WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.020 Welcome to the Deep Dive. Today we're looking 00:00:02.020 --> 00:00:05.679 at Ezra Edelman. He's a... Documentary director, 00:00:05.919 --> 00:00:09.660 but maybe more accurately, a master curator of 00:00:09.660 --> 00:00:11.720 American complexity. That's a good way to put 00:00:11.720 --> 00:00:14.019 it. Yeah. His real gift seems to be taking these 00:00:14.019 --> 00:00:18.079 huge, messy, kind of overwhelming stories, you 00:00:18.079 --> 00:00:21.460 know, high stakes trials, decades of music history 00:00:21.460 --> 00:00:23.980 and shaping them into something you can actually 00:00:23.980 --> 00:00:26.239 grasp, something essential. And deeply layered. 00:00:26.339 --> 00:00:29.699 That's key. Exactly. Edelman's work really embodies 00:00:29.699 --> 00:00:32.119 what we try to do here. This idea of a deep dive. 00:00:32.259 --> 00:00:34.619 Yeah. He's the person you bring in when. Well, 00:00:34.659 --> 00:00:36.679 the story just doesn't fit a standard movie length. 00:00:36.820 --> 00:00:39.219 Right. When it needs, say, eight hours. Precisely. 00:00:39.219 --> 00:00:41.920 Eight hours to unpack decades of context. His 00:00:41.920 --> 00:00:44.679 skill is taking just massive amounts of source 00:00:44.679 --> 00:00:49.039 material and distilling it, making it digestible, 00:00:49.079 --> 00:00:51.060 but still powerful. And that's really our mission 00:00:51.060 --> 00:00:52.979 for you, the listener, too. Absolutely. He's 00:00:52.979 --> 00:00:55.359 a specialist in scale. So today, yeah, we want 00:00:55.359 --> 00:00:57.359 to unpack his path. We'll look at his foundations, 00:00:57.539 --> 00:00:59.960 you know, the family background in law, civil 00:00:59.960 --> 00:01:02.259 rights, these cultural intersections that really 00:01:02.259 --> 00:01:04.209 set him up for this kind of work. And then, of 00:01:04.209 --> 00:01:06.590 course, we have to talk about O .J. Made in America, 00:01:06.849 --> 00:01:10.670 that defining Oscar -winning achievement. Can't 00:01:10.670 --> 00:01:13.849 miss that one. Definitely not. And finally, we'll 00:01:13.849 --> 00:01:16.090 spend some real time on, well, this fascinating 00:01:16.090 --> 00:01:18.890 and pretty high -stakes saga of the Prince documentary, 00:01:19.750 --> 00:01:21.890 The Book of Prince. The one that never came out. 00:01:21.969 --> 00:01:25.530 The very one. Nine hours, five years of work, 00:01:25.670 --> 00:01:28.590 a huge Netflix investment. And it might just 00:01:28.590 --> 00:01:31.370 stay locked away forever. It really highlights 00:01:31.370 --> 00:01:35.890 this clash between creative control and legacy 00:01:35.890 --> 00:01:38.329 protection. OK, so the big takeaway for you right 00:01:38.329 --> 00:01:40.849 at the top. Edelman isn't just filming things. 00:01:40.930 --> 00:01:42.909 He's acting like a historian, maybe assistance 00:01:42.909 --> 00:01:46.409 analyst. He just refuses to treat these big public 00:01:46.409 --> 00:01:48.609 figures or events like they happen in a vacuum. 00:01:48.670 --> 00:01:51.409 Instead, he uses them like like prisms to see 00:01:51.409 --> 00:01:53.349 these bigger systemic issues. That's exactly 00:01:53.349 --> 00:01:56.349 it. That perspective lists his work way beyond 00:01:56.349 --> 00:01:58.920 simple reporting. It makes it foundational viewing. 00:01:59.159 --> 00:02:01.239 So where do we start to understand that perspective, 00:02:01.579 --> 00:02:05.019 the family? I think we have to. You need to understand 00:02:05.019 --> 00:02:08.560 the world that shaped him. So Ezra Benjamin Edelman, 00:02:08.719 --> 00:02:13.360 born in Boston, August 1974, and he inherits 00:02:13.360 --> 00:02:15.919 this family story that's just deeply, deeply 00:02:15.919 --> 00:02:18.919 woven into American civil rights history, legal 00:02:18.919 --> 00:02:22.819 history. Okay. His mother, Marian Wright Edelman, 00:02:22.939 --> 00:02:25.629 I mean, she's a giant in this field. A former 00:02:25.629 --> 00:02:28.129 civil rights leader. She worked as an aide to 00:02:28.129 --> 00:02:31.270 Martin Luther King Jr. Wow. Yeah. And, of course, 00:02:31.289 --> 00:02:33.810 she founded and led the Children's Defense Fund. 00:02:34.110 --> 00:02:37.210 And the CDF, it's not just a charity. It's a 00:02:37.210 --> 00:02:41.129 major advocacy group focused on long -term systemic 00:02:41.129 --> 00:02:44.710 change for kids using law. Right. It's about 00:02:44.710 --> 00:02:46.669 changing the system, not just helping individuals 00:02:46.669 --> 00:02:48.729 with it. Precisely. And you see that focus later 00:02:48.729 --> 00:02:50.849 in his films, don't you? This concern with legal 00:02:50.849 --> 00:02:53.530 advocacy, structural power, historical marginalization. 00:02:53.650 --> 00:02:55.669 It makes sense. He literally grew up in an environment 00:02:55.669 --> 00:02:58.169 where law and policy were seen as the tools for 00:02:58.169 --> 00:03:00.870 change. And his father, Peter Edelman, mirrors 00:03:00.870 --> 00:03:03.270 that commitment. He was an aide to Senator Robert 00:03:03.270 --> 00:03:05.310 F. Kennedy. During a pretty critical time. A 00:03:05.310 --> 00:03:07.770 very critical time. Later served as assistant 00:03:07.770 --> 00:03:10.330 secretary of health and human services. And he's 00:03:10.330 --> 00:03:12.539 a longtime law professor at Georgetown. So you've 00:03:12.539 --> 00:03:15.680 got this pattern, high -level government, law, 00:03:15.800 --> 00:03:18.020 civil rights engagement. But then there's the 00:03:18.020 --> 00:03:20.919 personal context of his parents' marriage. The 00:03:20.919 --> 00:03:22.900 sources mention this specifically. Yeah, and 00:03:22.900 --> 00:03:25.620 it's really significant. They were the third 00:03:25.620 --> 00:03:28.800 interracial couple to marry in Virginia after 00:03:28.800 --> 00:03:30.699 the Loving v. Virginia Supreme Court decision. 00:03:30.879 --> 00:03:34.460 The third. Wow. Think about that timing. Loving 00:03:34.460 --> 00:03:38.710 v. Virginia. That's 1967. The landmark case striking 00:03:38.710 --> 00:03:41.490 down bans on interracial marriage. It wasn't 00:03:41.490 --> 00:03:43.969 just a legal thing. It was a huge social shift. 00:03:44.210 --> 00:03:46.530 So his own family's existence is tied directly 00:03:46.530 --> 00:03:49.870 to this massive civil rights legal victory. Exactly. 00:03:50.110 --> 00:03:52.289 His life is inherently linked to these themes. 00:03:52.409 --> 00:03:55.330 Legal battles, racial integration, how public 00:03:55.330 --> 00:03:57.789 law impacts private lives. It's baked in from 00:03:57.789 --> 00:03:59.689 the start. And that complexity, that sort of 00:03:59.689 --> 00:04:01.990 dual identity, it goes beyond race, too, right? 00:04:02.110 --> 00:04:05.400 Into his religious upbringing. It does. Another 00:04:05.400 --> 00:04:08.639 liar of navigating different worlds. His father 00:04:08.639 --> 00:04:12.300 is Jewish, and the sources note his paternal 00:04:12.300 --> 00:04:14.759 great -grandfather was a Polish rabbi killed 00:04:14.759 --> 00:04:17.339 in the Holocaust. Oh, wow. While on his mother's 00:04:17.339 --> 00:04:19.579 side, his maternal grandfather was a Baptist 00:04:19.579 --> 00:04:23.220 minister. So Edelman was raised in both traditions. 00:04:23.579 --> 00:04:26.360 So from day one, he's navigating these different 00:04:26.360 --> 00:04:29.100 historical legacies, different faiths, trying 00:04:29.100 --> 00:04:32.040 to find common ground. You have to imagine that 00:04:32.040 --> 00:04:35.040 fosters a certain kind of thinking. a comfort 00:04:35.040 --> 00:04:37.860 with complexity, withholding multiple perspectives 00:04:37.860 --> 00:04:40.180 at once. And then educationally, he gets the 00:04:40.180 --> 00:04:42.759 tools for that kind of analysis. Sidwell Friends 00:04:42.759 --> 00:04:45.800 School in D .C., then Yale for his bachelor's. 00:04:45.800 --> 00:04:47.740 Right. Top tier education providing the intellectual 00:04:47.740 --> 00:04:50.399 framework. So let's synthesize this. You've got 00:04:50.399 --> 00:04:52.959 the dual heritage, the deep immersion in civil 00:04:52.959 --> 00:04:55.319 rights and law through his family, this complex 00:04:55.319 --> 00:04:58.040 background. How does that translate to directing? 00:04:58.339 --> 00:05:00.139 Well, I think it means he doesn't just see O 00:05:00.139 --> 00:05:01.819 .J. Simpson as a famous football player who got 00:05:01.819 --> 00:05:05.420 arrested. He sees Simpson as... Maybe the result 00:05:05.420 --> 00:05:08.199 of all these systemic forces, segregated L .A., 00:05:08.199 --> 00:05:10.540 failures in the justice system, the weird way 00:05:10.540 --> 00:05:14.019 we monetize fame in America. His background gave 00:05:14.019 --> 00:05:15.920 him that critical framework, that ability to 00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:18.519 zoom out. The ability to see the system, not 00:05:18.519 --> 00:05:20.439 just the individual. That's the direct result, 00:05:20.579 --> 00:05:23.860 I think. He was trained in a way by his environment 00:05:23.860 --> 00:05:26.480 to look for those structural narratives, the 00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:29.720 policy angles, not just the personal drama. And 00:05:29.720 --> 00:05:32.199 that understanding is what made the O .J. film 00:05:32.199 --> 00:05:34.879 so much more than just retelling a famous trial. 00:05:35.019 --> 00:05:37.339 OK, let's dive into that then. O .J. Made in 00:05:37.339 --> 00:05:39.160 America. This is what put him on the map for 00:05:39.160 --> 00:05:41.819 a lot of people, right? 2016. Absolutely. He'd 00:05:41.819 --> 00:05:43.699 done strong work before, which we should cover. 00:05:43.899 --> 00:05:46.120 But this was the breakthrough. Commissioned for 00:05:46.120 --> 00:05:48.879 ESPN's 30 for 30. Which is already a prestigious 00:05:48.879 --> 00:05:52.019 series. Very. But this project quickly became 00:05:52.019 --> 00:05:54.500 something else entirely. It blew past the usual 00:05:54.500 --> 00:05:56.750 boundaries of a sports stock. And the key was 00:05:56.750 --> 00:05:58.949 the scale, wasn't it? Getting that eight hour 00:05:58.949 --> 00:06:01.209 runtime. That was the crucial move. He convinced 00:06:01.209 --> 00:06:03.410 them the story needed nearly eight hours. And 00:06:03.410 --> 00:06:05.670 it wasn't just padding. It was essential to his 00:06:05.670 --> 00:06:09.029 argument. Well, think about it. To understand 00:06:09.029 --> 00:06:11.790 why OJ was convicted of domestic abuse by one 00:06:11.790 --> 00:06:14.209 jury and then acquitted of murder by another 00:06:14.209 --> 00:06:17.149 just years later. Yeah. You can't just start 00:06:17.149 --> 00:06:19.949 in 1994 with the Bronco chase. You need the history. 00:06:20.209 --> 00:06:22.670 You need the deep history. Right. The Watts riots. 00:06:23.319 --> 00:06:26.139 Rodney King, the decades of toxicity between 00:06:26.139 --> 00:06:29.279 the LAPD and the black community in L .A. Edelman 00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:32.019 argued you needed all that context first. So 00:06:32.019 --> 00:06:34.259 the structure itself makes the argument. Exactly. 00:06:34.459 --> 00:06:37.279 That eight hour runtime was his brilliance. He 00:06:37.279 --> 00:06:39.879 spends the first two hours basically teaching 00:06:39.879 --> 00:06:42.720 you L .A. history, racial politics, celebrity 00:06:42.720 --> 00:06:45.819 culture, justice system failures before you even 00:06:45.819 --> 00:06:48.240 get close to the night of the murders. So context 00:06:48.240 --> 00:06:51.139 isn't just background. It is the story. That's 00:06:51.139 --> 00:06:53.769 his philosophy in action. The trial is the climax, 00:06:53.870 --> 00:06:56.389 sure, but the history is the engine driving everything. 00:06:56.569 --> 00:06:58.790 And that approach, that scale, it obviously paid 00:06:58.790 --> 00:07:01.470 off, awards -wise. Oh, massively. One of the 00:07:01.470 --> 00:07:04.550 biggest documentary award sweeps in years. It 00:07:04.550 --> 00:07:07.069 validated that need for scope. He won the Academy 00:07:07.069 --> 00:07:09.170 Award for Best Documentary Feature. Which is 00:07:09.170 --> 00:07:11.110 huge, especially for something initially linked 00:07:11.110 --> 00:07:14.129 to a sports network. Incredible. But it wasn't 00:07:14.129 --> 00:07:16.569 just the Oscar. He basically swept the board. 00:07:16.850 --> 00:07:19.370 The Primetime Emmy for directing nonfiction in 00:07:19.370 --> 00:07:23.139 2017. The DGA Award. Critics' Choice Award for 00:07:23.139 --> 00:07:26.360 Best Director in 2016. So the industry recognized 00:07:26.360 --> 00:07:29.100 the achievement in direction and synthesis, not 00:07:29.100 --> 00:07:32.519 just the topic. Right. And importantly, in his 00:07:32.519 --> 00:07:35.220 Oscar speech, he didn't just thank people. He 00:07:35.220 --> 00:07:37.439 used that moment. What did he do? He dedicated 00:07:37.439 --> 00:07:40.399 the award specifically to Nicole Brown Simpson 00:07:40.399 --> 00:07:43.810 and Ron Goldman, the victims. Ah. Bring you back 00:07:43.810 --> 00:07:47.110 to the human cost. Yes. After years of the O 00:07:47.110 --> 00:07:49.689 .J. story being about celebrity, race, the trial 00:07:49.689 --> 00:07:52.990 as spectacle, Edelman in that moment refocused 00:07:52.990 --> 00:07:55.430 it on the tragedy, the lives lost. A powerful 00:07:55.430 --> 00:07:57.490 statement. So the film's impact goes way beyond 00:07:57.490 --> 00:08:00.149 just true crime then. Way beyond. It showed how 00:08:00.149 --> 00:08:02.110 the OJ story was this perfect storm of American 00:08:02.110 --> 00:08:04.670 issues. Celebrity enabling someone to try to 00:08:04.670 --> 00:08:07.649 become colorless. The LAPD's history making accountability 00:08:07.649 --> 00:08:10.509 impossible. The resulting deep skepticism in 00:08:10.509 --> 00:08:12.149 the black community that made that acquittal 00:08:12.149 --> 00:08:14.449 verdict, while shocking to some, feel almost 00:08:14.449 --> 00:08:16.250 inevitable to others. The film basically put 00:08:16.250 --> 00:08:18.230 the whole country on trial in a way. That's a 00:08:18.230 --> 00:08:20.610 good summary. It didn't just explain the events. 00:08:21.069 --> 00:08:23.350 It explained the contest, why it had to unfold 00:08:23.350 --> 00:08:26.410 that way in America at that time. That's why 00:08:26.410 --> 00:08:28.310 it resonated, even with people who thought they 00:08:28.310 --> 00:08:30.750 knew the story inside out and why it needs those 00:08:30.750 --> 00:08:33.809 eight hours. He was documenting decades of social 00:08:33.809 --> 00:08:37.059 history through one figure. OK, so. OJ is the 00:08:37.059 --> 00:08:38.860 peak, but you mentioned he had a strong track 00:08:38.860 --> 00:08:41.799 record before that. He built up to this. Definitely. 00:08:41.879 --> 00:08:44.980 It wasn't out of nowhere. He honed this skill, 00:08:45.139 --> 00:08:48.559 telling big, complex stories, often using sports 00:08:48.559 --> 00:08:51.179 to talk about bigger things like law, justice, 00:08:51.500 --> 00:08:55.179 society, mostly at HBO Sports. Right. So what 00:08:55.179 --> 00:08:57.740 were some of those earlier key projects? Well, 00:08:57.759 --> 00:09:00.340 there was Magic and Bird, A Courtship of Rivals, 00:09:00.519 --> 00:09:03.639 great film. Explore that defining NBA rivalry 00:09:03.639 --> 00:09:06.059 in the 80s. Huge rivalry. Changed the league. 00:09:06.200 --> 00:09:08.399 Totally. But Edelman wasn't just interested in 00:09:08.399 --> 00:09:10.799 the dunks and passes. He looked at how that rivalry 00:09:10.799 --> 00:09:13.240 played out nationally. Often along racial lines, 00:09:13.320 --> 00:09:15.220 geographic lines, how it mirrored a changing 00:09:15.220 --> 00:09:17.460 America. Interesting. Using sports as a lens 00:09:17.460 --> 00:09:20.779 again. Always. Then, maybe even more pointedly, 00:09:20.779 --> 00:09:24.019 in 2011, he did The Curious Case of Kurt Flood. 00:09:24.039 --> 00:09:26.519 Kurt Flood, the baseball player. Right. And this 00:09:26.519 --> 00:09:28.600 is where you really see his background in law 00:09:28.600 --> 00:09:32.220 and justice come through. Flood challenged baseball's 00:09:32.220 --> 00:09:34.580 reserve clause. Okay, reserve clause. Remind 00:09:34.580 --> 00:09:36.500 us what that was exactly. It sounds technical. 00:09:36.799 --> 00:09:40.049 It was. But it was huge for labor rights. Basically, 00:09:40.149 --> 00:09:43.090 it bound a player to one team forever, even after 00:09:43.090 --> 00:09:45.250 their contract ended. The team owned the players' 00:09:45.370 --> 00:09:46.830 rights, could trade them, sell them, whatever. 00:09:47.210 --> 00:09:49.769 Sludd argued it was like modern -day slavery, 00:09:49.990 --> 00:09:53.169 a total restriction on freedom. So Edelman's 00:09:53.169 --> 00:09:55.669 film wasn't just a sports bio. Not at all. It 00:09:55.669 --> 00:09:58.009 was about labor law, civil rights, corporate 00:09:58.009 --> 00:10:00.269 power, all colliding in the world of baseball, 00:10:00.450 --> 00:10:03.750 using a sports figure to spotlight a systemic 00:10:03.750 --> 00:10:06.549 legal injustice. You see the direct line to O 00:10:06.549 --> 00:10:08.659 .J. there, right? Right. Another story that became 00:10:08.659 --> 00:10:10.679 about the justice system itself. Yeah, absolutely. 00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:13.600 What else? He also did Brooklyn Dodgers, Ghosts 00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:15.200 of Flatbush. Yeah. Want to name me for that one. 00:10:15.299 --> 00:10:17.340 That's less about policy, more about cultural 00:10:17.340 --> 00:10:20.039 memory, identity, what happens when a team leaves 00:10:20.039 --> 00:10:23.639 a city. The loss felt by Brooklyn shows he understands 00:10:23.639 --> 00:10:26.600 the emotional weight of institutions too. Capturing 00:10:26.600 --> 00:10:29.580 that sense of place and history. Right. And he 00:10:29.580 --> 00:10:32.389 stayed a 30 for 32. wrote and directed Requiem 00:10:32.389 --> 00:10:34.789 for the Big East about that college basketball 00:10:34.789 --> 00:10:36.990 conference. Another institutional story. Yeah. 00:10:37.289 --> 00:10:40.149 What's consistent is his range biography, labor 00:10:40.149 --> 00:10:43.330 law, institutional history, but always digging 00:10:43.330 --> 00:10:45.730 into the underlying structures, the forces shaping 00:10:45.730 --> 00:10:47.850 things. And that focus on structure, that led 00:10:47.850 --> 00:10:50.370 him into producing series too, not just directing 00:10:50.370 --> 00:10:53.330 features. Exactly. He produced Wyatt Cenac's 00:10:53.330 --> 00:10:56.460 Problem Areas for HBO. Two seasons. That showed 00:10:56.460 --> 00:10:59.299 him moving into more current, kind of satirical 00:10:59.299 --> 00:11:02.360 social commentary, but in that longer, serialized 00:11:02.360 --> 00:11:05.000 format. Comfortable with big, multi -part stories. 00:11:05.220 --> 00:11:07.139 And more recently, is he still working across 00:11:07.139 --> 00:11:09.940 different areas? Definitely. The range continues. 00:11:10.200 --> 00:11:14.210 In 2024, he produced Stax. Soulsville, USA for 00:11:14.210 --> 00:11:17.230 HBO. A deep dive into Stax Records. The legendary 00:11:17.230 --> 00:11:19.850 soul label. Legendary. And again, notice the 00:11:19.850 --> 00:11:22.730 theme. Stax was huge musically, but its story 00:11:22.730 --> 00:11:24.830 involves integration, race in the music business, 00:11:24.889 --> 00:11:27.450 financial collapse, legal issues. It's system 00:11:27.450 --> 00:11:29.850 building and system failure through art. Makes 00:11:29.850 --> 00:11:33.269 sense. Also in 2024, produced Vow of Silence. 00:11:33.710 --> 00:11:36.389 The assassination of Annie Mae for Onyx Collective 00:11:36.389 --> 00:11:39.179 and Hulu. About the indigenous activist, Anna 00:11:39.179 --> 00:11:42.220 Maya Quash. Another tough subject. Very. Confirms 00:11:42.220 --> 00:11:43.940 his commitment to using his platform for these 00:11:43.940 --> 00:11:46.799 complex, often overlooked stories involving systemic 00:11:46.799 --> 00:11:49.220 violence and justice for marginalized groups. 00:11:49.440 --> 00:11:52.179 And there is talk of a Roberto Clemente biopic, 00:11:52.220 --> 00:11:55.080 too. Yeah, that was reported back in 2018 in 00:11:55.080 --> 00:11:56.919 development with writer Rowan Ricardo Phillips. 00:11:57.679 --> 00:12:01.580 Clemente's life baseball, Latino identity, humanitarian 00:12:01.580 --> 00:12:05.690 work. Tragedy feels like another perfect multi 00:12:05.690 --> 00:12:08.669 -layered Edelman subject. So clearly he juggles 00:12:08.669 --> 00:12:10.970 these huge ambitious projects that take years. 00:12:11.169 --> 00:12:14.330 Which brings us to the big one that got away. 00:12:14.509 --> 00:12:16.330 The Mount Everest he climbed only to find the 00:12:16.330 --> 00:12:18.929 summit blocked. The Book of Prince. Nine hours. 00:12:19.149 --> 00:12:22.370 Nine hours. Six parts. He spent five years developing 00:12:22.370 --> 00:12:24.470 this documentary series on Prince. How did that 00:12:24.470 --> 00:12:26.830 even start? Prince was notoriously private. It 00:12:26.830 --> 00:12:29.409 started big. He was recruited back in 2019 by 00:12:29.409 --> 00:12:32.009 Lisa Nishimura at Netflix. She was a major force 00:12:32.009 --> 00:12:34.789 there, VP of indie film and docs. And the project 00:12:34.789 --> 00:12:37.830 ended on this incredible promise. Access. Access 00:12:37.830 --> 00:12:41.210 to what? Access to the vault. Prince's legendary, 00:12:41.509 --> 00:12:44.490 almost mythical archive of unreleased music, 00:12:44.789 --> 00:12:48.929 footage, writings, everything. Whoa. That's like 00:12:48.929 --> 00:12:51.169 the Holy Grail for music documentarians. It really 00:12:51.169 --> 00:12:53.529 is. And Netflix paid accordingly, reportedly, 00:12:53.769 --> 00:12:56.070 tens of millions of dollars for that access. 00:12:56.269 --> 00:12:58.570 Tens of millions just for the access. Just for 00:12:58.570 --> 00:13:01.509 the access. And critically, the sources are clear. 00:13:01.649 --> 00:13:04.740 Yeah. The deal they struck. with the bank managing 00:13:04.740 --> 00:13:06.960 the estate at that time specifically guaranteed 00:13:06.960 --> 00:13:09.720 Edelman and Netflix editorial control. Okay, 00:13:09.740 --> 00:13:12.019 that's huge. They paid for the right to tell 00:13:12.019 --> 00:13:13.779 the story their way. They paid for the right 00:13:13.779 --> 00:13:17.059 to apply that same critical, nuanced, systemic 00:13:17.059 --> 00:13:20.100 analysis Edelman used on O .J. to Prince's incredibly 00:13:20.100 --> 00:13:22.840 complex life and career. The brilliance, the 00:13:22.840 --> 00:13:24.559 contradictions, all of it. You thought they'd 00:13:24.559 --> 00:13:26.980 protected that right. But this is where Edelman's 00:13:26.980 --> 00:13:29.320 mastery of narrative runs smack into the realities 00:13:29.320 --> 00:13:33.129 of Hollywood power shifts and... Intense legacy 00:13:33.129 --> 00:13:34.830 protection. Things started to go wrong. What 00:13:34.830 --> 00:13:37.169 happened? First, an internal blow at Netflix. 00:13:37.450 --> 00:13:39.389 Lisa Nishimura, the executive who championed 00:13:39.389 --> 00:13:42.250 the project, got laid off. Ah, the project loses 00:13:42.250 --> 00:13:45.009 its internal protector. Exactly. That happens 00:13:45.009 --> 00:13:47.929 all the time. A new regime comes in, sees this 00:13:47.929 --> 00:13:51.269 super expensive, maybe sensitive project inherited 00:13:51.269 --> 00:13:53.889 from the old guard. Suddenly it looks like a 00:13:53.889 --> 00:13:56.549 liability, not an asset. Especially with a subject 00:13:56.549 --> 00:13:59.720 as complex as Prince. Right. But the bigger problem, 00:13:59.860 --> 00:14:02.980 the fatal blow, came from the estate side. The 00:14:02.980 --> 00:14:05.620 management of the Prince estate changed. And 00:14:05.620 --> 00:14:08.659 a key figure emerged, L. Lundell McMillan. A 00:14:08.659 --> 00:14:11.299 former lawyer for Prince. Correct. And he became 00:14:11.299 --> 00:14:14.000 very influential in the new estate setup. And 00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:16.320 according to reports, McMillan led the charge 00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:18.620 against the documentary, objecting strongly, 00:14:18.799 --> 00:14:21.019 trying to block its release. Why? Was it the 00:14:21.019 --> 00:14:23.659 quality? Doesn't seem like it was about craftsmanship. 00:14:23.799 --> 00:14:26.490 The reporting suggests it was the content. Edelman, 00:14:26.549 --> 00:14:29.190 being Edelman, likely presented a full, nuanced 00:14:29.190 --> 00:14:31.029 picture, the good, the bad, the complicated. 00:14:31.289 --> 00:14:34.029 The same way he did with OJ. Precisely. And that 00:14:34.029 --> 00:14:36.090 clashed with what the estate seemingly wanted. 00:14:36.730 --> 00:14:40.389 A more celebratory, maybe sanitized legacy piece. 00:14:40.549 --> 00:14:42.769 Something commercially safe. So it's a classic 00:14:42.769 --> 00:14:45.529 battle. Historical truth versus brand management. 00:14:45.970 --> 00:14:48.570 Perfectly put. You've got millions spent, five 00:14:48.570 --> 00:14:51.070 years of work, guaranteed editorial control. 00:14:52.049 --> 00:14:54.809 all hitting a wall built by the estate's desire 00:14:54.809 --> 00:14:57.409 to control Prince's image posthumously. Where 00:14:57.409 --> 00:14:59.970 did that leave the project? By September 2024, 00:15:00.429 --> 00:15:02.529 things looked grim. The New York Times Magazine 00:15:02.529 --> 00:15:05.389 flat out reported there was no indication that 00:15:05.389 --> 00:15:07.450 the film will ever come out. Just think about 00:15:07.450 --> 00:15:10.190 that nine hours of synthesized knowledge. Unseen 00:15:10.190 --> 00:15:13.889 archival stuff just locked away. And then came 00:15:13.889 --> 00:15:16.610 the final nail in the coffin. Pretty much. February 00:15:16.610 --> 00:15:19.610 2025, the estate makes it official. Edelman's 00:15:19.610 --> 00:15:22.529 documentary will never be released. And, adding 00:15:22.529 --> 00:15:24.570 insult to injury, they announced a new print 00:15:24.570 --> 00:15:27.289 stock would be made, without Edelman. Presumably 00:15:27.289 --> 00:15:29.230 one they have more control over. So Edelman's 00:15:29.230 --> 00:15:33.029 five years, Netflix's millions. Just gone. Gone. 00:15:33.269 --> 00:15:35.850 Nullified. It seems the threat of a lawsuit from 00:15:35.850 --> 00:15:37.789 the estate challenging the content was enough 00:15:37.789 --> 00:15:39.929 to kill it, regardless of any contract about 00:15:39.929 --> 00:15:41.950 editorial control. So what does Edelman himself 00:15:41.950 --> 00:15:45.169 say about all this? His take is, well, brutally 00:15:45.169 --> 00:15:47.980 honest and kind of sad. In an interview around 00:15:47.980 --> 00:15:51.460 March 2025, when asked why this epic nine -hour 00:15:51.460 --> 00:15:53.820 film isn't being released, he reportedly just 00:15:53.820 --> 00:15:56.240 said he doesn't feel like getting sued. Wow. 00:15:56.820 --> 00:15:59.059 That says it all, doesn't it? It really does. 00:15:59.139 --> 00:16:01.519 It's chilling. Even with Netflix money and a 00:16:01.519 --> 00:16:04.279 contract guaranteeing control, the threat of 00:16:04.279 --> 00:16:06.840 a long, expensive legal fight from a powerful 00:16:06.840 --> 00:16:09.200 estate was enough to effectively shelve the whole 00:16:09.200 --> 00:16:11.799 thing. The legal threat trumped the creative 00:16:11.799 --> 00:16:15.379 freedom, and we, the public, lose out. Okay, 00:16:15.419 --> 00:16:18.000 so we've traced his path, the foundation, the 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:20.460 OJ triumph, the diverse filmography, and now 00:16:20.460 --> 00:16:23.919 this, this major roadblock with Prince. What's 00:16:23.919 --> 00:16:25.919 the synthesis here? What does it all mean? Well, 00:16:26.039 --> 00:16:28.019 if you connect the dots, you see him tackling 00:16:28.019 --> 00:16:30.100 these huge narratives differently. With O .J., 00:16:30.100 --> 00:16:32.940 it was a public story, historical events. Charged, 00:16:32.940 --> 00:16:35.759 yes, but ultimately open to his critical interpretation. 00:16:36.120 --> 00:16:37.759 Yeah. He had the freedom to make his argument. 00:16:37.840 --> 00:16:39.720 Right. With Prince, it was intensely private, 00:16:39.940 --> 00:16:41.980 deeply personal, commercially sensitive for the 00:16:41.980 --> 00:16:44.279 estate. The stakes felt different, more controlled 00:16:44.279 --> 00:16:46.480 by the legacy holders. So his method requires 00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:50.240 deep access and critical thinking. Always. But 00:16:50.240 --> 00:16:52.639 the Prince story shows that access, even when 00:16:52.639 --> 00:16:55.220 you pay millions and get it in writing, isn't 00:16:55.220 --> 00:16:58.059 truly guaranteed if the resulting story doesn't 00:16:58.059 --> 00:16:59.820 align with the estate's preferred narrative. 00:17:00.039 --> 00:17:02.200 And that's relevant for us, for you, the listener, 00:17:02.279 --> 00:17:04.339 Hal. Well, Edelman's whole process shows the 00:17:04.339 --> 00:17:06.700 value of going deep. Yeah. The eight hours on 00:17:06.700 --> 00:17:10.720 OJ, the five years trying with Prince. That level 00:17:10.720 --> 00:17:13.339 of contextual exploration is what gives you real 00:17:13.339 --> 00:17:16.099 understanding beyond headlines. But the Prince 00:17:16.099 --> 00:17:19.059 outcome. is a warning sign. It's a huge warning 00:17:19.059 --> 00:17:21.859 sign. It shows that even when you do everything 00:17:21.859 --> 00:17:25.299 right, get the access, secure the funding, have 00:17:25.299 --> 00:17:28.200 the creative vision, powerful legal forces driven 00:17:28.200 --> 00:17:31.400 by legacy concerns can still shut it down. The 00:17:31.400 --> 00:17:33.039 knowledge gets locked away. The whole effort 00:17:33.039 --> 00:17:35.160 gets torpedoed. Completely. Yeah. It makes you 00:17:35.160 --> 00:17:37.220 realize these deep dives aren't just costly in 00:17:37.220 --> 00:17:39.799 time and money. They carry enormous legal risks 00:17:39.799 --> 00:17:42.180 now. Risks that can lead to permanent loss of 00:17:42.180 --> 00:17:44.359 cultural knowledge. Which brings us right to 00:17:44.359 --> 00:17:47.160 our final thought for you to chew on. We know 00:17:47.160 --> 00:17:49.559 the stories Edelman did tell, Kurt Flood's fight, 00:17:49.799 --> 00:17:52.680 the Big East's history, the whole complex tapestry 00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:55.900 of O .J. Simpson. But that print stock, five 00:17:55.900 --> 00:17:58.799 years, the vault access, nine hours of insight 00:17:58.799 --> 00:18:01.960 we might just never get. So the question it leaves 00:18:01.960 --> 00:18:05.250 hanging is. How much vital cultural knowledge, 00:18:05.349 --> 00:18:07.509 how much deep understanding are we losing when 00:18:07.509 --> 00:18:09.869 creative freedom gets tangled up in legal battles 00:18:09.869 --> 00:18:12.589 or estate disputes? Even when the doors were 00:18:12.589 --> 00:18:15.670 supposedly open, the contracts signed. It's a 00:18:15.670 --> 00:18:17.690 frustrating question. It really is. The loss 00:18:17.690 --> 00:18:19.930 isn't just about money for Netflix or a setback 00:18:19.930 --> 00:18:22.390 for Edelman. It feels like a permanent gap in 00:18:22.390 --> 00:18:24.490 understanding one of the most fascinating, most 00:18:24.490 --> 00:18:27.329 enigmatic artists of our time. It really sticks 00:18:27.329 --> 00:18:29.150 with you, doesn't it? The cost of trying to tell 00:18:29.150 --> 00:18:31.130 the deepest truth. It absolutely does. Shelving 00:18:31.130 --> 00:18:33.890 that project. Despite everything. Yeah. It really 00:18:33.890 --> 00:18:35.750 shows the tension between historical inquiry 00:18:35.750 --> 00:18:39.410 and, well, legacy management. That's the frontier 00:18:39.410 --> 00:18:42.829 right now. Sobering thought to end on. That's 00:18:42.829 --> 00:18:45.109 it for this deep dive. We hope you feel informed, 00:18:45.309 --> 00:18:47.849 maybe a little bit frustrated by the mystery 00:18:47.849 --> 00:18:49.309 still locked in the vault. We'll see you next 00:18:49.309 --> 00:18:49.529 time.