WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.960 Welcome back to the Deep Dive. Today we're plunging 00:00:02.960 --> 00:00:06.599 headfirst into the really extraordinary and often, 00:00:06.719 --> 00:00:09.640 well, frankly, bizarre career of John Ronson. 00:00:09.720 --> 00:00:12.119 He's that British -American journalist, author, 00:00:12.339 --> 00:00:15.800 filmmaker. You know the one. Yeah, and our mission 00:00:15.800 --> 00:00:18.199 today, it's pretty specific. We want to really 00:00:18.199 --> 00:00:22.079 get under the hood of how... Ronson operates, 00:00:22.300 --> 00:00:24.760 you know, what's his system? He's become this 00:00:24.760 --> 00:00:26.839 like go to guide for the world's weirdest corners. 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:29.739 And we're aiming to go beyond just summarizing 00:00:29.739 --> 00:00:32.060 his books. You're right. We're trying to dissect 00:00:32.060 --> 00:00:34.640 his whole investigative approach, that faux naive 00:00:34.640 --> 00:00:36.799 character thing he talks about. It's what lets 00:00:36.799 --> 00:00:38.899 him into spaces. I mean, places most journalists 00:00:38.899 --> 00:00:40.579 would just get the door slammed in their face. 00:00:40.679 --> 00:00:42.280 That's absolutely the core of it, isn't it? Yeah. 00:00:42.320 --> 00:00:44.100 How does someone jump from, say, investigating 00:00:44.100 --> 00:00:47.299 militant extremists one minute to corporate psychopaths 00:00:47.299 --> 00:00:49.979 the next and then on to psychic military experiments? 00:00:50.539 --> 00:00:52.679 all while keeping that same distinctive, slightly 00:00:52.679 --> 00:00:55.719 baffled kind of voice. And the sources we've 00:00:55.719 --> 00:00:58.420 got stacked up here, I mean, it's... incredibly 00:00:58.420 --> 00:01:01.079 comprehensive. We're talking nine books, decades 00:01:01.079 --> 00:01:03.880 of stuff for major outlets like The Guardian, 00:01:04.099 --> 00:01:06.200 loads of TV and radio. And of course, those big 00:01:06.200 --> 00:01:09.079 film adaptations. He often gets tagged as a gonzo 00:01:09.079 --> 00:01:11.640 journalist, right? That very participatory story 00:01:11.640 --> 00:01:14.739 driven style. But he mixes it with this sort 00:01:14.739 --> 00:01:18.019 of light touch skepticism. His signature is definitely 00:01:18.019 --> 00:01:20.620 that faux naïve thing. He's always informal, 00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:24.349 but like intensely curious. Yeah. And it makes 00:01:24.349 --> 00:01:26.989 these deep dives into really controversial fringe 00:01:26.989 --> 00:01:29.790 politics and science seem almost, well, easy, 00:01:29.969 --> 00:01:32.909 effortless even. And the genius there, I think, 00:01:32.909 --> 00:01:36.150 is that he refuses to be the judge or, you know, 00:01:36.150 --> 00:01:38.450 the ultimate expert piping up. He's more like 00:01:38.450 --> 00:01:40.329 the listener's stand in the slightly overwhelmed 00:01:40.329 --> 00:01:42.900 guide navigating these strange lands of. the 00:01:42.900 --> 00:01:44.920 radical fringe. Exactly. So for you listening 00:01:44.920 --> 00:01:47.819 in, Ronson's career is just a total masterclass 00:01:47.819 --> 00:01:50.659 in uncovering those really hidden stories, getting 00:01:50.659 --> 00:01:52.879 past the shouty headlines to connect these, I 00:01:52.879 --> 00:01:54.840 don't know, crazy sounding ideas that actually 00:01:54.840 --> 00:01:57.000 have real world impact, sometimes systemic impact. 00:01:57.239 --> 00:01:59.939 Okay, so let's unpack this, this really unique 00:01:59.939 --> 00:02:03.459 career, starting with how that foundational style, 00:02:03.719 --> 00:02:06.079 the faux naïve thing, was kind of forged back 00:02:06.079 --> 00:02:09.599 in the UK media scene. Right. So his origin story, 00:02:09.759 --> 00:02:13.330 it starts in Cardiff, Wales. Born there. May 00:02:13.330 --> 00:02:16.310 10th, 1967. Went to Cardiff High School. Okay. 00:02:16.409 --> 00:02:19.770 And his first taste of media was actually working 00:02:19.770 --> 00:02:22.550 for CBC Radio right there in Cardiff. So he got 00:02:22.550 --> 00:02:24.650 comfortable with audio storytelling pretty early 00:02:24.650 --> 00:02:27.870 on. Ah, interesting. But the big move was London, 00:02:27.969 --> 00:02:30.990 wasn't it? For that media degree at the Polytechnic 00:02:30.990 --> 00:02:33.389 of Central London PCO. Yeah, that was pivotal. 00:02:33.469 --> 00:02:36.150 That mix of, you know, theory and practice, it 00:02:36.150 --> 00:02:39.270 really set the stage for his big break in journalism 00:02:39.270 --> 00:02:40.949 where he basically became the main character 00:02:40.949 --> 00:02:42.789 in his own stories. Right. And that came through 00:02:42.789 --> 00:02:45.150 Time Out magazine. Exactly. He got his initial, 00:02:45.250 --> 00:02:47.810 like, widespread fame writing a column for Time 00:02:47.810 --> 00:02:50.090 Out. And crucially, this wasn't just, you know, 00:02:50.110 --> 00:02:52.210 him writing opinions. It was based on these kind 00:02:52.210 --> 00:02:55.370 of wild, often really awkward challenges he set 00:02:55.370 --> 00:02:58.409 for himself. Right. Participatory. Yeah. Establishing 00:02:58.409 --> 00:03:01.270 that pattern early, infiltrating things. Can 00:03:01.270 --> 00:03:02.909 you give an example? I remember reading about 00:03:02.909 --> 00:03:05.050 some of the crazier ones. Well, yeah, there was 00:03:05.050 --> 00:03:07.590 the time he managed to talk his way into a job 00:03:07.590 --> 00:03:11.169 at a major London law firm knowing absolutely 00:03:11.169 --> 00:03:14.569 nothing about law. No way. How? Just by adopting 00:03:14.569 --> 00:03:17.849 this like confident, maybe slightly unhinged 00:03:17.849 --> 00:03:20.610 persona. He was deliberately putting himself 00:03:20.610 --> 00:03:23.389 into these high pressure situations he was totally 00:03:23.389 --> 00:03:26.969 unqualified for. Just see what happened. Documenting 00:03:26.969 --> 00:03:29.919 the chaos. That sounds like pure Ronson. And 00:03:29.919 --> 00:03:33.780 that column, that highly personal style, it translated 00:03:33.780 --> 00:03:36.740 almost immediately to TV. There was that BBC 00:03:36.740 --> 00:03:40.120 Two series, The Ronson Mission, back in 93. Ah, 00:03:40.139 --> 00:03:42.860 yes. And his first book, Clubbed Class, followed 00:03:42.860 --> 00:03:45.680 right after 1994. That really put the style down 00:03:45.680 --> 00:03:47.719 in print. Clubbed Class. That's the one where 00:03:47.719 --> 00:03:49.939 he bluffs his way into the jet set life, isn't 00:03:49.939 --> 00:03:52.020 it? Trying to find the ultimate holiday. That's 00:03:52.020 --> 00:03:53.879 the one. It's fascinating because he wasn't rich 00:03:53.879 --> 00:03:55.840 or anything, but he convinced all these high 00:03:55.840 --> 00:03:58.639 society types that he belonged. The whole thing 00:03:58.639 --> 00:04:01.659 was an exercise in, well, deception, but rooted 00:04:01.659 --> 00:04:04.759 in genuine curiosity. So he's infiltrating this 00:04:04.759 --> 00:04:08.240 privileged world using a fake persona. It's exactly 00:04:08.240 --> 00:04:10.669 the template he uses later with, like... Cult 00:04:10.669 --> 00:04:14.050 leaders and extremists. Precisely. And this period 00:04:14.050 --> 00:04:16.129 really cemented him as a regular contributor 00:04:16.129 --> 00:04:18.829 everywhere. The Guardian, obviously, where his 00:04:18.829 --> 00:04:20.930 later columns about his home life and stuff became 00:04:20.930 --> 00:04:23.790 really popular. City life, time out again. So 00:04:23.790 --> 00:04:26.889 people started recognizing the how as much as 00:04:26.889 --> 00:04:29.769 the what. That slightly bemused, wide -eyed thing. 00:04:29.889 --> 00:04:32.329 Yeah, that was becoming his brand. Okay, let's 00:04:32.329 --> 00:04:35.269 dig into that methodology a bit more. The faux 00:04:35.269 --> 00:04:37.649 naif approach. You said it's not just a quirk, 00:04:37.649 --> 00:04:40.870 it's tactical. How does showing up looking slightly 00:04:40.870 --> 00:04:44.430 baffled actually help when you're talking to, 00:04:44.509 --> 00:04:47.550 say, a dangerous extremist? Well, it's the ultimate 00:04:47.550 --> 00:04:49.350 way to disarm someone, isn't it? If you march 00:04:49.350 --> 00:04:50.850 in like you already know they're completely nuts, 00:04:50.910 --> 00:04:53.329 they just clam up. Right. Defenses go up. Exactly. 00:04:53.370 --> 00:04:57.149 But Ronson comes in seeming genuinely bewildered, 00:04:57.149 --> 00:05:00.439 but also, crucially, Open to the possibility 00:05:00.439 --> 00:05:02.339 that they might have a point, he gives them the 00:05:02.339 --> 00:05:04.300 benefit of the doubt, at least initially. Ah, 00:05:04.360 --> 00:05:07.540 so they feel heard. Respected, even. Yeah. And 00:05:07.540 --> 00:05:10.160 that encourages them to really unpack their worldview, 00:05:10.420 --> 00:05:13.519 you know. And often in doing that, they reveal 00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:16.779 the vulnerabilities or the human motivations 00:05:16.779 --> 00:05:20.620 behind the extreme ideas. So his curiosity is 00:05:20.620 --> 00:05:22.899 like an invitation, not a weapon. He lets them 00:05:22.899 --> 00:05:26.439 lead him. Even down their own maybe illogical 00:05:26.439 --> 00:05:29.279 paths. Yeah. Until he sees the connection. Exactly. 00:05:29.279 --> 00:05:32.019 Until he's ready to link their little story to 00:05:32.019 --> 00:05:34.980 some bigger societal truth. Publishers Weekly 00:05:34.980 --> 00:05:37.040 really nailed this when they reviewed them. They 00:05:37.040 --> 00:05:38.959 said what's remarkable is how he reveals the 00:05:38.959 --> 00:05:41.839 all too real machinations of Western society's 00:05:41.839 --> 00:05:44.639 radical fringe. By not doing a hard -nosed expose. 00:05:44.899 --> 00:05:47.220 Right. It's more like a gentle skeptical unwrapping 00:05:47.220 --> 00:05:49.459 of the story from the inside. He gets people 00:05:49.459 --> 00:05:51.120 to kind of volunteer their own contradictions 00:05:51.120 --> 00:05:53.680 often without realizing it. Okay. So that investigated. 00:05:53.870 --> 00:05:56.089 template that brings us straight to book number 00:05:56.089 --> 00:05:58.970 two the really iconic one them adventures with 00:05:58.970 --> 00:06:01.470 extremists that was 2001 yeah this is where he 00:06:01.470 --> 00:06:03.550 properly cemented that reputation for diving 00:06:03.550 --> 00:06:05.269 into the ridiculous and finding it's secretly 00:06:05.269 --> 00:06:08.209 tied to something well shockingly serious the 00:06:08.209 --> 00:06:11.829 core quest of them He's trying to infiltrate 00:06:11.829 --> 00:06:14.269 the shadowy cabal, right? The one conspiracy 00:06:14.269 --> 00:06:17.009 theorists think rules the world. Pretty much. 00:06:17.050 --> 00:06:19.509 It reads like an adventure story, really. The 00:06:19.509 --> 00:06:21.930 conspiracy itself is almost the main character. 00:06:22.089 --> 00:06:24.550 And Ronson's like the detective following this 00:06:24.550 --> 00:06:27.050 trail that might lead absolutely nowhere. Or 00:06:27.050 --> 00:06:28.949 it might lead to a secret meeting in the woods 00:06:28.949 --> 00:06:31.410 somewhere. Or, yeah, like the Bilderberg group 00:06:31.410 --> 00:06:33.970 meeting. And the people he actually met for that 00:06:33.970 --> 00:06:37.300 book. I mean, the list is just staggering. It's 00:06:37.300 --> 00:06:39.759 the whole spectrum of fringe paranoia. People 00:06:39.759 --> 00:06:43.639 who exist way outside polite society, but sometimes 00:06:43.639 --> 00:06:45.860 have a very real influence. Who are we talking 00:06:45.860 --> 00:06:47.879 about specifically? Well, there's David Icke. 00:06:48.019 --> 00:06:51.180 Ah, the lizard guy. The lizard guy, yeah. But 00:06:51.180 --> 00:06:54.339 Ronson treats him not just as, you know, crazy, 00:06:54.420 --> 00:06:56.600 but as this fascinating figure trying to piece 00:06:56.600 --> 00:06:58.720 together these incredibly complex, elaborate 00:06:58.720 --> 00:07:01.939 ideas. Then there was Randy Weaver. From Ruby 00:07:01.939 --> 00:07:03.839 Ridge? Yeah, the white separatist from the Ruby 00:07:03.839 --> 00:07:07.100 Ridge standoff. He met Omar Bakri Mohammed, the 00:07:07.100 --> 00:07:09.879 militant Islamist preacher. Ian Paisley, the 00:07:09.879 --> 00:07:12.699 controversial Northern Irish politician. And 00:07:12.699 --> 00:07:14.620 didn't he meet Alex Jones way back then, too? 00:07:14.990 --> 00:07:16.870 He did. That's a really relevant detail now, 00:07:16.949 --> 00:07:19.709 isn't it? He interviewed Alex Jones and Thomas 00:07:19.709 --> 00:07:22.610 Robb from the Ku Klux Klan. This was when Jones 00:07:22.610 --> 00:07:25.829 was genuinely a fringe figure, like literally 00:07:25.829 --> 00:07:28.269 shouting with a bullhorn outside Bilderberg meetings. 00:07:28.470 --> 00:07:31.889 Wow. So Ronson was there. documenting the seed 00:07:31.889 --> 00:07:34.550 of that movement. Absolutely. He describes following 00:07:34.550 --> 00:07:36.670 these independent investigators who were obsessed 00:07:36.670 --> 00:07:39.389 with groups like Bilderberg. He captures their, 00:07:39.449 --> 00:07:41.949 you know, desperate intensity, but also points 00:07:41.949 --> 00:07:44.290 out how sometimes, surprisingly, they get kind 00:07:44.290 --> 00:07:47.029 of close to these hidden power structures. So 00:07:47.029 --> 00:07:49.509 when he met Jones, Jones was basically a street 00:07:49.509 --> 00:07:52.470 activist. Yeah, pretty much. And Ronson's narrative 00:07:52.470 --> 00:07:54.589 really captured that foundational psychology, 00:07:55.029 --> 00:07:56.910 the thing that would later make Jones such a 00:07:56.910 --> 00:07:59.829 huge and often, let's face it, dangerous figure 00:07:59.829 --> 00:08:03.769 in american media louis theroux who kind of fishes 00:08:03.769 --> 00:08:06.629 in similar waters journalism wise he called them 00:08:06.629 --> 00:08:09.629 a funny and compulsively readable picaresque 00:08:09.629 --> 00:08:12.089 adventure that sums it up perfectly it's funny 00:08:12.089 --> 00:08:14.110 because it's so absurd until you suddenly realize 00:08:14.110 --> 00:08:16.829 the depth of belief and the real world sometimes 00:08:16.829 --> 00:08:19.329 violent connections these people have and the 00:08:19.329 --> 00:08:22.410 book clearly hit a nerve Universal bought the 00:08:22.410 --> 00:08:25.529 film rights back in 2005. Yeah, which shows how 00:08:25.529 --> 00:08:28.170 marketable his whole blend of the bizarre and 00:08:28.170 --> 00:08:30.689 the serious had become, even if, ironically, 00:08:30.910 --> 00:08:33.610 other books got adapted first. Right. But Ronson 00:08:33.610 --> 00:08:36.409 didn't just stick with civilian conspiracy theorists, 00:08:36.429 --> 00:08:38.970 did he? He found out... The government was doing 00:08:38.970 --> 00:08:41.429 stuff that sounded just as weird. Well, exactly. 00:08:41.610 --> 00:08:44.029 That leads straight into his next big project, 00:08:44.210 --> 00:08:46.769 his third book, The Men Who Stare at Goats, from 00:08:46.769 --> 00:08:50.330 2004. This one shifts gears completely. He goes 00:08:50.330 --> 00:08:54.409 from citizen extremists right into the inner 00:08:54.409 --> 00:08:56.990 workings of the shadow military. The First Earth 00:08:56.990 --> 00:08:59.750 Battalion. Specifically, yeah. A secret New Age 00:08:59.750 --> 00:09:02.450 unit inside the U .S. Army called the First Earth 00:09:02.450 --> 00:09:04.590 Battalion. Okay, the military doing New Age stuff. 00:09:04.669 --> 00:09:06.370 That sounds like parody, but it was real. Oh, 00:09:06.370 --> 00:09:08.720 totally real. Ronson documents how the U .S. 00:09:08.720 --> 00:09:11.059 military was seriously looking into psychic warfare, 00:09:11.460 --> 00:09:14.440 remote viewing, you know, enhancing human potential. 00:09:14.500 --> 00:09:18.159 He connects the dots between, like, 70s hippie 00:09:18.159 --> 00:09:21.360 optimism and actual classified military budgets. 00:09:21.679 --> 00:09:23.620 It's the specifics that make it so memorable, 00:09:23.779 --> 00:09:27.240 though. Stubblebine. Major General Albert Stubblebine 00:09:27.240 --> 00:09:30.299 III. former head of intelligence and this guy 00:09:30.299 --> 00:09:33.539 genuinely believed with enough mental focus he 00:09:33.539 --> 00:09:37.179 could walk through walls seriously yeah ronson 00:09:37.179 --> 00:09:39.620 even details his attempts apparently they often 00:09:39.620 --> 00:09:41.659 ended with him just well running into the wall 00:09:41.659 --> 00:09:45.070 and getting bruised oh my god and the goats The 00:09:45.070 --> 00:09:47.330 actual staring at goats part. Right. The title 00:09:47.330 --> 00:09:49.970 image. The idea was that soldiers could be trained 00:09:49.970 --> 00:09:52.470 to kill goats just by staring at them, stopping 00:09:52.470 --> 00:09:54.769 their hearts with mental energy. Which is, I 00:09:54.769 --> 00:09:57.350 mean, it's a ridiculous image. It is. But it 00:09:57.350 --> 00:09:59.509 highlights the kind of desperate lengths the 00:09:59.509 --> 00:10:01.970 military was exploring, especially after Vietnam, 00:10:02.289 --> 00:10:05.330 trying to find new edges, non -lethal psychological 00:10:05.330 --> 00:10:07.889 weapons, that kind of thing. And this all came 00:10:07.889 --> 00:10:10.830 from one guy's manual. Pretty much inspired by 00:10:10.830 --> 00:10:13.429 Elting Curl Jim Channon. He wrote the first Earth 00:10:13.429 --> 00:10:16.710 Battalion operations manual back in 79. He was 00:10:16.710 --> 00:10:19.070 heavily into the whole human potential movement 00:10:19.070 --> 00:10:21.389 coming out of California. It wasn't a standard 00:10:21.389 --> 00:10:23.850 military text. Not at all. It talked about an 00:10:23.850 --> 00:10:26.450 army of warrior monks using peace and psychic 00:10:26.450 --> 00:10:28.990 stuff before actually fighting. Okay, but here's 00:10:28.990 --> 00:10:31.570 the crucial bit, right? The connection to something 00:10:31.570 --> 00:10:35.590 serious. Ronson suggests these New Age ideas 00:10:35.590 --> 00:10:38.730 somehow influenced interrogation techniques later 00:10:38.730 --> 00:10:41.700 on. Like at Guantanamo. That's the broader implication. 00:10:41.779 --> 00:10:44.779 Yeah. He suggests that the focus on psychological 00:10:44.779 --> 00:10:48.460 manipulation, isolation, sensory stuff, that 00:10:48.460 --> 00:10:50.240 some of those concepts, which started out in 00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:53.840 this weird new age military context, later mutated 00:10:53.840 --> 00:10:56.059 and perhaps informed some of the darker techniques 00:10:56.059 --> 00:10:58.620 used in the war on terror. That feels like the 00:10:58.620 --> 00:11:01.299 classic Ronson move. Find the eccentric belief 00:11:01.299 --> 00:11:03.700 from decades ago. Trace it through the system. 00:11:03.860 --> 00:11:06.000 And show how it eventually manifests as this 00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:09.370 dark systemic policy. He shows you the human 00:11:09.370 --> 00:11:12.129 chain of command that allows a wacky idea about 00:11:12.129 --> 00:11:15.450 psychic spies to become, well, weaponized. Exactly. 00:11:15.490 --> 00:11:17.710 He finds the three line. Now, the film adaptation 00:11:17.710 --> 00:11:21.049 in 2009, that took some liberties, didn't it? 00:11:21.289 --> 00:11:23.590 Made it more of an Iraq road trip movie. Yeah, 00:11:23.669 --> 00:11:25.710 it fictionalizes investigation quite a bit. The 00:11:25.710 --> 00:11:27.570 main journalist character, Bob Wilton, played 00:11:27.570 --> 00:11:29.669 by Ewan McGregor, who's American, and he actually 00:11:29.669 --> 00:11:31.929 went to Iraq in the film. Whereas Ronson's actual 00:11:31.929 --> 00:11:34.519 reporting was more, sitting in archives. Pretty 00:11:34.519 --> 00:11:36.679 much. He talked about this on the DVD commentary, 00:11:36.879 --> 00:11:39.919 apparently. The difference between his real work, 00:11:40.080 --> 00:11:43.200 often awkward, sitting in dusky archives or labs, 00:11:43.340 --> 00:11:46.440 and the Hollywood version of the cool, adventurous 00:11:46.440 --> 00:11:49.500 journalist. Okay, so from Military Secrets and 00:11:49.500 --> 00:11:52.399 Extremists, Ronson then pivots again. He looks 00:11:52.399 --> 00:11:56.259 inward towards, uh... clinical mysteries with 00:11:56.259 --> 00:11:58.899 The Psychopath Test. Yeah, his fifth book, The 00:11:58.899 --> 00:12:01.320 Psychopath Test, A Journey Through the Madness 00:12:01.320 --> 00:12:04.679 Industry from 2011. This was a really profound 00:12:04.679 --> 00:12:07.620 shift looking into mental illness and how we 00:12:07.620 --> 00:12:09.940 classify behavior. And for this one, he basically 00:12:09.940 --> 00:12:11.840 had to become a student of psychology himself, 00:12:12.120 --> 00:12:14.600 right? Learning the hair psychopathy checklist. 00:12:14.879 --> 00:12:17.139 He did. He learned how to actually apply the 00:12:17.139 --> 00:12:18.840 hair psychopath checklist, which is, you know, 00:12:18.840 --> 00:12:21.139 the gold standard diagnostic tool created by 00:12:21.139 --> 00:12:22.720 Dr. Robert Hare. And then he just went out and 00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:24.960 used it. Pretty much. He interviews people across 00:12:24.960 --> 00:12:27.460 this huge spectrum. He goes into facilities for 00:12:27.460 --> 00:12:30.200 the criminally insane where you'd sort of expect 00:12:30.200 --> 00:12:32.679 to find a clinical psychopath. But then he also 00:12:32.679 --> 00:12:36.460 uses the checklist to investigate potential psychopaths 00:12:36.460 --> 00:12:39.220 in corporate boardrooms among powerful figures. 00:12:39.440 --> 00:12:42.200 Yeah. Exploring that whole idea of the successful 00:12:42.200 --> 00:12:45.240 psychopath. The idea that the same traits that 00:12:45.240 --> 00:12:47.919 land one person in jail, like glibness, charm, 00:12:48.220 --> 00:12:51.039 no empathy, being manipulative. Yeah. Are the 00:12:51.039 --> 00:12:53.519 exact same traits that help someone else. Climb 00:12:53.519 --> 00:12:55.779 the corporate ladder or get elected. Exactly. 00:12:56.000 --> 00:12:59.179 That contrast is the core of the book. The hair 00:12:59.179 --> 00:13:02.320 checklist, the PCLR, it scores about 20 items. 00:13:02.879 --> 00:13:05.500 Pathological lying, lack of remorse, callousness, 00:13:05.580 --> 00:13:08.200 stuff like that. Ronson's journey is about what 00:13:08.200 --> 00:13:10.799 happens when you, the observer, start seeing 00:13:10.799 --> 00:13:12.940 the world through that specific lens. The world 00:13:12.940 --> 00:13:15.039 starts to look full of psychopaths. Kind of, 00:13:15.039 --> 00:13:18.159 yeah. But this is where his approach, that popular 00:13:18.159 --> 00:13:20.779 story -driven investigation, really slammed into 00:13:20.779 --> 00:13:23.210 a wall with the scientific establishment. We 00:13:23.210 --> 00:13:24.490 have to talk about the controversy. Yeah, this 00:13:24.490 --> 00:13:26.870 was a big one. It really was. This is where that 00:13:26.870 --> 00:13:29.389 tension between Ronson's style and proper scientific 00:13:29.389 --> 00:13:32.750 rigor just blew up. The Society for the Scientific 00:13:32.750 --> 00:13:35.830 Study of Psychopathy formally rejected his findings, 00:13:35.950 --> 00:13:38.350 or rather, his application of the tool. They 00:13:38.350 --> 00:13:41.149 felt he was, like, trivializing the whole diagnostic 00:13:41.149 --> 00:13:43.809 process. And Dr. Hare himself wasn't happy either. 00:13:43.929 --> 00:13:46.850 The guy who made the test. Not at all. He publicly 00:13:46.850 --> 00:13:49.590 rejected the book, called it frivolous, shallow, 00:13:49.690 --> 00:13:52.250 and professionally disconcerting. That's not 00:13:52.250 --> 00:13:54.809 just a mild disagreement. That's a pretty damning 00:13:54.809 --> 00:13:57.830 critique from the creator of the very tool Ronson 00:13:57.830 --> 00:14:00.490 was using. Okay, so that raises a serious question, 00:14:00.629 --> 00:14:03.029 doesn't it? If the creator of the test called 00:14:03.029 --> 00:14:05.830 it frivolous, does that mean Ronson's technique, 00:14:06.070 --> 00:14:08.710 while super engaging to read, sacrifices real 00:14:08.710 --> 00:14:12.519 rigor just to tell a good story? Is he sensationalizing 00:14:12.519 --> 00:14:14.720 mental illness? It's a really fair challenge. 00:14:14.940 --> 00:14:16.299 I mean, Ronson's definitely not a clinician, 00:14:16.460 --> 00:14:19.059 but maybe, maybe the value wasn't in him perfectly 00:14:19.059 --> 00:14:21.080 applying the diagnostic tool. Maybe he was more 00:14:21.080 --> 00:14:23.399 about exploring the story of classification itself. 00:14:23.759 --> 00:14:26.720 The whole madness industry, as the subtitle says. 00:14:27.159 --> 00:14:29.220 Ah, so he's looking at how the labels get used 00:14:29.220 --> 00:14:32.480 and who benefits. Less about the clinical accuracy, 00:14:32.720 --> 00:14:35.860 more about the social function. Perhaps. He forces 00:14:35.860 --> 00:14:37.820 you to think about how these labels are applied 00:14:37.820 --> 00:14:40.559 and the blurry line between, say, a clinical 00:14:40.559 --> 00:14:43.360 disorder and just being a truly awful boss. He 00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:45.539 kind of challenged the neat separation between 00:14:45.539 --> 00:14:48.759 the sane world and the insane one. OK, focusing 00:14:48.759 --> 00:14:51.000 on the industry around madness, not just the 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:53.720 madness itself. That makes sense as a distinction. 00:14:53.980 --> 00:14:56.600 It's a useful way to frame it, I think. So moving 00:14:56.600 --> 00:15:00.000 on a few years, Ronson takes that same eye for 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:03.179 maybe societal cruelty and points it right at 00:15:03.179 --> 00:15:06.139 us right now. So you've been publicly shamed 00:15:06.139 --> 00:15:08.600 in 2015. Yeah, this was another major pivot. 00:15:08.679 --> 00:15:11.419 He moves away from the extreme fringe, you know, 00:15:11.419 --> 00:15:13.220 the extremists, the psychic soldiers, and looks 00:15:13.220 --> 00:15:15.620 smack bang into the middle of modern digital 00:15:15.620 --> 00:15:18.120 life, social dynamics. The focus here is just 00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:20.059 the devastating effect of public humiliation 00:15:20.059 --> 00:15:22.419 online, right? Exactly. The mechanism of it in 00:15:22.419 --> 00:15:24.659 the Internet age. For you listening, this book 00:15:24.659 --> 00:15:27.299 is arguably his most directly relevant to life 00:15:27.299 --> 00:15:30.019 today. It's a masterclass in understanding current 00:15:30.019 --> 00:15:33.039 affairs, social media dynamics. He looks at specific 00:15:33.039 --> 00:15:37.899 people whose lives were just ruined, right? By 00:15:37.899 --> 00:15:41.299 a single tweet, maybe a bad joke that went viral. 00:15:41.419 --> 00:15:44.659 Yeah, precisely. He documents the sheer cruelty 00:15:44.659 --> 00:15:48.220 of the anonymous online mob. How quickly the 00:15:48.220 --> 00:15:51.000 internet goes from collective outrage to just 00:15:51.000 --> 00:15:53.639 forgetting, leaving the person completely stranded, 00:15:53.940 --> 00:15:56.879 often with irreparable damage, lost jobs, homes, 00:15:56.960 --> 00:15:59.100 relationships. Over something that maybe didn't 00:15:59.100 --> 00:16:00.820 even warrant that level of punishment. Often, 00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:03.519 yeah. And the common thread, connecting this 00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:06.100 back to his earlier work, it's still there. It's 00:16:06.100 --> 00:16:08.320 still an investigation into unexpected power 00:16:08.320 --> 00:16:10.720 structures. But here, the power structure is 00:16:10.720 --> 00:16:13.139 that collective, anonymous, overwhelming force 00:16:13.139 --> 00:16:16.120 of the internet mob. Which acts with this frighteningly 00:16:16.120 --> 00:16:18.179 unified certainty. Kind of like the extremists 00:16:18.179 --> 00:16:19.940 he wrote about earlier. It's a similar kind of 00:16:19.940 --> 00:16:21.899 self -righteous certainty, definitely. We should 00:16:21.899 --> 00:16:23.519 probably quickly mention his collections too, 00:16:23.620 --> 00:16:25.220 right? The Guardian column. Oh yeah, definitely. 00:16:25.360 --> 00:16:27.379 They show a lighter side. Out of the ordinary. 00:16:27.860 --> 00:16:31.100 True tales of everyday craziness from 2006 and... 00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:34.100 What I Do. More true tales of everyday craziness 00:16:34.100 --> 00:16:36.740 in 2007. Lots of funny observations about his 00:16:36.740 --> 00:16:39.320 own domestic life in those. And Lost at Sea. 00:16:39.480 --> 00:16:41.840 The John Ronson Mysteries in 2012 was another 00:16:41.840 --> 00:16:44.120 collection. Yeah, another compilation. It just 00:16:44.120 --> 00:16:46.480 shows the sheer volume of writing he was doing, 00:16:46.519 --> 00:16:49.159 even outside the big book projects. So if the 00:16:49.159 --> 00:16:52.220 books define his subjects, maybe his radio and 00:16:52.220 --> 00:16:55.100 film work define his voice and reach. He seems 00:16:55.100 --> 00:16:58.200 like a real media polymath. Absolutely. His U 00:16:58.200 --> 00:17:02.019 .K. radio career was huge. That BBC Radio 4 program 00:17:02.019 --> 00:17:04.440 John Ronson on that was really well respected, 00:17:04.660 --> 00:17:08.019 nominated for a Sony Award four times. It showed 00:17:08.019 --> 00:17:10.380 he could translate that written curiosity perfectly 00:17:10.380 --> 00:17:13.099 into audio. And the documentaries mirrored the 00:17:13.099 --> 00:17:14.880 books. I remember one with Robbie Williams. Yeah. 00:17:14.960 --> 00:17:17.019 Robbie Williams and John Ronson journey to the 00:17:17.019 --> 00:17:20.259 other side from 2008, focused on Robbie's like 00:17:20.259 --> 00:17:23.000 genuine obsession with UFOs and the paranormal. 00:17:23.660 --> 00:17:26.160 Ronson's brilliant at pairing a famous scene. 00:17:28.160 --> 00:17:31.019 And that success translated to the U .S. too. 00:17:31.420 --> 00:17:33.519 this American life. Oh, big time. He became a 00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:35.420 really influential contributor over there. I 00:17:35.420 --> 00:17:37.759 think by 2021, he'd done segments for at least 00:17:37.759 --> 00:17:40.559 13 episodes, bringing his style to millions of 00:17:40.559 --> 00:17:43.039 American listeners. And those segments were often 00:17:43.039 --> 00:17:45.279 like mini versions of his books, weren't they? 00:17:45.619 --> 00:17:48.119 Condensed emotional takes on the big investigation. 00:17:48.420 --> 00:17:51.819 Exactly. Episodes like Them, The Psychopath Test, 00:17:52.059 --> 00:17:53.920 Tard and Feathered. They showed he could take 00:17:53.920 --> 00:17:56.440 these complex, often ethically tricky subjects 00:17:56.440 --> 00:17:59.079 and boil them down into compelling audio stories. 00:17:59.339 --> 00:18:01.410 Perfect for that narrative. audio boom. Which 00:18:01.410 --> 00:18:04.049 leads naturally into podcasting. Yep. His first 00:18:04.049 --> 00:18:07.210 big one was the butterfly effect in 2017. That 00:18:07.210 --> 00:18:10.210 was about internet porn, focusing on Fabian Thillman 00:18:10.210 --> 00:18:12.349 and the whole porn hub effect on the industry. 00:18:12.490 --> 00:18:15.750 Again, huge topic anchored by one human story. 00:18:16.029 --> 00:18:19.250 Then the last days of August in 2019, looking 00:18:19.250 --> 00:18:21.809 into the death of August Ames, that felt more 00:18:21.809 --> 00:18:23.710 like true crime. It was definitely investigative. 00:18:23.910 --> 00:18:26.490 Yeah. Looking at the human cost within that industry. 00:18:26.690 --> 00:18:28.799 And more recently. Back with the BBC for Things 00:18:28.799 --> 00:18:31.619 Fell Apart. Yeah, 2021. A BBC Sounds podcast 00:18:31.619 --> 00:18:33.940 digging into the origins of the culture wars. 00:18:34.420 --> 00:18:36.720 Classic Ronson style, again, not just analyzing 00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:39.440 the current mess, but finding the quirky human 00:18:39.440 --> 00:18:42.599 roots of these huge societal divides. Okay, beyond 00:18:42.599 --> 00:18:44.720 audio, the film stuff gives another angle. We 00:18:44.720 --> 00:18:46.799 mentioned Goats, but he actually wrote screenplays 00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:49.740 too. He did. Selling the Goats rights led to 00:18:49.740 --> 00:18:52.160 the 2009 film, but apparently visiting the set 00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:54.619 of that film is what sparked him to collaborate 00:18:54.619 --> 00:18:56.839 with Peter Strone on writing something else. 00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:00.519 Which became Frank, the 2014 black comedy. That's 00:19:00.519 --> 00:19:02.900 the one. A masterpiece of weirdness. And it's 00:19:02.900 --> 00:19:05.619 partly inspired by Ronson's own life. His time 00:19:05.619 --> 00:19:07.660 playing keyboards in the Frank Sidebottom band 00:19:07.660 --> 00:19:10.200 back in the late 80s. Wait, Frank Sidebottom? 00:19:10.490 --> 00:19:13.190 The guy with the giant papier -mâché head. The 00:19:13.190 --> 00:19:16.109 very same. Ronson was right there, immersed in 00:19:16.109 --> 00:19:19.390 that high -level artistic eccentricity way early 00:19:19.390 --> 00:19:22.190 on. Apparently, he replaced Mark Radcliffe on 00:19:22.190 --> 00:19:25.269 keyboards. No way. So his comfort with strangeness 00:19:25.269 --> 00:19:27.390 isn't just journalistic, it's rooted in experience. 00:19:27.769 --> 00:19:30.069 Seems like it. And that film work led to more 00:19:30.069 --> 00:19:32.549 collaborations, too. He co -wrote the screenplay 00:19:32.549 --> 00:19:35.369 for Ocha, the Netflix film, with Bom Joon -ho. 00:19:35.569 --> 00:19:38.769 The Korean director. Wow. Yeah, the 2017 one. 00:19:39.880 --> 00:19:42.079 We shouldn't forget his own documentary series 00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:44.119 work, stuff that often came before the books, 00:19:44.259 --> 00:19:47.220 The Secret Rulers of the World in 2001 and Crazy 00:19:47.220 --> 00:19:49.720 Rulers of the World in 2004. Crazy Rulers. It 00:19:49.720 --> 00:19:52.440 had the goat stuff in it, right? Exactly. It 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:54.619 included the three parts directly related to 00:19:54.619 --> 00:19:57.480 the goats research, the title episode, Funny 00:19:57.480 --> 00:20:00.519 Torture, and the psychic foot soldiers. It shows 00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:02.380 how he constantly feeds his research between 00:20:02.380 --> 00:20:06.359 books, TV, radio. It's a whole ecosystem. And 00:20:06.359 --> 00:20:08.579 just looping back to music. Quickly, besides 00:20:08.579 --> 00:20:11.579 Frank Sidebottom, he managed an indie band, too. 00:20:11.799 --> 00:20:14.460 Yeah, The Man from Del Monte, a Manchester indie 00:20:14.460 --> 00:20:17.099 band. That whole background in indie culture, 00:20:17.259 --> 00:20:19.460 the Manchester scene, it probably informs his 00:20:19.460 --> 00:20:21.299 comfort zone when he's dealing with all kinds 00:20:21.299 --> 00:20:23.460 of eccentric people, whether they're artists 00:20:23.460 --> 00:20:26.279 or generals. Okay, so before we wrap up with 00:20:26.279 --> 00:20:28.640 takeaways, maybe a few personal details, just 00:20:28.640 --> 00:20:30.359 to place the man behind the microphone. Sure. 00:20:30.460 --> 00:20:32.039 Well, he's married to Elaine Patterson. They've 00:20:32.039 --> 00:20:34.960 got one son. And his home life often pops up 00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:37.240 in those Charming Guardian columns. And his background. 00:20:37.289 --> 00:20:40.049 Jewish. Yeah. Humanist. Yeah, he's Jewish and 00:20:40.049 --> 00:20:42.930 also a distinguished supporter of Humanist UK. 00:20:43.069 --> 00:20:45.890 So there's a commitment to secular ethics there, 00:20:45.970 --> 00:20:48.210 which maybe helps his impartiality when he's 00:20:48.210 --> 00:20:50.609 dealing with really ideological subjects. And 00:20:50.609 --> 00:20:53.049 for the sports fans listening. He's a big Arsenal 00:20:53.049 --> 00:20:56.369 fan, apparently expresses adoration for the club, 00:20:56.490 --> 00:20:59.029 which feels like a surprisingly normal detail 00:20:59.029 --> 00:21:01.150 for someone who hangs out with lizard theorists. 00:21:01.230 --> 00:21:04.009 Ah, true. And he's officially American now, too. 00:21:04.150 --> 00:21:06.529 Yeah, became a naturalized U .S. citizen in early 00:21:06.529 --> 00:21:09.769 2020. So British American journalist fits perfectly, 00:21:09.970 --> 00:21:11.789 gives him perspective on both sides of the pond, 00:21:11.829 --> 00:21:14.150 maybe. So if we try and synthesize all this work 00:21:14.150 --> 00:21:17.609 from club class in 94, bluffing his way into 00:21:17.609 --> 00:21:20.269 high society, right up to the Culture Wars podcasts, 00:21:20.730 --> 00:21:23.089 there's a real consistency there, isn't there? 00:21:23.150 --> 00:21:25.430 It's all about access. Yeah, that's his core 00:21:25.430 --> 00:21:28.869 skill, making these dense, extreme or just hidden 00:21:28.869 --> 00:21:31.549 subcultures somehow accessible to the average 00:21:31.549 --> 00:21:33.809 person, finding a way into the locked rooms, 00:21:33.990 --> 00:21:36.069 whether they contain conspiracy nuts, psychic 00:21:36.069 --> 00:21:39.390 spies or, you know, debates about clinical madness. 00:21:39.769 --> 00:21:41.470 And the common thread running through all of 00:21:41.470 --> 00:21:44.250 it. The cabals, the shame machine, the military 00:21:44.250 --> 00:21:46.109 secrets, it seems to be finding the humanity, 00:21:46.250 --> 00:21:48.950 right? The unexpected vulnerable connections 00:21:48.950 --> 00:21:52.289 inside these topics that seem monstrous or just 00:21:52.289 --> 00:21:55.450 plain crazy. Definitely. He's always looking 00:21:55.450 --> 00:21:57.569 for the real people behind the scary headlines 00:21:57.569 --> 00:22:00.869 and crucially, how they justify their own actions 00:22:00.869 --> 00:22:03.730 and beliefs to themselves. It feels like Ronson's 00:22:03.730 --> 00:22:06.170 telling us the world isn't neatly divided into 00:22:06.170 --> 00:22:09.869 sane and insane or normal and extremist. Right. 00:22:10.009 --> 00:22:12.089 More like we're all on a spectrum somewhere. 00:22:12.269 --> 00:22:14.150 And maybe the only difference sometimes is how 00:22:14.150 --> 00:22:16.289 much power you have or how big your audience 00:22:16.289 --> 00:22:19.190 is. OK, so let's wrap this up. What does all 00:22:19.190 --> 00:22:21.369 this mean for you, the listener, trying to get 00:22:21.369 --> 00:22:24.730 a handle on Ronson's huge body of work? It feels 00:22:24.730 --> 00:22:27.069 like his career offers a really powerful model 00:22:27.069 --> 00:22:29.170 for investigating things, doesn't it? Absolutely. 00:22:29.230 --> 00:22:31.250 If you connect it to the bigger picture, his 00:22:31.250 --> 00:22:33.289 whole career just shows the incredible power 00:22:33.289 --> 00:22:36.569 of curiosity over, say, narrow specialization. 00:22:36.970 --> 00:22:40.049 He reports on the extraordinary by appearing 00:22:40.049 --> 00:22:42.630 ordinary. He's the reliable guide through the 00:22:42.630 --> 00:22:45.750 noise. Exactly. Through overwhelming, often contradictory 00:22:45.750 --> 00:22:48.509 information. He doesn't need to be the expert 00:22:48.509 --> 00:22:51.170 on psychopathy or military strategy to tell the 00:22:51.170 --> 00:22:53.430 essential human story of the people defined by 00:22:53.430 --> 00:22:56.250 those things. He gives us the story of how people 00:22:56.250 --> 00:22:58.750 convince themselves of impossible. things or 00:22:58.750 --> 00:23:01.609 why we reacted to online shame with such cruelty. 00:23:01.950 --> 00:23:04.349 He makes us look in the mirror, whether we think 00:23:04.349 --> 00:23:07.049 we're normal or fringe. And that duality, the 00:23:07.049 --> 00:23:09.309 skeptic journalist wearing the mask of the curious 00:23:09.309 --> 00:23:12.130 novice, that's his signature move. It maximizes 00:23:12.130 --> 00:23:15.329 his access, minimizes confrontation. It's a really 00:23:15.329 --> 00:23:17.589 delicate dance. A dance between staying objective 00:23:17.589 --> 00:23:20.410 and making a real human connection. Yeah. So 00:23:20.410 --> 00:23:23.289 Ronson's career, it's shown us the vulnerable. 00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:26.579 Often just deeply eccentric people behind the 00:23:26.579 --> 00:23:28.920 big scary headlines about extremism, madness, 00:23:29.160 --> 00:23:31.880 secret military stuff. For you, the listener, 00:23:31.940 --> 00:23:33.480 maybe the question we leave you with is this. 00:23:33.900 --> 00:23:36.839 If that faux naïve approach. really is the key 00:23:36.839 --> 00:23:39.279 to getting these complex characters to open up, 00:23:39.279 --> 00:23:41.960 to reveal their hidden worlds. How much of our 00:23:41.960 --> 00:23:44.519 own skepticism, our own sort of protective cynicism, 00:23:44.519 --> 00:23:46.779 do we need to maybe just temporarily suspend 00:23:46.779 --> 00:23:49.599 in order to really understand the world's most 00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:52.660 hidden, most contradictory corners? That is definitely 00:23:52.660 --> 00:23:54.500 a thought worth thinking about next time you 00:23:54.500 --> 00:23:56.299 read a story that just seems too strange to be 00:23:56.299 --> 00:23:58.240 true. Thanks for joining us for this deep dive. 00:23:58.500 --> 00:23:59.500 We'll see you next time.