WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.960 Welcome back to The Deep Dive. Today, we're tackling 00:00:02.960 --> 00:00:06.259 source material on someone whose career is, well, 00:00:06.360 --> 00:00:08.199 it's almost hard to pin down, just incredibly 00:00:08.199 --> 00:00:10.419 diverse. Yeah, we're talking about Ben Sidren. 00:00:10.699 --> 00:00:13.560 And it's not just, you know, dabbling in different 00:00:13.560 --> 00:00:16.859 things. It's deep, recognized achievement across 00:00:16.859 --> 00:00:19.839 fields that don't usually mix. Right. We're talking 00:00:19.839 --> 00:00:22.640 rock music, serious jazz, academia, writing, 00:00:22.820 --> 00:00:25.899 broadcasting, producing. It's a lot. The mission 00:00:25.899 --> 00:00:28.620 today is figuring out how one person weaves all 00:00:28.620 --> 00:00:31.719 those threads, rock and roll history, jazz scholarship, 00:00:32.020 --> 00:00:35.039 English lit, TV production into one cohesive 00:00:35.039 --> 00:00:38.179 and frankly long career. And the hook, I think, 00:00:38.200 --> 00:00:40.159 comes right from the Chicago Sun -Times. They 00:00:40.159 --> 00:00:42.640 called him a renaissance man cast adrift in a 00:00:42.640 --> 00:00:45.659 modern world. That image. It really sticks. It 00:00:45.659 --> 00:00:47.659 does. It perfectly frames our dives. You know, 00:00:47.659 --> 00:00:49.520 the Renaissance ideal is about the whole person, 00:00:49.579 --> 00:00:51.939 the polymath. Sidren seems to have taken that 00:00:51.939 --> 00:00:54.100 idea and just plunged it right into the heart 00:00:54.100 --> 00:00:55.979 of modern American music. So we need to connect 00:00:55.979 --> 00:00:58.100 those dots for you. How does studying English 00:00:58.100 --> 00:01:00.960 literature deeply connect to, say, producing 00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:03.439 Van Morrison or playing keyboards for the Rolling 00:01:03.439 --> 00:01:06.219 Stones? Exactly. And what can you, the listener, 00:01:06.340 --> 00:01:09.439 take away from a life that seems to defy specialization? 00:01:09.739 --> 00:01:12.420 Okay, let's lay the groundwork. Ben Hirsch Sidron, 00:01:12.579 --> 00:01:16.420 born August 14th, 1943 in Chicago, grew up in 00:01:16.420 --> 00:01:19.040 Racine, Wisconsin. Known primarily maybe as a 00:01:19.040 --> 00:01:21.379 keyboardist and vocalist in the jazz world, but 00:01:21.379 --> 00:01:24.060 also a major producer, label owner, writer. And 00:01:24.060 --> 00:01:26.739 we should mention a legacy continues. His son, 00:01:26.939 --> 00:01:29.879 Leo Sidron, is a Grammy -nominated musician himself. 00:01:29.900 --> 00:01:32.200 It's clearly in the blood. Our sources cover 00:01:32.200 --> 00:01:35.500 what? Six decades from the early 60s right up 00:01:35.500 --> 00:01:37.640 to releases this year. It's a massive amount 00:01:37.640 --> 00:01:39.299 of output. All right, let's start at the beginning. 00:01:39.379 --> 00:01:42.019 Wisconsin University. This is where that split 00:01:42.019 --> 00:01:45.120 or maybe that fusion really begins. Okay, so 00:01:45.120 --> 00:01:47.959 he's in Racine, Wisconsin. Then 1961, he heads 00:01:47.959 --> 00:01:50.099 to the University of Wisconsin -Madison. And 00:01:50.099 --> 00:01:53.319 this is key. He co -founds a band there, the 00:01:53.319 --> 00:01:56.299 Ardells. And his bandmates in the Ardell. Only 00:01:56.299 --> 00:01:58.760 Steve Miller and Boz Skaggs. I mean, talk about 00:01:58.760 --> 00:02:01.359 a starting lineup. Right. Future rock royalty. 00:02:01.680 --> 00:02:03.799 But here's the first really interesting turn. 00:02:04.120 --> 00:02:06.500 Miller and Skaggs take off for the West Coast, 00:02:06.659 --> 00:02:09.219 you know, chasing the music dream. But Sidron 00:02:09.219 --> 00:02:12.039 doesn't go. He stays. He finishes his degree 00:02:12.039 --> 00:02:14.740 in English literature, graduating in 66. That's 00:02:14.740 --> 00:02:17.460 a significant choice right there. Choosing academia 00:02:17.460 --> 00:02:20.219 over the immediate pull of rock stardom with 00:02:20.219 --> 00:02:22.860 guys who clearly had something going on. It really 00:02:22.860 --> 00:02:25.919 is. And you have to think that English lit background. 00:02:26.139 --> 00:02:29.560 It's about. Analysis, critical thinking, understanding 00:02:29.560 --> 00:02:31.979 narrative, communicating complex ideas. These 00:02:31.979 --> 00:02:34.120 aren't just academic skills. They're life skills. 00:02:34.259 --> 00:02:36.180 Skills that presumably shaped everything else 00:02:36.180 --> 00:02:38.199 he did, from writing books to interviewing musicians. 00:02:38.620 --> 00:02:40.759 Absolutely. He learned how to deconstruct a text. 00:02:40.919 --> 00:02:43.439 Later, he applies that to music, to culture, 00:02:43.560 --> 00:02:45.979 to the music business itself. Okay, so he graduates 00:02:45.979 --> 00:02:48.740 in 66. Does he then follow Miller and Skaggs 00:02:48.740 --> 00:02:51.870 West? No. He goes... Beast. Way used. Right. 00:02:51.930 --> 00:02:54.129 Across the Atlantic. He enrolls at the University 00:02:54.129 --> 00:02:57.129 of Sussex in England to pursue a Ph .D. So you 00:02:57.129 --> 00:02:59.289 picture him buried in books, right? Deep academic 00:02:59.289 --> 00:03:02.469 dive. And he was studying. But simultaneously, 00:03:02.870 --> 00:03:05.189 the sources are clear. He's working as a session 00:03:05.189 --> 00:03:08.770 musician in London during the absolute explosion 00:03:08.770 --> 00:03:11.229 of the British rock scene. That juxtaposition 00:03:11.229 --> 00:03:15.129 is just wild. Studying dense academic theory 00:03:15.129 --> 00:03:18.449 by day and then what? heading into the studio. 00:03:18.590 --> 00:03:20.650 Pretty much. Think about the mental gear shift 00:03:20.650 --> 00:03:23.289 required. Who was he playing with? The sources 00:03:23.289 --> 00:03:26.090 mention some huge names. Yeah, I mean, legendary 00:03:26.090 --> 00:03:29.900 figures. Eric Clapton. Peter Frampton. And get 00:03:29.900 --> 00:03:32.400 this, he was involved in sessions connected to 00:03:32.400 --> 00:03:34.819 the Rolling Stones, working directly with Charlie 00:03:34.819 --> 00:03:37.199 Watts. While studying for a Ph .D. in England. 00:03:37.340 --> 00:03:40.060 While studying for a Ph .D. It's not just jamming 00:03:40.060 --> 00:03:42.159 either. This is professional, high -stakes studio 00:03:42.159 --> 00:03:45.159 work. It shows that ability he has to just switch 00:03:45.159 --> 00:03:48.080 contexts, to operate at a high level in completely 00:03:48.080 --> 00:03:50.379 different worlds. One intensely intellectual, 00:03:50.759 --> 00:03:53.810 the other. Instinctive. Collaborative. High pressure 00:03:53.810 --> 00:03:56.310 in a different way. Exactly. Session work demands 00:03:56.310 --> 00:03:58.430 you listen intently, you collaborate instantly, 00:03:58.689 --> 00:04:01.389 you nail the part now. Playing with Clapton requires 00:04:01.389 --> 00:04:03.710 one kind of feel, one kind of musical vocabulary. 00:04:04.069 --> 00:04:05.870 Playing with the Stones requires another, that 00:04:05.870 --> 00:04:08.449 swagger, that groove. It's about feel as much 00:04:08.449 --> 00:04:11.009 as notes. So he's juggling the long -term analytical 00:04:11.009 --> 00:04:13.889 thinking of a PhD with the immediate intuitive 00:04:13.889 --> 00:04:17.490 demands of top -tier rock sessions. And apparently 00:04:17.490 --> 00:04:20.629 thriving in both. The sources don't suggest he 00:04:20.629 --> 00:04:23.759 saw it as an aetherer. More like... complementary 00:04:23.759 --> 00:04:27.800 skill sets. Academia sharpens the mind, the analysis, 00:04:28.100 --> 00:04:31.959 music demands presence, connection, instant application. 00:04:32.240 --> 00:04:34.980 OK, so even with the PhD studies and the London 00:04:34.980 --> 00:04:37.740 session scene, that original connection to Steve 00:04:37.740 --> 00:04:40.480 Miller didn't just fade away. No, not at all. 00:04:40.720 --> 00:04:42.660 They were made really strong, even across the 00:04:42.660 --> 00:04:45.879 ocean. Sidron becomes a key contributor to the 00:04:45.879 --> 00:04:48.519 Steve Miller band during a really fertile period. 00:04:48.680 --> 00:04:50.620 Which albums are we talking about? He's listed 00:04:50.620 --> 00:04:53.259 as keyboardist and songwriter on Brave New World, 00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:56.620 You're Saving Grace, No. 5, and Recall the Beginning, 00:04:56.819 --> 00:04:59.199 A Journey from Eden. These are pretty foundational 00:04:59.199 --> 00:05:01.000 albums for Miller. And the big one, the track 00:05:01.000 --> 00:05:03.060 everyone knows, even if they don't know Sidron's 00:05:03.060 --> 00:05:05.579 name, Space Cowboy. He co -wrote that. He did. 00:05:06.009 --> 00:05:09.050 That credit alone cements his place in rock history, 00:05:09.189 --> 00:05:11.750 completely separate from everything else he achieved 00:05:11.750 --> 00:05:14.649 in jazz or academia. It's a classic rock anthem. 00:05:14.769 --> 00:05:16.850 And his involvement went beyond just playing 00:05:16.850 --> 00:05:19.350 and writing, right? He stepped into producing 00:05:19.350 --> 00:05:22.670 for Miller, too. Yeah, he produced the 1972 album 00:05:22.670 --> 00:05:25.100 Recall the Beginning. That's another significant 00:05:25.100 --> 00:05:27.740 step, moving from being a musician in the band 00:05:27.740 --> 00:05:30.420 to shaping the overall sound, the direction of 00:05:30.420 --> 00:05:32.500 the entire project. It shows that early interest 00:05:32.500 --> 00:05:35.300 in the bigger picture, beyond just his own performance, 00:05:35.540 --> 00:05:37.660 learning the ropes of production. Definitely, 00:05:37.699 --> 00:05:40.079 acquiring those skills, understanding how to 00:05:40.079 --> 00:05:42.699 guide an artist's vision, how to manage the studio 00:05:42.699 --> 00:05:46.000 process, skills he'd later use extensively, and 00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:48.730 even teach. And it's interesting how that relationship 00:05:48.730 --> 00:05:51.189 came full circle later on. Right. Much later, 00:05:51.310 --> 00:05:54.529 in 1988, Sidron produces Miller's album Born 00:05:54.529 --> 00:05:57.389 to Be Blue. Which was Miller doing jazz standards, 00:05:57.529 --> 00:05:59.990 moving closer to Sidron's own turf. Exactly. 00:05:59.990 --> 00:06:02.730 So the dynamic shifted. Instead of Sidron contributing 00:06:02.730 --> 00:06:05.709 keyboards to Miller's rock vision, now Sidron 00:06:05.709 --> 00:06:07.930 is the expert guide, helping Miller navigate 00:06:07.930 --> 00:06:10.959 the nuances of jazz and blues performance. It's 00:06:10.959 --> 00:06:13.100 a lovely symmetry. It really underscores that 00:06:13.100 --> 00:06:15.800 fluidity between genres. Okay, so that sets up 00:06:15.800 --> 00:06:17.680 his early foundation, the academic grounding, 00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:20.540 the rock credentials. Let's move into the phase 00:06:20.540 --> 00:06:22.860 where he really establishes himself as a solo 00:06:22.860 --> 00:06:25.939 artist and, crucially, a sought -after producer. 00:06:26.439 --> 00:06:30.000 So 1971, he makes a key move. He returns to Madison, 00:06:30.160 --> 00:06:33.079 Wisconsin. And this becomes his home base, his 00:06:33.079 --> 00:06:35.920 anchor, really, for most of his life. Which is 00:06:35.920 --> 00:06:38.319 interesting in itself. After London, the Stones' 00:06:38.540 --> 00:06:41.509 California connections... He chooses the Midwest. 00:06:41.829 --> 00:06:44.189 Yeah, and it's there he starts to formalize the 00:06:44.189 --> 00:06:46.370 academic side related to the industry itself. 00:06:46.509 --> 00:06:49.829 He starts teaching courses at UW -Madison. Teaching 00:06:49.829 --> 00:06:52.310 what specifically? Not English Lit this time. 00:06:52.509 --> 00:06:54.529 No, teaching courses on the business of music. 00:06:54.810 --> 00:06:57.430 Okay, now that's a perfect synthesis of his experiences. 00:06:57.649 --> 00:07:00.110 What kind of insights would he bring to that, 00:07:00.189 --> 00:07:03.129 having navigated sessions, royalties for Space 00:07:03.129 --> 00:07:05.750 Cowboy production? Exactly. He wasn't teaching 00:07:05.750 --> 00:07:08.269 theory out of a textbook. He was teaching the 00:07:08.269 --> 00:07:11.509 practical realities. Contract negotiations from 00:07:11.509 --> 00:07:14.449 a player's perspective. Royalty splits from a 00:07:14.449 --> 00:07:16.990 songwriter's perspective. The studio dynamics, 00:07:17.250 --> 00:07:19.689 the budgets, the label politics he learned firsthand 00:07:19.689 --> 00:07:22.550 producing Recall the Beginning. So dealing with 00:07:22.550 --> 00:07:25.370 intellectual property, navigating labels, things 00:07:25.370 --> 00:07:27.910 learned under fire with Clacton or Miller now 00:07:27.910 --> 00:07:30.850 being taught in a classroom. Precisely. Knowing 00:07:30.850 --> 00:07:32.910 how fast you need to work when the clock is ticking 00:07:32.910 --> 00:07:34.850 on studio time with someone like Charlie Watts, 00:07:35.069 --> 00:07:37.689 that's a fundamental business lesson about efficiency 00:07:37.689 --> 00:07:41.139 and value. He lived it. Okay. Beyond teaching, 00:07:41.300 --> 00:07:43.980 his reputation as a producer really takes off 00:07:43.980 --> 00:07:46.939 in this period. Yeah. And the list of artists 00:07:46.939 --> 00:07:50.019 he produced, it's staggering in its variety. 00:07:50.319 --> 00:07:53.180 It really is the definition of versatility. The 00:07:53.180 --> 00:07:55.959 sources confirm productions for, okay, get this 00:07:55.959 --> 00:07:59.860 list, Moe's Allison. The wry, bluesy jazz philosopher. 00:08:00.220 --> 00:08:03.319 Okay. The intense, mystical, famously demanding 00:08:03.319 --> 00:08:05.939 rock poet. All right. Ricky Lee Jones. Quirky, 00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:08.160 narrative, highly unique singer -songwriter. 00:08:08.480 --> 00:08:11.199 Wow. And Diana Ross. Diana Ross. The Motown legend, 00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:14.180 the epitome of polished pop and R &B sophistication. 00:08:14.180 --> 00:08:17.399 That range is nuts. It really is. Think about 00:08:17.399 --> 00:08:19.259 the different approaches needed. Producing Moe's 00:08:19.259 --> 00:08:21.519 Allison is probably about capturing intimacy, 00:08:21.699 --> 00:08:23.839 subtlety, that unique vocal phrasing, maybe a 00:08:23.839 --> 00:08:25.699 minimalist approach. Yeah, you want it to feel 00:08:25.699 --> 00:08:28.259 authentic, close -up. Whereas producing Diana 00:08:28.259 --> 00:08:31.000 Ross, especially in her later career, you're 00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:33.059 likely dealing with much bigger productions, 00:08:33.240 --> 00:08:36.460 complex arrangements, aiming for that glossy 00:08:36.460 --> 00:08:39.720 commercial sound for pop radio. R &B rhythm sections, 00:08:40.100 --> 00:08:42.820 possibly string arrangements, background vocals. 00:08:43.200 --> 00:08:45.500 Totally different sonic worlds, different technical 00:08:45.500 --> 00:08:48.000 demands, different artistic temperaments to manage. 00:08:48.240 --> 00:08:50.580 Completely. The fact that all these artists with 00:08:50.580 --> 00:08:52.679 such distinct identities and presumably high 00:08:52.679 --> 00:08:55.580 standards trusted him to realize their vision. 00:08:56.479 --> 00:08:59.379 It says so much about his skill. It suggests 00:08:59.379 --> 00:09:02.860 he wasn't imposing a Ben Sidron sound, but acting 00:09:02.860 --> 00:09:05.279 as a facilitator, a translator, maybe. That's 00:09:05.279 --> 00:09:07.429 a great way to put it. He had the musical vocabulary, 00:09:07.669 --> 00:09:09.350 the technical chops, and maybe the intellectual 00:09:09.350 --> 00:09:11.649 empathy to understand what each artist needed 00:09:11.649 --> 00:09:14.149 and help them achieve it. Very few producers 00:09:14.149 --> 00:09:16.269 have that breadth. So while he's helping shape 00:09:16.269 --> 00:09:18.029 the sound of others, he's also building his own 00:09:18.029 --> 00:09:21.029 very substantial solo discography. Oh yeah, incredibly 00:09:21.029 --> 00:09:23.970 prolific. Over 35 solo albums. That's remarkable 00:09:23.970 --> 00:09:26.649 longevity and consistency, starting way back 00:09:26.649 --> 00:09:29.149 in 1970 with Feel Your Groove and going right 00:09:29.149 --> 00:09:31.990 up to Rainmaker, released in 2024. 50 plus years 00:09:31.990 --> 00:09:34.659 of solo records. And importantly, to maintain 00:09:34.659 --> 00:09:38.120 control over that output, especially his unique 00:09:38.120 --> 00:09:41.120 style, he moves into label ownership. He starts 00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:44.220 his own labels, Nardas and Gojazz. Why was that 00:09:44.220 --> 00:09:46.179 necessary? Was it just about creative freedom 00:09:46.179 --> 00:09:49.100 or were major labels not interested in his specific 00:09:49.100 --> 00:09:52.080 blend? It seems mostly about creative control. 00:09:52.340 --> 00:09:54.500 You know, major labels often want to put artists 00:09:54.500 --> 00:09:57.240 in a neat box. And Sidron's music deliberately 00:09:57.240 --> 00:10:01.600 blends jazz, pop sensibilities, and this intellectual 00:10:01.600 --> 00:10:04.279 spoken word commentary. That's hard to market 00:10:04.279 --> 00:10:07.059 easily. Right. Not easily categorized. So Nardis 00:10:07.059 --> 00:10:09.600 and Gojazz gave him the freedom to follow his 00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:12.429 muse. He could do an album reinterpreting Bob 00:10:12.429 --> 00:10:14.789 Dylan through a jazz lens like Dylan Different 00:10:14.789 --> 00:10:17.210 in 2009 or something more politically charged 00:10:17.210 --> 00:10:20.269 like Swing State in 2022. The labels were crucial 00:10:20.269 --> 00:10:23.350 for letting him be, well, himself, letting that 00:10:23.350 --> 00:10:25.769 existential side breathe. OK, let's dig into 00:10:25.769 --> 00:10:27.750 that phrase because The Times called him the 00:10:27.750 --> 00:10:29.970 first existential jazz rapper. It's such a unique 00:10:29.970 --> 00:10:31.970 description. What does it actually mean in terms 00:10:31.970 --> 00:10:34.429 of his performance style? It's such a brilliant 00:10:34.429 --> 00:10:36.190 encapsulation, actually. Let's break it down. 00:10:36.990 --> 00:10:41.230 Jazz is the foundation. The sophisticated harmonies, 00:10:41.230 --> 00:10:44.470 the improvisation, the often cool syncopated 00:10:44.470 --> 00:10:47.190 rhythms from his band. Okay, the musical bed. 00:10:47.409 --> 00:10:49.990 Right. Then rapper. Now this isn't like commercial 00:10:49.990 --> 00:10:53.129 hip -hop. It refers to his vocal delivery. It's 00:10:53.129 --> 00:10:55.889 often spoken word, rhythmic, conversational, 00:10:55.909 --> 00:10:58.070 sometimes almost a stream of consciousness flow 00:10:58.070 --> 00:11:00.870 over the music. He uses his voice for commentary, 00:11:01.029 --> 00:11:03.169 not just traditional singing. So rhythmic speech 00:11:03.169 --> 00:11:06.190 rather than melody sometimes. Often, yeah. And 00:11:06.190 --> 00:11:08.539 then the existential part. This ties right back 00:11:08.539 --> 00:11:10.460 to his literary and philosophical interests. 00:11:11.139 --> 00:11:13.139 Existentialism deals with themes of existence, 00:11:13.559 --> 00:11:17.340 freedom, choice, meaning. absurdity in modern 00:11:17.340 --> 00:11:19.700 life. And his lyrics tackle those kinds of themes. 00:11:20.019 --> 00:11:22.340 Directly. He'll comment on social trends, the 00:11:22.340 --> 00:11:24.559 irony of technology, the search for authenticity, 00:11:24.759 --> 00:11:27.259 philosophical questions, all delivered with this 00:11:27.259 --> 00:11:30.580 cool, detached, almost conversational tone, but 00:11:30.580 --> 00:11:32.940 rhythmically locked in with the band. So it's 00:11:32.940 --> 00:11:35.279 like the analytical brain from his PhD is providing 00:11:35.279 --> 00:11:37.740 the lyrical content and the seasoned musician 00:11:37.740 --> 00:11:39.960 is delivering it within a sophisticated jazz 00:11:39.960 --> 00:11:43.259 framework. Precisely. It's the perfect synthesis. 00:11:43.930 --> 00:11:46.730 He's using the bandstand almost like a forum 00:11:46.730 --> 00:11:49.970 for ideas, but making it groove. It makes that 00:11:49.970 --> 00:11:52.389 English lit degree seem just as vital to his 00:11:52.389 --> 00:11:55.490 music as his keyboard skills. He's fundamentally 00:11:55.490 --> 00:11:58.690 a commentator using music as his medium. That 00:11:58.690 --> 00:12:01.909 focus on commentary, on explaining things, seems 00:12:01.909 --> 00:12:04.929 like a natural bridge to the next major phase 00:12:04.929 --> 00:12:08.850 of his career, using media to demystify music. 00:12:09.399 --> 00:12:11.559 especially jazz. Absolutely. His broadcasting 00:12:11.559 --> 00:12:14.159 work is just as significant in many ways as his 00:12:14.159 --> 00:12:16.700 recordings. He became a really important voice 00:12:16.700 --> 00:12:18.960 in bringing jazz to a wider audience, making 00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:20.980 it accessible without dumbing it down. Starting 00:12:20.980 --> 00:12:23.320 with radio, right? And PR. Yeah. Beginning in 00:12:23.320 --> 00:12:25.860 1981, he hosted jazz programs for National Public 00:12:25.860 --> 00:12:28.279 Radio. The most famous was probably the Jazz 00:12:28.279 --> 00:12:30.659 Alive series. And Jazz Alive won a Peabody Award. 00:12:30.860 --> 00:12:32.899 That's, I mean, the highest honor in broadcasting. 00:12:33.259 --> 00:12:35.980 What made that show resonate so much? Well, Sidron 00:12:35.980 --> 00:12:38.360 wasn't just a DJ playing records. He was an insider. 00:12:38.809 --> 00:12:40.590 He knew the musicians. He understood the music 00:12:40.590 --> 00:12:42.830 deeply, but he could explain it. He framed the 00:12:42.830 --> 00:12:44.409 music within its cultural history, interviewed 00:12:44.409 --> 00:12:46.470 the artist, talked about the structures in a 00:12:46.470 --> 00:12:48.909 way that listeners could grasp. Making it less 00:12:48.909 --> 00:12:51.970 intimidating. Exactly. High -level stuff, but 00:12:51.970 --> 00:12:54.769 presented conversationally, without jargon or 00:12:54.769 --> 00:12:57.250 pretension. Perfect for anyone curious about 00:12:57.250 --> 00:13:00.129 jazz, but maybe put off by its complexity. He 00:13:00.129 --> 00:13:02.289 was translating. And he took that skill to television, 00:13:02.370 --> 00:13:04.970 too. VH1, which is interesting. That's a mainstream. 00:13:05.850 --> 00:13:08.710 pop and rock channel. Right. In the early 90s, 00:13:08.710 --> 00:13:11.330 he hosted a series called New Visions on VH1, 00:13:11.470 --> 00:13:13.870 and that won an Ace Award, which was the big 00:13:13.870 --> 00:13:16.909 cable award back then. So he's putting jazz and 00:13:16.909 --> 00:13:19.690 related music right in front of a huge mainstream 00:13:19.690 --> 00:13:22.250 audience. What was his goal there? He often talked 00:13:22.250 --> 00:13:24.450 about wanting to demystify the world of jazz. 00:13:24.669 --> 00:13:26.850 That was his mission statement, really. Demystify 00:13:26.850 --> 00:13:29.330 how? What was the philosophy behind that? He 00:13:29.330 --> 00:13:31.429 had this great quote, jazz musicians are just 00:13:31.429 --> 00:13:35.169 like the rest of us, only more so. Unpack that 00:13:35.169 --> 00:13:37.059 a bit. I think he meant that the things jazz 00:13:37.059 --> 00:13:39.919 musicians do, improvising, communicating complex 00:13:39.919 --> 00:13:42.899 emotions, collaborating intensely, taking risks, 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:45.200 these aren't alien activities. They're heightened 00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:47.700 versions of things we all do or aspire to do. 00:13:47.860 --> 00:13:50.059 They just express it through a very sophisticated 00:13:50.059 --> 00:13:52.659 musical language. He wanted to show the human 00:13:52.659 --> 00:13:54.820 connection, not just the technical brilliance. 00:13:55.019 --> 00:13:57.820 Acting as that bridge again, using his credibility 00:13:57.820 --> 00:14:00.679 as a musician and an intellectual to make it 00:14:00.679 --> 00:14:03.620 relatable. Perfectly put. And that commitment 00:14:03.620 --> 00:14:07.080 to explaining, to preserving the context, led 00:14:07.080 --> 00:14:10.279 to probably his most ambitious project, the Talking 00:14:10.279 --> 00:14:12.779 Jazz Collection. Which came out of his NTR interview 00:14:12.779 --> 00:14:15.879 show, Sidran on Record. Exactly. Talking Jazz 00:14:15.879 --> 00:14:17.639 isn't just a collection of interviews. It's a 00:14:17.639 --> 00:14:20.279 major historical archive. It was released as 00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:23.840 this massive 24 -CD box set. 24 CDs. Who was 00:14:23.840 --> 00:14:26.740 included? 60 jazz musicians. Recorded over five 00:14:26.740 --> 00:14:29.659 years. We're talking legends. Dizzy Lesby, Sonny 00:14:29.659 --> 00:14:32.720 Rollins, Art Blakey, and crucially... Miles Davis, 00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:35.500 capturing their voices, their perspectives in 00:14:35.500 --> 00:14:37.740 depth. Why the emphasis on the speaking voice? 00:14:38.039 --> 00:14:40.679 We have transcripts of lots of interviews. Ah, 00:14:40.840 --> 00:14:43.519 but the voice itself carries so much information 00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:48.639 that text loses. Tone, inflection, pauses, hesitations, 00:14:48.639 --> 00:14:51.820 emotion, personality. Think about Miles Davis, 00:14:52.059 --> 00:14:54.580 famously reserved, sometimes cryptic in print. 00:14:55.039 --> 00:14:58.220 Hearing him actually speak, the cadence, the 00:14:58.220 --> 00:15:00.990 attitude. It adds a whole different layer of 00:15:00.990 --> 00:15:02.950 understanding for historians, for listeners. 00:15:03.190 --> 00:15:05.509 It makes the history feel more immediate, more 00:15:05.509 --> 00:15:07.950 human. Totally. These recordings aren't just 00:15:07.950 --> 00:15:10.750 data, they're artifacts. They capture the sound 00:15:10.750 --> 00:15:12.830 of these creators reflecting on their own work 00:15:12.830 --> 00:15:15.909 and lives. It's invaluable primary source material. 00:15:16.169 --> 00:15:18.529 And the set itself was designed to support that 00:15:18.529 --> 00:15:20.649 historical value, right? Absolutely. It came 00:15:20.649 --> 00:15:23.230 with an 80 -page booklet. Essays, context, and 00:15:23.230 --> 00:15:25.129 importantly, classic photos by the great Lee 00:15:25.129 --> 00:15:27.250 Tanner. So you weren't just hearing the voices 00:15:27.250 --> 00:15:29.049 in isolation. You were getting the visual context, 00:15:29.110 --> 00:15:31.250 the critical analysis surrounding them. It was 00:15:31.250 --> 00:15:33.570 a really comprehensive, scholarly approach to 00:15:33.570 --> 00:15:35.990 presenting these conversations. Speaks volumes 00:15:35.990 --> 00:15:38.370 about his intellectual rigor. That rigor, that 00:15:38.370 --> 00:15:41.049 dedication to context and history flows perfectly 00:15:41.049 --> 00:15:43.710 into the fourth pillar. Sidron, the author, the 00:15:43.710 --> 00:15:46.230 music historian. Yeah, this is where that academic 00:15:46.230 --> 00:15:47.990 training really comes to the forefront again. 00:15:48.110 --> 00:15:50.789 His books aren't just memoirs. They're serious 00:15:50.789 --> 00:15:53.980 works of cultural history and sociology. applying 00:15:53.980 --> 00:15:56.740 those analytical skills directly to music. Let's 00:15:56.740 --> 00:15:58.879 talk about his early book, Black Talk. What was 00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:01.559 the core idea there? Black Talk, published back 00:16:01.559 --> 00:16:04.480 in 71, was pretty groundbreaking. Sidron argued 00:16:04.480 --> 00:16:07.659 that black musical forms, blues, jazz, gospel, 00:16:07.759 --> 00:16:10.820 R &B, weren't just entertainment. He saw them 00:16:10.820 --> 00:16:14.299 as complex systems of communication, deeply intertwined 00:16:14.299 --> 00:16:16.500 with the social and political realities of black 00:16:16.500 --> 00:16:20.299 life in America. How so? Connecting musical elements 00:16:20.299 --> 00:16:23.200 to social experience. Yes. He looked at things 00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:25.639 like improvisation, call and response patterns, 00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:28.220 rhythmic complexity, and argued they reflected 00:16:28.220 --> 00:16:30.419 specific cultural strategies for communication, 00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:33.179 expression, and even survival within a dominant, 00:16:33.320 --> 00:16:36.519 often oppressive white society. He treated the 00:16:36.519 --> 00:16:39.750 music itself as a vital social text. That's a 00:16:39.750 --> 00:16:41.610 powerful way to look at it. Music is a language 00:16:41.610 --> 00:16:44.389 carrying coded social meaning. He also wrote 00:16:44.389 --> 00:16:46.409 his memoir, of course, A Life in the Music. Right. 00:16:46.470 --> 00:16:48.809 Detailing his own incredible journey and the 00:16:48.809 --> 00:16:51.190 book version of Talking Jazz, collecting the 00:16:51.190 --> 00:16:53.450 interviews in print as well. But the book that 00:16:53.450 --> 00:16:56.309 gained major academic recognition was There Was 00:16:56.309 --> 00:16:59.639 a Fire. Jews, Music, and the American Dream. 00:16:59.840 --> 00:17:02.200 Yes, this was a major piece of cultural history. 00:17:02.320 --> 00:17:05.380 Really ambitious. What was its focus? The Jewish 00:17:05.380 --> 00:17:08.559 contribution to American music. Exactly. He explored 00:17:08.559 --> 00:17:11.240 the huge, often overlooked role that Jewish musicians, 00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:13.819 composers, songwriters, publishers, and producers 00:17:13.819 --> 00:17:16.539 played throughout the 20th century. He looked 00:17:16.539 --> 00:17:19.119 at how they often acted as crucial intermediaries, 00:17:19.180 --> 00:17:22.079 helping to shape, popularize, and bring Black 00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:25.359 musical forms like jazz and blues into the wider 00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:28.660 American mainstream. Think Tin Pan Alley, Broadway, 00:17:29.019 --> 00:17:31.819 Hollywood, jazz clubs. Exploring how their own 00:17:31.819 --> 00:17:34.819 experiences, immigration, assimilation, perhaps 00:17:34.819 --> 00:17:36.880 a tradition of textual interpretation, influenced 00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:39.500 the music business and the sound itself. Precisely. 00:17:39.519 --> 00:17:42.859 He dug into that complex cultural exchange, and 00:17:42.859 --> 00:17:45.670 the book got serious attention. It was a finalist 00:17:45.670 --> 00:17:48.430 for the National Jewish Book Award in 2012. That's 00:17:48.430 --> 00:17:50.470 significant validation from outside the music 00:17:50.470 --> 00:17:53.009 world. It absolutely is. It confirms his standing 00:17:53.009 --> 00:17:55.089 as a legitimate cultural historian, judged by 00:17:55.089 --> 00:17:57.869 scholarly standards. His analysis was taken seriously 00:17:57.869 --> 00:17:59.950 by the historical community, not just music fans. 00:18:00.170 --> 00:18:02.829 And he even wrote a biography of a fellow music 00:18:02.829 --> 00:18:05.650 industry figure, right? Yeah, The Ballad of Tommy 00:18:05.650 --> 00:18:08.009 LaPuma, about the legendary record producer. 00:18:08.490 --> 00:18:11.119 Which makes perfect sense. Because Sidron himself 00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:14.119 was a producer, he understood that world intimately. 00:18:14.359 --> 00:18:17.500 Exactly. Who better to write about a master producer 00:18:17.500 --> 00:18:20.200 than someone who's been in that chair, dealt 00:18:20.200 --> 00:18:22.359 with those pressures, made those kinds of creative 00:18:22.359 --> 00:18:24.720 and technical decisions with artists like Van 00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:28.079 Morrison or Diana Ross. He brought an insider's 00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:30.880 perspective to La Puma's story. So when you pull 00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:34.259 back and look at all four pillars, it all connects, 00:18:34.519 --> 00:18:37.349 doesn't it? It really does seem to. The English 00:18:37.349 --> 00:18:39.609 lit degree provides the analytical tools for 00:18:39.609 --> 00:18:42.029 the books and the insightful interviews. The 00:18:42.029 --> 00:18:44.430 session work provides the musical chops and the 00:18:44.430 --> 00:18:46.670 understanding for production. The production 00:18:46.670 --> 00:18:49.349 work informs the biography writing. And all of 00:18:49.349 --> 00:18:51.910 it somehow fuels that unique solo performance 00:18:51.910 --> 00:18:54.990 style. The existential jazz rapper. It's like 00:18:54.990 --> 00:18:57.210 his whole career was the necessary background 00:18:57.210 --> 00:18:59.490 research for that persona. You can almost see 00:18:59.490 --> 00:19:02.089 it that way. His life is the ultimate argument 00:19:02.089 --> 00:19:05.130 against narrow specialization. It shows how deep 00:19:05.130 --> 00:19:07.589 knowledge in one area, say, literary analysis, 00:19:07.750 --> 00:19:10.529 can cross -pollinate and enrich completely different 00:19:10.529 --> 00:19:13.109 fields. You really did embody that Renaissance 00:19:13.109 --> 00:19:16.470 ideal in a modern context. Okay, let's wrap this 00:19:16.470 --> 00:19:18.329 up with a quick review of those four pillars 00:19:18.329 --> 00:19:20.430 just to underscore the sheer breadth we've discussed. 00:19:20.609 --> 00:19:22.809 Another one, rock sideman and session musician. 00:19:23.150 --> 00:19:25.890 You got the Ardells, co -writing Space Cowboy, 00:19:25.950 --> 00:19:28.369 playing keys for Steve Miller, plus those crucial 00:19:28.369 --> 00:19:30.769 London sessions with Clapton, the Stone Circle. 00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:34.460 All while getting a Ph .D. Pillar two, the jazz 00:19:34.460 --> 00:19:37.700 innovator and sono artist. More than 35 albums 00:19:37.700 --> 00:19:39.980 that distinctive vocal style and taking control 00:19:39.980 --> 00:19:42.660 through his own labels, Nardes and Go Jazz. Pillar 00:19:42.660 --> 00:19:46.299 three, the master producer. Guiding artists across 00:19:46.299 --> 00:19:48.700 the spectrum. Mose Allison, Van Morrison, Ricky 00:19:48.700 --> 00:19:51.420 Lee Jones, Diana Ross. Incredible range. And 00:19:51.420 --> 00:19:54.039 pillar four, the academic broadcaster and author. 00:19:54.460 --> 00:19:57.660 Peabody for NPR's Jazz Alive, Ace Award for VH1's 00:19:57.660 --> 00:20:00.519 New Visions, the Vital Talking Jazz Archive, 00:20:00.539 --> 00:20:03.200 and significant books like Black Talk and the 00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:05.859 award -nominated There Was a Fire. So what's 00:20:05.859 --> 00:20:08.700 the takeaway for you, the listener? I think Sidron's 00:20:08.700 --> 00:20:11.559 life demonstrates that deep expertise doesn't 00:20:11.559 --> 00:20:14.339 have to live in a silo. That commitment he had 00:20:14.339 --> 00:20:17.200 to demystifying things suggests a core belief 00:20:17.200 --> 00:20:20.460 in education. In making connections. It shows 00:20:20.460 --> 00:20:23.240 that the skills are transferable, maybe. That 00:20:23.240 --> 00:20:25.500 analytical thinking can apply to literature, 00:20:25.759 --> 00:20:28.779 music, business. Exactly. He didn't just adapt 00:20:28.779 --> 00:20:31.859 to a fragmented world. He kind of forced it to 00:20:31.859 --> 00:20:34.640 accept his integrated vision. He built a career 00:20:34.640 --> 00:20:36.819 where all these different pursuits informed each 00:20:36.819 --> 00:20:39.039 other. He created his own context where everything 00:20:39.039 --> 00:20:41.880 fit together. Which leads us to our final thought 00:20:41.880 --> 00:20:44.210 for you to chew on. We talked a lot about how 00:20:44.210 --> 00:20:46.789 Sidron meticulously preserved the sound of jazz 00:20:46.789 --> 00:20:49.890 history with the Talking Jazz box set specifically, 00:20:50.130 --> 00:20:52.769 the speaking voices, recognizing their unique 00:20:52.769 --> 00:20:55.329 value. Right. The importance of audio as a primary 00:20:55.329 --> 00:20:57.450 source. So think about today. We're drowning 00:20:57.450 --> 00:21:00.099 in digital content. Countless interviews, podcasts, 00:21:00.599 --> 00:21:04.299 Zoom calls, clubhouse rooms, TikTok videos, ephemeral 00:21:04.299 --> 00:21:06.500 audio and video capturing potentially historic 00:21:06.500 --> 00:21:09.799 conversations, creative processes, spontaneous 00:21:09.799 --> 00:21:12.319 thoughts. Stuff that often disappears or gets 00:21:12.319 --> 00:21:15.200 lost in the noise. Exactly. So the question is. 00:21:15.799 --> 00:21:17.880 Are we archiving the essential voices of our 00:21:17.880 --> 00:21:20.539 own time, the actual sound of people talking, 00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:23.059 explaining, arguing, creating, with the same 00:21:23.059 --> 00:21:25.440 kind of care and intentionality that Sidron applied 00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:28.279 to those jazz legends? Or are we letting invaluable 00:21:28.279 --> 00:21:31.759 sonic history just evaporate? And what will that 00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:34.680 gap, that silence, cost future historians trying 00:21:34.680 --> 00:21:36.680 to understand us? A lot to think about there. 00:21:36.799 --> 00:21:38.579 What voices are we losing right now? Thanks for 00:21:38.579 --> 00:21:39.599 joining us on the Deep Dive.