WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.520 Welcome to the Deep Dive. Today, we're tackling 00:00:02.520 --> 00:00:05.459 a figure who's, well, practically defined by 00:00:05.459 --> 00:00:09.140 contradiction, Sean Penn. Yeah, it's quite the 00:00:09.140 --> 00:00:11.220 subject. You've got this incredibly intense, 00:00:11.439 --> 00:00:13.779 decorated actor on one hand. Two Oscars, right? 00:00:13.839 --> 00:00:15.660 Two Oscars, yeah. And then on the other, this 00:00:15.660 --> 00:00:18.859 deeply involved, sometimes really controversial 00:00:18.859 --> 00:00:22.500 global activist. Someone who seems just as comfortable 00:00:22.500 --> 00:00:25.519 on a film set as, I don't know, in a war zone 00:00:25.519 --> 00:00:28.320 or mediating some kind of international dispute. 00:00:28.420 --> 00:00:31.109 It's a lot. It is. And our sources cover pretty 00:00:31.109 --> 00:00:33.369 much everything. His whole career, really, from 00:00:33.369 --> 00:00:36.170 the mid -70s up to, well, basically yesterday, 00:00:36.329 --> 00:00:38.310 with his activism. So the mission today? The 00:00:38.310 --> 00:00:40.590 mission is to sift through it all, find the connections, 00:00:40.869 --> 00:00:43.450 you know. How does the actor relate to the activist? 00:00:43.570 --> 00:00:46.329 How does that same intensity fuel both the acclaimed 00:00:46.329 --> 00:00:48.890 performances and, frankly, some of the personal 00:00:48.890 --> 00:00:51.229 turmoil and political controversies? We want 00:00:51.229 --> 00:00:53.229 to see how he built his career, how the lines 00:00:53.229 --> 00:00:56.329 blurred between his public persona, his private 00:00:56.329 --> 00:00:59.340 life, his legal issues. And his... very direct 00:00:59.340 --> 00:01:02.399 involvement in some major global events, all 00:01:02.399 --> 00:01:04.480 while, you know, just preventing the facts from 00:01:04.480 --> 00:01:06.579 the sources. We're not taking sides here. Exactly. 00:01:06.840 --> 00:01:10.180 So for you listening, this is the shortcut to 00:01:10.180 --> 00:01:13.280 understanding this really unique, often baffling 00:01:13.280 --> 00:01:15.340 public figure. We'll trace it from his early 00:01:15.340 --> 00:01:18.159 days through the Hollywood highs and lows, the 00:01:18.159 --> 00:01:20.420 legal battles, right up to his current focus. 00:01:20.879 --> 00:01:23.060 OK, let's dive in. Where does this intensity 00:01:23.060 --> 00:01:26.989 start? The early years. So, Sean Justin Penn, 00:01:27.209 --> 00:01:31.090 born 1960, Santa Monica, and his family background, 00:01:31.290 --> 00:01:33.950 it's pure Hollywood, isn't it? Oh, completely. 00:01:34.209 --> 00:01:37.109 You've got Leo Penn, his dad, an actor and director, 00:01:37.329 --> 00:01:40.329 and his mom, Eileen Ryan, also a respected actress. 00:01:40.450 --> 00:01:42.909 Right, and Nucci was her maiden name. Yeah, so 00:01:42.909 --> 00:01:45.590 he grew up surrounded by it. The craft, the industry. 00:01:45.810 --> 00:01:48.430 It was literally in the house. And the heritage 00:01:48.430 --> 00:01:50.469 is interesting, too. Mixed background. Mm -hmm. 00:01:50.609 --> 00:01:53.390 Father's side, Jewish. His grandparents emigrated 00:01:53.390 --> 00:01:55.569 from Lithuania, actually, Myrkina. Okay. And 00:01:55.569 --> 00:01:57.969 his mother's side, Catholic, Irish, and Italian 00:01:57.969 --> 00:02:00.370 roots. He wasn't raised religious. No, the sources 00:02:00.370 --> 00:02:02.769 say it was a secular upbringing out in Malibu. 00:02:02.769 --> 00:02:04.730 Malibu back then. Must have been quite the place. 00:02:04.849 --> 00:02:06.750 And he was already making films as a kid. Yeah, 00:02:06.769 --> 00:02:08.810 with his buddies, who just happened to be, you 00:02:08.810 --> 00:02:11.560 know, Emilio Estevez, Charlie Sheen. Wow. So 00:02:11.560 --> 00:02:13.520 that whole group knew each other from way back, 00:02:13.719 --> 00:02:15.900 making short films together in junior high and 00:02:15.900 --> 00:02:18.659 high school. Exactly. Malibu Park Junior High, 00:02:18.919 --> 00:02:22.379 Santa Monica High. Imagine that little film crew. 00:02:22.520 --> 00:02:25.219 Probably pretty competitive, even then. That 00:02:25.219 --> 00:02:27.900 intensity likely started early. And his actual 00:02:27.900 --> 00:02:32.020 first screen appearance was unexpected. Yeah, 00:02:32.080 --> 00:02:35.990 very low -key. 1974, an uncredited extra. On 00:02:35.990 --> 00:02:37.949 Little House on the Prairie, of all things. No 00:02:37.949 --> 00:02:40.610 way. Yeah, his dad directed the episode, so a 00:02:40.610 --> 00:02:42.389 foot in the door, but literally in the background. 00:02:42.629 --> 00:02:44.330 But he moved on pretty quickly from that. Oh, 00:02:44.349 --> 00:02:47.310 yeah. By 1981, he's got his feature film debut 00:02:47.310 --> 00:02:50.490 in Taps, playing a military cadet. Serious stuff. 00:02:50.629 --> 00:02:53.629 And Broadway, too. Yeah. Same year, 1981, in 00:02:53.629 --> 00:02:56.009 a play called Heartland. But then came the role 00:02:56.009 --> 00:02:58.110 that, well, everyone remembers from that era. 00:02:58.250 --> 00:03:00.729 Ah, Jeff Spicoli. Fast Times at Ridgemont High, 00:03:00.830 --> 00:03:04.009 1982. The ultimate surfer stoner dude. Totally 00:03:04.009 --> 00:03:06.590 iconic. And the sources actually credit his character 00:03:06.590 --> 00:03:09.469 with helping push the word dude into mainstream 00:03:09.469 --> 00:03:12.349 conversation. Which is kind of amazing. But you 00:03:12.349 --> 00:03:14.009 get the sense he immediately wanted to distance 00:03:14.009 --> 00:03:16.810 himself from Spicoli. Oh, absolutely. His very 00:03:16.810 --> 00:03:20.610 next big role was a complete U -turn. Bad Boys, 00:03:20.830 --> 00:03:24.180 1983. Playing Mick O 'Brien, this really troubled 00:03:24.180 --> 00:03:26.719 kid. Exactly. And that's where the critics really 00:03:26.719 --> 00:03:29.639 started noticing him as a serious, dramatic actor. 00:03:29.800 --> 00:03:32.240 Got great reviews. It sort of set the template, 00:03:32.360 --> 00:03:35.199 you know? Yeah. Intensity, focus, diving deep 00:03:35.199 --> 00:03:37.759 into troubled characters. He wasn't going to 00:03:37.759 --> 00:03:39.900 be just Spicoli. And that intensity, it wasn't 00:03:39.900 --> 00:03:42.520 just on screen, was it? It started showing up 00:03:42.520 --> 00:03:45.000 in his life choices, connecting his roles to 00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:47.780 real world actions. Definitely. A prime example 00:03:47.780 --> 00:03:50.259 is The Falcon and the Snowman in 85. Where he 00:03:50.259 --> 00:03:52.969 played Andrew Dalton Lee. the real guy convicted 00:03:52.969 --> 00:03:55.590 of spying for the Soviets. Right. Lee got life, 00:03:55.729 --> 00:03:59.150 but was paroled much later in 98. Penn obviously 00:03:59.150 --> 00:04:01.189 had to research him, get into his head for the 00:04:01.189 --> 00:04:03.050 role. And then he did something pretty unconventional 00:04:03.050 --> 00:04:05.349 after Lee got out. Yeah, this is fascinating. 00:04:05.550 --> 00:04:08.789 He hired Lou as his personal assistant. Wow. 00:04:08.930 --> 00:04:11.569 Why? Well, the sources suggest two main reasons. 00:04:11.710 --> 00:04:14.110 One, sort of a thank you to Lee for letting him 00:04:14.110 --> 00:04:17.470 portray him. And two, a genuine belief in rehabilitation. 00:04:18.490 --> 00:04:20.670 Lee had done his time and Penn seemed to feel 00:04:20.670 --> 00:04:23.230 strongly about helping him reintegrate. It's 00:04:23.230 --> 00:04:26.389 this early sign of him using his influence platform 00:04:26.389 --> 00:04:29.149 for something directly linked to a role, but 00:04:29.149 --> 00:04:31.629 with real world consequences. Taking a stand, 00:04:31.730 --> 00:04:34.170 basically. Exactly. And that same conviction, 00:04:34.269 --> 00:04:37.110 maybe that same intensity, led him to step back 00:04:37.110 --> 00:04:39.370 from acting for a bit in the late 80s, early 00:04:39.370 --> 00:04:42.629 90s. Why the break? Seems he was just dissatisfied 00:04:42.629 --> 00:04:44.769 with the industry, the roles, maybe the sources 00:04:44.769 --> 00:04:47.250 mentioned that. So he decided to focus on directing 00:04:47.250 --> 00:04:49.990 instead. Which led to his directing debut. The 00:04:49.990 --> 00:04:53.290 Indian Runner, 1991. Based on a Bruce Springsteen 00:04:53.290 --> 00:04:55.610 song, Highway Patrolman. So he wasn't just duping 00:04:55.610 --> 00:04:57.790 his toe in. He was serious about directing. Very. 00:04:57.970 --> 00:05:00.149 It established him as someone interested in telling 00:05:00.149 --> 00:05:02.329 raw, character -focused stories from behind the 00:05:02.329 --> 00:05:05.439 camera, too. not just the leading man. So when 00:05:05.439 --> 00:05:07.699 he comes back to acting in the 90s, he comes 00:05:07.699 --> 00:05:10.120 back with a vengeance, right? This is where he 00:05:10.120 --> 00:05:12.819 really cements himself as a major force. Hashtag 00:05:12.819 --> 00:05:15.480 tag tag tag 2 .1, establishing stardom and critical 00:05:15.480 --> 00:05:18.839 dominance, 1990s. Oh, absolutely. The 90s are 00:05:18.839 --> 00:05:22.379 arguably his peak in terms of just pure acting 00:05:22.379 --> 00:05:24.899 dominance and transformation. Like in Carlito's 00:05:24.899 --> 00:05:28.279 Way. Yeah, 1993, playing that sleazy, ambitious 00:05:28.279 --> 00:05:31.399 lawyer, David Kleinfeld. Total transformation, 00:05:31.459 --> 00:05:33.600 the hair, the voice. Everything. Got a Golden 00:05:33.600 --> 00:05:36.040 Globe nomination for that one. Critics were raving 00:05:36.040 --> 00:05:39.339 about how he just embodied this corrupt character. 00:05:39.759 --> 00:05:42.120 But the big one, the one that really vaulted 00:05:42.120 --> 00:05:44.899 him into the top tier, was Dead Man Walking. 00:05:45.259 --> 00:05:48.639 1995. Playing Matthew Ponslet, the death row 00:05:48.639 --> 00:05:52.959 inmate. Racist. Murderer. Just a terrifyingly 00:05:52.959 --> 00:05:55.779 intense, quiet performance. His first Oscar nomination. 00:05:56.019 --> 00:05:58.199 Yes, and that's when Roger Ebert called him the 00:05:58.199 --> 00:06:01.019 most powerful actor of his generation. High praise. 00:06:01.360 --> 00:06:03.220 He really committed to these dark, difficult 00:06:03.220 --> 00:06:05.500 roles. Totally. He wasn't afraid of them, and 00:06:05.500 --> 00:06:08.120 he kept winning awards. Best actor at Cannes 00:06:08.120 --> 00:06:10.800 in 97 for She's So Lovely. Right, the romantic 00:06:10.800 --> 00:06:13.240 drama. Showing some range there. Exactly. And 00:06:13.240 --> 00:06:15.240 then another Oscar nomination just two years 00:06:15.240 --> 00:06:17.620 later for Sweet and Lowdown. Woody Allen's film. 00:06:18.279 --> 00:06:20.620 Playing the fictional jazz guitarist, Emmett 00:06:20.620 --> 00:06:23.589 Ray. Yeah, egotistical, kind of flawed character, 00:06:24.149 --> 00:06:26.970 another complex role, another nomination. He 00:06:26.970 --> 00:06:29.470 was just incredibly consistent. Moving between 00:06:29.470 --> 00:06:30.889 these really different characters, different 00:06:30.889 --> 00:06:33.730 styles. And all this time, he's still directing, 00:06:33.790 --> 00:06:36.430 too. He did The Crossing Guard in 95. And what 00:06:36.430 --> 00:06:38.730 was the critical take on his directing style? 00:06:39.230 --> 00:06:41.250 Generally focused on that same intensity, you 00:06:41.250 --> 00:06:43.870 know. Critics talked about a raw searching style, 00:06:44.029 --> 00:06:47.230 a focus on brute emotional force, very much aligned 00:06:47.230 --> 00:06:50.250 with his acting. Hashtag tag tag 2 .2 the Oscar 00:06:50.250 --> 00:06:53.050 years and genre flexibility 2000. Okay, so the 00:06:53.050 --> 00:06:55.250 2000s is where the Academy Awards really start 00:06:55.250 --> 00:06:57.490 coming in. Kicked off with his third nomination 00:06:57.490 --> 00:07:00.730 for I Am Sam in 2001. Playing the father with 00:07:00.730 --> 00:07:03.129 a developmental disability. Right. But the first 00:07:03.129 --> 00:07:06.189 win came a couple of years later, 2003, Mystic 00:07:06.189 --> 00:07:10.009 River. Ah, yes. Playing Jimmy Markham, the father 00:07:10.009 --> 00:07:11.889 seeking revenge after his daughter's murder. 00:07:12.069 --> 00:07:14.829 Incredible performance. Just raw grief and rage. 00:07:15.110 --> 00:07:17.670 And that one swept the board. Oscar, Golden Globe, 00:07:17.769 --> 00:07:19.389 Critics' Choice. He was definitely on a roll. 00:07:19.470 --> 00:07:22.009 And showing flexibility too, right? Wasn't 21 00:07:22.009 --> 00:07:24.269 grams around the same time? Same year, 2003. 00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:26.939 Totally different film, nonlinear, psychological 00:07:26.939 --> 00:07:29.920 drama. Got a BAFTA nomination for that. He was 00:07:29.920 --> 00:07:31.959 really operating at his peak. And then came the 00:07:31.959 --> 00:07:36.279 second Oscar win for a role that felt different, 00:07:36.420 --> 00:07:39.879 more outwardly heroic in a way. Harvey Milk in 00:07:39.879 --> 00:07:42.339 Milk 2008. Playing the gay rights activist and 00:07:42.339 --> 00:07:44.720 politician. Yeah, a massive transformation again. 00:07:44.779 --> 00:07:47.959 But capturing Milk's... optimism his energy his 00:07:47.959 --> 00:07:51.480 uh his charisma the reviews were phenomenal people 00:07:51.480 --> 00:07:53.220 talked about him completely disappearing into 00:07:53.220 --> 00:07:55.420 the role they did words like transmigration were 00:07:55.420 --> 00:07:58.300 used like he inhabited milk it won him the second 00:07:58.300 --> 00:08:00.779 best actor oscar plus the screen actors guild 00:08:00.779 --> 00:08:02.839 award so he's playing this iconic historically 00:08:02.839 --> 00:08:05.800 significant figure And around the same time, 00:08:05.839 --> 00:08:08.259 his directing work is also getting major recognition. 00:08:08.560 --> 00:08:11.779 Absolutely. Into the Wild, 2007, the biographical 00:08:11.779 --> 00:08:14.040 survival story. About Christopher McCandless. 00:08:14.139 --> 00:08:17.379 Right. And that film was a huge critical success 00:08:17.379 --> 00:08:19.199 for him as a director. It got him a Directors 00:08:19.199 --> 00:08:21.819 Guild of America nomination, which is a big deal. 00:08:22.040 --> 00:08:24.540 So directing wasn't just a side project. It was 00:08:24.540 --> 00:08:27.379 a serious parallel career track. Definitely. 00:08:27.620 --> 00:08:30.279 He proved he could excel on both sides of the 00:08:30.279 --> 00:08:33.190 camera at the highest level. So as his career 00:08:33.190 --> 00:08:36.149 moves into, say, the last decade or so, we see 00:08:36.149 --> 00:08:38.889 him shifting gears again, moving into television. 00:08:39.110 --> 00:08:41.330 Yeah, which is interesting. A lot of big film 00:08:41.330 --> 00:08:43.750 actors started doing high -profile TV around 00:08:43.750 --> 00:08:45.950 then. He jumped in, too. Like with The First. 00:08:46.149 --> 00:08:49.389 Right, 2018. That Hulu series about the first 00:08:49.389 --> 00:08:52.049 manned mission to Mars, he played the lead astronaut, 00:08:52.330 --> 00:08:55.429 Tom Haggerty. And it's funny, even then, critics 00:08:55.429 --> 00:08:58.269 were still bringing up... Spicoli, yeah. One 00:08:58.269 --> 00:09:00.539 review mentioned he was still... game to be a 00:09:00.539 --> 00:09:02.600 goofball that Spicoli was still in there somewhere. 00:09:02.820 --> 00:09:04.899 That shadow really follows him, doesn't it? Even 00:09:04.899 --> 00:09:07.940 in a serious sci -fi drama. Seems like it. Then 00:09:07.940 --> 00:09:10.759 he did another big TV role, requiring even more 00:09:10.759 --> 00:09:14.559 transformation, Gaslit, in 2022. Playing John 00:09:14.559 --> 00:09:16.740 Mitchell, Nixon's attorney general during Watergate. 00:09:16.840 --> 00:09:19.519 Yeah, under heavy prosthetics. A completely different 00:09:19.519 --> 00:09:22.159 kind of role again. Historical, political thriller. 00:09:22.600 --> 00:09:24.860 Shows his range is still there. But maybe the 00:09:24.860 --> 00:09:26.899 biggest recent shift isn't acting or directing. 00:09:27.500 --> 00:09:30.570 It's... Writing. It seems so. He published a 00:09:30.570 --> 00:09:34.029 novel in 2018, Bob Honey, who just do stuff. 00:09:34.409 --> 00:09:37.009 Satirical thing. And a follow up. Yep. Bob Honey 00:09:37.009 --> 00:09:40.450 sings Jimmy Crack Corn in 2019. And he made some 00:09:40.450 --> 00:09:42.750 pretty strong statements about this shift, didn't 00:09:42.750 --> 00:09:45.950 he? He did. Very public. Said writing would, 00:09:46.009 --> 00:09:48.230 quote, dominate my creative energies for the 00:09:48.230 --> 00:09:50.850 foreseeable future. Wow. And he said something 00:09:50.850 --> 00:09:53.289 about filmmaking, too. Yeah, that he no longer 00:09:53.289 --> 00:09:55.990 had a generic interest in making films, which 00:09:55.990 --> 00:09:58.429 is a pretty definitive statement from a two time 00:09:58.429 --> 00:10:00.830 Oscar winner and respected director. So it sounds 00:10:00.830 --> 00:10:03.190 like he's consciously redirecting that famous 00:10:03.190 --> 00:10:06.330 intensity away from film towards literature. 00:10:06.490 --> 00:10:10.210 And as we have to discuss his activism. Exactly. 00:10:10.210 --> 00:10:12.210 Which brings us to the other side of the coin, 00:10:12.330 --> 00:10:15.190 the personal turmoil and the headline grabbing 00:10:15.190 --> 00:10:17.919 activism. Right. Because you really can't talk 00:10:17.919 --> 00:10:20.879 about Sean Penn without talking about the volatility, 00:10:21.220 --> 00:10:23.820 the controversies that often ran parallel to 00:10:23.820 --> 00:10:26.279 his acting success. No, they're deeply intertwined, 00:10:26.299 --> 00:10:28.139 starting with his high -profile relationships. 00:10:29.039 --> 00:10:31.639 Hashtag, tag, tag, tag, 3 .1 marriages and high 00:10:31.639 --> 00:10:33.620 -profile relationships. Before Madonna, there 00:10:33.620 --> 00:10:35.740 were others, right? Elizabeth McGovern, Susan 00:10:35.740 --> 00:10:38.200 Sarandon. Yeah, early relationships. But the 00:10:38.200 --> 00:10:41.059 marriage to Madonna in 85, that really put his 00:10:41.059 --> 00:10:44.419 private life and his temper under a global microscope. 00:10:44.740 --> 00:10:46.580 They got married right around her birthday, his 00:10:46.580 --> 00:10:49.879 birthday. Big media event. Huge. She dedicated 00:10:49.879 --> 00:10:52.059 True Blue to him, called him the coolest guy 00:10:52.059 --> 00:10:54.759 in the universe. It was this massive celebrity 00:10:54.759 --> 00:10:57.519 power couple moment. But it soured pretty quickly. 00:10:57.919 --> 00:11:00.019 Or at least the public perception did. Well, 00:11:00.059 --> 00:11:01.919 the sources are clear the marriage was marked 00:11:01.919 --> 00:11:04.980 by conflict. Specifically, it mentions Penn's 00:11:04.980 --> 00:11:07.919 violent outbursts against the press. He was constantly 00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:10.399 clashing with paparazzi. And that led to legal 00:11:10.399 --> 00:11:13.039 issues, which we'll get to. But the marriage 00:11:13.039 --> 00:11:16.220 itself was unstable. Seems so. She filed for 00:11:16.220 --> 00:11:19.220 divorce in 87, then withdrew it, then filed again 00:11:19.220 --> 00:11:22.100 in early 89, and that time it stuck. And for 00:11:22.100 --> 00:11:24.139 years there were these persistent rumors and 00:11:24.139 --> 00:11:27.549 allegations about domestic violence. Right. That 00:11:27.549 --> 00:11:29.809 narrative was out there for a long time in tabloids 00:11:29.809 --> 00:11:32.169 and even some biographies. But Madonna addressed 00:11:32.169 --> 00:11:35.610 it directly later on. Crucially, yes. In 2015, 00:11:35.870 --> 00:11:38.009 she issued a formal statement, denied he'd ever 00:11:38.009 --> 00:11:40.429 struck her, called the stories completely outrageous, 00:11:40.730 --> 00:11:43.289 malicious, reckless, and false. So that official 00:11:43.289 --> 00:11:46.649 denial is a key part of the record. It complicates 00:11:46.649 --> 00:11:48.750 the earlier narrative significantly. Absolutely. 00:11:48.889 --> 00:11:51.149 Highlights how public perception and reality 00:11:51.149 --> 00:11:54.409 can diverge, especially with intense media scrutiny. 00:11:54.649 --> 00:11:57.549 After Madonna, He had a long relationship with 00:11:57.549 --> 00:11:59.669 Robin Wright. Very long. They were together for 00:11:59.669 --> 00:12:02.909 years before marrying in 96. Had two kids, Dylan 00:12:02.909 --> 00:12:05.350 and Hopper. But that marriage also had its share 00:12:05.350 --> 00:12:07.529 of ups and downs. Definitely. They actually split 00:12:07.529 --> 00:12:10.389 briefly in 95 before they got married. He dated 00:12:10.389 --> 00:12:12.769 Jewel during that time. Oh, Ray. And then after 00:12:12.769 --> 00:12:16.289 marrying between 2007 and 2009, it was this cycle 00:12:16.289 --> 00:12:20.730 of filing for divorce or separation, then reconciling, 00:12:20.730 --> 00:12:23.629 then filing again. Very turbulent publicly. Until 00:12:23.629 --> 00:12:25.990 it finally ended in 2010. Yeah, the divorce was 00:12:25.990 --> 00:12:28.309 finalized then. And more recently. There was 00:12:28.309 --> 00:12:32.309 Charlize Theron. From about 2013 to 2015. Lots 00:12:32.309 --> 00:12:35.470 of media buzz, engagement rumors. But she denied 00:12:35.470 --> 00:12:37.389 they were ever engaged. Right. She clarified 00:12:37.389 --> 00:12:39.710 that later. Then a brief marriage to Layla George, 00:12:39.990 --> 00:12:42.929 daughter of Vincent D 'Onofrio. Married in 2020. 00:12:43.029 --> 00:12:45.470 She filed for divorce about a year later. Finalized 00:12:45.470 --> 00:12:49.190 in 2022. So a pattern of intense but often short 00:12:49.190 --> 00:12:51.590 -lived or tumultuous relationships. Seems to 00:12:51.590 --> 00:12:53.549 be. And his current relationship, starting in 00:12:53.549 --> 00:12:56.950 2023, is with Olga Korchayeva, who is Ukrainian. 00:12:57.250 --> 00:12:59.169 Which connects directly to his recent activism 00:12:59.169 --> 00:13:02.250 focus. Interesting. Yeah, the personal and the 00:13:02.250 --> 00:13:05.009 political often seem to intersect for him. Hashtag, 00:13:05.009 --> 00:13:08.029 tag, tag, tag, 3 .2, a history of legal issues. 00:13:08.330 --> 00:13:09.750 Okay, let's talk about the legal side. Yeah. 00:13:09.809 --> 00:13:12.070 Because his temper, especially with the press, 00:13:12.250 --> 00:13:15.120 led to actual charges and even jail time. It 00:13:15.120 --> 00:13:17.240 did. There's a clear pattern, especially in the 00:13:17.240 --> 00:13:19.480 80s. Starts around 85 in Nashville. What happened 00:13:19.480 --> 00:13:22.759 there? He pled no contest to assaulting two journalists 00:13:22.759 --> 00:13:25.779 trying to photograph him and Madonna. Got fined. 00:13:25.779 --> 00:13:28.220 Just a fine. Yeah, 50 bucks each charge. But 00:13:28.220 --> 00:13:30.840 then early 86. charged with assaulting a correspondent 00:13:30.840 --> 00:13:34.720 in Macau. Then June 86, misdemeanor battery charge 00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:37.419 for allegedly hitting songwriter David Wolinsky 00:13:37.419 --> 00:13:40.179 in a nightclub. Over Madonna again. Wolinsky 00:13:40.179 --> 00:13:42.639 claimed Penn accused him of trying to kiss her. 00:13:42.779 --> 00:13:45.360 So, yeah, repeated confrontations. And these 00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:47.639 incidents eventually caught up with him. Led 00:13:47.639 --> 00:13:50.320 to jail. Right, because he was on probation from 00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:54.080 those earlier incidents. In April 87, while filming 00:13:54.080 --> 00:13:57.679 Colors, he punched an extra on set. Just punched 00:13:57.679 --> 00:14:00.279 an extra. Or apparently. That violated his probation, 00:14:00.559 --> 00:14:03.440 resulted in a 60 -day jail sentence for the assault 00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:05.500 and reckless driving. Did he serve the full time? 00:14:05.720 --> 00:14:09.200 No, he served 33 days. But still, actual jail 00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:12.039 time. A pretty serious consequence. And there's 00:14:12.039 --> 00:14:14.179 that wild story from when he was inside. Oh, 00:14:14.240 --> 00:14:16.159 the Richard Ramirez anecdote? Yeah, Penn wrote 00:14:16.159 --> 00:14:18.019 about this himself. He was in the same jail as 00:14:18.019 --> 00:14:20.409 the Night Stalker. Apparently. Ramirez recognized 00:14:20.409 --> 00:14:23.330 him, wrote him a note. And Penn's response? Classic 00:14:23.330 --> 00:14:25.669 Penn, really. Wrote back immediately saying he 00:14:25.669 --> 00:14:28.250 felt zero connection and hoped Ramirez got the 00:14:28.250 --> 00:14:31.490 gas chamber. Just blunt, harsh moral judgment. 00:14:31.710 --> 00:14:35.029 Wow. Even in jail, corresponding with a serial 00:14:35.029 --> 00:14:37.529 killer. Okay, fast forward a couple of decades. 00:14:37.850 --> 00:14:40.110 The temper issues didn't entirely disappear. 00:14:40.389 --> 00:14:43.429 No. 2009, another run -in with a photographer, 00:14:43.750 --> 00:14:46.330 Frank Madeljian. Highly publicized. What was 00:14:46.330 --> 00:14:48.549 the outcome of that one? pled no contest again 00:14:48.549 --> 00:14:51.610 to a misdemeanor in 2010, but the sentence was 00:14:51.610 --> 00:14:54.409 steeper this time. How so? 300 hours of community 00:14:54.409 --> 00:14:58.889 service and 36 hours of mandatory anger management 00:14:58.889 --> 00:15:01.789 counseling. The court was clearly trying to address 00:15:01.789 --> 00:15:03.929 the pattern. And then there's the Lee Daniels 00:15:03.929 --> 00:15:06.590 lawsuit in 2015. This seems different, more about 00:15:06.590 --> 00:15:09.070 reputation management. Exactly. Daniels made 00:15:09.070 --> 00:15:11.850 comments in an interview linking Penn to a rumored 00:15:11.850 --> 00:15:14.070 history of domestic violence while defending 00:15:14.070 --> 00:15:17.139 another actor, Terrence Howard. And Penn sued 00:15:17.139 --> 00:15:21.360 for defamation for $10 million. Yep. But the 00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:24.580 basis of the suit was very specific. Penn argued 00:15:24.580 --> 00:15:26.779 he had never been arrested for or charged with 00:15:26.779 --> 00:15:29.320 domestic violence. Ah, so focusing on the legal 00:15:29.320 --> 00:15:31.899 record, not necessarily denying any and all past 00:15:31.899 --> 00:15:34.879 behavior. Precisely. It was a strategic legal 00:15:34.879 --> 00:15:38.299 move. And it worked, in a way. How so? The suit 00:15:38.299 --> 00:15:41.259 was dropped in 2016, but only after Daniels publicly 00:15:41.259 --> 00:15:43.830 apologized and retracted the statement. Penn 00:15:43.830 --> 00:15:46.230 made his point, very forcefully, about how his 00:15:46.230 --> 00:15:48.409 past could be legally characterized. It's like 00:15:48.409 --> 00:15:50.470 that same intensity that refusal to back down 00:15:50.470 --> 00:15:52.909 was channeled from physical confrontation into 00:15:52.909 --> 00:15:55.509 legal strategy. Yeah, it's a fascinating evolution. 00:15:55.629 --> 00:15:57.850 And that same energy then gets poured into his 00:15:57.850 --> 00:16:00.450 political activism, which becomes increasingly 00:16:00.450 --> 00:16:03.190 high stakes. Right, because his activism isn't 00:16:03.190 --> 00:16:04.809 just signing petitions. He puts himself right 00:16:04.809 --> 00:16:06.990 in the middle of things, often controversially. 00:16:06.990 --> 00:16:09.370 Oh, absolutely. He goes from fighting paparazzi 00:16:09.370 --> 00:16:12.950 to, well, engaging with... presidents and warlords. 00:16:13.090 --> 00:16:15.669 It's a major shift. This really ramps up during 00:16:15.669 --> 00:16:17.870 the lead up to the Iraq war, right? With that 00:16:17.870 --> 00:16:20.009 ad in the Washington Post. Yeah. October 2002 00:16:20.009 --> 00:16:26.129 cost him a reported $56 ,000. $56 ,000 for an 00:16:26.129 --> 00:16:29.230 ad. Yep. An open letter directly to President 00:16:29.230 --> 00:16:32.049 George W. Bush urging him not to invade Iraq. 00:16:32.330 --> 00:16:34.990 What else did it say? It was pretty sharply critical, 00:16:35.190 --> 00:16:37.529 accused the administration of dismantling civil 00:16:37.529 --> 00:16:39.889 liberties, having this simplistic and inflammatory 00:16:39.889 --> 00:16:43.210 view of good and evil. Strong stuff. And he didn't 00:16:43.210 --> 00:16:45.769 just write letters. He went there. He did. Visited 00:16:45.769 --> 00:16:49.250 Iraq briefly in December 2002. Then in 2005, 00:16:49.409 --> 00:16:52.350 he went to Iran. As an actor? No, as a journalist. 00:16:52.529 --> 00:16:54.309 Okay. For the San Francisco Chronicle, attended 00:16:54.309 --> 00:16:56.429 a Friday prayer service at Tehran University. 00:16:56.669 --> 00:16:59.049 He was embedding himself. Of course, this kind 00:16:59.049 --> 00:17:01.870 of high -profile celebrity activism invites parody. 00:17:02.299 --> 00:17:05.359 Right. Team Angarica, World Police, the 2004 00:17:05.359 --> 00:17:07.859 film from the South Park guys. They really went 00:17:07.859 --> 00:17:10.420 after him. Oh, yeah. Portrayed him as this naive 00:17:10.420 --> 00:17:13.920 idealist talking about Iraq having rainbow skies 00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:16.960 and rivers made of chocolate. Pure satire. And 00:17:16.960 --> 00:17:19.960 Penn's reaction was predictable. Let's just say 00:17:19.960 --> 00:17:22.599 he wasn't amused. wrote this furious letter back 00:17:22.599 --> 00:17:25.440 to Trey Parker and Matt Stone, sarcastically 00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:27.799 invited them to tour Iraq with him, basically 00:17:27.799 --> 00:17:29.859 told them off. He doesn't take criticism lightly. 00:17:30.059 --> 00:17:32.160 Not at all. And his own political language was 00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:35.359 often just as harsh. He called Dick Cheney and 00:17:35.359 --> 00:17:38.420 Condoleezza Rice villainously and criminally 00:17:38.420 --> 00:17:41.619 obscene people. So not exactly diplomatic. No. 00:17:41.720 --> 00:17:45.019 He was using his platform to voice really strong, 00:17:45.160 --> 00:17:48.559 often inflammatory opposition. But at the same 00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:50.539 time, he was also getting involved in hands -on 00:17:50.539 --> 00:17:53.519 humanitarian work. Yeah. Like after Hurricane 00:17:53.519 --> 00:17:56.240 Katrina. Yeah, September 2005, he went down to 00:17:56.240 --> 00:17:58.400 New Orleans. The sources say he was physically 00:17:58.400 --> 00:18:00.720 involved in rescues, pulling people from flooded 00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:03.359 homes. But that effort drew criticism too, didn't 00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:06.460 it? The whole PR stunt accusation. It did. Because 00:18:06.460 --> 00:18:08.819 he had a photographer with him. Critics questioned 00:18:08.819 --> 00:18:11.099 his motives. How did he respond? He wrote an 00:18:11.099 --> 00:18:13.730 article for HuffPost defending himself. Denied 00:18:13.730 --> 00:18:16.450 it was a stunt, said it was genuine aid. But 00:18:16.450 --> 00:18:19.349 it shows that dilemma, right? Can a celebrity 00:18:19.349 --> 00:18:21.890 do good work without it being seen through the 00:18:21.890 --> 00:18:24.069 lens of fame? A constant challenge for famous 00:18:24.069 --> 00:18:27.390 activists. But his efforts became much more organized 00:18:27.390 --> 00:18:30.490 after the Haiti earthquake in 2010. Massively 00:18:30.490 --> 00:18:33.490 so. That's when he founded JP Haitian Relief 00:18:33.490 --> 00:18:36.359 Organization, JPHRO. And this wasn't just writing 00:18:36.359 --> 00:18:38.960 a check. No, this was a huge operational commitment. 00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:42.160 They ran a camp for like 55 ,000 displaced people. 00:18:42.519 --> 00:18:45.619 He was very hands -on, very visible there for 00:18:45.619 --> 00:18:47.500 a long time. To the point where he got an official 00:18:47.500 --> 00:18:51.200 title. Yeah, this is remarkable. In 2012, Haiti's 00:18:51.200 --> 00:18:53.599 President Michel Martelly appointed him ambassador 00:18:53.599 --> 00:18:56.180 at large for Haiti. Ambassador at large. The 00:18:56.180 --> 00:18:58.660 first non -Haitian citizen ever to hold that 00:18:58.660 --> 00:19:01.460 diplomatic role. Shows the depth of his commitment 00:19:01.460 --> 00:19:04.190 there. And that work evolved into CORE. Right. 00:19:04.269 --> 00:19:07.349 Community organized relief effort. CORE expanded 00:19:07.349 --> 00:19:09.990 beyond Haiti, became very active during the COVID 00:19:09.990 --> 00:19:12.230 pandemic in the U .S., setting up free testing 00:19:12.230 --> 00:19:14.990 sites. So significant logistical and humanitarian 00:19:14.990 --> 00:19:18.190 work. Right. But even CORE faced some controversy. 00:19:18.230 --> 00:19:20.710 It did, specifically around labor issues. What 00:19:20.710 --> 00:19:23.289 happened? In late 2021, the National Labor Relations 00:19:23.289 --> 00:19:27.069 Board, the NLRB, filed a complaint. Against Penn 00:19:27.069 --> 00:19:30.779 and CORE. Yes. Alleging that Penn had... impliedly 00:19:30.779 --> 00:19:32.819 threatened employees. Threatened them for what? 00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:35.500 For complaining about working conditions. The 00:19:35.500 --> 00:19:37.980 complaint mentioned demands for 18 -hour workdays 00:19:37.980 --> 00:19:40.660 during the intense COVID response period. So 00:19:40.660 --> 00:19:42.720 that same intensity he applies to everything 00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:45.660 else maybe created issues within his own organization. 00:19:46.059 --> 00:19:48.119 That's what the complaint suggests. That the 00:19:48.119 --> 00:19:50.559 demanding all -consuming approach might have 00:19:50.559 --> 00:19:53.119 clashed with standard labor practices and worker 00:19:53.119 --> 00:19:56.480 protections. Hashtag tag tag 4 .3 controversial 00:19:56.480 --> 00:19:59.000 global alignments. Okay, this is where things 00:19:59.000 --> 00:20:01.140 get really complex. His alignments with certain 00:20:01.140 --> 00:20:04.140 world leaders, especially considering his progressive 00:20:04.140 --> 00:20:07.079 image from rolls like milk. Yeah, this is probably 00:20:07.079 --> 00:20:09.359 the most pointed area of contradiction for many 00:20:09.359 --> 00:20:12.240 observals. His friendship with Hugo Chavez, the 00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:14.700 late president of Venezuela. Chavez was known 00:20:14.700 --> 00:20:17.680 for his anti -U .S. stance, but also for increasingly 00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:21.220 authoritarian moves. Right. But Chavez publicly 00:20:21.220 --> 00:20:24.460 praised Penn, read his anti -Bush letter on TV, 00:20:24.660 --> 00:20:27.279 and Penn became a staunch defender of Chavez. 00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:29.480 To the point of defending his regime against 00:20:29.480 --> 00:20:33.670 criticism. Very much so. Famously, in 2010, Penn 00:20:33.670 --> 00:20:35.829 called for journalists who called Chavez a dictator 00:20:35.829 --> 00:20:38.880 to be jailed. Jailed. For calling a leader a 00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:40.880 dictator. That's what he said. And when Chavez 00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:43.140 died, Penn called him a global champion for the 00:20:43.140 --> 00:20:45.619 poor. Unwavering support. And he also met with 00:20:45.619 --> 00:20:48.599 Raul Castro in Cuba. Interviewed him in 2008. 00:20:48.980 --> 00:20:51.440 So the core criticism here is. The clash with 00:20:51.440 --> 00:20:54.099 his image as a champion of rights, especially 00:20:54.099 --> 00:20:57.519 LGBTQ plus rights given milk. Both the Chavez 00:20:57.519 --> 00:21:00.420 and Castro regimes had poor records on LGBTQ 00:21:00.420 --> 00:21:03.039 plus issues. How did the sources explain this? 00:21:03.099 --> 00:21:05.279 Does he address the contradiction? Not directly 00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:08.380 in the materials we reviewed. It seems for Penn, 00:21:08.599 --> 00:21:11.660 maybe the anti -imperialist stance or the focus 00:21:11.660 --> 00:21:14.579 on poverty alleviation in those specific relationships 00:21:14.579 --> 00:21:18.400 took precedence over alignment on social issues. 00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:21.619 He seems to compartmentalize his alliances. Willing 00:21:21.619 --> 00:21:24.740 to overlook certain aspects for a perceived greater 00:21:24.740 --> 00:21:27.619 good, perhaps? Perhaps. Or maybe he just saw 00:21:27.619 --> 00:21:29.519 those leaders differently than their critics 00:21:29.519 --> 00:21:32.019 did. It's hard to say definitively from the outside. 00:21:32.279 --> 00:21:35.009 But the contradiction is stark. And then came 00:21:35.009 --> 00:21:36.769 maybe the most controversial meeting of all, 00:21:37.430 --> 00:21:40.450 El Chapo. Yeah, 2016. While Joaquin El Chapo 00:21:40.450 --> 00:21:42.569 Guzman, the head of the Sinaloa cartel, was a 00:21:42.569 --> 00:21:45.150 fugitive, Penn secretly met him. How did that 00:21:45.150 --> 00:21:47.809 even happen? It was brokered by the Mexican actress, 00:21:48.029 --> 00:21:50.289 Kite Del Castillo. The goal was an interview 00:21:50.289 --> 00:21:52.710 for Rolling Stone. And the details were just... 00:21:53.329 --> 00:21:56.490 Bizarre. Totally. Leaked texts later suggested 00:21:56.490 --> 00:21:58.650 El Chapo barely knew who PIN was. He was more 00:21:58.650 --> 00:22:00.509 interested in Caita Castillo. What was the official 00:22:00.509 --> 00:22:02.970 reaction? Not good. The White House called the 00:22:02.970 --> 00:22:05.869 interview maddening, said it potentially interfered 00:22:05.869 --> 00:22:08.809 with efforts to capture Guzman. Did PIN face 00:22:08.809 --> 00:22:11.490 legal trouble over it? Mexican authorities investigated, 00:22:11.809 --> 00:22:14.410 wanted to question him. It was a major international 00:22:14.410 --> 00:22:17.289 incident, blurring the lines between journalism, 00:22:17.589 --> 00:22:20.690 activism and, well, associating with one of the 00:22:20.690 --> 00:22:23.109 world's most wanted criminals. It really demonstrates 00:22:23.109 --> 00:22:26.769 his willingness to operate way outside conventional 00:22:26.769 --> 00:22:29.670 boundaries. No fear of the risk, it seems. None 00:22:29.670 --> 00:22:32.390 whatsoever, which we also saw maybe less dramatically, 00:22:32.470 --> 00:22:34.630 but still controversially with the Falklands 00:22:34.630 --> 00:22:37.640 issue. Right. 2012. meeting with Argentina's 00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:39.740 president, Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner. And 00:22:39.740 --> 00:22:42.640 he wades right into the sovereignty dispute with 00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:45.660 the UK over the Falkland Islands, or Malvinas, 00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:47.599 as Argentina calls them. What exactly did he 00:22:47.599 --> 00:22:50.339 say? He talked about opposing ridiculous demonstrations 00:22:50.339 --> 00:22:53.259 of colonialism and pushed for dialogue. Which 00:22:53.259 --> 00:22:55.579 predictably caused outrage in Britain. Oh, yeah. 00:22:55.859 --> 00:22:58.480 British tabloids and politicians slammed him, 00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:01.240 called his comments moronic. Did he walk it back? 00:23:01.720 --> 00:23:04.700 He clarified later, said his comments were misrepresented, 00:23:04.759 --> 00:23:07.339 that he was really criticizing Prince William's 00:23:07.339 --> 00:23:10.980 military deployment there as preemptive intimidation. 00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:14.200 He framed it as opposing militarism, advocating 00:23:14.200 --> 00:23:17.140 for diplomacy and negotiation, even suggesting 00:23:17.140 --> 00:23:19.940 things like immigration changes. Hashtag hashtag 00:23:19.940 --> 00:23:23.599 4 .4 advocacy and conflict in Ukraine. So that 00:23:23.599 --> 00:23:25.720 brings us to his most recent and perhaps most 00:23:25.720 --> 00:23:29.450 sustained geopolitical focus. Ukraine. Right. 00:23:29.750 --> 00:23:32.190 This seems to be where a lot of his energy has 00:23:32.190 --> 00:23:35.029 been directed lately. He was there in 2022 filming 00:23:35.029 --> 00:23:37.990 a documentary. Superpower. profiling president 00:23:37.990 --> 00:23:41.210 zielinski exactly he was embedded meeting officials 00:23:41.210 --> 00:23:44.130 attending briefings right up close and he was 00:23:44.130 --> 00:23:45.930 actually there when the full -scale invasion 00:23:45.930 --> 00:23:49.029 began he was which led to that incredible story 00:23:49.029 --> 00:23:50.970 of him and his team having to abandon their car 00:23:50.970 --> 00:23:53.230 and walk for miles to the polish border to get 00:23:53.230 --> 00:23:55.910 out that's intense real personal risk absolutely 00:23:55.910 --> 00:23:57.750 and his statements afterwards were completely 00:23:57.750 --> 00:24:00.190 unambiguous total support for ukraine like that 00:24:00.190 --> 00:24:02.759 quote about america losing its soul If we allow 00:24:02.759 --> 00:24:06.400 Ukraine to fight alone, our soul as America is 00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:10.180 lost. Very strong words. Led to Russia sanctioning 00:24:10.180 --> 00:24:12.299 him, putting him on their blacklist. And then 00:24:12.299 --> 00:24:15.119 came that symbolic gesture in Kyiv. The Oscar 00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:18.819 loan. November 2022. Yeah. He physically gave 00:24:18.819 --> 00:24:21.640 one of his Oscar statuettes to President Zelensky. 00:24:21.740 --> 00:24:23.599 What was the condition? When you win, bring it 00:24:23.599 --> 00:24:26.559 back to Malibu. Just the simple, powerful symbol 00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:29.240 of faith and solidarity. And Zelensky gave him 00:24:29.240 --> 00:24:31.779 something in return. The Ukrainian Order of Merit, 00:24:31.799 --> 00:24:34.140 a formal state honor. It really cemented his 00:24:34.140 --> 00:24:36.460 role as a high profile international advocate 00:24:36.460 --> 00:24:39.099 for Ukraine's cause. It's quite an image. The 00:24:39.099 --> 00:24:43.180 Hollywood Award traded temporarily for a wartime 00:24:43.180 --> 00:24:45.920 medal. It encapsulates so much about him. Hashtag 00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:47.759 tag outro. It really does. When you look back 00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:49.500 at everything we've covered, that duality is 00:24:49.500 --> 00:24:52.259 just. It's inescapable. You have this incredible 00:24:52.259 --> 00:24:54.839 actor capable of these deep, transformative, 00:24:55.019 --> 00:24:58.160 award -winning performances. Mystic River, Milk, 00:24:58.480 --> 00:25:01.220 Dead Man Walking. Intense commitment to the craft. 00:25:01.380 --> 00:25:03.259 But then you have the other Sean Penn, the activist. 00:25:03.619 --> 00:25:06.079 Volatile, yes, but also deeply engaged, willing 00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:08.779 to dive headfirst into incredibly complex, dangerous 00:25:08.779 --> 00:25:11.680 situations. Katrina rescues, building camps in 00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:14.319 Haiti, the Chavez friendship, the El Chapo meeting, 00:25:14.519 --> 00:25:17.319 walking out of Ukraine. It's the same intensity 00:25:17.319 --> 00:25:19.819 applied in radically different arenas. Those 00:25:19.819 --> 00:25:21.880 leading to acclaim, sometimes to controversy, 00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:25.400 sometimes to legal trouble. Exactly. So for you 00:25:25.400 --> 00:25:27.579 listening, the key takeaway is that this commitment, 00:25:27.680 --> 00:25:30.339 this intensity is the engine driving both the 00:25:30.339 --> 00:25:32.819 artistic triumphs and the real world controversies. 00:25:32.819 --> 00:25:35.200 You can't really separate them. He's resisted 00:25:35.200 --> 00:25:38.059 simple labels his entire career. And we saw how 00:25:38.059 --> 00:25:40.299 he won his highest acting honors portraying a 00:25:40.299 --> 00:25:43.220 celebrated gay rights hero in Milk. But then 00:25:43.220 --> 00:25:46.339 he strongly defended. leaders like Chavez and 00:25:46.339 --> 00:25:49.339 Castro, whose governments had documented anti 00:25:49.339 --> 00:25:52.299 -LGBT policies. That's the central paradox, isn't 00:25:52.299 --> 00:25:54.619 it? It really is. And it leaves us with a question 00:25:54.619 --> 00:25:56.779 to think about. In today's world, with constant 00:25:56.779 --> 00:25:59.539 scrutiny, can this kind of intense, sometimes 00:25:59.539 --> 00:26:02.180 contradictory celebrity activism function effectively 00:26:02.180 --> 00:26:05.740 in the gray areas of global politics? Or is it 00:26:05.740 --> 00:26:08.279 always going to be defined and maybe judged by 00:26:08.279 --> 00:26:10.740 its most glaring inconsistencies? Something to 00:26:10.740 --> 00:26:11.079 ponder.