WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.560 Welcome to The Deep Dive. Today, well, we're 00:00:03.560 --> 00:00:06.040 tackling a career that's just full of contradictions, 00:00:06.040 --> 00:00:08.439 maybe one of the most complicated in modern comedy. 00:00:09.099 --> 00:00:11.820 We're looking at Louis C .K., Louis Alfred Seigle. 00:00:12.140 --> 00:00:15.320 And our mission really is to take all these sources, 00:00:15.500 --> 00:00:17.980 we've got bios, reports, analysis, and just try 00:00:17.980 --> 00:00:19.780 to unpack his journey. Yeah, it's a big one. 00:00:20.239 --> 00:00:23.859 How did he go from this kind of surprising background 00:00:23.859 --> 00:00:27.879 as a writer to becoming this major industry disruptor? 00:00:28.589 --> 00:00:31.269 We need to chart the highs, the creative peaks. 00:00:31.469 --> 00:00:34.170 And the crash, definitely. Yeah. A huge professional 00:00:34.170 --> 00:00:36.310 fallout. And then the comeback, which is a whole 00:00:36.310 --> 00:00:38.890 story in itself. Right. And before we even get 00:00:38.890 --> 00:00:40.549 into the timeline, I think it's crucial we just 00:00:40.549 --> 00:00:43.869 lay out the sheer scale of his success before 00:00:43.869 --> 00:00:46.649 everything changed around 2017. You have to understand 00:00:46.649 --> 00:00:48.570 the foundation. Okay. I mean, just looking at 00:00:48.570 --> 00:00:51.229 the facts, the sources pile it up. Six Emmy Awards, 00:00:51.469 --> 00:00:54.750 three Grammys, three Peabody Awards. That's... 00:00:55.020 --> 00:00:56.780 That's serious recognition. Yeah, those aren't 00:00:56.780 --> 00:00:58.679 lightweight awards. Not at all. And then you've 00:00:58.679 --> 00:01:01.140 got Time Magazine in 2012 listing him as one 00:01:01.140 --> 00:01:02.920 of the 100 most influential people. And Rolling 00:01:02.920 --> 00:01:06.859 Stone, just in 2017, right before the fall, ranked 00:01:06.859 --> 00:01:09.700 him number four, fourth, on their list of the 00:01:09.700 --> 00:01:12.420 50 best stand -up comics of all time. Wow. Number 00:01:12.420 --> 00:01:14.840 four. That's incredibly high praise. It really 00:01:14.840 --> 00:01:16.959 speaks to how respected he was across the board, 00:01:17.099 --> 00:01:19.239 writing, performing, directing. Exactly. Deep 00:01:19.239 --> 00:01:22.019 industry respect. Yeah. The question we're digging 00:01:22.019 --> 00:01:24.760 into isn't just what he achieved, but really 00:01:24.760 --> 00:01:27.980 how. How did he build this career that gave him 00:01:27.980 --> 00:01:31.120 so much power, so much independence, enough to 00:01:31.120 --> 00:01:33.620 become this pioneer in content distribution? 00:01:33.939 --> 00:01:36.359 Totally redefining. And then how did that same 00:01:36.359 --> 00:01:38.400 independence become the very thing that allowed 00:01:38.400 --> 00:01:40.719 him to keep working after the mainstream industry 00:01:40.719 --> 00:01:42.879 just completely cut him off? It's fascinating, 00:01:43.000 --> 00:01:44.620 isn't it? It's like a case study in building 00:01:44.620 --> 00:01:47.010 your own platform, often out of... you know, 00:01:47.010 --> 00:01:49.090 frustration with the old ways. So we're tracking 00:01:49.090 --> 00:01:52.129 the rise, the dramatic fall, and this really, 00:01:52.150 --> 00:01:54.670 really unusual rebuilding of a whole creative 00:01:54.670 --> 00:01:57.989 world. Okay, so let's dive into the beginnings. 00:01:58.109 --> 00:02:00.930 We all have this image, right? The sort of grumpy, 00:02:01.030 --> 00:02:05.299 divorced, white Boston comic. The persona. But 00:02:05.299 --> 00:02:07.799 his actual background, it's way more layered, 00:02:07.879 --> 00:02:09.960 way more international than you'd think. He was 00:02:09.960 --> 00:02:12.840 born in Washington, D .C., 1967. Yeah, the heritage 00:02:12.840 --> 00:02:14.539 itself is really interesting. It kind of goes 00:02:14.539 --> 00:02:17.340 against that simple image. His father, Louis 00:02:17.340 --> 00:02:20.270 Sickley. was an economist. Okay. And his background 00:02:20.270 --> 00:02:23.150 was Mexican and Hungarian Jewish. His own father, 00:02:23.310 --> 00:02:26.509 C .K.'s grandfather, Giza Sekli -Schweiger, was 00:02:26.509 --> 00:02:28.849 actually a Hungarian Jew who moved to Mexico. 00:02:29.289 --> 00:02:31.810 Wow. Okay. So Mexico is a big part of the story 00:02:31.810 --> 00:02:34.469 early on. A huge part. That grandfather married 00:02:34.469 --> 00:02:37.689 a Mexican woman, Rosario Sanchez Morales, and 00:02:37.689 --> 00:02:39.629 they raised their kids, including C .K.'s father. 00:02:40.009 --> 00:02:42.590 as Catholics in Mexico. And his mother. His mother, 00:02:42.689 --> 00:02:44.909 Mary Louise Davis. She was American, Catholic, 00:02:44.949 --> 00:02:47.310 and of Irish descent. So you've got this real 00:02:47.310 --> 00:02:50.870 mix. Hungarian, Jewish, Mexican, Irish, Catholic, 00:02:51.030 --> 00:02:54.830 all feeding into one person. Right. But the detail 00:02:54.830 --> 00:02:56.810 that really stands out, the one that maybe hints 00:02:56.810 --> 00:03:00.610 at that feeling of being an outsider later, it's 00:03:00.610 --> 00:03:02.629 the language. He didn't start with English? Nope. 00:03:02.689 --> 00:03:05.389 His first language was Spanish. The family moved 00:03:05.389 --> 00:03:07.289 to Mexico City right after he was born, stayed 00:03:07.289 --> 00:03:09.960 there until he was about seven. So he spent his 00:03:09.960 --> 00:03:14.000 really formative early years entirely in a Spanish 00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:16.500 -speaking culture. Exactly. He only started learning 00:03:16.500 --> 00:03:19.120 English when they moved back to the U .S., settling 00:03:19.120 --> 00:03:22.300 outside Boston, first Framingham, then Newton, 00:03:22.419 --> 00:03:24.860 Massachusetts. That's a major shift for a kid, 00:03:25.000 --> 00:03:28.479 culturally, linguistically. Huge. And then his 00:03:28.479 --> 00:03:30.900 parents divorced when he was 10. He was raised 00:03:30.900 --> 00:03:33.759 Catholic, mostly by his mom, in that very suburban 00:03:33.759 --> 00:03:36.550 New England setting. It's quite a journey just 00:03:36.550 --> 00:03:38.550 to get to adolescence. You can see how that might 00:03:38.550 --> 00:03:40.750 shape a certain perspective. He always felt a 00:03:40.750 --> 00:03:42.849 bit like an outsider looking in. Definitely seems 00:03:42.849 --> 00:03:45.530 plausible. Yeah. Now, his influences, he points 00:03:45.530 --> 00:03:47.270 to the greats, you know, George Carlin, Bill 00:03:47.270 --> 00:03:49.810 Cosby, Richard Pryor, standard for comics of 00:03:49.810 --> 00:03:51.949 his generation. Sure. But his initial reason 00:03:51.949 --> 00:03:55.270 for wanting to get into TV wasn't like this burning 00:03:55.270 --> 00:03:58.229 artistic desire. It was much more grounded. What 00:03:58.229 --> 00:04:00.069 was it? He said it came from watching his mom. 00:04:00.449 --> 00:04:02.830 She'd come home tired from work and just watch 00:04:02.830 --> 00:04:07.039 these, quote, Bad TV shows. Oh, okay. And he 00:04:07.039 --> 00:04:08.699 thought, I want to make something better than 00:04:08.699 --> 00:04:11.159 that for people like her to watch. Almost a practical 00:04:11.159 --> 00:04:14.379 goal. Interesting. And his early steps into the 00:04:14.379 --> 00:04:16.319 industry weren't just about comedy performance. 00:04:16.560 --> 00:04:20.220 They were very hands -on, very technical. That 00:04:20.220 --> 00:04:22.019 seems really important. It's absolutely pivotal 00:04:22.019 --> 00:04:24.360 for what comes later. After high school, fun 00:04:24.360 --> 00:04:27.800 fact, Matt LeBlanc was a classmate. Joey Tribbiani, 00:04:27.800 --> 00:04:31.199 no way. Yep. So after high school, C .K. worked 00:04:31.199 --> 00:04:34.509 as an auto mechanic. But crucially, he also worked 00:04:34.509 --> 00:04:37.649 at a public access TV station in Boston. Ah, 00:04:37.850 --> 00:04:40.829 public access. The great equalizer. Exactly. 00:04:41.170 --> 00:04:43.149 And that's where he learned the nuts and bolts. 00:04:43.649 --> 00:04:46.649 Cameras, editing, making stuff on basically no 00:04:46.649 --> 00:04:49.670 budget. He got the technical chops that he later 00:04:49.670 --> 00:04:51.790 used to direct and edit pretty much everything 00:04:51.790 --> 00:04:54.870 himself. Short films, his TV shows. All of it. 00:04:55.079 --> 00:04:56.939 He even said something like, learning is my favorite 00:04:56.939 --> 00:04:59.040 thing. Yeah. That technical grounding was absolutely 00:04:59.040 --> 00:05:01.259 key. But getting on stage doing stand -up, that 00:05:01.259 --> 00:05:03.279 wasn't smooth sailing at first. Oh, not at all. 00:05:03.379 --> 00:05:06.980 Yeah. His first try was in 1985. He was 17, open 00:05:06.980 --> 00:05:09.600 mic in Boston. Total disaster. He apparently 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:11.579 ran out of material halfway through his five 00:05:11.579 --> 00:05:15.000 -minute set. Just froze. Yeah. It discouraged 00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:17.079 him so much he didn't perform again for two whole 00:05:17.079 --> 00:05:19.300 years. He found his feet much more quickly as 00:05:19.300 --> 00:05:21.000 a writer. Right. So he moves to Manhattan in 00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:23.660 1989, and that's when things start. clicking 00:05:23.660 --> 00:05:25.540 on the writing side. Yeah, he starts getting 00:05:25.540 --> 00:05:27.899 into the writers' rooms. He lands a job on Late 00:05:27.899 --> 00:05:31.620 Night with Conan O 'Brien, 93 to 94, then a brief 00:05:31.620 --> 00:05:34.319 stint at Letterman's Late Show in 95. Those are 00:05:34.319 --> 00:05:38.040 big launching pads. Huge. And the Conan job. 00:05:39.439 --> 00:05:41.399 The sources say it was more than just a break, 00:05:41.439 --> 00:05:43.660 it was a lifeline. How so? He was apparently 00:05:43.660 --> 00:05:45.660 so broke and discouraged right before he got 00:05:45.660 --> 00:05:48.240 the call, he was literally planning to quit comedy 00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:51.000 altogether, move back home. The very next day, 00:05:51.100 --> 00:05:54.589 Conan's show hired him. Wow. Talk about timing. 00:05:54.670 --> 00:05:56.889 That one phone call changed everything. Completely 00:05:56.889 --> 00:05:59.410 altered his path. Kept him in the game. Then 00:05:59.410 --> 00:06:01.750 he was up to head writer on The Dana Carvey Show 00:06:01.750 --> 00:06:04.410 in 96. That show's legendary now, but not for 00:06:04.410 --> 00:06:06.629 its ratings. Huh. Definitely not. It got canceled 00:06:06.629 --> 00:06:09.490 super fast, like seven episodes. But the writing 00:06:09.490 --> 00:06:12.430 staff. Unbelievable. Who else was in there? You 00:06:12.430 --> 00:06:15.750 had Steve Carell, Stephen Colbert, Robert Smigel, 00:06:15.810 --> 00:06:18.509 Charlie Kaufman. I mean, just a murderer's row 00:06:18.509 --> 00:06:21.500 of comedy talent. An incredible incubator, even 00:06:21.500 --> 00:06:23.800 if it failed commercially. It shows he was operating 00:06:23.800 --> 00:06:26.160 at a really high level in sketch comedy. Absolutely. 00:06:26.379 --> 00:06:29.379 And then came the Chris Rock show from 97 to 00:06:29.379 --> 00:06:32.259 99. That's where he really cemented his reputation 00:06:32.259 --> 00:06:34.399 as a top writer. And got some hardware for it 00:06:34.399 --> 00:06:36.420 too, right? That's right. His first Emmy win 00:06:36.420 --> 00:06:39.360 came from that show. Best writing in a variety 00:06:39.360 --> 00:06:42.839 or comedy series. 1999. So by the end of the 00:06:42.839 --> 00:06:45.220 90s, he's established he's an Emmy winning writer. 00:06:45.709 --> 00:06:47.889 But still mostly behind the scenes. Exactly. 00:06:48.110 --> 00:06:50.670 The next logical step, especially for someone 00:06:50.670 --> 00:06:53.810 with his background and ambition, was to take 00:06:53.810 --> 00:06:57.310 charge. To direct, to star, to control the whole 00:06:57.310 --> 00:06:59.589 thing. Right. That desire for control. Maybe 00:06:59.589 --> 00:07:01.689 it goes back to those public access days, knowing 00:07:01.689 --> 00:07:03.889 how to do it all yourself. It pushed him straight 00:07:03.889 --> 00:07:07.329 into filmmaking. He wrote and directed an indie 00:07:07.329 --> 00:07:09.610 film, Black and White, called Tomorrow Night, 00:07:09.769 --> 00:07:12.430 premiered at Sundance in 98. Did it go anywhere? 00:07:12.750 --> 00:07:15.470 Commercially. No, not really. But it's interesting. 00:07:15.610 --> 00:07:18.629 Years later, in 2014, he actually self -released 00:07:18.629 --> 00:07:21.430 it through his website, showing that early instinct 00:07:21.430 --> 00:07:23.649 to control his own work, his own distribution. 00:07:23.990 --> 00:07:26.709 And that instinct clashed hard with the studio 00:07:26.709 --> 00:07:28.709 system pretty quickly, didn't it? With Pootie 00:07:28.709 --> 00:07:32.889 Tang. Oh, spectacularly. Pootie Tang, 2001. Adapted 00:07:32.889 --> 00:07:36.310 from a sketch on Chris Rock's show. He wrote 00:07:36.310 --> 00:07:38.910 it, directed it. This was supposed to be his 00:07:38.910 --> 00:07:41.230 big studio shot. But it famously went sideways. 00:07:41.589 --> 00:07:44.060 Completely. The studio fired him near the end 00:07:44.060 --> 00:07:46.439 of filming. They took the footage, re -edited 00:07:46.439 --> 00:07:49.879 it heavily. He barely recognized the final product. 00:07:50.100 --> 00:07:53.379 And the reviews were brutal. Vicious. Roger Ebert 00:07:53.379 --> 00:07:54.860 called it a train wreck, said it wasn't even 00:07:54.860 --> 00:07:58.500 releasable. Just absolutely savaged. Wow. Even 00:07:58.500 --> 00:08:00.279 though it's kind of a cult thing now. It is now, 00:08:00.399 --> 00:08:03.759 yeah. But back then, for him, that experience 00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:06.439 of having his vision completely taken away and 00:08:06.439 --> 00:08:08.990 butchered. You can imagine how formative that 00:08:08.990 --> 00:08:10.810 was. Yeah, you can totally see why he'd spend 00:08:10.810 --> 00:08:13.170 the next decade trying to avoid that system entirely. 00:08:13.509 --> 00:08:15.269 Precisely. And that's where things get really 00:08:15.269 --> 00:08:17.649 groundbreaking. He didn't just, you know, sulk 00:08:17.649 --> 00:08:20.589 or go back to only doing stand -up. He channeled 00:08:20.589 --> 00:08:23.709 that frustration into basically inventing a new 00:08:23.709 --> 00:08:25.589 business model. The direct -to -fan approach. 00:08:26.069 --> 00:08:28.910 Exactly. This is probably his biggest, least 00:08:28.910 --> 00:08:32.190 controversial legacy in the industry. He started 00:08:32.190 --> 00:08:34.970 early, like we said, releasing his first album. 00:08:35.309 --> 00:08:38.730 live in Houston, on his site in 2001. Okay, so 00:08:38.730 --> 00:08:41.230 the seed was planted early. But it really bloomed, 00:08:41.230 --> 00:08:43.629 really became a strategy about 10 years later, 00:08:43.750 --> 00:08:46.250 2011, the special live at the Beacon Theater. 00:08:46.389 --> 00:08:49.250 Okay, break that down. Why was that release such 00:08:49.250 --> 00:08:51.230 a big deal? It wasn't just selling something 00:08:51.230 --> 00:08:53.909 online. No, it was a statement, a philosophical 00:08:53.909 --> 00:08:57.490 choice. He released the full hour special directly 00:08:57.490 --> 00:09:00.879 on his website, Price Point. Five dollars. Just 00:09:00.879 --> 00:09:02.919 five bucks. Just five bucks. And critically, 00:09:03.080 --> 00:09:06.620 absolutely critically, DRM free. Meaning? No 00:09:06.620 --> 00:09:08.340 digital rights management. You download it. You 00:09:08.340 --> 00:09:10.679 own it. Yeah. Copy it to your phone, your laptop, 00:09:10.860 --> 00:09:12.539 burn it to a disc, whatever. No restrictions. 00:09:12.679 --> 00:09:14.600 Which was pretty radical back then with piracy 00:09:14.600 --> 00:09:16.600 being such a huge concern. What was his thinking? 00:09:16.779 --> 00:09:18.500 He talked about it openly. He wanted to make 00:09:18.500 --> 00:09:20.879 buying it easier and cheaper than stealing it. 00:09:20.940 --> 00:09:24.679 Right. Close the gap. Exactly. Back then, torrenting 00:09:24.679 --> 00:09:27.220 was easy, but buying legally often meant dealing 00:09:27.220 --> 00:09:29.519 with clunky platforms, high prices, restrictions. 00:09:30.159 --> 00:09:33.399 He figured if he made the purchase super simple, 00:09:33.580 --> 00:09:37.120 super cheap, and totally restriction -free, people 00:09:37.120 --> 00:09:40.059 would just pay. Make the legal way the path of 00:09:40.059 --> 00:09:42.830 least resistance. And did it work? Financially? 00:09:42.929 --> 00:09:45.769 Did ever. It was a massive success. That special 00:09:45.769 --> 00:09:47.929 pulled in over a million dollars directly from 00:09:47.929 --> 00:09:50.429 his website in just a couple of weeks. December 00:09:50.429 --> 00:09:54.389 2011. Wow. A million bucks on a $5 download. 00:09:54.789 --> 00:09:57.659 Yeah. It proved you could completely bypass the 00:09:57.659 --> 00:09:59.860 cable networks, the DVD distributors, all the 00:09:59.860 --> 00:10:02.080 traditional gatekeepers, and still make serious 00:10:02.080 --> 00:10:04.059 money with high -quality content. And he didn't 00:10:04.059 --> 00:10:05.820 just pocket it all, right? There was a charitable 00:10:05.820 --> 00:10:07.679 aspect, too. That was part of the whole package, 00:10:07.759 --> 00:10:09.799 part of the narrative. He publicly gave away 00:10:09.799 --> 00:10:11.879 about half the profits split between his staff 00:10:11.879 --> 00:10:14.240 who worked on it and several charities, like 00:10:14.240 --> 00:10:17.100 the Fistula Foundation and Kiva. So the low price, 00:10:17.480 --> 00:10:20.200 the DRM free model, the transparency, the charity, 00:10:20.279 --> 00:10:23.059 it created this template. Totally. And other 00:10:23.059 --> 00:10:25.559 big comics noticed immediately. Jim Gaffigan, 00:10:25.720 --> 00:10:28.639 Joe Rogan, Aziz Ansari. They all started doing 00:10:28.639 --> 00:10:30.740 similar direct -to -consumer releases pretty 00:10:30.740 --> 00:10:33.440 quickly after that. It fundamentally shifted 00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:35.519 power towards the artists. Okay, so that's the 00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:38.000 digital innovation track. But before that really 00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:41.139 took off, he did try a more traditional TV route 00:10:41.139 --> 00:10:44.080 again after the indie film stuff, right? Lucky 00:10:44.080 --> 00:10:47.639 Louie. Yeah, 2006 on HBO. Lucky Louie. That was 00:10:47.639 --> 00:10:49.539 an interesting experiment in itself. Oh, so? 00:10:49.960 --> 00:10:52.960 It was HBO's first sitcom shot in the old school 00:10:52.960 --> 00:10:55.200 multi -camera style in front of a live studio 00:10:55.200 --> 00:10:58.059 audience. Very different for HBO. It was meant 00:10:58.059 --> 00:11:00.960 to be this really blunt, kind of raw look at 00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:03.480 working class family life. Did it work for HBO? 00:11:04.139 --> 00:11:06.299 Not really. It only lasted one season, got canceled. 00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:08.679 It sort of reinforced this idea that maybe his 00:11:08.679 --> 00:11:11.159 specific vision needed even more freedom than 00:11:11.159 --> 00:11:13.000 Premium Cable was willing to give at that point. 00:11:13.100 --> 00:11:15.539 This period also had significant personal changes 00:11:15.539 --> 00:11:18.159 for him, the divorce. Right. He and artist Alex 00:11:18.159 --> 00:11:20.840 Bailey divorced in 2008. They share custody of 00:11:20.840 --> 00:11:22.259 their two daughters. And he talked about how 00:11:22.259 --> 00:11:24.100 that impacted his comedy. Yeah, he was pretty 00:11:24.100 --> 00:11:26.559 open about it. Said his marriage had been such 00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:29.320 a huge part of his act for so long, it took him 00:11:29.320 --> 00:11:31.419 like a full year to figure out what his new material 00:11:31.419 --> 00:11:33.679 was, what his post -divorce voice sounded like 00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:35.860 on stage. That makes sense. A big life shift 00:11:35.860 --> 00:11:39.059 like that changes your perspective. But right 00:11:39.059 --> 00:11:40.720 around that time, as he's sort of figuring out 00:11:40.720 --> 00:11:44.639 his new act, something huge happens that pushes 00:11:44.639 --> 00:11:47.639 his stand -up career into a different stratosphere. 00:11:47.899 --> 00:11:50.980 The viral moment. The viral moment. His 2008 00:11:50.980 --> 00:11:54.360 appearance on Conan O 'Brien, the... Everything's 00:11:54.360 --> 00:11:56.960 amazing and nobody is happy bit. Oh, yeah, I 00:11:56.960 --> 00:11:59.059 remember that. It was everywhere. It completely 00:11:59.059 --> 00:12:02.279 exploded online in 2009. YouTube, blogs, everywhere. 00:12:02.600 --> 00:12:04.899 It made him a household name way beyond just 00:12:04.899 --> 00:12:07.320 comedy nerds or people who knew him from writer's 00:12:07.320 --> 00:12:09.740 rooms. It perfectly set the stage for his next 00:12:09.740 --> 00:12:11.620 big move, the one where he got total control. 00:12:11.919 --> 00:12:14.679 And that next big move was Louis, 2010, on FX. 00:12:14.919 --> 00:12:16.639 This feels like the moment where everything clicks 00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:19.019 into place for him. It really does. Yeah. All 00:12:19.019 --> 00:12:21.100 those threads we talk about, the technical skills 00:12:21.100 --> 00:12:23.519 from public access, the writing chops from late 00:12:23.519 --> 00:12:26.360 night, the ambition, maybe the frustration from 00:12:26.360 --> 00:12:29.399 the film attempts, it all came together. And 00:12:29.399 --> 00:12:31.539 FX gave him the keys to the kingdom, basically. 00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:34.919 Pretty much. The deal was legendary for the amount 00:12:34.919 --> 00:12:37.940 of control he got. FX gave him a relatively small 00:12:37.940 --> 00:12:40.919 budget, but in return, they offered minimal interference. 00:12:41.460 --> 00:12:45.009 He was the star, the writer. the director, and 00:12:45.009 --> 00:12:48.169 the editor on almost every single episode. That's 00:12:48.169 --> 00:12:50.909 unheard of, especially back then. Totally. And 00:12:50.909 --> 00:12:53.389 the show itself reflected that freedom. It was 00:12:53.389 --> 00:12:55.929 semi -autobiographical, blending these really 00:12:55.929 --> 00:12:58.370 cinematic, sometimes surreal vignettes about 00:12:58.370 --> 00:13:01.049 his life as a divorced dad in New York with clips 00:13:01.049 --> 00:13:03.529 of his actual stand -up routines. Critics loved 00:13:03.529 --> 00:13:05.529 it, right? They treated it more like indie film 00:13:05.529 --> 00:13:07.809 than a typical sitcom. What made it feel so different? 00:13:08.049 --> 00:13:10.409 It was the style, the tone. It wasn't afraid 00:13:10.409 --> 00:13:14.009 to be awkward or depressing or just weird. It 00:13:14.009 --> 00:13:16.909 used animation sometimes, dream sequences. The 00:13:16.909 --> 00:13:19.129 pacing could be really slow, really observational. 00:13:19.129 --> 00:13:21.210 It broke a lot of sitcom rules. More interested 00:13:21.210 --> 00:13:23.429 in mood and character than set -up punchline. 00:13:23.750 --> 00:13:26.529 Exactly. It felt deeply personal, very auteur 00:13:26.529 --> 00:13:29.629 -driven, and often really uncomfortable, but 00:13:29.629 --> 00:13:32.309 funny in that discomfort. And the awards followed 00:13:32.309 --> 00:13:34.870 that critical acclaim. Oh, yeah. The Emmys in 00:13:34.870 --> 00:13:37.850 particular. He got nominated five times for lead 00:13:37.850 --> 00:13:40.070 actor. Didn't win that, but he did win twice. 00:13:40.669 --> 00:13:42.490 for outstanding writing for a comedy series. 00:13:42.690 --> 00:13:44.870 Which episodes? First for Pregnant in season 00:13:44.870 --> 00:13:48.610 two, and then really significantly for So Did 00:13:48.610 --> 00:13:51.450 the Fat Lady in season three. That episode got 00:13:51.450 --> 00:13:53.730 a ton of attention. Right. That one was really 00:13:53.730 --> 00:13:56.529 praised for tackling body image and dating in 00:13:56.529 --> 00:13:59.870 a way that felt brutally honest. Critics really 00:13:59.870 --> 00:14:03.509 pointed to specific episodes or arcs as examples 00:14:03.509 --> 00:14:05.909 of the show pushing boundaries. Like what? Season 00:14:05.909 --> 00:14:08.149 three was often seen as a peak. There was a whole 00:14:08.149 --> 00:14:10.289 storyline with Parker Posey playing this kind 00:14:10.289 --> 00:14:13.830 of unstable bookshop clerk he dates. It was tense 00:14:13.830 --> 00:14:16.190 and funny and sad all at once. I remember that 00:14:16.190 --> 00:14:17.929 arc. Then there was the multi -episode thing 00:14:17.929 --> 00:14:19.509 where he sort of imagines himself potentially 00:14:19.509 --> 00:14:22.370 taking over Letterman's show, blurring reality 00:14:22.370 --> 00:14:24.789 and fiction. Yeah. And the New Year's Eve episode 00:14:24.789 --> 00:14:27.210 from that season, people called it audacious, 00:14:27.250 --> 00:14:29.929 playing with dream logic. It just showed how 00:14:29.929 --> 00:14:32.629 willing the show was to get experimental, to 00:14:32.629 --> 00:14:35.299 break form. After season three, though. He took 00:14:35.299 --> 00:14:37.419 a pretty long break from the show. Yeah, about 00:14:37.419 --> 00:14:39.919 19 months off. He wanted to focus on other things, 00:14:40.039 --> 00:14:42.480 especially film roles, which shows you how much 00:14:42.480 --> 00:14:44.559 his profile had grown. He was getting pulled 00:14:44.559 --> 00:14:46.879 back towards the mainstream movie world. Oh, 00:14:46.899 --> 00:14:48.679 kind of roles was he getting? Pretty high -profile 00:14:48.679 --> 00:14:50.799 stuff, critically acclaimed films. He was in 00:14:50.799 --> 00:14:53.860 Woody Allen's Blue Jasmine, David O. Russell's 00:14:53.860 --> 00:14:56.519 American Hustle in 2013. American Hustle won 00:14:56.519 --> 00:14:58.639 awards, right? Yeah, the cast won the Screen 00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:00.720 Actors Guild Award for Outstanding Ensemble. 00:15:01.019 --> 00:15:03.200 So he shared in that. He was also in Trumbo in 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:06.759 2015, showing he can navigate both worlds, his 00:15:06.759 --> 00:15:10.080 very personal indie TV work and these big Hollywood 00:15:10.080 --> 00:15:12.080 movies. But then he did something completely 00:15:12.080 --> 00:15:15.720 unexpected, even for him, Horace and Pete. Ah, 00:15:15.820 --> 00:15:19.600 yes. 2016. This was something else entirely. 00:15:19.899 --> 00:15:22.440 He self -funded it, released it directly on his 00:15:22.440 --> 00:15:24.799 website with absolutely zero warning or promotion, 00:15:24.980 --> 00:15:27.419 just dropped it. And it wasn't a comedy special. 00:15:27.519 --> 00:15:29.879 It wasn't like Louie. What was it? It was basically 00:15:29.879 --> 00:15:34.080 a filmed play, a tragic comic drama set in this 00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:38.259 decaying, generations -old Brooklyn bar. He starred 00:15:38.259 --> 00:15:41.840 alongside some serious dramatic actors, Steve 00:15:41.840 --> 00:15:45.580 Buscemi, Edie Falco, Alan Alda. Jessica Lange. 00:15:45.820 --> 00:15:48.259 Wow, that's a heavy -hitting cast for a web series 00:15:48.259 --> 00:15:50.840 he just put online. Exactly. And the tone was 00:15:50.840 --> 00:15:52.659 heavy, too. Critics were kind of stunned trying 00:15:52.659 --> 00:15:54.419 to figure out what to even call it. What was 00:15:54.419 --> 00:15:56.899 the consensus? James Poniewozik at the time said 00:15:56.899 --> 00:15:59.000 that great line. It was like a Cheers spec script 00:15:59.000 --> 00:16:01.600 written by Eugene O 'Neill. Ah, that captures 00:16:01.600 --> 00:16:05.440 it. Dark. Very dark. Deeply melancholic. It dealt 00:16:05.440 --> 00:16:08.000 with mental illness, family secrets, alcoholism. 00:16:08.580 --> 00:16:11.350 But with these moments of bleak humor. People 00:16:11.350 --> 00:16:13.110 praised the writing. The acting was phenomenal. 00:16:13.370 --> 00:16:14.970 It's often pointed to as a key example, maybe 00:16:14.970 --> 00:16:17.250 even the pioneer of the sad -com comedy structure, 00:16:17.509 --> 00:16:21.029 but with profound, dramatic, often tragic weight. 00:16:21.190 --> 00:16:24.009 Again, total control. No network notes, no marketing 00:16:24.009 --> 00:16:26.269 plan, just pure artistic vision straight to the 00:16:26.269 --> 00:16:28.649 audience. The ultimate expression of his independent 00:16:28.649 --> 00:16:31.830 model. And at the same time, he was still working 00:16:31.830 --> 00:16:33.970 within the system at FX, but as a producer, a 00:16:33.970 --> 00:16:36.789 creator. Right. He co -created Baskets with Zach 00:16:36.789 --> 00:16:39.889 Galifianakis. And Better Things with Pamela Adlon. 00:16:40.049 --> 00:16:42.309 He co -wrote and directed the pilot for Better 00:16:42.309 --> 00:16:45.230 Things, which got a lot of acclaim itself. So 00:16:45.230 --> 00:16:46.789 he's got his fingers in all these pies. High 00:16:46.789 --> 00:16:49.909 art indie drama, successful cable comedies he's 00:16:49.909 --> 00:16:52.139 producing. And then. just to make it even more 00:16:52.139 --> 00:16:55.019 surprising, massive mainstream commercial success. 00:16:55.360 --> 00:16:58.899 How? Voice hacking. In 2016, he voiced the main 00:16:58.899 --> 00:17:01.519 character, Max the dog, in the animated movie, 00:17:01.659 --> 00:17:03.980 The Secret Life of Pets. Oh, right. That movie 00:17:03.980 --> 00:17:07.619 was huge. 2GE. Made something like $875 million 00:17:07.619 --> 00:17:10.880 worldwide. Absolute blockbuster. Okay, so let's 00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:13.259 pause and take stock of where he is in, say, 00:17:13.339 --> 00:17:16.259 mid -2016. It's kind of staggering. He's self 00:17:16.259 --> 00:17:19.180 -releasing, groundbreaking, high art drama online. 00:17:19.400 --> 00:17:22.500 He's co -creating hit shows on FX. He's acting 00:17:22.500 --> 00:17:25.059 in Oscar -nominated movies. He's the lead voice 00:17:25.059 --> 00:17:27.759 in a global animated smash hit. And he's still 00:17:27.759 --> 00:17:29.960 doing stand -up at the highest level. He sold 00:17:29.960 --> 00:17:33.079 out Madison Square Garden three times on a single 00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:36.890 tour in 2015. First comedian ever to do that. 00:17:37.009 --> 00:17:39.230 Plus, he won two Grammys for his stand -up albums 00:17:39.230 --> 00:17:41.730 during this period, hilarious and live at Madison 00:17:41.730 --> 00:17:44.430 Square Garden. Right. It's hard to overstate 00:17:44.430 --> 00:17:46.589 the breadth and depth of his success and influence 00:17:46.589 --> 00:17:49.089 at that moment. He seemed to have cracked the 00:17:49.089 --> 00:17:51.809 code, complete creative autonomy, leading to 00:17:51.809 --> 00:17:54.529 both critical adoration and massive commercial 00:17:54.529 --> 00:17:57.599 appeal. He was the exception. The absolute pick. 00:17:57.779 --> 00:18:00.359 But, as the sources indicate, even at this height, 00:18:00.460 --> 00:18:02.980 there were whispers, rumors starting to surface 00:18:02.980 --> 00:18:05.420 more publicly about his behavior behind the scenes. 00:18:05.599 --> 00:18:07.940 The storm clouds were gathering, even if the 00:18:07.940 --> 00:18:09.960 Empire looked untouchable. OK, so let's move 00:18:09.960 --> 00:18:12.700 into that turning point, 2017. And as you said, 00:18:12.839 --> 00:18:15.140 the sources show these weren't sudden out of 00:18:15.140 --> 00:18:17.519 the blue accusations. Rumors have been swirling 00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:19.619 for years. Yeah, within the comedy world, definitely. 00:18:19.799 --> 00:18:21.660 People like Roseanne Barr had mentioned things 00:18:21.660 --> 00:18:24.819 publicly way back. Tig Notaro was quite vocal 00:18:24.819 --> 00:18:27.519 about it, especially leading into 2017. What 00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:30.019 did Notaro say? She publicly distanced herself 00:18:30.019 --> 00:18:32.940 from him, urged him to address the rumors of 00:18:32.940 --> 00:18:35.990 misconduct that just wouldn't go away. There 00:18:35.990 --> 00:18:37.829 was definitely a sense of something being known 00:18:37.829 --> 00:18:40.950 or at least heavily suspected within the industry. 00:18:41.150 --> 00:18:42.809 And right before it all broke, he had another 00:18:42.809 --> 00:18:45.789 film project. I Love You, Daddy. Yes. A black 00:18:45.789 --> 00:18:48.549 and white film he directed and starred in. Shot 00:18:48.549 --> 00:18:51.809 on 35mm, very old school. It premiered at the 00:18:51.809 --> 00:18:54.769 Toronto Film Festival in September 2017. But 00:18:54.769 --> 00:18:57.509 even then, the issue was present. Oh yeah. He 00:18:57.509 --> 00:18:59.490 was asked about the rumors directly in a New 00:18:59.490 --> 00:19:01.230 York Times interview around the festival time. 00:19:02.009 --> 00:19:04.660 And he denied them. Called them rumors. Said 00:19:04.660 --> 00:19:06.119 it wasn't productive to talk about them in the 00:19:06.119 --> 00:19:09.619 press. So a public denial just weeks before. 00:19:09.880 --> 00:19:13.660 Before the dam broke. November 9, 2017. The New 00:19:13.660 --> 00:19:15.299 York Times published their big investigative 00:19:15.299 --> 00:19:18.000 piece. And what did it detail? Allegations from 00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:20.680 five women about sexual misconduct. The most 00:19:20.680 --> 00:19:23.019 prominent were comedians Dana Min Goodman and 00:19:23.019 --> 00:19:26.079 Julia Woloff, who described him masturbating 00:19:26.079 --> 00:19:28.240 in front of them in his hotel room after a festival 00:19:28.240 --> 00:19:31.779 in 2002. Rebecca Corey said he asked if he could 00:19:31.779 --> 00:19:34.279 do the same in front of her on a TV set in 2005. 00:19:34.799 --> 00:19:39.140 She refused. Another woman, Abby Shockner, alleged 00:19:39.140 --> 00:19:41.279 he did it while they were on a phone call. It 00:19:41.279 --> 00:19:44.480 was specific, named, and corroborated. And the 00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:47.240 reaction was immediate. Instantaneous and devastating. 00:19:47.829 --> 00:19:50.289 Within hours, everything started to crumble. 00:19:50.589 --> 00:19:52.470 He released a statement pretty quickly. What 00:19:52.470 --> 00:19:54.470 did his statement say? Crucially, he admitted 00:19:54.470 --> 00:19:57.809 it. He said, these stories are true. He acknowledged 00:19:57.809 --> 00:20:00.470 the power imbalance, saying he wielded that power 00:20:00.470 --> 00:20:03.269 irresponsibly. He included that line about thinking 00:20:03.269 --> 00:20:05.470 it was okay because he never showed a woman my 00:20:05.470 --> 00:20:07.650 dick without asking first, but then admitted 00:20:07.650 --> 00:20:09.609 that wasn't okay at all given the power dynamic. 00:20:09.730 --> 00:20:12.569 He said he'd step back and listen. But the industry 00:20:12.569 --> 00:20:14.569 didn't wait for him to step back. They acted 00:20:14.569 --> 00:20:16.890 decisively. Totally. It wasn't just a slap on 00:20:16.890 --> 00:20:19.029 the wrist. It was complete and utter professional 00:20:19.029 --> 00:20:23.190 exile. FX, his home base for Louis, Baskets, 00:20:23.190 --> 00:20:26.210 Better Things, cut all ties immediately. Done. 00:20:26.369 --> 00:20:28.450 Netflix. Canceled an upcoming special they had 00:20:28.450 --> 00:20:30.369 planned with him. And they pull all his existing 00:20:30.369 --> 00:20:33.609 stuff off their platform. Gone. Ichio, too. Same 00:20:33.609 --> 00:20:36.250 thing. Pulled all his specials. Pulled Lucky 00:20:36.250 --> 00:20:38.589 Louis. Canceled an appearance he was supposed 00:20:38.589 --> 00:20:41.289 to make on an upcoming benefit show. Wiped clean. 00:20:41.640 --> 00:20:43.660 So the platforms just erased him. What about 00:20:43.660 --> 00:20:45.859 the projects he had in the works? I love you, 00:20:45.900 --> 00:20:48.460 Daddy. The film that just premiered, its distributor, 00:20:48.700 --> 00:20:51.519 The Orchard, canceled the release entirely. Just 00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:54.539 shelved it. Wow. TBS had an animated series he 00:20:54.539 --> 00:20:57.440 co -created called The Cops. They suspended production, 00:20:57.700 --> 00:21:00.500 then scrapped it completely. Even past work was 00:21:00.500 --> 00:21:02.960 affected, like the voice acting. Yeah, they went 00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:04.779 back and removed him. He was replaced as the 00:21:04.779 --> 00:21:07.759 voice of Max in The Secret Life of Pets 2. His 00:21:07.759 --> 00:21:10.079 voice cameo was even removed from reruns of the 00:21:10.079 --> 00:21:12.240 Disney show Gravity Falls. It was a systematic 00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:14.579 removal. The industry was sending a very clear 00:21:14.579 --> 00:21:18.559 message. Unambiguous. Persona non grata. And 00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:21.240 the financial hit was enormous. Did he ever put 00:21:21.240 --> 00:21:23.759 a number on it? He later said, according to sources, 00:21:23.980 --> 00:21:25.859 that the immediate fallout cost him something 00:21:25.859 --> 00:21:29.289 like $35 million in lost income. Canceled deals, 00:21:29.549 --> 00:21:32.309 scrapped projects, future earnings just gone 00:21:32.309 --> 00:21:36.309 overnight. $35 million. That really quantifies 00:21:36.309 --> 00:21:39.349 the value he commanded at his peak and the totality 00:21:39.349 --> 00:21:41.250 of the cancellation by the traditional industry. 00:21:41.650 --> 00:21:45.390 That door slammed shut. Hard. Irrevocably closed. 00:21:45.789 --> 00:21:48.170 The mainstream path was gone. So the mainstream 00:21:48.170 --> 00:21:50.950 industry shuts him out completely. But as we 00:21:50.950 --> 00:21:53.190 discussed, he had built this other thing, this 00:21:53.190 --> 00:21:55.349 direct line to an audience. That independent 00:21:55.349 --> 00:21:57.289 infrastructure he'd been building for years. 00:21:57.509 --> 00:21:59.430 And he didn't stay away for that long, did he? 00:21:59.470 --> 00:22:01.690 When did he first reappear? Less than a year 00:22:01.690 --> 00:22:05.230 later, August 2018. He did an unannounced drop 00:22:05.230 --> 00:22:07.910 -in set at the Comedy Cellar in New York. Just 00:22:07.910 --> 00:22:10.450 showed up? Just showed up. did about 15 minutes 00:22:10.450 --> 00:22:12.730 of his usual kind of material, didn't address 00:22:12.730 --> 00:22:16.750 the controversy directly on stage, and reportedly 00:22:16.750 --> 00:22:18.789 got a standing ovation from the crowd there. 00:22:18.950 --> 00:22:22.170 An ovation. Wow. That must have immediately sparked 00:22:22.170 --> 00:22:25.210 debate. Oh, instantly. It became this huge flashpoint. 00:22:25.329 --> 00:22:27.809 You had comedians like Judd Apatow, a part of 00:22:27.809 --> 00:22:30.150 Nantrila, saying it was way too soon, that he 00:22:30.150 --> 00:22:32.029 hadn't shown enough remorse, hadn't done the 00:22:32.029 --> 00:22:33.970 work. And on the other side. You had some really 00:22:33.970 --> 00:22:37.680 big names. Dave Chappelle. Chris Rock, Sarah 00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:40.519 Silverman, even Jim Gaffigan, basically defending 00:22:40.519 --> 00:22:43.339 his right to perform stand -up again, making 00:22:43.339 --> 00:22:45.779 a distinction between performing on stage and, 00:22:45.859 --> 00:22:48.920 say, getting a TV deal, arguing the audience 00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:50.740 could decide. It really split the community. 00:22:51.099 --> 00:22:53.259 Deeply. Jerry Seinfeld had an interesting take 00:22:53.259 --> 00:22:56.039 on it later. What did Seinfeld say? He suggested 00:22:56.039 --> 00:23:00.059 the public, or parts of the public, felt CK hadn't 00:23:00.059 --> 00:23:02.400 performed the expected ritual of contrition. 00:23:02.730 --> 00:23:05.430 that after such a big public tumble, people want 00:23:05.430 --> 00:23:07.829 to see the grovel, as Seinfeld put it. And C 00:23:07.829 --> 00:23:09.690 .K. sort of skipped that step by just going back 00:23:09.690 --> 00:23:11.869 to telling jokes, denied them that narrative 00:23:11.869 --> 00:23:14.069 arc. Interesting perspective, but his return 00:23:14.069 --> 00:23:16.190 wasn't smooth. There was controversy about the 00:23:16.190 --> 00:23:17.670 new material almost immediately, right? Yeah, 00:23:17.670 --> 00:23:20.930 that December 2018, someone secretly recorded 00:23:20.930 --> 00:23:23.750 a set he did on Long Island and leaked it online. 00:23:24.150 --> 00:23:26.329 And the jokes caused problems? Big problems. 00:23:26.470 --> 00:23:28.789 The leaked audio included jokes about the Parkland 00:23:28.789 --> 00:23:30.769 school shooting survivors, about non -binary 00:23:30.769 --> 00:23:33.670 people. Really provocative stuff that sparked 00:23:33.670 --> 00:23:36.190 immediate outrage and wall -to -wall negative 00:23:36.190 --> 00:23:39.509 press. So how did he respond to that leak, that 00:23:39.509 --> 00:23:41.970 scrutiny? He doubled down on controlling the 00:23:41.970 --> 00:23:44.670 environment. That's when the Yondra pouches became 00:23:44.670 --> 00:23:47.289 standard at his shows. Those pouches where you 00:23:47.289 --> 00:23:49.450 have to lock up your phone. Exactly. Audience 00:23:49.450 --> 00:23:51.789 members have to put their phones and any recording 00:23:51.789 --> 00:23:54.269 devices into these locked pouches before entering 00:23:54.269 --> 00:23:57.690 the venue. You keep the pouch, but you can't 00:23:57.690 --> 00:23:59.369 access your phone until you leave and get it 00:23:59.369 --> 00:24:01.460 unlocked. So it wasn't just about protecting 00:24:01.460 --> 00:24:03.980 his jokes from being stolen. No, it seemed more 00:24:03.980 --> 00:24:06.339 about preventing hostile leaks, preventing jokes 00:24:06.339 --> 00:24:08.539 from being taken out of context and weaponized 00:24:08.539 --> 00:24:11.119 online or in the media. It was about ensuring 00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:13.759 the performance only existed in that room, between 00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:16.680 him and the paying audience, creating a sealed 00:24:16.680 --> 00:24:19.359 environment. A fortress around the direct transaction. 00:24:19.799 --> 00:24:21.940 And other comedians started using them, too. 00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:23.700 Yeah, it became much more common after that, 00:24:23.740 --> 00:24:26.000 especially for big names doing potentially controversial 00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:28.779 material. Chappelle uses them. John Mulaney has. 00:24:29.500 --> 00:24:32.539 CK certainly helped popularize it out of necessity. 00:24:32.779 --> 00:24:35.000 Then came the definitive signal he was fully 00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:38.200 embracing the independent path again. Releasing 00:24:38.200 --> 00:24:42.539 a new special himself. Yep. January 2020. Sincerely, 00:24:42.539 --> 00:24:47.099 Louis CK. Dropped it on his website. $5. DRM 00:24:47.099 --> 00:24:49.900 free. Just like the old days. No advance warning. 00:24:50.079 --> 00:24:53.119 No traditional promotion. And that special actually 00:24:53.119 --> 00:24:55.579 got major recognition, didn't it? Despite everything. 00:24:55.799 --> 00:24:58.509 It did. In 2022, it won the Grammy Award for 00:24:58.509 --> 00:25:01.930 Best Comedy Album. Wow, a Grammy. So the Recording 00:25:01.930 --> 00:25:04.029 Academy voters gave him that validation, even 00:25:04.029 --> 00:25:06.190 if the Emmys or the film industry wouldn't touch 00:25:06.190 --> 00:25:08.230 him. Exactly. It showed that his independent 00:25:08.230 --> 00:25:10.750 ecosystem could still yield the highest industry 00:25:10.750 --> 00:25:13.950 awards in certain fields, completely bypassing 00:25:13.950 --> 00:25:16.269 the gatekeepers who had exiled him. What was 00:25:16.269 --> 00:25:18.789 the general reaction to the special itself, the 00:25:18.789 --> 00:25:21.910 content? Still divisive, as you'd expect. Some 00:25:21.910 --> 00:25:24.240 critics acknowledged parts were funny. but wrestled 00:25:24.240 --> 00:25:26.400 with the context. Amy Schumer's comments were 00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:28.059 interesting. She said she laughed a lot, but 00:25:28.059 --> 00:25:29.900 found it hard not to think about his past actions, 00:25:29.960 --> 00:25:31.960 questioned if he'd really changed or learned 00:25:31.960 --> 00:25:34.160 anything. The ethical shadow remained. And he 00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:36.240 kept releasing specials this way. Yeah, he followed 00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:39.279 it up with Sorry in 2021, and then Back to the 00:25:39.279 --> 00:25:42.460 Garden in 2023. That last one was recorded at 00:25:42.460 --> 00:25:44.880 a sold -out Madison Square Garden show. So he's 00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:47.019 still filling arenas, even operating completely 00:25:47.019 --> 00:25:50.490 outside the mainstream system. Seems so. The 00:25:50.490 --> 00:25:52.150 direct audience connection is still strong enough 00:25:52.150 --> 00:25:54.410 for that. He also went back to filmmaking on 00:25:54.410 --> 00:25:58.009 his own terms. Right. Fourth of July, 2022. Co 00:25:58.009 --> 00:26:01.410 -wrote and directed that comedy drama. And the 00:26:01.410 --> 00:26:03.410 way he promoted it was the final piece of the 00:26:03.410 --> 00:26:05.690 puzzle, really showing his complete break from 00:26:05.690 --> 00:26:08.049 the old ways. How did he promote it? No talk 00:26:08.049 --> 00:26:11.289 shows. Zero traditional media. No late night 00:26:11.289 --> 00:26:13.950 appearances. No morning shows. No newspaper interviews. 00:26:14.390 --> 00:26:16.650 Instead, he went exclusively to big podcasts. 00:26:17.049 --> 00:26:19.869 Like Joe Rogan. Exactly. He did long -form interviews 00:26:19.869 --> 00:26:22.009 on the Joe Rogan experience, Your Mom's House, 00:26:22.150 --> 00:26:25.089 with Tom Segura and Christina Positsky, platforms 00:26:25.089 --> 00:26:27.509 with huge, dedicated audiences where he could 00:26:27.509 --> 00:26:30.009 have unfiltered conversations, bypass journalists 00:26:30.009 --> 00:26:33.069 entirely. It solidified his move into this parallel 00:26:33.069 --> 00:26:36.109 media universe, relying entirely on that direct, 00:26:36.329 --> 00:26:39.150 often digitally mediated relationship. Completely. 00:26:39.210 --> 00:26:41.549 The new model, born of necessity, but built on 00:26:41.549 --> 00:26:43.609 the foundation he'd laid years before. Okay, 00:26:43.630 --> 00:26:45.230 just to round out the picture, let's touch briefly 00:26:45.230 --> 00:26:47.789 on his stated personal views, his philosophy, 00:26:47.990 --> 00:26:52.589 politics, which seem, maybe unsurprisingly, resistant 00:26:52.589 --> 00:26:55.230 to easy labels. Yeah, that fits the pattern. 00:26:55.970 --> 00:26:58.049 Politically, he's expressed a real skepticism 00:26:58.049 --> 00:27:00.490 about anyone who fits neatly into one ideological 00:27:00.490 --> 00:27:03.430 box. What did he put it? He said he's very suspicious 00:27:03.430 --> 00:27:06.089 of people who fall into one category for everything. 00:27:06.650 --> 00:27:09.130 He thinks some issues need a conservative approach, 00:27:09.390 --> 00:27:12.309 others need a liberal one. He values that kind 00:27:12.309 --> 00:27:14.950 of independent thinking over strict party lines. 00:27:15.190 --> 00:27:17.670 But he has commented very strongly on specific 00:27:17.670 --> 00:27:20.250 figures, notably Donald Trump. Oh, unequivocally. 00:27:20.289 --> 00:27:23.029 During the 2016 election, he sent out this widely 00:27:23.029 --> 00:27:25.269 publicized email to his fan list. What did it 00:27:25.269 --> 00:27:27.690 say? He compared Trump to Adolf Hitler, called 00:27:27.690 --> 00:27:30.230 him an insane bigot, a sad man, really strong 00:27:30.230 --> 00:27:32.289 language. Did he stand by the Hitler comparison? 00:27:32.670 --> 00:27:35.049 He later walked that specific comparison back, 00:27:35.089 --> 00:27:37.690 calling it maybe irrational hyperbole. But he 00:27:37.690 --> 00:27:40.680 didn't walk back his overall assessment. In 2017 00:27:40.680 --> 00:27:43.859 on Colbert's show, he clarified his view of Trump 00:27:43.859 --> 00:27:46.779 as, and this is a direct quote, a gross, crook, 00:27:46.779 --> 00:27:50.339 dirty, rotten, lying sack of shit. OK, so pretty 00:27:50.339 --> 00:27:52.799 clear where he stood there, despite the aversion 00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:55.180 to labels. Very clear. And his voting record 00:27:55.180 --> 00:27:57.420 seems to back that up, generally leaning left. 00:27:57.579 --> 00:28:00.059 Oh, so. Sources say he voted for the Democratic 00:28:00.059 --> 00:28:02.700 presidential candidate consistently in 2004, 00:28:03.059 --> 00:28:07.180 08, 12 and 16. He did donate to Joe Biden's campaign 00:28:07.180 --> 00:28:10.859 in 2020 about twenty eight hundred dollars. But. 00:28:11.119 --> 00:28:13.200 But the Biden campaign later stated that they 00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:16.019 refunded the donation. Interesting. OK. And outside 00:28:16.019 --> 00:28:18.950 of politics, relationships, religion. Well. He 00:28:18.950 --> 00:28:21.990 was married to Alex Bailey from 95 to 2008. He 00:28:21.990 --> 00:28:24.869 dated the musician Fiona Apple for a while. And 00:28:24.869 --> 00:28:26.690 more recently, he confirmed he was dating French 00:28:26.690 --> 00:28:29.289 comedian Blanche Garden in 2018. Are they still 00:28:29.289 --> 00:28:31.349 together? Reports indicate they had broken up 00:28:31.349 --> 00:28:34.430 by August 2022. And religion. Raised Catholic, 00:28:34.589 --> 00:28:37.230 but now... Now identifies as agnostic. Okay. 00:28:37.630 --> 00:28:39.650 So let's try to wrap this all up. We followed 00:28:39.650 --> 00:28:42.109 this incredible arc, the surprising international 00:28:42.109 --> 00:28:44.890 childhood, Spanish as a first language, the early 00:28:44.890 --> 00:28:47.549 technical skills that proved so vital, the move 00:28:47.549 --> 00:28:49.690 from being a top tier writer behind the scenes 00:28:49.690 --> 00:28:52.869 to wanting control, the difficult Pootie Tang 00:28:52.869 --> 00:28:54.329 experience pushing him towards independence. 00:28:54.589 --> 00:28:57.029 Then pioneering that direct -to -consumer model. 00:28:57.390 --> 00:28:59.329 that really did change the game for comedians. 00:28:59.410 --> 00:29:01.829 Reaching that absolute creative peak with Louis, 00:29:02.029 --> 00:29:04.630 experimenting with Horace and Pete, achieving 00:29:04.630 --> 00:29:07.349 massive mainstream success simultaneously. And 00:29:07.349 --> 00:29:10.750 then the crash. The 2017 allegations, the admission, 00:29:11.049 --> 00:29:15.279 the total industry exile, costing him... By his 00:29:15.279 --> 00:29:17.859 own account, tens of millions of dollars. It 00:29:17.859 --> 00:29:20.579 really is a story of extremes. Extreme success, 00:29:20.759 --> 00:29:23.660 extreme failure, extreme independence. That's 00:29:23.660 --> 00:29:25.859 the core of it, I think. The contradiction. He 00:29:25.859 --> 00:29:27.940 gets the highest honors from the mainstream Emmys. 00:29:28.339 --> 00:29:30.599 Recognition then gets completely cast out by 00:29:30.599 --> 00:29:33.200 those same gatekeepers. But his survival, his 00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:36.009 ability to still work. To fill Madison Square 00:29:36.009 --> 00:29:38.369 Garden again, to win another Grammy after being 00:29:38.369 --> 00:29:40.789 canceled. It rests almost entirely on that independent 00:29:40.789 --> 00:29:43.369 pathway he built. The website, the direct sales 00:29:43.369 --> 00:29:46.309 model, the podcast circuit. It became his lifeboat, 00:29:46.450 --> 00:29:48.589 built years before the storm hit. He essentially 00:29:48.589 --> 00:29:50.990 constructed his own parallel industry, one immune 00:29:50.990 --> 00:29:53.309 to the decisions of the old one. Using yonder 00:29:53.309 --> 00:29:55.950 pouches and sympathetic podcast hosts as his 00:29:55.950 --> 00:29:58.430 new gatekeepers, in a way. It's a remarkable 00:29:58.430 --> 00:30:01.480 second act. Possible only because of that foundation 00:30:01.480 --> 00:30:03.660 of autonomy. Which brings us to our final thought 00:30:03.660 --> 00:30:06.039 for you, the listener. We've talked a lot about 00:30:06.039 --> 00:30:09.460 how CK's innovations in selling tickets and specials 00:30:09.460 --> 00:30:11.839 were designed to cut out the middleman, right? 00:30:11.920 --> 00:30:14.740 To create this pure, direct link between him 00:30:14.740 --> 00:30:18.019 and his fans. Giving him freedom, making him 00:30:18.019 --> 00:30:20.599 millions. Bypassing the traditional filters. 00:30:20.839 --> 00:30:23.460 So knowing everything that happened in 2017, 00:30:23.740 --> 00:30:26.259 knowing the scale of the professional consequences 00:30:26.259 --> 00:30:28.519 he faced from the established media companies, 00:30:28.700 --> 00:30:31.640 the networks, the studios, what does it really 00:30:31.640 --> 00:30:33.779 signify? What does it mean for where entertainment 00:30:33.779 --> 00:30:36.460 might be heading? Yeah. What does it mean that 00:30:36.460 --> 00:30:38.920 his ongoing career, his ability to still sell 00:30:38.920 --> 00:30:41.880 out arenas and release acclaimed work, now depends 00:30:41.880 --> 00:30:44.539 almost entirely on that direct transactional 00:30:44.539 --> 00:30:47.200 relationship? A relationship that, by its very 00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:50.140 nature, avoids the old gatekeepers, the critics, 00:30:50.319 --> 00:30:52.400 the network executives, the HR departments who 00:30:52.400 --> 00:30:54.839 decided he crossed a line. Think about that. 00:30:54.920 --> 00:30:57.160 What are the implications when an artist can 00:30:57.160 --> 00:30:59.880 effectively bypass the industry's ethical judgments 00:30:59.880 --> 00:31:02.839 as long as that direct connection to the consumer 00:31:02.839 --> 00:31:05.829 remains strong enough? It's something to consider 00:31:05.829 --> 00:31:08.430 next time you click buy on content the old system 00:31:08.430 --> 00:31:09.630 might have refused to distribute.