exactly. 00:25:29.319 --> 00:25:31.940 And this is crucial for the lawsuits. When a 00:25:31.940 --> 00:25:34.599 network buys a show from itself, it sets something 00:25:34.599 --> 00:25:37.420 called an imputed license fee. Basically, it 00:25:37.420 --> 00:25:40.059 decides on paper how much the network arm is 00:25:40.059 --> 00:25:43.500 paying the studio arm for the show. And the allegation 00:25:43.500 --> 00:25:47.799 was that AMC set that fee incredibly low. Unconscionably 00:25:47.799 --> 00:25:50.400 low, according to Frank Darabont and later other 00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:53.039 producers like Robert Kirkman and Gail Ann Hurd. 00:25:53.359 --> 00:25:55.859 By setting this artificially low internal price, 00:25:56.059 --> 00:25:58.740 they made it look like... The Walking Dead, the 00:25:58.740 --> 00:26:01.140 biggest show on cable, was actually losing money 00:26:01.140 --> 00:26:03.099 on paper. Wait, hang on. You said it was getting 00:26:03.099 --> 00:26:05.460 17 million viewers. How could it possibly be 00:26:05.460 --> 00:26:08.160 losing money? It wasn't. Not in reality. It was 00:26:08.160 --> 00:26:10.339 generating massive advertising revenue for the 00:26:10.339 --> 00:26:13.160 AMC network. But the accounting for AMC Studios, 00:26:13.420 --> 00:26:16.000 the production arm, showed huge deficits because 00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:18.019 the license fee it was receiving from the network 00:26:18.019 --> 00:26:20.859 arm was deliberately kept far below market value. 00:26:20.960 --> 00:26:24.059 Why would they do that? Profits. Guys like Darabont 00:26:24.059 --> 00:26:26.539 had contracts that promised them a percentage 00:26:26.539 --> 00:26:29.440 of the show's profits. If the show never officially 00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:31.880 showed a profit on the studio's books because 00:26:31.880 --> 00:26:33.740 the license fee was too low to cover production 00:26:33.740 --> 00:26:36.619 costs, then AMC wouldn't have to pay out those 00:26:36.619 --> 00:26:40.000 profit shares. That seems incredibly cynical. 00:26:40.220 --> 00:26:42.240 That was precisely the argument in the lawsuits. 00:26:42.970 --> 00:26:45.750 Darabont claimed that after season two, the show 00:26:45.750 --> 00:26:47.670 was reporting an internal loss of something like 00:26:47.670 --> 00:26:50.849 $49 million. For the biggest hit on cable? That's 00:26:50.849 --> 00:26:53.710 insane. It's accounting magic, basically. And 00:26:53.710 --> 00:26:55.970 Darabont argued his firing was timed specifically 00:26:55.970 --> 00:26:57.990 to screw him out of his profit participation, 00:26:58.410 --> 00:27:01.549 fully vesting. So he sued them. Oh, yeah. Big 00:27:01.549 --> 00:27:04.720 time. In late 2013, the lawsuit dragged on for 00:27:04.720 --> 00:27:07.000 nearly eight years. He was initially seeking 00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:10.319 damages well over $280 million. And the outcome? 00:27:10.619 --> 00:27:13.759 A massive settlement. In July 2021, AMC agreed 00:27:13.759 --> 00:27:17.640 to pay Derivant and his agency, CAA, $200 million, 00:27:17.940 --> 00:27:21.319 plus future royalties. That number tells you 00:27:21.319 --> 00:27:23.019 everything you need to know about how much money 00:27:23.019 --> 00:27:26.359 was really at stake. Wow. $200 million. And he 00:27:26.359 --> 00:27:28.440 wasn't the only one suing over this, right? No. 00:27:29.019 --> 00:27:32.009 Robert Kirkman. Gail Ann Hurd, other producers. 00:27:32.250 --> 00:27:35.210 They filed similar suits, making the same arguments 00:27:35.210 --> 00:27:37.470 about the low license fee and suppressed profits. 00:27:38.130 --> 00:27:40.569 Their potential damages were estimated to be 00:27:40.569 --> 00:27:42.890 maybe even up to a billion dollars combined. 00:27:43.230 --> 00:27:46.529 Did they win too? Actually, no. In a somewhat 00:27:46.529 --> 00:27:50.289 surprising ruling in April 2022, a judge sided 00:27:50.289 --> 00:27:53.720 with AMC in the EP's case. The judge basically 00:27:53.720 --> 00:27:56.619 said that while the deal was clearly very unfavorable 00:27:56.619 --> 00:27:59.339 to the producers, AMC had technically followed 00:27:59.339 --> 00:28:01.279 the specific language of their contracts when 00:28:01.279 --> 00:28:03.960 calculating those profits or lack thereof. So 00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:06.740 AMC won that round, legally speaking. Legally, 00:28:06.779 --> 00:28:09.119 yes. But the combined lawsuits paint this picture 00:28:09.119 --> 00:28:11.859 of years of intense conflict over the massive 00:28:11.859 --> 00:28:14.180 revenues the show was generating. The corporate 00:28:14.180 --> 00:28:16.640 drama was intense. OK, shifting from financial 00:28:16.640 --> 00:28:18.640 battles to a much more somber note, we have to 00:28:18.640 --> 00:28:20.480 mention the tragedy on set during season eight 00:28:20.480 --> 00:28:22.400 filming. Yeah, the death of Stuntman. man John 00:28:22.400 --> 00:28:25.400 Bernecker in July 2017. It was awful. What happened? 00:28:25.599 --> 00:28:27.299 He was performing a stunt that involved a fall 00:28:27.299 --> 00:28:29.140 from about 21 feet. He was supposed to land on 00:28:29.140 --> 00:28:31.079 safety cushions below, but he missed them, hit 00:28:31.079 --> 00:28:33.400 the concrete floor, suffered a fatal head injury. 00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:37.279 It's horrible. Was there a lawsuit? Yes. His 00:28:37.279 --> 00:28:39.220 mother filed a wrongful death suit against the 00:28:39.220 --> 00:28:42.079 production companies involved, TWD8 and Stalwart 00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:44.400 Films. She argued they hadn't taken adequate 00:28:44.400 --> 00:28:47.259 safety precautions. Not enough padding, maybe 00:28:47.259 --> 00:28:49.039 not enough rehearsal for what sounded like a 00:28:49.039 --> 00:28:51.160 complex stunt near a balcony railing. Not a result. 00:28:51.789 --> 00:28:53.769 The jury found the production companies were 00:28:53.769 --> 00:28:57.230 negligent. They awarded his family $8 .6 million 00:28:57.230 --> 00:29:01.150 in civil damages. It was just a tragic, stark 00:29:01.150 --> 00:29:03.849 reminder that even on a set dealing with pretend 00:29:03.849 --> 00:29:07.029 monsters, the physical risks are very real, and 00:29:07.029 --> 00:29:10.410 safety has to be paramount. So despite the ratings 00:29:10.410 --> 00:29:12.150 eventually cooling off, despite the behind -the 00:29:12.150 --> 00:29:14.269 -scenes turmoil, the lawsuits, the tragedies, 00:29:14.529 --> 00:29:16.789 AMC clearly knew they had something incredibly 00:29:16.789 --> 00:29:19.339 valuable with The Walking Dead. The success wasn't 00:29:19.339 --> 00:29:21.720 just about the main show finishing its 11 seasons. 00:29:21.839 --> 00:29:24.339 It was about launching a whole universe, a franchise. 00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:26.839 Yeah, it really became its own little media empire, 00:29:27.079 --> 00:29:29.059 didn't it? Starting with the essential accessory 00:29:29.059 --> 00:29:32.759 for any big genre show. Talking Dead, the live 00:29:32.759 --> 00:29:35.769 after show, hosted by Chris Hardwick. Absolutely 00:29:35.769 --> 00:29:38.750 crucial for fan engagement. Dissecting every 00:29:38.750 --> 00:29:41.109 episode, bringing on cast and crew, kept the 00:29:41.109 --> 00:29:43.170 conversation going all week. Then came the actual 00:29:43.170 --> 00:29:45.910 spinoffs. The first big one was Fear the Walking 00:29:45.910 --> 00:29:48.470 Dead. Right. Premiered in 2015, ran all the way 00:29:48.470 --> 00:29:51.890 to 2023. That was positioned as a companion series. 00:29:52.190 --> 00:29:54.609 Set initially in L .A., showing the start of 00:29:54.609 --> 00:29:56.630 the outbreak, the collapse of society, which 00:29:56.630 --> 00:29:59.049 the main show skipped over with Rick and a coma. 00:29:59.269 --> 00:30:01.569 Different vibe, different characters, initially 00:30:01.569 --> 00:30:03.529 at least. Very different. Then they tried other 00:30:03.529 --> 00:30:06.619 formats, too. Like The Walking Dead, World Beyond. 00:30:06.720 --> 00:30:08.259 That was the limited series, right? Only two 00:30:08.259 --> 00:30:10.980 seasons. Yeah, 2020 to 2021. Specifically focused 00:30:10.980 --> 00:30:12.740 on the first generation to come of age during 00:30:12.740 --> 00:30:15.460 the apocalypse. These kids who call themselves 00:30:15.460 --> 00:30:18.140 Endlings. Exploring a different perspective. 00:30:18.519 --> 00:30:20.819 And Tales of the Walking Dead. That was an anthology 00:30:20.819 --> 00:30:23.750 series. Launched in 2022. Standalone episodes, 00:30:24.150 --> 00:30:26.609 different characters each time, some new, some 00:30:26.609 --> 00:30:29.589 familiar faces like alpha pre -whisperers. Gave 00:30:29.589 --> 00:30:31.630 them flexibility to tell smaller stories without 00:30:31.630 --> 00:30:34.009 multi -season commitment. But the current strategy 00:30:34.009 --> 00:30:36.849 seems very focused on bringing back the heavy 00:30:36.849 --> 00:30:39.430 hitters, the original stars. Absolutely. That's 00:30:39.430 --> 00:30:42.009 clearly the core of the franchise now. You've 00:30:42.009 --> 00:30:44.509 got Dead City. Maybe in Negan in New York. Who 00:30:44.509 --> 00:30:46.730 would have thought? Right. An unlikely pairing 00:30:46.730 --> 00:30:50.069 navigating Manhattan. Then The Walking Dead. 00:30:50.720 --> 00:30:53.119 Daryl Dixon taking arguably the most popular 00:30:53.119 --> 00:30:55.660 character all the way to France, bizarrely enough. 00:30:55.920 --> 00:30:58.000 Which actually worked surprisingly well. It did. 00:30:58.140 --> 00:31:00.920 And then the big one everyone was waiting for. 00:31:01.339 --> 00:31:04.400 The ones who live. Finally bringing Rick and 00:31:04.400 --> 00:31:06.599 Michonne back together to finish their story. 00:31:06.900 --> 00:31:09.299 Plus, they're already talking about more tales 00:31:09.299 --> 00:31:11.200 from the Walking Dead universe. It just keeps 00:31:11.200 --> 00:31:14.660 expanding. It shows AMC pivoted. When the main 00:31:14.660 --> 00:31:17.039 show's massive audience started to shrink, they 00:31:17.039 --> 00:31:19.559 didn't abandon the IP. they double down on the 00:31:19.559 --> 00:31:22.259 characters people were most invested in. Smart 00:31:22.259 --> 00:31:24.539 move. And the footprint goes way beyond just 00:31:24.539 --> 00:31:26.960 TV shows, too. There were webisodes early on. 00:31:27.119 --> 00:31:29.700 Yeah, little shorts like Torn Apart or Red Machete, 00:31:29.720 --> 00:31:31.819 filling in backstory details. Huge amounts of 00:31:31.819 --> 00:31:34.240 merchandising. Those McFarlane toys action figures 00:31:34.240 --> 00:31:36.240 were everywhere. Very detailed figures, too. 00:31:36.319 --> 00:31:39.099 Looked just like the actors. And maybe the ultimate 00:31:39.099 --> 00:31:42.539 sign of making it? The parodies. Oh, tons of 00:31:42.539 --> 00:31:44.880 parodies. Saturday Night Live did sketches. But 00:31:44.880 --> 00:31:47.789 the king has to be bad lip reading. La Bibida 00:31:47.789 --> 00:31:51.029 Bibidum. Yes. That spoof of Rick and the governor 00:31:51.029 --> 00:31:53.529 talking nonsense. It was hilarious. And David 00:31:53.529 --> 00:31:55.549 Morrissey, the actor who played the governor, 00:31:55.710 --> 00:31:58.809 he actually confirmed this happened. For years 00:31:58.809 --> 00:32:01.049 after that video came out, fans would just randomly 00:32:01.049 --> 00:32:04.029 yell, hey, La Bibida Bibidum, at him on the street. 00:32:04.230 --> 00:32:06.309 That's amazing. He apparently had no idea what 00:32:06.309 --> 00:32:07.950 they were talking about at first. That's when 00:32:07.950 --> 00:32:10.470 you know you've permeated pop culture. When nonsense 00:32:10.470 --> 00:32:12.549 freezes from a parody, stick to your character. 00:32:12.690 --> 00:32:14.910 So the show, despite everything the showrunner 00:32:14.910 --> 00:32:17.750 shuffles, the ratings drop, the legal wars, it 00:32:17.750 --> 00:32:20.529 just proved incredibly resilient. It really did. 00:32:20.609 --> 00:32:23.390 It managed to navigate all that chaos and successfully 00:32:23.390 --> 00:32:26.670 launch this sprawling, ongoing franchise that 00:32:26.670 --> 00:32:28.930 people are still watching. Hashtag, hashtag, 00:32:28.930 --> 00:32:31.630 outro. So wrapping this up. We've gone through 00:32:31.630 --> 00:32:34.170 the whole bloody journey, 11 seasons of survival, 00:32:34.490 --> 00:32:36.690 evolution, community building, community collapse. 00:32:37.109 --> 00:32:39.150 We've looked at the characters who endured, the 00:32:39.150 --> 00:32:41.089 ones who didn't, the production machine that 00:32:41.089 --> 00:32:43.769 made it happen. But as we finish this deep dive, 00:32:43.970 --> 00:32:46.230 maybe the most stunning takeaway, the real irony 00:32:46.230 --> 00:32:48.190 here, comes from those lawsuits we discussed. 00:32:48.450 --> 00:32:51.269 The source material makes it unavoidable. Yeah, 00:32:51.309 --> 00:32:53.730 think about it. The Working Dead was, for years, 00:32:53.750 --> 00:32:56.529 the biggest show on cable TV, a massive financial 00:32:56.529 --> 00:32:59.710 success by any real -world measure, generating 00:32:59.710 --> 00:33:04.029 $4 And yet, because of that vertical integration 00:33:04.029 --> 00:33:06.829 model, because of the deliberately low license 00:33:06.829 --> 00:33:10.069 fee ANC set internally, the official books for 00:33:10.069 --> 00:33:11.890 the production company were designed to show 00:33:11.890 --> 00:33:14.809 it running at a loss. Denying huge profit shares 00:33:14.809 --> 00:33:17.009 to the creative partners who helped build it, 00:33:17.049 --> 00:33:19.769 the people like Darabont, Kirkman, Hurd. The 00:33:19.769 --> 00:33:21.890 fight over the money, the corporate maneuvering 00:33:21.890 --> 00:33:24.369 to control the profits. It was honestly just 00:33:24.369 --> 00:33:27.329 as brutal, just as calculating as any conflict 00:33:27.329 --> 00:33:30.420 we saw on screen between Rick and Negan. or Carol 00:33:30.420 --> 00:33:32.940 and Alpha. It really makes you think. In the 00:33:32.940 --> 00:33:35.759 end, maybe the most dangerous predators weren't 00:33:35.759 --> 00:33:38.420 the walkers outside the walls. Maybe they were 00:33:38.420 --> 00:33:40.539 the ones inside the boardroom crunching the numbers. 00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:43.880 A sobering thought, isn't it? Even in the apocalypse, 00:33:44.119 --> 00:33:46.420 the human drama of greed and power plays out. 00:33:46.519 --> 00:33:48.220 Thanks for joining us for this deep dive.