WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.540 Welcome back to the Deep Dive. Today, we are 00:00:02.540 --> 00:00:06.580 strapping ourselves into maybe the fastest, certainly 00:00:06.580 --> 00:00:09.859 the noisiest hot rod Detroit ever produced. We're 00:00:09.859 --> 00:00:12.179 speeding back to the late 60s. Yeah, back to 00:00:12.179 --> 00:00:15.740 examine a band whose existence was just so explosive, 00:00:15.820 --> 00:00:17.579 they basically burned themselves out in what, 00:00:17.640 --> 00:00:20.219 three short years? Exactly. But their sound, 00:00:20.320 --> 00:00:22.920 I mean, it still echoes, right? Distorted and 00:00:22.920 --> 00:00:25.420 loud in pretty much every garage and punk riff 00:00:25.420 --> 00:00:27.920 you hear today. Absolutely. We are talking, of 00:00:27.920 --> 00:00:31.870 course, about The Motor City Five. The MC5. That's 00:00:31.870 --> 00:00:34.590 right. And when you asked us to unpack the history 00:00:34.590 --> 00:00:37.009 of the MC5, you weren't just asking about, you 00:00:37.009 --> 00:00:39.530 know, a band. No, not at all. It's like asking 00:00:39.530 --> 00:00:41.810 for the origin story of protest rock, of hard 00:00:41.810 --> 00:00:44.530 rock, even punk itself. It's all there, wrapped 00:00:44.530 --> 00:00:46.869 up in one really volatile package. They're pretty 00:00:46.869 --> 00:00:49.289 much unanimously cited as pioneers. Proto -punk, 00:00:49.469 --> 00:00:52.119 garage rock. And that blend, that incredible 00:00:52.119 --> 00:00:54.340 blend of radical leftist politics with just the 00:00:54.340 --> 00:00:57.460 most unbelievably urgent explosive sound. Yeah, 00:00:57.520 --> 00:00:59.960 it's quite the mix. So the goal of our deep dive 00:00:59.960 --> 00:01:03.740 today is really to untangle this paradox, isn't 00:01:03.740 --> 00:01:06.849 it? We need to trace their journey. Right from 00:01:06.849 --> 00:01:09.709 the start in Lincoln Park, Michigan, through 00:01:09.709 --> 00:01:13.129 that controversial kind of anarchic peak, their 00:01:13.129 --> 00:01:15.370 almost immediate commercial collapse. Which is 00:01:15.370 --> 00:01:18.209 spectacular. It really was. And then the long, 00:01:18.209 --> 00:01:21.530 really fascinating legacy that was dominated, 00:01:21.769 --> 00:01:23.950 I think it's fair to say, by the spiritual and 00:01:23.950 --> 00:01:26.510 musical engine of the band, Wayne Kramer. Definitely 00:01:26.510 --> 00:01:29.189 Kramer. And that legacy, well, it only reached 00:01:29.189 --> 00:01:31.969 its absolute final, really heart -wrenching chapter 00:01:31.969 --> 00:01:35.129 just this year, 2024. It's a compelling story, 00:01:35.329 --> 00:01:37.390 but also... Also, yeah, tragic. We're focusing 00:01:37.390 --> 00:01:39.849 on that classic lineup. Rob Tyner on vocals. 00:01:40.189 --> 00:01:42.909 Undistakable voice. The revolutionary dual guitar 00:01:42.909 --> 00:01:45.069 attack, you have to call it that, of Wayne Kramer 00:01:45.069 --> 00:01:47.250 and Fred Sonic Smith. Sonic, yeah, what a pair. 00:01:47.450 --> 00:01:49.489 Michael Davis holding down that frantic bottom 00:01:49.489 --> 00:01:51.730 end on bass and Dennis Thompson just pounding 00:01:51.730 --> 00:01:54.209 away on the drums. The classic five. Motor City 00:01:54.209 --> 00:01:56.829 Five. So here's the tension, the thing that grabs 00:01:56.829 --> 00:02:00.319 you right away. How does a band that was so universally 00:02:00.319 --> 00:02:03.219 praised. I mean they landed on the cover of Rolling 00:02:03.219 --> 00:02:06.359 Stone in January 69 before their debut album 00:02:06.359 --> 00:02:08.319 even dropped. Which is unheard of then. Usually 00:02:08.319 --> 00:02:11.719 reserved for like established megastars. Dylan. 00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:15.639 The Beatles. Right. So how does that band implode 00:02:15.639 --> 00:02:19.639 so spectacularly. Dropped by two labels disbanded 00:02:19.639 --> 00:02:23.300 completely by 72. It just seems. Well, I think 00:02:23.300 --> 00:02:25.379 it speaks to the sheer incompatibility, doesn't 00:02:25.379 --> 00:02:28.479 it? Their radical politics, their completely 00:02:28.479 --> 00:02:31.620 uncompromising musical vision. Yeah. It just 00:02:31.620 --> 00:02:33.419 didn't mesh with the commercial music industry 00:02:33.419 --> 00:02:36.280 of the time. Not even close. It was oil and water. 00:02:36.500 --> 00:02:39.080 Pretty much. As Tom Morello famously said, they 00:02:39.080 --> 00:02:41.919 basically invented punk rock. Parade listed them 00:02:41.919 --> 00:02:44.639 as one of the best rock bands ever. VH1 called 00:02:44.639 --> 00:02:46.419 them one of the greatest hard rock artists. By 00:02:46.419 --> 00:02:49.419 praise. And yet. Yeah. As one writer put it, 00:02:49.460 --> 00:02:51.800 they were like a catastrophic force of nature. 00:02:51.879 --> 00:02:53.860 But, you know, forces of nature aren't usually 00:02:53.860 --> 00:02:56.639 great at filing quarterly reports. Oh, good point. 00:02:56.919 --> 00:02:59.300 So to understand that force, we have to dig into 00:02:59.300 --> 00:03:01.979 the foundations, the roots. Absolutely. Let's 00:03:01.979 --> 00:03:04.759 go back to Detroit. OK, let's unpack those earliest 00:03:04.759 --> 00:03:09.039 roots. Our first major stop. The formation, those 00:03:09.039 --> 00:03:12.159 Motor City origins, and some genuinely surprising 00:03:12.159 --> 00:03:14.680 musical influences that shaped them between, 00:03:14.719 --> 00:03:18.199 say, 63 and 67. It really starts with a teenage 00:03:18.199 --> 00:03:21.259 friendship, like so many bands. Two guitarists, 00:03:21.400 --> 00:03:24.740 Wayne Kramer, born Wayne Stanley Combase, but 00:03:24.740 --> 00:03:27.639 he adopted Kramer to sort of forge his own identity, 00:03:27.800 --> 00:03:29.900 you know? Right. Separate from the family name. 00:03:30.060 --> 00:03:32.830 Yeah. And Fred Smith. They were just kids completely 00:03:32.830 --> 00:03:35.250 bonded by speed and energy. And what were they 00:03:35.250 --> 00:03:37.189 listening to? What was fueling that energy? Well, 00:03:37.270 --> 00:03:39.729 initially it was pure Americana, really. R &B, 00:03:39.830 --> 00:03:42.750 classic blues, definitely Chuck Berry, the driving 00:03:42.750 --> 00:03:45.349 instrumentals of Dick Dale, The Ventures. Just 00:03:45.349 --> 00:03:47.469 rock stuff. Yeah, that energy. And the sheer 00:03:47.469 --> 00:03:49.750 rebellion of garage rock. It was all about music 00:03:49.750 --> 00:03:52.949 that moved fast, prioritized raw attack over, 00:03:53.050 --> 00:03:55.110 you know, polish. They started in different bands, 00:03:55.210 --> 00:03:57.189 right? Kramer had the Bounty Hunters. Smith had 00:03:57.189 --> 00:04:00.340 the Vibratoins. Little local garage bands. But 00:04:00.340 --> 00:04:02.539 eventually the most serious players kind of merged 00:04:02.539 --> 00:04:04.120 under the Bounty Hunters name. And they were 00:04:04.120 --> 00:04:06.360 good. Oh, yeah. They were tight. Good enough 00:04:06.360 --> 00:04:08.960 and popular enough locally around Detroit that 00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:10.599 they actually managed to quit their day jobs, 00:04:10.719 --> 00:04:13.759 which was a huge deal for teenagers in the mid 00:04:13.759 --> 00:04:16.420 -60s. Definitely. So when does the classic lineup 00:04:16.420 --> 00:04:18.740 really come together? This is where it solidifies. 00:04:19.060 --> 00:04:22.379 Rob Derminer initially auditions as a bassist, 00:04:22.420 --> 00:04:25.500 believe it or not. Really? Not vocals? Not initially. 00:04:25.759 --> 00:04:28.199 Yeah. But they quickly recognized his immense 00:04:28.199 --> 00:04:31.160 natural talent was as a frontman. He just had 00:04:31.160 --> 00:04:33.959 this commanding, almost shamanistic stage presence 00:04:33.959 --> 00:04:37.279 and this booming baritone voice that showed his 00:04:37.279 --> 00:04:40.139 deep love for American soul and gospel. Wow. 00:04:40.399 --> 00:04:43.019 And it's Derminer who becomes Rob Tyner, right? 00:04:43.160 --> 00:04:45.300 Exactly. He becomes kind of the architect of 00:04:45.300 --> 00:04:48.160 the band's intellectual identity. He rechristens 00:04:48.160 --> 00:04:50.720 himself Rob Tyner, taking the surname not from 00:04:50.720 --> 00:04:53.500 some rock star, but from John Coltrane's legendary 00:04:53.500 --> 00:04:56.660 pianist, McCoy Tyner. That's a statement in itself, 00:04:56.800 --> 00:04:58.899 isn't it? Choosing a jazz name? It really is. 00:04:59.180 --> 00:05:01.560 And it was Tyner who coined the famous moniker, 00:05:01.639 --> 00:05:05.879 MC5, short for Motor City 5, explicitly rooting 00:05:05.879 --> 00:05:08.100 them in that Detroit identity. Okay, so Tyner's 00:05:08.100 --> 00:05:11.379 in on vocals, Kramer and Smith on guitars, then 00:05:11.379 --> 00:05:13.560 Davis and Thompson. Yeah, Michael Davis joins 00:05:13.560 --> 00:05:15.560 on bass, Dennis Thompson comes in on drums around 00:05:15.560 --> 00:05:18.360 65. That completes the explosive rhythm section. 00:05:18.810 --> 00:05:20.970 The classic lineup was set. But what makes their 00:05:20.970 --> 00:05:23.350 sound so distinctive? What moves them beyond 00:05:23.350 --> 00:05:26.769 just, you know, standard good garage rock? It's 00:05:26.769 --> 00:05:29.290 exactly that influence Piner signaled with his 00:05:29.290 --> 00:05:33.170 name change. The unexpected chaotic fire of free 00:05:33.170 --> 00:05:35.790 jazz. Okay, this is the crucial twist, I think, 00:05:35.810 --> 00:05:38.829 because you're talking Detroit. Epicenter Motown, 00:05:39.029 --> 00:05:42.480 heavy blues, muscle car culture. Right. But Smith 00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:44.220 and Kramer, they weren't just listening to the 00:05:44.220 --> 00:05:46.819 radio hits. They were obsessively soaking up 00:05:46.819 --> 00:05:50.060 these avant -garde free jazz giants. Albert Ehler. 00:05:50.459 --> 00:05:53.279 Archie Shep, Sun Ra. Sun Ra, the orchestra guy. 00:05:53.459 --> 00:05:56.579 Very same. And the late ecstatic period of John 00:05:56.579 --> 00:05:58.399 Coltrane. So what did they take from that? It 00:05:58.399 --> 00:06:01.079 seems so far removed from rock and roll. They 00:06:01.079 --> 00:06:03.600 admired the sheer noise, the chaotic abandon 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:06.639 of that scene. You know, the ecstatic high -pitched 00:06:06.639 --> 00:06:09.459 squealing of Ehlers' saxophone. The way it just 00:06:09.459 --> 00:06:12.139 rejected traditional melody for pure primal expression. 00:06:12.339 --> 00:06:14.819 They recognized that feeling, that sort of imminent 00:06:14.819 --> 00:06:17.579 collapse in the music. And they basically asked... 00:06:17.819 --> 00:06:19.720 Why can't we do that on electric guitars? So 00:06:19.720 --> 00:06:22.980 they literally tried to imitate squealing saxophones 00:06:22.980 --> 00:06:26.060 and dissonant horns on guitars. Pretty much. 00:06:26.139 --> 00:06:28.740 How do you achieve that technically? Well, it 00:06:28.740 --> 00:06:31.819 resulted in their incredibly unique interlocking 00:06:31.819 --> 00:06:35.139 dual guitar style. Okay, how did that work? They 00:06:35.139 --> 00:06:38.560 used feedback, heavy distortion, extended techniques, 00:06:38.939 --> 00:06:41.680 stuff that was almost unheard of in rock music 00:06:41.680 --> 00:06:44.819 at the time. Kramer's lead playing became known 00:06:44.819 --> 00:06:47.699 for this irregular... really heavy vibrato, unique 00:06:47.699 --> 00:06:51.060 scales, often just pushing into tier noise. And 00:06:51.060 --> 00:06:53.980 Smith. Fred Sonic Smith wasn't just strumming 00:06:53.980 --> 00:06:56.699 chords, though. No way. His role was just as 00:06:56.699 --> 00:06:59.339 vital. He wasn't just rhythm. His part provided 00:06:59.339 --> 00:07:01.939 this explosive, often dissonant textural energy, 00:07:02.060 --> 00:07:04.600 apparently inspired by Sonny Sherrick. Ah, another 00:07:04.600 --> 00:07:06.860 jazz connection. One of the few electric guitarists 00:07:06.860 --> 00:07:09.660 really in that free jazz world. Exactly. So together, 00:07:09.779 --> 00:07:11.500 they built this wall of sound that was somehow 00:07:11.500 --> 00:07:14.750 both R &B -tight and avant -garde chaotic. It's 00:07:14.750 --> 00:07:16.230 a hell of a combination. You can really hear 00:07:16.230 --> 00:07:19.410 that fusion on Starship, right? Oh, absolutely. 00:07:19.509 --> 00:07:22.310 The core of that song is just pure electric chaos. 00:07:22.730 --> 00:07:25.990 But it was so directly influenced by the spiritual 00:07:25.990 --> 00:07:28.750 cosmic vibe of Sun Ra. That they credited him. 00:07:28.829 --> 00:07:31.029 They gave him a co -credit. Yeah. Because the 00:07:31.029 --> 00:07:33.470 lyrics were actually cribbed from one of Ra's 00:07:33.470 --> 00:07:36.910 cosmic poems. Think about that. Yeah. A rock 00:07:36.910 --> 00:07:40.069 band giving songwriting credit to a jazz mystic. 00:07:40.399 --> 00:07:43.060 That shows you how deep that influence ran. Wow. 00:07:43.360 --> 00:07:45.720 So that cocktail high -speed R &B foundation, 00:07:46.019 --> 00:07:49.040 overlaid with the improvisational chaotic urgency 00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:53.100 of free jazz, it didn't just create a new sound. 00:07:53.439 --> 00:07:56.519 It created a reputation. A massive one. How so? 00:07:56.879 --> 00:07:58.319 Well, they played almost nightly around Detroit. 00:07:58.600 --> 00:08:00.439 Yeah. And they developed this utterly blistering 00:08:00.439 --> 00:08:02.519 live reputation. They weren't just playing music. 00:08:02.560 --> 00:08:04.920 They were causing an event. Like dangerous. Kind 00:08:04.920 --> 00:08:07.079 of, yeah. They regularly drew sold -out crowds, 00:08:07.139 --> 00:08:09.069 like 1 ,000 people or more. And this was years 00:08:09.069 --> 00:08:10.889 before they were nationally famous at all. The 00:08:10.889 --> 00:08:12.790 contemporary descriptions of their shows are 00:08:12.790 --> 00:08:15.170 pretty wild. I read one where Robert Bixby called 00:08:15.170 --> 00:08:18.310 their sound a catastrophic force of nature the 00:08:18.310 --> 00:08:21.079 band was barely able to control. That phrase, 00:08:21.339 --> 00:08:24.199 catastrophic force of nature, it really sums 00:08:24.199 --> 00:08:27.879 it up. The risk, the energy, the feeling, it 00:08:27.879 --> 00:08:29.819 could all fall apart at any second. And didn't 00:08:29.819 --> 00:08:31.579 Don McLeese say something about the aftermath? 00:08:31.980 --> 00:08:34.200 Yeah, he noted that fans would compare the feeling 00:08:34.200 --> 00:08:37.000 after an MC5 show to the delirious exhaustion 00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:41.080 after, quote, a street rumble or an orgy. Yeah. 00:08:41.690 --> 00:08:44.190 They were physically draining the audience. Even 00:08:44.190 --> 00:08:47.309 Iggy Pop, who was, you know, a rival but also 00:08:47.309 --> 00:08:49.889 kind of studying them. Right, from the Stooges. 00:08:49.990 --> 00:08:51.970 He noted that before they fully developed their 00:08:51.970 --> 00:08:53.629 own stuff, they were just a world -class cover 00:08:53.629 --> 00:08:56.529 band doing The Who, Hendrix, The Stones with 00:08:56.529 --> 00:09:00.330 incredible intensity. But the moment they introduced 00:09:00.330 --> 00:09:03.029 that free jazz overlay, those really hard rock 00:09:03.029 --> 00:09:05.669 values, they transcended. They became something 00:09:05.669 --> 00:09:08.549 totally new, totally unique to Detroit. But, 00:09:08.610 --> 00:09:11.029 you know, a catastrophic force of nature. It 00:09:11.029 --> 00:09:13.149 needs some kind of organizational force behind 00:09:13.149 --> 00:09:14.769 it, right? Or at least someone trying to channel 00:09:14.769 --> 00:09:16.789 it. Which brings us squarely into the political 00:09:16.789 --> 00:09:19.309 whirlwind that really defined their short initial 00:09:19.309 --> 00:09:22.590 career. Yeah. Enter John Sinclair. Exactly. Section 00:09:22.590 --> 00:09:26.250 three. Radical politics, the infamous live debut, 00:09:26.350 --> 00:09:28.789 and the controversy that got them booted off 00:09:28.789 --> 00:09:30.970 Elektra Records. So the band's tearing up Detroit 00:09:30.970 --> 00:09:33.710 musically, but they need someone to handle the, 00:09:33.710 --> 00:09:37.429 well, the chaos, business -wise. And that leads 00:09:37.429 --> 00:09:40.070 them to John Sinclair. How did that connection 00:09:40.070 --> 00:09:43.110 happen? Kramer was looking for a manager. Rob 00:09:43.110 --> 00:09:45.470 Tyner knew Sinclair. He was a radical left -wing 00:09:45.470 --> 00:09:48.309 writer, a bit older, already deep in the Detroit 00:09:48.309 --> 00:09:50.950 counterculture scene. Sinclair becomes their 00:09:50.950 --> 00:09:54.820 manager, calling his enterprise, Trans Love Energies. 00:09:54.980 --> 00:09:57.679 And Trans Love Energies wasn't just like a management 00:09:57.679 --> 00:10:00.399 company, was it? Oh, no. It was way more than 00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:03.120 that. It was a collective, a commune and a management 00:10:03.120 --> 00:10:06.500 firm all rolled into one. So Sinclair demanded 00:10:06.500 --> 00:10:09.240 commitment. Total commitment to the politics, 00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:11.440 the counterculture, the communal lifestyle, just 00:10:11.440 --> 00:10:13.600 as much as the music. He became the spiritual 00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:16.039 and political mentor, especially to Kramer. Introducing 00:10:16.039 --> 00:10:18.559 him to more free jazz beat generation poetry 00:10:18.559 --> 00:10:20.940 in this deep sense of progressive political awareness. 00:10:21.740 --> 00:10:23.899 heavily influenced by the Marxism of the Black 00:10:23.899 --> 00:10:26.039 Panther Party, people like Fred Hampton. Okay, 00:10:26.100 --> 00:10:28.360 so this is where they really become revolutionaries, 00:10:28.360 --> 00:10:30.799 not just musicians. Definitely. And because of 00:10:30.799 --> 00:10:32.840 their association with the Black Panthers, founder 00:10:32.840 --> 00:10:35.879 Huey P. Newton essentially prompted Sinclair 00:10:35.879 --> 00:10:38.000 to establish the White Panther Party. Right, 00:10:38.080 --> 00:10:40.919 the WPP. What was their deal? It was envisioned 00:10:40.919 --> 00:10:44.240 as a militant leftist organization made up of 00:10:44.240 --> 00:10:47.440 white people, whose mission was explicitly to 00:10:47.440 --> 00:10:49.080 assist the Black Panthers in the revolution. 00:10:50.159 --> 00:10:53.220 They were serious. Did they have like a manifesto? 00:10:53.220 --> 00:10:55.659 Oh, yeah. A 10 point program. Yeah. Included 00:10:55.659 --> 00:10:57.960 things like total release of all political prisoners 00:10:57.960 --> 00:11:02.500 and free dope as a tool for cultural change. 00:11:02.519 --> 00:11:05.279 Wow. OK. And the band's association with Sinclair 00:11:05.279 --> 00:11:08.059 and the WPP was incredibly costly in the long 00:11:08.059 --> 00:11:10.480 run. It ultimately led to Sinclair's infamous 00:11:10.480 --> 00:11:13.019 jail sentence, 10 years for two joints. Which 00:11:13.019 --> 00:11:15.840 became a massive counterculture cause, the free 00:11:15.840 --> 00:11:18.419 John Sinclair movement. Exactly. But the band 00:11:18.419 --> 00:11:21.240 didn't just talk the talk. They walked the walk, 00:11:21.399 --> 00:11:23.480 integrating this politics right into their live 00:11:23.480 --> 00:11:25.639 shows, making them intentionally provocative. 00:11:25.820 --> 00:11:28.740 And yeah, frankly, dangerous. How so? What did 00:11:28.740 --> 00:11:31.379 they do on stage? The early stage show was pure 00:11:31.379 --> 00:11:34.059 radical theater. Members would actually appear 00:11:34.059 --> 00:11:37.019 on stage carrying unloaded rifles. Seriously? 00:11:37.500 --> 00:11:40.620 Rifles? Yeah. The implication was clear. The 00:11:40.620 --> 00:11:43.200 revolution is here, or it's coming. And at the 00:11:43.200 --> 00:11:46.720 climax of some shows, an unseen sniper would 00:11:46.720 --> 00:11:49.700 fire a blank round and Tyner would dramatically 00:11:49.700 --> 00:11:52.600 collapse on stage. That's intense political theater, 00:11:52.779 --> 00:11:55.759 especially in the late 60s. Super intense, amplified 00:11:55.759 --> 00:11:57.779 by the fact that band members were all using 00:11:57.779 --> 00:12:00.879 heavy psychedelics, apparently. Oh. Magnifying 00:12:00.879 --> 00:12:03.120 the intensity, blurring that line between performance 00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:07.159 and, well, reality. And that political fervor, 00:12:07.159 --> 00:12:09.200 that theatricality, it really came to a head 00:12:09.200 --> 00:12:11.000 in 68, didn't it? At the Democratic National 00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:14.799 Convention protests in Chicago. The DNC, which 00:12:14.799 --> 00:12:16.679 devolves into what many people rightly called 00:12:16.679 --> 00:12:19.620 a police riot. The MC5's appearance there is 00:12:19.620 --> 00:12:21.559 absolutely foundational to their whole myth. 00:12:21.779 --> 00:12:23.860 It's a pivotal moment in American counterculture 00:12:23.860 --> 00:12:26.460 history, really. Absolutely. And the MC5 was 00:12:26.460 --> 00:12:28.740 the only major musical band to initially show 00:12:28.740 --> 00:12:31.320 up and play during the protests organized by 00:12:31.320 --> 00:12:33.580 the Yippies, the Youth International Party. What 00:12:33.580 --> 00:12:36.100 about other bands? Weren't people like Neil Young 00:12:36.100 --> 00:12:38.360 supposed to be there? Yeah, Neil Young apparently 00:12:38.360 --> 00:12:41.159 arrived but refused to play because of the chaos, 00:12:41.440 --> 00:12:45.159 the escalating violence. But the MC5, they stayed. 00:12:45.779 --> 00:12:49.100 What's the atmosphere like? Toxic. Tear gas, 00:12:49.480 --> 00:12:53.299 police lines, just widespread brutality. And 00:12:53.299 --> 00:12:55.580 the MC5 essentially became the sonic soundtrack 00:12:55.580 --> 00:12:58.700 to the riot. Wayne Kramer confirmed they played 00:12:58.700 --> 00:13:01.799 for over eight hours straight. Eight hours. In 00:13:01.799 --> 00:13:03.740 that environment. Imagine the pressure cooker. 00:13:04.019 --> 00:13:06.799 They knew they were basically the last beacon 00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:09.620 of organized counterculture sound in that park. 00:13:09.799 --> 00:13:11.840 They just kept playing, trying to maintain the 00:13:11.840 --> 00:13:14.440 energy, fuel the protesters, even as the police 00:13:14.440 --> 00:13:17.259 were attacking people. Anyone else play? Apparently 00:13:17.259 --> 00:13:19.299 only Bruce Barthol from Country Joe and the Fish 00:13:19.299 --> 00:13:22.299 and maybe folk singer Phil Ox showed any willingness 00:13:22.299 --> 00:13:25.470 to perform besides the MC5. That marathon, totally 00:13:25.470 --> 00:13:27.730 anarchic performance, just cemented their reputation. 00:13:28.070 --> 00:13:30.669 These guys were the real deal. Authentic revolutionaries, 00:13:30.669 --> 00:13:33.289 not just rock stars playing at it. And that authenticity, 00:13:33.450 --> 00:13:35.549 that raw energy, is what got them their record 00:13:35.549 --> 00:13:38.330 deal, right? Directly. Elektra Records executive 00:13:38.330 --> 00:13:41.870 Jock Holzman and producer Bruce Botnick saw them 00:13:41.870 --> 00:13:44.509 live and realized their true power came from 00:13:44.509 --> 00:13:47.009 that interaction with the audience. That dangerous, 00:13:47.149 --> 00:13:50.049 chaotic energy was the show. So instead of a 00:13:50.049 --> 00:13:52.750 studio album first. They decided to record their 00:13:52.750 --> 00:13:56.149 debut. Kick out the jams, live, at Detroit's 00:13:56.149 --> 00:13:58.350 Grand Day Ballroom, Halloween night and the night 00:13:58.350 --> 00:14:02.629 before, October 30th and 31st, 1968. And it's 00:14:02.629 --> 00:14:05.590 arguably the most powerful, energetic live album 00:14:05.590 --> 00:14:08.289 ever made. Just pure lightning in a bottle. It 00:14:08.289 --> 00:14:10.909 captured them at their absolute raw, revolutionary 00:14:10.909 --> 00:14:13.330 peak. Totally. The album's packed with proto 00:14:13.330 --> 00:14:15.870 -punk classics. The title track, obviously, Rocket 00:14:15.870 --> 00:14:19.110 Reducer 062, Ramalama Fafa. So title. The extended 00:14:19.110 --> 00:14:22.360 jam -based Sun Ra tribute, Starship. Plus, that 00:14:22.360 --> 00:14:24.700 incredible extended cover of John Lee Hooker's 00:14:24.700 --> 00:14:26.840 Motor City is burning. Where Tyner explicitly 00:14:26.840 --> 00:14:29.360 praises the Black Panthers' role during the 67 00:14:29.360 --> 00:14:31.740 Detroit riots. Yeah, making their political alignment 00:14:31.740 --> 00:14:34.519 absolutely undeniable. Right there on the record. 00:14:34.679 --> 00:14:36.820 But the real controversy wasn't just the politics, 00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:40.340 was it? It was the language. Exactly. That rallying 00:14:40.340 --> 00:14:42.559 cry in the title track, which was essential to 00:14:42.559 --> 00:14:44.840 their identity, you know, urging the audience 00:14:44.840 --> 00:14:46.700 to break through cultural boundaries, was famously, 00:14:46.860 --> 00:14:49.399 kick out the jams, motherfuckers. Which probably 00:14:49.399 --> 00:14:52.399 didn't go over well in 1969. Not with the establishment, 00:14:52.600 --> 00:14:56.620 no. That, combined with Sinclair's fiercely inflammatory 00:14:56.620 --> 00:15:00.519 liner notes, it caused an immediate massive headache 00:15:00.519 --> 00:15:03.000 for Elektra Records. So the label tried to clean 00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:05.899 it up? They attempted damage control. They put 00:15:05.899 --> 00:15:08.340 out a censored single version for radio play 00:15:08.340 --> 00:15:11.240 that replaced the offending word with brothers 00:15:11.240 --> 00:15:13.440 and sisters. How did the band feel about that? 00:15:13.639 --> 00:15:16.000 Well, Rob Tyner later said that edited version 00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:18.279 was released without any group consensus. It 00:15:18.279 --> 00:15:20.879 basically undermined their whole anti -establishment 00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:22.620 stance, didn't it? Yeah, kind of defeats the 00:15:22.620 --> 00:15:25.039 purpose. But the album itself actually sold pretty 00:15:25.039 --> 00:15:27.899 well for a debut. Over 100 ,000 copies peaked 00:15:27.899 --> 00:15:30.440 at number 30 on the Billboard chart in May 69. 00:15:31.070 --> 00:15:33.889 The problem wasn't sales initially. It was the 00:15:33.889 --> 00:15:36.250 morality war being waged against them. And the 00:15:36.250 --> 00:15:38.970 real breaking point came back home in Detroit 00:15:38.970 --> 00:15:41.730 with the Hudson's department store chain. Right. 00:15:42.149 --> 00:15:44.690 Hudson's refused to stock kick out the jams because 00:15:44.690 --> 00:15:47.789 of the profanity. Standard censorship move. But 00:15:47.789 --> 00:15:51.789 the MC5's response? Pure, unadulterated provocation. 00:15:51.830 --> 00:15:55.220 Zero compromise. This is where that clash between 00:15:55.220 --> 00:15:58.820 radical idealism and terrible business sense 00:15:58.820 --> 00:16:01.100 really comes into play. Totally. They took out 00:16:01.100 --> 00:16:03.299 a full page ad in the Detroit Underground paper 00:16:03.299 --> 00:16:06.220 Fifth Estate. The ad proclaimed, stick alive 00:16:06.220 --> 00:16:10.039 with the MC5 and fuck Hudson's. Oh, wow. And 00:16:10.039 --> 00:16:11.759 crucially, they also slapped Elektra Records 00:16:11.759 --> 00:16:14.980 logo prominently on that ad. Ouch. So they basically 00:16:14.980 --> 00:16:17.080 forced their record label to take a side in this 00:16:17.080 --> 00:16:19.580 revolutionary dispute with a major retailer. 00:16:19.700 --> 00:16:22.519 Exactly. Faced with a massive retail boycott. 00:16:22.860 --> 00:16:25.340 Hudson's retaliated by pulling all Elektra records 00:16:25.340 --> 00:16:28.059 from their stores, not just MC5. Jack Holtzman, 00:16:28.179 --> 00:16:30.100 the head of Elektra, felt he had no choice. He 00:16:30.100 --> 00:16:32.460 dropped the MC5. They were just too hot, too 00:16:32.460 --> 00:16:34.559 controversial a handle. So that whole debut era 00:16:34.559 --> 00:16:38.039 cover of Rolling Stone, top 30 album, it all 00:16:38.039 --> 00:16:40.139 collapsed in just a matter of months. Gone. Poof. 00:16:40.580 --> 00:16:43.340 But the band, still kind of riding high on their 00:16:43.340 --> 00:16:44.960 reputation, they quickly signed with Atlantic 00:16:44.960 --> 00:16:47.460 Records, which moves us into their short -lived 00:16:47.460 --> 00:16:50.500 studio era. Right. That transition leads us into 00:16:50.500 --> 00:16:53.639 section four. The Studio Years and Disintegration, 00:16:53.740 --> 00:16:57.399 covering 1970 to 72. And the story of their two 00:16:57.399 --> 00:17:00.620 Atlantic albums is really, it's a story of diminishing 00:17:00.620 --> 00:17:03.639 returns, commercially, but also this fascinating 00:17:03.639 --> 00:17:06.640 conflict over artistic control. Yeah, their second 00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:09.880 album, back in the USA, released in 1970, was 00:17:09.880 --> 00:17:12.359 a massive, like, radical change in direction. 00:17:12.700 --> 00:17:14.900 Atlantic paired them with producer John Landau. 00:17:15.019 --> 00:17:17.119 John Landau, who would later become famous working 00:17:17.119 --> 00:17:18.900 with Bruce Springsteen, right? The same guy. 00:17:19.339 --> 00:17:22.440 And Landau had a very specific vision. He was 00:17:22.440 --> 00:17:25.019 determined to strip away the sprawling, chaotic 00:17:25.019 --> 00:17:27.980 sludge of the live show. He saw potential for 00:17:27.980 --> 00:17:30.680 a much tighter, stripped -down rock sound. Less 00:17:30.680 --> 00:17:33.480 jam, more punch. Exactly. Landau aimed for perfection 00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:36.400 precision. Back in the USA, his short, fast, 00:17:36.539 --> 00:17:39.140 intensely hard -edged, angry guitar rack. It's 00:17:39.140 --> 00:17:40.839 a deliberate prototype for the punk rock that 00:17:40.839 --> 00:17:42.619 would emerge just a few years later. The tracks 00:17:42.619 --> 00:17:44.759 average, like, barely three minutes long. But 00:17:44.759 --> 00:17:46.779 the band, they weren't entirely happy with that, 00:17:46.839 --> 00:17:50.299 were they? No. They felt Landau was overbearing, 00:17:50.380 --> 00:17:52.940 heavy -handed. They felt he was trying to shape 00:17:52.940 --> 00:17:55.299 the group entirely to his liking, compressing 00:17:55.299 --> 00:17:57.579 the sound so much that, apart from Tyner's unique 00:17:57.579 --> 00:18:00.920 vocals, some members felt they were barely recognizable 00:18:00.920 --> 00:18:04.420 as the same band. So a deep conflict between 00:18:04.420 --> 00:18:06.859 the revolutionary chaos they embodied and the 00:18:06.859 --> 00:18:09.680 studio discipline Landau was demanding. Absolutely. 00:18:09.880 --> 00:18:13.289 And the result? Mixed reviews, commercially mediocre 00:18:13.289 --> 00:18:16.910 sales. The album only peaked at number 137 on 00:18:16.910 --> 00:18:20.029 the US chart, lasted just seven weeks. The public 00:18:20.029 --> 00:18:21.950 seemed kind of confused by the abrupt shift from 00:18:21.950 --> 00:18:25.109 the raw live album to this super compressed studio 00:18:25.109 --> 00:18:27.190 sound. Meanwhile, the internal pressure must 00:18:27.190 --> 00:18:29.609 have been immense. Heavy touring. Escalating 00:18:29.609 --> 00:18:31.589 drug use. And their relationship with their mentor, 00:18:31.789 --> 00:18:33.970 John Sinclair, was unraveling too. Yeah, that 00:18:33.970 --> 00:18:35.890 political alienation was becoming really clear. 00:18:35.970 --> 00:18:38.069 Sinclair was in jail, right? And despite being 00:18:38.069 --> 00:18:40.150 so deeply connected to his cause, when the big 00:18:40.150 --> 00:18:42.250 John Sinclair Freedom Rally was organized in 00:18:42.250 --> 00:18:44.950 December 71, huge event, John Lennon played. 00:18:45.130 --> 00:18:47.509 Right, to protest that insane 10 -year sentence 00:18:47.509 --> 00:18:50.299 for two joints. The MC5 were conspicuously not 00:18:50.299 --> 00:18:52.480 allowed to play. Wait, the White Panther Party 00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:54.859 band, the guys who went to Chicago? Yeah. They 00:18:54.859 --> 00:18:56.539 weren't allowed at the rally for their own guy. 00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:00.099 Apparently not. The organizing committee kept 00:19:00.099 --> 00:19:03.519 them off the stage. It suggests their radicalism, 00:19:03.539 --> 00:19:05.960 which was once their calling card, had maybe 00:19:05.960 --> 00:19:08.660 become too controversial, even for the counterculture 00:19:08.660 --> 00:19:11.079 they helped inspire. Or maybe there were other 00:19:11.079 --> 00:19:14.079 internal politics at play. Wow. So they tried 00:19:14.079 --> 00:19:16.539 to correct course with their final original record, 00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:19.940 High Time, in 71. Yeah, they broke with Landau, 00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:22.680 brought in Jeffrey Haslam, and they regained 00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:24.740 much more creative control over the production 00:19:24.740 --> 00:19:26.900 this time. And ironically, this became the best 00:19:26.900 --> 00:19:28.819 reviewed of their original records, didn't it? 00:19:28.940 --> 00:19:31.960 It did. The critics liked it. And the band seemed 00:19:31.960 --> 00:19:34.319 satisfied because they were finally allowed to 00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:37.079 stretch out musically again to experiment more. 00:19:37.400 --> 00:19:39.200 You can hear that musical expansion on tracks 00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:41.559 like Future Now, which is like 10 minutes long. 00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:44.940 And Skunk, sonically speaking, which has that 00:19:44.940 --> 00:19:47.400 Sunray influence bubbling up again. They were 00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:49.740 trying to synthesize their early chaos with some 00:19:49.740 --> 00:19:52.779 of that newfound studio discipline, maybe. But 00:19:52.779 --> 00:19:54.720 critical acclaim doesn't always pay the bills, 00:19:54.819 --> 00:19:58.200 does it? Unfortunately not. Sales were worse 00:19:58.200 --> 00:20:01.480 than ever. Partly because Atlantic Records apparently 00:20:01.480 --> 00:20:04.279 failed to promote the album adequately. It only 00:20:04.279 --> 00:20:07.410 peaked at number 191. And that financial reality 00:20:07.410 --> 00:20:10.690 was the final straw for Atlantic. Yep. Both studio 00:20:10.690 --> 00:20:13.150 albums had lost money for the label. Atlantic 00:20:13.150 --> 00:20:15.410 dropped them. And the internal disintegration 00:20:15.410 --> 00:20:17.390 followed almost immediately. Who was the first 00:20:17.390 --> 00:20:20.410 casualty? Michael Davis, the bassist. He was 00:20:20.410 --> 00:20:23.789 forced out in February 72, largely due to his 00:20:23.789 --> 00:20:26.690 increasing heroin use, which was making him unreliable. 00:20:26.750 --> 00:20:29.650 That's tough. The remaining trio, Kramer, Smith, 00:20:29.930 --> 00:20:32.650 Thompson, plus some touring musicians, they did 00:20:32.650 --> 00:20:35.069 manage one final recording session in London. 00:20:35.420 --> 00:20:37.779 for a film soundtrack called Gold. Right, they 00:20:37.779 --> 00:20:40.819 track three songs, Gold, Train Music, and Inside 00:20:40.819 --> 00:20:44.000 Out. But that was truly their last gasp as a 00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:46.539 recording unit. And the end came quickly, and 00:20:46.539 --> 00:20:49.039 pretty tragically. The remaining group, basically 00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:51.900 just a touring shell, briefly reunited for one 00:20:51.900 --> 00:20:55.640 final show. New Year's Eve, December 31st, 1972, 00:20:56.119 --> 00:20:58.619 back at the Grand Ballroom. The same place where, 00:20:58.740 --> 00:21:01.019 just a few years earlier, thousands of screaming 00:21:01.019 --> 00:21:03.019 fans had packed in to record Kick Out the Jam. 00:21:03.160 --> 00:21:06.180 And this time? Poorly attended. Maybe a few dozen 00:21:06.180 --> 00:21:10.079 people. Kramer, apparently distraught, struggling 00:21:10.079 --> 00:21:12.359 with his own addiction issues, just left the 00:21:12.359 --> 00:21:15.140 stage after a few songs. Oh, man. And the band 00:21:15.140 --> 00:21:17.859 disbanded immediately after that. Done. It's 00:21:17.859 --> 00:21:20.700 the ultimate tragic footnote, isn't it? The band 00:21:20.700 --> 00:21:23.119 that define live energy, ending their career 00:21:23.119 --> 00:21:25.500 playing to an almost empty room. Yeah, it's rough. 00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:28.519 And that tragedy leads us directly into Section 00:21:28.519 --> 00:21:32.599 5, post -breakup lives, incarceration, and redemption, 00:21:32.839 --> 00:21:36.900 covering roughly 73 through 91. The band scattered, 00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:39.700 and their paths couldn't have been more different, 00:21:39.819 --> 00:21:41.880 especially Wayne Kramer's. Yeah, let's start 00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:44.319 with the others first, maybe. Fred Sonic Smith, 00:21:44.519 --> 00:21:46.940 he formed a new band called Ascension, briefly 00:21:46.940 --> 00:21:49.019 included Thompson on drums and even Davis on 00:21:49.019 --> 00:21:51.779 piano, oddly enough. Then he formed Sonic's Rendezvous 00:21:51.779 --> 00:21:53.720 Band, right? Which became kind of legendary in 00:21:53.720 --> 00:21:56.519 Detroit. Totally legendary. Mostly for only releasing 00:21:56.519 --> 00:22:00.000 one initial single, The Amazing City Slang. but 00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:02.480 maintaining this ferocious live reputation for 00:22:02.480 --> 00:22:05.759 years, hugely influential locally. And more famously, 00:22:05.859 --> 00:22:08.440 perhaps, Smith married singer Patti Smith. Right. 00:22:08.519 --> 00:22:11.259 He became a crucial collaborator for her, co 00:22:11.259 --> 00:22:13.980 -writing all the songs on her 1988 album, Dream 00:22:13.980 --> 00:22:17.079 of Life, including that powerhouse anthem, People 00:22:17.079 --> 00:22:19.180 Have the Power. Then he kind of retired from 00:22:19.180 --> 00:22:21.160 music. Yeah, basically retired to raise their 00:22:21.160 --> 00:22:23.799 family. Yeah. And then, sadly, died of heart 00:22:23.799 --> 00:22:26.859 failure in 1994. Way too young. What about Rob 00:22:26.859 --> 00:22:30.109 Tyner? Tyner also had a significant post -MC5 00:22:30.109 --> 00:22:33.190 career. Performed solo, briefly fronted something 00:22:33.190 --> 00:22:36.309 called the new MC5. He became a successful producer, 00:22:36.589 --> 00:22:39.230 manager, promoter in the Detroit scene. Released 00:22:39.230 --> 00:22:41.809 a well -regarded album, Blood Brothers, in 1990. 00:22:42.210 --> 00:22:44.210 And then he also... He also died tragically young. 00:22:44.349 --> 00:22:47.490 Heart attack in 1991, age 46. Just devastating 00:22:47.490 --> 00:22:50.069 losses. And Michael Davis. The bassist who was 00:22:50.069 --> 00:22:52.190 forced out. He eventually joined another Detroit 00:22:52.190 --> 00:22:54.650 band, Destroy All Monsters, featuring members 00:22:54.650 --> 00:22:57.059 of the Stooges and other scene debts. stayed 00:22:57.059 --> 00:22:58.900 active in the local scene for years. Okay, but 00:22:58.900 --> 00:23:00.960 the most dramatic story, the one with the biggest 00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:03.160 ups and downs, really belongs to Wayne Kramer. 00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:06.920 Without a doubt. Having lost his band, his identity, 00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:10.220 his whole political mission, he just spiraled 00:23:10.220 --> 00:23:13.130 downwards. He admits quite openly he became basically 00:23:13.130 --> 00:23:16.109 nothing more than a small -time Detroit criminal. 00:23:16.289 --> 00:23:19.490 And that decline culminated in... 1975, he was 00:23:19.490 --> 00:23:21.890 caught selling drugs to undercover federal agents. 00:23:22.349 --> 00:23:24.829 Convicted. Sentenced to four years in federal 00:23:24.829 --> 00:23:28.410 prison at FMC Lexington, Kentucky. Wow. That 00:23:28.410 --> 00:23:30.890 sounds like the absolute bottom. The revolutionary 00:23:30.890 --> 00:23:34.170 jailed by the very system he despised. It does. 00:23:34.529 --> 00:23:38.130 But prison, specifically FMC Lexington, became 00:23:38.130 --> 00:23:40.750 maybe the single most important setting... For 00:23:40.750 --> 00:23:42.710 his musical and personal redemption, it's an 00:23:42.710 --> 00:23:45.089 incredible turnaround. How? What happened there? 00:23:45.289 --> 00:23:48.150 The irony is just profound, isn't it? The self 00:23:48.150 --> 00:23:50.329 -proclaimed white revolutionary who fought alongside 00:23:50.329 --> 00:23:53.069 Black Panther ideals finds his musical structure, 00:23:53.289 --> 00:23:56.549 his salvation, studying bebop with a jazz veteran 00:23:56.549 --> 00:23:58.730 while locked away by the system he hated. Who 00:23:58.730 --> 00:24:00.569 is the jazz veteran? While he was incarcerated, 00:24:00.950 --> 00:24:03.910 Kramer befriended Red Rodney. Red Rodney, the 00:24:03.910 --> 00:24:06.470 trumpeter. Played with Charlie Parker. The legendary 00:24:06.470 --> 00:24:09.369 Red Rodney, yeah. Former member of the iconic 00:24:09.369 --> 00:24:12.269 Charlie Parker Quintet. Rodney became Kramer's 00:24:12.269 --> 00:24:14.730 mentor. Kramer called him his musical father. 00:24:15.049 --> 00:24:17.710 They spent their prison time studying theory, 00:24:17.869 --> 00:24:20.269 composition, playing together in the prison band, 00:24:20.390 --> 00:24:22.849 which was called Street Sounds. That's amazing. 00:24:23.029 --> 00:24:26.109 A bebop legend teaching guitar to the proto -punk 00:24:26.109 --> 00:24:29.029 pioneer in prison. It's unbelievable. And that 00:24:29.029 --> 00:24:31.579 mentorship was foundational. When Kramer got 00:24:31.579 --> 00:24:33.940 out in 1979, he immediately returned to music, 00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:36.440 toured solo, played with Johnny Thunders and 00:24:36.440 --> 00:24:39.000 the kind of ill -fated band Gang War. Yeah, that 00:24:39.000 --> 00:24:41.960 must have been volatile. You'd imagine. And notably, 00:24:42.079 --> 00:24:45.680 he joined Was, not Was, as their first studio 00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:47.960 and touring guitarist, played on their album, 00:24:48.039 --> 00:24:50.339 and that hit single Wheel Me Out. But he still 00:24:50.339 --> 00:24:52.019 struggled with addiction for a while. Oh, yeah. 00:24:52.299 --> 00:24:54.400 Spent much of the 80s battling it. Worked straight 00:24:54.400 --> 00:24:56.880 jobs. He was a carpenter for a bit, I read. Really 00:24:56.880 --> 00:25:00.119 focused on recovery. And by 1998, Kramer successfully 00:25:00.119 --> 00:25:02.819 stopped using alcohol and illegal drugs entirely. 00:25:02.920 --> 00:25:05.720 A complete transformation. It's essential here, 00:25:05.779 --> 00:25:08.359 I think, to pause and just reflect on how powerful 00:25:08.359 --> 00:25:10.839 Kramer's influence already was on the global 00:25:10.839 --> 00:25:13.519 punk scene, even while he was locked up. Absolutely. 00:25:13.880 --> 00:25:17.039 The movement he helped inspire across the Atlantic 00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:19.519 and the UK, they paid tribute to him. You're 00:25:19.519 --> 00:25:22.460 talking about The Clash. Exactly. The Clash released 00:25:22.460 --> 00:25:26.359 the song Jail Guitar Doors as the B -side to 00:25:26.359 --> 00:25:29.680 their single Clash City Rockers. It was a direct 00:25:29.680 --> 00:25:32.599 explicit homage to Kramer's drug troubles and 00:25:32.599 --> 00:25:35.380 his incarceration, immortalizing his struggle 00:25:35.380 --> 00:25:37.579 right there in the punk canon. The opening lines 00:25:37.579 --> 00:25:39.940 are so specific, aren't they? Let me tell you 00:25:39.940 --> 00:25:42.500 about Wayne and his deals of cocaine. Then the 00:25:42.500 --> 00:25:45.539 DEA locked him away. Yeah. That tribute didn't 00:25:45.539 --> 00:25:47.900 just highlight his struggles, it cemented his 00:25:47.900 --> 00:25:51.660 legendary status. A martyr, a pioneer, recognized 00:25:51.660 --> 00:25:53.579 by the bands that followed in his footsteps. 00:25:53.960 --> 00:25:56.019 And that tribute, that song titled Jail Guitar 00:25:56.019 --> 00:25:58.700 Doors, in turn became the defining mission of 00:25:58.700 --> 00:26:00.680 Kramer's later life, didn't it? It absolutely 00:26:00.680 --> 00:26:03.819 did. Which brings us to Section 6, Reunions, 00:26:03.859 --> 00:26:06.319 Legacy, and the Final Chapter, covering roughly 00:26:06.319 --> 00:26:09.079 1992 right up to the present day. So were there 00:26:09.079 --> 00:26:11.799 reunions of the actual MC5? There were attempts, 00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:14.490 yeah. The first public reunion of the surviving 00:26:14.490 --> 00:26:16.750 members, Kramer, Smith, Davis, and Thompson, 00:26:16.910 --> 00:26:20.009 was actually an unbilled short set, maybe 30 00:26:20.009 --> 00:26:24.369 minutes, in 1992 at a tribute concert for Rob 00:26:24.369 --> 00:26:26.690 Tyner in Detroit after he passed away. Just a 00:26:26.690 --> 00:26:29.190 brief flicker then. Yeah. After Fred Smith died 00:26:29.190 --> 00:26:32.210 in 94, the remaining three, Davis, Kramer, and 00:26:32.210 --> 00:26:35.710 Thompson, reformed more formally in 2003. They 00:26:35.710 --> 00:26:37.650 toured pretty extensively for almost a decade 00:26:37.650 --> 00:26:41.819 under the name DKTMC5. DKT Davis, Kramer, Thompson. 00:26:42.440 --> 00:26:44.980 Explicitly. Exactly. They toured with this fantastic 00:26:44.980 --> 00:26:47.740 rotating cast of guests, which really showed 00:26:47.740 --> 00:26:50.039 the reverence people had for the band. Folks 00:26:50.039 --> 00:26:52.319 like Handsome Dick Manitoba from the Dictators 00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:54.539 on lead vocals. Wow, good fit. And Gilby Clark 00:26:54.539 --> 00:26:57.000 from Guns N' Roses playing rhythm guitar, standing 00:26:57.000 --> 00:26:59.740 in for Fred Smith. That lineup lasted until Michael 00:26:59.740 --> 00:27:02.859 Davis sadly died of liver failure in 2012. He 00:27:02.859 --> 00:27:05.460 was 68. Another loss. So Kramer kept the legacy 00:27:05.460 --> 00:27:08.190 alive after that. He did. In 2018, he launched 00:27:08.190 --> 00:27:10.849 the really ambitious MC50 tour, celebrating the 00:27:10.849 --> 00:27:13.130 50th anniversary of Kick Out the Jams. And this 00:27:13.130 --> 00:27:15.369 is a true all -star lineup. Rock heavyweights 00:27:15.369 --> 00:27:17.470 like Kim Thayil and Matt Cameron from Soundgarden. 00:27:17.470 --> 00:27:21.529 And Billy Gold from Faith No More on bass. But 00:27:21.529 --> 00:27:24.289 significantly, that massive anniversary tour, 00:27:24.390 --> 00:27:27.750 which ran into early 2020, It didn't include 00:27:27.750 --> 00:27:30.089 the original drummer, Dennis Thompson. Right. 00:27:30.190 --> 00:27:33.029 Which kind of highlights the ongoing logistical, 00:27:33.089 --> 00:27:35.849 maybe personal complications of getting the remaining 00:27:35.849 --> 00:27:38.369 original members together consistently. But Wayne 00:27:38.369 --> 00:27:41.009 Kramer's most enduring legacy, maybe outside 00:27:41.009 --> 00:27:43.430 the music itself, the thing that really defines 00:27:43.430 --> 00:27:46.849 his second act is that activism, directly inspired 00:27:46.849 --> 00:27:50.529 by the Clash song. Jail Guitar Doors. In 2009, 00:27:50.990 --> 00:27:53.109 Kramer... along with the British musician Billy 00:27:53.109 --> 00:27:55.990 Bragg, and Kramer's wife, Margaret Saadi Kramer, 00:27:56.130 --> 00:27:59.109 co -founded Jail Guitar Doors USA. And the mission. 00:27:59.450 --> 00:28:02.230 Directly inspired by the Clash's tribute. Provide 00:28:02.230 --> 00:28:04.250 musical instruments and music lessons to prison 00:28:04.250 --> 00:28:06.170 inmates across the country, keeping people inside 00:28:06.170 --> 00:28:08.109 the same kind of outlet and structure that have 00:28:08.109 --> 00:28:10.000 helped save him. That's incredibly powerful, 00:28:10.119 --> 00:28:12.619 turning his own experience into that. Intensely 00:28:12.619 --> 00:28:14.920 personal work. Kramer became incredibly active, 00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:17.119 basically touring prisons instead of concert 00:28:17.119 --> 00:28:19.720 halls. Visited over 100 facilities across the 00:28:19.720 --> 00:28:22.240 U .S., turning his criminal downfall into this 00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:24.900 mission for musical rehabilitation. And his later 00:28:24.900 --> 00:28:27.480 career also saw him branch out, didn't it? Film 00:28:27.480 --> 00:28:30.619 and TV composition. Yeah, using his unique skills 00:28:30.619 --> 00:28:33.799 in a totally new context. He scored comedies 00:28:33.799 --> 00:28:35.720 like Talladega Nights, which actually featured 00:28:35.720 --> 00:28:38.279 his solo track, Edge of the Switchblade. Oh, 00:28:38.279 --> 00:28:40.359 yeah. And the documentary Hacking Democracy. 00:28:40.700 --> 00:28:43.339 He found a new creative avenue. And that commitment 00:28:43.339 --> 00:28:45.720 to music theory, the stuff he learned from Red 00:28:45.720 --> 00:28:48.259 Rodney in prison. It even manifested in a new 00:28:48.259 --> 00:28:51.779 musical direction. His 2014 jazz album, Lexington, 00:28:51.980 --> 00:28:54.400 which was inspired by a documentary called The 00:28:54.400 --> 00:28:57.099 Narcotic Farm about the very prison hospital 00:28:57.099 --> 00:29:00.089 he was in. No way. Yeah. He'd reached an hour 00:29:00.089 --> 00:29:03.210 six on Billboard's top jazz charts. He was finally 00:29:03.210 --> 00:29:05.829 using that bebop training he got inside, full 00:29:05.829 --> 00:29:08.269 circle. His commitment to justice went even further, 00:29:08.390 --> 00:29:10.849 too. In 2020, he co -founded the KPO Center. 00:29:11.009 --> 00:29:12.769 Right, focusing on community arts programming 00:29:12.769 --> 00:29:15.470 and outreach, specifically targeting young people 00:29:15.470 --> 00:29:17.589 impacted by the justice system in Los Angeles. 00:29:17.809 --> 00:29:21.150 Still trying to help. Then, in 2022, Kramer announced 00:29:21.150 --> 00:29:24.210 one last big, ambitious project. Yeah, a tour 00:29:24.210 --> 00:29:27.400 under the banner We Are All MC5. and plans for 00:29:27.400 --> 00:29:30.180 a brand new studio album, Heavy Lifting, produced 00:29:30.180 --> 00:29:33.799 by Bob Ezrin. The legendary Bob Ezrin, Pink Floyd, 00:29:34.099 --> 00:29:37.019 Alice Cooper. Yeah, big name producer. This was 00:29:37.019 --> 00:29:39.680 slated to be the first proper MC5 studio album 00:29:39.680 --> 00:29:42.180 in 53 years. Yeah. And original drummer Dennis 00:29:42.180 --> 00:29:44.319 Thompson even participated on a couple of tracks. 00:29:44.539 --> 00:29:46.759 It seemed like a final powerful statement was 00:29:46.759 --> 00:29:50.079 coming. But then the final chapter for the original 00:29:50.079 --> 00:29:52.180 band members just unfolded with heartbreaking 00:29:52.180 --> 00:29:55.730 speed in 2024. It was brutal. Wayne Kramer, the 00:29:55.730 --> 00:29:58.930 pioneer, the activist, the engine. He died on 00:29:58.930 --> 00:30:03.410 February 2nd, 2024, age 75, pancreatic cancer. 00:30:03.549 --> 00:30:05.789 Just devastating. And then just two months later, 00:30:05.970 --> 00:30:08.049 their former manager, the political lightning 00:30:08.049 --> 00:30:11.250 rod, John Sinclair, he died in April 2024. Wow. 00:30:11.430 --> 00:30:13.289 And then less than a month after that, Dennis 00:30:13.289 --> 00:30:15.509 Thompson, the explosive original drummer, the 00:30:15.509 --> 00:30:18.299 last surviving original member of the MC5. He 00:30:18.299 --> 00:30:21.079 died on May 8th, 2024, also age 75. God, just 00:30:21.079 --> 00:30:23.640 bang, bang, bang. An incredible period of loss. 00:30:23.779 --> 00:30:26.279 The absolute end of the original Motor City Five. 00:30:26.480 --> 00:30:28.839 Yeah, end of an era, truly. But there was recognition 00:30:28.839 --> 00:30:30.960 alongside the tragedy, thankfully. Right, the 00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:33.720 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, finally. The NC5 00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:35.599 were inducted in the Musical Excellence category 00:30:35.599 --> 00:30:39.559 in April 2024. Long, long overdue honor. And 00:30:39.559 --> 00:30:42.640 fulfilling Wayne Kramer's final ambition. Heavy 00:30:42.640 --> 00:30:45.779 lifting. Their final album, the first in 53 years, 00:30:45.980 --> 00:30:48.880 was released posthumously on October 18th, 2024, 00:30:49.279 --> 00:30:51.880 completing their studio story even after Wayne 00:30:51.880 --> 00:30:53.859 and Dennis were gone. So what does this all mean 00:30:53.859 --> 00:30:56.259 for us as we kind of head into our final thoughts 00:30:56.259 --> 00:30:58.960 here? Let's just recap that paradox of the MC5. 00:30:59.240 --> 00:31:03.519 Okay. We've traced a band. that just burned with 00:31:03.519 --> 00:31:06.720 this incredible radical idealism, right? Incorporating 00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:09.460 high art influences like free jazz into their 00:31:09.460 --> 00:31:12.299 furious garage rock. Pioneering a sound that 00:31:12.299 --> 00:31:15.319 became punk. Absolutely. Yet they were ultimately 00:31:15.319 --> 00:31:17.819 undone by the sheer intensity of their own political 00:31:17.819 --> 00:31:20.539 controversy, the devastating toll of drug use, 00:31:20.660 --> 00:31:23.180 and just this fundamental incompatibility with 00:31:23.180 --> 00:31:25.160 the commercial music machine. Their legacy is 00:31:25.160 --> 00:31:27.579 huge, though, cemented by that powerful duality. 00:31:27.849 --> 00:31:29.970 They're proto -punk architects, musical geniuses 00:31:29.970 --> 00:31:32.069 on one hand. And on the other, they fostered 00:31:32.069 --> 00:31:34.869 this profound social impact through Wayne Kramer's 00:31:34.869 --> 00:31:37.549 decades of work with Jail Guitar Doors, turning 00:31:37.549 --> 00:31:39.950 his personal tragedy into a resource for redemption 00:31:39.950 --> 00:31:42.549 for others. It's incredible. And that leads us 00:31:42.549 --> 00:31:45.650 to a final provocative thought for you, the listener. 00:31:45.890 --> 00:31:47.890 Something that gets right to the heart of the 00:31:47.890 --> 00:31:50.630 conflict that destroyed, yet somehow also defined, 00:31:50.869 --> 00:31:54.069 the MC5. When you listen to their work, which 00:31:54.069 --> 00:31:56.529 album... really holds their greatest influence. 00:31:56.930 --> 00:32:01.259 Where does the core MC5 power lie? Is it in the 00:32:01.259 --> 00:32:04.299 raw, revolutionary, totally chaotic energy of 00:32:04.299 --> 00:32:07.319 that live debut, Kick Out the Jams, the album 00:32:07.319 --> 00:32:09.539 that got censored, got them dropped, but captured 00:32:09.539 --> 00:32:11.700 them at their absolute volatile political and 00:32:11.700 --> 00:32:15.140 musical peak? That sound of pure, unbridled revolution. 00:32:15.420 --> 00:32:18.299 Or is it maybe in the compressed, fast, aggressively 00:32:18.299 --> 00:32:20.579 hard -edged studio perfection of Back in the 00:32:20.579 --> 00:32:24.099 USA? Produced by John Landau, consciously stripping 00:32:24.099 --> 00:32:26.660 away the sprawl to create this streamlined, undeniable 00:32:26.660 --> 00:32:28.440 prototype for the punk rock sound that would 00:32:28.440 --> 00:32:31.039 follow just a few years later. the sound of structured 00:32:31.039 --> 00:32:33.519 fury. Yeah, it's a tough one. How much did the 00:32:33.519 --> 00:32:36.579 turbulent politics and the, let's face it, overbearing 00:32:36.579 --> 00:32:38.460 outside management, first Sinclair demanding 00:32:38.460 --> 00:32:40.779 revolution, then Landau demanding commercial 00:32:40.779 --> 00:32:43.099 structure, how much did that actually hinder 00:32:43.099 --> 00:32:45.519 their artistic longevity versus just defining 00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:47.559 the unique, short, bright blaze they became? 00:32:47.799 --> 00:32:50.539 It's that debate, isn't it? Between the sound 00:32:50.539 --> 00:32:53.599 of authentic, messy revolution and the sound 00:32:53.599 --> 00:32:55.940 of a more structured, perhaps more forward -looking 00:32:55.940 --> 00:32:59.279 future. Where do you land? We'll leave that question 00:32:59.279 --> 00:33:01.099 with you. Thank you for joining us on this deep 00:33:01.099 --> 00:33:03.000 dive into the history and legacy of the Motor 00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:04.680 City Five. Kick out the jams.