WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.259 Welcome to the Deep Dive, where we cut through 00:00:02.259 --> 00:00:04.059 the noise and give you that quick, fascinating 00:00:04.059 --> 00:00:07.660 shortcut to being, well, deeply informed. That's 00:00:07.660 --> 00:00:10.080 the goal. And today, yeah, put on your thinking 00:00:10.080 --> 00:00:12.839 caps, maybe a jaunty fedora if you have one handy. 00:00:13.359 --> 00:00:16.440 We're diving deep into the colossal, the truly 00:00:16.440 --> 00:00:20.539 gigantic, four -decade career of John Flansburg 00:00:20.539 --> 00:00:23.120 and John Linnell. The core, of course, of They 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:26.620 Might Be Giants, TMBG. Exactly, that pioneering 00:00:26.620 --> 00:00:29.690 alternative. rock band. Right. And TMBG is really, 00:00:29.809 --> 00:00:33.049 you could say, a masterclass in controlled eccentricity, 00:00:33.070 --> 00:00:36.450 their signature style. It's just instantly recognizable, 00:00:36.549 --> 00:00:38.590 isn't it? Oh, absolutely. Surreal, intensely 00:00:38.590 --> 00:00:41.270 witty. And often experimental, you know, defined 00:00:41.270 --> 00:00:43.950 by Flansburg's very distinctive guitar work and 00:00:43.950 --> 00:00:47.369 then Linnell's unconventional instruments. Like 00:00:47.369 --> 00:00:49.929 the accordion, woodwinds. Yeah, stuff that essentially 00:00:49.929 --> 00:00:51.990 just rejects the standard rock lineup altogether. 00:00:52.520 --> 00:00:54.579 Okay, let's unpack this then. We hear that term 00:00:54.579 --> 00:00:57.119 geek rock thrown around a lot with TMBG, but 00:00:57.119 --> 00:00:59.679 they were really trailblazers, aren't they? Making 00:00:59.679 --> 00:01:02.679 intellectual curiosity sound, well, commercially 00:01:02.679 --> 00:01:05.680 viable. That's a great way to put it. So our 00:01:05.680 --> 00:01:08.180 mission today, chart the course of the Johns. 00:01:08.739 --> 00:01:12.420 We'll look at their surprisingly structured backgrounds 00:01:12.420 --> 00:01:13.939 right through to their breakthrough successes. 00:01:14.400 --> 00:01:16.159 We're going to focus on that unique partnership 00:01:16.159 --> 00:01:18.799 they have, how complementary they are, and the 00:01:18.799 --> 00:01:20.780 groundbreaking tech they basically invented. 00:01:21.120 --> 00:01:24.519 Dialy song. Can't talk TMBG without it. Exactly. 00:01:24.540 --> 00:01:27.760 And then their stunning pivot into children's 00:01:27.760 --> 00:01:30.200 music, which nobody saw coming. Well, maybe some 00:01:30.200 --> 00:01:32.859 people did, given their style. Fair point. And 00:01:32.859 --> 00:01:35.560 just how these two high school friends turn into 00:01:35.560 --> 00:01:38.799 this, this multimedia powerhouse, Grammy winning, 00:01:38.939 --> 00:01:41.219 redefining how bands even connect with their 00:01:41.219 --> 00:01:43.799 fans. And for you, the listener, this isn't just, 00:01:43.799 --> 00:01:45.920 you know, a band history. Yeah. It's really a 00:01:45.920 --> 00:01:49.439 shortcut, a way to understand how creative control, 00:01:49.620 --> 00:01:51.599 that sort of entrepreneurial thinking and just 00:01:51.599 --> 00:01:55.159 sheer persistence let TMBG not just survive the 00:01:55.159 --> 00:01:57.980 music industry. Which is brutal. Incredibly. 00:01:58.239 --> 00:02:00.159 but how they actually built their own kind of 00:02:00.159 --> 00:02:02.799 sovereign musical nation. Love that. OK, let's 00:02:02.799 --> 00:02:04.420 start right at the beginning then. Section one, 00:02:04.540 --> 00:02:07.120 the parallel lives and unique partnership of 00:02:07.120 --> 00:02:09.979 the Johns. Yeah. And what's fascinating here, 00:02:10.099 --> 00:02:12.680 I think, is that while they ended up being this 00:02:12.680 --> 00:02:15.659 near perfect creative synthesis, their initial 00:02:15.659 --> 00:02:18.960 paths, they showed two really distinct individuals, 00:02:19.300 --> 00:02:22.699 both driven, it seems, by structure and creativity, 00:02:22.919 --> 00:02:25.439 sort of destined to intersect. They were born 00:02:25.439 --> 00:02:29.129 just a year apart, right? Linnell in 59, Flansburg 00:02:29.129 --> 00:02:32.169 60. Both kind of in that New York, Massachusetts 00:02:32.169 --> 00:02:35.030 orbit. And they first crossed paths way back, 00:02:35.189 --> 00:02:37.949 attending Lincoln -Sudbury Regional High School 00:02:37.949 --> 00:02:40.830 in Lincoln, Massachusetts. But it wasn't like 00:02:40.830 --> 00:02:44.210 instant band formation. No, the sources say their 00:02:44.210 --> 00:02:46.629 early collaboration was pretty casual. Just, 00:02:46.689 --> 00:02:48.650 you know, occasional home recording projects. 00:02:48.729 --> 00:02:51.250 Nothing like the foundation we know today. And 00:02:51.250 --> 00:02:53.689 the sources, they really reveal a lot about the 00:02:53.689 --> 00:02:55.740 different worlds they came from. Which maybe 00:02:55.740 --> 00:02:57.960 explains why they eventually took on such complementary 00:02:57.960 --> 00:03:00.379 roles in the band. Okay, like how? Well, look 00:03:00.379 --> 00:03:02.039 at John Flansburg. He was born in Lexington, 00:03:02.120 --> 00:03:04.259 Massachusetts, into this really established, 00:03:04.400 --> 00:03:06.520 very visible kind of environment. Right, his 00:03:06.520 --> 00:03:08.939 dad was an architect. A major Boston architect, 00:03:09.280 --> 00:03:13.039 Earl Flansburg. And his mother, Polly Flansburg, 00:03:13.159 --> 00:03:16.219 she founded and was president of Boston by Foot, 00:03:16.340 --> 00:03:19.560 a historical organization. Very respected. Okay, 00:03:19.620 --> 00:03:21.860 so that immediately suggests a background that's 00:03:21.860 --> 00:03:25.030 rooted in like... Creation, organization. And 00:03:25.030 --> 00:03:27.289 navigating the public eye. Exactly. Which makes 00:03:27.289 --> 00:03:29.830 total sense for the John who became the band's 00:03:29.830 --> 00:03:32.650 main strategic manager, the public face, really. 00:03:32.789 --> 00:03:35.189 And his academic path kind of reflects that too, 00:03:35.310 --> 00:03:37.189 right? That search for structure within the arts. 00:03:37.310 --> 00:03:39.370 He went to George Washington University, Antioch 00:03:39.370 --> 00:03:41.229 College. And then graduated from Pratt Institute. 00:03:41.990 --> 00:03:44.090 prestigious place with an arts degree in 82. 00:03:44.370 --> 00:03:47.490 And we also know he learned guitar, working a 00:03:47.490 --> 00:03:50.009 pretty unusual job for a future rock star. Oh, 00:03:50.009 --> 00:03:52.270 yeah. Parking garage attendant. No way. That's 00:03:52.270 --> 00:03:54.969 amazing. OK, so that's Flansburg. What about 00:03:54.969 --> 00:03:57.550 Linnell? Meanwhile, John Linnell, born in New 00:03:57.550 --> 00:04:00.330 York City, son of a psychiatrist, and his early 00:04:00.330 --> 00:04:02.770 musical influences, they really show you where 00:04:02.770 --> 00:04:06.460 TMBG's specific lyrical genius comes from. Like 00:04:06.460 --> 00:04:08.699 what? He was apparently deeply impressed by Walt 00:04:08.699 --> 00:04:11.599 Kelly's Songs of the Pogo album. Ah, okay. The 00:04:11.599 --> 00:04:15.000 comic strip guy. Yeah. And specifically, he was 00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:18.600 drawn to its heavy use of puns, political satire, 00:04:18.600 --> 00:04:21.639 wordplay. That sounds familiar. Exactly. That 00:04:21.639 --> 00:04:24.519 early love for high concept, intellectual absurdity, 00:04:24.540 --> 00:04:27.139 but paired with these really infectious melodies, 00:04:27.420 --> 00:04:32.009 that became Linnell's signature style. You can 00:04:32.009 --> 00:04:33.350 hear it right from the start. And Linnell actually 00:04:33.350 --> 00:04:35.790 tried to make a go of music earlier, right? Wasn't 00:04:35.790 --> 00:04:38.170 he in another band? Yeah, he played keyboards 00:04:38.170 --> 00:04:40.670 and sax in a new wave band called The Mundanes. 00:04:40.829 --> 00:04:44.790 The Mundanes. Great name. Isn't it? But he actually 00:04:44.790 --> 00:04:47.310 dropped out of UMass Amherst to pursue music 00:04:47.310 --> 00:04:50.269 seriously with them. The thing is, The Mundanes. 00:04:50.730 --> 00:04:53.870 They failed to get a record deal. And that failure, 00:04:54.029 --> 00:04:56.670 sources suggest, kind of made him receptive to 00:04:56.670 --> 00:04:58.410 trying a completely different approach later 00:04:58.410 --> 00:05:00.730 on. And that different approach was sealed by, 00:05:00.930 --> 00:05:03.350 well, it sounds like fate, honestly. It really 00:05:03.350 --> 00:05:06.370 does. TMBG was officially co -founded in 1982 00:05:06.370 --> 00:05:09.050 after they'd been apart for a bit. Linnell and 00:05:09.050 --> 00:05:11.589 Flansburg reunited in New York City. Right. And 00:05:11.589 --> 00:05:13.569 just by sheer coincidence, they ended up moving 00:05:13.569 --> 00:05:15.850 into the exact same apartment building on the 00:05:15.850 --> 00:05:19.329 exact same day in Park Slope, Brooklyn. That's... 00:05:19.660 --> 00:05:21.420 That's unbelievable. That sounds like something 00:05:21.420 --> 00:05:24.019 out of one of their songs almost. Doesn't it? 00:05:24.019 --> 00:05:28.060 Like a logistical miracle. So They Might Be Giants 00:05:28.060 --> 00:05:31.439 was born out of that reunion. And the name itself, 00:05:31.519 --> 00:05:33.379 it's steeped in that intellectual background 00:05:33.379 --> 00:05:37.439 they share. Taken from the 1971 film with George 00:05:37.439 --> 00:05:40.519 C. Scott. Yep. Which itself references Don Quixote 00:05:40.519 --> 00:05:43.199 mistaking windmills for, you know, evil giants. 00:05:43.420 --> 00:05:45.689 So what did they mean by it? Well, Flansburg 00:05:45.689 --> 00:05:48.129 clarified it. He said the name referred to the 00:05:48.129 --> 00:05:50.470 outside world of possibilities that they saw 00:05:50.470 --> 00:05:54.069 as this fledgling band, all the potential they 00:05:54.069 --> 00:05:56.269 were trying to grasp. It's really a statement 00:05:56.269 --> 00:05:58.990 about perception and ambition. Huh. Interesting. 00:05:59.629 --> 00:06:02.310 And before they settled on TMBG, they even had 00:06:02.310 --> 00:06:04.329 another name. Temporarily. Oh, yeah, for their 00:06:04.329 --> 00:06:06.449 very first concert, which, get this, was held 00:06:06.449 --> 00:06:08.930 at a Sandinista rally in Central Park. Seriously? 00:06:09.089 --> 00:06:11.910 A Sandinista rally? Mm -hmm. And for that one 00:06:11.910 --> 00:06:14.839 show, they performed as... El Grupo de Rock and 00:06:14.839 --> 00:06:17.160 Roll. El Grupo de Rock and Roll. Which is literally 00:06:17.160 --> 00:06:19.740 just Spanish for the rock and roll band. That's 00:06:19.740 --> 00:06:22.379 incredibly pragmatic and kind of hilarious. Completely 00:06:22.379 --> 00:06:24.500 unromantic, right? Which is funny in itself. 00:06:25.180 --> 00:06:27.439 It definitely sets the stage for how they divided 00:06:27.439 --> 00:06:29.540 things up later. Let's look at those roles they 00:06:29.540 --> 00:06:31.360 carved out. How did that partnership actually 00:06:31.360 --> 00:06:33.540 work day to day? Well, the foundation was pretty 00:06:33.540 --> 00:06:35.920 straightforward initially. You had Flansburg 00:06:35.920 --> 00:06:39.350 on... Rhythm guitar, lead vocals, songwriting. 00:06:39.490 --> 00:06:43.170 And Linnell on accordion, keyboards, woodwinds, 00:06:43.170 --> 00:06:46.009 lead vocals, also songwriting. Right. And crucially, 00:06:46.089 --> 00:06:49.370 for those early years, the third member wasn't 00:06:49.370 --> 00:06:52.279 a person. It was a drum machine. or sometimes 00:06:52.279 --> 00:06:54.399 a pre -recorded backing tape. Right, the tape 00:06:54.399 --> 00:06:57.680 deck years. Exactly. And Linnell, he clearly 00:06:57.680 --> 00:07:00.920 operates as the, let's say, technical and conceptual 00:07:00.920 --> 00:07:03.600 engine of the band. How so? He focuses on the 00:07:03.600 --> 00:07:05.720 technical side, those sophisticated chords, the 00:07:05.720 --> 00:07:08.259 complex rhythms, and those just relentlessly 00:07:08.259 --> 00:07:10.139 catchy melodies. Can't get them out of your head. 00:07:10.240 --> 00:07:12.800 Never. And his lyrical themes are so specific, 00:07:12.980 --> 00:07:15.300 you know, centering on wordplay. personification 00:07:15.300 --> 00:07:17.620 of inanimate objects. Like birdhouse in your 00:07:17.620 --> 00:07:20.899 soul. Perfect example. Or aging, delusional narrators, 00:07:21.040 --> 00:07:24.699 unreliable perspectives, often even death. But 00:07:24.699 --> 00:07:27.540 he juxtaposes those dark or really esoteric subjects 00:07:27.540 --> 00:07:31.120 with these incredibly bouncy, upbeat pop arrangements. 00:07:31.540 --> 00:07:34.620 Right. It's that contrast that's so key. Definitely. 00:07:34.699 --> 00:07:37.060 Like a Linnell track, Anna Eng, which we'll get 00:07:37.060 --> 00:07:39.360 to later. It's a whole conceptual puzzle wrapped 00:07:39.360 --> 00:07:41.779 in three minutes of pop. Okay, so Linnell's the 00:07:41.779 --> 00:07:44.620 conceptual engine. What about Flansburg? Flansburg 00:07:44.620 --> 00:07:46.899 seems to be the strategic and managerial center. 00:07:47.279 --> 00:07:49.560 He's the one handling the big picture cultural 00:07:49.560 --> 00:07:52.800 context, the promotional strategy, managing the 00:07:52.800 --> 00:07:54.879 live show production. The business side, kind 00:07:54.879 --> 00:07:57.259 of? More than just business, though. It's the 00:07:57.259 --> 00:08:00.959 overall vision, the presentation. And his songwriting 00:08:00.959 --> 00:08:03.920 often mixes that absurdist satire think boss 00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:06.899 of me with these moments of surprising earnestness 00:08:06.899 --> 00:08:10.160 or even romantic introspection. So they balance 00:08:10.160 --> 00:08:11.959 each other out perfectly. It really seems that 00:08:11.959 --> 00:08:14.720 way. Organizational practicality meets conceptual 00:08:14.720 --> 00:08:17.800 depth. And that dive into organizational practicality 00:08:17.800 --> 00:08:20.519 mixed with a bit of desperation led directly 00:08:20.519 --> 00:08:23.480 to their first really big technological innovation. 00:08:23.639 --> 00:08:25.860 The thing that defines their whole legacy, maybe. 00:08:26.079 --> 00:08:28.300 Oh, absolutely. Which brings us right into section 00:08:28.300 --> 00:08:31.459 two. The revolutionary experiment. Dial -A song. 00:08:31.720 --> 00:08:34.340 Dial -A song. It's almost mythological for TMBG 00:08:34.340 --> 00:08:36.940 fans. It really is. Yeah. And it's critical to 00:08:36.940 --> 00:08:39.360 understand, like we hinted, this wasn't some 00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:42.220 grand strategic marketing plan cooked up in a 00:08:42.220 --> 00:08:44.960 boardroom. No, it came out of problems, right? 00:08:45.059 --> 00:08:47.860 Pure necessity. Physical limitation, actually. 00:08:48.259 --> 00:08:51.100 This concept emerged around 1985 during this 00:08:51.100 --> 00:08:53.759 forced hiatus. Linnell had broken his wrist in 00:08:53.759 --> 00:08:56.769 a biking accident. Ouch. Yeah. And Flansburg's 00:08:56.769 --> 00:08:59.470 apartment had been burgled, stuff stolen. So 00:08:59.470 --> 00:09:01.190 they couldn't reliably play live shows for a 00:09:01.190 --> 00:09:03.549 bit. So what did they do instead of just stopping? 00:09:03.590 --> 00:09:06.370 Instead of going silent, Flansburg and Linnell 00:09:06.370 --> 00:09:08.750 leveraged the most ubiquitous piece of consumer 00:09:08.750 --> 00:09:11.649 tech they could find back then. The telephone 00:09:11.649 --> 00:09:14.289 answering machine. An answering machine. With 00:09:14.289 --> 00:09:16.350 the little cassette tapes. Exactly. They recorded 00:09:16.350 --> 00:09:18.789 new songs onto a cassette, popped it in the machine, 00:09:19.029 --> 00:09:20.529 and just started promoting the phone number. 00:09:20.610 --> 00:09:22.850 Which was? Do we have it? Oh, yeah. It's Letting 00:09:22.850 --> 00:09:27.370 Dairy. 718 -387 -6962. They put it in local papers 00:09:27.370 --> 00:09:29.389 like the Village Voice. So anyone could just 00:09:29.389 --> 00:09:32.149 call up and hear a new TMB Juice song. Pretty 00:09:32.149 --> 00:09:35.230 much. It was this immediate, super low -tech, 00:09:35.289 --> 00:09:39.049 direct -to -fan thing, operating 24 -7. The machine 00:09:39.049 --> 00:09:41.929 played one track at a time, but the content wasn't 00:09:41.929 --> 00:09:44.110 just Polish album stuff. What was on there? It 00:09:44.110 --> 00:09:47.710 was a chaotic mix. Demos, half -finished ideas, 00:09:48.210 --> 00:09:51.990 band updates, weird mock advertisements, whatever 00:09:51.990 --> 00:09:53.990 they'd been working on most recently. It was 00:09:53.990 --> 00:09:57.669 literally like a free daily radio show that the 00:09:57.669 --> 00:10:00.779 band controlled completely. That's genius. But 00:10:00.779 --> 00:10:02.840 I bet the line was busy a lot. Constantly busy. 00:10:03.000 --> 00:10:04.899 And the machines themselves were always wearing 00:10:04.899 --> 00:10:07.179 out from the constant playback and rewinding. 00:10:07.299 --> 00:10:09.879 But that technical flaw. Became a strength. Totally. 00:10:09.960 --> 00:10:12.080 It became their greatest marketing hook. They 00:10:12.080 --> 00:10:14.259 coined that famous self -deprecating slogan, 00:10:14.580 --> 00:10:18.139 always busy, often broken. Ah, I love it. And 00:10:18.139 --> 00:10:20.860 they paired it with that legendary, really mischievous 00:10:20.860 --> 00:10:22.960 marketing line. Oh, I know this one. Free when 00:10:22.960 --> 00:10:25.659 you call from work. That's the one. Classic TMBG, 00:10:25.799 --> 00:10:28.220 encouraging office workers everywhere to use 00:10:28.220 --> 00:10:30.100 the company phone to listen to their quirky music. 00:10:30.299 --> 00:10:32.720 It's a clever little anti -establishment wink, 00:10:32.840 --> 00:10:35.720 isn't it? And it obviously resonated. It fostered 00:10:35.720 --> 00:10:38.639 this immediate personal connection that traditional 00:10:38.639 --> 00:10:41.980 media just couldn't replicate back then. And 00:10:41.980 --> 00:10:44.500 there's this incredible anecdote that shows the 00:10:44.500 --> 00:10:47.320 level of engagement. Go on. The answering machine 00:10:47.320 --> 00:10:50.399 itself, the tape, actually recorded a conversation 00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:53.100 between two listeners who were calling in. They 00:10:53.100 --> 00:10:55.539 were discussing the service, wondering how on 00:10:55.539 --> 00:10:58.500 earth the band made any money from it. And TMBG 00:10:58.500 --> 00:11:01.600 heard this. Yep. And the clip was so good, so 00:11:01.600 --> 00:11:04.279 meta, they later used it as a hidden track on 00:11:04.279 --> 00:11:06.289 one of their EPs. They literally incorporated 00:11:06.289 --> 00:11:08.549 their audience's reactions into their official 00:11:08.549 --> 00:11:10.750 output. That's amazing fan interaction before 00:11:10.750 --> 00:11:12.990 that was even really a term. Exactly. And the 00:11:12.990 --> 00:11:14.929 success of Dial A Song, it was foundational. 00:11:15.190 --> 00:11:18.190 It let them bypass the whole traditional demo 00:11:18.190 --> 00:11:20.830 submission process, build buzz grassroots style. 00:11:21.029 --> 00:11:22.809 Which is how they got noticed by Barn Own Records. 00:11:23.070 --> 00:11:25.370 Precisely. And secured the release of their self 00:11:25.370 --> 00:11:28.590 -titled debut album in 1986. Dial A Song was 00:11:28.590 --> 00:11:30.629 the engine. But those poor answering machines, 00:11:30.970 --> 00:11:34.990 they couldn't last forever. No. As the 90s wore 00:11:34.990 --> 00:11:38.830 on, the limitations just became too much. Physical 00:11:38.830 --> 00:11:41.710 cassette tapes, constant rewinding, playback. 00:11:42.409 --> 00:11:45.149 The machines started failing constantly. Did 00:11:45.149 --> 00:11:47.450 they try to upgrade? They did. They attempted 00:11:47.450 --> 00:11:49.590 to switch to digital answering units, but apparently 00:11:49.590 --> 00:11:52.289 those frequently crashed too. The strain was 00:11:52.289 --> 00:11:55.549 just too intense. The original low -tech model 00:11:55.549 --> 00:11:58.850 basically died of old age around 2006. And the 00:11:58.850 --> 00:12:01.509 number went dead. The number was officially disconnected 00:12:01.509 --> 00:12:05.009 in 2008, the end of an era, Sort of. Sort of. 00:12:05.009 --> 00:12:06.750 But knowing them, they didn't just see it as 00:12:06.750 --> 00:12:08.590 an end, did they? They just jumped ahead again. 00:12:08.789 --> 00:12:10.909 Exactly. This technical death just pushed them 00:12:10.909 --> 00:12:13.190 into becoming digital distribution pioneers instead. 00:12:13.409 --> 00:12:16.610 How so? Well, they were really early adopters 00:12:16.610 --> 00:12:19.009 of podcasting. They essentially replaced the 00:12:19.009 --> 00:12:21.090 phone line concept with promotional podcasts, 00:12:21.450 --> 00:12:24.289 moving that idea of episodic direct -to -fan 00:12:24.289 --> 00:12:26.389 content onto the internet. Okay, makes sense. 00:12:26.590 --> 00:12:29.110 But even more critically, back in 1999, this 00:12:29.110 --> 00:12:31.809 is huge. They Might Be Giants became the first 00:12:31.809 --> 00:12:34.730 major label recording artist to release an entire 00:12:34.730 --> 00:12:37.929 album. Long Tall Weekend. That's the one. Exclusively 00:12:37.929 --> 00:12:41.159 in the MP3 format through eMusic. 1999. That 00:12:41.159 --> 00:12:43.200 was radical then. The industry was terrified 00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:46.120 of MP3s. Absolutely terrified. They were fighting 00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:49.059 Napster tooth and nail. Yeah. And TMBG just went, 00:12:49.139 --> 00:12:50.980 you know what, we'll just sell the album directly 00:12:50.980 --> 00:12:53.559 as files. Yeah. It was an incredible piece of 00:12:53.559 --> 00:12:56.019 strategic foresight, controlling their own product, 00:12:56.039 --> 00:12:58.000 their own distribution. Telling the industry, 00:12:58.139 --> 00:13:00.840 we don't actually need your plastic discs and 00:13:00.840 --> 00:13:02.940 trucks to get a full album to our fans. Pretty 00:13:02.940 --> 00:13:06.379 much. Just gutsy. So Diley's song goes quiet, 00:13:06.399 --> 00:13:09.279 but then it comes back. It does. The idea was 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:12.190 just... Too potent, too central to their identity 00:13:12.190 --> 00:13:16.409 to leave dormant forever. In 2015, Dai Lei Song 00:13:16.409 --> 00:13:18.610 was reactivated. They called it... Dial a song 00:13:18.610 --> 00:13:20.830 direct. New number. Yep, a new toll -free number 00:13:20.830 --> 00:13:24.470 this time. 844 -387 -6962. And they came back 00:13:24.470 --> 00:13:26.789 with this staggering commitment. Oh yeah, the 00:13:26.789 --> 00:13:29.509 song a week thing. Releasing one brand new song 00:13:29.509 --> 00:13:32.009 every single week for the entire year of 2015. 00:13:32.370 --> 00:13:34.509 That's insane output. That's like professional 00:13:34.509 --> 00:13:37.009 athlete levels of intensity for musicians. It 00:13:37.009 --> 00:13:39.250 really is. And that commitment, that fire hose 00:13:39.250 --> 00:13:42.210 of new material, it formed the basis for later 00:13:42.210 --> 00:13:44.649 albums like Glean and Phone Power. And they did 00:13:44.649 --> 00:13:47.049 it again in 2018, right? Another year of weekly 00:13:47.049 --> 00:13:50.899 songs. They did. The lesson... I think, for any 00:13:50.899 --> 00:13:53.519 creative person today is just crystal clear. 00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:56.620 Consistency and that direct audience access, 00:13:56.879 --> 00:13:59.759 it can trump traditional gatekeepers every single 00:13:59.759 --> 00:14:01.840 time. Which leads us perfectly into their actual 00:14:01.840 --> 00:14:03.919 commercial breakthrough, powered by that dedicated 00:14:03.919 --> 00:14:06.559 fan base they built. Section three, commercial 00:14:06.559 --> 00:14:08.659 breakthrough and the expanding lineup. Right. 00:14:08.740 --> 00:14:11.600 That intense direct relationship they fostered 00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:14.460 through Dial A Song. It really did provide the 00:14:14.460 --> 00:14:16.820 necessary launch pad for them to break through 00:14:16.820 --> 00:14:19.110 into the mainstream rock world. legitimately 00:14:19.110 --> 00:14:21.610 that initial success came with the 86 debut on 00:14:21.610 --> 00:14:23.889 college radio but the visual element was key 00:14:23.889 --> 00:14:26.169 too wasn't it the video for don't let's start 00:14:26.169 --> 00:14:30.230 oh huge that video filmed at the iconic slightly 00:14:30.230 --> 00:14:33.389 decaying 1964 new york world's fair pavilion 00:14:33.389 --> 00:14:36.340 in queens those weird towers yeah It was an absolute 00:14:36.340 --> 00:14:39.340 hit on MTV back in 1987. It really put them on 00:14:39.340 --> 00:14:41.019 the map visually. And that choice of location 00:14:41.019 --> 00:14:43.679 is so perfectly TMBG, isn't it? This monument 00:14:43.679 --> 00:14:46.940 to optimism and futurism now kind of quietly 00:14:46.940 --> 00:14:49.620 falling apart. Exactly. It's like a backdrop 00:14:49.620 --> 00:14:52.159 that mirrors their whole vibe, blending upbeat 00:14:52.159 --> 00:14:54.759 melodies with a hint of existential dread or 00:14:54.759 --> 00:14:57.860 decay. Their second album, Lincoln, from 88, 00:14:58.019 --> 00:15:00.539 named for their Massachusetts hometown that really 00:15:00.539 --> 00:15:02.940 cemented their success. It had the single Anna 00:15:02.940 --> 00:15:05.919 N. Right, Anna N. That track climbed to number 00:15:05.919 --> 00:15:08.820 11 on the U .S. Modern Rock Chart. Big college 00:15:08.820 --> 00:15:11.299 hit. But we need to talk about the lyrics, the 00:15:11.299 --> 00:15:13.840 concept behind that song. Okay. It's about a 00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:16.960 pen pal. Ostensibly, yes. It's presented as a 00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:19.379 meditation on a long -lost pen pal, a woman in 00:15:19.379 --> 00:15:22.340 Vietnam named Anna Ang. But the lyrical puzzle 00:15:22.340 --> 00:15:25.860 is pure Linnell high concept. How so? Flansburg 00:15:25.860 --> 00:15:27.960 explained it once. Apparently, Linnell looked 00:15:27.960 --> 00:15:30.179 at a globe and literally calculated that if Anna 00:15:30.179 --> 00:15:33.200 Eng was in Vietnam, the geographical point directly 00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:36.139 opposite her on the globe, the anapode, the viewpoint 00:15:36.139 --> 00:15:38.220 of the narrator writing the song, would be somewhere 00:15:38.220 --> 00:15:40.860 in Peru. Wow. So it's this intellectual exercise 00:15:40.860 --> 00:15:43.860 about distance and connection. Skies is a ridiculously 00:15:43.860 --> 00:15:46.519 catchy pop song. Vintage Linnell. That success, 00:15:46.980 --> 00:15:49.000 LinkedIn success, that's what got them the major 00:15:49.000 --> 00:15:51.539 label deal, right? With Electra Records in 89. 00:15:51.879 --> 00:15:55.440 Yep. And that deal, of course, led directly to 00:15:55.440 --> 00:15:58.139 their platinum certified magnum opus. Flood, 00:15:58.139 --> 00:16:01.580 1990. Flood was just inescapable for a while 00:16:01.580 --> 00:16:04.679 there. It had huge charting singles like Birdhouse 00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:07.639 in Your Soul. Such a great song. Metaphorical 00:16:07.639 --> 00:16:10.419 masterpiece, as you said. Totally. And their 00:16:10.419 --> 00:16:15.340 ridiculously popular cover of Istanbul. Not Constantinople. 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:17.759 Everyone knew that one. Everyone. The successive 00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:20.679 flood, it really broke them out of just the college 00:16:20.679 --> 00:16:23.179 radio bubble and pushed them into genuine mass 00:16:23.179 --> 00:16:25.080 culture. And wasn't there a cartoon connection 00:16:25.080 --> 00:16:27.320 around then, too? Oh, yeah. Huge boost. Warner 00:16:27.320 --> 00:16:30.279 Bros. Animation created two absolutely beloved 00:16:30.279 --> 00:16:32.919 cartoon music videos for them on Tiny Toon Adventures. 00:16:33.200 --> 00:16:36.220 Right. For Istanbul and Particle Man. Yeah, Particle 00:16:36.220 --> 00:16:38.580 Man, Particle Man. Those videos instantly established 00:16:38.580 --> 00:16:40.539 them as something cool that appealed to sophisticated 00:16:40.539 --> 00:16:44.059 adults and kids who just dug the surreal animation 00:16:44.059 --> 00:16:46.759 and catchy tunes. Huge crossover moment. But 00:16:46.759 --> 00:16:49.919 signing with Elektra. a major label, it didn't 00:16:49.919 --> 00:16:51.919 seem to dull their innovative spirit, did it? 00:16:51.940 --> 00:16:54.960 They kept experimenting. Not at all. In fact, 00:16:54.960 --> 00:16:57.179 they continued using the album format itself 00:16:57.179 --> 00:16:59.379 as this kind of playground for experimentation. 00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:04.779 Take 1992. TMBG gets named Musical Ambassadors 00:17:04.779 --> 00:17:07.839 for International Space Year. Seriously? That's 00:17:07.839 --> 00:17:10.279 a title. Isn't it? And that inspired their next 00:17:10.279 --> 00:17:13.259 album, Apollo 18. Okay, Apollo 18. This is where 00:17:13.259 --> 00:17:16.240 we get the legendary track. Or tracks. Fingertips. 00:17:16.380 --> 00:17:18.400 Fingertips. Which wasn't just a song. It was 00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:20.500 more like a conceptual art piece designed specifically 00:17:20.500 --> 00:17:24.099 to mess with the then -new CD technology. Specifically 00:17:24.099 --> 00:17:27.660 the shuffle feature on CD players. Exactly. Fingertips 00:17:27.660 --> 00:17:30.359 was actually made up of 21 separate, extremely 00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:33.180 short tracks. Most are under 10 seconds long. 00:17:33.259 --> 00:17:35.039 Like little musical thoughts. Little bursts. 00:17:35.299 --> 00:17:37.200 And they were designed so that if you put your 00:17:37.200 --> 00:17:39.759 CD player on shuffle, these tiny tracks would 00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:42.359 be randomly interspersed between the album's 00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:44.539 main full -length songs. Creating total chaos 00:17:44.539 --> 00:17:47.059 for the listener. Oh yeah. A chaotic, unpredictable 00:17:47.059 --> 00:17:49.779 listening experience that was entirely dependent 00:17:49.779 --> 00:17:52.220 on the digital hardware you were using. They 00:17:52.220 --> 00:17:54.440 were forcing the listener to engage with the 00:17:54.440 --> 00:17:57.960 physical medium, the CD itself, in a way no band 00:17:57.960 --> 00:18:00.140 had really done before. It's like a bold piece 00:18:00.140 --> 00:18:03.230 of anti -album sequencing. Using the technology 00:18:03.230 --> 00:18:05.910 against itself, almost. It really showed they 00:18:05.910 --> 00:18:08.410 viewed the CD not just as a container for music, 00:18:08.470 --> 00:18:10.930 but as this interactive device they could play 00:18:10.930 --> 00:18:13.369 with. Okay, so after Apollo 18, there's a big 00:18:13.369 --> 00:18:15.789 shift in their live sound, right? They ditched 00:18:15.789 --> 00:18:18.029 the tapes. Yeah, that was a fundamental change. 00:18:18.230 --> 00:18:20.769 They finally transitioned away from using those 00:18:20.769 --> 00:18:23.890 recorded backing tracks for live shows and recruited 00:18:23.890 --> 00:18:27.190 a full backing band, a proper rock band setup. 00:18:27.349 --> 00:18:29.930 And Flansburg stopped playing bass live. Right. 00:18:30.269 --> 00:18:32.710 He moved away from playing bass live, focused 00:18:32.710 --> 00:18:35.490 entirely on guitar and vocals, let the new guys 00:18:35.490 --> 00:18:37.710 handle the rhythm section. And that shift, you 00:18:37.710 --> 00:18:39.329 can really hear it on the next album, can't you? 00:18:39.910 --> 00:18:42.890 1994's John Henry. Oh, definitely. John Henry 00:18:42.890 --> 00:18:46.150 was a distinct departure. Much more conventional 00:18:46.150 --> 00:18:49.450 rock sound, louder, way more guitar heavy. Some 00:18:49.450 --> 00:18:51.309 fans probably felt it diluted their original 00:18:51.309 --> 00:18:53.609 weirdness, maybe. You know, it's a fair point 00:18:53.609 --> 00:18:56.049 to raise. Some did feel that way. But you could 00:18:56.049 --> 00:18:58.210 also argue it was a necessary adaptation. How 00:18:58.210 --> 00:19:00.420 so? They were playing bigger venues now, post 00:19:00.420 --> 00:19:03.420 -flood. They needed a sound to fill those rooms. 00:19:03.619 --> 00:19:06.579 And they were also responding probably to the 00:19:06.579 --> 00:19:09.279 prevailing sounds of the mid -90s, like grunge. 00:19:09.319 --> 00:19:12.940 Right. Flannel was everywhere. Exactly. But crucially, 00:19:13.039 --> 00:19:15.880 even with a more conventional rock sound, they 00:19:15.880 --> 00:19:17.980 were still writing deeply unconventional songs, 00:19:18.200 --> 00:19:21.359 lyrically, conceptually. They proved they could 00:19:21.359 --> 00:19:24.619 handle that sound. but still be TMBG. So it solidified 00:19:24.619 --> 00:19:27.079 them as adaptable, not just a gimmick band. I 00:19:27.079 --> 00:19:29.119 think so. It showed they were a durable entity. 00:19:29.779 --> 00:19:32.299 And that transition also led to the current core 00:19:32.299 --> 00:19:35.599 backing lineup solidifying not long after. The 00:19:35.599 --> 00:19:37.220 guys who are still with them today providing 00:19:37.220 --> 00:19:39.720 that horsepower live. That's Dan Miller on guitar, 00:19:39.920 --> 00:19:42.359 Danny Weinkauf on bass. They joined around 98. 00:19:42.599 --> 00:19:45.140 Roughly, yeah. And then drummer Marty Beller 00:19:45.140 --> 00:19:48.460 replaced Dan Hickey in 2004. And those three, 00:19:48.599 --> 00:19:51.740 Miller, Weinkauf... They've been the bedrock 00:19:51.740 --> 00:19:54.400 of the live TMBG experience ever since. And having 00:19:54.400 --> 00:19:56.400 that solid band infrastructure, that probably 00:19:56.400 --> 00:19:58.779 allowed them to really capitalize on their next 00:19:58.779 --> 00:20:01.720 massive mainstream cultural moment. Ah, yes. 00:20:01.799 --> 00:20:03.779 The song that everyone, even people who don't 00:20:03.779 --> 00:20:05.940 know, they know TMBG probably knows. Boss of 00:20:05.940 --> 00:20:09.039 Me. That's the one. Penned and sung by Flansburg. 00:20:09.180 --> 00:20:11.579 Yeah. Became absolutely synonymous with early 00:20:11.579 --> 00:20:14.559 2000s television. As the theme song for the huge 00:20:14.559 --> 00:20:17.220 hit show, Malcolm in the Middle. You're not the 00:20:17.220 --> 00:20:20.869 boss of me now. It was a monster hit, charted 00:20:20.869 --> 00:20:23.869 internationally, and critically, it won the Two 00:20:23.869 --> 00:20:26.690 Johns a Grammy Award. Right. Best Song Written 00:20:26.690 --> 00:20:30.210 for Visual Media, 2002. That's a huge mainstream 00:20:30.210 --> 00:20:32.450 accolade, especially for a band that always kind 00:20:32.450 --> 00:20:34.569 of cultivated this image of being happily outside 00:20:34.569 --> 00:20:36.569 the mainstream. And that Grammy, that exposure, 00:20:36.869 --> 00:20:38.970 it opened the floodgates for TV work, didn't 00:20:38.970 --> 00:20:40.910 it? Totally. They became the go -to composers 00:20:40.910 --> 00:20:43.950 for smart, quirky media. They performed the theme 00:20:43.950 --> 00:20:45.849 for The Daily Show. Which was actually written 00:20:45.849 --> 00:20:48.289 by Bob Mould, right? From Husker Du. Correct. 00:20:48.369 --> 00:20:51.329 Composed by Mould, performed by TMBG. But they 00:20:51.329 --> 00:20:53.710 also composed the theme and the famous Hot Dog 00:20:53.710 --> 00:20:57.089 song for Disney's Mickey Mouse Clubhouse. Hot 00:20:57.089 --> 00:21:00.150 dog, hot dog, hot diggity dog. My kids love that. 00:21:00.329 --> 00:21:01.829 Everyone's kids love that. And their music is 00:21:01.829 --> 00:21:04.970 scattered all over animated shows like The Oblongs, 00:21:04.970 --> 00:21:07.450 Dexter's Laboratory, Courage the Cowardly Dog. 00:21:08.200 --> 00:21:10.700 They just became ubiquitous in that space. Their 00:21:10.700 --> 00:21:14.319 ability to just pivot so seamlessly from being 00:21:14.319 --> 00:21:17.940 these adult alternative rock innovators to becoming 00:21:17.940 --> 00:21:20.940 Grammy winning children's educators and pop culture 00:21:20.940 --> 00:21:23.339 humorists. It's just a testament to their incredible 00:21:23.339 --> 00:21:25.529 versatility, isn't it? Which brings us nicely 00:21:25.529 --> 00:21:28.329 to exploring that diversification strategy even 00:21:28.329 --> 00:21:30.349 further. Right. Section four, diversification 00:21:30.349 --> 00:21:33.990 and solo ventures. This really shows their strategic 00:21:33.990 --> 00:21:37.069 depth, building these parallel creative empires. 00:21:37.109 --> 00:21:40.630 And the most startling pivot maybe was into children's 00:21:40.630 --> 00:21:43.390 music. Yeah. And it wasn't just like a one -off 00:21:43.390 --> 00:21:45.609 album. They went all in. They've released five 00:21:45.609 --> 00:21:48.650 full children's albums now, starting with No. 00:21:49.079 --> 00:21:52.000 Back in 2002. Did that cause any backlash from 00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:54.240 the original fans like they sold out to the kids 00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:56.500 market? There was probably some initial skepticism. 00:21:56.539 --> 00:21:58.779 Yeah. Yeah. You always get that. But the Johns 00:21:58.779 --> 00:22:01.039 were really skillful about maintaining the core 00:22:01.039 --> 00:22:03.839 TMBG sensibility. That's the key, isn't it? How 00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:05.759 did they manage that? Well, they didn't patronize 00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:08.500 their young audience. That's crucial. They still 00:22:08.500 --> 00:22:11.480 used sophisticated vocabulary, complex ideas. 00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:15.039 They tackled subjects like science and math with 00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:17.240 the same intellectual rigor and quirky humor 00:22:17.240 --> 00:22:19.700 they'd apply to songs about historical figures 00:22:19.700 --> 00:22:22.299 or failed romance for adults. So it appealed 00:22:22.299 --> 00:22:24.559 to the parents just as much as the kids. Exactly. 00:22:24.680 --> 00:22:26.960 Parents weren't bored listening to it. And the 00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:29.680 quality control was high. This led to serious 00:22:29.680 --> 00:22:32.259 recognition. They partnered with Disney Sound 00:22:32.259 --> 00:22:35.460 for releases like Here Come the ABCs and Here 00:22:35.460 --> 00:22:38.160 Come the 123s. And those did really well. Didn't 00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:40.579 one win a Grammy? Here Come the 123s, which came 00:22:40.579 --> 00:22:43.539 out in 2008. won the Grammy Award for Best Musical 00:22:43.539 --> 00:22:47.019 Album for Children in 2009. Wow. And the follow 00:22:47.019 --> 00:22:50.059 -up, Here Comes Science from 2009. That was nominated 00:22:50.059 --> 00:22:52.940 too. So this wasn't just some novelty side project 00:22:52.940 --> 00:22:55.720 for them. It was a fully credentialed, high -quality, 00:22:55.839 --> 00:22:58.500 award -winning output stream. Okay, so the kids' 00:22:58.579 --> 00:23:00.980 music empire is huge. Now let's look at their 00:23:00.980 --> 00:23:03.599 solo ventures, because those really highlight 00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:06.160 their individual personalities, don't they? Starting 00:23:06.160 --> 00:23:08.500 with Linnell's highly conceptual, often quirky 00:23:08.500 --> 00:23:11.490 stuff. Oh, absolutely. Linnell's State Songs 00:23:11.490 --> 00:23:15.500 project is just... conceptually brilliant and 00:23:15.500 --> 00:23:17.720 totally eccentric. That started as an EP first. 00:23:18.059 --> 00:23:20.480 Yeah, an EP in 1994, then expanded into a full 00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:23.319 album in 1999. Yeah. And the whole premise is 00:23:23.319 --> 00:23:26.400 this deliberate misdirection. U .S. states feature 00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:28.619 prominently in the song titles, the choruses. 00:23:28.759 --> 00:23:32.079 Right, like Maine, Idaho, South Carolina. Exactly. 00:23:32.259 --> 00:23:35.720 But the actual narratives of the songs have virtually 00:23:35.720 --> 00:23:38.160 zero connection to the state itself. Okay, give 00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:39.940 us some examples. They sound fantastic. Okay, 00:23:39.980 --> 00:23:42.640 well, consider Montana. It's not about Big Sky 00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:46.750 Country at all. It's actually the insane, deranged 00:23:46.750 --> 00:23:48.650 ramblings of a person who's apparently about 00:23:48.650 --> 00:23:52.190 to die. Cheery. Right. Or Idaho, which hilariously 00:23:52.190 --> 00:23:54.710 references that famous incident where John Lennon, 00:23:54.789 --> 00:23:56.930 supposedly under the influence of hallucinogens, 00:23:56.990 --> 00:23:59.490 became convinced he could drive his actual house, 00:23:59.589 --> 00:24:01.690 like steer it down the road. OK, that's amazing. 00:24:01.750 --> 00:24:04.210 What about South Carolina? South Carolina is 00:24:04.210 --> 00:24:06.849 about someone achieving immense wealth, like 00:24:06.849 --> 00:24:08.990 buying everything after suffering an unfortunate 00:24:08.990 --> 00:24:12.789 bicycle accident. It's all just. Pure Linnell. 00:24:12.950 --> 00:24:16.470 Highly technical music delivering these delusional, 00:24:16.470 --> 00:24:19.849 wordplay -heavy, completely tangential narratives. 00:24:19.950 --> 00:24:22.789 Exactly. It's his signature. And he takes the 00:24:22.789 --> 00:24:25.210 academic route, too, sometimes. Remember in 2021, 00:24:25.450 --> 00:24:27.750 he just dropped the Roman songs EP. Oh, yeah. 00:24:27.829 --> 00:24:31.269 Original music, but sung entirely in Latin. Entirely 00:24:31.269 --> 00:24:33.670 in Latin. That move just confirms his deeply 00:24:33.670 --> 00:24:37.230 conceptual, almost scholarly approach to composition 00:24:37.230 --> 00:24:39.569 sometimes. It's wild. And didn't he pop up in 00:24:39.569 --> 00:24:42.450 a movie soundtrack, too? Singing? He did. In 00:24:42.450 --> 00:24:45.710 a classic TMBG adjacent kind of way, Linnell 00:24:45.710 --> 00:24:47.750 provided the singing voice for the other father 00:24:47.750 --> 00:24:50.089 character in that brilliant stop motion animated 00:24:50.089 --> 00:24:53.059 film. Coraline, back in 2009. Oh, right. And 00:24:53.059 --> 00:24:55.180 TMBG wrote the song for that scene, too, didn't 00:24:55.180 --> 00:24:56.779 they? The Other Father song. They did. It all 00:24:56.779 --> 00:24:58.880 connects. Okay, so that's Linnell's quirky genius. 00:24:58.980 --> 00:25:01.559 Now we shift over to John Flansburg's side ventures. 00:25:01.660 --> 00:25:04.500 And his seemed to lean more towards the strategic, 00:25:04.579 --> 00:25:07.500 the entrepreneurial, maybe? Definitely. Flansburg's 00:25:07.500 --> 00:25:10.099 main side band project was Mono Puff. They put 00:25:10.099 --> 00:25:12.480 out two full -length albums, a few EPs, mostly 00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:14.400 in the late 90s. But yeah, his business drive 00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:17.039 is really what sets his solo stuff apart. He 00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:19.140 actually ran a subscription -based record label 00:25:19.140 --> 00:25:21.690 for a while. Called the Hello Recording Club. 00:25:21.890 --> 00:25:24.289 Ah, okay. That's another direct line back to 00:25:24.289 --> 00:25:27.269 Dial A Song, isn't it? Absolutely. Flansburg 00:25:27.269 --> 00:25:29.869 was constantly innovating ways to bypass traditional 00:25:29.869 --> 00:25:32.930 retail, maintain that direct -to -consumer relationship, 00:25:33.329 --> 00:25:36.829 subscription models, mail order, long before 00:25:36.829 --> 00:25:39.150 things like Patreon or Kickstarter were even 00:25:39.150 --> 00:25:41.380 a glimmer in anyone's eye. Always ahead of the 00:25:41.380 --> 00:25:44.259 curve on distribution. Seems like it. And he 00:25:44.259 --> 00:25:46.720 also took on significant production and directorial 00:25:46.720 --> 00:25:49.940 roles outside TMVG. He directed music videos 00:25:49.940 --> 00:25:52.680 for other cool artists like Ben Folds 5, Soul 00:25:52.680 --> 00:25:55.299 Coughing. Oh, wow. Didn't know that. Yeah. And 00:25:55.299 --> 00:25:57.740 he produced Jonathan Colton's big album, Artificial 00:25:57.740 --> 00:26:00.660 Heart. He's really an artistic polymath operating 00:26:00.660 --> 00:26:03.160 both creatively and structurally, managing projects. 00:26:03.480 --> 00:26:06.180 And he even ventured into theater. He did. In 00:26:06.180 --> 00:26:08.460 2004, he produced and actually starred in an 00:26:08.460 --> 00:26:10.720 off -Broadway musical called People Are Wrong. 00:26:10.839 --> 00:26:13.640 People Are Wrong. Great title. Isn't it? And 00:26:13.640 --> 00:26:15.700 notably, it was co -written by his wife, the 00:26:15.700 --> 00:26:17.960 musician Robin Goldwasser. They got married in 00:26:17.960 --> 00:26:20.910 96. So he's constantly busy. Has he done solo 00:26:20.910 --> 00:26:24.009 music recently? Yep. Just last year, 2023, he 00:26:24.009 --> 00:26:26.950 released a solo EP called Forest Trees. Still 00:26:26.950 --> 00:26:29.569 going strong. So these solo projects, they really 00:26:29.569 --> 00:26:32.069 highlight the freedom within the TMBG partnership, 00:26:32.329 --> 00:26:34.410 don't they? I think that's exactly right. Each 00:26:34.410 --> 00:26:37.690 John clearly has the space and support to pursue 00:26:37.690 --> 00:26:40.490 these highly ambitious, really distinct projects, 00:26:40.730 --> 00:26:43.609 while that core creative relationship with TMBG 00:26:43.609 --> 00:26:46.230 just keeps rolling along. Which brings us to 00:26:46.230 --> 00:26:48.170 thinking of them as individuals, their resilience, 00:26:48.390 --> 00:26:51.690 and their overall legacy. Section 5, Personalities, 00:26:51.750 --> 00:26:53.769 Resilience, and Legacy. Yeah, and here's where 00:26:53.769 --> 00:26:55.549 some of those little biographical nuggets really 00:26:55.549 --> 00:26:58.180 add texture to the legend. They reveal the unique 00:26:58.180 --> 00:27:00.880 public profiles, the quirks of the two Johns. 00:27:01.039 --> 00:27:02.660 Okay, you have to start in the People magazine 00:27:02.660 --> 00:27:05.059 thing for Linnell. That's just too good. Oh, 00:27:05.180 --> 00:27:07.380 we absolutely must. John Linnell's completely 00:27:07.380 --> 00:27:10.859 bizarre yet utterly hilarious run -in with mainstream 00:27:10.859 --> 00:27:14.019 celebrity culture back in 1998. He somehow ended 00:27:14.019 --> 00:27:16.519 up in their most beautiful people list. Not just 00:27:16.519 --> 00:27:18.980 on the list, he finished ninth. In the online 00:27:18.980 --> 00:27:21.599 poll they ran, he finished ahead of actual celebrities 00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:23.960 like Sarah Michelle Gellar. Ninth most beautiful 00:27:23.960 --> 00:27:26.660 person online. A thousand votes behind Madonna, 00:27:26.960 --> 00:27:30.339 apparently. So how did the guy who writes songs 00:27:30.339 --> 00:27:33.420 about, you know, personified thermostats react 00:27:33.420 --> 00:27:36.119 to being suddenly declared beautiful by the internet? 00:27:36.299 --> 00:27:40.059 Predictably. He seized the moment to be brilliantly 00:27:40.059 --> 00:27:43.059 analytical about it. He wrote an op -ed piece 00:27:43.059 --> 00:27:45.119 for the New York Times. Of course he did. Using 00:27:45.119 --> 00:27:47.339 his experience to critique the inherent absurdity 00:27:47.339 --> 00:27:50.119 of online celebrity voting, he pointed out... 00:27:50.380 --> 00:27:53.019 Completely deadpan that he had been soundly beaten 00:27:53.019 --> 00:27:56.140 for the number one spot by Hank the Angry Drunken 00:27:56.140 --> 00:27:58.279 Dwarf. Oh, my God. From the Howard Stern show. 00:27:58.480 --> 00:28:00.039 That's the one. So Linnell's basically saying, 00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:02.880 look at this system. That is TMBG in a nutshell, 00:28:02.980 --> 00:28:05.680 isn't it? Taking this completely bizarre lowbrow 00:28:05.680 --> 00:28:08.400 pop culture moment and turning it into high minded, 00:28:08.480 --> 00:28:10.940 self -aware social commentary. Perfectly put. 00:28:11.059 --> 00:28:13.319 He specifically questioned the whole idea of 00:28:13.319 --> 00:28:15.319 using Internet voting for like actual public 00:28:15.319 --> 00:28:17.920 officials, joking that if his experience was 00:28:17.920 --> 00:28:20.130 any guide. we might end up with, and I quote, 00:28:20.289 --> 00:28:23.970 Shecky Green running the country. It's just a 00:28:23.970 --> 00:28:26.589 perfect example of his brain applying intellectual 00:28:26.589 --> 00:28:30.250 analysis to the utterly ridiculous. While Linnell 00:28:30.250 --> 00:28:32.970 was busy skewering celebrity polls, Flansburg 00:28:32.970 --> 00:28:35.190 has generally been a bit more outwardly vocal 00:28:35.190 --> 00:28:37.950 about his own views. Yeah, he seems more comfortable 00:28:37.950 --> 00:28:40.369 being direct, considers himself politically leftist, 00:28:40.490 --> 00:28:43.869 publicly supported Bernie Sanders, less analytical 00:28:43.869 --> 00:28:46.269 distance, maybe more direct engagement. Right. 00:28:46.589 --> 00:28:48.150 And it's also worth diving into the technical 00:28:48.150 --> 00:28:50.170 side, the actual instruments they use, because 00:28:50.170 --> 00:28:52.609 that's so key to the TMBG Sonic identity. Okay. 00:28:53.170 --> 00:28:55.670 Flans brings guitars. He's left -handed, plays 00:28:55.670 --> 00:28:57.549 them upside down. Well, he plays left -handed 00:28:57.549 --> 00:29:00.170 models. He uses a range of really cool classic 00:29:00.170 --> 00:29:03.750 guitars. There's a Red Gibson ES -335, a Sonic 00:29:03.750 --> 00:29:07.349 Blue Fender Telecaster, a Candy Apple Red Fender 00:29:07.349 --> 00:29:09.869 Jazzmaster. Nice collection. But isn't there 00:29:09.869 --> 00:29:12.839 a custom one? The gold one. Ah, yes. The most 00:29:12.839 --> 00:29:16.059 fascinating one. His custom -made gold mojo guitar, 00:29:16.319 --> 00:29:19.039 known affectionately as the Chess Master. Chess 00:29:19.039 --> 00:29:22.039 Master. Why? Because he personally designed the 00:29:22.039 --> 00:29:25.299 body shape. Oh. And get this. He based the geometric 00:29:25.299 --> 00:29:28.579 shapes on the outlines of old guitar cases. What? 00:29:28.819 --> 00:29:31.160 That's amazing. That perfectly connects his Pratt 00:29:31.160 --> 00:29:33.180 Institute art degree right back to his main stage 00:29:33.180 --> 00:29:36.019 instrument. That's so Flansburg. Isn't it? And 00:29:36.019 --> 00:29:39.200 then Linnell's instrument profile is just essential. 00:29:40.650 --> 00:29:42.890 It's that constant presence of the accordion. 00:29:42.950 --> 00:29:44.730 The signature sound, really. Absolutely. Plus 00:29:44.730 --> 00:29:46.930 various keyboards, the baritone, bass saxophone, 00:29:47.029 --> 00:29:49.589 the clarinet. It's that mix that creates their 00:29:49.589 --> 00:29:52.650 distinct, almost manic, definitely anti -rock 00:29:52.650 --> 00:29:56.150 sound. That fusion of polka, jazz, rock. You 00:29:56.150 --> 00:29:58.009 know it the second you hear it. And their activity 00:29:58.009 --> 00:30:00.210 level, it's just been relentless for decades. 00:30:00.650 --> 00:30:03.269 Right. But that endurance has... required really 00:30:03.269 --> 00:30:05.650 resilience hasn't it especially recently yeah 00:30:05.650 --> 00:30:08.369 after navigating all the tour postponements and 00:30:08.369 --> 00:30:10.750 chaos from the COVID -19 pandemic like every 00:30:10.750 --> 00:30:13.710 other band they faced a really terrifying personal 00:30:13.710 --> 00:30:17.390 challenge back in 2022 the accident yeah June 00:30:17.390 --> 00:30:21.309 8th 2022 John Flansburg was in a ride share traveling 00:30:21.309 --> 00:30:23.410 home after a show and they were hit by a drunk 00:30:23.410 --> 00:30:26.569 driver Oh, God. Was it serious? It was a severe 00:30:26.569 --> 00:30:29.069 collision. He suffered several broken ribs, and 00:30:29.069 --> 00:30:31.309 apparently many of those ribs had multiple fractures. 00:30:31.450 --> 00:30:33.569 Required significant recovery time. It sounded 00:30:33.569 --> 00:30:36.130 really bad. That's incredibly scary. Just awful. 00:30:36.470 --> 00:30:39.150 It's a very close call, clearly. But the determination 00:30:39.150 --> 00:30:41.849 of the two Johns, it's just evident in how they 00:30:41.849 --> 00:30:44.170 handled it. They immediately postponed the tour 00:30:44.170 --> 00:30:46.670 dates, gave Flansburg the time he absolutely 00:30:46.670 --> 00:30:49.250 needed to recover fully. Right. And then as soon 00:30:49.250 --> 00:30:52.059 as he was able, they regrouped. and got right 00:30:52.059 --> 00:30:53.920 back to their demanding performance schedule. 00:30:54.779 --> 00:30:57.039 It just demonstrates this incredible professional 00:30:57.039 --> 00:30:59.359 toughness that really matches their longevity. 00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:02.119 Four decades and still going. It's stunning. 00:31:02.339 --> 00:31:03.960 What's the total output now? It's staggering. 00:31:04.180 --> 00:31:06.779 23 studio albums. They've sold over 4 million 00:31:06.779 --> 00:31:09.960 records. And the pace just shows no sign of stopping. 00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:12.319 Still getting recognition too, right? The recent 00:31:12.319 --> 00:31:15.920 Grammy nomination. Yeah. Their 2021 album, Book, 00:31:16.140 --> 00:31:18.779 was nominated for a Grammy just last year in 00:31:18.779 --> 00:31:22.829 2023. But not for the music. The packaging. For 00:31:22.829 --> 00:31:25.329 best boxed or special limited edition package, 00:31:25.410 --> 00:31:28.210 which just shows that even their album packaging 00:31:28.210 --> 00:31:31.210 is considered high art and innovative. Everything 00:31:31.210 --> 00:31:33.390 they do has that level of thought. Incredible. 00:31:33.869 --> 00:31:36.250 Which brings us, I think, to our final takeaway. 00:31:36.609 --> 00:31:39.329 Yeah. Wrapping it all up. Okay. So what does 00:31:39.329 --> 00:31:42.230 this all really mean? The story of They Might 00:31:42.230 --> 00:31:44.369 Be Giants is clearly not just about alternative 00:31:44.369 --> 00:31:48.369 rock history. It feels more like a comprehensive 00:31:48.369 --> 00:31:50.849 blueprint for how to have independent creative 00:31:50.849 --> 00:31:53.549 success, especially in the 21st century. I think 00:31:53.549 --> 00:31:56.410 that's exactly right. TMBG is fundamentally defined 00:31:56.410 --> 00:31:59.450 by that strategic and creative symbiosis you 00:31:59.450 --> 00:32:02.130 see between Flansburg, the organizational visionary, 00:32:02.369 --> 00:32:04.849 the promoter, the strategist, and Linnell, the 00:32:04.849 --> 00:32:07.869 meticulous, conceptual, often eccentric songwriter. 00:32:08.009 --> 00:32:10.450 Two halves of a very unique whole. Definitely. 00:32:11.019 --> 00:32:13.480 And their massive legacy really rests on two 00:32:13.480 --> 00:32:16.140 main pillars, I'd say. First, that revolutionary 00:32:16.140 --> 00:32:19.119 grassroots fan engagement they pioneered way 00:32:19.119 --> 00:32:21.809 back with the L .A. song. built their audience 00:32:21.809 --> 00:32:24.250 directly. And second, just their incredible creative 00:32:24.250 --> 00:32:26.789 adaptability, that ability to pivot successfully 00:32:26.789 --> 00:32:29.650 from being these quirky alternative rock innovators 00:32:29.650 --> 00:32:31.809 to becoming, you know, Grammy winning children's 00:32:31.809 --> 00:32:33.890 educators without ever sacrificing their core 00:32:33.890 --> 00:32:36.309 witty, intelligent identity. They're the band 00:32:36.309 --> 00:32:38.750 that could effortlessly blend these really high 00:32:38.750 --> 00:32:41.230 concept ideas like that 21 track shuffle feature 00:32:41.230 --> 00:32:43.390 on Apollo 18. Which was mind bending back then. 00:32:43.430 --> 00:32:45.910 With something as wonderfully low tech and accessible 00:32:45.910 --> 00:32:48.930 as a telephone answering machine. They just controlled 00:32:48.930 --> 00:32:51.549 their own destory by by building their own direct 00:32:51.549 --> 00:32:54.089 communication channels. Whether it's through 00:32:54.089 --> 00:32:57.789 early telephony with dial a song or early MP3 00:32:57.789 --> 00:33:00.509 distribution when no one else dared or those 00:33:00.509 --> 00:33:03.480 subscription record clubs. They always found 00:33:03.480 --> 00:33:05.460 a way around the gatekeepers. It really is a 00:33:05.460 --> 00:33:07.740 masterclass, like you said at the start. Maintaining 00:33:07.740 --> 00:33:10.099 that strong creative vision while constantly 00:33:10.099 --> 00:33:13.859 adapting to every new wave of technology or cultural 00:33:13.859 --> 00:33:16.359 shift. They've done it all, haven't they? From 00:33:16.359 --> 00:33:19.000 using cassette tapes for backing tracks to releasing 00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:22.640 the first major label MP3 -only album, from writing 00:33:22.640 --> 00:33:25.299 educational songs about science to putting out 00:33:25.299 --> 00:33:29.180 entire EPs sung in Latin. So given this relentless 00:33:29.180 --> 00:33:31.599 commitment they have to new output and their 00:33:31.599 --> 00:33:34.009 whole history of pioneering completely new ways 00:33:34.009 --> 00:33:36.470 to connect directly with listeners, ways beyond 00:33:36.470 --> 00:33:39.430 traditional streaming or even telephony. What 00:33:39.430 --> 00:33:41.849 do you think they'll pioneer next? What new medium 00:33:41.849 --> 00:33:44.690 is out there for TMBG? That's the big question, 00:33:44.750 --> 00:33:48.450 isn't it? Will we see like a TMBG album embedded 00:33:48.450 --> 00:33:51.450 directly into an augmented reality game or a 00:33:51.450 --> 00:33:53.589 song that's built into an AI prompt somehow? 00:33:53.849 --> 00:33:57.089 Who knows? With them, anything feels possible. 00:33:57.230 --> 00:34:00.420 They have proved. time and time again, that they 00:34:00.420 --> 00:34:03.000 will always find the giant hiding in the windmill. 00:34:03.220 --> 00:34:05.180 They'll find the next thing. Something for you, 00:34:05.240 --> 00:34:07.640 the listener, to definitely ponder as you maybe 00:34:07.640 --> 00:34:10.960 go back and revisit the gigantic, often hilarious, 00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:13.179 always interesting catalog of the two Johns. 00:34:13.360 --> 00:34:16.199 A worthy endeavor. Absolutely. Well, that's all 00:34:16.199 --> 00:34:17.699 the time we have for this deep dive. Thanks for 00:34:17.699 --> 00:34:19.440 joining us. Our pleasure. We'll catch you next 00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:19.639 time.