WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.160 Welcome back to the Deep Dive. Today, we're opening 00:00:03.160 --> 00:00:05.120 up a really complex set of sources. They all 00:00:05.120 --> 00:00:09.279 focus on one person, Matthew Perry, a life defined 00:00:09.279 --> 00:00:12.460 really by huge public success, but also this 00:00:12.460 --> 00:00:15.099 incredibly fierce private battle that went on 00:00:15.099 --> 00:00:17.320 for decades. Yeah, absolutely. For so many people, 00:00:17.359 --> 00:00:19.359 he's just unforgettable, isn't he? Chandler Bing. 00:00:19.500 --> 00:00:21.980 Yeah. You know, that master of sarcastic timing, 00:00:22.120 --> 00:00:24.820 but with that vulnerability underneath. But as 00:00:24.820 --> 00:00:26.460 we started digging into all this material, you 00:00:26.460 --> 00:00:28.920 realize, well, his story goes way, way beyond 00:00:28.920 --> 00:00:31.100 the set of friends. We're looking at everything, 00:00:31.300 --> 00:00:33.479 career highs, these near -death experiences he 00:00:33.479 --> 00:00:36.119 had, his commitment, which was really strong, 00:00:36.240 --> 00:00:38.780 to recovery advocacy. Right. And then, of course, 00:00:38.799 --> 00:00:42.079 the tragedy of his death and this pretty unprecedented 00:00:42.079 --> 00:00:44.380 legal investigation that followed. Yeah. It feels 00:00:44.380 --> 00:00:46.179 like an essential mission for us today, really. 00:00:46.679 --> 00:00:48.759 Our goal is to take this huge amount of information. 00:00:49.039 --> 00:00:51.060 I mean, we've got his memoir, medical reports, 00:00:51.219 --> 00:00:53.159 these detailed legal documents, and try to give 00:00:53.159 --> 00:00:55.960 you, the listener, a truly complete picture. 00:00:56.359 --> 00:00:58.659 We have to balance that image, the beloved funny 00:00:58.659 --> 00:01:00.780 guy, with the reality of someone suffering from 00:01:00.780 --> 00:01:03.780 a serious chronic illness. Exactly. And the whole 00:01:03.780 --> 00:01:06.159 arc, when you look at it, it's marked by this 00:01:06.159 --> 00:01:08.260 incredible talent. Right. Which gave him access 00:01:08.260 --> 00:01:11.400 to basically every resource imaginable. But then 00:01:11.400 --> 00:01:13.939 you see this consistent escalating pattern of 00:01:13.939 --> 00:01:15.879 self -destruction that, well, those resources 00:01:15.879 --> 00:01:18.299 just couldn't stop in the end. Yeah. And yet 00:01:18.299 --> 00:01:21.219 threaded through all that tragedy is this really 00:01:21.219 --> 00:01:24.959 powerful desire he had for his legacy. He wanted 00:01:24.959 --> 00:01:27.120 to be remembered for helping other people get 00:01:27.120 --> 00:01:29.120 sober. Right. He was very clear about that. Yeah. 00:01:29.159 --> 00:01:31.780 Very. And exploring that tension, that duality, 00:01:31.799 --> 00:01:33.859 that's really what we need to do. Okay, so let's 00:01:33.859 --> 00:01:36.480 unpack this. Starting at the beginning seems 00:01:36.480 --> 00:01:40.480 right. Understand those formative years, the 00:01:40.480 --> 00:01:43.019 pivots that kind of set the stage for everything 00:01:43.019 --> 00:01:46.859 that came later. Matthew Perry had a really interesting 00:01:46.859 --> 00:01:49.599 start, didn't he? This dual identity, U .S.-Canadian. 00:01:49.819 --> 00:01:51.879 That's right. Born in Massachusetts, so an American 00:01:51.879 --> 00:01:55.400 citizen by birth. Okay. But his mother, Suzanne 00:01:55.400 --> 00:01:58.560 Marie Morrison, she was Canadian -born. So he 00:01:58.560 --> 00:02:01.239 had dual citizenship. And this kind of split, 00:02:01.319 --> 00:02:04.340 you know, lineage and geography, it became pretty 00:02:04.340 --> 00:02:07.180 central to how he grew up. And his mom wasn't 00:02:07.180 --> 00:02:09.759 just any Canadian citizen. She was quite prominent, 00:02:09.819 --> 00:02:12.039 wasn't she? Yeah, very much so. She was press 00:02:12.039 --> 00:02:13.900 secretary to the former prime minister, Pierre 00:02:13.900 --> 00:02:17.659 Trudeau. Wow. And his dad. His father, John Bennett 00:02:17.659 --> 00:02:19.599 Perry, he was an American actor and a former 00:02:19.599 --> 00:02:21.900 model. Actually, fun fact, he popped up in an 00:02:21.900 --> 00:02:24.240 episode of Friends later on. Oh, really? I didn't 00:02:24.240 --> 00:02:26.840 know that. But his parents divorced when Matthew 00:02:26.840 --> 00:02:30.419 was only one. He was mostly raised by his mother 00:02:30.419 --> 00:02:34.020 up in Ottawa, Ontario. Okay. So his world was 00:02:34.020 --> 00:02:36.259 really shaped by his mom and his stepfather, 00:02:36.460 --> 00:02:38.580 Keith Morrison. The journalist Keith Morrison. 00:02:38.759 --> 00:02:40.740 The very same. The well -known Canadian broadcast 00:02:40.740 --> 00:02:44.039 journalist. So Perry spent time in Toronto, Montreal. 00:02:44.900 --> 00:02:47.280 He was kind of immersed in this high -profile 00:02:47.280 --> 00:02:50.939 world. Successful, yes, but maybe emotionally 00:02:50.939 --> 00:02:53.680 complicated, too. And the sources seem to suggest 00:02:53.680 --> 00:02:56.379 that despite all that success around him, he 00:02:56.379 --> 00:02:59.819 felt... Well, something wasn't quite right internally, 00:03:00.020 --> 00:03:02.439 even pretty early on. Yeah, he talks about it 00:03:02.439 --> 00:03:04.580 in his memoir, Misbehavior, Starting Around Age 00:03:04.580 --> 00:03:07.139 10, Stealing, Smoking, Gravestropping. Yeah. 00:03:07.319 --> 00:03:09.639 And he attributed it, quite deeply actually, 00:03:09.860 --> 00:03:12.139 to feeling like an outsider in his own family. 00:03:12.219 --> 00:03:15.099 An outsider? How so? Well, he felt like he no 00:03:15.099 --> 00:03:17.780 longer belonged. Once his mother started having 00:03:17.780 --> 00:03:20.539 more children with Keith Morrison, he described 00:03:20.539 --> 00:03:23.560 it as always feeling on the outside looking in. 00:03:23.719 --> 00:03:27.500 Ah, that feeling of displacement. You can see 00:03:27.500 --> 00:03:29.939 how that might sow some seeds. It really seems 00:03:29.939 --> 00:03:31.960 like a crucial piece of the puzzle psychologically. 00:03:32.460 --> 00:03:34.939 And it's during this early period, this acting 00:03:34.939 --> 00:03:38.759 out phase, that we get that pretty wild anecdote. 00:03:38.979 --> 00:03:41.319 Right, the Justin Trudeau story. It's mentioned 00:03:41.319 --> 00:03:44.759 in his memoir. He, at age 10, beat up his fellow 00:03:44.759 --> 00:03:47.669 student. who just happened to be the future prime 00:03:47.669 --> 00:03:49.949 minister of Canada. It's still kind of unbelievable 00:03:49.949 --> 00:03:52.210 to hear, isn't it? It really is. Okay. It's a 00:03:52.210 --> 00:03:54.250 funny story on one level, but it does kind of 00:03:54.250 --> 00:03:56.750 confirm he was channeling that confusion, that 00:03:56.750 --> 00:03:59.909 frustration outward, even into physical aggression 00:03:59.909 --> 00:04:02.150 at quite a young age. Yeah. But the main focus 00:04:02.150 --> 00:04:04.250 for him in his early teens, it wasn't really 00:04:04.250 --> 00:04:06.449 mischief or acting yet. It was something else 00:04:06.449 --> 00:04:09.389 entirely. It was tennis. And he was serious about 00:04:09.389 --> 00:04:11.860 it, right? Like really serious. Oh, incredibly 00:04:11.860 --> 00:04:14.539 serious. Yeah. Practicing like up to 10 hours 00:04:14.539 --> 00:04:16.899 a day. He became a top -ranked junior player 00:04:16.899 --> 00:04:19.860 in Canada. He had a legitimate shot, you know, 00:04:19.860 --> 00:04:22.519 a real path towards maybe going pro. That was 00:04:22.519 --> 00:04:24.920 his whole identity then. Which makes the next 00:04:24.920 --> 00:04:28.339 step, that move at 15, so critical. Absolute 00:04:28.339 --> 00:04:30.959 pivotal. Yeah. And difficult. He moves from Ottawa 00:04:30.959 --> 00:04:33.759 to L .A. to live with his dad. And suddenly, 00:04:33.819 --> 00:04:36.399 the talent that made him top -ranked in Canada, 00:04:36.620 --> 00:04:39.920 well, in L .A. it was just kind of average. The 00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:42.410 competition was just... that much fiercer oof 00:04:42.410 --> 00:04:45.269 that must have been crushing to pour your whole 00:04:45.269 --> 00:04:47.230 youth into something and then realize almost 00:04:47.230 --> 00:04:49.310 overnight that path is blocked just because you 00:04:49.310 --> 00:04:51.649 change location exactly a huge reality check 00:04:51.649 --> 00:04:54.800 and the sources suggest that Losing that tennis 00:04:54.800 --> 00:04:58.220 dream, it created this void. Right. And the intense 00:04:58.220 --> 00:05:00.259 discipline he had for tennis, it kind of shifted. 00:05:00.540 --> 00:05:03.180 His focus turned towards performance. He went 00:05:03.180 --> 00:05:05.000 to the Buckley School, started taking improv 00:05:05.000 --> 00:05:07.360 classes at LA Connection in Sherman Oaks. Oh, 00:05:07.439 --> 00:05:09.600 okay. So that's where the comedy timing started 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:11.459 to really develop. Seems like it. That's where 00:05:11.459 --> 00:05:13.240 that natural gift he had, the thing he became 00:05:13.240 --> 00:05:16.920 famous for, really began to blossom. So performance 00:05:16.920 --> 00:05:19.339 filled the void left by tennis. Makes sense. 00:05:20.110 --> 00:05:22.910 His first credited role was way back, wasn't 00:05:22.910 --> 00:05:26.149 it? 240 Robert. Yeah, 1979, just a small part. 00:05:26.329 --> 00:05:28.889 He built up guest spots after that. But there's 00:05:28.889 --> 00:05:32.769 one role, looking back, that feels, well, eerily 00:05:32.769 --> 00:05:35.870 prophetic. Which one was that? His three -episode 00:05:35.870 --> 00:05:39.430 arc on Growing Pains back in 1989. Oh, I remember 00:05:39.430 --> 00:05:41.829 that. He played Sandy, right? Carol Seaver's 00:05:41.829 --> 00:05:43.970 boyfriend. That's the one. Yeah. And Sandy, the 00:05:43.970 --> 00:05:46.870 character, tragically dies in a drunk driving 00:05:46.870 --> 00:05:49.350 accident in the show. Oh, wow. And you think 00:05:49.350 --> 00:05:51.269 about it. Perry's own struggles with alcohol 00:05:51.269 --> 00:05:53.990 started around age 14. He was 19 when he played 00:05:53.990 --> 00:05:56.810 that role. The subject matter is just this incredibly 00:05:56.810 --> 00:05:59.470 dark parallel to the path he was already on, 00:05:59.569 --> 00:06:01.949 privately. That is genuinely chilling when you 00:06:01.949 --> 00:06:03.389 put it like that. Okay, but let's move forward. 00:06:03.470 --> 00:06:05.230 To the moment that changed absolutely everything. 00:06:05.509 --> 00:06:07.269 Right before he auditioned for What Would Become 00:06:07.269 --> 00:06:09.029 Friends, he was actually tied up with another 00:06:09.029 --> 00:06:11.269 show. Yeah, competing pilot. If that had gone 00:06:11.269 --> 00:06:12.769 forward, he wouldn't have been available for 00:06:12.769 --> 00:06:14.529 Friends at all. What was it called? It was called 00:06:14.529 --> 00:06:18.360 LAX 2194. Bit of a high concept thing. Yeah, 00:06:18.439 --> 00:06:20.740 a sitcom set in the baggage handling department 00:06:20.740 --> 00:06:24.160 of LAX, but like 200 years in the future. Okay. 00:06:24.680 --> 00:06:27.620 Futuristic baggage handling. Right. The sources 00:06:27.620 --> 00:06:30.180 confirm he was contractually stuck with it. But 00:06:30.180 --> 00:06:32.480 thankfully for him, and for TV history, I guess, 00:06:32.600 --> 00:06:35.519 the pilot didn't get picked up. Phew. So that 00:06:35.519 --> 00:06:38.120 freed him up to audition for this other show, 00:06:38.319 --> 00:06:41.040 initially called Six of One. Which became Friends. 00:06:41.259 --> 00:06:43.220 Which became Friends. And thank goodness for 00:06:43.220 --> 00:06:45.800 the failure of futuristic baggage handling indeed. 00:06:46.160 --> 00:06:50.279 Because 1994, Matthew Perry, just 24 years old, 00:06:50.319 --> 00:06:52.480 the youngest of the main six. Yeah, he was the 00:06:52.480 --> 00:06:54.899 baby of the group. He gets cast as Chandler Bing, 00:06:55.180 --> 00:06:57.750 and that just... catapults us straight into part 00:06:57.750 --> 00:06:59.790 two, doesn't it? The massive global breakthrough, 00:06:59.970 --> 00:07:01.949 becoming one of the most famous faces on Earth. 00:07:02.149 --> 00:07:05.189 But also the versatility he showed beyond that 00:07:05.189 --> 00:07:07.370 one role. Yeah, the impact of Friends, you just 00:07:07.370 --> 00:07:09.730 can't overstate it. It wasn't just fame. It was 00:07:09.730 --> 00:07:13.709 global icon status. His persona, Chandler's persona, 00:07:13.930 --> 00:07:17.009 was instantly recognized everywhere. And that 00:07:17.009 --> 00:07:19.629 success obviously peaked financially around 2002 00:07:19.629 --> 00:07:22.410 with that landmark contract. He and the rest 00:07:22.410 --> 00:07:24.189 of the main cast earning a million dollars per 00:07:24.189 --> 00:07:26.399 episode. That million dollar figure always gets 00:07:26.399 --> 00:07:29.019 mentioned, doesn't it? But the real legacy, I 00:07:29.019 --> 00:07:32.399 think, is the comedy itself. What he did with 00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:36.620 that role. Absolutely. Critics, fans, everyone 00:07:36.620 --> 00:07:39.639 noticed his timing. That precision, that unique. 00:07:40.100 --> 00:07:42.639 staccato rhythm. The could I be anymore. Exactly. 00:07:42.860 --> 00:07:46.220 Yeah. That cadence became so famous, so imitated. 00:07:46.439 --> 00:07:48.079 But it wasn't just the jokes, was it? There was 00:07:48.079 --> 00:07:50.379 something else. No, and that's what critics really 00:07:50.379 --> 00:07:52.540 picked up on, I think. That's what made Chandler 00:07:52.540 --> 00:07:54.839 such a classic character. It was the vulnerability 00:07:54.839 --> 00:07:58.319 he layered under all that sarcasm. Yeah. He wasn't 00:07:58.319 --> 00:08:01.040 just the funny guy. He was the insecure guy using 00:08:01.040 --> 00:08:04.019 humor as a shield. Yeah. And Perry himself admitted 00:08:04.019 --> 00:08:05.800 he drew that directly from his own personality. 00:08:06.019 --> 00:08:08.879 Wow. And that vulnerability, that depth, I think 00:08:08.879 --> 00:08:10.639 that's what allowed him to actually transition 00:08:10.639 --> 00:08:13.639 pretty effectively into drama later on okay let's 00:08:13.639 --> 00:08:15.480 talk about that transition because even while 00:08:15.480 --> 00:08:18.399 friends was still huge he was branching out into 00:08:18.399 --> 00:08:21.259 movies leading roles and things like fools rush 00:08:21.259 --> 00:08:23.680 in yeah the rom -com with salma hayek and those 00:08:23.680 --> 00:08:26.639 crime comedies the whole nine yards and the sequel 00:08:26.639 --> 00:08:28.939 the whole 10 yards yeah yeah with bruce willis 00:08:28.939 --> 00:08:32.950 but the real like industry validation maybe came 00:08:32.950 --> 00:08:35.830 from his work in serious TV drama, right? We 00:08:35.830 --> 00:08:37.570 have to talk about The West Wing. Oh, absolutely. 00:08:37.730 --> 00:08:40.529 Working with Aaron Sorkin. His recurring role 00:08:40.529 --> 00:08:43.549 is Joe Quincy. That earned him two Emmy nominations 00:08:43.549 --> 00:08:46.490 for Outstanding Guest Actor. Two? Wow. Yeah, 00:08:46.549 --> 00:08:49.250 2003 and 2004. That's a huge stamp of approval, 00:08:49.309 --> 00:08:51.450 like you said. It showed he could handle that 00:08:51.450 --> 00:08:54.529 fast -paced, complex Sorkin dialogue and fit 00:08:54.529 --> 00:08:56.889 right into this. really high caliber ensemble. 00:08:57.190 --> 00:08:59.830 Proving he had range beyond the sitcom. Definitely. 00:09:00.029 --> 00:09:02.169 And he kept proving it. The Ron Clark story in 00:09:02.169 --> 00:09:04.970 2006, that TV movie. About the teacher, yeah. 00:09:05.110 --> 00:09:07.490 Playing this dedicated inner city teacher. That 00:09:07.490 --> 00:09:09.909 got him Golden Globes and Emmy nominations for 00:09:09.909 --> 00:09:12.370 Best Actor. He was really demonstrating significant 00:09:12.370 --> 00:09:14.549 traumatic death. And he stayed in the Sorkin 00:09:14.549 --> 00:09:16.889 world too, didn't he? With Studio 60 on the Sunset 00:09:16.889 --> 00:09:18.629 Strip. That's right. A main role there as the 00:09:18.629 --> 00:09:21.129 writer -director character Matt Albee from 2006 00:09:21.129 --> 00:09:24.450 to 2007. These choices, they show a real drive, 00:09:24.529 --> 00:09:27.110 don't they? To challenge himself, move away from 00:09:27.110 --> 00:09:30.070 maybe the safety of the sitcom. Yeah, explore 00:09:30.070 --> 00:09:33.450 darker, more complex stuff. And what's also kind 00:09:33.450 --> 00:09:36.429 of fascinating is that surprising detour into 00:09:36.429 --> 00:09:39.009 voice acting. Oh, yeah, the video game. Fallout. 00:09:39.269 --> 00:09:44.789 New Vegas in 2010. He voiced Benny, this ruthless 00:09:44.789 --> 00:09:47.149 gangster character. And how did that even happen? 00:09:47.450 --> 00:09:50.009 Apparently it came about because he went on the 00:09:50.009 --> 00:09:52.629 Ellen DeGeneres show and gave her a copy of the 00:09:52.629 --> 00:09:55.500 previous game as a gag gift. Because he was such 00:09:55.500 --> 00:09:57.519 a fan. That's brilliant. Shows a fun side, you 00:09:57.519 --> 00:09:59.419 know, engaging with pop culture like that. It 00:09:59.419 --> 00:10:01.759 does. Now, we should touch on the film Seventeen, 00:10:01.899 --> 00:10:04.779 again, from 2009. It did well at the box office. 00:10:04.860 --> 00:10:07.059 Yeah, with Zac Efron. Right. But some critics 00:10:07.059 --> 00:10:08.779 pointed out this kind of growing disconnect. 00:10:09.059 --> 00:10:11.139 You had Zac Efron playing the younger version, 00:10:11.240 --> 00:10:13.019 who's supposed to grow up into this polished, 00:10:13.220 --> 00:10:16.139 successful guy. Right. And then Perry's portrayal 00:10:16.139 --> 00:10:19.100 of the older version felt, well, maybe a bit 00:10:19.100 --> 00:10:22.159 miscast, physically worn. there was a sort of 00:10:22.159 --> 00:10:24.519 disbelief that one would become the other. That's 00:10:24.519 --> 00:10:27.419 a really insightful point, actually. Were the 00:10:27.419 --> 00:10:29.720 critics, without knowing the full story, kind 00:10:29.720 --> 00:10:32.679 of observing the physical toll his private struggle 00:10:32.679 --> 00:10:35.860 was taking? It certainly seems plausible in retrospect. 00:10:36.299 --> 00:10:39.659 That struggle, it definitely cast a shadow over 00:10:39.659 --> 00:10:41.960 his attempts to return to TV comedy after Friends. 00:10:42.220 --> 00:10:43.779 Yeah, there were several attempts, weren't there? 00:10:43.899 --> 00:10:46.539 Yeah, high -profile ones. Mr. Sunshine, go on. 00:10:46.679 --> 00:10:48.980 Yeah. And then the revival of The Odd Couple. 00:10:49.309 --> 00:10:51.350 Where he played Oscar Madison and produced it, 00:10:51.370 --> 00:10:54.070 too. Exactly. And while they showed he still 00:10:54.070 --> 00:10:56.809 had presence, none of them really recaptured 00:10:56.809 --> 00:10:59.509 that friend's magic, did they? No, not quite. 00:10:59.610 --> 00:11:01.669 But he didn't just stick to acting on screen. 00:11:01.809 --> 00:11:05.929 He wrote a play. He did. In 2016, he debuted 00:11:05.929 --> 00:11:08.389 as a playwright with The End of Longing. How 00:11:08.389 --> 00:11:10.669 did that go? Well, the initial run in London 00:11:10.669 --> 00:11:12.769 did well commercially, though the reviews were 00:11:12.769 --> 00:11:15.009 a bit mixed. The later production off -Broadway 00:11:15.009 --> 00:11:17.470 didn't fare as well critically. But the play 00:11:17.470 --> 00:11:20.340 itself... It sounds significant for understanding 00:11:20.340 --> 00:11:23.299 him. Oh, absolutely crucial. Because Perry himself 00:11:23.299 --> 00:11:26.259 described it very explicitly. He called it a 00:11:26.259 --> 00:11:28.940 personal message to the world, an exaggerated 00:11:28.940 --> 00:11:32.320 form of me as a drunk. Wow. So he was basically 00:11:32.320 --> 00:11:35.039 performing his illness on stage. In a way, yes. 00:11:35.580 --> 00:11:38.559 And that brings us, quite directly and painfully, 00:11:38.720 --> 00:11:44.090 into part three. The big, terrible thing. His 00:11:44.090 --> 00:11:46.870 decades -long battle with addiction and the multiple 00:11:46.870 --> 00:11:49.350 times he came incredibly close to death. Right, 00:11:49.450 --> 00:11:51.289 and this part, we need to approach it carefully. 00:11:51.529 --> 00:11:53.950 The details he shared, especially in his memoir, 00:11:54.110 --> 00:11:57.570 are just... It paints this picture of a relentless 00:11:57.570 --> 00:12:00.669 escalating illness that started way back. Yeah, 00:12:00.730 --> 00:12:02.850 he confirmed it started with alcohol at just 00:12:02.850 --> 00:12:06.210 14. 14. By 18, he said he was drinking every 00:12:06.210 --> 00:12:08.669 single day. But the addiction really morphed 00:12:08.669 --> 00:12:11.070 and ramped up significantly after that jet ski 00:12:11.070 --> 00:12:13.690 accident in 1997. Right, that's when the painkillers 00:12:13.690 --> 00:12:15.909 came in. Exactly. The pain introduced him to 00:12:15.909 --> 00:12:18.549 Vicodin, and that quickly spiraled into a massive 00:12:18.549 --> 00:12:20.669 physical dependency. And the amount he was taking, 00:12:20.870 --> 00:12:23.389 it's hard to fathom. The numbers are staggering. 00:12:23.759 --> 00:12:26.200 He admitted taking up to 55 Vicodin pills a day 00:12:26.200 --> 00:12:29.659 at his peak, 55. Which caused his weight to just 00:12:29.659 --> 00:12:32.679 plummet down to 128 pounds, which is dangerously 00:12:32.679 --> 00:12:35.759 low. And that same year, 97, was his first rehab 00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:39.039 stint. 28 days at Hazelden Betty Ford. Just the 00:12:39.039 --> 00:12:42.440 first of many, sadly. Yeah. And the pattern just 00:12:42.440 --> 00:12:46.730 continued. In 2000, he had alcohol -induced pancreatitis. 00:12:46.929 --> 00:12:49.970 Which is incredibly serious, right? Very painful. 00:12:50.129 --> 00:12:53.250 Very serious. Very painful. A major warning sign 00:12:53.250 --> 00:12:57.669 of chronic alcohol abuse. And what's just incredible 00:12:57.669 --> 00:13:00.809 and so tragic is all of this intense struggle 00:13:00.809 --> 00:13:03.509 was happening while he was starring in one of 00:13:03.509 --> 00:13:06.149 the biggest TV shows ever. Right. During Friends, 00:13:06.289 --> 00:13:08.529 he talked about that, didn't he? Trying not to 00:13:08.529 --> 00:13:10.720 drink on set. Yeah, he made an effort, but he 00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:13.259 wrote about showing up hungover all the time. 00:13:13.320 --> 00:13:15.659 Yeah. Shaking, sweating profusely during filming, 00:13:15.779 --> 00:13:17.480 especially in the later seasons. And the impact 00:13:17.480 --> 00:13:20.419 on his memory. That's maybe one of the most devastating 00:13:20.419 --> 00:13:23.220 details. He publicly admitted he has no memory 00:13:23.220 --> 00:13:26.220 whatsoever of three entire years of working on 00:13:26.220 --> 00:13:28.460 Friday. Three years? Three years, just gone. 00:13:28.559 --> 00:13:31.059 A chemical blank. Think about that performing, 00:13:31.279 --> 00:13:33.379 achieving this massive success, and it's just 00:13:33.379 --> 00:13:35.519 wiped from your memory. That's the stark reality 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:38.159 of what this disease does to the brain. It really 00:13:38.159 --> 00:13:40.220 lays bare the cost. And it must have been incredibly 00:13:40.220 --> 00:13:42.559 difficult for the rest of the cast, too. Immensely. 00:13:42.919 --> 00:13:44.620 They saw what was happening. They cared about 00:13:44.620 --> 00:13:46.740 him. They actually staged an intervention at 00:13:46.740 --> 00:13:49.440 one point. Did it? Did it work? Not at the time, 00:13:49.460 --> 00:13:51.480 unfortunately. Yeah. It shows their concern, 00:13:51.600 --> 00:13:53.940 absolutely. But the addiction was just too powerful 00:13:53.940 --> 00:13:56.960 then. Yeah. And then in February 2001, it reached 00:13:56.960 --> 00:14:00.000 a crisis point publicly. Production on both Friends 00:14:00.000 --> 00:14:02.960 and his movie Serving Sarah had to be shut down. 00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:06.179 Halted for two months. Two months. Wow. Yeah. 00:14:06.220 --> 00:14:09.360 So he can go back into inpatient rehab. This 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:12.649 time for Vicodin. Methadone, amphetamines, and 00:14:12.649 --> 00:14:15.269 alcohol. It wasn't just a minor blip. It was 00:14:15.269 --> 00:14:17.830 serious enough to stop global television production. 00:14:18.110 --> 00:14:20.049 And you'd hope that would be the turning point. 00:14:20.169 --> 00:14:23.929 But the 2018 incident, it shows just how relentless 00:14:23.929 --> 00:14:26.490 this disease is. Oh, absolutely. That 2018 near 00:14:26.490 --> 00:14:28.250 -death experience was catastrophic. He spent 00:14:28.250 --> 00:14:30.590 five months in the hospital. Because his colon 00:14:30.590 --> 00:14:32.970 ruptured. Yes, a gastrointestinal perforation 00:14:32.970 --> 00:14:35.429 caused by severe opioid abuse. It wasn't just 00:14:35.429 --> 00:14:38.529 serious. It was touch and go. Doctors literally 00:14:38.529 --> 00:14:41.269 told his family he had about a 2 % chance of 00:14:41.269 --> 00:14:43.950 survival. 2%. He was in a coma for two weeks. 00:14:44.129 --> 00:14:47.009 He needed an ECMO machine to stay alive. Can 00:14:47.009 --> 00:14:48.850 you just briefly explain what an ECMO machine 00:14:48.850 --> 00:14:51.950 actually does? Because that sounds extreme. It 00:14:51.950 --> 00:14:54.330 is the absolute highest level of life support. 00:14:54.629 --> 00:14:58.269 ECMO stands for extracorporeal membrane oxygenation. 00:14:58.509 --> 00:15:01.269 It basically acts as artificial lungs and sometimes 00:15:01.269 --> 00:15:04.029 an artificial heart too. It takes blood out, 00:15:04.110 --> 00:15:07.639 removes CO2, adds oxygen. and pumps it back in. 00:15:08.019 --> 00:15:10.480 If you're on ECMO, it means your own heart and 00:15:10.480 --> 00:15:12.759 lungs have essentially failed. Okay, so that 00:15:12.759 --> 00:15:15.200 tells you just how close to death he was. Extremely 00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:17.720 close. Yeah. And he needed a colostomy bag for 00:15:17.720 --> 00:15:19.779 nine months afterwards. And the details he shared 00:15:19.779 --> 00:15:22.840 about how he was getting the drugs, it's tough 00:15:22.840 --> 00:15:25.200 to read. Yeah, he confessed to constantly faking 00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:28.620 pain to get doctors to prescribe opioids. At 00:15:28.620 --> 00:15:30.500 his peak, he estimated he was consuming something 00:15:30.500 --> 00:15:32.980 like 1 ,800 milligrams of hydrocodone a day. 00:15:33.279 --> 00:15:35.299 Unbelievable amount. And there was another incident, 00:15:35.320 --> 00:15:37.600 too. A separate near -death event during a surgery. 00:15:38.039 --> 00:15:40.980 He was given propofol, the anesthetic. The one 00:15:40.980 --> 00:15:43.159 Michael Jackson had issues with. The same one. 00:15:43.539 --> 00:15:46.659 And it stopped Perry's heart. For five minutes. 00:15:47.980 --> 00:15:51.179 CPR. Cardiopulmonary resuscitation. They brought 00:15:51.179 --> 00:15:54.299 him back, but the force needed broke eight of 00:15:54.299 --> 00:15:57.250 his ribs. Eight ribs. My God. The sheer physical 00:15:57.250 --> 00:15:59.850 trauma his body went through. The perforation, 00:15:59.950 --> 00:16:02.850 the surgeries, the coma, the broken ribs. It 00:16:02.850 --> 00:16:05.269 just highlights the profound level of physical 00:16:05.269 --> 00:16:07.549 self -destruction that this disease drives. And 00:16:07.549 --> 00:16:09.350 when you connect this back to the resources he 00:16:09.350 --> 00:16:12.350 had, the financial cost alone is staggering. 00:16:12.549 --> 00:16:16.169 He estimated by 2022 he'd spent around $9 million 00:16:16.169 --> 00:16:20.090 trying to get sober. $9 million. And what did 00:16:20.090 --> 00:16:24.110 that pay for? 14 stomach surgeries. 15 different 00:16:24.110 --> 00:16:27.169 stays in rehab centers, and estimated 6 ,000 00:16:27.169 --> 00:16:29.610 Alcoholics Anonymous meetings over 30 years. 00:16:29.750 --> 00:16:31.889 It's a huge amount of resources for one person. 00:16:32.070 --> 00:16:33.710 It really drives home the point, doesn't it? 00:16:33.750 --> 00:16:36.730 That addiction is this chronic, relapsing, incredibly 00:16:36.730 --> 00:16:39.590 complex medical condition. Financial success 00:16:39.590 --> 00:16:42.269 alone just cannot buy you a cure. The money bought 00:16:42.269 --> 00:16:44.490 him chance after chance, but it couldn't guarantee 00:16:44.490 --> 00:16:48.190 recovery. It's a sobering thought, but this incredibly 00:16:48.190 --> 00:16:52.720 long, hard struggle. He didn't just keep it private. 00:16:53.059 --> 00:16:55.720 It became his public mission, didn't it? Which 00:16:55.720 --> 00:16:58.860 brings us to part four. His advocacy, the memoir, 00:16:59.100 --> 00:17:01.899 and the legacy he deliberately tried to shape. 00:17:02.100 --> 00:17:04.059 Yeah, he was really determined to turn all that 00:17:04.059 --> 00:17:06.039 pain, all that experience, and all that money 00:17:06.039 --> 00:17:08.859 spent into something positive for others. As 00:17:08.859 --> 00:17:12.950 early as 2011, he was actively involved. Lobbying 00:17:12.950 --> 00:17:16.069 Congress. Really? Lobbying? Yeah. As a spokesperson 00:17:16.069 --> 00:17:18.609 for the National Association of Drug Court Professionals, 00:17:18.670 --> 00:17:21.269 he was advocating for more funding for drug courts, 00:17:21.369 --> 00:17:23.490 you know, as an alternative to just locking people 00:17:23.490 --> 00:17:25.210 up. So this wasn't just lending his name. He 00:17:25.210 --> 00:17:28.150 was doing actual policy work. Exactly. And it 00:17:28.150 --> 00:17:31.269 got recognized. In 2013, the White House Office 00:17:31.269 --> 00:17:33.910 of National Drug Control Policy gave him the 00:17:33.910 --> 00:17:35.869 Champion of Recovery Award. That's significant. 00:17:36.230 --> 00:17:37.630 And he put his own money where his mouth was, 00:17:37.710 --> 00:17:40.470 too. He founded Perry House in 2013. What was 00:17:40.470 --> 00:17:43.029 Perry House? It was a sober living facility for 00:17:43.029 --> 00:17:45.490 men operating out of his former mansion in Malibu. 00:17:45.589 --> 00:17:49.269 Wow. In his own house. Yeah, initially. He sold 00:17:49.269 --> 00:17:51.650 the mansion in 2015, so the location changed. 00:17:52.089 --> 00:17:55.049 But the goal remained. Provide a safe, supportive 00:17:55.049 --> 00:17:57.490 place for other men fighting for sobriety. And 00:17:57.490 --> 00:18:00.869 then came the memoir in 2022. Friends, Lovers, 00:18:00.910 --> 00:18:03.250 and the Big Terrible Thing. That made a huge 00:18:03.250 --> 00:18:06.509 splash. Huge. Instant bestseller on Amazon, New 00:18:06.509 --> 00:18:08.549 York Times list. And it wasn't just, you know, 00:18:08.549 --> 00:18:12.119 celebrity gossip. It was this raw. unflinching 00:18:12.119 --> 00:18:14.519 look at chronic illness. Right. Really gave voice 00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:17.180 to what millions of people go through, often 00:18:17.180 --> 00:18:19.799 in silence. And in the interviews around the 00:18:19.799 --> 00:18:22.720 book, he made that wish so explicit. Legacy wish. 00:18:23.140 --> 00:18:26.119 Yeah. He said, point blank, he wanted to be remembered 00:18:26.119 --> 00:18:28.660 more for helping people get sober than for being 00:18:28.660 --> 00:18:31.160 chamber bang. That's powerful. A deeply felt 00:18:31.160 --> 00:18:34.619 desire. Absolutely. And that commitment, it actually 00:18:34.619 --> 00:18:37.380 continues even after his death. The Matthew Perry 00:18:37.380 --> 00:18:39.519 Foundation was set up by the National Philanthropic 00:18:39.519 --> 00:18:41.809 Trust. specifically to support people struggling 00:18:41.809 --> 00:18:44.849 with addiction. So that intended legacy of advocacy, 00:18:45.089 --> 00:18:47.430 it's definitely a core part of how he'll be remembered. 00:18:47.630 --> 00:18:49.990 Which brings us to the final part of this deep 00:18:49.990 --> 00:18:53.789 dive. And it's medically and legally very complex. 00:18:54.029 --> 00:18:56.470 The circumstances of his death and the criminal 00:18:56.470 --> 00:18:59.130 investigation that followed revealing this hidden 00:18:59.130 --> 00:19:02.250 world. Yeah. So Matthew Perry died on October 00:19:02.250 --> 00:19:06.970 28th, 2023. He was 54. Found unresponsive in 00:19:06.970 --> 00:19:09.069 the hot tub at his home in Pacific Palisades, 00:19:09.109 --> 00:19:11.789 L .A. The initial news was quite unclear, but 00:19:11.789 --> 00:19:13.950 the official coroner's report came out in December 00:19:13.950 --> 00:19:17.730 2023, and it was very specific. It was. The L 00:19:17.730 --> 00:19:20.170 .A. County medical examiner ruled the death accidental 00:19:20.170 --> 00:19:23.880 the primary cause. the acute effects of ketamine. 00:19:23.980 --> 00:19:26.059 Ketamine, okay. But there were other factors 00:19:26.059 --> 00:19:28.220 mentioned too, right? Yes, and they're important 00:19:28.220 --> 00:19:30.599 for the full picture. Contributing factors included 00:19:30.599 --> 00:19:32.980 the effects of buprenorphine. Which is used to 00:19:32.980 --> 00:19:35.259 treat opioid addiction. Correct. Shows he was 00:19:35.259 --> 00:19:38.000 still actively in treatment. Also, coronary artery 00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:40.200 disease, meaning his heart was already somewhat 00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:43.059 compromised. And drowning was listed as a contributing 00:19:43.059 --> 00:19:45.400 factor. Okay, so how did those all fit together? 00:19:45.500 --> 00:19:47.259 What was the lethal mechanism, according to the 00:19:47.259 --> 00:19:50.109 report? The report stated... That the really 00:19:50.109 --> 00:19:53.089 high levels of ketamine found in his system caused 00:19:53.089 --> 00:19:56.589 two dangerous things simultaneously. Cardiovascular 00:19:56.589 --> 00:19:59.690 overstimulation, basically. Stressing the heart 00:19:59.690 --> 00:20:02.230 and respiratory depression, meaning his breathing 00:20:02.230 --> 00:20:05.549 slowed down critically. And the drowning? Drowning 00:20:05.549 --> 00:20:07.970 contributed because, as he lost consciousness 00:20:07.970 --> 00:20:10.549 from the ketamine effects, he likely submerged 00:20:10.549 --> 00:20:14.059 into the water in the hot tub. Right. Okay. Now, 00:20:14.059 --> 00:20:15.960 this leads to the crucial point, the forensic 00:20:15.960 --> 00:20:18.059 detail that really triggered the whole criminal 00:20:18.059 --> 00:20:21.259 investigation. He had been receiving ketamine 00:20:21.259 --> 00:20:24.420 therapy, hadn't he? Yes. Ketamine -assisted psychotherapy 00:20:24.420 --> 00:20:27.700 for anxiety and depression. His last known legitimate 00:20:27.700 --> 00:20:30.019 session was about a week and a half before he 00:20:30.019 --> 00:20:32.819 died. But the coroner was clear. The ketamine 00:20:32.819 --> 00:20:34.799 found in his system wasn't from that session. 00:20:35.000 --> 00:20:37.359 Absolute definitive on that point. The amount 00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:39.319 of ketamine in his blood at the time of death 00:20:39.319 --> 00:20:41.079 could not have been left over from therapy that 00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:43.500 long ago. Why not? Why is that distinction so 00:20:43.500 --> 00:20:46.299 critical? Because ketamine has a very, very short 00:20:46.299 --> 00:20:49.119 half -life in the body, meaning the body processes 00:20:49.119 --> 00:20:52.279 and eliminates it incredibly quickly. Typically, 00:20:52.420 --> 00:20:54.680 its half -life is only about three to four hours, 00:20:54.859 --> 00:20:57.640 maybe even less. So any therapy that goes from 00:20:57.640 --> 00:20:59.940 over a week earlier would have been long gone. 00:21:00.220 --> 00:21:03.140 Okay, so the levels they found meant? They were 00:21:03.140 --> 00:21:05.599 consistent with recreational use, taken much, 00:21:05.640 --> 00:21:07.839 much more recently, not residual from therapy. 00:21:08.460 --> 00:21:10.980 This scientific fact proved the ketamine must 00:21:10.980 --> 00:21:13.200 have been obtained illicitly and ingested shortly 00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:16.240 before his death. And that one detail just blew 00:21:16.240 --> 00:21:19.420 the case wide open. Completely. The LAPD launched 00:21:19.420 --> 00:21:23.039 a criminal investigation in May 2024. who supplied 00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:24.980 him with that fatal dose. And it wasn't just 00:21:24.980 --> 00:21:27.339 some random street deal, was it? The investigation 00:21:27.339 --> 00:21:30.299 led to charges against five people in August 00:21:30.299 --> 00:21:33.200 2024. Yeah, five individuals. And this revealed 00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:35.380 a really troubling network. It involved people 00:21:35.380 --> 00:21:37.799 close to him, people he trusted and paid, his 00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:39.880 personal assistant, two doctors and two drug 00:21:39.880 --> 00:21:42.519 dealers, one of whom was apparently a TV director. 00:21:42.779 --> 00:21:45.619 Two doctors involved in supplying illicit ketamine. 00:21:45.720 --> 00:21:48.519 That's shocking. It really speaks volumes about 00:21:48.519 --> 00:21:50.740 how addiction can corrupt professional boundaries. 00:21:51.259 --> 00:21:53.980 According to the U .S. attorney, Perry paid these 00:21:53.980 --> 00:21:57.039 two doctors, Mark Chavez and Salvador Plasencia, 00:21:57.279 --> 00:22:02.539 a combined total of $55 ,000 in cash. $55 ,000. 00:22:02.839 --> 00:22:05.480 In cash. Just in the two months before he died. 00:22:05.619 --> 00:22:08.640 Specifically for ketamine. It just underscores 00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:11.240 the desperation, the money involved, the constant 00:22:11.240 --> 00:22:13.319 effort to get the drug. And the guilty pleas 00:22:13.319 --> 00:22:15.819 that followed. They really map out how this whole 00:22:15.819 --> 00:22:17.859 supply chain worked, don't they? Let's start 00:22:17.859 --> 00:22:19.799 with the assistant, Kenneth Yamamasa. Right. 00:22:19.859 --> 00:22:22.519 Iwamasa pleaded guilty to conspiracy to distribute 00:22:22.519 --> 00:22:25.200 ketamine, resulting in death. And the key part 00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:26.819 of his admission was that he didn't just get 00:22:26.819 --> 00:22:30.299 the drug for Perry. He admitted to actually injecting 00:22:30.299 --> 00:22:32.960 Perry with it. His own assistant injected him. 00:22:33.099 --> 00:22:35.119 Wow. The lines just completely blurred there. 00:22:35.240 --> 00:22:37.720 Totally dissolved the employer -employee boundary. 00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:40.319 It became a user -supplier dynamic, essentially. 00:22:40.519 --> 00:22:43.599 And the chain went further up. Yes. Eric Fleming, 00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:45.380 one of the dealers, charged the TV director. 00:22:46.029 --> 00:22:48.309 He also pleaded guilty to distribution resulting 00:22:48.309 --> 00:22:51.690 in death. He admitted getting 71 vials of ketamine 00:22:51.690 --> 00:22:54.349 from the main supplier, specifically for Perry. 00:22:54.549 --> 00:22:57.609 71 vials. That sounds like a huge quantity. It's 00:22:57.609 --> 00:22:59.869 an enormous amount, points to a large ongoing 00:22:59.869 --> 00:23:03.670 operation. And the doctors involved also pleaded 00:23:03.670 --> 00:23:06.970 guilty. Dr. Chavez admitted guilt, leading to 00:23:06.970 --> 00:23:09.210 his medical license being suspended. And Dr. 00:23:09.390 --> 00:23:11.890 Plasencia. He later pleaded guilty as well to 00:23:11.890 --> 00:23:15.079 multiple counts of distributing ketamine. Text 00:23:15.079 --> 00:23:17.380 messages showed Placencia was buying the ketamine 00:23:17.380 --> 00:23:19.539 he gave Perry directly from the other doctor, 00:23:19.720 --> 00:23:22.500 Chavez. So you have a doctor buying from another 00:23:22.500 --> 00:23:25.660 doctor, selling to the assistant, who's injecting 00:23:25.660 --> 00:23:28.819 the patient. All driven by the addiction. Just 00:23:28.819 --> 00:23:31.460 incredible. But there was one more person charged, 00:23:31.640 --> 00:23:35.039 described as the main source. Yes. Jasveen Sangha. 00:23:35.099 --> 00:23:37.079 She was the final defendant to plead guilty. 00:23:37.700 --> 00:23:39.700 Officials described her as the primary supplier, 00:23:40.059 --> 00:23:42.940 catering to high -end and celebs. Running a drug 00:23:42.940 --> 00:23:44.880 -selling emporium, I think was the phrase used. 00:23:45.099 --> 00:23:46.599 That's right. Out of her home in North Hollywood. 00:23:46.799 --> 00:23:49.380 The media quickly dubbed her the Ketamine Queen. 00:23:49.819 --> 00:23:52.240 Right. Highlighting her role as this major distributor 00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:55.259 to wealthy clients. And Fleming, the director, 00:23:55.500 --> 00:23:58.319 admitted getting those 71 vials for Perry directly 00:23:58.319 --> 00:24:01.059 from Sangha. She pleaded guilty in late 2025 00:24:01.059 --> 00:24:03.220 to distribution resulting in death and other 00:24:03.220 --> 00:24:06.650 charges. She's facing. potentially up to 45 years 00:24:06.650 --> 00:24:08.910 in prison. Wow. So the outcome of all these charges 00:24:08.910 --> 00:24:11.589 against doctors, the assistant dealers, the main 00:24:11.589 --> 00:24:14.309 supplier, it just paints this horrifyingly clear 00:24:14.309 --> 00:24:16.829 picture of the network that was feeding Perry's 00:24:16.829 --> 00:24:19.170 addiction right at the end. It really does. It 00:24:19.170 --> 00:24:21.349 shows the lengths the disease drives people to, 00:24:21.430 --> 00:24:24.410 even famous people with resources. And it highlights 00:24:24.410 --> 00:24:27.150 the criminal ecosystem that exists to prey on 00:24:27.150 --> 00:24:29.569 that vulnerability. So where does this leave 00:24:29.569 --> 00:24:32.109 us? After this really deep dive, we've looked 00:24:32.109 --> 00:24:34.349 at the phenomenal comedic talent, that painful 00:24:34.349 --> 00:24:37.089 outsider origin story, the sheer devastation, 00:24:37.089 --> 00:24:39.109 financial and physical of the addiction, his 00:24:39.109 --> 00:24:42.109 genuine fight for recovery and advocacy, and 00:24:42.109 --> 00:24:44.650 then these grim, complex details of his death 00:24:44.650 --> 00:24:46.970 and the criminal network around it. We've definitely 00:24:46.970 --> 00:24:49.309 gone far beyond just Chandler Bing, haven't we? 00:24:49.369 --> 00:24:52.650 His life was this constant, exhausting tightrope 00:24:52.650 --> 00:24:55.809 walk between immense outward success and this 00:24:55.809 --> 00:24:59.029 relentless internal war. And his biggest wish, 00:24:59.190 --> 00:25:02.490 the legacy he wanted, was about recovery, something 00:25:02.490 --> 00:25:04.470 he actively worked towards right up until the 00:25:04.470 --> 00:25:06.869 very end. And the relevance for us, for you listening, 00:25:07.069 --> 00:25:10.309 it's undeniable, isn't it? This whole story shows 00:25:10.309 --> 00:25:12.670 that the battle with severe addiction, it's a 00:25:12.670 --> 00:25:14.789 life and death struggle. It can overwhelm anyone, 00:25:14.950 --> 00:25:18.009 even someone with every possible resource, someone 00:25:18.009 --> 00:25:20.670 with a clearly stated, passionate desire to overcome 00:25:20.670 --> 00:25:22.890 it. Yeah. And the information from the legal 00:25:22.890 --> 00:25:25.809 case, it shows how the disease itself can create 00:25:25.809 --> 00:25:27.529 this network of people willing to break every 00:25:27.529 --> 00:25:29.930 rule, violate trust just to keep it going. Which 00:25:29.930 --> 00:25:32.210 leads us to that final thought, the really provocative 00:25:32.210 --> 00:25:34.990 one, maybe stemming from the tension within his 00:25:34.990 --> 00:25:37.990 own story. Right. Matthew Perry wrote that incredibly 00:25:37.990 --> 00:25:40.690 honest memoir. He shared every brutal detail 00:25:40.690 --> 00:25:42.950 specifically because he wanted to help people 00:25:42.950 --> 00:25:45.910 understand this big, terrible thing, this chronic 00:25:45.910 --> 00:25:49.119 relapsing disease. He had this deep. intellectual, 00:25:49.279 --> 00:25:51.440 emotional knowledge of his illness. He knew it 00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:55.079 inside out. Exactly. And yet, despite all that 00:25:55.079 --> 00:25:58.160 knowledge, despite the intention, despite the 00:25:58.160 --> 00:26:00.599 massive effort and resources poured into fighting 00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:03.500 it, he ultimately succumbed to a relapse of the 00:26:03.500 --> 00:26:06.940 very illness he spent his final years documenting 00:26:06.940 --> 00:26:09.200 and trying to help others fight. So consider 00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:11.119 that tension between the knowledge he shared 00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:13.279 so openly and the final tragedy that knowledge 00:26:13.279 --> 00:26:15.910 couldn't prevent. What does that contradiction, 00:26:16.130 --> 00:26:19.230 that profound gap, tell us about the human condition, 00:26:19.509 --> 00:26:22.670 about the sheer overpowering nature of severe 00:26:22.670 --> 00:26:25.289 chronic illness, even when someone believes they've 00:26:25.289 --> 00:26:27.329 armed themselves completely against it? It's 00:26:27.329 --> 00:26:30.069 a question that makes his advocacy work feel 00:26:30.069 --> 00:26:32.289 even more essential, I think, but also just deeply, 00:26:32.390 --> 00:26:34.150 deeply heartbreaking. An essential question, 00:26:34.390 --> 00:26:36.349 indeed. Something to really ponder. Thank you 00:26:36.349 --> 00:26:38.309 for joining us for this deep dive today. Always 00:26:38.309 --> 00:26:38.670 a pleasure.