WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.279 Welcome to the Deep Dive. We're here to unpack 00:00:02.279 --> 00:00:04.400 the insights from, well, quite a stack of sources, 00:00:04.620 --> 00:00:06.820 aiming to get you right up to speed. And our 00:00:06.820 --> 00:00:10.730 subject today is... A really fascinating study 00:00:10.730 --> 00:00:14.509 in maybe professional camouflage, Benjamin Joseph 00:00:14.509 --> 00:00:17.789 Manley Novak. Now for millions, probably billions 00:00:17.789 --> 00:00:21.329 globally, he is Ryan Howard. You know, the pimp 00:00:21.329 --> 00:00:24.170 from The Office, that symbol of like ambition 00:00:24.170 --> 00:00:27.269 and millennial angst. Yeah, Ryan the Tan. And 00:00:27.269 --> 00:00:28.629 look, if that's all you know, you're really just 00:00:28.629 --> 00:00:32.289 seeing the very tip of the iceberg. Our mission 00:00:32.289 --> 00:00:34.210 today, our deep dive is basically to show that 00:00:34.210 --> 00:00:37.409 Novak is so much more than just Ryan. We're tracing 00:00:37.409 --> 00:00:39.899 this creative path. It's almost unique in Hollywood 00:00:39.899 --> 00:00:42.880 today. It really is. Harvard guy, stand -up comic, 00:00:43.179 --> 00:00:44.619 award -winning writer for one of the biggest 00:00:44.619 --> 00:00:47.579 shows ever. Director, New York Times bestselling 00:00:47.579 --> 00:00:50.119 children's author, seriously. And, okay, maybe 00:00:50.119 --> 00:00:52.340 a less successful tech entrepreneur, but still. 00:00:52.539 --> 00:00:54.899 Right. Okay. So let's unpack that. We've gone 00:00:54.899 --> 00:00:56.640 through the sources trying to find the why. Like, 00:00:56.640 --> 00:00:58.920 what's the driver behind this constant reinvention? 00:00:59.020 --> 00:01:01.899 And it is successful reinvention, mostly. What 00:01:01.899 --> 00:01:05.519 actually links... You know, a book of 64 witty 00:01:05.519 --> 00:01:08.400 short stories, a kid's book that basically messes 00:01:08.400 --> 00:01:10.599 with the reader, and directing a pretty dark, 00:01:10.620 --> 00:01:13.579 complex movie. Well, the thread seems to be narrative 00:01:13.579 --> 00:01:17.980 storytelling. Okay. Born July 34th, 1979, Newton, 00:01:18.060 --> 00:01:21.000 Massachusetts. His career officially starts around 00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:24.040 2001, runs to now. It really suggests someone 00:01:24.040 --> 00:01:26.959 obsessed with mastering story, but like across 00:01:26.959 --> 00:01:29.780 every possible format. Exactly. That's the core 00:01:29.780 --> 00:01:32.140 argument, I think. It doesn't feel like a series 00:01:32.140 --> 00:01:34.620 of, you know, lucky breaks. It feels more like 00:01:34.620 --> 00:01:36.939 he's building this portfolio. And it's all built 00:01:36.939 --> 00:01:39.840 on one skill, analyzing and using story structure. 00:01:40.079 --> 00:01:42.359 And he's got that rare mix, right? Like super 00:01:42.359 --> 00:01:45.500 intellectual, Harvard level rigor, but also this 00:01:45.500 --> 00:01:48.239 sharp popular comedy instinct. Absolutely. And 00:01:48.239 --> 00:01:49.719 to really get it, you have to go right back. 00:01:50.189 --> 00:01:52.469 Right to the beginning. A foundation. Okay, so 00:01:52.469 --> 00:01:54.230 that foundation. You mentioned this structural 00:01:54.230 --> 00:01:56.530 compulsion. It seems really rooted in his family, 00:01:56.609 --> 00:01:58.769 his early education back in Massachusetts. Sounds 00:01:58.769 --> 00:02:01.150 like a very literary household. Oh, absolutely. 00:02:01.290 --> 00:02:05.170 His parents are Linda and William Novak. And 00:02:05.170 --> 00:02:07.689 William Novak, his father, he's a key figure 00:02:07.689 --> 00:02:10.650 here. He's an author, sure. But he also co -edited 00:02:10.650 --> 00:02:14.189 the big book of Jewish humor. Ah, okay. So right 00:02:14.189 --> 00:02:17.080 away, BJ's getting exposed to, like... The academic 00:02:17.080 --> 00:02:19.740 side of comedy, not just laughs, but why it's 00:02:19.740 --> 00:02:23.199 funny, culture, timing. Precisely. Analyzing 00:02:23.199 --> 00:02:25.520 it, understanding the mechanics. But his dad's 00:02:25.520 --> 00:02:28.379 work went way beyond that. He was kind of a master 00:02:28.379 --> 00:02:31.039 ghostwriter. Right. That's the fascinating part. 00:02:31.139 --> 00:02:32.560 He wasn't just writing his own stuff. He was 00:02:32.560 --> 00:02:35.039 channeling other people. Huge names. Think about 00:02:35.039 --> 00:02:37.280 the sheer variety of voices he had to capture 00:02:37.280 --> 00:02:40.159 authentically. We're talking Nancy Reagan. Wow. 00:02:40.599 --> 00:02:43.639 Lee Iacocca, the car guy. Magic Johnson. The 00:02:43.639 --> 00:02:46.099 basketball icon. Imagine growing up seeing your 00:02:46.099 --> 00:02:48.419 dad technically construct these totally different 00:02:48.419 --> 00:02:50.819 public personas through writing. Yeah, that teaches 00:02:50.819 --> 00:02:52.659 you that writing isn't just like inspiration. 00:02:52.819 --> 00:02:54.639 It's a technical skill. You can build a voice, 00:02:54.699 --> 00:02:57.460 build a narrative for almost anyone. Exactly. 00:02:57.460 --> 00:02:59.319 That skill, that understanding of voice construction. 00:03:00.139 --> 00:03:02.340 Invaluable later for creating characters, say, 00:03:02.419 --> 00:03:04.900 for The Office. It starts with technical mastery. 00:03:05.219 --> 00:03:07.319 Okay. So that's the whole environment. What about 00:03:07.319 --> 00:03:10.219 school? Also points to that intellectual rigor. 00:03:10.580 --> 00:03:13.000 Solomon Schechter Day School, Brown Middle School. 00:03:13.479 --> 00:03:17.219 Camp Rama in New England. But here's the bit 00:03:17.219 --> 00:03:19.819 that fans, especially office fans listening, 00:03:20.060 --> 00:03:21.979 will love. The high school connection. This is 00:03:21.979 --> 00:03:24.240 legendary, right? It really is. Newton South 00:03:24.240 --> 00:03:27.099 High School. He graduates in 97. And guess who's 00:03:27.099 --> 00:03:29.599 in his class working on creative stuff with him? 00:03:29.699 --> 00:03:32.120 Gotta be John Krasinski. Jim Halpert himself. 00:03:32.479 --> 00:03:35.479 Bingo. Future Jim. And they weren't just, you 00:03:35.479 --> 00:03:37.800 know, passing acquaintances. They co -edited 00:03:37.800 --> 00:03:41.620 the school paper, The Lion's Roar. And they even 00:03:41.620 --> 00:03:43.879 co -wrote a satirical play together. This is 00:03:43.879 --> 00:03:45.699 early days, but they're already honing that shared 00:03:45.699 --> 00:03:48.460 sensibility. That's amazing. Two guys who become 00:03:48.460 --> 00:03:50.699 central to this huge comedy hit starting out 00:03:50.699 --> 00:03:52.520 editing high school paper together. It speaks 00:03:52.520 --> 00:03:55.000 to, I don't know, talent, finding talent early. 00:03:55.180 --> 00:03:57.120 Yeah, and Novak carried that intensity right 00:03:57.120 --> 00:04:00.180 into Harvard, graduated in 2001, majored in English 00:04:00.180 --> 00:04:02.639 and Spanish literature. But let's look closer 00:04:02.639 --> 00:04:04.680 at his academic work there. The honors thesis. 00:04:04.800 --> 00:04:06.780 This links back to film, doesn't it? It does. 00:04:07.370 --> 00:04:10.150 He wrote his honors thesis on the films of Shakespeare's 00:04:10.150 --> 00:04:12.810 Hamlet. Now think about that. He's not just studying 00:04:12.810 --> 00:04:16.149 the play, he's studying adaptation. Ah, how the 00:04:16.149 --> 00:04:19.290 story changes across mediums. Exactly. Structure, 00:04:19.430 --> 00:04:22.149 reinvention. How do you take this core narrative, 00:04:22.389 --> 00:04:25.730 Hamlet, and rebuild it visually? It's basically 00:04:25.730 --> 00:04:27.970 analyzing the same problem he'd face adapting 00:04:27.970 --> 00:04:30.470 The British Office. He was thinking like a technical 00:04:30.470 --> 00:04:33.050 writer about film way before he wrote a pilot. 00:04:33.189 --> 00:04:35.649 That's a huge range, though. Deep Shakespeare 00:04:35.649 --> 00:04:37.990 film analysis on one hand and then writing, say, 00:04:38.069 --> 00:04:40.050 Diversity Day for The Office on the other. But 00:04:40.050 --> 00:04:41.569 it's connected, right? It's all structure and 00:04:41.569 --> 00:04:43.689 narrative. And while he was doing the heavy academic 00:04:43.689 --> 00:04:46.209 stuff, he was also performing. He joined the 00:04:46.209 --> 00:04:49.050 Harvard Lampoon, you know, comedy writing powerhouse. 00:04:49.170 --> 00:04:51.230 Right. And he performed in this variety show 00:04:51.230 --> 00:04:53.610 called The BJ Show. So it was always this blend. 00:04:54.329 --> 00:04:56.910 Deep analysis and practical performance. OK, 00:04:56.990 --> 00:05:00.529 so 2001, he graduates, heads to L .A., starts 00:05:00.529 --> 00:05:03.449 putting that structured comedy brain to work 00:05:03.449 --> 00:05:05.230 in stand up. Did it take long to get noticed? 00:05:05.509 --> 00:05:07.750 Seemed pretty quick. He was hungry. His first 00:05:07.750 --> 00:05:10.069 official stand up gig was recorded like October 00:05:10.069 --> 00:05:12.930 10th, 2001 at the Hollywood Youth Hostel of all 00:05:12.930 --> 00:05:16.170 places. Wow. And by 2003, just two years later, 00:05:16.850 --> 00:05:19.110 Variety picks him as one of their 10 comedians 00:05:19.110 --> 00:05:21.970 to watch. That gets him spots on Comedy Central's 00:05:21.970 --> 00:05:24.790 Premium Blend, Late Night with Conan O 'Brien. 00:05:24.990 --> 00:05:27.870 But his first big TV splash wasn't stand -up 00:05:27.870 --> 00:05:31.430 or sitcoms. It was. Well, it was pranking celebrities. 00:05:31.810 --> 00:05:34.410 Yeah, punked. A bit of a curveball, maybe, but 00:05:34.410 --> 00:05:38.110 crucial for visibility. 2003, season two, he's 00:05:38.110 --> 00:05:39.990 Ashton Kutcher's main accomplice on the ground. 00:05:40.129 --> 00:05:43.269 Right, setting up Hilary Duff, Usher, Mia. Exactly. 00:05:43.310 --> 00:05:45.709 And, okay, maybe it seems like just fun and games, 00:05:45.750 --> 00:05:48.540 but think about it. It forces him to improvise, 00:05:48.579 --> 00:05:51.040 manage narratives happening in real time, perform 00:05:51.040 --> 00:05:53.819 under pressure, good training in a weird way. 00:05:54.019 --> 00:05:56.019 And even before Punk'd, he already had a foot 00:05:56.019 --> 00:05:58.519 in the door with traditional TV writing. Yeah, 00:05:58.579 --> 00:06:01.600 a small gig but important. He wrote two episodes 00:06:01.600 --> 00:06:04.639 for a WB sitcom called Raising Dad. That was 00:06:04.639 --> 00:06:08.079 back in 2001, 2002. So right from the start in 00:06:08.079 --> 00:06:10.720 L .A., he's juggling stand -up, acting, writing, 00:06:10.899 --> 00:06:13.639 always multitasking. That really sets the pattern 00:06:13.639 --> 00:06:15.889 for his whole career, doesn't it? Absolutely. 00:06:16.069 --> 00:06:18.250 And all those threads, the writing, the performing, 00:06:18.470 --> 00:06:20.689 the analysis, they just perfectly came together 00:06:20.689 --> 00:06:22.550 in the office. This was the gig that defined 00:06:22.550 --> 00:06:25.410 him, obviously. But not just as Ryan, the actor. 00:06:25.529 --> 00:06:27.850 It really made him a powerhouse behind the scenes. 00:06:28.050 --> 00:06:30.589 And the way he got cast is brilliant. It wasn't 00:06:30.589 --> 00:06:33.269 even a standard audition, was it? No. It's pure 00:06:33.269 --> 00:06:36.069 recognition of talent. Greg Daniels, the executive 00:06:36.069 --> 00:06:39.149 producer, saw Novak do stand -up, heard his opening 00:06:39.149 --> 00:06:41.670 joke, apparently, and just thought, I want to 00:06:41.670 --> 00:06:43.670 do something with him. It wasn't about finding 00:06:43.670 --> 00:06:45.250 someone for a pre -written part. It was about 00:06:45.250 --> 00:06:48.550 hiring that specific comedic brain. And then 00:06:48.550 --> 00:06:51.610 he gets cast as Ryan Howard, the tump, who kind 00:06:51.610 --> 00:06:55.189 of becomes this perfect symbol for, well, for 00:06:55.189 --> 00:06:57.629 a certain kind of modern ambition. Detached, 00:06:57.709 --> 00:07:00.089 maybe too smart for the room, but still wants 00:07:00.089 --> 00:07:02.329 to climb. Totally. And that character got extra 00:07:02.329 --> 00:07:03.970 layers, didn't it? Because of the real life stuff 00:07:03.970 --> 00:07:06.870 happening off screen. Ah, the Mindy Kaling connection. 00:07:07.819 --> 00:07:10.259 Kelly Kapoor. Right. The sources all talk about 00:07:10.259 --> 00:07:12.319 their on -again, off -again relationship and 00:07:12.319 --> 00:07:15.360 how it often seemed to, well, mirror the crazy, 00:07:15.379 --> 00:07:18.480 toxic, but somehow really compelling dynamic 00:07:18.480 --> 00:07:21.699 between Ryan and Kelly on the show. It blurred 00:07:21.699 --> 00:07:24.339 the lines, you know, fed the comedy. Yeah, life 00:07:24.339 --> 00:07:27.079 imitating art imitating life. But the bigger 00:07:27.079 --> 00:07:29.959 story here, maybe, is his role as one of the 00:07:29.959 --> 00:07:32.379 show's architects. He wasn't just reading lines. 00:07:32.500 --> 00:07:34.519 He was in the original core group shaping the 00:07:34.519 --> 00:07:36.860 whole thing. Oh, completely central. He was one 00:07:36.860 --> 00:07:39.220 of the original writers from day one. Alongside 00:07:39.220 --> 00:07:41.680 Greg Daniels, Mindy Kaling, Michael Schur, Paul 00:07:41.680 --> 00:07:44.120 Lieberstein. That's the brain trust. And over 00:07:44.120 --> 00:07:47.839 the show's run, he wrote 15 episodes. 15. That's 00:07:47.839 --> 00:07:50.240 a huge contribution. Like being the head writer 00:07:50.240 --> 00:07:53.339 for a season and a half, basically. It's massive. 00:07:53.399 --> 00:07:55.360 And we need to look at which episodes he wrote. 00:07:55.579 --> 00:07:58.000 They weren't just filler. They often set the 00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:00.920 tone or took big risks. Like Diversity Day. Season 00:08:00.920 --> 00:08:04.259 one. Exactly. WGA nominated, too. That episode 00:08:04.259 --> 00:08:06.720 is crucial because it establishes the whole show's 00:08:06.720 --> 00:08:09.480 M .O., right? Taking super uncomfortable social 00:08:09.480 --> 00:08:12.300 topics, filtering them through Michael Scott's 00:08:12.300 --> 00:08:16.019 profound cluelessness, but also his weirdly good 00:08:16.019 --> 00:08:18.680 intentions. Yeah, it's a tightrope walk, tonally. 00:08:18.740 --> 00:08:21.360 You need real control to make that level of awkwardness 00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:23.300 funny without just being offensive. It feels 00:08:23.300 --> 00:08:25.339 like applying that analytical brain to social 00:08:25.339 --> 00:08:28.730 dynamics, but using jokes as the tool. Then think 00:08:28.730 --> 00:08:31.050 about something later, like Scott's Tots from 00:08:31.050 --> 00:08:33.509 season six. Oh, God, Scott's Tots. Probably the 00:08:33.509 --> 00:08:36.250 most famously painful episode ever. Right. Pure 00:08:36.250 --> 00:08:38.990 cringe comedy, but brilliantly structured. Michael 00:08:38.990 --> 00:08:41.309 promising college tuition to kids years ago. 00:08:41.490 --> 00:08:44.029 You just know it's going to end badly. Novak 00:08:44.029 --> 00:08:46.350 directed that one, too. And he just leans into 00:08:46.350 --> 00:08:48.610 the awkwardness, uses the mockumentary style, 00:08:48.850 --> 00:08:51.669 the silences, the reactions. It's sustained comedic 00:08:51.669 --> 00:08:54.090 tension. Yeah. Masterful, really. He also got 00:08:54.090 --> 00:08:57.830 a WGA nom for local ad in season four. So writing, 00:08:57.889 --> 00:09:00.629 directing, that kind of consistent quality work 00:09:00.629 --> 00:09:03.250 naturally led to him becoming a producer, a real 00:09:03.250 --> 00:09:05.409 leader on the show. Yeah, the industry certainly 00:09:05.409 --> 00:09:07.970 noticed. He got two Screen Actors Guild Awards 00:09:07.970 --> 00:09:10.470 with the ensemble, a Writers Guild Award for 00:09:10.470 --> 00:09:13.309 his writing, and the show got five straight Emmy 00:09:13.309 --> 00:09:15.929 noms for Outstanding Comedy Series while he was 00:09:15.929 --> 00:09:19.029 a key producer -writer. That's 2007 to 2011. 00:09:19.470 --> 00:09:21.690 He was officially named an executive producer 00:09:21.690 --> 00:09:24.070 around season seven. He wasn't just a participant. 00:09:24.149 --> 00:09:26.659 He was helping steer the ship. And directing, 00:09:26.679 --> 00:09:28.820 too. You mentioned Scott's Tots. He directed 00:09:28.820 --> 00:09:31.159 others as well, right? Wow. Bringing that film 00:09:31.159 --> 00:09:33.600 analysis background into play. Definitely. Besides 00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:35.620 Scott's Tots, he directed the seminar in season 00:09:35.620 --> 00:09:37.720 seven. Season eight premieres The List trivia. 00:09:37.980 --> 00:09:40.179 He even directed some of the webisodes like The 00:09:40.179 --> 00:09:42.860 Office, Blackmail. He was clearly comfortable 00:09:42.860 --> 00:09:45.639 wearing multiple hats on set, using it as a lab 00:09:45.639 --> 00:09:48.500 almost. OK, but then comes this really interesting 00:09:48.500 --> 00:09:51.159 moment, a major pivot point. The sources say 00:09:51.159 --> 00:09:53.700 he was offered the absolute top job for the final 00:09:53.700 --> 00:09:56.480 season. and turned it down. That's right. He 00:09:56.480 --> 00:09:58.379 was offered the showrunner position for season 00:09:58.379 --> 00:10:01.299 nine. That's that dream job in TV comedy. Total 00:10:01.299 --> 00:10:04.039 creative control, big payday, the works. But 00:10:04.039 --> 00:10:06.980 he said no. He confirmed later, I think in 2021, 00:10:07.240 --> 00:10:10.000 that his, quote, fire for the job had burned 00:10:10.000 --> 00:10:12.779 out. He felt he'd done what he could do within 00:10:12.779 --> 00:10:16.100 that structure. He'd mastered it maybe and needed 00:10:16.100 --> 00:10:18.120 a new challenge. That tells you a lot about him, 00:10:18.139 --> 00:10:19.799 doesn't it? It's not about power grabbing. It's 00:10:19.799 --> 00:10:23.440 about avoiding getting stale creatively. He prioritizes 00:10:23.440 --> 00:10:26.299 the challenge, the reinvention over just climbing 00:10:26.299 --> 00:10:29.080 the industry ladder. Exactly. Yeah. He did come 00:10:29.080 --> 00:10:31.320 back for the finale, though. Made sure Ryan Howard 00:10:31.320 --> 00:10:34.409 got a proper sendoff. But his focus had already 00:10:34.409 --> 00:10:36.950 shifted. Right. So after deliberately stepping 00:10:36.950 --> 00:10:39.190 back from the peak of The Office, Novak starts 00:10:39.190 --> 00:10:41.490 making these really strategic moves into film, 00:10:41.610 --> 00:10:43.929 picking supporting roles, often dramatic ones, 00:10:44.110 --> 00:10:46.450 working with really interesting directors. Yeah, 00:10:46.490 --> 00:10:49.370 looking at his filmography from, say, the late 00:10:49.370 --> 00:10:53.009 2000s into the mid -2010s, it definitely feels 00:10:53.009 --> 00:10:55.370 like a conscious effort. Like, OK, I'm not just 00:10:55.370 --> 00:10:58.500 Ryan Howard. I'm a serious actor. Highly strategic. 00:10:58.679 --> 00:11:01.559 Pretty quickly, 2009, he pops up in Quentin Tarantino's 00:11:01.559 --> 00:11:04.980 Inglourious Bastards. Right, as PFC Smith Sinutovic. 00:11:05.000 --> 00:11:08.120 A small part, but very serious in that movie. 00:11:08.220 --> 00:11:10.539 Exactly. Working with Tarantino, that's like 00:11:10.539 --> 00:11:13.379 a PhD in film structure right there. And it put 00:11:13.379 --> 00:11:16.480 him in a totally non -comedic light. Before that, 00:11:16.580 --> 00:11:18.440 he'd done Supporting Bits and Reign Over Me in 00:11:18.440 --> 00:11:21.879 2007, and Judd Apatow's Knocked Up, also 2007. 00:11:22.460 --> 00:11:24.799 And then in the mid -2010s, it seems like he's 00:11:24.799 --> 00:11:27.899 drawn to films based on true stories or with 00:11:27.899 --> 00:11:30.000 strong narrative structures. That's a good observation. 00:11:30.259 --> 00:11:32.519 He plays Robert B. Sherman, one of the Sherman 00:11:32.519 --> 00:11:35.879 brothers, in Saving Mr. Banks in 2013. That's 00:11:35.879 --> 00:11:38.279 about the making of Mary Poppins, so he's embodying 00:11:38.279 --> 00:11:41.179 a real person within this big story about storytelling. 00:11:41.500 --> 00:11:43.559 Then he jumps into a totally different world. 00:11:43.720 --> 00:11:45.779 Yeah, the superhero world. He plays Alistair 00:11:45.779 --> 00:11:47.899 Smythe in The Amazing Spider -Man 2 in 2014. 00:11:48.570 --> 00:11:50.789 Shows he's willing to play in those big franchise 00:11:50.789 --> 00:11:53.190 sandboxes. But maybe the role that really showed 00:11:53.190 --> 00:11:55.649 his dramatic chops was the founder. I think so. 00:11:55.909 --> 00:11:58.490 That's the 2016 film with Michael Keaton as Ray 00:11:58.490 --> 00:12:01.570 Kroc. Novak plays Harry J. Sunborn. The finance 00:12:01.570 --> 00:12:04.690 guy behind McDonald's success. Exactly. The guy 00:12:04.690 --> 00:12:06.710 who figured out the real estate model. It's a 00:12:06.710 --> 00:12:10.730 crucial, serious role. Yeah. And Novak is really 00:12:10.730 --> 00:12:14.070 convincing as this sharp, no -nonsense financial 00:12:14.070 --> 00:12:16.700 architect. It proved his acting wasn't just limited 00:12:16.700 --> 00:12:18.980 to comedy or mockumentary. Okay, before we leave 00:12:18.980 --> 00:12:20.940 film, gotta mention the lighter side, too. He 00:12:20.940 --> 00:12:23.179 did voice work. Oh, yeah. Gotta pay the bills, 00:12:23.200 --> 00:12:25.679 right? And reach a different audience. He voiced 00:12:25.679 --> 00:12:29.019 Baker Smurf in the Smurfs movie in 2011 and the 00:12:29.019 --> 00:12:31.940 sequel in 2013. Baker Smurf. Okay. Hey, it's 00:12:31.940 --> 00:12:34.679 smart. Voice work at a huge kids franchise. Yeah. 00:12:34.860 --> 00:12:37.179 Keeps your name out there. Minimal effort visually. 00:12:37.899 --> 00:12:40.399 Practical career move. Fair enough. Okay, shifting 00:12:40.399 --> 00:12:43.490 back to TV after The Office. He didn't completely 00:12:43.490 --> 00:12:46.389 cut ties, especially not with Mindy Kaling. No, 00:12:46.529 --> 00:12:49.169 that partnership is incredibly strong. He showed 00:12:49.169 --> 00:12:51.750 up on The Mindy Project, starred in five episodes 00:12:51.750 --> 00:12:54.409 as a character named Jamie. But more than that, 00:12:54.529 --> 00:12:56.809 he was a consulting producer for the first season, 00:12:56.889 --> 00:12:59.409 kept his hand in, creatively supporting her vision. 00:12:59.549 --> 00:13:01.570 And he wrote and directed for her show, too, 00:13:01.649 --> 00:13:04.409 still wearing multiple hats. Yep, wrote and directed 00:13:04.409 --> 00:13:06.409 episodes, including one called Harry and Sally. 00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:09.179 That writer, director, producer, actor combo. 00:13:09.340 --> 00:13:12.039 It's just his default mode, it seems. And then 00:13:12.039 --> 00:13:14.779 to prove he was serious about drama, he dives 00:13:14.779 --> 00:13:16.799 into maybe the most challenging dialogue style 00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:21.919 on TV. Aaron Sorkin. The newsroom. Yeah. In 2014, 00:13:22.019 --> 00:13:24.519 he gets this recurring role for four episodes 00:13:24.519 --> 00:13:27.379 playing Lucas Prude. That's like going from swimming 00:13:27.379 --> 00:13:29.320 laps to swimming the English Channel dialogue 00:13:29.320 --> 00:13:31.759 -wise. Totally. Sorkin's stuff is relentless. 00:13:32.019 --> 00:13:35.840 Fast, dense, super smart, taking that role. That's 00:13:35.840 --> 00:13:37.539 deliberately choosing a difficult challenge, 00:13:37.700 --> 00:13:40.620 pushing himself way outside the mockumentary 00:13:40.620 --> 00:13:42.759 comfort zone. He really does seem committed to 00:13:42.759 --> 00:13:44.980 just constantly adding different skills, different 00:13:44.980 --> 00:13:47.700 experiences to his toolkit. Never stops diversifying. 00:13:48.330 --> 00:13:50.110 And yeah, for the trivia buffs, he's done fun 00:13:50.110 --> 00:13:53.429 cameos, too. He was Mr. Egypt on Community, popped 00:13:53.429 --> 00:13:56.309 up in Crazy Ex -Girlfriend. And more recently, 00:13:56.429 --> 00:14:00.110 just last year, 2023, he voiced the dog 630 in 00:14:00.110 --> 00:14:02.269 Lessons in Chemistry. Oh, right. And he even 00:14:02.269 --> 00:14:03.750 won a Celebrity Jeopardy. So, you know, he's 00:14:03.750 --> 00:14:06.269 engaging across the whole spectrum. Eyebrow drama, 00:14:06.669 --> 00:14:10.360 voice acting, game shows. He adapts. Okay, this 00:14:10.360 --> 00:14:12.720 next phase feels like the most radical shift 00:14:12.720 --> 00:14:15.639 yet. He moves away from performing almost completely 00:14:15.639 --> 00:14:19.019 for a bit and goes full on into literature and 00:14:19.019 --> 00:14:21.120 even tech. This is where that Harvard English 00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:23.659 major really comes roaring back, isn't it? This 00:14:23.659 --> 00:14:26.460 is pure intellectual Novak stepping forward. 00:14:26.820 --> 00:14:29.899 April 2013, the office isn't even over yet, and 00:14:29.899 --> 00:14:33.500 boom. Alfred Enoff announces this massive book 00:14:33.500 --> 00:14:36.259 deal, seven figures, two books. Wow. And the 00:14:36.259 --> 00:14:39.480 first book is pitched as, like, woody allen style 00:14:39.480 --> 00:14:42.580 short fiction witty philosophical little story 00:14:42.580 --> 00:14:45.360 that book was one more thing stories and other 00:14:45.360 --> 00:14:49.679 stories came out in 2014 64 stories That's a 00:14:49.679 --> 00:14:51.379 lot of concise narrative structures. How did 00:14:51.379 --> 00:14:53.580 it actually do? It did really well. It was a 00:14:53.580 --> 00:14:55.399 genuine success, commercially and critically. 00:14:55.740 --> 00:14:57.879 Spent six weeks on the New York Times bestsellers 00:14:57.879 --> 00:14:59.940 list for hardcover fiction. It basically proved 00:14:59.940 --> 00:15:02.179 he could write outside of a TV writer's room. 00:15:02.379 --> 00:15:04.500 That he understood short fiction, which is all 00:15:04.500 --> 00:15:06.659 about nailing structure and impact immediately. 00:15:07.159 --> 00:15:09.059 Very different from TV writing. Kind of like 00:15:09.059 --> 00:15:11.320 the discipline of a stand -up joke, almost. Exactly. 00:15:11.539 --> 00:15:14.139 Perfect analogy. But the really huge success, 00:15:14.340 --> 00:15:16.200 the one that made him a household name in a totally 00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:19.500 different sphere, was the children's book. Which 00:15:19.500 --> 00:15:22.279 seems so. Left field, right? For the guy who 00:15:22.279 --> 00:15:24.419 wrote Scott's Tots. Yeah, the book with no pictures, 00:15:24.500 --> 00:15:27.320 that thing was everywhere. Everywhere is an understatement. 00:15:27.379 --> 00:15:29.519 He signed a separate deal with Penguin for it. 00:15:29.679 --> 00:15:33.000 The success was just phenomenal. As of early 00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:36.799 2021, it had spent 174 weeks on the New York 00:15:36.799 --> 00:15:39.440 Times picture book bestseller list. That's over 00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:42.279 three years. And 34 of those weeks were at number 00:15:42.279 --> 00:15:45.620 one. What was the magic? It's such a simple concept. 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:48.000 It's genius because it's pure structure as the 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:51.000 joke. The whole premise is it's a picture book, 00:15:51.120 --> 00:15:53.379 but the rule is the adult has to read every single 00:15:53.379 --> 00:15:56.559 word out loud no matter how silly. Bork. Blur. 00:15:56.600 --> 00:15:59.139 Right. It forces the adult reader into absurdity. 00:15:59.419 --> 00:16:02.279 Exactly. It weaponizes the text against the reader 00:16:02.279 --> 00:16:04.720 for the child's amusement. It's all about the 00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:07.440 power of the written word. Novak himself said 00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:09.740 he wrote it because, and this is a quote, to 00:16:09.740 --> 00:16:12.460 me, there's no more meaningful, important, or 00:16:12.460 --> 00:16:15.159 exciting rule to introduce to children than the 00:16:15.159 --> 00:16:18.149 power of the written word. He uses the structure 00:16:18.149 --> 00:16:20.309 of the book itself to make that point. That quote 00:16:20.309 --> 00:16:22.230 connects everything, doesn't it? Language, structure, 00:16:22.450 --> 00:16:24.929 rules, control. It's like a meta commentary on 00:16:24.929 --> 00:16:27.610 how we follow rules, even in a play. Precisely. 00:16:27.610 --> 00:16:30.190 And he even released a follow -up in 2019, My 00:16:30.190 --> 00:16:32.169 Book With No Pictures, which is like a fill -in 00:16:32.169 --> 00:16:33.990 -the -blanks version, handing that power over 00:16:33.990 --> 00:16:36.090 to the kid. He kept writing other stuff, too. 00:16:36.210 --> 00:16:38.789 Essays for The New Yorker, Playboy, contributed 00:16:38.789 --> 00:16:42.080 to Tim Ferriss' Tools of Titans. Always writing, 00:16:42.159 --> 00:16:45.080 always analyzing structure. Okay. Master TV writing, 00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:48.620 short fiction, smash hit children's lit. So the 00:16:48.620 --> 00:16:52.820 obvious next move for a structuralist is a social 00:16:52.820 --> 00:16:55.299 media app. Yeah, the tech venture. It's maybe 00:16:55.299 --> 00:16:57.120 the most interesting failure because it reveals 00:16:57.120 --> 00:17:01.320 so much. October 2015, Novak and a co -founder, 00:17:01.480 --> 00:17:03.779 Dev Flaherty, launched the List app for iOS. 00:17:04.259 --> 00:17:06.980 The concept was literally, quote, we just love 00:17:06.980 --> 00:17:09.250 lists. They're the best. I remember this. It 00:17:09.250 --> 00:17:11.569 felt like trying to bring order to Internet chaos, 00:17:11.950 --> 00:17:14.990 making social media about curated, structured 00:17:14.990 --> 00:17:18.130 lists. And that's the perfect analysis. It was 00:17:18.130 --> 00:17:20.509 a structuralist solution to a messy behavioral 00:17:20.509 --> 00:17:24.029 space. For Novak, a list ordered ideas is like 00:17:24.029 --> 00:17:26.150 the ultimate short form narrative. He wanted 00:17:26.150 --> 00:17:28.630 to force online chatter into that neat, tidy 00:17:28.630 --> 00:17:30.769 format. Did it get any traction? Some initial 00:17:30.769 --> 00:17:33.079 buzz. Got nominated for a Webby Award in 2016, 00:17:33.299 --> 00:17:35.019 which is respectable. But ultimately. Ultimately 00:17:35.019 --> 00:17:37.339 didn't stick. They rebranded it LydotST, put 00:17:37.339 --> 00:17:39.960 it on Android in 2016. But people just didn't 00:17:39.960 --> 00:17:41.519 interact that way online, I guess. It required 00:17:41.519 --> 00:17:43.660 too much effort, too much deliberate curation 00:17:43.660 --> 00:17:46.619 compared to, you know, just firing off a tweet. 00:17:46.819 --> 00:17:49.660 It shut down in September 2017. Lack of users. 00:17:49.940 --> 00:17:52.759 Which is fascinating, right? Because the failure 00:17:52.759 --> 00:17:56.099 reinforces his core identity. He tried to impose 00:17:56.099 --> 00:17:58.440 his beloved structure onto the wild messiness 00:17:58.440 --> 00:18:01.750 of social media. And the messiness won. Structure 00:18:01.750 --> 00:18:03.789 failed against chaos this time. Yeah, exactly. 00:18:04.089 --> 00:18:07.269 So after that list app experiment, Novak seems 00:18:07.269 --> 00:18:09.930 to regroup and consolidate. He enters what feels 00:18:09.930 --> 00:18:12.470 like his current phase, the full -blown auteur. 00:18:13.069 --> 00:18:15.670 He's creating, writing, directing, producing, 00:18:15.809 --> 00:18:18.519 and starring in his own stuff now. taking complete 00:18:18.519 --> 00:18:21.079 control. And the first big project showcasing 00:18:21.079 --> 00:18:23.579 that total control was the FX anthology series, 00:18:23.740 --> 00:18:26.299 right? The premise, yeah, back in 2021. He was 00:18:26.299 --> 00:18:28.859 the creator, writer, director, exec producer, 00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:31.980 everything for FX on Hulu. And an anthology, 00:18:32.079 --> 00:18:33.960 that's maybe the ultimate test of versatility, 00:18:34.059 --> 00:18:35.720 short of a movie. You build a whole new world, 00:18:35.740 --> 00:18:37.799 new characters, new tone, every single week. 00:18:37.940 --> 00:18:40.359 And he wrote all five episodes himself, tackling 00:18:40.359 --> 00:18:43.079 some pretty edgy, topical stuff. Oh yeah, the 00:18:43.079 --> 00:18:45.640 titles alone tell you that. Social justice sex 00:18:45.640 --> 00:18:49.200 tape? Moment of silence, butt plug, he directed 00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:51.740 a couple of those too. This wasn't safe network 00:18:51.740 --> 00:18:55.220 comedy anymore. This was sharp, dark, social 00:18:55.220 --> 00:18:57.920 satire. Drawing on everything he'd done before, 00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:00.480 but pushing it somewhere new. Okay, so anthology 00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:03.079 series done. The next logical step for the auteur 00:19:03.079 --> 00:19:06.299 is the feature film directorial debut. Full control, 00:19:06.599 --> 00:19:10.839 big screen. Vengeance, 2022. And again, he did 00:19:10.839 --> 00:19:13.359 it all, wrote it, produced it, directed it, and 00:19:13.359 --> 00:19:15.220 starred as the lead character, Ben Malowitz, 00:19:15.380 --> 00:19:17.740 this writer guy who goes to Texas to investigate 00:19:17.740 --> 00:19:19.660 the death of a woman he barely knew. And that 00:19:19.660 --> 00:19:21.299 production had its own challenges, didn't it, 00:19:21.319 --> 00:19:23.660 thanks to the pandemic? Oh, yeah. The sources 00:19:23.660 --> 00:19:25.700 mentioned got shut down hard by COVID, started 00:19:25.700 --> 00:19:28.160 filming March 2020, had to pause, didn't finish 00:19:28.160 --> 00:19:31.240 until January 2021. Shows some serious grit, 00:19:31.400 --> 00:19:33.519 seeing a big personal project through that kind 00:19:33.519 --> 00:19:35.839 of disruption. And Vengeance itself feels like 00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:37.880 a culmination, doesn't it? It blends genres. 00:19:38.220 --> 00:19:40.460 It's a mystery, kind of a thriller, but it's 00:19:40.460 --> 00:19:42.160 also funny. And it's got all this commentary 00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:45.319 about the culture clash, urban versus rural America. 00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:47.700 It really pulls together all his threads. The 00:19:47.700 --> 00:19:49.839 sharp dialogue from his comedy writing days, 00:19:50.000 --> 00:19:53.049 the deep social observation. his Harvard analysis, 00:19:53.369 --> 00:19:56.190 the dramatic acting chops he honed in films like 00:19:56.190 --> 00:19:59.250 The Founder. It's structurally complex, but accessible. 00:19:59.650 --> 00:20:01.910 Smart commentary wrapped in a genre package. 00:20:02.470 --> 00:20:05.569 So looking ahead, we should probably expect him 00:20:05.569 --> 00:20:08.130 to keep prioritizing projects where he has that 00:20:08.130 --> 00:20:11.069 full creative control. Seems likely. That's the 00:20:11.069 --> 00:20:13.750 auteur path. Interestingly, even while Vengeance 00:20:13.750 --> 00:20:16.809 was in the works, back in May 2020, it was announced 00:20:16.809 --> 00:20:19.130 he's writing an exec producing a new show for 00:20:19.130 --> 00:20:22.819 HBO Max called Young People. A multicam comedy. 00:20:23.019 --> 00:20:25.160 Oh, back to multicam, the traditional sitcom 00:20:25.160 --> 00:20:27.720 format. Yeah, which is fascinating. It's like 00:20:27.720 --> 00:20:29.839 he wants to take that very structured, traditional 00:20:29.839 --> 00:20:32.960 form, but apply his own unique vision to it. 00:20:33.099 --> 00:20:35.720 Now that he's the one fully in charge, testing 00:20:35.720 --> 00:20:37.680 his structural ideas in a different container. 00:20:37.859 --> 00:20:40.000 And he's not giving up acting entirely. People 00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:41.680 will still see him in other people's projects. 00:20:42.019 --> 00:20:44.509 Nope. Seems he's keeping a hand in. He's listed 00:20:44.509 --> 00:20:46.930 in the cast for The Devil Wears Prada 2. Apparently 00:20:46.930 --> 00:20:49.970 it's filming now, aiming for 2026. So he can 00:20:49.970 --> 00:20:52.490 maintain that acting profile in big studio movies 00:20:52.490 --> 00:20:55.569 while also developing his own more personal writer 00:20:55.569 --> 00:20:58.829 -director work. It's a smart balance. collaboration 00:20:58.829 --> 00:21:01.569 and independence. All right. So to wrap up our 00:21:01.569 --> 00:21:04.150 dive into BJ Novak, the creator, we should probably 00:21:04.150 --> 00:21:06.009 touch on some of the key personal connections. 00:21:06.089 --> 00:21:09.329 And obviously, the biggest one has to be Mindy 00:21:09.329 --> 00:21:11.670 Kaling. That relationship spans decades now. 00:21:11.849 --> 00:21:13.710 It's really one of the most unique and enduring 00:21:13.710 --> 00:21:16.029 partnerships in Hollywood, isn't it? Started 00:21:16.029 --> 00:21:18.509 romantic, got fictionalized on The Office, but 00:21:18.509 --> 00:21:21.670 then evolved into this incredibly deep, supportive, 00:21:21.869 --> 00:21:25.009 creative friendship. They were arguably the engine 00:21:25.009 --> 00:21:28.230 behind so many of Ryan and Kelly's best, most 00:21:28.230 --> 00:21:30.890 unhinged storylines. And he described her in 00:21:30.890 --> 00:21:33.089 really powerful terms, didn't he, on NPR's Fresh 00:21:33.089 --> 00:21:35.869 Air? He did. He called her, quote, the most important 00:21:35.869 --> 00:21:38.910 person in my life. Which, coming from someone 00:21:38.910 --> 00:21:41.069 generally quite private, says everything about 00:21:41.069 --> 00:21:43.670 the depth of that bond. It's clearly way beyond 00:21:43.670 --> 00:21:45.990 just colleagues or even just friends. It's foundational. 00:21:46.269 --> 00:21:49.690 And now it's literally family, right? He's godfather 00:21:49.690 --> 00:21:52.250 to her kids. Exactly. Godfather to her first 00:21:52.250 --> 00:21:55.130 two children. That really cements it as this 00:21:55.450 --> 00:21:57.529 permanent family -level connection. It's not 00:21:57.529 --> 00:21:59.230 just about working together anymore. It's about 00:21:59.230 --> 00:22:01.289 life. Okay. And what about his more recent personal 00:22:01.289 --> 00:22:03.990 life? Any updates there? Well, the sources we 00:22:03.990 --> 00:22:06.609 looked at indicate he's reportedly dating Delaney 00:22:06.609 --> 00:22:09.880 Rowe. who's a big creator on TikTok. That started 00:22:09.880 --> 00:22:13.339 getting attention late 2024 and seemed confirmed 00:22:13.339 --> 00:22:17.079 around April 2025. Interesting. Shows he's still 00:22:17.079 --> 00:22:19.279 connected to current culture, even as he's doing 00:22:19.279 --> 00:22:21.980 these big literary and film projects. Yeah, bridging 00:22:21.980 --> 00:22:24.740 different worlds, as always. Okay, finally, we 00:22:24.740 --> 00:22:26.859 have to talk about the weirdest footnote in his 00:22:26.859 --> 00:22:29.700 entire career, the stock photo thing. Oh my God, 00:22:29.740 --> 00:22:32.500 it's hilarious. And so perfectly ironic for a 00:22:32.500 --> 00:22:34.660 guy obsessed with controlling his narrative. 00:22:35.319 --> 00:22:39.640 Somehow, somewhere, a photo of BJ Novak ended 00:22:39.640 --> 00:22:42.119 up in the public domain as a generic stock photo. 00:22:42.259 --> 00:22:44.640 And now it just pops up randomly on products 00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:47.000 worldwide. Yep. Without his permission, without 00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:49.200 his knowledge, it's the ultimate loss of control. 00:22:49.400 --> 00:22:51.900 His face is just out there selling stuff. Do 00:22:51.900 --> 00:22:53.700 we know what kind of stuff? The source has mentioned 00:22:53.700 --> 00:22:55.500 it's been seen on all sorts of random international 00:22:55.500 --> 00:22:58.500 products. The specific example given was, wait 00:22:58.500 --> 00:23:03.200 for it, a Calvin Klein cologne in Sweden. No. 00:23:04.380 --> 00:23:07.319 Ryan Howard's face selling Swedish cologne. Apparently 00:23:07.319 --> 00:23:10.900 so. And Novak himself is reportedly just baffled 00:23:10.900 --> 00:23:13.599 by it, has no idea how it happened. It's like 00:23:13.599 --> 00:23:15.259 the universe playing a prank on the ultimate 00:23:15.259 --> 00:23:18.359 planner. A little reminder that sometimes things 00:23:18.359 --> 00:23:20.799 are just weird and chaotic. Hashtag head outro. 00:23:21.309 --> 00:23:23.329 okay so we started this whole deep dive asking 00:23:23.329 --> 00:23:26.450 you know is bj novak just ryan howard and i think 00:23:26.450 --> 00:23:29.009 we can safely say unequivocally no not even close 00:23:29.009 --> 00:23:32.490 what we've seen is this uh this really singular 00:23:32.490 --> 00:23:34.930 creative figure who's just constantly successfully 00:23:34.930 --> 00:23:37.930 pivoted comedy series film acting best -selling 00:23:37.930 --> 00:23:41.069 literature for adults and kids tech Yeah, from 00:23:41.069 --> 00:23:43.109 editing the high school paper with John Krasinski 00:23:43.109 --> 00:23:46.190 to analyzing Shakespeare films at Harvard to 00:23:46.190 --> 00:23:48.490 writing iconic sitcom episodes, becoming a number 00:23:48.490 --> 00:23:51.089 one bestselling author, launching an app, directing 00:23:51.089 --> 00:23:53.210 a feature film. It's an incredible trajectory. 00:23:53.569 --> 00:23:55.569 And if you try to connect all those dots like 00:23:55.569 --> 00:23:57.890 we set out to do. The connection really seems 00:23:57.890 --> 00:24:00.849 to be that deep foundational understanding of 00:24:00.849 --> 00:24:03.779 story structure. He gets how narrative works 00:24:03.779 --> 00:24:06.839 on a fundamental level, whether it's a list or 00:24:06.839 --> 00:24:09.720 a kid's book designed to be read aloud or a mockumentary 00:24:09.720 --> 00:24:12.160 or a dark indie film. He sees the underlying 00:24:12.160 --> 00:24:14.579 architecture. And he seems driven by mastering 00:24:14.579 --> 00:24:16.480 those different structures. Once he feels he's 00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:18.700 cracked one, he moves on to the next intellectual 00:24:18.700 --> 00:24:20.799 challenge. Exactly. It's about the structure, 00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:23.119 the execution, the precision of the language. 00:24:23.420 --> 00:24:25.819 That's what matters to him, regardless of the 00:24:25.819 --> 00:24:28.099 medium or the audience. So that leaves us with 00:24:28.099 --> 00:24:30.059 a final thought for you, the listener, to chew 00:24:30.059 --> 00:24:33.180 on. We've seen him tackle... Comedy, drama, kids 00:24:33.180 --> 00:24:35.279 lit. He's always looking for structures to play 00:24:35.279 --> 00:24:37.660 with, right? Right. So given that deep background 00:24:37.660 --> 00:24:40.839 in analyzing classics, remember the Hamlet thesis. 00:24:41.700 --> 00:24:43.799 And now he's involved in the Devil Wears Prada 00:24:43.799 --> 00:24:47.869 2, which comes from a book. What's next? Yeah, 00:24:47.910 --> 00:24:50.769 what classic genre or maybe what really ambitious 00:24:50.769 --> 00:24:53.069 literary adaptation might he try and reinvent 00:24:53.069 --> 00:24:55.589 now that he's got this full auteur toolkit? Could 00:24:55.589 --> 00:24:57.809 he do, I don't know, a Western? A musical. A 00:24:57.809 --> 00:25:00.670 musical. Adapt a dense historical novel. Who 00:25:00.670 --> 00:25:03.730 knows? But given his track record, you can bet 00:25:03.730 --> 00:25:06.509 it won't be predictable. With B .J. Novak, the 00:25:06.509 --> 00:25:09.190 only real certainty seemed to be the next pivot. 00:25:09.269 --> 00:25:09.809 Keep watching.