WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.359 Welcome to the Deep Dive. Today, we're sort of 00:00:02.359 --> 00:00:05.040 digging into a figure who's been, well, consistently 00:00:05.040 --> 00:00:07.459 one of the funniest people in British comedy 00:00:07.459 --> 00:00:10.179 for, what, the last couple of decades? Robert 00:00:10.179 --> 00:00:12.300 Webb. Absolutely. And for so many people, he's 00:00:12.300 --> 00:00:14.519 just instantly jazz, isn't he? Jeremy Usborne 00:00:14.519 --> 00:00:18.100 from Peep Show, that perpetually chaotic, always 00:00:18.100 --> 00:00:20.699 optimistic, but yet deeply delusional flatmate. 00:00:20.800 --> 00:00:24.760 Exactly. Jazz. But that iconic performance, which, 00:00:24.780 --> 00:00:27.019 yeah, we'll definitely get into. It's really 00:00:27.019 --> 00:00:29.079 just scratching the surface, isn't it? Oh, totally. 00:00:29.260 --> 00:00:31.600 Our sources, they map out this really fascinating, 00:00:31.899 --> 00:00:34.539 sometimes kind of contradictory journey. We're 00:00:34.539 --> 00:00:36.619 looking at him going from this young guy who. 00:00:37.320 --> 00:00:39.479 Believe it or not, consciously tried to ditch 00:00:39.479 --> 00:00:42.439 his working class accent to becoming vice president 00:00:42.439 --> 00:00:44.219 of the Cambridge Footlights, which is, you know, 00:00:44.219 --> 00:00:47.179 a big deal. Then a BAFTA winning performer. And 00:00:47.179 --> 00:00:49.740 then more recently, this shift into being a really 00:00:49.740 --> 00:00:54.380 acclaimed memoirist and a very public voice on 00:00:54.380 --> 00:00:56.320 some pretty serious stuff. Like masculinity, 00:00:56.380 --> 00:00:59.619 addiction, health. Exactly. And that's really 00:00:59.619 --> 00:01:01.579 our mission today, isn't it? To try and trace 00:01:01.579 --> 00:01:04.719 that evolution. pulled together quite a bit of 00:01:04.719 --> 00:01:06.939 detail on his early life, which was complex. 00:01:07.519 --> 00:01:10.260 The start of that huge partnership with David 00:01:10.260 --> 00:01:12.920 Mitchell. Landmark. Yeah, landmark. Some moments 00:01:12.920 --> 00:01:14.799 where his career hit, you know, controversy. 00:01:15.359 --> 00:01:17.680 And then his solo writing, which is surprisingly 00:01:17.680 --> 00:01:21.060 serious. And these massive health challenges 00:01:21.060 --> 00:01:23.019 he's faced. Fundamentally, though, the starting 00:01:23.019 --> 00:01:28.000 point is English comedian, actor, writer. known 00:01:28.000 --> 00:01:30.879 best as half of Mitchell and Webb. And yeah, 00:01:31.000 --> 00:01:33.519 Jez is born in Peep Show is what really cemented 00:01:33.519 --> 00:01:35.340 him in the public consciousness. And Peep Show, 00:01:35.439 --> 00:01:37.260 it's worth remembering, ran for nine series. 00:01:37.719 --> 00:01:40.040 Nine. That made it Channel 4's longest running 00:01:40.040 --> 00:01:42.859 sitcom ever. Which is incredible longevity. But 00:01:42.859 --> 00:01:44.560 yeah, the real deep dive, I think, starts when 00:01:44.560 --> 00:01:46.599 we look at how maybe the vulnerabilities, the 00:01:46.599 --> 00:01:49.140 traumas of the guy behind Jez, how they eventually 00:01:49.140 --> 00:01:52.319 became the raw material for his later, more personal 00:01:52.319 --> 00:01:54.519 work. Okay, so let's unpack that from the start. 00:01:54.920 --> 00:01:57.620 You hear Robert Webb speak now. And it's that 00:01:57.620 --> 00:02:01.640 very neutral, almost RP, sort of placeless English 00:02:01.640 --> 00:02:05.060 accent. But his roots are somewhere very specific, 00:02:05.200 --> 00:02:08.240 aren't they? And his early life, well, it was 00:02:08.240 --> 00:02:10.259 pretty turbulent. Yeah. His roots are very much 00:02:10.259 --> 00:02:12.939 East Midlands. Robert Patrick Webb, born in Boston, 00:02:13.020 --> 00:02:16.419 Lincolnshire. That was September 29, 1972. And 00:02:16.419 --> 00:02:19.439 he grew up in Woodhall Spa, specifically on a 00:02:19.439 --> 00:02:21.439 council estate. Which, like you said, immediately 00:02:21.439 --> 00:02:23.939 kind of cuts against the grain of that typical 00:02:23.939 --> 00:02:26.860 Oxbridge comedy background. Totally. He went 00:02:26.860 --> 00:02:29.000 to Queen Elizabeth's grammar school in Horncastle. 00:02:29.539 --> 00:02:32.819 So this upbringing, you know, miles away from 00:02:32.819 --> 00:02:35.199 the London comedy scene, it really does set the 00:02:35.199 --> 00:02:37.599 scene for the things he writes about later class, 00:02:37.740 --> 00:02:39.949 identity, all that stuff in his memoir. And it 00:02:39.949 --> 00:02:41.770 wasn't just about where he grew up. The story 00:02:41.770 --> 00:02:43.750 of those early years involves some really profound 00:02:43.750 --> 00:02:47.310 loss and, well, change. It really does. His parents 00:02:47.310 --> 00:02:49.729 divorced when he was only five. Then his mother 00:02:49.729 --> 00:02:51.750 remarried about a year later. So there's already 00:02:51.750 --> 00:02:55.030 instability there. But the really huge life changing 00:02:55.030 --> 00:02:57.270 event happened when he was 17. Right when he 00:02:57.270 --> 00:03:00.370 was prepping for A -levels. Exactly. Lower sixth 00:03:00.370 --> 00:03:02.250 form, getting ready for those crucial exams. 00:03:02.729 --> 00:03:04.990 And his mother tragically died from breast cancer. 00:03:05.680 --> 00:03:07.439 I mean, that just completely throws everything 00:03:07.439 --> 00:03:09.280 off course. Must have been devastating. Yeah. 00:03:09.740 --> 00:03:12.240 And it meant he had to move in with his father, 00:03:12.300 --> 00:03:14.560 who, by his own account, he had a pretty difficult 00:03:14.560 --> 00:03:16.500 relationship with. And then he actually had to 00:03:16.500 --> 00:03:18.680 re -sit his A -levels because of the disruption. 00:03:19.139 --> 00:03:22.340 That kind of grief and upheaval at that age especially, 00:03:22.740 --> 00:03:25.639 it must shape everything. And the sources mentioned 00:03:25.639 --> 00:03:28.500 this incredible detail about how that trauma 00:03:28.500 --> 00:03:31.159 or maybe the feelings around it led to this really 00:03:31.159 --> 00:03:33.439 conscious decision about his identity. This is 00:03:33.439 --> 00:03:35.819 such a fascinating nugget. Yeah. The sources 00:03:35.819 --> 00:03:39.580 are specific. At age 13, 13. partly because he 00:03:39.580 --> 00:03:42.800 felt this resentment towards his father. He made 00:03:42.800 --> 00:03:45.560 a deliberate conscious choice to lose his local 00:03:45.560 --> 00:03:48.379 Lincolnshire accent. Wow. And the result is the 00:03:48.379 --> 00:03:50.639 neutral accent we hear now. It really suggests 00:03:50.639 --> 00:03:52.719 someone who was already, even as a teenager, 00:03:52.979 --> 00:03:55.939 incredibly aware of how he came across and maybe 00:03:55.939 --> 00:03:58.520 willing to, well, literally change how he sounded 00:03:58.520 --> 00:04:01.620 to escape something, a place, a past, maybe pain 00:04:01.620 --> 00:04:04.340 he associated with it all. So he gets through 00:04:04.340 --> 00:04:07.039 that incredibly tough time, resets his exams, 00:04:07.159 --> 00:04:09.620 and then... manages to get into Cambridge. He 00:04:09.620 --> 00:04:12.840 does. 1992, he goes up to Robinson College, Cambridge, 00:04:13.060 --> 00:04:16.579 to read English. And, you know, as often happens, 00:04:16.699 --> 00:04:18.939 talent finds its way. He gets drawn into the 00:04:18.939 --> 00:04:22.939 university's, well, legendary drama scene. And, 00:04:22.939 --> 00:04:26.350 crucially, he becomes a member of the Footlights. 00:04:26.509 --> 00:04:28.129 Maybe we should just quickly explain Footlights 00:04:28.129 --> 00:04:30.189 for anyone listening who isn't, you know, steeped 00:04:30.189 --> 00:04:33.069 in UK comedy history. It's significant. Yeah, 00:04:33.129 --> 00:04:35.389 good point. Footlights is basically Cambridge 00:04:35.389 --> 00:04:38.050 University's amateur theater club, but calling 00:04:38.050 --> 00:04:40.389 it that almost undersells it. It's arguably the 00:04:40.389 --> 00:04:42.910 most famous, most influential comedy nursery 00:04:42.910 --> 00:04:45.269 in the world. The alumni list is just ridiculous. 00:04:45.569 --> 00:04:47.990 It's insane. Peter Cook, all the pythons, Stephen 00:04:47.990 --> 00:04:50.410 Fry, Hugh Laurie, Emma Thompson, Sacha Baron 00:04:50.410 --> 00:04:52.750 Cohen. I mean, it goes on and on. So if you become 00:04:52.750 --> 00:04:55.029 the vice president, which Webb did, you're essentially 00:04:55.029 --> 00:04:57.589 involved in shaping the next wave of British 00:04:57.589 --> 00:04:59.949 comedy. And it was there in that environment 00:04:59.949 --> 00:05:02.589 that he met the person who would define so much 00:05:02.589 --> 00:05:06.189 of his career. The famous meeting, David Mitchell. 00:05:06.290 --> 00:05:08.959 How did that actually happen? It was pure footlights. 00:05:09.040 --> 00:05:12.079 In 1993, they were both in an audition for a 00:05:12.079 --> 00:05:14.660 footlights production of the Panama Cinderella. 00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:17.480 Cinderella, right? Yeah. And apparently, they 00:05:17.480 --> 00:05:19.420 clicked pretty quickly, realized they had this 00:05:19.420 --> 00:05:21.240 chemistry, not just personally, but comedically. 00:05:21.639 --> 00:05:23.480 And they started working together almost right 00:05:23.480 --> 00:05:25.680 away. I always find it interesting what these 00:05:25.680 --> 00:05:28.759 huge partnerships start with. Was their first 00:05:28.759 --> 00:05:31.100 project together like a sign of the genius to 00:05:31.100 --> 00:05:35.129 come? Huh. No, definitely not. Which is actually 00:05:35.129 --> 00:05:36.870 quite reassuring, isn't it? Yeah. Everyone starts 00:05:36.870 --> 00:05:39.290 somewhere. Their first proper collaboration, 00:05:39.550 --> 00:05:41.769 they put it on in January 95, had this amazing 00:05:41.769 --> 00:05:45.490 title, Innocent Millions, Dead or Dying, Arai. 00:05:46.069 --> 00:05:48.430 Look at the post -apocalyptic age with songs. 00:05:48.709 --> 00:05:52.370 Roths. Webb himself, looking back, didn't mince 00:05:52.370 --> 00:05:54.250 his words. He just called it Fing Terrible. Right. 00:05:54.589 --> 00:05:57.430 So ambitious title, maybe not the best execution, 00:05:57.589 --> 00:05:59.790 but it was probably a necessary failure. Helped 00:05:59.790 --> 00:06:01.230 them figure out what actually worked for them. 00:06:01.350 --> 00:06:04.990 So from a Fing Terrible start, they somehow evolve 00:06:04.990 --> 00:06:07.850 into one of the most, well, enduring and successful 00:06:07.850 --> 00:06:10.720 comedy partnerships we've seen. What happened 00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:13.000 after Cambridge? Did they just walk into their 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:15.779 own TV show? Oh, God, no. Far from it. They really 00:06:15.779 --> 00:06:18.139 had to put the work in as writers first. They 00:06:18.139 --> 00:06:20.759 spent time writing sketches, bits of material 00:06:20.759 --> 00:06:23.379 for acts who were already established. Alexander 00:06:23.379 --> 00:06:26.019 Armstrong and Ben Miller, notably. Right. The 00:06:26.019 --> 00:06:27.839 Armstrong and Miller show was big then. Yeah. 00:06:28.040 --> 00:06:30.699 And they wrote for series two of Big Train, which 00:06:30.699 --> 00:06:33.509 was that brilliant. slightly surreal sketch show. 00:06:33.730 --> 00:06:36.129 They'd do little acting bits, writing jobs on 00:06:36.129 --> 00:06:38.170 things like The Jack Daugherty Show, Comedy Nation. 00:06:38.470 --> 00:06:40.310 It was really their apprenticeship, learning 00:06:40.310 --> 00:06:42.290 the craft of writing professional TV comedy, 00:06:42.470 --> 00:06:44.769 how to structure a sketch, how to pitch ideas. 00:06:45.129 --> 00:06:47.430 When did they actually get to be in something 00:06:47.430 --> 00:06:50.350 regularly as performers? Well, the first kind 00:06:50.350 --> 00:06:52.610 of step into visibility on TV, where they were 00:06:52.610 --> 00:06:56.250 also the main writers, was in 2000, a BBC sketch 00:06:56.250 --> 00:06:58.089 show called Bruiser. It didn't last very long, 00:06:58.129 --> 00:07:00.230 Bruiser, but it was their first proper shot. 00:07:00.600 --> 00:07:04.279 And that led, a year later, 2001, to the Mitchell 00:07:04.279 --> 00:07:06.500 & Webb situation. That was a six -part sketch 00:07:06.500 --> 00:07:08.920 show, but it was on Play UK, which was one of 00:07:08.920 --> 00:07:10.600 those channels that doesn't exist anymore. Right, 00:07:10.620 --> 00:07:14.240 or Play UK, sort of. Yeah. So these early shows, 00:07:14.480 --> 00:07:16.819 they were crucial for them to kind of test out 00:07:16.819 --> 00:07:19.079 and refine that very specific style they have, 00:07:19.180 --> 00:07:22.259 that observational, slightly awkward, cringey 00:07:22.259 --> 00:07:24.980 comedy that became their thing. And all this 00:07:24.980 --> 00:07:27.139 was building towards the big one. the show that 00:07:27.139 --> 00:07:29.459 really defines them. Without a doubt. The absolute 00:07:29.459 --> 00:07:31.779 cornerstone of their career, the show that launched, 00:07:31.819 --> 00:07:34.939 well, probably millions of memes, is Peep Show. 00:07:35.319 --> 00:07:39.279 Started in 2003, ran all the way to 2015. Webb 00:07:39.279 --> 00:07:41.879 as Jeremy Jez Usborne. The aspiring musician, 00:07:42.139 --> 00:07:45.120 totally feckless. Yeah, the eternal slacker flatmate. 00:07:45.500 --> 00:07:47.579 Opposite David Mitchell's Mark Corgan is just 00:07:47.579 --> 00:07:50.100 this bundle of anxiety and neurosis. What was 00:07:50.100 --> 00:07:51.959 it about Peep Show that made it feel so different? 00:07:52.100 --> 00:07:54.160 It wasn't just another sitcom about flatmates. 00:07:54.439 --> 00:07:57.060 No, the format was the key thing, that innovation. 00:07:57.300 --> 00:07:59.699 It was nearly all shot from the character's point 00:07:59.699 --> 00:08:03.120 of view. So you, the viewer, were literally seeing 00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:05.379 the world through Mark's eyes or Jez's eyes. 00:08:05.639 --> 00:08:08.620 Hearing their thoughts. And crucially, yes, hearing 00:08:08.620 --> 00:08:10.740 their inner monologues. Yeah. So what they actually 00:08:10.740 --> 00:08:13.920 said was often completely at odds with the terrible 00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:16.579 or anxious or ridiculous things they were thinking. 00:08:17.100 --> 00:08:19.939 And Webb's jazz, his inner thoughts were usually 00:08:19.939 --> 00:08:22.920 so self -serving and, frankly, idiotic. It was 00:08:22.920 --> 00:08:25.439 the perfect foil to Mitchell's Mark, who was 00:08:25.439 --> 00:08:27.579 just constantly beating himself up inside his 00:08:27.579 --> 00:08:30.199 own head. It's a format that must demand a huge 00:08:30.199 --> 00:08:32.179 amount from the actors, that constant interior 00:08:32.179 --> 00:08:35.259 -exterior performance. Did the industry recognize 00:08:35.259 --> 00:08:38.480 how good they were in it? They did. I mean, Peep 00:08:38.480 --> 00:08:40.440 Show, it wasn't always a massive ratings hit. 00:08:40.789 --> 00:08:43.009 Bizarrely, but critics loved it. Mitchell and 00:08:43.009 --> 00:08:45.009 Webb, they shared the Royal Television Society 00:08:45.009 --> 00:08:48.309 Award for comedy performance back in 2007. Right. 00:08:48.509 --> 00:08:51.070 And while, yeah, they were often praised as a 00:08:51.070 --> 00:08:53.970 duo, Webb did get his own solo nomination for 00:08:53.970 --> 00:08:56.690 Best Television Comedy Actor in 2009. So there 00:08:56.690 --> 00:08:59.549 was definite recognition for his specific portrayal 00:08:59.549 --> 00:09:02.909 of Jez, that mix of, you know, chaos, but also 00:09:02.909 --> 00:09:05.090 a weird kind of vulnerability. And beyond the 00:09:05.090 --> 00:09:07.269 sitcom, they also became huge in sketch comedy, 00:09:07.429 --> 00:09:10.269 moving from radio to TV. Yeah, that was a really 00:09:10.269 --> 00:09:12.570 smooth, successful transition. They had the hit 00:09:12.570 --> 00:09:14.429 radio show first at Mitchell and Web Sound. It 00:09:14.429 --> 00:09:17.409 did five series on BBC Radio 4, won a Sony Silver 00:09:17.409 --> 00:09:19.490 Award, very well respected. Solid credentials. 00:09:19.870 --> 00:09:23.570 Totally. And that success basically paved the 00:09:23.570 --> 00:09:26.450 way for the TV adaptation, which became that 00:09:26.450 --> 00:09:29.330 Mitchell and Web look. Apparently, the producer, 00:09:29.610 --> 00:09:32.309 Gareth Edwards, said the pitch for the TV version 00:09:32.309 --> 00:09:34.450 was like the shortest pitch he'd ever written. 00:09:34.490 --> 00:09:36.330 Yeah. They basically just said, let's do the 00:09:36.330 --> 00:09:38.809 radio show on telly. Lasses the mistral because 00:09:38.809 --> 00:09:41.909 the material was already there and proven. Exactly. 00:09:42.450 --> 00:09:45.330 And that Mitchell and Webb look, it was a big 00:09:45.330 --> 00:09:48.009 deal in its own right. It won them the BAFTA 00:09:48.009 --> 00:09:52.190 for Best Comedy Program or Series in 2007. Got 00:09:52.190 --> 00:09:54.850 another nomination in 2009. So by this point, 00:09:54.870 --> 00:09:57.590 they really were the defining comedy duo of that 00:09:57.590 --> 00:09:59.529 era, weren't they? That sort of slightly anxious, 00:09:59.690 --> 00:10:02.409 observational, millennial -ish voice? Absolutely. 00:10:02.490 --> 00:10:04.870 They'd crack the sitcom, the radio sketch show, 00:10:04.929 --> 00:10:07.149 the TV sketch show. They were everywhere and 00:10:07.149 --> 00:10:09.149 critically acclaimed pretty much across the board. 00:10:09.289 --> 00:10:12.049 Did they try translating that success into other 00:10:12.049 --> 00:10:14.470 formats together, like film? Yeah, they gave 00:10:14.470 --> 00:10:18.009 film a go with Magicians in 2007. Webb played 00:10:18.009 --> 00:10:21.539 Carl, one half of this rival magic act. Okay. 00:10:21.600 --> 00:10:23.860 Not a huge hit. Right. They also did a short 00:10:23.860 --> 00:10:27.120 -lived series called Ambassadors in 2013. And 00:10:27.120 --> 00:10:29.659 then more recently, they reunited for Back, which 00:10:29.659 --> 00:10:32.519 ran from 2017 to 2021. That was more of a comedy 00:10:32.519 --> 00:10:35.200 drama, actually. Critically well -received. Explored 00:10:35.200 --> 00:10:37.539 some darker themes maybe than Peep Show. And 00:10:37.539 --> 00:10:39.200 there's an interesting story about a pilot they 00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:41.679 actually decided not to pursue, even though the 00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:43.990 channel wanted it. Shows a bit of integrity. 00:10:44.289 --> 00:10:46.210 Yeah, it's a great little anecdote about, I suppose, 00:10:46.370 --> 00:10:49.009 artistic control or maybe self -awareness. They 00:10:49.009 --> 00:10:51.669 filmed this pilot for BBC Two called Playing 00:10:51.669 --> 00:10:54.230 Shop. The concept was them running some kind 00:10:54.230 --> 00:10:56.370 of business out of a shed. Okay. And apparently 00:10:56.370 --> 00:10:58.090 the BBC really liked it. They were happy to go 00:10:58.090 --> 00:11:00.590 to series. But Mitchell and Webb themselves pulled 00:11:00.590 --> 00:11:03.370 the plug. Their reason was they felt the dynamic, 00:11:03.529 --> 00:11:06.789 the setting, the whole vibe was just too similar 00:11:06.789 --> 00:11:08.529 to Peep Show. They didn't want to just repeat 00:11:08.529 --> 00:11:10.909 themselves or, you know, dilute their biggest 00:11:10.909 --> 00:11:12.850 hit by doing something that felt like a pale 00:11:12.850 --> 00:11:15.669 imitation. Which I think shows they were thinking 00:11:15.669 --> 00:11:18.700 long term about their creative output. That idea 00:11:18.700 --> 00:11:20.820 of not wanting to repeat themselves or maybe 00:11:20.820 --> 00:11:23.600 wanting to branch out leads us kind of naturally 00:11:23.600 --> 00:11:25.779 into this next phase where they made a choice 00:11:25.779 --> 00:11:28.440 that, well, for a lot of their fans and critics 00:11:28.440 --> 00:11:30.899 too, felt like a step in a very different direction. 00:11:31.100 --> 00:11:34.279 A controversial one. The Apple ads. Ah, yes. 00:11:34.519 --> 00:11:37.279 The UK get a Mac campaign. This was, yeah, a 00:11:37.279 --> 00:11:39.519 pretty big moment in terms of commentary around 00:11:39.519 --> 00:11:41.200 them. For anyone who doesn't remember, this was 00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:44.379 Apple's big ad campaign. David Mitchell played 00:11:44.379 --> 00:11:47.519 the PC, nerdy, awkward, prone to problems. Some 00:11:47.519 --> 00:11:50.320 Murmur Corrigan -esque. Totally. And Robert Webb 00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:53.600 played the Mac, cool, sleek, confident, unflappable. 00:11:53.700 --> 00:11:56.940 And for a duo whose comedy often poked fun at 00:11:56.940 --> 00:11:59.100 corporate culture, at pretension, at exactly 00:11:59.100 --> 00:12:01.980 that kind of smugness, well. Doing these ads 00:12:01.980 --> 00:12:04.100 felt like a clash. And the backlash was pretty 00:12:04.100 --> 00:12:06.220 immediate and quite vicious, wasn't it? What 00:12:06.220 --> 00:12:08.460 was the core of the criticism? It really boiled 00:12:08.460 --> 00:12:10.759 down to selling out. That was the phrase everyone 00:12:10.759 --> 00:12:13.720 used. Charlie Brooker, never one to hold back, 00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:17.039 wrote this piece in The Guardian basically saying 00:12:17.039 --> 00:12:19.659 the casting completely backfired on Apple. How 00:12:19.659 --> 00:12:23.279 so? Because Webb was so strongly associated with 00:12:23.279 --> 00:12:28.059 Chez, who, let's be honest, was often a smug 00:12:28.059 --> 00:12:31.200 preening tosser, to use Brooker's words. It made 00:12:31.200 --> 00:12:32.940 the Mac character seem like that, too. It made 00:12:32.940 --> 00:12:36.799 Apple look smug, not cool. The British sitcom 00:12:36.799 --> 00:12:39.320 guide went even further, didn't they? They accused 00:12:39.320 --> 00:12:42.659 them flat out of selling their souls. Wow. Heavy 00:12:42.659 --> 00:12:45.259 stuff. How did Webb and Mitchell actually defend 00:12:45.259 --> 00:12:46.980 themselves against that kind of attack? Well, 00:12:47.059 --> 00:12:50.059 Webb's defense was incredibly, almost brutally 00:12:50.059 --> 00:12:52.620 pragmatic. There's a specific quote where he 00:12:52.620 --> 00:12:54.360 basically cuts through all the artistic hand 00:12:54.360 --> 00:12:56.399 -wringing and just talks money. He said, look, 00:12:56.500 --> 00:12:58.700 when someone offers you the pay equivalent of 00:12:58.700 --> 00:13:00.799 an entire series of peep show for just a few 00:13:00.799 --> 00:13:02.679 days work. Right. The answer is pretty much always 00:13:02.679 --> 00:13:04.360 going to be, yeah, that's fine. It was just a 00:13:04.360 --> 00:13:06.279 professional calculation for him. Which does 00:13:06.279 --> 00:13:08.620 put it in perspective. Peep show was love, but 00:13:08.620 --> 00:13:10.200 maybe it wasn't making the millionaires overnight 00:13:10.200 --> 00:13:12.919 at that point. Exactly. And Mitchell added to 00:13:12.919 --> 00:13:15.220 that defense, didn't he? He sort of argued, look, 00:13:15.360 --> 00:13:17.320 it's just an ad. We're not doing anything morally 00:13:17.320 --> 00:13:20.259 wrong here. His line was something like, it's 00:13:20.259 --> 00:13:22.179 not like we're helping to flog a baby killing 00:13:22.179 --> 00:13:26.360 machine. Right. So they saw it as a job, a very 00:13:26.360 --> 00:13:28.840 well -paid acting job. But yeah, the perception 00:13:28.840 --> 00:13:31.220 from a chunk of their fan base was definitely 00:13:31.220 --> 00:13:34.200 one of disappointment that their anti -establishment 00:13:34.200 --> 00:13:35.639 heroes had kind of joined the establishment. 00:13:36.289 --> 00:13:39.070 Away from the double act, though, Webb has actually 00:13:39.070 --> 00:13:41.990 built up quite a varied solo career, showing 00:13:41.990 --> 00:13:45.090 he could do more than just be Jez. What are some 00:13:45.090 --> 00:13:47.590 of the standout roles he took on without Mitchell? 00:13:47.909 --> 00:13:49.929 Yeah, he's done quite a bit. He was in that sitcom 00:13:49.929 --> 00:13:52.610 The Smoking Room for a while, played Robin in 00:13:52.610 --> 00:13:55.629 17 episodes between 2004, 2005. Quite a different 00:13:55.629 --> 00:13:58.110 vibe. Yeah. And importantly, he took on a more 00:13:58.110 --> 00:14:01.250 sort of buttoned up academic role in Fresh Meat, 00:14:01.330 --> 00:14:03.409 the Channel 4 uni comedy. Oh, yeah. He played 00:14:03.409 --> 00:14:07.039 Dan, the geology lecturer. That's the one. 2011. 00:14:07.039 --> 00:14:09.259 Showed a different side. Less manic than Jess. 00:14:09.460 --> 00:14:12.720 He also starred in that slightly bizarre Dickensian 00:14:12.720 --> 00:14:15.740 spoof comedy, The Bleak Old Shop of Stuff, played 00:14:15.740 --> 00:14:18.379 Jedrington's secret past. That was 2011 -2012. 00:14:18.539 --> 00:14:20.679 And that's actually where he met his wife, Abigail 00:14:20.679 --> 00:14:24.159 Burtis. Ah, okay. And he also became a real regular 00:14:24.159 --> 00:14:26.240 on the panel show circuit, didn't he? Which needs 00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:28.259 a different kind of quick wit. Absolutely. He 00:14:28.259 --> 00:14:30.460 became... Almost ubiquitous for a while. You'd 00:14:30.460 --> 00:14:32.179 see him all the time on QI. He's really good 00:14:32.179 --> 00:14:34.700 on that. He's hosted Have I Got News For You, 00:14:34.740 --> 00:14:37.220 hosted Nevermind the Buzzcocks. It showed his 00:14:37.220 --> 00:14:39.320 confidence, his ability to think on his feet, 00:14:39.419 --> 00:14:42.419 handle unscripted comedy, cemented him as a sort 00:14:42.419 --> 00:14:45.419 of, well, recognizable public comedy intellectual, 00:14:45.700 --> 00:14:48.620 I suppose. And we can't forget the dancing. Definitely 00:14:48.620 --> 00:14:50.980 not. His win on Let's Dance for Comic Relief 00:14:50.980 --> 00:14:53.639 in 2009, that parody of the Flashdance audition 00:14:53.639 --> 00:14:57.320 scene. It was genuinely brilliant physical comedy. 00:14:57.789 --> 00:15:00.289 Unexpected maybe, but hilarious. He did some 00:15:00.289 --> 00:15:02.970 presenting and narrating too. Yeah, a bit. Hosted 00:15:02.970 --> 00:15:05.669 an online news thing for Channel 4 called Robert's 00:15:05.669 --> 00:15:09.070 Web back in 2010. And he narrated that series 00:15:09.070 --> 00:15:12.210 10 Things I Hate About in 2012, which was all 00:15:12.210 --> 00:15:14.429 about puncturing nostalgia. Again, fitting that 00:15:14.429 --> 00:15:17.490 slightly cynical, observant voice he has. But 00:15:17.490 --> 00:15:19.649 I think if we're looking for the anecdote that 00:15:19.649 --> 00:15:23.049 really sums up maybe his commitment to a role 00:15:23.049 --> 00:15:26.259 or perhaps a certain naivety back then. We have 00:15:26.259 --> 00:15:28.879 to talk about the film Confetti. Oh, God, yes. 00:15:29.299 --> 00:15:32.320 This is an old timer. Yeah. So, 2006, the film 00:15:32.320 --> 00:15:35.120 Confetti. Webb plays a naturist alongside Olivia 00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:37.080 Colman. There are a couple competing in this 00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:39.259 competition for the most original wedding. Right, 00:15:39.320 --> 00:15:41.639 and he agreed to play a naturist. Under one very 00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:44.200 specific, very important assumption, he was apparently 00:15:44.200 --> 00:15:46.779 absolutely convinced, assured even, that any 00:15:46.779 --> 00:15:48.860 shots showing his genitals would be blurred out, 00:15:48.940 --> 00:15:50.960 pixelated in the final film. You know, standard 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:53.279 practice often. Okay. I sense where this is going. 00:15:53.559 --> 00:15:56.639 Yep. The moment of horror came at the actual 00:15:56.639 --> 00:15:59.000 screening of the finished film. He sat down, 00:15:59.120 --> 00:16:03.340 watched it, and realized. Nope. No pixelation. 00:16:03.399 --> 00:16:06.559 Nothing blurred. He was, well, fully naked on 00:16:06.559 --> 00:16:09.000 screen for everyone to see. He'd inadvertently 00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:11.830 given a very revealing performance. Speaks volumes 00:16:11.830 --> 00:16:13.929 about the unpredictable nature of filmmaking, 00:16:14.129 --> 00:16:15.970 I suppose. OK, so we've followed him through 00:16:15.970 --> 00:16:18.269 the comedy heights, the advertising controversy, 00:16:18.649 --> 00:16:21.309 the panel show ubiquity. But maybe the biggest 00:16:21.309 --> 00:16:23.769 shift in how we see Robert Webb, his public identity, 00:16:23.990 --> 00:16:26.289 starts when he moves beyond just writing jokes 00:16:26.289 --> 00:16:28.330 and starts writing about himself. Yeah, this 00:16:28.330 --> 00:16:30.799 is where he really transitions from. primarily 00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:34.080 a performer to also being a writer, a memoirist. 00:16:34.200 --> 00:16:35.879 I mean, the writing career technically started 00:16:35.879 --> 00:16:37.500 with Mitchell, didn't it? They put out this Mitchell 00:16:37.500 --> 00:16:40.240 and Webb book in 2009. Right, and that shorter 00:16:40.240 --> 00:16:41.899 version, How to Cope with Mitchell and Webb. 00:16:42.059 --> 00:16:44.539 Exactly. They were popular enough that they got 00:16:44.539 --> 00:16:47.740 signed for a two -book deal. Although, interestingly, 00:16:48.059 --> 00:16:50.460 the sources say that second book never actually 00:16:50.460 --> 00:16:53.600 materialized, at least as of 2013. And before 00:16:53.600 --> 00:16:55.480 the memoir, he also dipped his toe into writing 00:16:55.480 --> 00:16:57.860 commentary, didn't he, for The Telegraph? He 00:16:57.860 --> 00:17:01.700 did, yeah. Between 2009 and 2011, he wrote opinion 00:17:01.700 --> 00:17:04.019 columns for the Telegraph's comment section. 00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:06.779 And what he said about that experience later 00:17:06.779 --> 00:17:09.740 is really quite telling, especially given what 00:17:09.740 --> 00:17:11.579 we know now about his health. What did he say? 00:17:11.759 --> 00:17:13.740 He admitted finding it incredibly stressful, 00:17:13.880 --> 00:17:16.039 said it would take him like a day and a half 00:17:16.039 --> 00:17:18.180 to do a piece that should have taken maybe three 00:17:18.180 --> 00:17:21.319 hours. And he added this really candid detail 00:17:21.319 --> 00:17:23.900 that he was often getting drunk. while trying 00:17:23.900 --> 00:17:26.039 to write them to cope with the pressure or the 00:17:26.039 --> 00:17:29.420 difficulty. Wow. That link between stress, performing 00:17:29.420 --> 00:17:32.410 in public, and drinking. That really resonates 00:17:32.410 --> 00:17:35.210 with his later story. It absolutely does. It 00:17:35.210 --> 00:17:37.369 feels like a thread. And maybe that struggle, 00:17:37.490 --> 00:17:39.829 that vulnerability paved the way for his first 00:17:39.829 --> 00:17:41.930 really big solo project, the book that kind of 00:17:41.930 --> 00:17:44.950 redefined him for a lot of people, the memoir 00:17:44.950 --> 00:17:47.650 How Not to Be a Boy in 2017. That book made a 00:17:47.650 --> 00:17:51.049 real splash, didn't it? Huge splash. It focused 00:17:51.049 --> 00:17:53.410 right in on his childhood in Lincolnshire, growing 00:17:53.410 --> 00:17:55.609 up working class, the huge impact of his mother 00:17:55.609 --> 00:17:59.109 dying so young, and his whole struggle with what 00:17:59.109 --> 00:18:01.369 it means to be a man, the pressure. of masculinity, 00:18:01.809 --> 00:18:04.970 it clearly struck a chord. It was BBC Radio 4's 00:18:04.970 --> 00:18:07.369 book of the week. Got loads of attention. What 00:18:07.369 --> 00:18:09.450 was the sort of central message he was trying 00:18:09.450 --> 00:18:12.869 to get across about boyhood or masculinity? The 00:18:12.869 --> 00:18:15.569 main argument really was about the harm caused 00:18:15.569 --> 00:18:18.309 by those traditional expectations placed on boys 00:18:18.309 --> 00:18:20.190 and men. You know, the whole stiff upper lip 00:18:20.190 --> 00:18:22.210 thing, hide your feelings, don't be vulnerable. 00:18:22.650 --> 00:18:25.970 Webb basically argued that's... incredibly damaging. 00:18:26.049 --> 00:18:28.309 Yeah. And he used his own life story, the grief, 00:18:28.369 --> 00:18:30.950 the confusion after his mom died as exhibit A 00:18:30.950 --> 00:18:32.910 for why that needs to change. And while he was 00:18:32.910 --> 00:18:35.109 exploring all that, dismantling those norms, 00:18:35.289 --> 00:18:37.250 he also showed something very personal that hadn't 00:18:37.250 --> 00:18:39.069 been public knowledge before. Yeah, that was 00:18:39.069 --> 00:18:40.710 another significant part of the book's impact. 00:18:41.210 --> 00:18:44.299 It was in How Not to Be a Boy. that he publicly 00:18:44.299 --> 00:18:47.180 revealed he is bisexual. Which felt very much 00:18:47.180 --> 00:18:49.980 in keeping with the book's themes. Exactly. It 00:18:49.980 --> 00:18:53.359 fit perfectly with that core message about authenticity, 00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:56.799 about rejecting these narrow, rigid boxes that 00:18:56.799 --> 00:19:00.200 society or maybe toxic masculinity tries to put 00:19:00.200 --> 00:19:03.500 men into. It was him practicing what he preached, 00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:05.900 using his own vulnerability to make a bigger 00:19:05.900 --> 00:19:08.299 point about acceptance and honesty. And after 00:19:08.299 --> 00:19:10.200 the memoir was such a success, he then turned 00:19:10.200 --> 00:19:12.960 to fiction writing. He did. Published his first 00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:16.299 novel, Come Again, in 2020 with Canongate. A 00:19:16.299 --> 00:19:18.140 totally different challenge, obviously, moving 00:19:18.140 --> 00:19:20.500 into crafting fictional narratives rather than 00:19:20.500 --> 00:19:22.339 drawing directly on his own life. Let's touch 00:19:22.339 --> 00:19:24.599 on one other reflection from around this time, 00:19:24.660 --> 00:19:27.180 his changing views on religion or belief after 00:19:27.180 --> 00:19:29.299 his mother's death. Yeah, this is a really interesting 00:19:29.299 --> 00:19:32.740 and quite poignant insight into how grief can 00:19:32.740 --> 00:19:35.460 shake your foundations. Webb said that before 00:19:35.460 --> 00:19:37.779 his mom died, he was very much a swaggering atheist. 00:19:38.509 --> 00:19:41.009 Completely non -believing. Right. But in an immediate 00:19:41.009 --> 00:19:43.869 raw aftermath of losing her, he actually found 00:19:43.869 --> 00:19:45.970 himself starting to pray. He talked about it 00:19:45.970 --> 00:19:47.750 not as a genuine conversion, though, more like 00:19:47.750 --> 00:19:50.769 a desperate coping mechanism, something, anything 00:19:50.769 --> 00:19:53.289 to try and handle that overwhelming grief. But 00:19:53.289 --> 00:19:56.269 it didn't stick. No. He said eventually he did 00:19:56.269 --> 00:19:59.140 return to total non -belief. But he framed it 00:19:59.140 --> 00:20:01.400 as happening only after he'd learned how to sort 00:20:01.400 --> 00:20:04.539 of coexist with her death, how to integrate that 00:20:04.539 --> 00:20:07.440 loss into his life rather than trying to, I suppose, 00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:10.079 bargain with it through prayer. It's a really 00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:12.460 nuanced take on belief and bereavement. That 00:20:12.460 --> 00:20:14.839 openness he found in his writing, it feels like 00:20:14.839 --> 00:20:17.660 it became crucial context when his private life 00:20:17.660 --> 00:20:20.640 took this incredibly dramatic, serious turn with 00:20:20.640 --> 00:20:22.920 a medical emergency. Before we get to that, though, 00:20:23.019 --> 00:20:25.619 just briefly. His family life. Yeah, he married 00:20:25.619 --> 00:20:27.720 Abigail Burgess, who's also a comedian and writer, 00:20:27.799 --> 00:20:30.559 back in 2006. We mentioned they met working on 00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:33.339 the bleak old shop of stuff. And fittingly, David 00:20:33.339 --> 00:20:35.420 Mitchell was his best man. Of course he was. 00:20:35.579 --> 00:20:37.200 They live in West Hampstead, London, and they 00:20:37.200 --> 00:20:39.240 have two daughters. So it seems like a pretty 00:20:39.240 --> 00:20:41.519 stable, settled personal life, which is quite 00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:44.180 the contrast to Jez Osborne. Definitely. Okay, 00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:46.859 so now the health crisis in 2020. This sounded 00:20:46.859 --> 00:20:49.299 absolutely terrifying. It really did. It was 00:20:49.299 --> 00:20:52.000 an emergency situation. He needed urgent heart 00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:55.019 surgery. for a condition called mitral valve 00:20:55.019 --> 00:20:58.019 prolapse, which basically, for anyone listening, 00:20:58.200 --> 00:21:01.500 is a serious issue where one of the heart's main 00:21:01.500 --> 00:21:03.839 valves, the one between the top and bottom left 00:21:03.839 --> 00:21:06.960 chambers, doesn't close properly. So blood leaks 00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:09.480 backward. Exactly. Puts immense strain on the 00:21:09.480 --> 00:21:12.019 heart. If you don't treat it, it can be fatal. 00:21:12.509 --> 00:21:14.970 And the really, really shocking part of the story, 00:21:15.069 --> 00:21:18.390 reading the sources, is how he'd been explaining 00:21:18.390 --> 00:21:20.230 away the symptoms himself. This is where it all 00:21:20.230 --> 00:21:22.630 connects back to the memoir, the drinking, the 00:21:22.630 --> 00:21:25.349 stiff upper lip, maybe. Webb had been having 00:21:25.349 --> 00:21:27.430 serious symptoms, apparently things like shortness 00:21:27.430 --> 00:21:30.710 of breath, extreme fatigue. But because of his 00:21:30.710 --> 00:21:32.990 lifestyle at the time, the heavy drinking he 00:21:32.990 --> 00:21:35.789 later admitted to, he just dismissed them. He 00:21:35.789 --> 00:21:38.829 thought it was just... The booze. Yeah. He actually 00:21:38.829 --> 00:21:40.890 said something like, I just assumed that's the 00:21:40.890 --> 00:21:42.930 booze. I thought this is what you feel like when 00:21:42.930 --> 00:21:45.049 you're 47 and you treat your body like a skip. 00:21:45.529 --> 00:21:48.109 It's a really painful quote. God. So he basically 00:21:48.109 --> 00:21:50.990 thought he felt awful because he deserved to 00:21:50.990 --> 00:21:52.869 feel awful because of how he was living, not 00:21:52.869 --> 00:21:54.730 because he had a life threatening heart defect. 00:21:54.809 --> 00:21:57.789 Pretty much. Yeah. Which makes the eventual diagnosis 00:21:57.789 --> 00:22:01.450 this massive sudden wake up call. Yeah. It forced 00:22:01.450 --> 00:22:04.019 him to confront everything. His health. his drinking, 00:22:04.099 --> 00:22:06.380 maybe that tendency to ignore warning signs. 00:22:06.859 --> 00:22:09.099 And the immediate consequence of the surgery, 00:22:09.299 --> 00:22:11.759 which was successful, thankfully, was that he 00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:13.960 stopped drinking completely. Right. He became 00:22:13.960 --> 00:22:16.579 sober. Totally sober. He called his drinking 00:22:16.579 --> 00:22:19.460 towards the end, certainly an addiction. A dependency. 00:22:19.940 --> 00:22:22.319 Said he realized the habit had crawled up so 00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:25.140 gradually that I was slow killing myself. The 00:22:25.140 --> 00:22:27.319 health scare, in a way, became the ultimate terrifying 00:22:27.319 --> 00:22:30.259 proof of what he'd written about ignoring your 00:22:30.259 --> 00:22:32.319 body, ignoring your feelings. It's dangerous. 00:22:32.599 --> 00:22:35.420 And this ongoing recovery process then had a 00:22:35.420 --> 00:22:37.559 direct impact on his appearance on a certain 00:22:37.559 --> 00:22:41.500 very glittery TV show. Chuckles. Yes, his heart 00:22:41.500 --> 00:22:43.579 condition unfortunately cut short his time on 00:22:43.579 --> 00:22:45.980 Strictly Come Dancing in 2021. He was partnered 00:22:45.980 --> 00:22:48.460 with Diane Buswell, but he had to withdraw. after 00:22:48.460 --> 00:22:51.299 just three weeks, three dances. Why specifically? 00:22:51.700 --> 00:22:54.079 He explained that he'd started having some worrying 00:22:54.079 --> 00:22:56.339 symptoms again related to the heart condition, 00:22:56.500 --> 00:23:00.099 and his heart specialist basically gave him very 00:23:00.099 --> 00:23:03.579 strong advice to pull out. Webb himself said 00:23:03.579 --> 00:23:05.920 quite candidly that he'd bitten off way more 00:23:05.920 --> 00:23:07.940 than I could chew for this stage in my recovery, 00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:10.759 prioritizing his long -term health over the show. 00:23:11.220 --> 00:23:13.869 Sensible decision. Okay, the final area we need 00:23:13.869 --> 00:23:16.369 to touch on is his engagement with some quite 00:23:16.369 --> 00:23:19.509 heated political and cultural debates. He seems 00:23:19.509 --> 00:23:21.130 to have approached these with a similar kind 00:23:21.130 --> 00:23:24.589 of candor as his memoir, which maybe predictably 00:23:24.589 --> 00:23:28.039 landed him in hot water sometimes. We need to 00:23:28.039 --> 00:23:29.740 look at this neutrally, of course, starting with 00:23:29.740 --> 00:23:31.940 his politics. Yes, absolutely. Just reporting 00:23:31.940 --> 00:23:34.259 what the sources say. He definitely has a history 00:23:34.259 --> 00:23:36.539 with the Labor Party. For a long time, he was 00:23:36.539 --> 00:23:38.480 a very vocal supporter. He actually joined the 00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:41.039 party in 2013. And he said it was specifically 00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:43.460 in protest against that Russell Brand interview 00:23:43.460 --> 00:23:45.839 where Brand suggested people shouldn't bother 00:23:45.839 --> 00:23:49.099 voting. Webb felt strongly about civic duty. 00:23:49.220 --> 00:23:52.400 But he didn't stick with labor. No. His relationship 00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:54.759 with the party leadership soured quite significantly. 00:23:55.549 --> 00:23:58.670 By November 2015, he publicly announced he was 00:23:58.670 --> 00:24:01.710 leaving labor. He cited a complete lack of confidence 00:24:01.710 --> 00:24:03.809 in Jeremy Corbyn's leadership at the time. He 00:24:03.809 --> 00:24:05.950 used some pretty strong words, didn't he? He 00:24:05.950 --> 00:24:08.690 did. He specifically mentioned Simus Milne being 00:24:08.690 --> 00:24:11.130 appointed as Corbyn's press secretary, saying 00:24:11.130 --> 00:24:13.450 that paying his labor subscription while Milne 00:24:13.450 --> 00:24:17.210 was in that post made him feel sick. So clearly 00:24:17.210 --> 00:24:19.670 very strong feelings. Although it's worth noting, 00:24:19.769 --> 00:24:21.789 despite leaving and expressing that opposition, 00:24:22.109 --> 00:24:25.009 he did then endorse labor again in the 2017 general 00:24:25.009 --> 00:24:27.569 election. So a slightly complex picture there. 00:24:27.690 --> 00:24:30.569 OK. And then finally, the area that's probably 00:24:30.569 --> 00:24:32.930 generated the most persistent controversy and 00:24:32.930 --> 00:24:36.130 criticism. His comments on gender identity issues. 00:24:36.410 --> 00:24:39.109 Right. So back in 2018, Robert Webb publicly 00:24:39.109 --> 00:24:41.210 gave his support to a newspaper article that 00:24:41.210 --> 00:24:43.309 was critical of mermaids, which is a well -known 00:24:43.309 --> 00:24:45.309 UK charity that supports transgender children 00:24:45.309 --> 00:24:47.809 and their families. And he defined his own position. 00:24:48.089 --> 00:24:50.549 Yes. Subsequently, he identified himself as being 00:24:50.549 --> 00:24:52.730 gender critical or a gender critical feminist. 00:24:53.349 --> 00:24:56.609 But he also insisted at the same time that he 00:24:56.609 --> 00:25:00.180 opposes transphobia. The position tends to involve 00:25:00.180 --> 00:25:02.420 concerns around things like self -identification 00:25:02.420 --> 00:25:05.599 versus biological sex, the implications for women 00:25:05.599 --> 00:25:09.920 -only spaces, and approaches to gender dysphoria 00:25:09.920 --> 00:25:12.740 in children. And that stance put him right into 00:25:12.740 --> 00:25:15.500 a very polarized, very intense cultural debate. 00:25:15.799 --> 00:25:19.180 Absolutely. A very fiery debate. The sources 00:25:19.180 --> 00:25:21.640 note he stood by those initial comments and interviews 00:25:21.640 --> 00:25:24.460 he gave in 2020. However, it's also noted that 00:25:24.460 --> 00:25:26.160 when he was asked about it again, specifically 00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:28.559 about his criticisms of mermaids during an NPR 00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:31.619 interview in 2021, he sort of declined to get 00:25:31.619 --> 00:25:34.000 back into the specifics. Why was that? He apparently 00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:36.039 said he couldn't quite remember the exact details 00:25:36.039 --> 00:25:38.380 of the original article he'd supported and also 00:25:38.380 --> 00:25:40.339 felt that the whole debate had just become incredibly 00:25:40.339 --> 00:25:42.660 overheated in the intervening years. And we should 00:25:42.660 --> 00:25:44.559 acknowledge the reaction his stance provoked. 00:25:44.660 --> 00:25:47.349 Yes. It's important, just factually reporting, 00:25:47.609 --> 00:25:50.089 to state that our sources confirm he received 00:25:50.089 --> 00:25:52.690 significant criticism for this position from 00:25:52.690 --> 00:25:55.230 various LGBT news outlets, from some charities, 00:25:55.349 --> 00:25:57.769 and from activists within the trans community 00:25:57.769 --> 00:26:00.910 and beyond. It really highlights how a public 00:26:00.910 --> 00:26:03.509 figure, even one known primarily for comedy, 00:26:03.670 --> 00:26:06.069 can become a focal point in these complex cultural 00:26:06.069 --> 00:26:08.630 arguments, regardless of the nuance they might 00:26:08.630 --> 00:26:10.940 intend. We're just outlining the stance and the 00:26:10.940 --> 00:26:13.039 reaction, not taking a side. It really is an 00:26:13.039 --> 00:26:15.000 extraordinary picture, isn't it? Quite contradictory 00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:18.000 in places. The man who gave us Jez Usborne, this 00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:21.579 icon of hilarious fecklessness, is also this 00:26:21.579 --> 00:26:24.420 incredibly reflective writer who stared down, 00:26:24.519 --> 00:26:27.019 well, near fatal illness and waded into some 00:26:27.019 --> 00:26:29.339 really thorny public debates. I think the big 00:26:29.339 --> 00:26:31.079 takeaway really is just how much Robert Webb 00:26:31.079 --> 00:26:33.700 has evolved in the public eye. That comedy partnership 00:26:33.700 --> 00:26:35.680 with Mitchell, it was the bedrock, obviously. 00:26:36.349 --> 00:26:38.650 But his later solo work, it's just defined by 00:26:38.650 --> 00:26:40.549 this increasing vulnerability, this openness. 00:26:40.829 --> 00:26:43.869 He's used his platform, his fame, to talk about 00:26:43.869 --> 00:26:46.630 things that are deeply personal and often difficult. 00:26:46.829 --> 00:26:50.029 His bisexuality, the impact of losing his mom 00:26:50.029 --> 00:26:52.589 so young, that terrifying heart scare, his battle 00:26:52.589 --> 00:26:55.490 with addiction. And not just as therapy for himself, 00:26:55.609 --> 00:26:58.349 but seemingly to genuinely contribute to wider 00:26:58.349 --> 00:27:00.210 conversations, particularly around masculinity 00:27:00.210 --> 00:27:03.039 and emotional honesty. He really does seem to 00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:06.539 embody that desire to dismantle the stiff upper 00:27:06.539 --> 00:27:09.619 lip he wrote about in How Not to Be a Boy. It's 00:27:09.619 --> 00:27:12.099 like the comedy success gave him the permission 00:27:12.099 --> 00:27:14.680 or the platform to write seriously about how 00:27:14.680 --> 00:27:17.480 tough it can be to navigate modern manhood. And 00:27:17.480 --> 00:27:19.940 then the health crisis just underlined that message 00:27:19.940 --> 00:27:23.140 with this incredible life or death force. Yeah, 00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:25.160 it's a fascinating example of how celebrity can 00:27:25.160 --> 00:27:28.759 transition to something more like. public intellectual 00:27:28.759 --> 00:27:31.420 contribution, maybe. The comedy gets people listening, 00:27:31.519 --> 00:27:33.519 but it's the honesty, the vulnerability that 00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:35.740 gives his voice weight on these other issues. 00:27:35.980 --> 00:27:38.819 So wrapping this up, what's the final thought 00:27:38.819 --> 00:27:41.440 for you, the listener, to take away from this 00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:43.920 deep dive? We're left with this kind of split 00:27:43.920 --> 00:27:46.849 screen, aren't we? On one side... Jez chaotic, 00:27:47.210 --> 00:27:49.130 commitment averse, kind of stuck in permanent 00:27:49.130 --> 00:27:52.609 adolescence. On the other, the Robert Webb of 00:27:52.609 --> 00:27:56.269 recent years, reflective, sober, advocating for 00:27:56.269 --> 00:27:59.150 self -care and emotional truth. And the final 00:27:59.150 --> 00:28:02.109 question, the provocation perhaps, is about that 00:28:02.109 --> 00:28:04.349 very relationship between the performance and 00:28:04.349 --> 00:28:07.319 the person. How closely linked are those comedic 00:28:07.319 --> 00:28:09.980 portrayals of emotional failure? Jez, the ultimate 00:28:09.980 --> 00:28:12.539 manchild living in denial. How linked are they 00:28:12.539 --> 00:28:14.920 to Webb's own very public journey away from emotional 00:28:14.920 --> 00:28:17.299 repression? Does the best comedy come from the 00:28:17.299 --> 00:28:20.500 deepest pain? Maybe. Or maybe it's about transformation. 00:28:20.740 --> 00:28:23.339 And thinking more broadly, how does sharing personal 00:28:23.339 --> 00:28:25.359 trauma publicly, like the health scare or the 00:28:25.359 --> 00:28:27.839 early loss of his mother, how does that not just 00:28:27.839 --> 00:28:30.119 shape but maybe even strengthen a public figure's 00:28:30.119 --> 00:28:32.440 cultural contribution? Does it shift someone 00:28:32.440 --> 00:28:34.420 from just being an entertainer to being seen 00:28:34.420 --> 00:28:36.180 as having something important to say about how 00:28:36.180 --> 00:28:39.079 we live? Definitely food for thought. Thank you 00:28:39.079 --> 00:28:41.579 for joining us for this deep dive into the, well, 00:28:41.720 --> 00:28:44.400 incredibly compelling life and career of Robert 00:28:44.400 --> 00:28:45.220 Webb. Been a pleasure.